CDP Topic: VIP

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  • zero#4717
    zero#4717 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    Hello, y'all. I'm a huge fan of KiSS... Keeping HAMSTER Simple. On average, the simpler something is, the fairer it is, as well. My response is based on this philosophy.

    Rate of Keys: Keep it as 1 key/account/day. As for increased odds, make it simple. For example, a Leg Mount would have a 1/365 chance of being rewarded from a lock box. Therefore, if you log in every day for a year, the odds are you get your Leg Mount. Other items could be don in a similar fashion. Some could be 1/7 for an average of once per week, and 1/30 for an average of once a month.

    Alternatives to Keys: No thank you. There are too many currencies in this game to begin with. It's just 1 more item to keep track of.

    Reroll Tokens; I'm fine with them the way they are.

    Ranks: I value the ranking system for the simple fact that I believe things should be earned. It makes you appreciate it more. A day 1 VIP shouldn't necessarily have the same benefits as someone who's been playing for years.

    Current Benefits: 1) Sign Post; running to a travel gate is a time suck. 2) Seal Vendor; that [email protected] overflow bag! It's nice to have a way to sell items anywhere. 3) Bank Portal; I run 3 characters. It's nice to easily swap out my bonding & empowered runestones quickly. Also, overflow! I can drop items in the bank that I don't want to sell or refine. 4) Invoking anywhere; it's just convenient. 5) No injuries; I don't think I have to explain this. However, I wouldn't mind seeing this go away, as long as healers had the ability to heal injuries. 6) Wonderous Bazar discount; again, I don't have to explain this. 7) Mail Box; Meh... I don't use it that often, but when I do it's convenient.

    New Benefits; 1) I like the idea of increasing the Astral Diamond cap, but I think it should be linked to VIP Rank. For example, Rank 1 caps at 101,000. Rank 12 caps at 112,000. At least, something of the sort. 2) One Workshop/account; This doesn't have to be a VIP benefit, but a standard for all players. All characters on your account would effectively be "business partners". They would share all artisans. Trying to rank up a Workshop, for multiple characters is boring, and a time suck. NOBODY says "Hey, I wanna log into a game, and work on my blacksmithing!". We wanna log in and kill some pixels. 3) Change the Teleport to Moonstone Mask; what good is that for? I can see having a teleport to Protectors Enclave as a Rank 1 benefit, for new players, but give those players an option, as too where they go in PE. For example, Teleport to Harper Broward, Sybella, Knox, or whatever.

    Auction House; Who cares if someone undercuts. It's called capitalism. If someone sells something cheaper than someone else, it's the buyers benefit. What do I do? I look for the cheapest item, just like everyone else.

    I'd like to thank you for inviting us to state our opinions on this matter, and thank you for your time in reading our opinions. I know it's impossible to please 100% of the people 100% of the time. Hopefully you can please most of the people most of the time. Have a great day.

    Moderator edit: Profanity filter evasion fixed.
    Post edited by kreatyve on
  • quickfoot#7851
    quickfoot#7851 Member Posts: 488 Arc User

    @quickfoot another concern is it would devalue the leg mounts in the ah. and it would devalue lockboxes. many of us have well over the amount of tbs you list. it would have to be a HUGE amount of tb to make sense. like 20000 or something.

    Increasing odds on lockboxes and putting leg mounts in the zen store also devalues leg mounts. I think 20,000 TB's might be at the extreme end of a high price. I'm just saying to take the avarage number of tradebars per lockbox, include tb jackpot odds, multiply by average number of lockboxes to get a leg drop, and then multiply that by 1.5 or 2, maybe even 2.5 to 3 since there are other goodies in lockboxes, and you'd end up at a fair price in tb's, whatever that number is.

    Things change in markets all the time, it happens irl, and it happens in mmo's, things become super expensive (alpha compy maxed out at 30+ mil at one point on pc) and things lose value and become near worthless like a lot of old artifacts. It's a fact of life.

  • groo#6243
    groo#6243 Member Posts: 98 Arc User
    "Ranks: I value the ranking system for the simple fact that I believe things should be earned. It makes you appreciate it more. A day 1 VIP shouldn't necessarily have the same benefits as someone who's been playing for years."

    The only comment I would make on this is that it already happens in-game anyway.

    Just as an example, pre-mod 14, I spent some time earning and saving up AD and kitting all my alts out with mastercraft armour. Then mod 14 dropped and suddenly you could get the Vistany gear absolutely free, several items of which were better that the stuff I'd been working hard for. Instantly negated the effort and AD that I'd worked for. At the end of the day, it was what it was.

    Same could be said for the game in general. If you were F2P only and had spent years grinding campaigns etc, etc to get to end game, BiS. That wouldn't stop someone else coming along, dropping a load of cash and getting to the same place in just a few weeks.

    I get that it's frustrating to work/wait for something when someone else can just stroll in and get it straight away. Equally, if you already have max level VIP, does it really matter to you when others get it?

    You could equally argue that you put effort and time into getting to rank 12 only for it to be instantly taken away if you don't renew VIP.
  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    @zero I agree with most of what you said but the one workshop idea is kind of bad for some of us who mastercraft. or those that like to farm certain materials across many toons. Like rn I'm preparing for the gond event by crafting low level stuff across many alts. i couldn't do that if it were a one workshop.

    I have master crafting 1 on a few toons and all the ranks on my main. that way I can supply myself easier with some free daily morale. under normal circumstances mastercrafting is expensive enough to rank up where that wouldn't have made sense. but because there is no money in mc rn it's pretty cheap to level.

    I like the idea of a universal supply chest though where all your stuff is merged so you don't have to move things between toons if you want one toon to work on something that another toon has the supplies for. if they did a universal workshop they would have to add ways to increase your daily morale to compensate. and to compensate you for the toons you have it on.
  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited January 2020

    @quickfoot another concern is it would devalue the leg mounts in the ah. and it would devalue lockboxes. many of us have well over the amount of tbs you list. it would have to be a HUGE amount of tb to make sense. like 20000 or something.

