I think the solution to all of this has been staring us in the face all this time.
So again, lets just make everyone a hybrid. I am sure cryptic can, with some help from existing D&D 5e rules, come up with a Swordmage option for Wizards (tank), a Swashbuckler option for Rogues (also Tank( and a ..well...Ranger option for Rangers as healing is part of the basic D&D ranger makeup.
But that would mean getting rid of 3 dps paragons and replacing them with either tank/healer. I don't think a company such as cryptic with limited resources will take this risk.
People will and always will moan. I just don't understand that why people would want to do same dps as pure dps classes and still be able to fulfill another role that is also at the top of the charts. This would require a plethora of resources to make sure all classes are balanced in all spheres. Therefore, if there did exist a margin, it could lean towards the pure dps classes a bit.
You do not want all those wiz's, rangers and rogues crying later on. It's a bloody loohole that people love getting into.
Btw i am replying to you but most of what i said is aimed at others xD.
The thing is, if all classes have equal dps, noone gets excluded from groups
If u have a margin then the "worse" classes, will most likely be excluded.
No margin has its own benefits but tbh there is no such thing as no margin at all. Even the top 3 dps classes with multiplicative self buffs to different dps. They could balance classes so that the margin could lean towards pure dps and it shouldn't be enough to discourage any other dps class. Pretty sure when they make non-meta do more dps than pure classes because balance is impossible, you'll see influx of players playing these classes. Then back to square 1 with being fair and more changes.
Did you factor in the players' use or lack of slotted companion bonuses? Did you factor in the players' use or lack of mount bonuses? Did you factor in the players' use or lack of consumables (foods. elixers, potions)? Did you factor in the players' use or lack of armor modifications? Did you factor in the players' combined quality of companion gear, runes, artifact equipment, artifacts, enchantments, and Insignia?
Its the same complaint, isn't it? (/facepalm)
"Class balance."
But is this really an issue of class balance or just a lack of adequately prepared/geared players queuing up for something that is too over-powered for them?
Neverwinter was not meant to be a game where you pick up a stick to hit a dragon over the head and get a "Congratulations! You win!" notification. Character growth and item use is essential to this game. If you using an underdeveloped character, you're guaranteed to face a (mistakenly) perceived "class balance" issue.
Ever since Mod 16 launched, I have not queued up for any content above intermediate because I recognize that I am simply not prepared to properly run that content. It is unavoidable that in some cases it isn't so much an issue of "class balance" as it is that you are a tissue-paper warrior. And yes, folks... while I may sound like a broken record, there is no avoiding the glaring truth that THIS is why we needed power-share in the game - so classes are buffing each other to eliminate any imbalance! Power-share was in reality the ballast that kept this game upright!
"Talent is a flame. Genius is a fire." - Sir Bernard Williams
Did you factor in the players' use or lack of slotted companion bonuses? Did you factor in the players' use or lack of mount bonuses? Did you factor in the players' use or lack of consumables (foods. elixers, potions)? Did you factor in the players' use or lack of armor modifications? Did you factor in the players' combined quality of companion gear, runes, artifact equipment, artifacts, enchantments, and Insignia?
Its the same complaint, isn't it? (/facepalm)
"Class balance."
But is this really an issue of class balance or just a lack of adequately prepared/geared players queuing up for something that is too over-powered for them?
Neverwinter was not meant to be a game where you pick up a stick to hit a dragon over the head and get a "Congratulations! You win!" notification. Character growth and item use is essential to this game. If you using an underdeveloped character, you're guaranteed to face a (mistakenly) perceived "class balance" issue.
Ever since Mod 16 launched, I have not queued up for any content above intermediate because I recognize that I am simply not prepared to properly run that content. It is unavoidable that in some cases it isn't so much an issue of "class balance" as it is that you are a tissue-paper warrior. And yes, folks... while I may sound like a broken record, there is no avoiding the glaring truth that THIS is why we needed power-share in the game - so classes are buffing each other to eliminate any imbalance! Power-share was in reality the ballast that kept this game upright!
yes i took that all into account, when i make comments regarding class balance, im always speaking about completly BIS characters performing either on thestdummies or in the newest endgame content.
Hmm some people here seem to have lousy sarcasm detection skills.. maybe that should be included as a new class skill.... when we turn all the classes into hybrid classes..
And as for the "Did you factor in..." litany..
Did YOU factor in the concept that we are not utterly logic deficient? Did you really consider that we may actually know what we're doing and saying? It is always good to have people recognize their own deficiencies, but it would be nice if they did not project them on the entire world at large.
(yeah I know tom's answer was already enough, but this one just chapped my hide.. )
...about hybrid, all i meant was "multi-role capable" and if that is not an advantage at hand then i am sorry, me and you are on completelyseparate page. ...having 2 roles is always a benefit. If not for you, then for those who use both effectively... ...2 role advantage is set in stone... ...you still can't justify that having always the option of 2 roles is not an advantage.
Please explain what exactly this advantage is.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
But anyway, some semantics, in NW there are no Hybrid classes. A hybrid class is a class that can do 2 or more roles to some extent, at the same time. In NW there are classes that can swap roles, but this is not a hybrid class.
Unless there is more in depth solution, there will be disparity, if all roles equal (of the same role) dual role classes will always have advantage. A player will always choose a class that can do two viable (and equal to others for those roles) roles, instead of a class that can do only one.
On the other hand, if a single role class is better in a role, than a dual role class when in the same role, the dual role class has no reason of existence. There will be bias towards the better class in that role.
An obvious solution is to change the "dps only" classes to have a secondary viable role, this can be one of the current, healer, tank, or adding a new support category, if it is mitigation, debuff, CC, and so on.
