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CDP Topic: Rewards & Progression

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  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,441 Arc User
    edited February 2020

    Not sure if it has been mentioned but epic quality refinement stones (ES r5, MoP 4/5) should drop in the late game epics also. The item description on the enchanting stone says they do but they don't.



    Upgrading enchantments/runestones is an important part of character progession in Neverwinter after you get the gear that's been labeled "BiS" by the community. The level of runestones and enchantments rewarded have been increased from lockboxes so I believe it would be reasonable to allow at least the epic quality refining stones to drop at the rate of the ES6 current rate (competing with the rank 6 would likely increase the value of those)





    Personally, if I had the refining stones more often enough for an upgrade, I'd be more willing to buy wards for the attempt. These days I just often wait for 2x stones and/or Bazaar sales which stagnates (some) progression.

    so many things are devalued to the point of being free.. that's all this would do. having to grind for stuff and plan and what not is part of the game. this would make them cheap to the point of being free. why not just have them drop r15 enchantments? because if everything drops like candy ot make them that's what you're basically doing. they need to get some of the enchants and rp out of hte system imo. maybe a trade in system for enchants and rp for enchanting stones would help bring up the value of enchants and rp.


  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 583 Arc User
    edited February 2020

    @thefabricant
    Rich people problems. I have weeks of indecision trying to figure out how to balance my stats and use some BiS items.
    And every time I make an upgrade and I am able to change the gear, I must change the insignias, artifacts and so on to compensate the new stats.
    Sell the old, upgrade the new. I still have enough work to do for Avernus BiS gear until next year.

    Generally, I would agree with that - thats what we are out for, minmaxing with every mod, and of course it is harder if you cannot do it in the same way that fully maxed out and stocked up on pretty much everything players can.

    But the difference is, that you still have this one gearset that is ultimately the best, either for everything dps or for at least Tomm vs rest of the game. In other games, especially in games famous for their intense gear minmaxing (... yeah) and the likes, there is no (or the goal is that there isn't) perfect set-up. Even if you are endgame and have your HAMSTER together it is crucial that you at least read the tooltips of your armor, while in NW... not so often.
    Yeah, we have Tomm. Here it counts. But the difference is, if gear comes with as many downsides as upsides, you have to actually consider the environment you are in. You got to know what you are facing, or you try out, fail, and then you know what you have to do. There are also far more choices, simply because in NW we have the "yeah its BIS" or "yeah its trash" choice on most stuff.

    Of course, in times when a new dungeon is around the corner (for most, anyway) you might have to skip out on either a important or semi-important stat or on a bis piece (while some people can just... yeah, rich people) however, thats not really a life-or-death choice. Choosing a new piece with higher stats thats just not as awesome as the bis piece is not really that huge of an impact. Yeah, yeah, paingiver... but it won't make you miss out on runs.

    The problem I see with this, is: I start a game with items like that, so I am prepared for that. I learn to read tooltips, or I die ... I choose the right items because I was lucky and see how much easier it is. A new player on NW learns that IL grants him access to things, sees shiny vets, wants the same IL. Sees recommendations on items and thinks: yeah cool. I do not even see that anymore, but when I talk to new friends why they wear some stuff they wear ... yeah, its recommended.
    Thats a lot of change here. Implementation of a new system like some famous (or very new, -years) ARPGs is indeed huge and would also involve all outdated gear as well. (That depends, yeah.)

    When we talk about meaningful choices, we are all not talking about the same thing here, I am pretty sure (since I remember a list of items in this and another thread) @thefabricant has prime examples for this, but are those things fit for NW? And for the approach we have towards new players? (Come come, you can play everything as soon as you want!)


    I miss set bonuses.
    .
    About Boons= one can not make them less important than they are now. If nerfs are suggested to this washwater called boons better remove them from the game.
    I am deeply offended by them as it is.
    I gained them as a poor glass cannon CW, if I knew it would get to this, I would never have bothered.
    .

    Set bonuses could work interestingly, too. (Not in a old-NW-sense, but I'm not against set bonuses like that depending on class/construction, but with how streamlined classes are now..)

    About the boons, I agree.
    All you really need it for now are Masterboons (and yeah, thats Meh-ish) and that little bit of power, because power is expensive. There is not much interesting about it. I advertise it to new guild members as an IL raise, thats it.
    Post edited by jules#6770 on
    - bye bye -
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User

    As far as I understand the discussion, most casual and semi-casual players (including players that have been bis at some point, but don't have the time to remain bis currently) are ok with the fact, that they cannot obtain the best endgame gear due to time constraints. What they would like, though, and I think that is a respectable opinion as well:
    - Have alternative ways to get gear that is not bis, but close enough to bis, so that they can play through all except the hardest content the way they like (e.g. with less challenge, e.g. "dumbed down and borring in your polite words)

    Correct me if I'm missing something here but I'm going to oversimplify this.

    • Group BiS can beat ToMM and get Lionheart
    • Group NotBiS can't beat ToMM but wish they could get gear that was close to BiS gear through alternative means.

    So we're, in this case, talking about Lionheart weapons and ToMM rings.

    One can easily argue the clear alternative to BiS Lionheart weapons are the Burnished/Alabaster/Watcher weapons. All attainable through means that don't involve ToMM. All the next step down.

    People don't want weapons that are the next step down because they're already there. They're arguing for weapons that are almost identical to BiS options without being challenged.

    And as far as the rings go.

    Legendary rings are BiS.
    If you can't run ToMM the alternatives include:
    • buy them from the AH for a hefty fee (depending on which you want).
    • buy the epic version for a much cheaper and very affordable price
    • use the next step down, ebonized, etc, available through grinding

    So again, there are multiple alternatives to the BiS legendary rings that are almost as good.

    It seems to me that the game already caters to this:
    "Have alternative ways to get gear that is not bis, but close enough to bis, so that they can play through all except the hardest content the way they like"
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User

    The only reason I could see in defending a stance in keeping the hardest content in the game available for fewer people is to maintain current status quo, and I doubt that is good for the game moving forward, as the current status quo is part of what got us to start discussing how to make the game better in the first place.

    One would think the actual point of keeping the hardest content in the game hard is so people have something to work towards.

    I guess the devs didn't realize how many players would have an issue trying to improve and work towards a goal in a game where everyone could just walk through new content the first weekend.
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer
    edited February 2020

    ✪ Part 4 – Itemization Philosophy.

    Feedback Overview.

    Clearly delineate the purposes of crafted gear vs gear with unique effects vs gear with a set bonus, as well as target the general intended power level of gear vs content. Currently whenever a new piece of gear is added, it either automatically invalidates every other item on that gear slot, or it is already invalidated itself. For meaningful itemization this needs to change.

    Feedback Goal.
    • Make both crafted items and dropped items useable in the long term.
    • Make chase items more interesting and in some cases more expensive.
    • Add back an element of choice to itemization.
    • Structure rewards better, to make planning future rewards relative to content easier.
    Feedback Functionality.

    Currently, crafted gear and dropped gear compete for the same slots. Crafters are faced with the frustration that often anything they create does not persist for longer than a single module and they spend more time than not being unable to craft anything meaningful. To resolve this, I propose that items come in 3 categories, Stat sticks, Unique bonuses and set pieces.

    Stat sticks are exactly what the name describes. They are items that exist for the purposes of filling out your stats. I propose that while levelling, some basic stat sticks drop and that vendors sell some for gold when your character begins campaigns and then endgame stat sticks are crafted gear. They will provide much higher combined rating than they currently do, to help combat my proposed change to items with unique bonuses. They also will not come with any bonuses in addition to stats. Pet gear is the only item which will always be a stat stick and is the notable exception to the rule, competing with nothing for its item slot.

    Items with unique bonuses are there to help players customize their character. Currently they come in the form of items like enduring boots, which have small bonuses which are not particularly interesting and come on statted items. I propose that all items with unique bonuses come without a combined rating at all and potentially, do not have any stats on them either aside from HP and Power, which will remain unchanged from current values. What they will have however, is extremely potent bonuses, instead of the small bonuses we currently have. They drop from challenging open world content, for example hunts. The bonuses on unique items should be a horizontal progression system and new bonuses as well as old ones should aim for a certain power level then stay there.

