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CDP Topic: Game Content Accessibility

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  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    Guys, lets focus on the topic of the thread "accessibility". Surely, there are many other topics linked with it but by discussing it in here, you increase the burden on Chris.

    The main topic right now is that how can Cryptic make content that can be enjoyed and be accessible for all types of audiences? So the 3 main audiences are Lore Lovers (usually solo type of players), Newcomers (not yet end game) and end game/hardcore players. PVP needs a different CDP thread for its vastness.

    So far many people have recommended gating content behind tiers and I personally am keen on the POE endless dungeon where you always have the option to grind and the challenge just keeps getting tougher.

    Many people just want to enjoy bashing some trash after work or school, so endless dungeons caters to them as well as end gamers. Lore lovers would require a full blown out story based dungeon and am not too sure if Cryptic has thought about merging endless dungeons with story based as an alternative option.

  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    Guys, lets focus on the topic of the thread "accessibility". Surely, there are many other topics linked with it but by discussing it in here, you increase the burden on Chris.

    The main topic right now is that how can Cryptic make content that can be enjoyed and be accessible for all types of audiences? So the 3 main audiences are Lore Lovers (usually solo type of players), Newcomers (not yet end game) and end game/hardcore players. PVP needs a different CDP thread for its vastness.

    So far many people have recommended gating content behind tiers and I personally am keen on the POE endless dungeon where you always have the option to grind and the challenge just keeps getting tougher.

    Many people just want to enjoy bashing some trash after work or school, so endless dungeons caters to them as well as end gamers. Lore lovers would require a full blown out story based dungeon and am not too sure if Cryptic has thought about merging endless dungeons with story based as an alternative option.

    To be honest an endless dungeon doesn't really fit well with a D&D game. It's D&D, not POE or Diablo.
    And many people prefer to play solo a lot, so I guess they should keep something that can be done solo instead of only dungeons (and dungeons watered down to solo level won't really fit that space). In the guilds I have seen, most players are doing solo or community events (dragonflight, etc.) to keep it easy when they want it.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • bpstuartbpstuart Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    Accessibility issue Narrative Coherence.

    Feedback Overview: A small guide or event order to make the story consistent.

    Feedback Goal: I would like to propose a small tab or list of the order of events in certain story chains. Upon reaching max level, all kinds of campaigns and content becomes available and can be taken out of order. Sometimes this can be jarring. I am introduced to Makos in Maze Engine, i take a break from maze engine when it gets a little grindy and check out chult only for me to learn Makos died, was mourned in River district only to bee back again in chult. I kinda would have liked to know the stoory order so i could have done them for a proper Narritivee experience.

    Feedback Functionality: Impact would be minimal as it could be nothing more than a page with Narrative strings laid out like: Maze Engine-> River District-> Jungles of chult. Since many adventures are rather self contained they can be left off or labled as such, but if there is a running plot thread or one campaign is meant to occurred narritivally after another, it would be marked as such and the order given but in an optional tab in your journal.


    Risks & Concerns: Some May compelled too do it in prescribed order, but a text box or voice over can makee it clear that following this order is entirely optional.

    Ego etiam cupo recrari et amari diu post mortem meam
    I too wish to be recreated, and to be loved long after my death.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User

    sobi#1980 said:

    Guys, lets focus on the topic of the thread "accessibility". Surely, there are many other topics linked with it but by discussing it in here, you increase the burden on Chris.

    The main topic right now is that how can Cryptic make content that can be enjoyed and be accessible for all types of audiences? So the 3 main audiences are Lore Lovers (usually solo type of players), Newcomers (not yet end game) and end game/hardcore players. PVP needs a different CDP thread for its vastness.

    So far many people have recommended gating content behind tiers and I personally am keen on the POE endless dungeon where you always have the option to grind and the challenge just keeps getting tougher.

    Many people just want to enjoy bashing some trash after work or school, so endless dungeons caters to them as well as end gamers. Lore lovers would require a full blown out story based dungeon and am not too sure if Cryptic has thought about merging endless dungeons with story based as an alternative option.