Another option was make one role select-able as primary (for dual role classes), this role will get buffed to be on par with the single role classes, for example 10% more outging damage, 10% more hp, 10% more outgoing healing, etc.. With one role on par, the other will be slightly behind. Having a cost or cooldown to this selection on one hand creates a role which is on par and on the other mitigates the benefit over single role classes.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Ive played some mmo's where in some dungeon/raid , support characters would receive a dps penalty of 30-40% or so, so even if they were dual built for per se questing/instance junk.. they couldnt ever be dps role inside of a dungeon/raid.
Frankly there is just too much dps roles in the game to be honest..
but they ripped apart actual support in this game to basics, so everyone is forced to simply what they are doing.
To be fair and square.. there are too many classes for such a simplistic approach to a mmo, shouldnt be more then 3 dps, 2 healers or 2 tanks classes.
Just another side effect of the disaster that is mod 16 forward.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I don't think this is a specific m16 issue. I would even say that M16 was an attempt to fix this, unfortunately with only limited resources.
It all started much much earlier, mod 2? 3? where classes were added, but the different roles were eroded, to the point that everyone are only dps.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
naw.. I blame taxes, death , bills and bad BBQ on mod 16 forward. =P
I've been a Warlock for the a little over 4 years now. Like most long-timers, I have one of every class as I enjoy the variety but the Warlock as a class was always fun to play, well ... before Mod 16 anyway.
Some of my toons are full end-game BiS and others are not, some I'm better at playing than others, and I can see a big difference between similarly geared toons. Regardless of gear, pets, enchants and player skill etc etc any class that has a DPS path should, on a naked toon with only their own self-buffs, be able to push out approx the same amount of DPS as any other DPS path on any other class within the same time-frame of measurement in actual combat not against a target dummy.
Can they be equal ? No, there's just too many variables at play here. But they should be close enough together, a 5% margin, for me, is acceptable. A 10% ... I could probably live with it and grumble under my breath; 40% between Rogue and Fighter - that's just far too wide a margin. Those DPS classes that are on the lower end of the spectrum need some attention from the devs.
You'll notice that I mentioned "the same time-frame of measurement in actual combat not against a target dummy" that's an important one and carries a lot of the issues at hand.
On my Rogue or Ranger I can one-shot a mob but on my Warlock, it takes 2 encounters. Now that doesn't mean that my Warlock is 50% less effective at DPS, but it does show a big enough gap between the classes. For the Warlock to be able to deal more damage they have a self-buff from the Soul Puppet which takes them approx 96 seconds to get to full buff (assuming the Soul Puppet didn't die). This already means that in a dungeon run, my Warlock is some-way behind the other classes for DPS and needs to work so much harder to gain less DPS than the more "meta" DPS classes. When I'm on my Fighter ... well, let's just say he has one action ... Invoke then change character.
Should there be a difference between the amount of DPS classes can push out; well yes simply because it's just not really possible to make them all do exactly the same amount in the same time-frame. Should the gap be 40% - No, absolutely not.
I would actually be happier if the dev team spent a month or two just fixing class balance and a few bugs along the way than working on new content.
To paraphrase George Orwell's Animal Farm "All DPS classes are equal, some are more equal than others" ....
Now, more than ever, do we play in an Orwellian game.
So seems to me the whole objection to classes like the Hellbringer and Blademaster performing as well as a Thaumaturge or an Assassin is because the players with the Hellbringer or Blademaster can change to a non-dps class after the dungeon/skirmish is over. Therefore a player who has a warlock, barbarian, fighter, or cleric gets a bigger bang for their buck. Not only is this patently untrue, more importantly, it's a separate topic.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the balance between classes inside of combat.
The conversation regarding dps class balance concerns: Thaumaturge, Arcanist, Assassin, Whisperknife, Warden, Hunter, Blademaster, Dreadnought, Arbiter, and Hellbringer.
Not to be confused with the conversation regarding class balance between healers which concerns: Oathkeeper, Devout, and Soulweaver
Or the conversation regarding class balance between tanks which only concerns: Vanguard, Justicar, Oathkeeper, and Sentinel
The Soulweaver class has no place in a discussion about dps classes. It's not a dps class. Just as the Hellbringer class has no place in a discussion about healing classes. It doesn't heal.
We essentially treat each paragon path as its own class.
And there it is.
An Assassin and a Whisperknife are two very different approaches to dps. I don't play the Whisperknife because I dislike fighting at range. But if cqc was getting me killed in certain content, you'd better believe next time I'd come back as a Whisperknife.
Not many people see any use to playing the Arcanist, but I find it more useful than my Thaumaturge in rare situations - with certain groups of people. The playstyle may not be all that different from the Thaumaturge, but I feel like the outcomes are.
I don't know anything about Rangers, but I'd be surprised to learn that both classes are handled the exact same way.
Point being - every class comes as a package deal - but again, that's a separate conversation. And people keep getting their wires crossed.
But on the topic of class balance - in games I don't usually care if one class is naturally more powerful than another, so long as the final result is roughly the same - so long as preparation and skill make the biggest difference.
Neverwinter does things so differently, though. And it strikes me that it's particular approach demands a balance between classes that's far more stringent than other games I've played - games that seem to shrug off such disparities.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Rogue, Barbarian, Paladin, etc.. Are classes.
Thaumaturge, Arcanist, Assassin, Whisperknife, Warden, Hunter, Blademaster, Dreadnought, Arbiter, and Hellbringer, etc.. Are all pragon paths of a class. They are not classes.
The playstyle can be different, the gear can be different, the roles can be different, between the pathes on one class, but lets not mix fundamental definitions
It is irrelevant if a class has 2 approaches to dps, or 100, as long as it can only fulfill a dps role, it will have a disadvantage over a class that can fulfill a dps role and some other, for example a tank or a healer. Oh the party is full on dps, one moment I'll swap loadout.. One role is HAMSTER this mod on this class, at least I retain my campaign progress, artifacts, and other bound stuff, while investing in second role. These are fundamental advantages to a class with multiple roles.