    Increasing odds on lockboxes and putting leg mounts in the zen store also devalues leg mounts. I think 20,000 TB's might be at the extreme end of a high price. I'm just saying to take the avarage number of tradebars per lockbox, include tb jackpot odds, multiply by average number of lockboxes to get a leg drop, and then multiply that by 1.5 or 2, maybe even 2.5 to 3 since there are other goodies in lockboxes, and you'd end up at a fair price in tb's, whatever that number is.

    Things change in markets all the time, it happens irl, and it happens in mmo's, things become super expensive (alpha compy maxed out at 30+ mil at one point on pc) and things lose value and become near worthless like a lot of old artifacts. It's a fact of life.
    putting it in the zen store for 3 days with non bis mounts doesn't really hurt the economy at all. it's limited kind of like a big key sale. it lowers it for a little while but it comes back up. you're talking about something permanent that many of us already could afford right out of the gate. it would be bad. increasing the odds is bad imo. leg mounts are kind of like zen and ad imo. they are a pretty solid set of expensive currency. I can't speak for prices on pc but on xbox they have been solid at about 6mil to 8 mil for at least a year maybe longer. that's a guaranteed range. they are a set currency that currently is a safe trading guide post. the other safe currencies are coalwards and most enchanting stones. they stay pretty stable in price. disrupting that disrupts the fabric of spacetime.

    the only way it would make sense is if they only put in the HAMSTER leggo mounts that no one wants. frogs and hellfire engines.


    IN GENERAL: @cwhitesidedev#9752

    the drawback with this store idea as originally posted and in a lot of the comment replies, is that even if bound to account if they had a lot of things like people are mentioning from rare comps to mounts and legendary items and even wards and what not, this would have the potential to replace the ah as the place to get things, driving already low demand down and driving inflation. and the vast majority of people would STILL Not be giving cryptic more real life cash money for it. even if we got less keys Cryptic wouldn't seen an uptick in key sales because while it's a fun and enjoyable part of vip it's not replacing key popping fun. if I didn't have it i would be sad but I wouldn't be like omg i need keys. Because the lockboxes are just bad right now and aren't worth it. and if the lockboxes were worth while, it still wouldn't effect key sales because the people that like popping a ton of lockboxes would be buying them regardless. I know I used to. the daily key was 1 key a day. that is not nearly enough if you want to pop some boxes.

    if you can just buy everything by logging in every day what need is there to run dungeons? buy and sell on the ah, or to do anything. There are potentially big ripple effects from changing anything along these lines from the current model. the game and economy is not in a good place right now. it's fragile. changing anything like this BEFORE changing other parts of the game could equal disaster in the ecosystem.

    especially as there are a lot of other unexplored lower harm ways for cryptic to make money than messing with something that isn't broken and is not contributing to any bad effects of the economy.

    1. get rid of the current lockbox model. go back to the old style with packs. in the short term take rp and jewel enchantments out of the new lockboxes. this would make them more worth opening. right now the average roll is worth about 6k and the cost per key is about 94k on pc and 70k on xbox. so the value needs to be a lot better than it is now before ppl will pay for them again. this is not about the grand prize.. this is about bread and butter.
    2. add things to the store. retire things too. this creates demand and worth. the vast majority of the store is ancient and everyone has what they want long ago.
    3. do more sales that are straight up off the zen store. last time you did one with the leg insignia packs everyone I know bought one. but it could have been advertised better. I'm a forum junkie and I still didn't know about the sale until someone told me about it in alliance chat. didn't see any notification in game didn't notice anything on the forum about it.


    4. do deep discount flash sales. that last short amounts of time. with little warning. somewhat regularly. even like a 6 hour sale. this will encourage people to log in more regularly and when it does hit ppl will be more likely to bring out the credit cards. like 40 or 50 percent off.
    5. create things to sell that have perceived value for the money.
    6. add a transmute section to the store
    7. update vip sure, take nothing but keep it qol instead of things. once something is added to a service that many pay actual money for that becomes contractual in our heads.



    Post edited by thefiresidecat on
  • lordaeolos
    lordaeolos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    hastur905 said:

    Feedback Overview
    Create a VIP store, change some of the benefits to account bound rather character bound, streamline and increase accessibility and usability of the VIP program.

    Feedback Goal
    Add choices and value for those that currently have VIP on what services they want, increase value for potentially new VIP players and allow people to customize their VIP experience to meet their needs over time. Increase visibility of the benefits of VIP.

    Feedback Functionality
    Daily login to account credits each VIP member with a currency, this currency can only be claimed on one character, but is usable account wide. This currency can be used to make purchases from the VIP store. The store would contain Lockbox Keys, reroll tokens, Potions, Gold, different packs that contain all available varieties of companions, mounts, insignia, enchantments(weapon, armour etc), runestones. Basically everything in the game. These items when purchased are BoA. This means that you log in once on a character to claim your currency once per day. You decide how you wish to spend that currency and when you want to run dungeons, want 20 rerolls, go for it. Going to do some crafting, need gold? Cash in some currency for gold, you are set. Need that best in slot purple or green companion buy it. Need your first Legendary mount its here. Obviously the amount of “currency” given each day and the cost of the different options needs to be worked out, but that is why the idea of “a token” does not add enough flexibility.
    QOL items should all remain, some of the suggestions that have been proposed like switching loadouts out of combat anywhere that others have suggested is a good addition. I feel any QOL items just add value to VIP. Extra space for professions, Vanity pets, transmutes would be examples of adding additional value that currently are not monetized and would offer QOL choices for those that have an interest in those areas.