    To be honest an endless dungeon doesn't really fit well with a D&D game. It's D&D, not POE or Diablo.
    And many people prefer to play solo a lot, so I guess they should keep something that can be done solo instead of only dungeons (and dungeons watered down to solo level won't really fit that space). In the guilds I have seen, most players are doing solo or community events (dragonflight, etc.) to keep it easy when they want it.
    An MMO to be played SOLO??? While we all have different opinions and interests, the fact of the matter still remains that Cryptic is a business first and foremost. They are catering for their customers rather than individuals. If they felt that a great proportion of the game's revenue came from D&D solo lovers and spend all their time on creating story based campaigns, than so be it. I wouldn't think twice staying in this game if so, because if i wanted to play a story based games, i look towards real RPG games like Dragon age, Skyrim, Witcher and so on. I can't for once see, how an MMO can survive making story based dungeons as its main attraction. The whole MMO world is taken over by PVP and PVE is the closest you get to PVP.

    In reality when you think about it, DnD, was never an Open World Game, when you played with your friends, some other group of players didn't come along and enter your campaign, kill your mobs, steal your loot, and save the town, you had your own private instance that you played in, and other players had theirs. So PVE definitely is more defining of D&D than PVP.

    But NW is not only a D&D based game, it is an MMO. There has to be balance between the both. I can understand your argument, however there are plenty of D&Dish single player RPG games already offering that. MMO's are not pure RPG's where you are alone in the world and role play. This is a massive multiplayer online game and that to free to play. How can the game ever hope to stay F2P as an MMO but only having campaigns that are basically another version of RPG but far inferior?

    I also beg to differ, why do people make it out that an endless dungeon and D&D story based campaigns are mutually exclusive? Are we even getting anywhere with these discussions because i am having to read people telling NW to actually break its roots and completely revert to a story based solo type of MMMOOO??
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    I have to add to the suggestion for two tiered versions of more complex "mechanics based" content.

    As a simple example, I remember when Ravenloft first dropped, and when enough people were finally eligible, trying to run PUGs in CR.
    That first major battle with the Sisters was about a 1 in 20 chance of getting through, and even then that would involve three or four drop outs and reinforcements. That was a relatively simple game mechanic, once you understood it. But learning it was a steep curve if you didn't have patient friends prepared to guide you through.

    If two tiered content is too resource/time restrictive, as a more left field idea, I don't know whether there might be a way to have a "Hints" version of content?
    Basically, you opt to run the content at a lower reward rank, but get pop ups a la the normal tutorials telling you what the specific encounter requires. Either in terms of general tips, or flat out explanations.

    As far as the new player experience goes, I recently ran a new Gith character through the revised starting campaign process. While the new artwork on Tower District, and so on are nice touches, the levelling process is still pretty confusing. With "Legacy Campaigns" now extending all the way up to Ravenloft it feels like a long way for new players to catch up to new content at the Undermountain stage, particularly when they will be Level 80 long before getting there if they are going to try and proceed in any sort of linear fashion.

    But, of course, any player is going to head straight for the newest content they are eligible for, so will complete Undermountain probably before they complete Elemental Evil. Meaning they will be doing most of those Legacy campaigns as a L80 and finding them, frankly, lacking in challenge and a somewhat tiresome grind in order to get Boons, because none of the gear from those campaigns is fit for purpose at L80.

    I think that one thing that might help alleviate this somewhat would be updating the rewards for campaign staging. Such as the enchants from Tyranny. Rank 3? Sorry, that's barely worth converting to RP for anyone, and any player with an ounce of sense will join a decent guild whose members will help fit them out with R7s across the board as a MINIMUM. If you don't want to give out R7s and 8s for that easy content swap it out for a decent RP reward, as that will be a big help for people chasing base parity at L80. They'll be looking at refining 4 (probably basic) artifacts, 4 artifact gear pieces, and probably 3 Bondings all at the same time in order to be relevant in queue content.
    Helping them get that helps us all.

