Can you elaborate on this? Which class/s benefit more from gear buffs not being separated from class buffs?
Sure this is a simple matter of basic math.
Take the Wizard for example:
With the arcanist paragon we can have a near full time damage buff of 15% just with arcane mastery
Meanwhile the thaum paragon (assuming you run CC and SD Class features would be 2%)
So lets toss another buff on that say from the Demon Lord Set which averages to around 10%
then we can just use a bland base number, and exclude crit/ CA in order to extract the damage increase that the demon lord set is actually giving each of these characters
final damage = Base * (1+(class buffs + gear/ other buffs))
Thaum Without Demon Lord Set = 1150= 1000 * 1.15 Arcanist = 1250 = 1000 * (1+(.15 + .10) = 1000 * 1.25 - Demon Lord Set Increases damage by 8.7%
Thaum Without Demon Lord Set = 1020 = 1000 * 1.02 Thaum = 1120 = 1000 * (1+(.02 + .10) = 1000 * 1.12 - Demon Lord Set Increases damage by 9.2%
So classes that have more percent based damage buffs gets less effectiveness out of any other items in game that also give percent based damage buffs... be it weapon enchantments, gear, mount powers, or buffs granted by tanks or healers...
So the dev team could for example perfectly balance classes not taking other buffs items in the game into account, and at the end of the day we will see some pretty big disparities too.. and the more extreme end we could see some classes with 15% more DPS just because they were balanced to start with, and have fewer class based buffs.
The only real options to not have this disparity that I see are to either remove/ replace class based damage buffs entirely... So arcane mastery would need to be changed to say do an extra hit for x magnitude damage (same with seekers vengeance on the ranger, etc..), in this scenario the only Percent based buffs on a player could only be buffs that get applied to all allies, or through items that any character could equip.
Or the damage formula needs to be split out like:
Final Damage = Base * Class Buffs * Crit * CA * All Other Buffs
Splitting the formula like this ensures that "other buff" items are applied equally to all classes... and that people that are forced to run certain paths and powers are not being punished by the math engine in game.
This change does increase everyone's damage, but in no way does it further class balancing, in fact it more than likely makes it harder to balance classes.
Are you sure about that? Currently, from the tests i have done, barb with minimum of 25% dmg (100% upkeep) and 25% crit sev from its class buff is easily beating an arcanist in dps. I understand your point being made is that the more self buffs in a class, the less they benefit from other dmg% buffs. That is all fine, but right now (cannot speak for rangers and rogues) but barbs are easily with the most self buffs in their class and arcanist still has considerably more than what other classes have, is beating the best ST dmg dealer currently on live. If they then buff them even more by giving them X magnitude, directly correlated to their %dmg buff, then the disparity will be even bigger. They need to make sure that if they do make this change (for balance sake) then the other classes with less self buffs are compensated.
1
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Maelstrom of Chaos AoE Maelstrom of Chaos is hitting enemies outside of the AoE and it is hitting them using the OLD (read: very old) damage formula: 1000*4.5*1.0525=4736.25 (intended amount) (1000+171.760681)*5*1.0525=6166.39 Not only is it using the old formula with level based damage, it is also using an incorrect magnitude (5).
Are you sure about that? Currently, from the tests i have done, barb with minimum of 25% dmg (100% upkeep) and 25% crit sev from its class buff is easily beating an arcanist in dps. I understand your point being made is that the more self buffs in a class, the less they benefit from other dmg% buffs. That is all fine, but right now (cannot speak for rangers and rogues) but barbs are easily with the most self buffs in their class and arcanist still has considerably more than what other classes have, is beating the best ST dmg dealer currently on live. If they then buff them even more by giving them X magnitude, directly correlated to their %dmg buff, then the disparity will be even bigger. They need to make sure that if they do make this change (for balance sake) then the other classes with less self buffs are compensated.
We can see from a lot of bug reports that there is a ton of stuff not working properly on test right now. Also, you are comparing apples to oranges here, as well as including crit sev buff, which falls into a different place in the formula. The point I am making is that the damage formula as it stands makes class balance almost impossible to implement in a fashion that is maintainable.