    Risks and Concerns
    Finding the proper amount of currency issued each day, as well as the pricing of items in the VIP store that it makes sense. Also conversion of old assets like unused lockbox keys and reroll tokens and potions to the new system of “currency”.


    In this post I am not specifically addressing the trade bar store (second chance vendor for lockboxes), but as discussed with Lord Willow on stream, the “VIP” vendor should basically be the same vendor, but rather than receiving tradebars, opening lockboxes would give some currency back to be used in this store, this also allows non-vip players who purchase keys to accumulate “VIP” currency as well.

    Right.. For an example:

    This could be a new "Super Store" that is a merge of VIP, Tradebars, Wondrous Bizarre and Invoking currency.

    Again for example:
    1. So say you log in collect your VIP reward (once per account) and you would get say 103 tokens, and 3 token on each additional character (token would be bound to character)

    2. Tarm trade bars would count for 1 token each

    3. Each day you could earn 4 extra tokens from doing a full 6 rounds of invoking

    4. Add a seasonal Zen market item "Buy Super Store Tokens"

    5. Add ability to buy tokens with AD

    6. True up the cost of Lockbox keys in the Zen market to the Key value from VIP

    Then the costs could look like (only examples, this would need to be balance out, point is that you could still get 1 key per day, or something else):
    - Lockbox key: 100 Tokens
    - chest reroll: 1 token
    - Legendary mount: 35,000 tokens
    - Epic mount: 1,000 tokens
    - Marks of Potency: tbd
    - Transmute item: 50 tokens
    - Potions (wild storm elixir etc): 20 tokens
    - Pres ward: 10 tokens
    - coal ward: 2000 tokens
    - Any other pack items available in previous lockboxes: tbd

    The only real hitch I see here, is that there should be a way for folks to convert/ move trade bars prior to implementation

    Doing a store like this would give folks that want the daily risk factor something, while also giving those risk adverse some things to build towards, as well as simplify the whole system.

    I think that most of the store purchased items should be unbound (with noted exception for Keys and Leg mounts)
    "Lord Willow"
    Guild Leader: Mistaken Identity (formerly Midnight Express)
    My Twitch Stream
    See my Youtube Channel for guides and more


    "Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
  • methuselas
    methuselas Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited January 2020



    Right.. For an example:

    This could be a new "Super Store" that is a merge of VIP, Tradebars, Wondrous Bizarre and Invoking currency.

    Again for example:
    1. So say you log in collect your VIP reward (once per account) and you would get say 103 tokens, and 3 token on each additional character (token would be bound to character)

    2. Tarm trade bars would count for 1 token each

    3. Each day you could earn 4 extra tokens from doing a full 6 rounds of invoking

    4. Add a seasonal Zen market item "Buy Super Store Tokens"

    5. Add ability to buy tokens with AD

    6. True up the cost of Lockbox keys in the Zen market to the Key value from VIP

    Then the costs could look like (only examples, this would need to be balance out, point is that you could still get 1 key per day, or something else):
    - Lockbox key: 100 Tokens
    - chest reroll: 1 token
    - Legendary mount: 35,000 tokens
    - Epic mount: 1,000 tokens
    - Marks of Potency: tbd
    - Transmute item: 50 tokens
    - Potions (wild storm elixir etc): 20 tokens
    - Pres ward: 10 tokens
    - coal ward: 2000 tokens
    - Any other pack items available in previous lockboxes: tbd

    The only real hitch I see here, is that there should be a way for folks to convert/ move trade bars prior to implementation

    Doing a store like this would give folks that want the daily risk factor something, while also giving those risk adverse some things to build towards, as well as simplify the whole system.

    I think that most of the store purchased items should be unbound (with noted exception for Keys and Leg mounts)


    Now this, is feasible and everything I've been trying to say about why a complete overhaul of Stores/Rewards is a priority over anything, other than exploits and game breaking bugs. I would go a step further and say with older dungeon content, instead of dropping all the old rewards that nobody wants now or going through the trouble of creating new loot tables, it were to drop these "Super Store" tokens. Then, it doesn't devalue VIP and it also allows non-VIPers to "reap the rewards", but realize that WITH VIP they can earn more. It's a win-win for everyone and it kills two birds with one stone.

    Right now, I don't see a problem with VIP. What I *DO* see a problem with is what's available for purchase. In the PE alone, there are 4 vendors that sell junk items and have been the same since Beta (2013). Ironically, I doubt anyone has ever purchased anything from them. When I first started playing in Beta, nobody could afford anything in these stores and by the time they could, you had already progressed beyond the use of said items. Even for new characters, these vendors are redundant. You can get better items from the Bounty Hunter's in each Zone and none of that equipment requires gold.

    We really only need 3 Stores: Zen Market, AD Store and "Super Store." This "Super Store" needs to be identical to the AD Store and when one is updated (which should happen periodically), so should the other and each uses it's own currency: AD or "Super Store" tokens. The Zen Store holds special items, like high-end Companions, Mounts, Services, Race Packs etc, but a player receives 1 "Super Store" token per 100 Zen purchased. The Zen Store needs to hold stuff that you just "have to have", but prices need to be lowered. Things like Mounts need to be less that the cost of a decent game.

    VIP players have access to all three. Non-VIP have access to two, UNLESS they're running dungeons to get "Super Store" tokens or are buying Zen. VIP gets an added bonus with the AD Store discount.

    Things like MoPs, Pres & Coal Wards SHOULD be BtA, however for every store EXCEPT the Zen Market. Keep in mind that all the Whales, Billionaires and Gold Sellers not only have millions, if not billions of AD, they've got thousands of other currencies just waiting to be spent. Instead of worrying about "AD sinks", focus on how to cripple exploitation of AD hoarding, grinds and bugs. BtA Wards, MoPs etc are useful for a player like me, who has 10 toons and enjoys the majority of them, but wants to make sure each one has R15 Enchants, Legendary Insignias, etc. BtA means less revenue for 3rd Party Gold Sellers, as they can no longer sell those items for a cash profit. Eventually, they run out or they're forced to buy Zen on the Zax, which gives their AD to players looking for AD to spend. If they have a market to buy these items in AD, to where it "disappears" from the economy, the amount of AD in the game lessens and the economy stabilizes.