    As a base line I recommend each item’s bonus is intended to be roughly a 5% damage increase, so at most you are using 5 of them for a 25% increase. This makes them impactful to the point a player can feel the difference between using one and not using one but maintains the same level of improvement of adding together the bonuses on all current existing pieces of gear a player may have slotted.

    Set pieces are things like the artefact weapon sets we have currently, or the artefact neck/belt/artefact set. I propose expanding this to allow for body armour sets as well, but not making them a prerequisite for the slots they currently exist on (so you can have unique weapon pieces, or stat stick weapons). The bonuses they provide should in general be stronger than a unique item bonus, with the downside that it occupies more slots. They should specialize a character in a certain direction (potentially towards that type of content), and they are only obtained from dungeons/raids.

    How I see these systems engaging with each other:
    • Game content is designed with the idea that when considering all the possible gear, the hardest content in the game available to you at any given time is completable with 70-90/95% of the obtainable stat pool. The final 5/10% should be chase items and should not be factored in to content design, as it is more for bragging rights then content completion. A very skilled player should be able to complete the content with 70% of the obtainable stats, where as a less skilled player then has some cushion room in the remaining 20/25%. This means that the first dungeon a player encounters, will require them to at minimum reach 70% of the required gear level, before being able to enter it.
    • Some of the counter stats for dungeons should be intended to be capped, for example a DpS should always cap their offensive counter stats if they are prepared for a dungeon. With the best available crafted gear, this should be possible with 5 open item slots. A player with less good items could then use more item slots to cap the ratings, in exchange for having less unique slots.
    • Once the player has capped their stats, since there is no further benefit to investing in statted items, they then choose which unique bonuses or set bonuses they want on their remaining item slots.
    • The result of this change to itemization should be the following:
    • You always want to have some crafted gear and crafted gear for every spot will hold value, since it is the best obtainable statted gear and the only deciding factor for which statted piece you use is which unique bonuses you want (in other words, you pick the statted pieces that complement your other gear choices).
    • You always want some items with unique bonuses, or some items with set bonuses as once you have capped your stats with the best available stat sticks, there is no point to equipping more of them and the only remaining way to improve your character is through investing into unique bonuses.
    • You can introduce new gear to a single item category without automatically invalidating gear in every category. For example, adding new crafted items will only potentially invalidate old crafted items. Adding new unique items should not invalidate any older unique items and the same is true for set items.
    • Item bonuses can be more meaningful, due to lower overall stat pools and only using a limited number of items with bonuses.
    • Crafting becomes a much more effective currency sink, as the gear it creates always has some demand.
    Examples of the types of bonuses I would like to see on unique or set items:

    • 3 Set bonus Neck/Belt/Artefact for a set which has no stats - Gain an additional encounter power slot.
    • Gloves or Helmet Bonus - Overloads decay twice as fast but give twice the bonus.
    • Helmet Bonus - Your encounter powers have half their current cooldowns. You cannot change your encounter powers. After using an encounter power, it is switched out with another encounter power at random.
    • Helmet Bonus - You cannot see further than 20' from your character. Deal 10% increased damage to enemies within 10'.
    • Gloves Bonus - Gain Sequence of Skill. For the First 5 seconds of combat, your At-Wills do 10% increased damage. For second 5 seconds of combat, your Encounters deal 10% increased damage. For the third 5 seconds of combat, your daily powers gain 10% increased damage. For the next 5 seconds of combat all 3 power types gain 10% increased damage. The cycle restarts after reaching the final part of the sequence. Powers currently boosted have a sparkling UI panel like when the OP Divine Barrier has critical touch active.
    • Gloves Bonus - After using 5 altering power types (for example, encounter, at will, encounter, at will, encounter) your next used power will deal double damage. Dealing double damage or breaking the sequence resets the counter.
    • Boots Bonus - All feats are allocated but grant 55% of their full value.
    • Gloves Bonus - Your at wills no longer generate Action Points. Your dailies have their Action Point cost cut in half.

    As you can see, these bonuses are much more impactful, both to performance and to character gameplay than current item bonuses.

    Risks and Concerns.
    • Cannot be done in a single change, it modifies too many aspects off itemization at once.
    • Necessitates that all older items become obsolete.
    • Necessitates that players properly understand the counter stats system, otherwise it is very easy for them to equip too many items with unique bonuses and end up with a character that is not functional.
    • Requires that items with unique bonuses are balanced very carefully, to prevent players from all using the same items.
    • Requires rebalancing the amount of Counter stats on all items and rebalancing the number of counter stats all enemies have.
    This is a little too detailed/definitive for me to really comment on currently (This isn't your fault). Let me explain why. We are currently working on elements of CDP 1and therefore we will use this particular post along with others to help inform our decisions.

    Edit: Actually in re-reading your post this is something I will come back to in Phase 2 of this CDP.

    Thanks

    Chris
    Post edited by cwhitesidedev#9752 on
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    ✪ Part 5 – Crafting.

    Feedback Overview.

    Make crafting a more satisfying process long term, which both rewards players who craft and players who collect resources.

    Feedback Goal.
    • Make gathering of resources rewarding to both new players and endgame players.
    • Make crafting rewarding long term.
    • Hopefully, make farming resources unreasonable to do for bots.
    • Make the gathering of resources more interesting and less of a chore.
    Feedback Functionality.

    I have linked this before, so I won’t write it all out again, just link to it again.


    Risks and Concerns.
    • Development resource requirements are high.
    • Needs to be carefully balanced so that players have incentive to push for harder content, whilst still being rewarding enough for those who cannot progress there.
    I agree with all the goals here. Just dev time and priority as you say.

    Chris
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    ✪ Part 6 – Chase Items.

    Feedback Overview.

    Improve the design for chase items, both through crafting which currently has no chase items and through item drops.

    Feedback Goal.
    • Ensure that the hunting of chase items is a fun process and not a frustrating one.
    • Provide incentive to go after chase items.
    • In some areas, add an element of risk and reward for the creation of chase items.
    • Allow for the revitalization of old items.
    Feedback Functionality.

    Whilst the M17 implementation of chase items is good, it is possible to do it better, especially in the implementation of crafted chase items which Neverwinter has never really had. Here are (in my opinion) some important rules.
    • Chase items should not be gated behind drop RNG unless they are also unbound. Going after items like Shadowstalker rings is frustrating, not fun. ToMM rings are an excellent implementation.
    • Chase items should not be rewarded from levelling content and should be adequately challenging in contrast to the reward. A bad example of a Chase item is the new pet gear, which should in my opinion have the +4/+5 variant added to the watcher bosses loot tables because currently there is no challenge in farming it, just frustration.
    • Content should not be balanced around chase items, that is not their purpose. They exist as, “the item to have” and should be difficult to obtain and good enough to justify bragging about.
    • Chase items can be gated behind crafting RNG in some cases, provided it is done well.
    In terms of adding crafted chase items, I recommend doing this in 2 ways. The first is adding a new crafting process which allows you to craft extra bonuses onto an item, but with the drawback of incredible risks involved and opportunity costs. The resource cost to do so would be low (about 100k AD), but the outcomes would not be guaranteed and would work as follows:
    • The outcome of crafting would outright delete the item 25% of the time.
    • The outcome of crafting would lock disable enchantment slots for this item.
    • Nothing happens 25% of the time (the item remains the same).
    • A random bonus is picked from a table of bonuses available on that item slot 25% of the time.
    After attempting to craft an item in this manner, you may not attempt to craft on that item again. It is a once off attempt. After attempting such a craft, the item will be bound as well. This has the advantage that it allows you to cheaply try and craft one of these bonuses onto an item which has no value if you want the bonus, but there is a massive opportunity cost on trying to craft it onto BiS gear. As a result of this it can easily revitalize old pieces of gear if a player gets a bonus, they want on it and because this is random, creates some diversity in gear usage. It also gives the players with lots of currency a currency sink, as they chase after the perfect bonus on the perfect item.

    Additionally, every item should have an extra set of unlockable stats on them, using cubes of augmentation. The base value would be 1000 with a max value of 3000 on each piece, allowing players to roll on them. This acts as a significant AD sink for players who want to min max but, provided is not accounted for in general content design (assume the minimum value of 1000), has no impact on endgame.