Let's assume that all DPS classes get perfectly balanced including their damage buff percent mechanics, but excluding equipment, or other buff sources... as soon as those other buff sources are added to the equation we could see some class and even paragon disparities as wide as 15% differences in outgoing damage...
OR.. Let's assume that all DPS classes get perfectly balanced including all possible buff sources... Then players not running specific buffs will not be balanced, and any new item added to the game that gives a buff will not be applied equally, creating more imbalance.
This is super simple math, and easy to see where this logical path leads... it's not a good foundation, and it WILL lead to more class balancing problems unless there are other changes.. namely the removal of all class buffs, or a change to the formula.
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
3
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited October 2019
Arcane Empowerment is a 110% damage buff: (arcane power fields indicates where the daily was used).
@noworries#8859 Are you planning on releasing the Weapon echant exchange vendor for those who have boa Vorpal or even for those who have vorpal in general ?
Of course NOT - it was an ambush... and It worked out well.
I mean c'mon - you really belived that vorpal will last any longer being so ahead of the rest of enchants?
Really?
They forced you to change or build form scrach previously worthless enchantment becouse it turned out to be only worh using for any class. Now its time to nerf it - and guess what - wanna bet that after that nerf it will turn out that there gona be new BIS one?
Standard tactic pretty much since bonding nerf.... first one of them
Are you sure about that? Currently, from the tests i have done, barb with minimum of 25% dmg (100% upkeep) and 25% crit sev from its class buff is easily beating an arcanist in dps. I understand your point being made is that the more self buffs in a class, the less they benefit from other dmg% buffs. That is all fine, but right now (cannot speak for rangers and rogues) but barbs are easily with the most self buffs in their class and arcanist still has considerably more than what other classes have, is beating the best ST dmg dealer currently on live. If they then buff them even more by giving them X magnitude, directly correlated to their %dmg buff, then the disparity will be even bigger. They need to make sure that if they do make this change (for balance sake) then the other classes with less self buffs are compensated.
We can see from a lot of bug reports that there is a ton of stuff not working properly on test right now. Also, you are comparing apples to oranges here, as well as including crit sev buff, which falls into a different place in the formula. The point I am making is that the damage formula as it stands makes class balance almost impossible to implement in a fashion that is maintainable.
Let's assume that all DPS classes get perfectly balanced including their damage buff percent mechanics, but excluding equipment, or other buff sources... as soon as those other buff sources are added to the equation we could see some class and even paragon disparities as wide as 15% differences in outgoing damage...
OR.. Let's assume that all DPS classes get perfectly balanced including all possible buff sources... Then players not running specific buffs will not be balanced, and any new item added to the game that gives a buff will not be applied equally, creating more imbalance.
This is super simple math, and easy to see where this logical path leads... it's not a good foundation, and it WILL lead to more class balancing problems unless there are other changes.. namely the removal of all class buffs, or a change to the formula.
I think you didn't get what i was trying to say, eventhough, i purposely reiterated your point before i delve into my point. First of all, i agree with you about changing the class/other buffs to a separate category to maintain class balance on the long term. However, a good example of a class with self buffs is Barb, surely an equally geared arcanist should be doing more than the barb, as per according to your "simple maths equation". Since if they were balanced, the thing that will be hindering the barb's dmg will be that it does not benefit equally from other %dmg buffs as an arcanist does. Crit sev is important here because i am comparing a barb using all of its class resources vs an arcanist doing the same.
The simple fact i am trying to get across is that, if more tests prove that classes with more self buffs i.e. barb/ranger/rogue are doing more damage, at equal gear, than other classes, then surely compensating them with X magnitude as you say, will increase the disparity? Or is something this simple hard to understand?
The simple solution i proposed was that if this change was to go ahead, they would need to retest all of the classes to make sure they are somewhat balanced and those that are not, are compensated. Basically, not to treat the formula to be the end goal but rather a means to an end.
Why oh Why did you not do this before class balancing.
You might as well d call this The Great Un-Balancing of 2019.
Did to many barbies complain that they are just slightly stronger than other classes or something
There are more than BIS players in this game RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ???? FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
Why oh Why did you not do this before class balancing.
