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  • sax1993sax1993 Posts: 117Member Arc User
    > @thefabricant said:
    > (Quote)
    > It is changed for healers as well, just not clarified in the post.

    Awesome, thanks for clearing that up I’m on console and a lot of my pally friends were uptight about this change as they thought it was a nerf to healing again but now I can give them peace of mind that it really isn’t since they are changing how it works :)
    Main: Devana HR (Pathfinder Trapper)
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    IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BUFFS!

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  • coolgor28#5062 coolgor28 Posts: 12Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    sobi#1980 said:

    I can speak as a dps cleric that nothing currently is bugged of my powers, at least those that i am using for my rotations. Seems to be the case for the Barb as well right now. Arcanist however has had issues in the past and even more so on preview, at this point and time.

    .

    Nothing is bugged you say? I am pretty sure if I test Cleric I will find something, I just can't be bothered because so much is broken that ANY comparison at all is misleading. Gaining 100% increased damage on Wizard for using a Control power for example, or another 100% from using a daily. As for Barb:
    kovu#3307 said:



    Battle Fury on Barbarian

    <img src="https://media.disco

  • d3cepti0n#1453 d3cepti0n Posts: 68Member Arc User
    edited October 7

    > @d3cepti0n#1453 said:

    > (Quote)

    > It's usually logical for games to focus balance around the latest addition to the game, in this case, ToMM. Considering ToMM's difficulty and clear rate compared to the rest of the content though, I'll address LoMM, mSP, ToNG, etc.

    >

    > Any geared dps with half a hand would force Arcturia, Nostura, Orcus and other annoying bosses™ into phase before finishing their rotation. It doesn't really matter how potent your damage is, you're never going to use it fully; I'm guessing that's your first argument.

    > While that's true, it's irrelevant to class balancing. There are 2 ways to go about balancing with a type of content in mind. You either balance for the whole community, or the target audience.

    > Take LoMM, for example. IL 20k+. That would mean that there are ~3 groups of people running LoMM, the barely equipped ones (20-21k IL), the "target audience" for LoMM (21k - 23k), and the endgame players (23k+).

    > The first 2 groups don't have the damage to force phases on most bosses, so, in those cases, the concept of an Arcanist CW having great ST damage and not so good AoE stands. You win on the one, you lose on the other.

    > On the last group, it really doesn't matter. Saying other classes "outdps CW" because you are dps racing in LoMM, as a 24k CW vs a 24k HR/TR means nothing.

    >

    > Finally, there's the sole concept of AoE vs ST. When was the last time your group wiped to a camp? When was the last time people abandoned the instance because you couldn't get past a group of mobs? By design, being good at ST is more useful than being good in AoE. Mobs are supposed to fill the gaps between bosses, not the other way around.

    >

    > Considering range; Having range is (also by design) more advantageous than not. However, due to the fact that in NW having range is useless more often than not (since you'll be forced into melee range for various reasons either way), losing too much as a tradeoff for having something you can't use would be unfair, yes. Thankfully, that's not the case, at all. A CW is just as tanky as any other dps class.

    > At bis, you can have 80k defense, 5x tacticals, bark, 320k HP and 50ishK of the other defensive stats without sacrificing an inch of your dps. Saying "ew, defense doesnt add to my damage" and staying on the red areas to get an extra hit off for paingiver doesn't make your class squishy, sorry.

    >

    > To clarify; I'm not saying CW needs nerfs, buffs, or that the game is balanced in any way. My opinion is for another post. I'm saying that your reasoning behind your opinion is not accurate.



    Sorry m8, the developers listened to community feedback, and besides the Trial, like ALL of the rest of this content is just a filler.. i mean u queue up and u just run till the end to pick up the chest.. if you truly find Dungeons in nw being difficult, i think the answer is simple, you are problably playing on nintendo or someth.. even the Trial is easy and can be done with competent players, not necessarly 6x wizards, but with competent players nevertheless.. so i dont know how they can balance classes based on content, when content is to easy and classes are too strong.

    nvm...
    Post edited by d3cepti0n#1453 on
    ~ The world is based on the art of deception. ~
  • animewatcha#6533 animewatcha Posts: 77Member Arc User
    5 ways toward helping to balance classes based on content.