    The second method is through adding very long recipe chains which require hard to obtain items, to craft chase pieces of gear. This would be equivalent to a harder version of masterwork.

    Risks and Concerns.
    • If the crafting system is not explained adequately, players may delete items that are valuable to them without intending to. Huge potential for backlash.
    • Items need to be balanced very carefully. The same is true for the mods in the random table.
    • There needs to be enough mods to make getting the bonus you want a difficult process.
    • There needs to be chase items appealing to every class.
    Before I comment on this one are you talking about chase items just in regard to end-game or for players at different milestone phases in their progression. I don't disagree that earning chase items should be an actual experience (Memorable) but I worry you are talking about one sub set of the player base here. There are areas for example in the game with huge divides in terms of bridges to achieve current milestones, rights of pass age and related chase items.

    The details you gave here will be used as examples of achieving the overall goals you layout above.

    Chris
  • jobelo71#5623 jobelo71 Member Posts: 7 Arc User

    ✪ Part 3 – Campaigns as optional content.

    Feedback Overview.

    Old campaigns have the problem that, for the most part, once you have the boons you have no reason to go back to them. In addition to that however, they also have the problem that until you do have the boons you feel compelled to run them.

    Feedback Goal.
    • Provide a reason to run old campaigns after obtaining the boons, without feeling compelled to do so.
    • Provide a reason for new players to run campaigns.
    • Make campaigns feel optional and fun, rather than compulsory activities.
    Feedback Functionality.

    The way I would resolve this issue is by adding new rewards to campaign daily quests after a player has completed the campaign. These rewards would either be in the form of RP, RAD or materials used for guild upgrades. The purpose of this is twofold, one to incentivize a player to run through this content and keep it relevant post its sell by date and the second is to provide an upgrade path to new players.

    In addition to this, with the changes to itemization proposed in the next post, campaign specific items like hunt items should remain useful for much longer, so players may have a reason to want to farm them long after the campaign’s lifetime.

    Risks and Concerns.
    • Campaigns become too rewarding if not balanced properly.



    The modules are a story that has an end.
    Let's say that each MOD is vertical content.
    The way you make the MOD area more relevant is by adding horizontal activities.

    They're already adding Legacy campaign quest that lets you review the old MOD.
    They did an AI acquisition campaign which is more of a horizontal MOD

    I see that the following activities have potential horizontal activities.

    1. Stronghold (ex: the barovia needs help and asks your guild to strengthen its position ...)

    2.Crafts (e.g. create a gathering quest for yourself and pick up flowers in Sharandar

    3.Event (ex: holloween is generally done in the protector enclave, why not in chult)

    4. Heroic encounter (ex: create a heroic level, a heroic farm encounter to be the best heroe of the feywild) (on another note, please put less CC in HE, its not fun)

    finally, create horizontal activities to make the old content area relevant. But the story of the campaign when it's done, it's done.
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer
    edited February 2020

    ✪ Part 7 – Slots in Items.

    Feedback Overview.

    This is not directly related to rewards and progression, but it goes hand in hand with streamlining by making it more convenient to use multiple items, thus actually promoting item choice. The current slot system for enchantments is antiquated and can be greatly improved.

    Feedback Goal.
    • Make it easier to swap between items.
    • Make the user interface for changing enchantments more friendly.
    • Make the user interface helpful for colour blind people.
    Feedback Functionality.
    • Remove slots from items, instead embed them into the UI. Changing items changes the type of slots available or enables/disables slots. For example, if you have a radiant enchantment slotted in an offensive slot and you switch to an item with a defensive slot in that area, it swaps the effect from offensive to defensive.
    • If an item is not slotted, the slots are disabled for that piece.
    • Its recommended with this system, to remove the gold cost from unsocketing enchantments, however, if keeping the gold cost is considered important, then it is recommended to add the ability to “consume gold in advance” for moving enchantments around so that it can be done with loadouts so long as the gold has already been spent.
    • Add symbols for the slots indicating what they are, so people who are colour blind can tell at a glance.
    • Reduce the number of clicks involved in unsocketing and resocketing enchantments.
    Here is an example of how I think it should work:



    Note, this is my mockup attempt at designing something like this and I expect a proper UI artist could make something much better. The point is to illustrate that it can be done better.


    Risks and Concerns.
    • Removing the gold cost for swapping enchantments may remove an important gold sink.
    • If the new system is not immediately intuitive, it could confuse people.
    Note, there are additional risks present specifically in how I designed it, for example, if you want to design items with variable socket numbers (more than 3) the design gets in the way of that. I am sure someone who knows more about UI design can come up with a better design to overcome these kinds of issues though.

    ✪ Part 8 – Potential Implementation and Conclusion.

    Bringing the above walls of text back into grounded reality, I thought I would conclude by ranking this feedback in terms of what I consider to be my personal priority for it.
    • Boons – A Priority, since it is one of the easiest systems to overhaul and likely has one of the bigger impacts out of the changes I suggested.
    • Itemization – A priority. It has the largest potential positive impact going forward, but it is also one of the hardest changes to implement.
    • Professions changes – B priority. Whilst a system overhaul as I proposed would be nice to have, it is not necessary, and the current system is functional. Furthermore, the investment required to achieve this is colossal compared to the reward.
    • Chase Items – B Priority. These items only impact a small portion of the player base and whilst important, improving itemization for the entire player base is a far larger concern.
    • Enchantment Slot Redesign – C priority. Although it is a huge QoL improvement, I don’t feel it is immediately required to improve rewards.
    The boons issue is likely the one which could be tackled first and likely could be entirely implemented in a single module, so I won’t mention how I would potentially consider implementing that. The itemization change however, is huge and would probably have to be planned for across several modules. The easiest way to go about it would likely to start introducing new hunt items with these kinds of bonuses and then with the next professions overhaul, introduce a set of levelling gear as well as endgame professions gear to support them better. The hunt items would see very limited use at first before the professions update, due to requiring extreme stat bloat to fit them into your build, but some people would still be able to make use of them.

    Anyhow, essay over. Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings.
    Good goals and food for thought in regard to stream lining and extra bonus points for putting in your priorities and related reasoning.

    Looking forward to continuing the conversation with you throughout this CDP and the many more to follow. Really good work.

    Chris
    Post edited by cwhitesidedev#9752 on
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 353 Arc User
    edited February 2020

    ✪ Part 3 – Campaigns as optional content.

    Feedback Overview.

    Old campaigns have the problem that, for the most part, once you have the boons you have no reason to go back to them. In addition to that however, they also have the problem that until you do have the boons you feel compelled to run them.

    Feedback Goal.
    • Provide a reason to run old campaigns after obtaining the boons, without feeling compelled to do so.
    • Provide a reason for new players to run campaigns.
    • Make campaigns feel optional and fun, rather than compulsory activities.
    Feedback Functionality.

    The way I would resolve this issue is by adding new rewards to campaign daily quests after a player has completed the campaign. These rewards would either be in the form of RP, RAD or materials used for guild upgrades. The purpose of this is twofold, one to incentivize a player to run through this content and keep it relevant post its sell by date and the second is to provide an upgrade path to new players.

    In addition to this, with the changes to itemization proposed in the next post, campaign specific items like hunt items should remain useful for much longer, so players may have a reason to want to farm them long after the campaign’s lifetime.

    Risks and Concerns.
    • Campaigns become too rewarding if not balanced properly.
    By the way, on this topic, I need to mention the Dread Ring campaign that pretty consistently is able to provide reason for significance over years and still does. But the most important part that it did not need some artificial tweak, but was ergonomically integrated into the campaign.