    It's lots of little things that if updated would make the levelling experience a bit less of a grind.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User
    As someone who normally solo grinds stuff, I can say that I am normally solo because of the ease of the content. Even with Master Expeditions that have the option, I find that I would rather do a 1-rune ME solo than to do it in a group. Part of this is because it takes the same amount of time as part of a group, another if because it helps me learn and play my class better (if it's not my main), and also so I don't have to deal with people outside of my guild and alliance. Open world stuff is just plain easy, even with the upcoming mod, aside from HEs, quests can be done solo at your own pace. This is perfectly fine though. More what I am getting at, is that part of why there are what seems to be a lot of solo players, is that campaign grinding is just something we can do without having to coordinate (or deal) with other people but still progress in the game.

    I like the idea of MEs, instanced hunts, and what not (though with less RNG layers) for the more solo minded players, but it should not take away from the group content, as this is an MMO, and group content should be the core source of replay-ability. The campaign is the story and lore, with maybe a bit of a mini, solo dungeon at the end for sense of closure and completion. The Dungeons/events are the group content with the high end rewards to entice players to want to repeatedly play and come back.

  • roxie#4965 roxie Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    I think the new player has a very lonely experience. We cant access guilds because we cant message or chat. When i play an mmorpg type game i do so with the idea that i am joining a world full of other players to interact with. Having to play solo for 30 levels before i can even ask to join a guild is a major turnoff. I would hope you can relax the chat restrictions in the future, so that new players like me can interact with others and join a guild. Thats part of the mmo experience, if i wanted to play solo i would go back to my single player games. I just started last night, im on the fence if im going to stay or not. Not being able to interact with players at all is a big downer.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User

    sobi#1980 said:

    sobi#1980 said:

    Guys, lets focus on the topic of the thread "accessibility". Surely, there are many other topics linked with it but by discussing it in here, you increase the burden on Chris.

    The main topic right now is that how can Cryptic make content that can be enjoyed and be accessible for all types of audiences? So the 3 main audiences are Lore Lovers (usually solo type of players), Newcomers (not yet end game) and end game/hardcore players. PVP needs a different CDP thread for its vastness.

    So far many people have recommended gating content behind tiers and I personally am keen on the POE endless dungeon where you always have the option to grind and the challenge just keeps getting tougher.

    Many people just want to enjoy bashing some trash after work or school, so endless dungeons caters to them as well as end gamers. Lore lovers would require a full blown out story based dungeon and am not too sure if Cryptic has thought about merging endless dungeons with story based as an alternative option.

    To be honest an endless dungeon doesn't really fit well with a D&D game. It's D&D, not POE or Diablo.
    And many people prefer to play solo a lot, so I guess they should keep something that can be done solo instead of only dungeons (and dungeons watered down to solo level won't really fit that space). In the guilds I have seen, most players are doing solo or community events (dragonflight, etc.) to keep it easy when they want it.
    An MMO to be played SOLO??? While we all have different opinions and interests, the fact of the matter still remains that Cryptic is a business first and foremost. They are catering for their customers rather than individuals. If they felt that a great proportion of the game's revenue came from D&D solo lovers and spend all their time on creating story based campaigns, than so be it. I wouldn't think twice staying in this game if so, because if i wanted to play a story based games, i look towards real RPG games like Dragon age, Skyrim, Witcher and so on. I can't for once see, how an MMO can survive making story based dungeons as its main attraction. The whole MMO world is taken over by PVP and PVE is the closest you get to PVP.

    In reality when you think about it, DnD, was never an Open World Game, when you played with your friends, some other group of players didn't come along and enter your campaign, kill your mobs, steal your loot, and save the town, you had your own private instance that you played in, and other players had theirs. So PVE definitely is more defining of D&D than PVP.

    But NW is not only a D&D based game, it is an MMO. There has to be balance between the both. I can understand your argument, however there are plenty of D&Dish single player RPG games already offering that. MMO's are not pure RPG's where you are alone in the world and role play. This is a massive multiplayer online game and that to free to play. How can the game ever hope to stay F2P as an MMO but only having campaigns that are basically another version of RPG but far inferior?