And if we talk class balance this is something to take into account. Class balance is not only summed as X can deal Y damage, but at the end balance is how much a player will regret (or not) picking and gearing a class over other choices. What is the value of a player investment, and that is something that should be closer to equal, and not player 1 picked class A and after half year can't do anything with it, while player 2 picked B and can join multiple content on multiple roles, excel at all, and swap for faster dailies too.
It is irrelevant if a class has 2 approaches to dps, or 100, as long as it can only fulfill a dps role, it will have a disadvantage over a class that can fulfill a dps role and some other, for example a tank or a healer. Oh the party is full on dps, one moment I'll swap loadout.. One role is HAMSTER this mod on this class, at least I retain my campaign progress, artifacts, and other bound stuff, while investing in second role. These are fundamental advantages to a class with multiple roles.
When's the last time you saw a Hellbringer, Arbiter, or Blademaster swap roles because there was too much dps in the party?
And as you say. It doesn't matter how many paragon classes a class has. It only has one during combat. We're talking about the damage dps classes do inside of combat. You're getting your wires crossed again.
What is the value of a player investment, and that is something that should be closer to equal, and not player 1 picked class A and after half year can't do anything with it, while player 2 picked B and can join multiple content on multiple roles, excel at all, and swap for faster dailies too.
yeah... but noone is asking for "pure" dps classes do do less dps then "multichoice" classes. So no need to exaggerate your examples.
So far nobody seems to acknowledge the advantage 'pure' dps classes inherently have (class balance aside) in simply having more at wills, encounter powers, dailies and class feats at their disposal to accomplish their role and suit playstyle. With the mod 16 changes this versatility is exclusive to wizards, rogues and rangers and limited to the dps role, since there is no tank/tank, healer/healer class. This already limits the rest classes to Jack of all trades, master of none.
Appreciate what you're saying ... classes with 2 DPS paragons can only queue as a DPS and if that class was no longer viable in a DPS role then it's "Hamster". The Warlock was given a dual paragon, DPS and Heals, all those Warlocks that had to go and spend millions of AD on outgoing healing pets and new gear to support a healing role never asked for it, but all of a sudden it's the only real choice for players these days. Yes, Warlock's can do ToMM as DPS but they're not a desirable DPS class when people are making groups.
So yeah, the Warlock can run as a healer and gain the bonus RAD from a dungeon, we're still limited to the same amount of RAD > AD as every other class.
Do we have the ability to be able to queue up for content due to being a support role - yes; because we spent a lot of money doing so.
Clerics , Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians can also queue in support roles, they're also more expensive to gear up for BiS too.
My Ranger, Rogue and Wizard all run the same gear regardless of which paragon they choose; for pure squeezing out the DPS swapping one or two pieces might help but that's it, just one or two.
A Tank class needs a huge amount of HP, to do this they're gonna get gear to support it, along with pets; should they swap to a healing build it's a different set of gear and pets.
Ok ... so the DPS can only queue as DPS, they also don't cost as much to gear up. You can't complain that DPS don't get as many runs as support when you only need half as much money to gear up compared to the dual-role classes. How many posts do you see for dual-role players complaining that they're toons cost too much to gear up compared to people complaining that they get more RAD? Don't forget that all the DPS complain that the queues are far too long a wait to be able to run content because there's not enough support toons, they're expensive to gear and run, Cryptic gave the players an incentive to play the classes; you can't have it both ways wanting people to run as support on a class that costs twice as much as a DPS and but they shouldn't get some incentive to do so.
It is irrelevant if a class has 2 approaches to dps, or 100, as long as it can only fulfill a dps role, it will have a disadvantage over a class that can fulfill a dps role and some other, for example a tank or a healer. Oh the party is full on dps, one moment I'll swap loadout.. One role is HAMSTER this mod on this class, at least I retain my campaign progress, artifacts, and other bound stuff, while investing in second role. These are fundamental advantages to a class with multiple roles.
When's the last time you saw a Hellbringer, Arbiter, or Blademaster swap roles because there was too much dps in the party?
And as you say. It doesn't matter how many paragon classes a class has. It only has one during combat. We're talking about the damage dps classes do inside of combat. You're getting your wires crossed again.
actually saw this happen multiple times during the last double enchantment weekend. We had both and Arbiter and a hellbringer switch from DPS to Healing during CODG runs due to our previous healers having to leave or be out of keys on those characters.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
It is irrelevant if a class has 2 approaches to dps, or 100, as long as it can only fulfill a dps role, it will have a disadvantage over a class that can fulfill a dps role and some other, for example a tank or a healer. Oh the party is full on dps, one moment I'll swap loadout.. One role is HAMSTER this mod on this class, at least I retain my campaign progress, artifacts, and other bound stuff, while investing in second role. These are fundamental advantages to a class with multiple roles.
When's the last time you saw a Hellbringer, Arbiter, or Blademaster swap roles because there was too much dps in the party?
And as you say. It doesn't matter how many paragon classes a class has. It only has one during combat. We're talking about the damage dps classes do inside of combat. You're getting your wires crossed again.
You choose to only talk about DPS output in a single role. That was covered ad nauseum, and officially all roles will be balanced. I choose to discuss overall class balance as players return on investment, and class 'popularity'.
My wires are not crossed.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Appreciate what you're saying ... classes with 2 DPS paragons can only queue as a DPS and if that class was no longer viable in a DPS role then it's "Hamster". The Warlock was given a dual paragon, DPS and Heals, all those Warlocks that had to go and spend millions of AD on outgoing healing pets and new gear to support a healing role never asked for it, but all of a sudden it's the only real choice for players these days. Yes, Warlock's can do ToMM as DPS but they're not a desirable DPS class when people are making groups.