You might as well d call this The Great Un-Balancing of 2019.
Did to many barbies complain that they are just slightly stronger than other classes or something
this made me laugh. but honestly. put away your pitchforks til we know more from testers. might be ok. might not.. but it might be ok.
I laughed too...
So far everything I've tested on every single class I've tested appears to be broken... it's so daunting at this point that I stopped testing today and I am probably just going to come back into this in a few days using a google document defect tracking sheet and come at this in a more organized fashion. Or I'll just reach out to Rainer and see about doing a community collaboration for defect tracking.
Maybe I'm being overly negative, but this isn't a great start, and as several of us have pointed out, the damage formula as suggested isn't a good foundation to promote class balance.
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
Can you elaborate on this? Which class/s benefit more from gear buffs not being separated from class buffs?
Sure this is a simple matter of basic math.
Take the Wizard for example:
With the arcanist paragon we can have a near full time damage buff of 15% just with arcane mastery
Meanwhile the thaum paragon (assuming you run CC and SD Class features would be 2%)
So lets toss another buff on that say from the Demon Lord Set which averages to around 10%
then we can just use a bland base number, and exclude crit/ CA in order to extract the damage increase that the demon lord set is actually giving each of these characters
final damage = Base * (1+(class buffs + gear/ other buffs))
Thaum Without Demon Lord Set = 1150= 1000 * 1.15 Arcanist = 1250 = 1000 * (1+(.15 + .10) = 1000 * 1.25 - Demon Lord Set Increases damage by 8.7%
Thaum Without Demon Lord Set = 1020 = 1000 * 1.02 Thaum = 1120 = 1000 * (1+(.02 + .10) = 1000 * 1.12 - Demon Lord Set Increases damage by 9.2%
So classes that have more percent based damage buffs gets less effectiveness out of any other items in game that also give percent based damage buffs... be it weapon enchantments, gear, mount powers, or buffs granted by tanks or healers...
So the dev team could for example perfectly balance classes not taking other buffs items in the game into account, and at the end of the day we will see some pretty big disparities too.. and the more extreme end we could see some classes with 15% more DPS just because they were balanced to start with, and have fewer class based buffs.
The only real options to not have this disparity that I see are to either remove/ replace class based damage buffs entirely... So arcane mastery would need to be changed to say do an extra hit for x magnitude damage (same with seekers vengeance on the ranger, etc..), in this scenario the only Percent based buffs on a player could only be buffs that get applied to all allies, or through items that any character could equip.
Or the damage formula needs to be split out like:
Final Damage = Base * Class Buffs * Crit * CA * All Other Buffs
Splitting the formula like this ensures that "other buff" items are applied equally to all classes... and that people that are forced to run certain paths and powers are not being punished by the math engine in game.
This change does increase everyone's damage, but in no way does it further class balancing, in fact it more than likely makes it harder to balance classes.
Are you sure about that? Currently, from the tests i have done, barb with minimum of 25% dmg (100% upkeep) and 25% crit sev from its class buff is easily beating an arcanist in dps. I understand your point being made is that the more self buffs in a class, the less they benefit from other dmg% buffs. That is all fine, but right now (cannot speak for rangers and rogues) but barbs are easily with the most self buffs in their class and arcanist still has considerably more than what other classes have, is beating the best ST dmg dealer currently on live. If they then buff them even more by giving them X magnitude, directly correlated to their %dmg buff, then the disparity will be even bigger. They need to make sure that if they do make this change (for balance sake) then the other classes with less self buffs are compensated.
what test have you done show some act . as i see on act arcanist is doing way to much damage then anyone and can use more encounter/min then any class , so stop with this barb pitchfork i don't see how you haven't tested any other class and say barb is doing more . wait first for more fix to come .
Why oh Why did you not do this before class balancing.
You might as well d call this The Great Un-Balancing of 2019.
Did to many barbies complain that they are just slightly stronger than other classes or something
this made me laugh. but honestly. put away your pitchforks til we know more from testers. might be ok. might not.. but it might be ok.
I laughed too...