    1. Is there a dps check phase like mimics at Arturia, then....
    DON'T NERF THE DPS.
    2. Is there a Healing check phase like the butterfly quick death, then..
    DON'T NERF THE HEALERS.
    3. Is there scaling?
    REMOVE THE SCALING.
    4. Does the boss an no-revival- move that kills players regardless of HP.
    REMOVE IT.
    5. You know that revival limit?
    REMOVE THE 5 TIME LIMIT. If players want to burn through scrolls on the boss fight less them. Eventually they will have to get more through Tradebars or AD.
  • d3cepti0n#1453 d3cepti0n Posts: 68Member Arc User

    5 ways toward helping to balance classes based on content.

    1. Is there a dps check phase like mimics at Arturia, then....
    DON'T NERF THE DPS.
    2. Is there a Healing check phase like the butterfly quick death, then..
    DON'T NERF THE HEALERS.
    3. Is there scaling?
    REMOVE THE SCALING.
    4. Does the boss an no-revival- move that kills players regardless of HP.
    REMOVE IT.
    5. You know that revival limit?
    REMOVE THE 5 TIME LIMIT. If players want to burn through scrolls on the boss fight less them. Eventually they will have to get more through Tradebars or AD.

    So... make runs impossible to fail?
    ~ The world is based on the art of deception. ~
  • animewatcha#6533 animewatcha Posts: 77Member Arc User
    edited October 8
    Not impossible. If people want to burn through scrolls, that is their choice. Removal of instant kills allows the others attacks and dungeons to be performed more times in a shortened period of time allowing for people to potentially pick up on the signs sooner. Removal of the no-revival-kills makes for less attacks to be bugged. Less bugs for older dungeons, especially ravenloft ( premiered the K-team mechanics and the main testing ground for this scaling c r a p ).
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Posts: 96Member Arc User

    5 ways toward helping to balance classes based on content.

    1. Is there a dps check phase like mimics at Arturia, then....
    DON'T NERF THE DPS.
    2. Is there a Healing check phase like the butterfly quick death, then..
    DON'T NERF THE HEALERS.
    3. Is there scaling?
    REMOVE THE SCALING.
    4. Does the boss an no-revival- move that kills players regardless of HP.
    REMOVE IT.
    5. You know that revival limit?
    REMOVE THE 5 TIME LIMIT. If players want to burn through scrolls on the boss fight less them. Eventually they will have to get more through Tradebars or AD.


    You already know that some classes are way ahead of others when it comes to DPS, and I think this topic will come to that. I know the nerf in Vorpal will have negative impacts for healers, but it was predictable that this enchant would also fit in as there is a very big difference in the damage it does compared to other enchants. And if this will affect the Healer's, I hope they will be compensated in some way.

    On the third point of your comment, I am one of those who advocate scale in dungeons and maps as well. I just don't think it's fair to make a Malabog Castle and win a Wheel of Elements Artifact, and that item hasn't been leveled 80. It also bothers me to go to Bryan Shander and be able to perform a solo BHE, as the name implies. Big Heroic Encounter and should be as challenging as it was at the time you launched the campaign.

    I am against removing the hit kill mechanic. Knowing that this exists and that if you do not know or do not perform this mechanic perhaps the whole group fails, gives an extra emotion.

    I think that the maximum scroll limit should be able to be used at most 3 and without being able to revive more than 1x as it used to be. This makes the game harder, and difficulty for me is the thrill of playing. If I fail, I will seek to improve either the mechanic or my equipment knowledge so that it does not occur.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 266Member Arc User
    The problem is that there is a huge difference between a skill ceiling player and a bad player. The majority of the players are average and some may seem good because of their gear covering up their lack of skill. The skilled players however are a minority and for who, even TOMM is presumably not challenging enough.