    I also beg to differ, why do people make it out that an endless dungeon and D&D story based campaigns are mutually exclusive? Are we even getting anywhere with these discussions because i am having to read people telling NW to actually break its roots and completely revert to a story based solo type of MMMOOO??
    I guess you don't understand. I have been a guild leader and I can tell you that there's a large number of players that prefer grinding campaigns solo than doing dungeons all time. They also do some dungeons but that is not their main thing. I guess you are not one of them but they are definitely a number.
    Then this game is using the wrong genre to attract people. MMO's have solo content but most of that is during leveling up. If i wanted to play solo, i rather play solo RPG's that are made for that very reason. What you are trying to tell me is that, people just want to suck out the free RPG out of the MMO. It's not how a business can survive and those doing TOMM, ask them how much they have invested into the game. If you can invest in PS4 or Xbox games, investing in an MMO is no different.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 709 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    sobi#1980 said:


    Then this game is using the wrong genre to attract people. MMO's have solo content but most of that is during leveling up. If i wanted to play solo, i rather play solo RPG's that are made for that very reason. What you are trying to tell me is that, people just want to suck out the free RPG out of the MMO. It's not how a business can survive and those doing TOMM, ask them how much they have invested into the game. If you can invest in PS4 or Xbox games, investing in an MMO is no different.

    MMOs offer group play, but not exclusively. As soon as there is a choice, people will have preferences. They could focus more on solo, they could focus more on pvp, they could focus more on (group related content/) pve, but the sum of what they focus on since at least huntgate is not content, but reducing choice, fun, the usage of three braincells when playing, whatever, your pick.

    There could be more group content, there could be better campaigns, everybody would be happy. (Or nah, then we would still be discussing whether or not nerfs are allowed, especially for GWF CW.)

    People actually play games for different reasons, and I can have a multiplayer experience without dungeons. Of course, that defies the D&D "setting", where we are constantly running Dungeons (twice a year) and fighting Dragons.

    I forgot: There is a huge difference between solo RPG (was it you that mentioned Witcher 3 and Skyrim?) and MMOs, and it IS the community. Being a member of a community, contributing to a bigger goal, helping out, chatting is not bound to group-content, but bound to a game with an active community. That is why there are people in NW that have a solo-preference. I love Witcher 3. But I DO know its just NPCs.
    That doesn't mean that people with that preference can't run group content or are generally unwilling to. I am, for one, unwilling to run group content with nasty people, so I don't. That also means that I will leave what I consider a bad environment and maybe solo if I'm already pissed of, and it means that I would rather run a few DR lairs if my usual group is not online and I'm not up for pugs. Is that the evil solo kind of way? I don't know.

    There should be a focus on the dungeons, but in my opinion just bringing out new dungeons is not a good idea, if they continue their path of purpose: It has a purpose, then its dead. The rewards are HAMSTER. Please let the game punish us for spending our time on dungeons when I could farm 10 ses in that timeframe.
    I would look forward to high quality dungeons. But I also liked to solo dungeons. I liked to duo dungeons. I liked to invite ppl for last boss. I liked getting completely destroyed trying out new builds solo in FBI.
    But I can also see that my experience is not everybody else's, and that 50 new dungeons couldn't change the problems in this game, either.

    - bye bye -
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User

    sobi#1980 said:


    Then this game is using the wrong genre to attract people. MMO's have solo content but most of that is during leveling up. If i wanted to play solo, i rather play solo RPG's that are made for that very reason. What you are trying to tell me is that, people just want to suck out the free RPG out of the MMO. It's not how a business can survive and those doing TOMM, ask them how much they have invested into the game. If you can invest in PS4 or Xbox games, investing in an MMO is no different.

    MMOs offer group play, but not exclusively. As soon as there is a choice, people will have preferences. They could focus more on solo, they could focus more on pvp, they could focus more on (group related content/) pve, but the sum of what they focus on since at least huntgate is not content, but reducing choice, fun, the usage of three braincells when playing, whatever, your pick.