So far everything I've tested on every single class I've tested appears to be broken... it's so daunting at this point that I stopped testing today and I am probably just going to come back into this in a few days using a google document defect tracking sheet and come at this in a more organized fashion. Or I'll just reach out to Rainer and see about doing a community collaboration for defect tracking.
Maybe I'm being overly negative, but this isn't a great start, and as several of us have pointed out, the damage formula as suggested isn't a good foundation to promote class balance.
from what sharp has said, and what no worries has said it looks like it just shouldn't have been released with the 1 bug in place. wait until they update for testing probably the thing to do
Atropal artifact damage bonus bagged. Lol I want this - Max wizard damage: 7,3kk Ice knife. 2kk Dezintegrate. 2,3kk Repel Not english ACT log, but it's easy to check.
There is really gonna be no difference between a newbie (I dont have any problems with them at all! dont missunderstand!) and a veteran. Since as I see enchantments rank wont be important at all now (most of the stats comes from gear and companions). U walk in with new char, grab the free rank 8's from Barovia, do some ME and Zok and bamm 20k+ IL is there. Having all boons is irrelevant (barely gives anything), and the 30-40-50-60 mill AD which was spent through the years on different type of rank 15's enchants (brutals, radiants, darks, black ices, tacticals, runestones) + rank 14 weapon and armor enchants (dozens and hundreds of wards, marks, refining stones) are again nothing, just because someone thinkgs its gonna be better for the game.
NO IT WONT!
Its not progression when you have to farm for 7months every week the legacy quests just to upgrade 1 single weapon enchantment and get like 0,5% or 1% crit sev increase from upgrading rank 13 to 14 in this new "balance wave".
For what?
In the end of the day I will do 202K crit damage and not 200k with my warlock daily? And nobody can be sure that in 7 months u wont decide to cut down that 15% crit severity to 7,5% but add 2 another lvl on weapon enchantments which costs again millions of AD just to get back that x% crit sev what was taken aways from us before.
Ok this is preview and they have stated there are more builds in the pipeline. Go a and test and comeback with feedback before jumping on the whining train.
The damage formula is broken at live it needs a change so it is the same for all. If it wont be changed I for one will quit this game.
About complaining about Vorpal being "nerfed" , is that something you didn't expect? Also if you read how the new formula works it has to be "nerfed" as it will become totally OP if left as current.
I like the idea of these changes. Every class should have the same damage formula. That is the first step for balanced classes. I hope, that these changes will be implemented well (and fast). Thanks for working on class balancing. That is really important.
3
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
I personally am waiting for the next preview patch before checking anything. After I started checking stuff I realized there is too much bugged to be able to glean any useful information about balance, other than, "stuff is bugged."
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited October 2019
Currently on live, Bilethorn is a 10% damage increase for a Wizard: It is likely it is higher for other classes, since Wizard already has a large number of procs and conditions don't favour Wizard for proc enchantments.
Assuming you have 75 base crit severity, 25% from potions etc and 100% combat advantage, on live Vorpal is a: (1+1+1.5*0.5)/(1+1+0.5)-1 = 10% increase excluding the DoT, ~12% if you include it.
On preview, if you have 15% vorpal, 25% from potions and 75% base then it is a:
(1+1.15*0.5)/(1+1*0.5)-1=5% increase, excluding the DoT.
If you have Vorpal at 25% critical severity, it is a: (1+1.25*0.5)/(1+1*0.5)-1=8.3% increase, excluding the DoT.
In the second scenario, Vorpal is more or less even with Bilethorn, in the first, Bilethorn replaces Vorpal. In addition to this, Lightning is better than Bilethorn on trash, so you would have a situation where the new BiS is Bile (bosse) and Lightning (trash).
I personally am waiting for the next preview patch before checking anything. After I started checking stuff I realized there is too much bugged to be able to glean any useful information about balance, other than, "stuff is bugged."
Yeah it has no sense to waste time when the testing has to be done again. Sad panda
SHOOT, my post got deleted. I want to apologise for my previous wrong calcs on barb, my ACT was giving absurdly high nu
To put it briefly this time, i know there are far too many bugs in the game, but from my tests currently on wiz, barb and cleric dps, show that the disparity between the pure dps and non-meta dps have increased. The margin is lower live than it is on preview.