    The dev's have to think about the majority, eventhough TOMM was aimed at a specific population of players, that was because they were yet to be catered.

    Damage as it currently stands, is way more than what is required for any dungeon, regardless of your class. This is for a skilled player, not necessarily for a end game player.

    BUT like i keep reiterating, this post discussion should not be about if there is enough damage to beat TOMM or etc, but rather if the margin is close enough. It has been proven that non-meta can also complete TOMM, albiet not as effectively as pure dps. But after this patch, hopefully that margin will get lowered to an acceptable level.
  • harnrimharnrim Posts: 10Member Arc User

    sax1993 said:

    Will you guys be changing the formula for healing as well when it comes to critical severity? Because this will change to Vorpal will hit healers harder than DPS if that’s the case

    It is changed for healers as well, just not clarified in the post.
    Can you, or one of the devs, clarify how it changed?
  • violencebf22violencebf22 Posts: 25Member Arc User
    Barbarians need to reduce passive ability from 25% crit power to 20% Or other classes will whine. Except rangers.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Posts: 2,926Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    harnrim said:

    sax1993 said:

    Will you guys be changing the formula for healing as well when it comes to critical severity? Because this will change to Vorpal will hit healers harder than DPS if that’s the case

    It is changed for healers as well, just not clarified in the post.
    Can you, or one of the devs, clarify how it changed?
    Not him nor a dev, but the outgoing healing is separated from the critical severity.
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  • commanderdata002commanderdata002 Posts: 303Member Arc User
    edited October 8


    CW must be useful in party. At trash we are useless ...

    I second this. Wizards are embarrassing nowadays for trash due to lack of mobility, slow encounters and low damaging at-wills.
    Now they will lose their good ST dmg so it wouldn't take to be a mathematician to predict what will happen outside Tomm...

    stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 266Member Arc User
    edited October 8


    Listen.. i ask you this, if there is 1 class played by 1 single player which manages to be top dps 100% of his runs against any other Dps class, but this player is the only one doing that, but the rest of players that play the same class will not even reach top 3 dps, tell me what does this tell you about the average? Are you saying that the class should perform good for average players? But in a case where this average player is running non dps gear... see this is one of the variables that is a true fact in this game...



    Currently aslong as you have AD, and you gear to BiS any DpS class , you should be able to get the best out of it, because its not that difficult to play these classes in 2019-2020.. imo it doesnt matter that much who reigns the #1 , but i am realistic to say that with these dmg formula being changed it will require time to actually provide some feedback, theres too many bugs on preview.. but hey i can say on LiVE that currently even the weakest DPS is overperforming most of the content with the exception of the trial.

    I think you have just misunderstood the whole purpose of this damage formula, at least according to what i believe. I repeat, i do not honestly believe the dev's are putting effort into this formula to balance all classes for TOMM or even other content. Content wise, all classes are perfectly fine with average gear and a good player let alone a skill ceiling player, except for TOMM where you need BiS gear and above average player. But you're telling me that a skill ceiling fighter/lock or even a barb can match a skill ceiling wiz/rogue/ranger ST dps? I think not. But i won't be surprised if they did more than what people are claiming. That's why aoe damage should never be compared because your damage will depend on the amount of mobs you hit. But i do believe, especially after looking at these forums, that players expect way too many buffs, not even realising that they might not be fully utilising their class. I have few totally and i mean absolutely garbage abilities as dps cleric, but i am not asking for a buff to each and everyone of them. You have to do with what you have. That variable i am sure the dev's understand so no need to worry about that.