    There could be more group content, there could be better campaigns, everybody would be happy. (Or nah, then we would still be discussing whether or not nerfs are allowed, especially for GWF CW.)

    People actually play games for different reasons, and I can have a multiplayer experience without dungeons. Of course, that defies the D&D "setting", where we are constantly running Dungeons (twice a year) and fighting Dragons.

    If you actually read my previous comments, to which this comment stemmed from, you wouldn't have taken my quoted post out of context. I can tell that you haven't read the previous comments because i have clearly stated that story based dungeons and endless dungeons for PVE are not mutually exclusive. Actually, most of my comments in this CDP have been to give ideas on how NW can achieve content that is targeted at multiple audiences. The replies however i am getting is that they should just focus on solo content. So i ask, who is against giving choice to players? My main arguments stands, that is that even before being an D&D game, people see NW as an MMO. It fits neatly in that genre and ffs it even describes itself as ACTION based MMORPG. You want such a game to solely dedicate to story based campaigns with no multiplayer pve combat aka dungeons?
  • oremonger#9999 oremonger Member Posts: 213 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    I think the new player has a very lonely experience. We cant access guilds because we cant message or chat. When i play an mmorpg type game i do so with the idea that i am joining a world full of other players to interact with. Having to play solo for 30 levels before i can even ask to join a guild is a major turnoff. I would hope you can relax the chat restrictions in the future, so that new players like me can interact with others and join a guild. Thats part of the mmo experience, if i wanted to play solo i would go back to my single player games. I just started last night, im on the fence if im going to stay or not. Not being able to interact with players at all is a big downer.

    @roxie#4965
    Hi, I hope that someone has already reached out to you given that several of the people posting in this thread are guild leaders and officers in many of the larger guilds in Neverwinter, but if not I would like to offer a few suggestions to help you work around the problems you mentioned. Like you I had the same problems when I first started playing, but I was lucky to find a guild rather quickly using the following resources.

    There are several places you can find information about guilds outside of the game. One of the best places is here on these forums. You will need to look in the section for the platform you are playing on and then find the subforum. The Subforum for PC is...

    GUILD & ALLIANCE RECRUITMENT (PC)
    I would read through the threads and see which guild fits with your playstyle and level of commitment.


    Another place to find a guild is on the Neverwinter reddit. There are only a few for each platform listed there but if you make a post listing what platform you are on and what kind of guild you are looking for I'm sure you will get a response.

    You can also look on the Protector's Enclave discord channel.
    Once you are in a Guild you can use your Guild and Alliance chat to communicate. Many Guilds even have Discord or TeamSpeak severs for voice communication.

    I wish you luck! I am sure you will find a home soon. Welcome to Neverwinter!
    Post edited by oremonger#9999 on
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 709 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    @cwhitesidedev#9752
    After reading all of the posts in this thread I see a little problem. Most of the responses and ideas/feedback are from the same ~ 50 or so people who usually post here on the forums. Many are still VERY passionate about their pet peeves, and still very vocal. These folks need to know that they have been heard, but also IMO be told so in the Dozens or Hundreds of threads that already exists about those subjects instead of in the CDP. This is why I fear that every CDP will slowly devolve into the same old discussions and arguments IF you only do one CDP per month. This isn't my main concern though.

    I am really excited about this new initiative, and have done my best to publicize it in my guild. Forgive me, but the truth is they are some pretty jaded folks these days. Many have been burned one too many times so getting them to post here is an uphill battle. Many have already seen what MOD 18 looks like on preview, and TBH I have a feeling that it's not going to be pretty for you guys at release. (Not getting into that here.)

    Please give some thought into publicizing the CDP just like you would a New MOD release. What you are doing is important and I think you are not getting the bang for your buck that you could be getting. Please consider using Direct email, social media, Neverwinter Youtubers and Streamers, Reddit and Discord to spread the word. The Community needs to know you are serious and engauged. The Community needs to know about the new engagement from QA and the efforts you are making here. The Stream you did was great, but the live audience was only about 300 people and the Youtube Video only has 1.3k views as of the date of this post.