Just because everyone is doing more damage doesn't mean the margin is lower. All the non-meta dps, including the poor warlocks, you really need to think about the margin more than if you are able to complete TOMM with your damage. We will still be prejudiced for having lower dps. I just wish the dev's stop acting cowardly; come out and say that they intend for there to be a margin and state that margin. The margin currently is 220-230k dps for ST barb (equal gear) and 310-320k wiz (equal gear). This is about 30% margin in damage per second and i made sure that i tested the most skill ceiling barb i know, which did much more dps before and the disparity would have been max 20%.
Yes, but devs do need some time* to collect data to avoid overdoing anything in one or the other direction, wich would be an annoyance for those classes they overbuffed (in theory)...
* another 3-6 mods about
Somehow embarassing to acknowledge that maybe every third ambitious player on the forum can name those gaps by pretty solid numbers (approximately) and could maybe calculate/rebalance classes in one day, where a company needs 2-3 years to do so.
@noworries#8859 Are you planning on releasing the Weapon echant exchange vendor for those who have boa Vorpal or even for those who have vorpal in general ?
I really hope they don't. I was on board with it for m16 it was necessary then for the mass exodus to rads. but I wish even then that weapon and armor enchants had been left out of it. if they do it again they're just creating a never ending cycle of exchange. (And actually once you trade an item you can't morph it again anyway can you?) people need ot have to work for it and everyone was warned vorpal would get a nerf and regret it. here we are.. you need to be able to keep it so you can get something for it and have to work for the rest. if you have nothing to work for you go on to other games. right now this game has very little to work for.
Yes, but devs do need some time* to collect data to avoid overdoing anything in one or the other direction, wich would be an annoyance for those classes they overbuffed (in theory)...
* another 3-6 mods about
Somehow embarassing to acknowledge that maybe every third ambitious player on the forum can name those gaps by pretty solid numbers (approximately) and could maybe calculate/rebalance classes in one day, where a company needs 2-3 years to do so.
I don't think people understand the subject matter at hand must be meticulously scrutinised. I can speak as a dps cleric that nothing currently is bugged of my powers, at least those that i am using for my rotations. Seems to be the case for the Barb as well right now. Arcanist however has had issues in the past and even more so on preview, at this point and time.
The point is that if the disparity has been increased, then you can view this situation at 2 different angles, a): Wiz powers are bugged so they deal more damage ; b): Wiz powers are bugged so they deal less damage. The latter of the situation would mean the disparity is actually more than what we see and that itself is an issue.
Let's forget whatever i have stated above. Think about the fact that the pure dps classes were using a multiplicative formula for their damage whilst cleric and barb are a good example of using the additive (inferior formula for damage). You would imagine that the disparity would decrease because the damage increase for wiz with the new formula would be lower in comparison to cleric and barb, right? However, it seems that my cleric dps has increased by 25% (lower than the predicted increase of 33%). The wiz from what i see is getting exactly that. So if the classes were previously balanced equally and the difference in damage formula was what created this disparity, then why do i not see a reduction in disparity but instead the opposite? Smells fishy.
Now you're thinking this is not an issue and i believe so too, at the very moment so. But take for example the dev's slightly change the formula as mentioned by few players to balance classes on the long run, this would mean that they would actually have to either buff non-meta classes or nerf pure dps classes to bring them somewhat in line. The former not being an option from what we know of the dev's and the latter no one likes. The Formula must not be treated as the end goal.
Moral of the story is the non-meta classes cannot just be happy with an increase in overall damage, if it means that the disparity between their dps with pure dps classes is even bigger now. We will effectively be digging our own graves. So i pledge that all calculations that non-meta classes do, they do it in mind that they are comparing it with a pure dps class (preferably a wiz) .The dev's definitely and i mean 110% do want their to be a margin. I'm afraid they are leaning towards a 20-30% margin instead of the 5% minuscule margin everyone is hoping for.
1
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I can speak as a dps cleric that nothing currently is bugged of my powers, at least those that i am using for my rotations. Seems to be the case for the Barb as well right now. Arcanist however has had issues in the past and even more so on preview, at this point and time.