    All of this will have a cascade effect. It allows people to go and get their needed items either by purchasing Zen, using "Super Store" tokens or through the AD market and if absolutely necessary, the Auction House. If I have a choice of buying a Bound Coal for 637,500 AD from the AD Store (using my VIP discount) or using my "Super Store" tokens, as opposed to waiting 5 weeks for the Zen exchange or paying 700,000 AD for an unbound one off the AH, I'm gonna buy the Account Bound one. That AD automatically disappears from the economy, the item has limited use (purchaser) and doesn't upset economic balance.

    Unbound items will eventually dry up and will become so expensive to purchase on the AH, the sellers will have no choice to lower their prices to "get rid" of them or risk losing money, as people would rather either use the ZaX to buy one or just purchase Zen outright to get one AND get their "Super Store" tokens. Sure, Whales and 3rd-Party Gold Sellers can still get Zen through the ZaX, but those "Super Store" tokens have little value to them, as they're not there and the AD Store sells bound items they want to sell for either AD or real Money. The MoPs are bound, the Legendary Mounts are bound, the Wards are bound. They're forced to use them, themselves, which they can and will, but it completely destroys their market base for the items they'll primarily sell.

    I could write up a whole pitch on this, what to sell, what not to sell, how to sell it, how to control price, etc and you could hand it off to Upper Management. I'm telling you, Chris, this is the way to go, it will make everyone happy and will help increase revenue.





  • ukbeef
    ukbeef Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    Awesome response ^^ I agree totally, I also have over 10 toons, BtA is the answer.
  • littlevc
    littlevc Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    Lets all face reality and agree that neither Cryptic nor the Developers/Coders of Neverwinter give a rats-furry-butt about anything other than making more $$$$$.
    They do NOT listen to the players that report issues.
    They do NOT fix the issues that are reported (unless it gets them more $$$$).

    Proof of the above statements:
    There has been NO crafting of gear (head, arms, boots, and armor) for a Ranger between the levels of 21 through 51 since they changed the crafting system.
    This has been reported SEVERAL times.
    Is it fixed? NO.

    They do NOT care about their players, they just want to make money.

    Proof of the above statement:
    Upon the release of Module 16, half the population of the game left. Cryptic and the Developers have done NOTHING AT ALL to try to bring the lost players back, nor to prevent other players from leaving the game. They have just been releasing bugged out mod after bugged out mod, WITHOUT fixing the underlying issues and reported problems.
  • methuselas
    methuselas Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    littlevc said:

    Lets all face reality and agree that neither Cryptic nor the Developers/Coders of Neverwinter give a rats-furry-butt about anything other than making more $$$$$.
    They do NOT listen to the players that report issues.
    They do NOT fix the issues that are reported (unless it gets them more $$$$).

    What? They're a business. They're in the game development industry to MAKE money. Neverwinter is a D&D license from WoTC. If Cryptic weren't making money to pay those licensing fees, WoTC doesn't get paid and pulls the license. Let's try and remain positive here. I'm giving Chris the benefit of the doubt, even though he knows from my posts that I won't hold back and will be most critical of topics. He hasn't been with the company long enough to have made lasting changes already, but you should give him the same benefit. Especially if you like and enjoy this game.
    Proof of the above statements:
    There has been NO crafting of gear (head, arms, boots, and armor) for a Ranger between the levels of 21 through 51 since they changed the crafting system.
    This has been reported SEVERAL times.
    Is it fixed? NO.
    Rogues and Rangers use the same gear. I did check, however, and Rangers do not have gear and the gear is set specifically for Rogues. Honestly, though, most of the craftable gear isn't much better, if at all, than the stuff that you can buy from the Bounty Hunters or find in-game. While I'm not saying this is not an oversight, this isn't something that's considered "game-breaking."

    @cwhitesidedev#9752, this should be acknowledged and a quick hot fix done soon, in the name of good will.

    They do NOT care about their players, they just want to make money.

    Proof of the above statement:
    Upon the release of Module 16, half the population of the game left. Cryptic and the Developers have done NOTHING AT ALL to try to bring the lost players back, nor to prevent other players from leaving the game. They have just been releasing bugged out mod after bugged out mod, WITHOUT fixing the underlying issues and reported problems.
    Again, they're a business, but to say they do not "care" is laughable. If they didn't care, they would have dumped Neverwinter long ago. The programmers, artists, Leads, Management, they don't work for free and if a game doesn't provide revenue, they can't pay their bills.

    Now, you CAN go and purchase Zen. I did, during the Black Friday Sale. I do every year. I always spend money on my VIP. I don't use the ZaX. I use the ZaX to get Zen for other stuff, like Pres Wards, Coals, etc.

    Also, I'll be the first to admit that I DESPISE the changes that came with Mod16. I'll be the first to say that they suck and I hate them and say it with conviction.....

    But, those changes are here to stay. You can either deal with it, like I have or move on. If done right, you can bring older players back to the game (which I am hoping), in addition to new ones. I've been around since the game first started and since that time, Chris is the only Producer that's joined the team I honestly have faith in.

  • methuselas
    methuselas Member Posts: 275 Arc User

    My question is still why create a new store when the Trade bar store exists? Why create a new currency when trade bars exist?
    Why not just upgrade/update the existing store instead of spending developer resources to create a new one with a new currency? I mean with all of the things wrong with the game how is this even on the radar? I'm sorry but my frustration is real. :anguished:

    Not creating a new store. In my pitch, I would replace the Tramalune Store and Vault of Piety, with the new one. Both the Wondrous Bazaar and the Tramalune Store would both share the same items, but one would be for AD the other be for Platinum (as an example.)