    I realize that the Holidays have slowed things down quite a bit, but you really need more input / participation from a wider audience than what you are getting now. And like @adinosii said so well in an earlier post, you really should be asking those who no longer play WHY they no longer play. Those people are not on these forums anymore. Direct email might get them back.

    I only wish you had started this earlier, I hope MOD 18.... Yikes man. Really?

    Hi Oremonger,

    Happy Holidays. I am still in the middle of mine but i am trying to stay up to date.

    Multiple points here which i will try to answer in one reply. In the past i found that more folks joined the longer the initiative ran and it didn't take too long for their to be vocal representatives from all types of players and those anxious to post started gaining more confidence and it got to the point that the discussions got so big I/we needed a month break between each one. This said we intend to run CDP topics for two weeks and then a break of a week and onto the next one. The reason i don't want to publicize it to much at the moment is because:

    A: I don't want people to see this as a marketing initiative because it isn't.
    B: Starting slowly gives time for everyone to bed in and see the value of the CDP.
    C: Having too many folks join right from the start can be difficult to manage in terms of knowing the rules and expectations of the initiative. Even at the moment folks are having some difficulty understanding that the thread has a specific topic.

    Therefore as we get through a few threads community members will help to self regulate and help the new members of the project and make it easier for me and the team to learn from and discuss with you all.

    So far this thread has been really useful, the team has been reading it and changes are being discussed already and some current ideas we are working on have been further enforced by the conversation. The only thing so far I am unhappy about is my ability to respond. Normally i am a lot more active but having just started the job, moved down and now the holidays have made this difficult. This said I should be more active soon.

    Regarding publicizing the CDP we will do but only after the above goals have been worked through.

    Thanks for tasking the time to post and happy holidays.

    Chris

    LOL. I think i'm safe in using the pronoun "we" here, We havent' seen this kind of activity from a dev in AGES. I don't think anyone is upset with your contribution level. TYVM. we're glad to have some dev attention.
    Pretty much.

    It will actually be hard to get anyones attention by not reaching out to other platforms, I doubt you will reach the kind of people you are obviously looking for on the forums alone.
    But judging from this thread alone, the problem is probably how much people you even want to reach by this program?

    The history of feedback on here is imo:
    - honest, constructive and ultimately ignored and/or shut down feedback followed by
    - honest but not so constructive and/or feedback in a tone that was not well recieved followed by
    - silence.

    (On the point of understaying that this thread has a certain topic: You will have an easier time with CDPs not interrupted by holidays, this is not completely on the players' (like me) capacity to stay on topic or understand what you want from this, but also on moderation. While I completely understand it is difficult to monitor anything during a pretty long break (and the time where many players actually do read the topic) and that I personally do have an issue with understanding certain points on here (or the mannerism that grants acceptance), I would argue that I'm the odd idiot and that the others actually have no problem in understanding what the thread is about.)

    On a side note:
    Not all of it, but a lot of the negative vibes/voices in here were raised and educated by the rare attention they got, they didn't just trickle in and decide to bash the game, like some more white-knightery people would argue. I would probably argue (and yeah, don't worry guys, its the last point I will argue about here) that mostly everybody on the forum or the people that still follow dev streams on twitch are the people that still care and NW didn't manage to drive away from the game. If it is so hard to see passion in people that may forget their tone online, you will have a hard time maintaining enough passion ingame if there is nobody that can be lectured and educated by white-knights.

    But anyway, many people put effort into this forum and into one-sided conversations before and left without it having an impact, I hope you will consider everybodys feedback and not just those that seem more useful, but it seems like you will certainly try to change things around, so I hope some people will profit of this in the future.
    - bye bye -
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    winning back the player base trust is going to be a challenge.

    but I look forward to it. I hope you do turn it around. I don't want things to be the way they've been.
  • marvyn#9793 marvyn Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    Feedback Overview: Tuning of content throughout the game needs to be fixed.