    Also, a more important risk is missing: Requiring the players to daily engage with 10+ different campaign can easily be hostile or overwhelming to newer players, so even moderately rewarding daily grind can stack up harshly and alienate them. Alsoalso, the Dread Ring solved this by requiring very minimal effort and letting you stack the keys and to be prepared for the double stones event. Or how the black ice overload enchantments always good enough, but it's tied to Heroic Encounters, not quests, so people can engage them when and how much they want.
    That is a good point, there are some ways you could mitigate this though. For example, if you only gained rewards for the first 2 campaigns you did the dailies for of your choice. The dailies would provide a large bonus so there would be immediate benefit. This would have the following advantages:
    • Players would not suffer from fatigue from being forced to run many campaigns.
    • Players can choose which campaigns they want to run to get their rewards.
    • The reward amounts do not grow disproportionately out of control as the amount of campaigns increase.
    • The rewards could be more immediate and be bigger as they are fewer, thus feel more rewarding when you do them.
    However, there are also the following downsides:
    • Players cannot binge run a campaign in the style of dread ring for rewards, if they wish to as this fixes how rewarding campaigns are in general.
    • Players will probably run only 2 specific campaigns which are the most time efficient and many campaigns will be ignored.
    An alternate way to solve the problem is that instead of immediately getting dailies, each day you get a token for each campaign provided you at least log in. These tokens stack up over time and have no upper stack limit. When you want to run the dailies, you redeem them at a vendor for that merchant which will then give you that campaign's dailies. Those dailies will then give you the rewards.

    This has the following advantages:
    • It allows players to choose when they want to run campaigns.
    • Players do not feel like they are "losing out" or that they are leaving money on the table if they do not run dailies on that day, since they can redeem that token to run them later.
    • It allows people to binge run campaigns, dread ring style like now.
    However, it has the following downsides:
    • Still has the potential for campaign burnout, but this is heavily mitigated by the fact that you can choose when you want to run campaigns.
    • It still has the "reward creep" which exists in a system where every campaign is rewarding but you keep adding more campaigns.
    Sorry for the late answer, tried to read other replies and drained my energy. Because I think the Dread Ring formula works pretty well, I'd at least try to scale it into other campaigns, before trying to figure out new ways.

    Feedback Overview: Cornerstones, reagent into the campaigns.
    Feedback Goal: Give Something to farm and use/sell on AH and make the campaigns relevant.
    Feedback Functionality:
    So, I gave the game away before the overview, but the benefit of the Dread Ring system is that it rewards refer to very specific parts of the progression. Mostly when you are crafting an artifact into legendary or higher and an enchantment into Rank 12. You are not pulled in weekly to grind it, but you get 1 free chance per day to get it and that chance also makes up your reserves for the 2x event.

    Or, at the moment the icewind dale is a good source for the overload enchantments that are good for sale or for ToMM, which is at the very end of the progression tree.

    So if the players are objective and cost efficient about their character progression (which is quite a big assumption), they will get pushed into the Dread ring more clearly when they need to rank their enchantments up to 12 and they generally don't get overwhelmed with campaigns as not much other reagent is needed, at least from a campaign.

    So, while it of course cannot work in the way to tie a campaign reagent to every single level of enchantment, the Rank 15 is pretty underutilized in that spot, which was strange as on Rank 14, it was pretty clearly understood that tying an additional reagent can be useful for community engagement (even though it was tied to endgame content at the times and it went from like a million into where it is today). But the point is, there is a lot of unused potential and if it's "mathed out well", it won't burden the players, because they would need to engage with the campaigns anyway and if a certain point of character progression pushes you into 1-2 specific campaign, players will have a general guidance through the contents.

    And the enchantments clearly need some rework anyway as almost all non-radiant option sell below the cost of making it and some Rank 9 just sells below their comparative RP value.

    Also, just on Sharandar, bump up the RP stone values of the quests.

    Risks & Concerns:

    Well, some risk was mentioned as it needs to be calculated properly, but also that I left 95% of the work on the team, because they will need to figure out to even how to reintegrate the campaign rewards and how well it would go with the tons of campaign currencies lying around in player inventories.

    I also don't really have too much idea on how to, but I'd probably go companion tokens from Sybella quests into a campaign in the same way. They are not even good value picks now with the increased token size of the Zen packs. And I'm kind of out of ideas in how to necessitate certain campaigns and there are more than 10 of them.

    I also referred to a fix without it makes only half-sense to try and tie the campaigns into enchantments. And I think there will be need for better player guidance to make sure the players just don't tries to get ALL the campaigns done and burn out. I don't want to get campaigns locked as the boon are essential (and if my new character would be tied to SOMI, I might quit).
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 583 Arc User

    @jules I understood the implications the first time and I said that I do not want -interesting- items but interesting content that gives me the item of my dreams.

    So, after you are done with a dungeon and have the item of your dreams, you go play another game? That means you are done, right?

    Current issues are so relevant because we don't have anything to do aside grind (new(er) content) to allow minmaxing to allow running a dungeon that comes out whenever, and because seemingly we have to make that even easier so new players have faster access. We do not reenter old zones, because they are not relevent enough (= because they do not offer drops relevant to minmax for next dungeon). We farm 100k RAD using the fastest method possible to be able to buy items to minmax better.
    What we need is better, healthier methods to grind that are encouraging everybody to find their way again, like everybody used to have. You do not ultimately have to create new content to satisfy everybody at the same time (over time you would have to) if you can offer them more choices on finding their niche in economy.

    This is why abandoning professions because of time-management-issues (to be able to make content to satisfy more people) is like shooting yourself in the leg.
    - bye bye -
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    I'd like to focus on a very important point raised by @thefabricant on part 6: bound items should absolutely not depend entirely on RNG.

    Feedback Overview:
    Important Bound on Pickup items/gear should always have at least one way to be obtained deterministically (i.e. not depending luck)

    Feedback Goal:
    Reduce frustration caused by bad luck, always rewarding players with some progress after they complete some piece of content

    Feedback Functionality:
    All content that has a chance to drop bound gear or other useful bound items should also have a system tied to it where players can get the same items deterministically. Many different approaches can be taken to create such a system, like:

    - Currency/store approach: completing the content will always grant players a certain currency and, if you didn't get your desired item by luck, you can use your collected currency to buy it. This approach already exists in-game for the Lionheart (ToMM) Weapons.

    - Quest approach: completing the content will always grant players progress in a repeatable quest that can be taken at will. After completing the content a certain number of times, you'll complete the quest and will receive a choice pack where you can choose the item you desire. This approach already exists in a limited way in-game in the Stardock yellow quest "The Teachings of Zerthimon", where you can select a piece of companion gear after completing a certain number of Fragment Expeditions. This implementation is not ideal because it does not include every item and can only be done once.

    - Restoration approach: completing the content will always grant players a specific "restoration material". If players don't get the desired item by luck, they will be able to buy a "broken" version of it by a small amount of gold, AD or another existing currency. The desired item will then be obtained by "restoring" the broken version with a certain amount of the "restoration material". Restoring gear is a very common system in this game, but I don't think it was ever used for this purpose.

    Other approaches may be used as well, as long as the result stays the same: a clear, guaranteed way to farm for a desired item.

    Why does this matter? It's extremely frustrating to do the same thing over and over, hoping for a lucky drop, and feeling like no progress was made at all when RNG doesn't favor you. With systems like this in place, players always get some progress done and won't feel their efforts were completely wasted.

    Risks & Concerns:
    The "currency/store" approach will make the "Neverwinter has too many currencies" problem worse and must be used with moderation.

    Thanks for taking the time to post Carlos. Not much more than for me to say that I agree (-: I think RNG has its place but I also thing we should be fostering compulsion loops and ensuring there are appropriate bridges between them.

    Chris
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer
    krumple01 said:

    This topic I have been waiting for and I have a lot to say on this topic but I don't know where to start. I also just want to say, there are no bullet points this time because I want to express my experience to make my points on these topics. So if I sound salty, or attacking, it is just the frustration I have behind these experiences.

    A1. First I suppose I want to get this idea out of the way. Why should a character that has spent a lot of time, astral diamonds or even money on progression, to have all that effort and success taken a way?

    My main character is a Cleric and if I run Lomm on my Devout build, I can actually do significant damage to the monsters. Even though technically the Devout build isn't meant to deal damage, it can. But if I run Cragmire Crypts, my damage goes to basically nothing even thought this dungeon is so old, I shouldn't be reduced to nothing. You have stripped the fun out of progression or any progression by stripping the character running older content. It becomes frustrating because show me a point where scaling isn't being drastically used? Pretty much anything that isn't the new mod is being scaled. Why? Bring back progression and remove scaling, its not fun to be artificially nerfed in content that doesn't give any reward other than some rough AD.