    As for AOE, most of us non-meta classes have sufficient damage and arcanist is a great example of lacking in AOE. If all classes are balanced on ST dps, then they should also be balanced over AOE. Rangers are perfectly fine with it, barb, cleric and lock are also fine, not sure about fighters. I've even seen rogues match my AOE as dps cleric, and lower gear than me. But like we all know, arcanist is obviously lacking at it. Thaum might have to stay useless like the other paragons of ranger/rogue, until all 3 paragons are revised.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Posts: 706Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    brandemis said:

    if vorpal is gonna be nerfed , the dev are gonna allow us to change it for another one?

    Why? Vorpal will still be BIS for dpsing.

    And one thing (between you and me): Even if they nerf vorpal to the worst enchantment of all, dont spect the exchange vendor.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
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    Undermontain Survivor
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 266Member Arc User


    CW must be useful in party. At trash we are useless ...

    I second this. Wizards are embarrassing nowadays for trash due to lack of mobility, slow encounters and low damaging at-wills.
    Now they will lose their good ST dmg so it wouldn't take to be a mathematician to predict what will happen outside Tomm...

    This wiz nerf agenda is another thing going on. Wiz will not be doing less damage, infact all classes are definitely going to do more dps than live. However, other classes will be doing closer to wiz dps after this change hits live. If anything, you should consider it a buff for those classes for having to use a inferior formula for months.
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 230Member Arc User
    edited October 8


    Even if you tested out all 7 classes with DPS roles and found Vorpal perform best for all them, which I highly doubt at the least, it's still worthwhile to put an exchange vendor in for those who would have chosen a different enchantment if Vorpal weren't as aggressively overperforming as it did before.

    And just because you personally don't expect it to happen, that does not mean you shouldn't ask for it. Otherwise, if people just don't say out what they want, how the developers expected to know?

    So you think that every time they nerf an enchantment they will put the exchange vendor back? really? please dont be so naive.
    So... as thought, you have not based your assumption for Vorpal on anything and ignored that part. You also ignored every other part as I did not say they definitely will, but they should and we should ask for it. And IN THIS CASE, they should. No one said they always should, just you. But you actually mean that they never should, as we shouldn't even ask for things like this.

    Maybe read the comment before you reply. It's rumored to be helpful.
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Posts: 110Member Arc User
    edited October 8


    Vorpal will be changed to be 20% at rank 14 with this same update.

    terramak said:


    Stat Balance Changes
    Crit Severity and Combat Advantage now each multiply all damage dealt, instead of adding their values to each other and other certain damage buffs.

    • Before, a player with 100% Crit Severity and 100% Combat Advantage (100k more than the enemy's Awareness) would deal 3x as much damage when they critically strike with combat advantage active.
    • Now, that same player would deal 4x as much damage: Double from their 100% Crit Severity, and double that from their Combat Advantage.
    Not sure if I miss something, but according to last statement and doing some (really inaccurate, correct me if I'm wrong) math, assuming max multiplier from crit+CA goes up to 4x from 3x, was expecting vorpal bonus going 50/4*3=37.5, lets round it to 35%
    Is the 20% due to the will to balance weapon enchantments nerfing vorpal or to something else?
    Just curious as for what I got most of this patch changes are related to neutralize or mitigate the effects of changes in damage formula.
    Ty.
  • akemnosakemnos Posts: 577Member Arc User


    Even if you tested out all 7 classes with DPS roles and found Vorpal perform best for all them, which I highly doubt at the least, it's still worthwhile to put an exchange vendor in for those who would have chosen a different enchantment if Vorpal weren't as aggressively overperforming as it did before.

    And just because you personally don't expect it to happen, that does not mean you shouldn't ask for it. Otherwise, if people just don't say out what they want, how the developers expected to know?

    So you think that every time they nerf an enchantment they will put the exchange vendor back? really? please dont be so naive.
    So... as thought, you have not based your assumption for Vorpal on anything and ignored that part. You also ignored every other part as I did not say they definitely will, but they should and we should ask for it. And IN THIS CASE, they should. No one said they always should, just you. But you actually mean that they never should, as we shouldn't even ask for things like this.