.
Nothing is bugged you say? I am pretty sure if I test Cleric I will find something, I just can't be bothered because so much is broken that ANY comparison at all is misleading. Gaining 100% increased damage on Wizard for using a Control power for example, or another 100% from using a daily. As for Barb:
Let's forget whatever i have stated above. Think about the fact that the pure dps classes were using a multiplicative formula for their damage whilst cleric and barb are a good example of using the additive (inferior formula for damage). You would imagine that the disparity would decrease because the damage increase for wiz with the new formula would be lower in comparison to cleric and barb, right? However, it seems that my cleric dps has increased by 25% (lower than the predicted increase of 33%). The wiz from what i see is getting exactly that. So if the classes were previously balanced equally and the difference in damage formula was what created this disparity, then why do i not see a reduction in disparity but instead the opposite? Smells fishy.
Now you're thinking this is not an issue and i believe so too, at the very moment so. But take for example the dev's slightly change the formula as mentioned by few players to balance classes on the long run, this would mean that they would actually have to either buff non-meta classes or nerf pure dps classes to bring them somewhat in line. The former not being an option from what we know of the dev's and the latter no one likes. The Formula must not be treated as the end goal.
Moral of the story is the non-meta classes cannot just be happy with an increase in overall damage, if it means that the disparity between their dps with pure dps classes is even bigger now. We will effectively be digging our own graves. So i pledge that all calculations that non-meta classes do, they do it in mind that they are comparing it with a pure dps class (preferably a wiz) .The dev's definitely and i mean 110% do want their to be a margin. I'm afraid they are leaning towards a 20-30% margin instead of the 5% minuscule margin everyone is hoping for.
They could have simply upped some of the additive selfbuffs by a notch. Right at the start of Mod 16. Some developers do small adjustments like that all the time, once a certain amount of balance has achieved. But it's all spoiled milk now anyways. NW devs seem to prefer larger changes which isn't bad per se either, it just always introduces... new "challenges"...
Both solutions have their advantages and disadvantages. Personally I'm in the swift and small changes camp, since you at least basically can't break anything... On the other hand the change to damage formula and unifying selfbuffs of all classes is definitely welcome even if it indeed looks like it's not _the_ solution for everything.
And yes, I agree 5% or less margin on sustained single target would be preferable. There will always be differences for other situations and obviously classes with 2 DPS paragons have a lot more tools available while the other classes powers are more situational or downright suboptimal in many cases (e.g. Sunburst, Bastion, Chains on a DPS Cleric even with massive changes they would probably still always be horrible)
I can speak as a dps cleric that nothing currently is bugged of my powers, at least those that i am using for my rotations. Seems to be the case for the Barb as well right now. Arcanist however has had issues in the past and even more so on preview, at this point and time.
.
Nothing is bugged you say? I am pretty sure if I test Cleric I will find something, I just can't be bothered because so much is broken that ANY comparison at all is misleading. Gaining 100% increased damage on Wizard for using a Control power for example, or another 100% from using a daily. As for Barb:
I main a dps cleric, i know my rotations and encounter far better than you think. I specifically stated that nothing is bugged with the encounters i used according to ACT, not that the class itself has no bugs at all. Barb on the other hand i do not main but from that ACT pic, it seems like a bug that reduces their damage. If so, you actually support my findings.
Comments
Warlock - Dust to Dust
The damage buff is broken too: 105% instead of 5%
(16 int, 6 soul sparks)
Warlock - Pillar of Power
The damage buff is broken too: 110% instead of 10%
(16 int)
Healing - critical severity
Healinging spells have the same issue as damage spells, the "+1" is missing there as well.
Ability scores - damage bonus
The damage bonus from this source is still multiplicative.
Are you sure about that? Currently, from the tests i have done, barb with minimum of 25% dmg (100% upkeep) and 25% crit sev from its class buff is easily beating an arcanist in dps. I understand your point being made is that the more self buffs in a class, the less they benefit from other dmg% buffs. That is all fine, but right now (cannot speak for rangers and rogues) but barbs are easily with the most self buffs in their class and arcanist still has considerably more than what other classes have, is beating the best ST dmg dealer currently on live. If they then buff them even more by giving them X magnitude, directly correlated to their %dmg buff, then the disparity will be even bigger. They need to make sure that if they do make this change (for balance sake) then the other classes with less self buffs are compensated.