    A2. To go along the same lines, during mod 16 and 17 running Lomm I collected a few pieces of gear and ran it over 200 times, so I know it well. But now in mod 18 my character is scaled in Lomm. Why? What was the point in making the effort to obtain items to only be reduced and capped out now? The dungeons when they are scaled become convoluted, so you remove all the stats that make the character feel strong in favor of the player running content that is harder for less reward. Because it is less reward now but its harder to actually run it now. How does that make any sense?

    B. And then rewards. First I think refinement point gems should be removed from all the end chests. We get so much refinement points, 90% of the current rewards are nothing other than refinement points. I have so many refinement points I have over 5 million backlog of refinement points. Yet get so much tossed at me, its no longer a reward. It just seems like a cheap way to make the player feel like they are being given something. So many items from end chests just go straight to refinement points, armor pieces that I don't want or need. Put something more meaningful in the reward chests in the dungeons.

    On a side note I also think refinement gems should be removed from Lock boxes. I think its also just filler and since I already get thousands of refinement point in game, why would I want to open a lock box that is going to give me 99 times out of 100 nothing more than refinement points.

    I don't think I am alone in these thoughts and perhaps they aren't well thought out and mostly wanted to use personal experience to make my points. I am frustrated by these things and yet I feel like I am the type of player to put up with a lot of stuff, I can only imagine how the rest of the player base feels about these things.

    But as far as rewards go, I think the idea for me comes from the idea that 90% of the items in the game are obsolete, outdated or there is a better alternative. Yet the only thing we can do with these items we don't want is to turn them into refinement points.
    It
    1. One idea is to convert all these unwanted items into the current mods seals. They don't need to be a lot, maybe 5 newest seals per item sacrificed.

    2. Another idea is to allow all the outdated or obsolete items to be brought up to the current mods range. So you can introduce some way of infusing power into these items which bring them up to be relevant. There can be multiple stages to this process which require a simi rare drop. Similar to how we exalted weapons from the Chult campaign, but instead of just making them upgraded once, they can be brought up to compete with current mod items.

    So any artifact weapon of the past and any armor sets from campaigns in the past can all be brought up to current stats. Something like this would actually give older outdated items have some value or worth obtaining.

    3. Also when using rerolls in reward chests, some times or actually many times I have this experience where I press the button to reroll but nothing actually changes. It makes me think for a second that I'm lagging. But after 4 more rerolls I realize nope, I wasn't lagging. I wouldn't even bring this up if it only happened to me once or twice but its pretty much every time I go into a dungeon it will happen. I honestly can't believe that the loot table is so limited that my odds of rerolling the same exact reward as previous would happen that often. I think this is either a bug, or there is some metric behind the scene where it's used to spend up rerolls without actually providing any actual "chance" at better rewards.



    Hi Krumple,

    Many thanks for your post and for your insight on the streams. Comments below:

    A1: Agreed and working on this in regard to streamlining.
    A2: Agreed and working on scaling.
    A2b: There is certainly a point in player progression where refinement points are over saturated. There are also points where it can feel like a drought. Also working on this in regard to streamlining.
    Items are garbage: I get your point but this is a very broad statement and whilst it may apply 100% to you it isn't necessarily the case in regard to other players at different points in their progression and milestones. This said this is part of the reason we are having the CDP. We have been discussing points 1 and 2. Point 3 happens to me as well. I will check but I am pretty sure this isn't a bug. Will get back to you.

    Thanks

    Chris
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer
    rjc9000 said:

    Part 3 – Campaigns as optional content.

    Feedback Overview.

    Old campaigns have the problem that, for the most part, once you have the boons you have no reason to go back to them. In addition to that however, they also have the problem that until you do have the boons you feel compelled to run them.

    Feedback Goal.

    • Provide a reason to run old campaigns after obtaining the boons, without feeling compelled to do so.
    • Provide a reason for new players to run campaigns.
    • Make campaigns feel optional and fun, rather than compulsory activities.

    Feedback Functionality.

    The way I would resolve this issue is by adding new rewards to campaign daily quests after a player has completed the campaign. These rewards would either be in the form of RP, RAD or materials used for guild upgrades. The purpose of this is twofold, one to incentivize a player to run through this content and keep it relevant post its sell by date and the second is to provide an upgrade path to new players.
    In addition to this, with the changes to itemization proposed in the next post, campaign specific items like hunt items should remain useful for much longer, so players may have a reason to want to farm them long after the campaign’s lifetime.

    Risks and Concerns.

    • Campaigns become too rewarding if not balanced properly.

    To piggyback off Sharp's idea of overhauling campaign rewards: what if classes could unlocked a third paragon path by completing a campaign task for it and said paragon path is based around that campaign's theme?

    Overview

    Old campaigns are generally not "that" impactful, and there is a sentiment that boons are generally there as "something for more stat points" and not something that decides your character. A new subclass could add these game defining attributes, such as a DPS path for Paladin.

    So I was thinking: why not add in some more paragon paths to campaigns?

    Goals

    • To provide a reason to run old campaign content, even if you dislike the boons offered.
    • To expand extra subclass options/playstyles that some people have been clamoring for.

    Functionality

    Essentially, take a 5e subclass (or any prior edition subclass/class) and make its access only available through completing a campaign task from a themed campaign. Some concessions will have to be made translating the subclass to NW, such as the subclass not quite matching the 5e/original edition class.

    One example would be an upcoming pirate/Zorro themed module that might be set to release. A Rogue Tank path based around timing parries and finesse could be christened as the Swashbuckler and its access be given as a campaign task in this pirate/Zorro flavored campaign.

    Another example could be giving the Fighter a magic/melee paragon spec, the Eldritch Knight, from doing Stardock. The reasoning for this would be because the gith have the famous "gish" term that denotes a warrior that has decent proficiency in magic. For the people who want to be immersed in the story, the idea is that the Fighter characters learn the secrets of the paragon path from the gith in story, which is why it's locked to Stardock.

    The goal behind adding these paths would be to expand options for classes (ex: Paladin DPS paragon tied to Sybella/3rd Eye campaign) or add in new playstyles (ex: a magic Barbarian spec based around magic runes, the Rune Knight, tied to Storm King's Thunder) that attempts to balance new ideas with reusing code to help cut down on programming time.

    Risks and Concerns

    • The biggest one: time used to develop these new paragon paths/reuse assets or animations takes away development time from doing more important things like solving game breaking issues, or developing new module content.
    • The game's programming flat out won't allow you to add an extra paragon path.
    • The paragon path being a case of a "if you have this reward, you've proven you don't need it" for your average NW player that doesn't grind all day.

      An example would be giving a Paladin DPS paragon, but if the campaign task is tied to is Avernus rather than an easier campaign like the 3rd Eye intro Campaign. The reason this is a problem is because Avernus is supposed to be a difficult campaign that isn't intended to be done immediately, whereas giving Paladin players a DPS spec should be done in an early campaign so Paladins can use that DPS spec for easier soloing in other campaigns.

    • Class balance/imbalance issues (you guys really should consider a CDP on this one ...)
    • The issue of "why should I bother running this campaign if the boons suck and if the subclass isn't for my current class" still remains.
    • Some fans are mad that their favorite subclass wasn't represented "properly" from the tabletop game to NW.
    Hi RJC,

    Thanks a lot for your post. As mentioned in my reply to Fabricant I do see boons as something that could be used for alternate advancement just not sure more sub classes is a high priority at the moment vs continued work on current classes and sub classes. This said we will be using this as another example/viewpoint when discussing boons as they relate to progression and rewards.

    Chris
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 400 Arc User
    I would have preferred if Lion heart set was as difficult as Halaster's Blast Scepter to get, or even more difficult instead of dropping every TOMM run. The initial grind would then be hectic but then players running TOMM would overall benefit from selling the weapon set. Nothing wrong with giving choice to players, but ofcourse the set would have to be hefty in price.