    Tram Bars could be traded in at a 1:1 value for the new currency.
    Gold could be traded for Platinum at 1000:1.
    AD to Zen is 750:1.
    Platinum to Zen is 1:1 (I think. I haven't done all the logic and spreadsheet work to make sure this is totally accurate.)

    Why do it this way? Simple.

    If you set up Legacy Dungeons to drop the new currency, in place of the old Loot tables, people could go buy what they wanted and it would stop the complaints (such as I have ) about crappy rewards for older content. If the stores were periodically updated, say every 6 months or every Mod, it keeps it relevant. Now, if BOTH stores had the same items, people who didn't run dungeons could use their Ardent Coins (which would become the new currency) to buy stuff off the Tram Store or they could get it off the Wondrous Bazaar. Now, if you're running dungeons, you'd have access to both and have more currency to spend in the Tram Store. Same if you use Zen to purchase keys. If you have VIP, not only do you get your daily key, but you also get your 15% off the Wondrous Bazaar.

    I haven't looked at the Zen Store yet, but the majority of that stuff will no longer sell for a monetary value. I would replace all the mounts with Legendary ones that are from the older Lockboxes, but are BtA. That way, you could swap mounts around toons, if you needed to. You want an unbound Legendary mount to put on the AH, well you better buy a buttload of keys and cross your fingers. I'd fill the Zen Store with vanity items, like Hairstyles and Races. I'd keep the Level 70 Tokens, the Campaign Completions, Re-roll tokens, Bags, Companions (with new content, the older ones going to the WB/TS), Bank Slots, Appearance Tokens.

    Old mounts, I would turn into BtA single use items, placed on the WB/TS. The price reduced to reflect that. Old Companions, I put them on the WB/TS for AD or Platinum. Enchanting Stones on the WB/TS are BtA, Wards are BtA. The WB/TS would sell all the insignias, sans Legendary.

    Cryptic needs us to buy Zen, but there's really nothing that older players need or want, other than Pres Wards or Coals. Older players will just buy those off the AH from Gold Sellers, Whales or End Game farmers, at a reduced cost compared to the Zen Store. Newer players will probably buy a Purple Mount and maybe a specific Companion or two, but otherwise, they'll purchase those companions off of the AH, as it's cheaper.

  • oremonger#9999
    oremonger#9999 Member Posts: 213 Arc User
    edited January 2020

    My question is still why create a new store when the Trade bar store exists? Why create a new currency when trade bars exist?
    Why not just upgrade/update the existing store instead of spending developer resources to create a new one with a new currency? I mean with all of the things wrong with the game how is this even on the radar? I'm sorry but my frustration is real. :anguished:

    Not creating a new store. In my pitch, I would replace the Tramalune Store and Vault of Piety, with the new one. Both the Wondrous Bazaar and the Tramalune Store would both share the same items, but one would be for AD the other be for Platinum (as an example.)

    Tram Bars could be traded in at a 1:1 value for the new currency.
    Gold could be traded for Platinum at 1000:1.
    AD to Zen is 750:1.
    Platinum to Zen is 1:1 (I think. I haven't done all the logic and spreadsheet work to make sure this is totally accurate.)

    Why do it this way? Simple.

    If you set up Legacy Dungeons to drop the new currency, in place of the old Loot tables, people could go buy what they wanted and it would stop the complaints (such as I have ) about crappy rewards for older content. If the stores were periodically updated, say every 6 months or every Mod, it keeps it relevant. Now, if BOTH stores had the same items, people who didn't run dungeons could use their Ardent Coins (which would become the new currency) to buy stuff off the Tram Store or they could get it off the Wondrous Bazaar. Now, if you're running dungeons, you'd have access to both and have more currency to spend in the Tram Store. Same if you use Zen to purchase keys. If you have VIP, not only do you get your daily key, but you also get your 15% off the Wondrous Bazaar.

    I haven't looked at the Zen Store yet, but the majority of that stuff will no longer sell for a monetary value. I would replace all the mounts with Legendary ones that are from the older Lockboxes, but are BtA. That way, you could swap mounts around toons, if you needed to. You want an unbound Legendary mount to put on the AH, well you better buy a buttload of keys and cross your fingers. I'd fill the Zen Store with vanity items, like Hairstyles and Races. I'd keep the Level 70 Tokens, the Campaign Completions, Re-roll tokens, Bags, Companions (with new content, the older ones going to the WB/TS), Bank Slots, Appearance Tokens.

    Old mounts, I would turn into BtA single use items, placed on the WB/TS. The price reduced to reflect that. Old Companions, I put them on the WB/TS for AD or Platinum. Enchanting Stones on the WB/TS are BtA, Wards are BtA. The WB/TS would sell all the insignias, sans Legendary.

    Cryptic needs us to buy Zen, but there's really nothing that older players need or want, other than Pres Wards or Coals. Older players will just buy those off the AH from Gold Sellers, Whales or End Game farmers, at a reduced cost compared to the Zen Store. Newer players will probably buy a Purple Mount and maybe a specific Companion or two, but otherwise, they'll purchase those companions off of the AH, as it's cheaper.

    I get you, and I really like your ideas. My post was aimed at Chris and Cryptic, not you or anyone else in this thread. There are some really great ideas in this thread. I updated my post so that you can see what is behind me asking those questions... Might want to read it quick though, it may not be there long.
    Post edited by oremonger#9999 on
  • vandelay#6554
    vandelay#6554 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    I didn't have time to read this thread yet but I want to comment before it goes away.