So yeah, the Warlock can run as a healer and gain the bonus RAD from a dungeon, we're still limited to the same amount of RAD > AD as every other class.
Do we have the ability to be able to queue up for content due to being a support role - yes; because we spent a lot of money doing so.
Clerics , Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians can also queue in support roles, they're also more expensive to gear up for BiS too.
My Ranger, Rogue and Wizard all run the same gear regardless of which paragon they choose; for pure squeezing out the DPS swapping one or two pieces might help but that's it, just one or two.
A Tank class needs a huge amount of HP, to do this they're gonna get gear to support it, along with pets; should they swap to a healing build it's a different set of gear and pets.
Ok ... so the DPS can only queue as DPS, they also don't cost as much to gear up. You can't complain that DPS don't get as many runs as support when you only need half as much money to gear up compared to the dual-role classes. How many posts do you see for dual-role players complaining that they're toons cost too much to gear up compared to people complaining that they get more RAD? Don't forget that all the DPS complain that the queues are far too long a wait to be able to run content because there's not enough support toons, they're expensive to gear and run, Cryptic gave the players an incentive to play the classes; you can't have it both ways wanting people to run as support on a class that costs twice as much as a DPS and but they shouldn't get some incentive to do so.
The investment to gear a one role class, is the same as the investment of gearing the same role on another class. The cost to gear / set the second role, in the first case will be starting from practically 0, and in the second will be lower. Yes, not free, not by a long shot, but still much faster and cheaper than starting from 0.
I've never complained that queue times are long, nor care about them really, but taking your example, as a DPS cleric, oh the queue is long, lets swap to heals...
Support class do not cost twice as much as DPS, it's the other way for end-game. DPS is the most expansive to gear. It takes about 30mil (maybe 40+ depending how we count enchants and such) to gear healer Paladin, and takes about twice (if not three times) to gear DPS (rough estimate, to current end-game viable)
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
What is the value of a player investment, and that is something that should be closer to equal, and not player 1 picked class A and after half year can't do anything with it, while player 2 picked B and can join multiple content on multiple roles, excel at all, and swap for faster dailies too.
yeah... but noone is asking for "pure" dps classes do do less dps then "multichoice" classes. So no need to exaggerate your examples.
It's only hypothetical to showcase where multiple roles have advantage, didn't try to imply anything else. I actually usually exaggerate in the examples, it is a way of trying to make the explained point as glaringly clear as possible, nothing more, and no specific classes meant here.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
So far nobody seems to acknowledge the advantage 'pure' dps classes inherently have (class balance aside) in simply having more at wills, encounter powers, dailies and class feats at their disposal to accomplish their role and suit playstyle. With the mod 16 changes this versatility is exclusive to wizards, rogues and rangers and limited to the dps role, since there is no tank/tank, healer/healer class. This already limits the rest classes to Jack of all trades, master of none.
I don't think there is a single single role class where one of the paragons is not practically useless. Having a lot of choice on paper is nice, but it doesn't help to fulfill the role if it is only toilet paper.
Having said that, IMO the first focus of balance should go to some roles of dual role classes, like SW dps, Barbie DPS, GF DPS, etc.. The issue of dual role classes becoming a much better investment choice is a long term concern, and not the immediate short term one.
Support class do not cost twice as much as DPS, it's the other way for end-game. DPS is the most expansive to gear. It takes about 30mil to gear healer Paladin, and takes about twice (if not three times) to gear DPS (rough estimate, to BiS, current end-game)
I have an end-game Warlock, Cleric, Rogue and Ranger, both my Warlock and Cleric were DPS before Mod 16, I had to spec them up to full support viability. My Rogue and Ranger barely needed any adjustments. I don't swap stuff from any of the toons, I simply log in and I'm up and running.
For any end-game BiS player that has DPS and Support on a toon, they'll, like me, have no need to swap enchants around as they'll have the enchants on the gear at max rank already, simply swap a loadout and good to go; no need to take out enchants from one piece of gear to slot it into another and burn through more gold.
Swapping the loadout from DPS to DPS it's the same gear and same enchants that I bring up from 0 as you put it, but for a support toon it's one lot for DPS and a whole different set for the support side.
It's not hard to see that it's clearly more investment for a dual-role class compared to a DPS. If you think that it costs twice as much for a DPS to gear up, you need to double check something.
Appreciate what you're saying ... classes with 2 DPS paragons can only queue as a DPS and if that class was no longer viable in a DPS role then it's "Hamster". The Warlock was given a dual paragon, DPS and Heals, all those Warlocks that had to go and spend millions of AD on outgoing healing pets and new gear to support a healing role never asked for it, but all of a sudden it's the only real choice for players these days. Yes, Warlock's can do ToMM as DPS but they're not a desirable DPS class when people are making groups.
So yeah, the Warlock can run as a healer and gain the bonus RAD from a dungeon, we're still limited to the same amount of RAD > AD as every other class.
Do we have the ability to be able to queue up for content due to being a support role - yes; because we spent a lot of money doing so.
Clerics , Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians can also queue in support roles, they're also more expensive to gear up for BiS too.
My Ranger, Rogue and Wizard all run the same gear regardless of which paragon they choose; for pure squeezing out the DPS swapping one or two pieces might help but that's it, just one or two.
A Tank class needs a huge amount of HP, to do this they're gonna get gear to support it, along with pets; should they swap to a healing build it's a different set of gear and pets.
Ok ... so the DPS can only queue as DPS, they also don't cost as much to gear up. You can't complain that DPS don't get as many runs as support when you only need half as much money to gear up compared to the dual-role classes. How many posts do you see for dual-role players complaining that they're toons cost too much to gear up compared to people complaining that they get more RAD? Don't forget that all the DPS complain that the queues are far too long a wait to be able to run content because there's not enough support toons, they're expensive to gear and run, Cryptic gave the players an incentive to play the classes; you can't have it both ways wanting people to run as support on a class that costs twice as much as a DPS and but they shouldn't get some incentive to do so.