Maelstrom of Chaos is hitting enemies outside of the AoE and it is hitting them using the OLD (read: very old) damage formula:
1000*4.5*1.0525=4736.25 (intended amount)
(1000+171.760681)*5*1.0525=6166.39
Not only is it using the old formula with level based damage, it is also using an incorrect magnitude (5).
Very happy people I bet.
Let's assume that all DPS classes get perfectly balanced including their damage buff percent mechanics, but excluding equipment, or other buff sources... as soon as those other buff sources are added to the equation we could see some class and even paragon disparities as wide as 15% differences in outgoing damage...
OR.. Let's assume that all DPS classes get perfectly balanced including all possible buff sources... Then players not running specific buffs will not be balanced, and any new item added to the game that gives a buff will not be applied equally, creating more imbalance.
This is super simple math, and easy to see where this logical path leads... it's not a good foundation, and it WILL lead to more class balancing problems unless there are other changes.. namely the removal of all class buffs, or a change to the formula.
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"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
(arcane power fields indicates where the daily was used).
I mean c'mon - you really belived that vorpal will last any longer being so ahead of the rest of enchants?
Really?
They forced you to change or build form scrach previously worthless enchantment becouse it turned out to be only worh using for any class. Now its time to nerf it - and guess what - wanna bet that after that nerf it will turn out that there gona be new BIS one?
Standard tactic pretty much since bonding nerf.... first one of them
The simple fact i am trying to get across is that, if more tests prove that classes with more self buffs i.e. barb/ranger/rogue are doing more damage, at equal gear, than other classes, then surely compensating them with X magnitude as you say, will increase the disparity? Or is something this simple hard to understand?
The simple solution i proposed was that if this change was to go ahead, they would need to retest all of the classes to make sure they are somewhat balanced and those that are not, are compensated. Basically, not to treat the formula to be the end goal but rather a means to an end.
You might as well d call this The Great Un-Balancing of 2019.
Did to many barbies complain that they are just slightly stronger than other classes or something
RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
So far everything I've tested on every single class I've tested appears to be broken... it's so daunting at this point that I stopped testing today and I am probably just going to come back into this in a few days using a google document defect tracking sheet and come at this in a more organized fashion. Or I'll just reach out to Rainer and see about doing a community collaboration for defect tracking.
Maybe I'm being overly negative, but this isn't a great start, and as several of us have pointed out, the damage formula as suggested isn't a good foundation to promote class balance.
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Lol I want this - Max wizard damage:
7,3kk Ice knife.
2kk Dezintegrate.
2,3kk Repel
Not english ACT log, but it's easy to check.
Having all boons is irrelevant (barely gives anything), and the 30-40-50-60 mill AD which was spent through the years on different type of rank 15's enchants (brutals, radiants, darks, black ices, tacticals, runestones) + rank 14 weapon and armor enchants (dozens and hundreds of wards, marks, refining stones) are again nothing, just because someone thinkgs its gonna be better for the game.
NO IT WONT!
Its not progression when you have to farm for 7months every week the legacy quests just to upgrade 1 single weapon enchantment and get like 0,5% or 1% crit sev increase from upgrading rank 13 to 14 in this new "balance wave".
For what?
In the end of the day I will do 202K crit damage and not 200k with my warlock daily? And nobody can be sure that in 7 months u wont decide to cut down that 15% crit severity to 7,5% but add 2 another lvl on weapon enchantments which costs again millions of AD just to get back that x% crit sev what was taken aways from us before.
The damage formula is broken at live it needs a change so it is the same for all. If it wont be changed I for one will quit this game.
About complaining about Vorpal being "nerfed" , is that something you didn't expect? Also if you read how the new formula works it has to be "nerfed" as it will become totally OP if left as current.
And the damage formula is bugged?
OMEGALOL
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It is likely it is higher for other classes, since Wizard already has a large number of procs and conditions don't favour Wizard for proc enchantments.