    I had a crazy idea of making the the VIP rank dependent on how much you pay instead of how long you have played the game. Rank 1 could be basic qol improvements (sign post, injury immunity), Rank 2 could be enhanced qol improvements (bank, load out change outside campfire etc), Rank 3 could be 1 token(or key if the current system is kept as is) and maybe up to Rank 5 with 1 tokens and 3 keys/day.
    For me personally it would be interesting to only get the qol improvements and I would probably only run with rank 2 at say 50% of the prize compared to rank 3.
    The old system where you got more Zen/AD back from VIP than it costs to buy it must obviously be reworked for this to be valid (I think you kinda fixed that already based on the new lockbox rewards).

    Thank you for your time!
  • modestmouse75
    modestmouse75 Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    Updated Thoughts

    I was originally thinking” Hey I paid hard earned money to get my Ranks for VIP”, but after talking to others reading others thoughts and
    thinking ,”How many times do we end up giving people that don’t have the basic VIP things IE sign post, banks, mail post, injury kits to help them out?” So why not let them get it when they first get VIP. Makes sense to me.
    They want to do away with ranks make things easier right, and at same time make some changes to “better” things and give us more changes.

    So, I propose; they get right away

    • Signpost
    • Mailbox
    • Immune to injury (but if you do this no need for injury kits, and you should do away with anything that can give injuries, I MEAN ANYTHING)

    People still like their keys, but it has been mentioned in talks about a coin to use towards possibly making choices towards things or towards items in a VIP store with items BTA. I am saying that yes while I like my keys I could do without them and I would in fact rather have a coin or token to use towards other things, whither it be towards a store item or “choice”.


    While when we do log in each day, we get potions, key, re-rolls, I like re-rolls, but I will re-roll with or without them. I would prefer that to be a currency to save up towards a legacy mount, companion or a pack. Obviously within reason can’t expect to get it in a month. Different things again from a VIP store.

    So much needs a “change” via the stores within the game that just has never changed through the years meanwhile it needs it.

    I know they want to do away with the 12 ranks but why not have 2 or 3 set of ranks.
    Example:

    Rank 1:
    • Signpost
    • Mailbox
    • Immune to injury (but if you do this no need for injury kits, and you should do away with anything that can give
    injuries, I MEAN ANYTHING)
    • Daily Rewards (Key/coin)
    • Direct travel to Workshop

    Rank 2:
    • No posting fees to AH
    • Rushing Cost for companions 25 % less
    • Summon Vendor
    • Invocation
    • Bonus AD

    Rank 3:
    • Change out load outs without campfire
    • Power of VIP
    • Summon SH coffer
    • Bank
    • Wondrous Bazaar cost reduced 25%

    @cwhitesidedev#9752
    I have had plenty of time to think on it and just like with @hastur905 and @lordaeolos
    I think changes do in fact need to be made. There are so many options to go with on this.
    Post edited by modestmouse75 on
    image
    SW:Mouse
    OP:MisfitMouse
  • franklin223
    franklin223 Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    @cwhitesidedev#9752
    I thought of an idea that would contribute to your goal of getting players to spend money on the game and tied it to VIP.

    Create a new benefit for VIP at a low rank, like 3-5, that gives players more bonus ZEN when purchasing ZEN at the arc store. Currently, I see the $200.00 bundle gives 20,000+3,000 ZEN; add another 5,000 ZEN to that, for VIP rank X members. Then scale down the bonus ZEN with lower cash buy-ins (at levels under $200).

    I suggest targeting a lower rank of VIP for two reasons.
    1) Make it achievable for little investment to courage future investment.
    2) Since (currently) rank is tied to time of VIP, a lower rank benefit could lead to player purchasing VIP ranks up to this benefit to buy ZEN. After which, the clock ticks down and runs out. In the future, if they want to make another ZEN purchase for cash, they would need to buy more VIP time if they want the generous bonus ZEN.

    Exact number for bonus ZEN would have to be worked out (it is early here and I am on my first cup of coffee). The bonus would have to cover most of the buy in for a new player to purchase their VIP ranks to begin with - but not all. And it would depend on where is the ranking system this benefit landed.

    Benefits:
    Encourages players to pay developers on the cash store.
    Doesn't effect current FTP players (they are not effected currently by players buying ZEN...).
    Will help move the ZEN exchange on the buy ZEN side by introducing more ZEN on the sell side.


  • modestmouse75
    modestmouse75 Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    @thefabricant

    @modestmouse75 I see no reason to have more than a single rank of VIP that gives everything, aside for the purposes of trying to force people to buy additional ranks due to inefficiency, thus making them commit to spending more, thus making them more invested in the game and feel like they need to "stick around" in order to get their money's worth. It isn't very consumer friendly to begin with.

    With that being said, if you want to do, "not very consumer friendly" things with the intention of making money off of it, you could be doing it a lot better. Here is how I would structure a, "not very consumer friendly" VIP, which is designed solely around making money:

    I was trying to find a middle ground tbh. It is going to be impossible to make everyone happy wouldn't you agree?
    image
    SW:Mouse
    OP:MisfitMouse
  • theraxin#5169
    theraxin#5169 Member Posts: 366 Arc User
    edited January 2020

    @modestmouse75 I see no reason to have more than a single rank of VIP that gives everything, aside for the purposes of trying to force people to buy additional ranks due to inefficiency, thus making them commit to spending more, thus making them more invested in the game and feel like they need to "stick around" in order to get their money's worth. It isn't very consumer friendly to begin with.

    With that being said, if you want to do, "not very consumer friendly" things with the intention of making money off of it, you could be doing it a lot better. Here is how I would structure a, "not very consumer friendly" VIP, which is designed solely around making money:


    VIP Tier A (10k zen)
    All the VIP perks + 12 months VIP

    VIP Tier A- (9k zen)
    All the B Perks +
    Change Loadouts everywhere.
    WB Discount.
    Extra HP.
    No AH Cut.
    6 months VIP.