    Maybe read the comment before you reply. It's rumored to be helpful.
    It really doesn't matter if Darth has tested all 7 classes. if an Exchange vendor is brought back than everyone will switch out their vorpals for whatever is tested to be the next best thing. Then when that inevitably gets nerfed everyone who switched will once again clamor and complain if the exchange vendor is not brought back



  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Posts: 706Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited October 8


    Even if you tested out all 7 classes with DPS roles and found Vorpal perform best for all them, which I highly doubt at the least, it's still worthwhile to put an exchange vendor in for those who would have chosen a different enchantment if Vorpal weren't as aggressively overperforming as it did before.

    And just because you personally don't expect it to happen, that does not mean you shouldn't ask for it. Otherwise, if people just don't say out what they want, how the developers expected to know?

    So you think that every time they nerf an enchantment they will put the exchange vendor back? really? please dont be so naive.
    So... as thought, you have not based your assumption for Vorpal on anything and ignored that part. You also ignored every other part as I did not say they definitely will, but they should and we should ask for it. And IN THIS CASE, they should. No one said they always should, just you. But you actually mean that they never should, as we shouldn't even ask for things like this.

    Maybe read the comment before you reply. It's rumored to be helpful.
    Seems that you dont know how things work... just trying to saving you time. But ok, keep wasting your energies. You can try to ask for a refund when you paid for an item and they nerf it too. I bet you will have a surprise.

    Better try to learn from old people!
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
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  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 230Member Arc User
    edited October 8
    akemnos said:


    Even if you tested out all 7 classes with DPS roles and found Vorpal perform best for all them, which I highly doubt at the least, it's still worthwhile to put an exchange vendor in for those who would have chosen a different enchantment if Vorpal weren't as aggressively overperforming as it did before.

    And just because you personally don't expect it to happen, that does not mean you shouldn't ask for it. Otherwise, if people just don't say out what they want, how the developers expected to know?

    So you think that every time they nerf an enchantment they will put the exchange vendor back? really? please dont be so naive.
    So... as thought, you have not based your assumption for Vorpal on anything and ignored that part. You also ignored every other part as I did not say they definitely will, but they should and we should ask for it. And IN THIS CASE, they should. No one said they always should, just you. But you actually mean that they never should, as we shouldn't even ask for things like this.

    Maybe read the comment before you reply. It's rumored to be helpful.
    It really doesn't matter if Darth has tested all 7 classes. if an Exchange vendor is brought back than everyone will switch out their vorpals for whatever is tested to be the next best thing. Then when that inevitably gets nerfed everyone who switched will once again clamor and complain if the exchange vendor is not brought back

    Well, the point of the nerf is to get Vorpal in-line with the other enchantments. I'm pretty sure that for certain classes, Vorpal will just stay the best, while other classes will work better with a more utility or just other DPS weapon enchantments. Because classes, even if they got greatly simplified, have inherent differences and that is affecting how much they can benefit from crit severity. That's why the percentage is being discussed, to make other enchantments viable, but not neuter Vorpal. Or at least, that what should happen. But if they do just nerf it into oblivion then I definitely expect it to be changed for something that just not became useless. Because if they just break everything players are working for months, what's the point of getting it?

    I agree with you that most player will go and change for the new "best" and I am sure that a huge amount of them will just trade in for an actually worse, but a "new" weapon enchantment. That happened when GWF's and other went for Lightning, because CW's were doing insane damage with it and they wanted to do the same. But a lot of them didn't utilize it and just got their DPS lowered by their own desire.

    For note, I kept my Feytouched in mod16, because I did not like that the exchange vendor bounds to the new enchantment. But I think that a lot of player found it highly helpful when they faced a ton of change and I had a lot of player checking in mod16 a month later who were disappointed when they found out they cannot do that anymore.

    Honestly, even the concept of nerf will dump Vorpal's price into the ground before it's even tested out on live, so I probably keep it and just farm out a third one.