    I've now played Neverwinter for about 18 months. Previously I played WoW for 7 years at a competitive level. I finished with the previous game as I needed something more casual friendly which wouldn't need as much time to play. But I'm looking for something which is casual in terms of time required, not casual as in rewards for no skills.


    The levelling experience, learning how to play an MMORPG


    The problem with Neverwinter, is that too much of the content is trivial. Most of the levelling quests are incredibly straightforward, as are most of the campaigns. So it's little surprise that people reach maximum level (very quickly) and then find that they aren't perhaps clued-up on various aspects of their class.

    I created an alt - a paladin tank - a couple of months ago. I did a few dungeons while levelling. Owing to the presence of (scaled) maximum level players in a levelling dungeon, it was impossible to learn the basics of tanking, as aggro management, using your shield etc. was completely impossible as people could charge ahead and steamroll the content; it was completely trivial.

    Now I understand that people just want these things over with as quickly as possible to get their AD. But is this a good experience for new players? I doubt it. Asides from the bad experience, how does the new tank learn to block, the new healer to heal or the new dps learn to avoid damage?

    Levelling dungeons should only really be for those who are levelling, or, the scaling in those dungeons should be much more severe.

    The end-game experience for new and established players

    Then there's the whole 'end-game' dungeons. Obviously, most of these dungeons are not really end-game as they are level 70 dungeons, but anyway -> too many of them are too easy. There's too little penalties in the game for failing (e.g. dying is but a temporary inconvenience more often than not).

    Me and 4 guildmates managed to finish Lair of Mad Mage in one afternoon, having no prior knowledge of it. There's a balance to be struck between accessibility and the content being just too easy. I think at the moment it's off. The only new and challenging content in Mod 16 was one dungeon, which we managed to beat in an afternoon.


    Not withstanding any of the above, there still seems to be players in random groups who are very poorly equipped to be in these dungeons. It could be that the differential between a maxed-player and a new player is much too wide. Or - it could be that players who just aren't ready to start these dungeons are joining them to get their AD. There doesn't appear to be a bridge between getting to level 80 and actually being ready for the end-game dungeons, but still being able to earn AD to be able to enchant your gear, buy upgrades so that you are ready.

    Other people have suggested variants of having a 'normal' version of a dungeon and a 'heroic' version. For this to work, there'd have to be bars on access to the heroic version: e.g. has completed the normal version, and, has power of X, armor pen of Y etc. etc.

    Then we'd have to look at the rewards on offer. If, for example, you can get all your AD for the day by doing the normal versions, then why would people run the heroic version, if you accept that players usually follow the path of least resistance. So - maybe rewards other than AD need to be available.


    Feedback Goal (what this feedback would target and accomplish):
    Better content tuned to players of different ability.


    Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter): Levelling dungeons only for levelling characters, or more heavily scaled level 80 players. Normal and heroic versions of existing dungeons.


    Risks & Concerns (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum):

    Some of my suggestions imply that I think the power differential between a new level 80 and maximum level 80 players are too wide. I can see that people would be very unhappy with having their power scaled back via nerfs. Therefore - I think a normal and heroic version is the way forward.
  • marvyn#9793 marvyn Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    My previous very long message was lost before posting, so here's a much shorter effort:

    Feedback Overview (short description of the proposed feedback): Tuning of content throughout the game needs to be adjusted.

    Levelling quests, old campaigns - all trivial content. No real challenge.

    Levelling dungeons -> Often populated with maximum level players meaning the content is trivial. As an example, I created a paladin tank alt a few months ago. It was pointless trying to learn to tank - keep aggro, use shield etc. - in content where there were players able to steamroll through without you. It's a bad experience for new players and they also don't get to learn how to tank, heal or do dps while avoiding damage.

    It's little surprise that players can reach maximum level and be not that great if they are not challenged at all in any content up to level 80.