    VIP Tier B (5k zen)
    All the C Perks +
    No Injuries.
    Professions Vendor.
    Guild Bank.
    5 months VIP.

    VIP Tier C: (1k zen)

    Moonstone Mask.
    Signpost.
    Free Key.
    1 month VIP.


    In this system, buying additional months of a VIP tier will not increase your tier of VIP. So if you purchase Tier C VIP and then you purchase it again, it will not move you up to Tier B VIP, the only way to do so is to fully commit and purchase the next tier. This is a more efficient method to, "bleed" customers, as it has an obvious inefficiency and forces you to make a choice. Furthermore, if a customer buys Tier C and then Tier B, it doesn't give a timer of 7 months for Tier B, it simply freezes the timer for Tier C, then when their Tier B runs out, it degrades to C for the remainder of their duration.

    The reason Tier A and A- exist is to give the illusion that Tier A is much better than it actually is. You don't actually want anyone to buy Tier A-, you want everyone to buy Tier A. By creating a direct comparison point, you make Tier A look much better than it really is. This has the advantage that more people are likely to buy it, which results in players feeling the need to stick around for longer to get the, "full benefit" of their VIP, even if it means collecting keys for a year rather than 6 months.

    Now, I personally do not want a VIP system like this implemented, its not very consumer friendly, but its just about the only reason I see to have different tiers of VIP. I would just have 1 tier of VIP, which gives all the perks that VIP currently has.
    Well, my short response is that don't propose things that neither you nor the customers would like, because you will have to end up trying to defend something that you don't want to defend.

    My problem with your suggested VIP plan... well, it's a lot of things, but the most clear point: the "no AH cut"

    This will restructure the entire VIP system to be an investment for those with huge reserves. This is not "not customer friendly", it's actively against the interest of the consumers and the stability of the market as there will be a set of players that can easily can undercut everyone else by reducing their margins, encouraging speculations as the huge spenders will want to make their bucks back.

    Maybe you can't see a more tiered VIP, because all of your VIP ranks structured around value and because expected value returns boil down to numbers and there's a clear optimum which render others just not worth it.

    And while I can mock your example further, I think the problem is not there, but that the convenience VIP perks are cheap and no one would spend big money on them.

    Edit: While I have to go now, I will suggest stuff like: a house and custom features that go with it, as a VIP feature (more space) that won't have "investment value", but people wanted it and would play a lot for.
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    @modestmouse75 I see no reason to have more than a single rank of VIP that gives everything, aside for the purposes of trying to force people to buy additional ranks due to inefficiency, thus making them commit to spending more, thus making them more invested in the game and feel like they need to "stick around" in order to get their money's worth. It isn't very consumer friendly to begin with.

    With that being said, if you want to do, "not very consumer friendly" things with the intention of making money off of it, you could be doing it a lot better. Here is how I would structure a, "not very consumer friendly" VIP, which is designed solely around making money:


    VIP Tier A (10k zen)
    All the VIP perks + 12 months VIP

    VIP Tier A- (9k zen)
    All the B Perks +
    Change Loadouts everywhere.
    WB Discount.
    Extra HP.
    No AH Cut.
    6 months VIP.

    VIP Tier B (5k zen)
    All the C Perks +
    No Injuries.
    Professions Vendor.
    Guild Bank.
    5 months VIP.

    VIP Tier C: (1k zen)

    Moonstone Mask.
    Signpost.
    Free Key.
    1 month VIP.


    In this system, buying additional months of a VIP tier will not increase your tier of VIP. So if you purchase Tier C VIP and then you purchase it again, it will not move you up to Tier B VIP, the only way to do so is to fully commit and purchase the next tier. This is a more efficient method to, "bleed" customers, as it has an obvious inefficiency and forces you to make a choice. Furthermore, if a customer buys Tier C and then Tier B, it doesn't give a timer of 7 months for Tier B, it simply freezes the timer for Tier C, then when their Tier B runs out, it degrades to C for the remainder of their duration.

    The reason Tier A and A- exist is to give the illusion that Tier A is much better than it actually is. You don't actually want anyone to buy Tier A-, you want everyone to buy Tier A. By creating a direct comparison point, you make Tier A look much better than it really is. This has the advantage that more people are likely to buy it, which results in players feeling the need to stick around for longer to get the, "full benefit" of their VIP, even if it means collecting keys for a year rather than 6 months.

    Now, I personally do not want a VIP system like this implemented, its not very consumer friendly, but its just about the only reason I see to have different tiers of VIP. I would just have 1 tier of VIP, which gives all the perks that VIP currently has.
    Well, my short response is that don't propose things that neither you nor the customers would like, because you will have to end up trying to defend something that you don't want to defend.

    My problem with your suggested VIP plan... well, it's a lot of things, but the most clear point: the "no AH cut"

    This will restructure the entire VIP system to be an investment for those with huge reserves. This is not "not customer friendly", it's actively against the interest of the consumers and the stability of the market as there will be a set of players that can easily can undercut everyone else by reducing their margins, encouraging speculations as the huge spenders will want to make their bucks back.

    Maybe you can't see a more tiered VIP, because all of your VIP ranks structured around value and because expected value returns boil down to numbers and there's a clear optimum which render others just not worth it.

    And while I can mock your example further, I think the problem is not there, but that the convenience VIP perks are cheap and no one would spend big money on them.

    Edit: While I have to go now, I will suggest stuff like: a house and custom features that go with it, as a VIP feature (more space) that won't have "investment value", but people wanted it and would play a lot for.
    That was not an example of what I wanted, it was an example of something which I think EA would do if they were making VIP.