The investment to gear a one role class, is the same as the investment of gearing the same role on another class. The cost to gear / set the second role, in the first case will be starting from practically 0, and in the second will be lower. Yes, not free, not by a long shot, but still much faster and cheaper than starting from 0.
I've never complained that queue times are long, nor care about them really, but taking your example, as a DPS cleric, oh the queue is long, lets swap to heals...
Support class do not cost twice as much as DPS, it's the other way for end-game. DPS is the most expansive to gear. It takes about 30mil (maybe 40+ depending how we count enchants and such) to gear healer Paladin, and takes about twice (if not three times) to gear DPS (rough estimate, to current end-game viable)
actually id like to see where u get the 3x from? Are u comparing a BIS Support Build with a BIS DPS build? Or are underestimating the cost of an Heal OP because u can get away with less gear to finish content?
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Support class do not cost twice as much as DPS, it's the other way for end-game. DPS is the most expansive to gear. It takes about 30mil to gear healer Paladin, and takes about twice (if not three times) to gear DPS (rough estimate, to BiS, current end-game)
I have an end-game Warlock, Cleric, Rogue and Ranger, both my Warlock and Cleric were DPS before Mod 16, I had to spec them up to full support viability. My Rogue and Ranger barely needed any adjustments. I don't swap stuff from any of the toons, I simply log in and I'm up and running.
For any end-game BiS player that has DPS and Support on a toon, they'll, like me, have no need to swap enchants around as they'll have the enchants on the gear at max rank already, simply swap a loadout and good to go; no need to take out enchants from one piece of gear to slot it into another and burn through more gold.
Swapping the loadout from DPS to DPS it's the same gear and same enchants that I bring up from 0 as you put it, but for a support toon it's one lot for DPS and a whole different set for the support side.
It's not hard to see that it's clearly more investment for a dual-role class compared to a DPS. If you think that it costs twice as much for a DPS to gear up, you need to double check something.
There is no swapping from DPS to DPS as roles. One rare case where one works for AoE and another for ST, for example but this is not the point there. The point is lets say as a player I've geared an HR, and currently I want to fill a healer role. I need to start from 0, a new char, with the full cost of all campaigns, all the gear and so on.
Swapping from DPS cleric, to healer cleric, will cost me the companions, some companion gear, some artifacts, and investment in critical avoidance (for example for end-game) This is a much lower cost than starting a char from nothing. Reusing insignia, enchantments, mounts, campaign completion, and farmed gear like weapon sets, is not negligible.
Support class do not cost twice as much as DPS, it's the other way for end-game. DPS is the most expansive to gear. It takes about 30mil to gear healer Paladin, and takes about twice (if not three times) to gear DPS (rough estimate, to BiS, current end-game)
I have an end-game Warlock, Cleric, Rogue and Ranger, both my Warlock and Cleric were DPS before Mod 16, I had to spec them up to full support viability. My Rogue and Ranger barely needed any adjustments. I don't swap stuff from any of the toons, I simply log in and I'm up and running.
For any end-game BiS player that has DPS and Support on a toon, they'll, like me, have no need to swap enchants around as they'll have the enchants on the gear at max rank already, simply swap a loadout and good to go; no need to take out enchants from one piece of gear to slot it into another and burn through more gold.
Swapping the loadout from DPS to DPS it's the same gear and same enchants that I bring up from 0 as you put it, but for a support toon it's one lot for DPS and a whole different set for the support side.
It's not hard to see that it's clearly more investment for a dual-role class compared to a DPS. If you think that it costs twice as much for a DPS to gear up, you need to double check something.
Except that was not what was being said. People have been claiming it is more expensive to gear up a Support toon (Tank/Heal) instead of a dps toon.
What was referenced above is the cost to gear a Healer Paladin compared to a DPS class.
What is the value of a player investment, and that is something that should be closer to equal, and not player 1 picked class A and after half year can't do anything with it, while player 2 picked B and can join multiple content on multiple roles, excel at all, and swap for faster dailies too.
yeah... but noone is asking for "pure" dps classes do do less dps then "multichoice" classes. So no need to exaggerate your examples.
It's only hypothetical to showcase where multiple roles have advantage, didn't try to imply anything else. I actually usually exaggerate in the examples, it is a way of trying to make the explained point as glaringly clear as possible, nothing more, and no specific classes meant here.
sometimes exaggerating to explain something isnt the best way to go, especially when it leads to you strawmanning the viewpoint of the person that argues for the other thing.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Appreciate what you're saying ... classes with 2 DPS paragons can only queue as a DPS and if that class was no longer viable in a DPS role then it's "Hamster". The Warlock was given a dual paragon, DPS and Heals, all those Warlocks that had to go and spend millions of AD on outgoing healing pets and new gear to support a healing role never asked for it, but all of a sudden it's the only real choice for players these days. Yes, Warlock's can do ToMM as DPS but they're not a desirable DPS class when people are making groups.
So yeah, the Warlock can run as a healer and gain the bonus RAD from a dungeon, we're still limited to the same amount of RAD > AD as every other class.
Do we have the ability to be able to queue up for content due to being a support role - yes; because we spent a lot of money doing so.
Clerics , Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians can also queue in support roles, they're also more expensive to gear up for BiS too.
My Ranger, Rogue and Wizard all run the same gear regardless of which paragon they choose; for pure squeezing out the DPS swapping one or two pieces might help but that's it, just one or two.
A Tank class needs a huge amount of HP, to do this they're gonna get gear to support it, along with pets; should they swap to a healing build it's a different set of gear and pets.