Assuming you have 75 base crit severity, 25% from potions etc and 100% combat advantage, on live Vorpal is a:
(1+1+1.5*0.5)/(1+1+0.5)-1 = 10% increase excluding the DoT, ~12% if you include it.
On preview, if you have 15% vorpal, 25% from potions and 75% base then it is a:
(1+1.15*0.5)/(1+1*0.5)-1=5% increase, excluding the DoT.
If you have Vorpal at 25% critical severity, it is a:
(1+1.25*0.5)/(1+1*0.5)-1=8.3% increase, excluding the DoT.
In the second scenario, Vorpal is more or less even with Bilethorn, in the first, Bilethorn replaces Vorpal. In addition to this, Lightning is better than Bilethorn on trash, so you would have a situation where the new BiS is Bile (bosse) and Lightning (trash).
I recommend leaving Vorpal at 25%.
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To put it briefly this time, i know there are far too many bugs in the game, but from my tests currently on wiz, barb and cleric dps, show that the disparity between the pure dps and non-meta dps have increased. The margin is lower live than it is on preview.
Just because everyone is doing more damage doesn't mean the margin is lower. All the non-meta dps, including the poor warlocks, you really need to think about the margin more than if you are able to complete TOMM with your damage. We will still be prejudiced for having lower dps. I just wish the dev's stop acting cowardly; come out and say that they intend for there to be a margin and state that margin. The margin currently is 220-230k dps for ST barb (equal gear) and 310-320k wiz (equal gear). This is about 30% margin in damage per second and i made sure that i tested the most skill ceiling barb i know, which did much more dps before and the disparity would have been max 20%.
* another 3-6 mods about
Somehow embarassing to acknowledge that maybe every third ambitious player on the forum can name those gaps by pretty solid numbers (approximately) and could maybe calculate/rebalance classes in one day, where a company needs 2-3 years to do so.
The point is that if the disparity has been increased, then you can view this situation at 2 different angles, a): Wiz powers are bugged so they deal more damage ; b): Wiz powers are bugged so they deal less damage. The latter of the situation would mean the disparity is actually more than what we see and that itself is an issue.
Let's forget whatever i have stated above. Think about the fact that the pure dps classes were using a multiplicative formula for their damage whilst cleric and barb are a good example of using the additive (inferior formula for damage). You would imagine that the disparity would decrease because the damage increase for wiz with the new formula would be lower in comparison to cleric and barb, right? However, it seems that my cleric dps has increased by 25% (lower than the predicted increase of 33%). The wiz from what i see is getting exactly that. So if the classes were previously balanced equally and the difference in damage formula was what created this disparity, then why do i not see a reduction in disparity but instead the opposite? Smells fishy.
Now you're thinking this is not an issue and i believe so too, at the very moment so. But take for example the dev's slightly change the formula as mentioned by few players to balance classes on the long run, this would mean that they would actually have to either buff non-meta classes or nerf pure dps classes to bring them somewhat in line. The former not being an option from what we know of the dev's and the latter no one likes. The Formula must not be treated as the end goal.
Moral of the story is the non-meta classes cannot just be happy with an increase in overall damage, if it means that the disparity between their dps with pure dps classes is even bigger now. We will effectively be digging our own graves. So i pledge that all calculations that non-meta classes do, they do it in mind that they are comparing it with a pure dps class (preferably a wiz) .The dev's definitely and i mean 110% do want their to be a margin. I'm afraid they are leaning towards a 20-30% margin instead of the 5% minuscule margin everyone is hoping for.
Both solutions have their advantages and disadvantages. Personally I'm in the swift and small changes camp, since you at least basically can't break anything... On the other hand the change to damage formula and unifying selfbuffs of all classes is definitely welcome even if it indeed looks like it's not _the_ solution for everything.
And yes, I agree 5% or less margin on sustained single target would be preferable. There will always be differences for other situations and obviously classes with 2 DPS paragons have a lot more tools available while the other classes powers are more situational or downright suboptimal in many cases (e.g. Sunburst, Bastion, Chains on a DPS Cleric even with massive changes they would probably still always be horrible)