    You could easily make the initial grind less painful by selling other classe's sets that you get through RNG on AH and buying the ones you want. Buying the weapon set using scrolls would then have to be removed to not undermine this process but the point still remains, if you make gear/item unique to a dungeon/trial, making it unbound will result in more profit for the challenger who completes it. Also, we would have to set aside our ego for this cause.
  • redrockls3redrockls3 Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    @cwhitesidedev#9752

    I've seen you use the term Alternate Advancement on more than one occasion. Are you looking towards a system similar to what EverQuest used? If so, I'm not upset at all. That was a great system but, don't make it so that all of our overlow exp goes into that system just so we can make some sort of meaningful progress in it. Otherwise, it's a great system in my opinion.
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer
    hoverist said:

    Masterwork Profession

    First of all, I would like to Express my desire to see things for companions in the new crafting. Things must be either analogous to things from expeditions(1010 level) or better quality. Different variations of things with different stats and slots for stones.

    The range of crafting can be expanded, for example, with consumables of all types. You can list them, starting with leaflets from the Tower of the Mad Mage, ending with signs for improving things. About tablets: make a likeness of omuan tale carving, but for crafting things. For example, there was a major update, where new armor was introduced. And with the help of these tale carving, you can raise the level of a thing to the actual one.

    Also very concerned about the relevance of crafting - will it become useless again in a short period of time?

    Very important, as for me, is the relevance of resources collected from maps. For example, in all previous crafts, we encountered the fact that Gold Ore was needed everywhere in large quantities, while Molybdenum was almost never used in subsequent crafts. I would like to see the absence of "unnecessary" resources when collecting from maps.

    Moving away from the theme of crafting, but closely related to it - is guild marks. 30k is a very small limit for full-fledged crafting, sometimes this amount may not be enough for even one thing, not to mention a set. This restriction does not give someone a great advantage, but it brings great inconvenience. This is also caused by the fact that players from high-level guilds have nowhere to put resources to convert them to guild marks. I propose to put some merchant who could exchange one campaign currency(for example, the tyranny of dragons) for coupons for gems for the Guild(with the preservation of proporia marks). You can also enter some Guild buildings that would allow high-level guilds to get rid of the limit in Mimic, but were also useful for the entire Guild as a whole.

    Hi Hoverist,

    We are working toward making crafting more relevant and complete as a system. A number of folks have mentioned rewards, material rewiring as it relates to player experience, campaigns, zones, rewards, compulsion loops, progression and so on.

    Chris
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    FEEDBACK CONTENT: dungeon loot rewards

    FEEDBACK GOAL: dungeon and item system of neverwinter



    Me and my mates/friends don't admire the loot/reward system of neverwinter. Let's start with the standing of a "DUNGEON" (or trial, skirmish,...):



    Usually dungeons are a very specific thing. They are hard challenges and some highlights of the game. So it should be like "I am doing the whole week my dailys and prepare my equip to run at the weekend a dungeon with my friends". But in Neverwinter dungeons are the daily content. To get the main currency to improve the equipment we have to run dungeons (in random queues) every day. So they are nothing special anymore. And they are pretty easy. So what to do after the daily dungeons? Nothing. Because the old dungeons are easy and boring (because of running them every day). Why should I run FBI after my daily routine? There are no rewards and no fun.



    So let's come back to the topic (rewards). There should be hard mode versions of dungeons. Different levels. Like "epic" or "mythic". These should be as hard as the new contents normal mode. And finishing them should bring some nice rewards. So that new items are not only available in the new map. So I could say "Let's run FBI mythic because the boots I want can drop there" (boss Loot or chest Loot). So that the Bis items should be farmed in different dungeons. Buying them with seals or running expeditions to get them is pretty boring compared to pretty hard dungeons. And I like the "system" of the Shadowstalker Rings (example). There are different rarities. +1, +2,..., +5. Introducing that for all items would be a nice way. Each version of a gear piece can be found in a different location. For example: the "blabla Boots" +1 can be optained in the new campaigns hunts (like Barovia hunts - they were quite funny). +2 I can get in the new dungeon (normal mode). +3 can drop in epic FBI. +4 in epic LoMM and +5 in mythic LOL. So I can get these boots pretty easy. But getting them in a better version will force me to run old dungeons in epic or mythic version, which are pretty hard. If my guild or group is not strong enough to finish mythic LOL, we try epic FBI to get these boots.



    I hope you understand what I wanted to say, because my English is not that great for long texts. That's why I worked with so many examples.

    Thanks Dema for a well constructed and easy to understand post. I totally agree in regard to dungeons. In CDP 1 we talked about different tiered dungeons and tiered rewards. We are working toward this currently as well as discussing rewards rewiring across content and systems as part of this CDP.

    Chris
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 923 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    First of all, sorry engilish is not my prime language, so gramar or spelling mistakes may happens(or not).

    I have opitions about various parts, (realated to reawards), so I will split my post in parts(do not expect same style as fabricant did, I have no time for it.

    Now also need to note one major thing> These are mine feedbacks and opinions, if you don't like them, sorry, but this post is not meant to please some or specific group of players.


    This CPD is with intention to make game great, not build game arround or for specific group of players..



    I have feedback about few things, so I will split them in groups.

    1) Invocation
    Overview
    Invocation system need rework, update or even complete overhaul.

    Goal:
    Make invocation account wide and provide decent rewards for players who play this game.



    Functionality::
    Need to make so invocation would be counted account wide, so players would not have to keep switching between alts, just for invocations.
    Also, need so invication time would be counted when player are in game. That's mean, when you actually play game not just log ing, invoke>> go play other mmo.
    And most important items obtained via invoke should be account bound.

    The reason is that, due current system, lot of players created large group of alts( invoke hordes). I know about 7 players who have over 200 alts across multiple accounts.
    The main reason there are such invoke hordies is that, players try get few things from invocations. preservation and coalescent ward are one of most aimed items.

    When you check AH< you can see one account and sell like 30+ stack of x99 preservation wards. Bots are bad for mmo games, but this invoke hordes also make bad for this game.

    Gmae should reward players who actually play this game.



    Risks & Concerns::

    1) players with massive invoke hordes will be mad(literally).
    2) poor implementation may lead to explotation.
    3) due requirement to stay in game, may lead to increase of bot usage, which would require system which would monitor(log) players bahaviour in safe spots( protector enclave, or easy/low lv areas).

    Neverwinter online had issuese's with bots before, the reason why there are none or least noticible is not due that security become better. The reason is that most players who used them have left game. So obviously with invoke rework would require hardcore system testing from bots, otherwise game become bot fiesta.

    =================================================================================================================================

    2) Reward/loot table
    Overview
    General reward is simply full of leftovers from previous mods, which are outdated and poluting reward system.

    Goal:
    Clean up reward/loot table from outated/irrelevant items, make drop/loot table more reasonable.


    Functionality::
    Current reward/loot table is one massive list of items and you have Random chance to gain them. Which most of time lead to frustration due receiving irrelevant and even illogical item.
    As good example, we have Fangbreaker Island(mod 10) and Spellplague Caverns(mod 12) dungeons. When I complete them I receive Elven Armor gear parts are reward.
    Now Elven Armor where introduced in mod 6, which brings question why it's still in loot table. Even in mod 10 it where way outdated, and in current mod 18 it's like ancient relict from long long forgotten adventures.

    Campaing areas should drop items realated to that campaing only. No other items from other campaings.
    Also, need improve rewards in old campaings, so it would be worth to visit them. ( AS example quest, to slay x enemies while affeacted by debuff, which work k-team system(hardcore mode + heavy downscale)).


    Now reward in general.

    Gear parts -
    Common(white) - From lv 1 to lv 80(all) should be removed from drop table, migrated to Protectors enclave market area. Most of these items goes to vendors/traders for few coins of copper/silver anyways. Better reward player with more gold than with item which he either throw away or sell to first met vendor for few coins of copper.
    Uncommon(green) - bottom line reward - you gain them in open world areas, from lv 1 to lv 80 or campaing areas.
    Rare(blue) - these ones gain from elite/specific monsters/sub boss. Or leveling or quest realated dungeons.
    Epic - From epic dungeon or hunts(chult/barovia/Undermountain expeditions) with certain chances.

    Mounts/companion/arteafacts

    The chance of obtain mount/companion/artefacts I leave for staff to decide, I think there need to talk about their qualities/ranks.