    I would just do 1 rank of VIP that has all the benefits for 1k zen tbh, since in essence, you want all the benefits anyhow and it gives, "good rep" for being consumer friendly.
  • lordaeolos
    lordaeolos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User

    Updated Thoughts

    I was originally thinking” Hey I paid hard earned money to get my Ranks for VIP”, but after talking to others reading others thoughts and
    thinking ,”How many times do we end up giving people that don’t have the basic VIP things IE sign post, banks, mail post, injury kits to help them out?” So why not let them get it when they first get VIP. Makes sense to me.
    They want to do away with ranks make things easier right, and at same time make some changes to “better” things and give us more changes.

    So, I propose; they get right away

    • Signpost
    • Mailbox
    • Immune to injury (but if you do this no need for injury kits, and you should do away with anything that can give injuries, I MEAN ANYTHING)

    People still like their keys, but it has been mentioned in talks about a coin to use towards possibly making choices towards things or towards items in a VIP store with items BTA. I am saying that yes while I like my keys I could do without them and I would in fact rather have a coin or token to use towards other things, whither it be towards a store item or “choice”.


    While when we do log in each day, we get potions, key, re-rolls, I like re-rolls, but I will re-roll with or without them. I would prefer that to be a currency to save up towards a legacy mount, companion or a pack. Obviously within reason can’t expect to get it in a month. Different things again from a VIP store.

    So much needs a “change” via the stores within the game that just has never changed through the years meanwhile it needs it.

    I know they want to do away with the 12 ranks but why not have 2 or 3 set of ranks.
    Example:

    Rank 1:
    • Signpost
    • Mailbox
    • Immune to injury (but if you do this no need for injury kits, and you should do away with anything that can give
    injuries, I MEAN ANYTHING)
    • Daily Rewards (Key/coin)
    • Direct travel to Workshop

    Rank 2:
    • No posting fees to AH
    • Rushing Cost for companions 25 % less
    • Summon Vendor
    • Invocation
    • Bonus AD

    Rank 3:
    • Change out load outs without campfire
    • Power of VIP
    • Summon SH coffer
    • Bank
    • Wondrous Bazaar cost reduced 25%

    @cwhitesidedev#9752
    I have had plenty of time to think on it and just like with @hastur905 and @lordaeolos
    I think changes do in fact need to be made. There are so many options to go with on this.

    The reason I am for doing away with VIP ranks is because technically we are not paying "more for each rank"...

    Lets pretend i'm a new player and say for example I buy a month of VIP right now.. I now have rank 1.. well I let that expire for a few weeks then I buy another month.. now I'm at rank 2... because the ranks never actually expire and just keep accumulating having VIP rank 12 isn't a "I paid more for this", it's merely I have at some point in time accumulated 12 months worth of VIP.

    So yeah, I still think we should eliminate ranks of VIP, give all the benefits from the start (travel, bank, mailbox, vendors, and No AH posting fee), then create a "Super Store" and streamline all these various stores into one place to spend currency that can be acquired via various means. The keys to the "Super Store" are to have a large number of items available (we shouldn't get less than we have now), continually update that store with items, and have the cost reasonably balanced with Zen and Healthy Market costs.

    So to reiterate: the "Super Store" (Knox's Armory?) would have all the items available on the Wondrous Bizarre, Tarmalene Trade Bar Store, Invoking Stores (getting rid of the RNG boxes from invoking in favor of currency), maybe the legacy campaign store, some items you can only get currently from lockboxes (legs mounts for example), and of course keys for the gamblers. The only really hard part is balancing out costs, and currency acquisition. This store could even replace seals for any older dungeons, so any dungeon older than the most recent would give currency (to a weekly max) instead of seals... this really streamlines the whole process and eliminates confusion for new players, while also opening up a lot of avenues for currency acquisitions that supports a "play how you want" approach that is the life blood of gamer activity.

    Now that I suggested more scope creep, currency could be acquired by:

    -VIP daily claim
    -Invoking
    -Tarmalene Trade Bars
    -Zen Market
    -Direct buy with AD
    -Drop from legacy queued content / PvP?
    - Legacy campaigns








    "Lord Willow"
    Guild Leader: Mistaken Identity (formerly Midnight Express)
    My Twitch Stream
    See my Youtube Channel for guides and more


    "Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
  • methuselas
    methuselas Member Posts: 275 Arc User




    Snip



    Yeah, I was actually thinking that the Legacy Store should also be replaced/removed as well, after I posted last night. All the stuff there, should be in the "Super Store" and Wondrous Bazaar. In fact, that would help to create a "baseline" for costs and give an additional stream for "Super Store" tokens. If pricing were similar to Astral Diamonds, it would still be a grind, but enough to want to do and it's going to help lower ZaX backlog, also helping to cripple 3rd Party sellers.

    This could really work. If all the old weapons/armor from the older Mods, such as Sharandar, were turned into transmutes you could buy, it would help end frustration when getting that if you're running say Master of the Hunt. Honestly, if we went with a token system to buy stuff, I'd start running Dungeons again to help train n00bs on the older runs, as I'd need that for current content.


    On the subject of VIP, do people actually buy VIP a month at a time? When it first came out, I bought 6 months, 'cos it was cost effective and when I came back after Ravenloft, I went and bought a year at a time. I just considered it a "subscription." I can't live without my VIP now. Dropping a hundred bucks a year to get all the perks I get with VIP and a few other goodies is worth it, to me.



  • duckie#5377
    duckie#5377 Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    I personally like the idea of enticing more people to make small payments towards playing the game (Micro transactions), if in turn it reduced the extortionate Zen store prices (a single item that costs the same as 1 or 2 new full release games is just wrong).

    I had to pay for the 12 ranks and feel that I've had my worth from it,. I think there should be levels but not necessarily 12.

    I have 7 years VIP remaining,. Hands off! ☺️

    I would pay triple and lose all other benefits to get a similar combat and build system to what we had before mod 16 dropped. ☺️👍👍
This discussion has been closed.