Ok ... so the DPS can only queue as DPS, they also don't cost as much to gear up. You can't complain that DPS don't get as many runs as support when you only need half as much money to gear up compared to the dual-role classes. How many posts do you see for dual-role players complaining that they're toons cost too much to gear up compared to people complaining that they get more RAD? Don't forget that all the DPS complain that the queues are far too long a wait to be able to run content because there's not enough support toons, they're expensive to gear and run, Cryptic gave the players an incentive to play the classes; you can't have it both ways wanting people to run as support on a class that costs twice as much as a DPS and but they shouldn't get some incentive to do so.
The investment to gear a one role class, is the same as the investment of gearing the same role on another class. The cost to gear / set the second role, in the first case will be starting from practically 0, and in the second will be lower. Yes, not free, not by a long shot, but still much faster and cheaper than starting from 0.
I've never complained that queue times are long, nor care about them really, but taking your example, as a DPS cleric, oh the queue is long, lets swap to heals...
Support class do not cost twice as much as DPS, it's the other way for end-game. DPS is the most expansive to gear. It takes about 30mil (maybe 40+ depending how we count enchants and such) to gear healer Paladin, and takes about twice (if not three times) to gear DPS (rough estimate, to current end-game viable)
actually id like to see where u get the 3x from? Are u comparing a BIS Support Build with a BIS DPS build? Or are underestimating the cost of an Heal OP because u can get away with less gear to finish content?
Yes. You can get away with lower gear for the same "checks".
But actually a much better example would have been different, gearing a barbie tank from barbie DPS. The first one is a good example of a bad example, while the second is more to the topic.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
What is the value of a player investment, and that is something that should be closer to equal, and not player 1 picked class A and after half year can't do anything with it, while player 2 picked B and can join multiple content on multiple roles, excel at all, and swap for faster dailies too.
yeah... but noone is asking for "pure" dps classes do do less dps then "multichoice" classes. So no need to exaggerate your examples.
It's only hypothetical to showcase where multiple roles have advantage, didn't try to imply anything else. I actually usually exaggerate in the examples, it is a way of trying to make the explained point as glaringly clear as possible, nothing more, and no specific classes meant here.
sometimes exaggerating to explain something isnt the best way to go, especially when it leads to you strawmanning the viewpoint of the person that argues for the other thing.
I didn't think there is implication that someone want single role classes reduced or something. I don't see the strawman here, and I didn't intend for one in any case. Only to show a hypothetical example of where dual roles are beneficial over single role, honestly, not sure what wrong with it (the example), as the underlying discussion was that there is no advantage..
Warlocks are just bad at both roles. I run fully self sufficient warlock and wizard.
The dps disparity is far above 10%, that's why I'm running wizard now. It's closer to 30-40% less dmg as a warlock in full endgame groups with fast runs. Comparing warlock with 218k idle power vs my wizard 193k idle power in 22min lomm run is about 25% damage diffrence. In a 18min run it's about 40%. Warlock dps is beyond subpar and I havent even finished my wizard yet to max endgame. Once my wizard is around the same stats as warlock the dmg disparity will be even greater.
Let's be realistic, why would I or anyone who have always run warlocks as dps invest another 12mil+ for healing companions after already doing so for dps comps. With the added bonus to just do mediocre healing and have mediocre damage as a warlock at full endgame.
Especially when I already have an endgame pally, and cleric I run for support. Didnt ask or want for heal role as it was only dps role as per class description for all prior mods.
Devs arbitrary decisions of adding a class heal role and they equivically threw it in the trash and lit on fire mod 16...
Equally geared and stat classes with dps roles should not have a 25% to 40% damage disparity. It's absolutely asinine and whoever actually believes warlocks are even close to a good place obviously dont play one endgame.
You cannot gear and equip comps for dps and expect to heal well as a cleric with 0% outgoing heals and expect to do well I'm endgame content. It is costly to spec heals as well as dps. But if the max heal spec of walock is still subpar to pally or cleric. Its effectively trash for all roles. Gratz cryptic...
Comments
No margin has its own benefits but tbh there is no such thing as no margin at all. Even the top 3 dps classes with multiplicative self buffs to different dps. They could balance classes so that the margin could lean towards pure dps and it shouldn't be enough to discourage any other dps class. Pretty sure when they make non-meta do more dps than pure classes because balance is impossible, you'll see influx of players playing these classes. Then back to square 1 with being fair and more changes.
Did you factor in the players' use or lack of slotted companion bonuses?
Did you factor in the players' use or lack of mount bonuses?
Did you factor in the players' use or lack of consumables (foods. elixers, potions)?
Did you factor in the players' use or lack of armor modifications?
Did you factor in the players' combined quality of companion gear, runes, artifact equipment, artifacts, enchantments, and Insignia?
Its the same complaint, isn't it? (/facepalm)
"Class balance."
But is this really an issue of class balance or just a lack of adequately prepared/geared players queuing up for something that is too over-powered for them?
Neverwinter was not meant to be a game where you pick up a stick to hit a dragon over the head and get a "Congratulations! You win!" notification. Character growth and item use is essential to this game. If you using an underdeveloped character, you're guaranteed to face a (mistakenly) perceived "class balance" issue.
Ever since Mod 16 launched, I have not queued up for any content above intermediate because I recognize that I am simply not prepared to properly run that content. It is unavoidable that in some cases it isn't so much an issue of "class balance" as it is that you are a tissue-paper warrior. And yes, folks... while I may sound like a broken record, there is no avoiding the glaring truth that THIS is why we needed power-share in the game - so classes are buffing each other to eliminate any imbalance! Power-share was in reality the ballast that kept this game upright!
And as for the "Did you factor in..." litany..
Did YOU factor in the concept that we are not utterly logic deficient? Did you really consider that we may actually know what we're doing and saying? It is always good to have people recognize their own deficiencies, but it would be nice if they did not project them on the entire world at large.