  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 230Member Arc User
    akemnos said:


    Even if you tested out all 7 classes with DPS roles and found Vorpal perform best for all them, which I highly doubt at the least, it's still worthwhile to put an exchange vendor in for those who would have chosen a different enchantment if Vorpal weren't as aggressively overperforming as it did before.

    And just because you personally don't expect it to happen, that does not mean you shouldn't ask for it. Otherwise, if people just don't say out what they want, how the developers expected to know?

    So you think that every time they nerf an enchantment they will put the exchange vendor back? really? please dont be so naive.
    So... as thought, you have not based your assumption for Vorpal on anything and ignored that part. You also ignored every other part as I did not say they definitely will, but they should and we should ask for it. And IN THIS CASE, they should. No one said they always should, just you. But you actually mean that they never should, as we shouldn't even ask for things like this.

    Maybe read the comment before you reply. It's rumored to be helpful.
    It really doesn't matter if Darth has tested all 7 classes. if an Exchange vendor is brought back than everyone will switch out their vorpals for whatever is tested to be the next best thing. Then when that inevitably gets nerfed everyone who switched will once again clamor and complain if the exchange vendor is not brought back

    And for note's sake: I'm not demanding it to happen. I'm just giving a feedback on a feedback forum as the originator did before Darth decided that it's somehow a ridiculous idea to begin with and we just shouldn't give feedbacks on a feedback forum.
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 230Member Arc User
    edited October 8
    rjc9000 said:




    I agree with you that most player will go and change for the new "best" and I am sure that a huge amount of them will just trade in for an actually worse, but a "new" weapon enchantment. That happened when GWF's and other went for Lightning, because CW's were doing insane damage with it and they wanted to do the same. But a lot of them didn't utilize it and just got their DPS lowered by their own desire.

    This was actually because of the way proc based enchants worked.

    As a whole, proc based enchants gave you the best DPS increase if your ability magnitude was low relative to your weapon damage and if you could proc the enchant many many times.

    The only two classes back in Mod 11.5/12 that fit this mold were CW (lowest weapon damage and low base damage due to being the proc class on all abilities except for Disintegrate and Ice Knife) and GWF (before you start: GWF did have the highest weapon damage, but strangely had some of the lowest base damage in the game; it was only good because of self buffs, which also buffed the weapon enchant damage).

    Lightning's niche was, essentially, the more enemies you hit in a single attack, the better it was. The two classes you mentioned had good tools that procced enchants multiple times and hit many enemies: CW had Icy Terrain and Conduit of Ice while GWF had Weapon Master's Strike.

    All the other classes had surprisingly high ability damage relative to weapon damage or had strange quirks with their proccing abilities. For example, GF also had WMS back in the day, but it wasn't as effective due to not procing enchants once per cast, rather than twice per cast like GWF.
    I remember how it worked for CW and heard about the WMS "overproccing" (mostly because they refused and might still not have changed it into 1 effect 1 proc for the GWFas on the CW), but the point is that I had a lot of GWF who changed into Lightning from Dread, did the same thing as if it had Dread and did horrible damage as it was not Dread. And even on bosses, breaking the ice on Drufi was horrible and even without it, Feytouched worked way more favorably for bosses as useless adds did not sweep away the 33% bonus and something with the syphon misbehaving on the Feytouched that I do no remember anymore. A ton of stuff changed.

    Uhm, the short version is, most of them just changed to Lightning not because it was better for the style they played, but they were told it was better. It's like when a patch broke the 2 DC 2 support 1 DPS formula, but people did it anyway because they read on the outdated forums that it was the way to run it.
  • bigdragon#4214 bigdragon Posts: 14Member Arc User
    > @violencebf22 said:
    > Barbarians need to reduce passive ability from 25% crit power to 20% Or other classes will whine. Except rangers.

    Ok do this... But give 3 attack companions slot at barb dps
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