    When you hit that chance of obtaining, either mount/companion or arteacts.
    Drop rates depend on mount quality and are where you hunt,


    Open world: leveling/campaing areas.
    Common(white) - chance ~ 65% ( just mount and companions).
    Uncommon(green)- chance ~25%
    Rare(Blue ) - Chance ~10%.
    Epic(purple) ~0% ( there should not be epic quality in open world)
    ===========================

    Sub dungen(level up dungeon).
    Common(white) - chance ~ 45% ( just mount and companions).
    Uncommon(green)- chance ~35%
    Rare(Blue ) - Chance ~15%.
    Epic(purple) ~5%

    ===========================================
    Sub dungen(campaing realated sub dungeons( example dread ring forge of death)
    Common(white) - chance ~ 25% ( just mount and companions).
    Uncommon(green)- chance ~45%
    Rare(Blue ) - Chance ~20%.
    Epic(purple) ~10%

    ===========================================
    Hunts:
    Common(white) - chance ~ 25% ( just mount and companions).
    Uncommon(green)- chance ~45%
    Rare(Blue ) - Chance ~20%.
    Epic(purple) ~10%

    Note: for hunts need reevaluate so harder/higher tear hunts would grant higher chances.

    ===========================================
    Epic dungeon.
    Common(white) - chance ~ 10% ( just mount and companions).
    Uncommon(green)- chance ~25%
    Rare(Blue ) - Chance ~45%.
    Epic(purple) ~20%


    Note: whole system is that, higher tear content should increase chance to get higher quality reward.
    even if you get lucky to obtain artefact, it's frustrating to get uncommon rank of old artefacts.

    Also, need to remind, this is just example how I think reward system should go..




    By reducing quantity of not needed/irrelevant items from reward tables in specific situation, we improve chance to get better rewards. Also by changing chances of obtain higher quality item in old campaing dungeons, it make more reason to vsit them.

    I think dread ring campaing and it's sub dungeons system we can use as base/example. You get one free key daily, for others, you must farm/do quests in that campaing area and buy from vendor.

    This would make reason for players visist old campaings and farm mounts/companions/arteacts. Also some extra elements could be addded, to make hunts/farms more interesting.

    Risks & Concerns::

    This will require to take current reward/loot table, and check from a to z. Reevaluate items, which ones to keep and which ones move away.
    Rework old campaigns, so it would have similar system as Dread ring campaing do have with it's keys and sub dungeon.

    And I assume it would take lot of time(realy a lot of time).

    And as always,, poor implementation would lead to bad outcome..

    For now I think it's enough.


    Once again sorry for my bad engliish. Also if I left some confusion, just send me message and I will try explain more properly.


    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    @cwhitesidedev#9752

    I've seen you use the term Alternate Advancement on more than one occasion. Are you looking towards a system similar to what EverQuest used? If so, I'm not upset at all. That was a great system but, don't make it so that all of our overlow exp goes into that system just so we can make some sort of meaningful progress in it. Otherwise, it's a great system in my opinion.

    Yes (-:
  • skrewfaz3d#1482 skrewfaz3d Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    > @thefiresidecat said:
    > (Quote)
    > so many things are devalued to the point of being free.. that's all this would do. having to grind for stuff and plan and what not is part of the game. this would make them cheap to the point of being free. why not just have them drop r15 enchantments? because if everything drops like candy ot make them that's what you're basically doing. they need to get some of the enchants and rp out of hte system imo. maybe a trade in system for enchants and rp for enchanting stones would help bring up the value of enchants and rp.

    Drop like candy? R6's don't drop *that* often.. I didn't say they should drop like the rp gems. That's a candy drop.(& R15 enchants wouldn't promote a need for wards though.) If you include 3 items at the r6 level, those drop odds go down. You don't get all 4, you get 1 of the 4. (So then maybe don't include the r5 enchanting stones) Which then increases the value/need for the legendary versions (rank 6/7) which cost even more and have lesser chances of being upgraded.

    Rank 6 enchanting stones are going at a rate of 17k and rank 5's are going at a rate of 31k (PS4 AH). That doesn't seem backwards to you I guess?
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 236 Arc User


    The reason is that, due current system, lot of players created large group of alts( invoke hordes). I know about 7 players who have over 200 alts across multiple accounts.
    The main reason there are such invoke hordies is that, players try get few things from invocations. preservation and coalescent ward are one of most aimed items.

    When you check AH< you can see one account and sell like 30+ stack of x99 preservation wards. Bots are bad for mmo games, but this invoke hordes also make bad for this game.

    Wards from invocation are already bound to account. Most of the wards you see in AH come from the Zen market, not from invoking in hundreds of alts.


    As good example, we have Fangbreaker Island(mod 10) and Spellplague Caverns(mod 12) dungeons. When I complete them I receive Elven Armor gear parts are reward.
    Now Elven Armor where introduced in mod 6, which brings question why it's still in loot table. Even in mod 10 it where way outdated, and in current mod 18 it's like ancient relict from long long forgotten adventures.

    Many players want to get old items for transmute reasons. I farmed the Life-forged weapon (River District) for my Cleric because all other Cleric weapons look terrible IMO. If items are removed from the loot tables, I hope devs remember to add another ways to get them.
  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User


    Correct me if I'm missing something here but I'm going to oversimplify this.

    • Group BiS can beat ToMM and get Lionheart
    • Group NotBiS can't beat ToMM but wish they could get gear that was close to BiS gear through alternative means.

    So we're, in this case, talking about Lionheart weapons and ToMM rings.

    One can easily argue the clear alternative to BiS Lionheart weapons are the Burnished/Alabaster/Watcher weapons. All attainable through means that don't involve ToMM. All the next step down.

    People don't want weapons that are the next step down because they're already there. They're arguing for weapons that are almost identical to BiS options without being challenged.

    Not really missing anything but Burnished were 4 weeks of farming LoMM, Alabaster endless weeks of praying to RNG Jesus (until they increased the drop rates significantly), Mountaineer was in a pack of 5k Zen or so and Watcher needs a lot of grinding and RNG too. I'd even say it's harder to get Watcher set then Lionheart...

    "Group NotBiS" needs something to improve so better weapons would be the obvious choice. "Group BiS" also currently don't have much to work for, up the stats and grab the new set from Citadel which you only really need in Citadel...

    Progression curve is completely messed up currently.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    edited February 2020


    Correct me if I'm missing something here but I'm going to oversimplify this.

    • Group BiS can beat ToMM and get Lionheart
    • Group NotBiS can't beat ToMM but wish they could get gear that was close to BiS gear through alternative means.

    So we're, in this case, talking about Lionheart weapons and ToMM rings.

    One can easily argue the clear alternative to BiS Lionheart weapons are the Burnished/Alabaster/Watcher weapons. All attainable through means that don't involve ToMM. All the next step down.

    People don't want weapons that are the next step down because they're already there. They're arguing for weapons that are almost identical to BiS options without being challenged.

    Not really missing anything but Burnished were 4 weeks of farming LoMM, Alabaster endless weeks of praying to RNG Jesus (until they increased the drop rates significantly), Mountaineer was in a pack of 5k Zen or so and Watcher needs a lot of grinding and RNG too. I'd even say it's harder to get Watcher set then Lionheart...

    "Group NotBiS" needs something to improve so better weapons would be the obvious choice. "Group BiS" also currently don't have much to work for, up the stats and grab the new set from Citadel which you only really need in Citadel...

    Progression curve is completely messed up currently.
    At some point, there was a group that was able to beat ToMM without the weapons. Clearly that means the weapons are not needed to beat tomm. There is an element of "get good" in there somewhere. I also know for a fact that there are some very not BiS groups running ToMM at this moment and doing just fine. And much respect to those groups, I know that they spent months practicing and failing to learn the fight, so that they could do it.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,441 Arc User
    edited February 2020

    > @thefiresidecat said:

    > (Quote)

    > so many things are devalued to the point of being free.. that's all this would do. having to grind for stuff and plan and what not is part of the game. this would make them cheap to the point of being free. why not just have them drop r15 enchantments? because if everything drops like candy ot make them that's what you're basically doing. they need to get some of the enchants and rp out of hte system imo. maybe a trade in system for enchants and rp for enchanting stones would help bring up the value of enchants and rp.