(yeah I know tom's answer was already enough, but this one just chapped my hide..
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1250209/official-m17-tower-of-the-mad-mage-feedback/p11
With several suggestions how to correct this.
But anyway, some semantics, in NW there are no Hybrid classes. A hybrid class is a class that can do 2 or more roles to some extent, at the same time. In NW there are classes that can swap roles, but this is not a hybrid class.
Unless there is more in depth solution, there will be disparity, if all roles equal (of the same role) dual role classes will always have advantage. A player will always choose a class that can do two viable (and equal to others for those roles) roles, instead of a class that can do only one.
On the other hand, if a single role class is better in a role, than a dual role class when in the same role, the dual role class has no reason of existence. There will be bias towards the better class in that role.
An obvious solution is to change the "dps only" classes to have a secondary viable role, this can be one of the current, healer, tank, or adding a new support category, if it is mitigation, debuff, CC, and so on.
Another option was make one role select-able as primary (for dual role classes), this role will get buffed to be on par with the single role classes, for example 10% more outging damage, 10% more hp, 10% more outgoing healing, etc.. With one role on par, the other will be slightly behind. Having a cost or cooldown to this selection on one hand creates a role which is on par and on the other mitigates the benefit over single role classes.
Frankly there is just too much dps roles in the game to be honest..
but they ripped apart actual support in this game to basics, so everyone is forced to simply what they are doing.
To be fair and square.. there are too many classes for such a simplistic approach to a mmo, shouldnt be more then 3 dps, 2 healers or 2 tanks classes.
Just another side effect of the disaster that is mod 16 forward.
It all started much much earlier, mod 2? 3? where classes were added, but the different roles were eroded, to the point that everyone are only dps.
Some of my toons are full end-game BiS and others are not, some I'm better at playing than others, and I can see a big difference between similarly geared toons.
Regardless of gear, pets, enchants and player skill etc etc any class that has a DPS path should, on a naked toon with only their own self-buffs, be able to push out approx the same amount of DPS as any other DPS path on any other class within the same time-frame of measurement in actual combat not against a target dummy.
Can they be equal ? No, there's just too many variables at play here. But they should be close enough together, a 5% margin, for me, is acceptable. A 10% ... I could probably live with it and grumble under my breath; 40% between Rogue and Fighter - that's just far too wide a margin. Those DPS classes that are on the lower end of the spectrum need some attention from the devs.
You'll notice that I mentioned "the same time-frame of measurement in actual combat not against a target dummy" that's an important one and carries a lot of the issues at hand.
On my Rogue or Ranger I can one-shot a mob but on my Warlock, it takes 2 encounters. Now that doesn't mean that my Warlock is 50% less effective at DPS, but it does show a big enough gap between the classes.
For the Warlock to be able to deal more damage they have a self-buff from the Soul Puppet which takes them approx 96 seconds to get to full buff (assuming the Soul Puppet didn't die). This already means that in a dungeon run, my Warlock is some-way behind the other classes for DPS and needs to work so much harder to gain less DPS than the more "meta" DPS classes.
When I'm on my Fighter ... well, let's just say he has one action ... Invoke then change character.
Should there be a difference between the amount of DPS classes can push out; well yes simply because it's just not really possible to make them all do exactly the same amount in the same time-frame.
Should the gap be 40% - No, absolutely not.
I would actually be happier if the dev team spent a month or two just fixing class balance and a few bugs along the way than working on new content.
To paraphrase George Orwell's Animal Farm "All DPS classes are equal, some are more equal than others" ....
Now, more than ever, do we play in an Orwellian game.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the balance between classes inside of combat.
The conversation regarding dps class balance concerns: Thaumaturge, Arcanist, Assassin, Whisperknife, Warden, Hunter, Blademaster, Dreadnought, Arbiter, and Hellbringer.
Not to be confused with the conversation regarding class balance between healers which concerns: Oathkeeper, Devout, and Soulweaver
Or the conversation regarding class balance between tanks which only concerns: Vanguard, Justicar, Oathkeeper, and Sentinel
The Soulweaver class has no place in a discussion about dps classes. It's not a dps class.
Just as the Hellbringer class has no place in a discussion about healing classes. It doesn't heal. And there it is.
An Assassin and a Whisperknife are two very different approaches to dps. I don't play the Whisperknife because I dislike fighting at range. But if cqc was getting me killed in certain content, you'd better believe next time I'd come back as a Whisperknife.
Not many people see any use to playing the Arcanist, but I find it more useful than my Thaumaturge in rare situations - with certain groups of people. The playstyle may not be all that different from the Thaumaturge, but I feel like the outcomes are.
I don't know anything about Rangers, but I'd be surprised to learn that both classes are handled the exact same way.
Point being - every class comes as a package deal -
but again, that's a separate conversation. And people keep getting their wires crossed.
Neverwinter does things so differently, though. And it strikes me that it's particular approach demands a balance between classes that's far more stringent than other games I've played - games that seem to shrug off such disparities.
Thaumaturge, Arcanist, Assassin, Whisperknife, Warden, Hunter, Blademaster, Dreadnought, Arbiter, and Hellbringer, etc.. Are all pragon paths of a class. They are not classes.
The playstyle can be different, the gear can be different, the roles can be different, between the pathes on one class, but lets not mix fundamental definitions
It is irrelevant if a class has 2 approaches to dps, or 100, as long as it can only fulfill a dps role, it will have a disadvantage over a class that can fulfill a dps role and some other, for example a tank or a healer. Oh the party is full on dps, one moment I'll swap loadout..
One role is HAMSTER this mod on this class, at least I retain my campaign progress, artifacts, and other bound stuff, while investing in second role. These are fundamental advantages to a class with multiple roles.