    End-game dungeons -> There are basically the level 70 dungeons which have been repurposed and LOMM. LOMM was beaten by me and four guildmates in an afternoon. There's a balance to be had between content being accessible and being too easy, but I think the balance is currently off.

    Saying that - there are still many players in the end-game dungeons who are not ready to be there. Either they've not picked-up the skills of how to play their class, or, their item lvl is too low.

    There doesn't appear to be a bridge between getting to level 80 and being level 80 and being end-game dungeon ready. This is because to go from being level 80 to being end-game dungeon ready, you need to raise your enchants, work on your companions, on your bonding runestones... This all takes AD. So it forces players who are not ready to go into the dungeon and trial queue finders to get the AD to be ready.

    Let's be completely honest - you can barely meet the ilvl requirements, queue into a random trial, get Tiamat, have no clue what you are doing, die 20 times from standing in breath and still collect your rewards if the rest of your team is competent. This just isn't right. There's no penalty for failing repeatedly.


    Perhaps the power differential between maximum level players and new level 80 players is too high? But I can't imagine maximum level players would be happy to have their power nerfed!

    Maybe campaigns - rather than just being a grind that rewards boons - should also help with the character's power progression in some meaningful way for new players? Perhaps completing the campaign stages should reward AD?


    Or - maybe there needs to be normal and heroic versions of the end-game dungeons. But the heroic versions should be locked to anyone who hasn't completed the normal dungeon (e.g. without dying), and have a higher minimum ilvl. And the rewards should be appropriate - if you can get all your AD from doing the normal versions, then why would you run the heroic versions?


    Feedback Goal (what this feedback would target and accomplish):
    Better content tuned more appropriately for the range of players in the game while offering a reasonable progression curve.


    Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter): Would need to overhaul a lot of content, would need to implement 2 versions of all end-game dungeons.


    Risks & Concerns (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum)

  • Feedback Overview (short description of the proposed feedback)

    Two pieces here:

    - Xbox player and hardcore achievement hunter here (183/184 obtained). This game likes to add user-hostile achievements (+5 slayer rings, ToMM no death, glitched achievements, etc). It's also been claimed that achievements cannot be modified, this is blatantly untrue. Games have and will continue to do this.

    My feedback is threefold:

    1) Do xbox achievement checks on login/zone/etc instead of one-time or have a button press to re-check. I had to bring another character through Stardock because one glitched on me. Could you imagine getting a TOMM no death run and not getting the achievement? That would be frustrating.
    2) If you're going to add no-death achievements or challenging ones, make sure there's no exclusivity around class balance, or just don't make an achievement when you know the player base is this elitist. (I regularly get ignored in Yawning Portal for having a Barbie, totally maxed, understand mechanics, etc. They'd rather have a cw/hr/tr).
    3) Tweak achievements to have 'This or That' conditions to suit different play styles. E.g. 'Complete ToMM without Dying as a group -or- 'Complete ToMM without personally dying 10 times'. Where it's challenging, but still offers opportunity when you may not have solid peers.

    Feedback Goal (what this feedback would target and accomplish)

    Achievements should be tough, but no death runs are infuriating especially when there's some level of RNG/bugs involved (e.g. have heard of hands not being visible in ToMM phase 2). The goal is to a) allow non-meta classes get the achievements, b) allow players that may not always have the same 10-stack of people to get difficult achievements and c) give people their credit when they've already completed their objectives.

    Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter)

    - It requires adding the capability to re-check achievements, either through UI or on back-end.
    - It may require redesigning achievements (especially if you believe they cannot be modified, because they definitely can be, see Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege for example - https://www.trueachievements.com/n38072/rainbow-six-siege-achievement-changes).
    - And it naturally requires balancing non-meta classes such that the game doesn't get so exclusionary (my alliance has been pretty great about this, but outside it is not the case).


    Risks & Concerns (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum)

    Nothing, you literally make the people that didn't get the achievement happy, you make non-meta classes happy and you encourage more hunters to stick around. You might irritate the 1 person on TA that has the tomm no-death achievement. But 1 out of thousands?
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