    Drop like candy? R6's don't drop *that* often.. I didn't say they should drop like the rp gems. That's a candy drop.(& R15 enchants wouldn't promote a need for wards though.) If you include 3 items at the r6 level, those drop odds go down. You don't get all 4, you get 1 of the 4. (So then maybe don't include the r5 enchanting stones) Which then increases the value/need for the legendary versions (rank 6/7) which cost even more and have lesser chances of being upgraded.



    Rank 6 enchanting stones are going at a rate of 17k and rank 5's are going at a rate of 31k (PS4 AH). That doesn't seem backwards to you I guess?

    R6 drops in Tong, codg and lomm.. devalued to the point of being free. R5's are from a lockbox and drop in a few places in the game that are less often done (pretty much gated). so no it doesn't seem backwards. it proves my point. it was fine when tong and codg were difficult content. but now that they are not they are very easy and quick to farm. r6 should probably be taken out of tong codg and lomm and only put in the newest content.


  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    They also increased the drop rates a while after T9 launched. If not they would still be higher.

    At some point, there was a group that was able to beat ToMM without the weapons. Clearly that means the weapons are not needed to beat tomm. There is an element of "get good" in there somewhere. I also know for a fact that there are some very not BiS groups running ToMM at this moment and doing just fine. And much respect to those groups, I know that they spent months practicing and failing to learn the fight, so that they could do it.

    Cool. I just wouldn't gatekeep an item like that by a trial without offering another decent option. Once you get it you basically proved you don't need it. They had better solutions in the past including Mod 16 where each set had an advantage over the other. Mod 18 could have added a new set, maybe a worse one, but maybe also situationally bis. Wouldn't take away the achievement of beating ToMM.
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer

    First of all, sorry engilish is not my prime language, so gramar or spelling mistakes may happens(or not).

    I have opitions about various parts, (realated to reawards), so I will split my post in parts(do not expect same style as fabricant did, I have no time for it.

    Now also need to note one major thing> These are mine feedbacks and opinions, if you don't like them, sorry, but this post is not meant to please some or specific group of players.


    This CPD is with intention to make game great, not build game arround or for specific group of players..



    I have feedback about few things, so I will split them in groups.

    1) Invocation
    Overview
    Invocation system need rework, update or even complete overhaul.

    Goal:
    Make invocation account wide and provide decent rewards for players who play this game.



    Functionality::
    Need to make so invocation would be counted account wide, so players would not have to keep switching between alts, just for invocations.
    Also, need so invication time would be counted when player are in game. That's mean, when you actually play game not just log ing, invoke>> go play other mmo.
    And most important items obtained via invoke should be account bound.

    The reason is that, due current system, lot of players created large group of alts( invoke hordes). I know about 7 players who have over 200 alts across multiple accounts.
    The main reason there are such invoke hordies is that, players try get few things from invocations. preservation and coalescent ward are one of most aimed items.

    When you check AH< you can see one account and sell like 30+ stack of x99 preservation wards. Bots are bad for mmo games, but this invoke hordes also make bad for this game.

    Gmae should reward players who actually play this game.



    Risks & Concerns::

    1) players with massive invoke hordes will be mad(literally).
    2) poor implementation may lead to explotation.
    3) due requirement to stay in game, may lead to increase of bot usage, which would require system which would monitor(log) players bahaviour in safe spots( protector enclave, or easy/low lv areas).

    Neverwinter online had issuese's with bots before, the reason why there are none or least noticible is not due that security become better. The reason is that most players who used them have left game. So obviously with invoke rework would require hardcore system testing from bots, otherwise game become bot fiesta.

    =================================================================================================================================

    2) Reward/loot table
    Overview
    General reward is simply full of leftovers from previous mods, which are outdated and poluting reward system.

    Goal:
    Clean up reward/loot table from outated/irrelevant items, make drop/loot table more reasonable.


    Functionality::
    Current reward/loot table is one massive list of items and you have Random chance to gain them. Which most of time lead to frustration due receiving irrelevant and even illogical item.
    As good example, we have Fangbreaker Island(mod 10) and Spellplague Caverns(mod 12) dungeons. When I complete them I receive Elven Armor gear parts are reward.
    Now Elven Armor where introduced in mod 6, which brings question why it's still in loot table. Even in mod 10 it where way outdated, and in current mod 18 it's like ancient relict from long long forgotten adventures.

    Campaing areas should drop items realated to that campaing only. No other items from other campaings.
    Also, need improve rewards in old campaings, so it would be worth to visit them. ( AS example quest, to slay x enemies while affeacted by debuff, which work k-team system(hardcore mode + heavy downscale)).


    Now reward in general.

    Gear parts -
    Common(white) - From lv 1 to lv 80(all) should be removed from drop table, migrated to Protectors enclave market area. Most of these items goes to vendors/traders for few coins of copper/silver anyways. Better reward player with more gold than with item which he either throw away or sell to first met vendor for few coins of copper.
    Uncommon(green) - bottom line reward - you gain them in open world areas, from lv 1 to lv 80 or campaing areas.
    Rare(blue) - these ones gain from elite/specific monsters/sub boss. Or leveling or quest realated dungeons.
    Epic - From epic dungeon or hunts(chult/barovia/Undermountain expeditions) with certain chances.

    Mounts/companion/arteafacts

    The chance of obtain mount/companion/artefacts I leave for staff to decide, I think there need to talk about their qualities/ranks.

    When you hit that chance of obtaining, either mount/companion or arteacts.
    Drop rates depend on mount quality and are where you hunt,


    Open world: leveling/campaing areas.
    Common(white) - chance ~ 65% ( just mount and companions).
    Uncommon(green)- chance ~25%
    Rare(Blue ) - Chance ~10%.
    Epic(purple) ~0% ( there should not be epic quality in open world)
    ===========================

    Sub dungen(level up dungeon).
    Common(white) - chance ~ 45% ( just mount and companions).
    Uncommon(green)- chance ~35%
    Rare(Blue ) - Chance ~15%.
    Epic(purple) ~5%

    ===========================================
    Sub dungen(campaing realated sub dungeons( example dread ring forge of death)
    Common(white) - chance ~ 25% ( just mount and companions).
    Uncommon(green)- chance ~45%
    Rare(Blue ) - Chance ~20%.
    Epic(purple) ~10%

    ===========================================
    Hunts:
    Common(white) - chance ~ 25% ( just mount and companions).
    Uncommon(green)- chance ~45%
    Rare(Blue ) - Chance ~20%.
    Epic(purple) ~10%

    Note: for hunts need reevaluate so harder/higher tear hunts would grant higher chances.

    ===========================================
    Epic dungeon.
    Common(white) - chance ~ 10% ( just mount and companions).
    Uncommon(green)- chance ~25%
    Rare(Blue ) - Chance ~45%.
    Epic(purple) ~20%


    Note: whole system is that, higher tear content should increase chance to get higher quality reward.
    even if you get lucky to obtain artefact, it's frustrating to get uncommon rank of old artefacts.

    Also, need to remind, this is just example how I think reward system should go..




    By reducing quantity of not needed/irrelevant items from reward tables in specific situation, we improve chance to get better rewards. Also by changing chances of obtain higher quality item in old campaing dungeons, it make more reason to vsit them.

    I think dread ring campaing and it's sub dungeons system we can use as base/example. You get one free key daily, for others, you must farm/do quests in that campaing area and buy from vendor.

    This would make reason for players visist old campaings and farm mounts/companions/arteacts. Also some extra elements could be addded, to make hunts/farms more interesting.

    Risks & Concerns::

    This will require to take current reward/loot table, and check from a to z. Reevaluate items, which ones to keep and which ones move away.
    Rework old campaigns, so it would have similar system as Dread ring campaing do have with it's keys and sub dungeon.

    And I assume it would take lot of time(realy a lot of time).

    And as always,, poor implementation would lead to bad outcome..

    For now I think it's enough.


    Once again sorry for my bad engliish. Also if I left some confusion, just send me message and I will try explain more properly.


    Really interesting post. Thanks Hades.

    Chris
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