And if we talk class balance this is something to take into account. Class balance is not only summed as X can deal Y damage, but at the end balance is how much a player will regret (or not) picking and gearing a class over other choices. What is the value of a player investment, and that is something that should be closer to equal, and not player 1 picked class A and after half year can't do anything with it, while player 2 picked B and can join multiple content on multiple roles, excel at all, and swap for faster dailies too.
When's the last time you saw a Hellbringer, Arbiter, or Blademaster swap roles because there was too much dps in the party?
And as you say. It doesn't matter how many paragon classes a class has.
It only has one during combat. We're talking about the damage dps classes do inside of combat.
You're getting your wires crossed again.
The Warlock was given a dual paragon, DPS and Heals, all those Warlocks that had to go and spend millions of AD on outgoing healing pets and new gear to support a healing role never asked for it, but all of a sudden it's the only real choice for players these days.
Yes, Warlock's can do ToMM as DPS but they're not a desirable DPS class when people are making groups.
So yeah, the Warlock can run as a healer and gain the bonus RAD from a dungeon, we're still limited to the same amount of RAD > AD as every other class.
Do we have the ability to be able to queue up for content due to being a support role - yes; because we spent a lot of money doing so.
Clerics , Paladins, Fighters and Barbarians can also queue in support roles, they're also more expensive to gear up for BiS too.
My Ranger, Rogue and Wizard all run the same gear regardless of which paragon they choose; for pure squeezing out the DPS swapping one or two pieces might help but that's it, just one or two.
A Tank class needs a huge amount of HP, to do this they're gonna get gear to support it, along with pets; should they swap to a healing build it's a different set of gear and pets.
Ok ... so the DPS can only queue as DPS, they also don't cost as much to gear up. You can't complain that DPS don't get as many runs as support when you only need half as much money to gear up compared to the dual-role classes. How many posts do you see for dual-role players complaining that they're toons cost too much to gear up compared to people complaining that they get more RAD?
Don't forget that all the DPS complain that the queues are far too long a wait to be able to run content because there's not enough support toons, they're expensive to gear and run, Cryptic gave the players an incentive to play the classes; you can't have it both ways wanting people to run as support on a class that costs twice as much as a DPS and but they shouldn't get some incentive to do so.
My wires are not crossed.
The cost to gear / set the second role, in the first case will be starting from practically 0, and in the second will be lower. Yes, not free, not by a long shot, but still much faster and cheaper than starting from 0.
I've never complained that queue times are long, nor care about them really, but taking your example, as a DPS cleric, oh the queue is long, lets swap to heals...
Support class do not cost twice as much as DPS, it's the other way for end-game. DPS is the most expansive to gear. It takes about 30mil (maybe 40+ depending how we count enchants and such) to gear healer Paladin, and takes about twice (if not three times) to gear DPS (rough estimate, to current end-game viable)
I actually usually exaggerate in the examples, it is a way of trying to make the explained point as glaringly clear as possible, nothing more, and no specific classes meant here.
Having said that, IMO the first focus of balance should go to some roles of dual role classes, like SW dps, Barbie DPS, GF DPS, etc..
The issue of dual role classes becoming a much better investment choice is a long term concern, and not the immediate short term one.
I don't swap stuff from any of the toons, I simply log in and I'm up and running.
For any end-game BiS player that has DPS and Support on a toon, they'll, like me, have no need to swap enchants around as they'll have the enchants on the gear at max rank already, simply swap a loadout and good to go; no need to take out enchants from one piece of gear to slot it into another and burn through more gold.
Swapping the loadout from DPS to DPS it's the same gear and same enchants that I bring up from 0 as you put it, but for a support toon it's one lot for DPS and a whole different set for the support side.
It's not hard to see that it's clearly more investment for a dual-role class compared to a DPS. If you think that it costs twice as much for a DPS to gear up, you need to double check something.
The point is lets say as a player I've geared an HR, and currently I want to fill a healer role. I need to start from 0, a new char, with the full cost of all campaigns, all the gear and so on.
Swapping from DPS cleric, to healer cleric, will cost me the companions, some companion gear, some artifacts, and investment in critical avoidance (for example for end-game) This is a much lower cost than starting a char from nothing.
Reusing insignia, enchantments, mounts, campaign completion, and farmed gear like weapon sets, is not negligible.
What was referenced above is the cost to gear a Healer Paladin compared to a DPS class.
But actually a much better example would have been different, gearing a barbie tank from barbie DPS.
The first one is a good example of a bad example, while the second is more to the topic.
The dps disparity is far above 10%, that's why I'm running wizard now. It's closer to 30-40% less dmg as a warlock in full endgame groups with fast runs. Comparing warlock with 218k idle power vs my wizard 193k idle power in 22min lomm run is about 25% damage diffrence. In a 18min run it's about 40%. Warlock dps is beyond subpar and I havent even finished my wizard yet to max endgame. Once my wizard is around the same stats as warlock the dmg disparity will be even greater.
Let's be realistic, why would I or anyone who have always run warlocks as dps invest another 12mil+ for healing companions after already doing so for dps comps. With the added bonus to just do mediocre healing and have mediocre damage as a warlock at full endgame.
Especially when I already have an endgame pally, and cleric I run for support. Didnt ask or want for heal role as it was only dps role as per class description for all prior mods.
Devs arbitrary decisions of adding a class heal role and they equivically threw it in the trash and lit on fire mod 16...
Equally geared and stat classes with dps roles should not have a 25% to 40% damage disparity. It's absolutely asinine and whoever actually believes warlocks are even close to a good place obviously dont play one endgame.
You cannot gear and equip comps for dps and expect to heal well as a cleric with 0% outgoing heals and expect to do well I'm endgame content. It is costly to spec heals as well as dps. But if the max heal spec of walock is still subpar to pally or cleric. Its effectively trash for all roles. Gratz cryptic...