micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited September 2019
The dual role argument is if the roles are equal. Consider it as "If problem X solved in a specific way (and it should be solved in one way or another) then in long term there will arise problem Y" Is the best solution is one with a token, like described and people try to misrepresent, imo, no, not best at all, the benefit there though is a very easy implementation and instead of cost it can be cool-down. and it keeps the role equality. I would always prefer viable dual roles for all classes, which IMO should be the long term goal there.
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
I would like to pew pew again with my ranger I didn't use my bow from a long long long time.
I would like to pew pew again with my ranger I didn't use my bow from a long long long time.
I miss it. Reduced from two paragons and 3 playstyles to 1/1 is kinda meh. But it's "meta" so rest assured every HR out there, combat it until it's nerfed to what it was before. Then I can go back to trapper and hopefully dread, cause all this vorpal everywhere is bad for my eyes.
We had both and Arbiter and a hellbringer switch from DPS to Healing during CODG runs due to our previous healers having to leave or be out of keys on those characters.
Was there raging in the queue? Was there swearing? Did everyone complain because the soulweaver and devout weren't mediocre enough?
There was no raging/swearing or complaining by anyone
Group was formed randomly out of the Legit community channel we ran 8 runs and then a DC and a pally (i think) ran out of keys dc and warlock immediately changed load outs to heal specs 1 person came back on a different toon (3rd tank if i remember correctly) and we grabbed another random (dps) from the channel ran another 5 or 6 runs before i left.
This was a great example of where the multi role ability was a bonus. The group didn't need to wait for 2 heals to become available.
I would like to pew pew again with my ranger I didn't use my bow from a long long long time.
I miss it. Reduced from two paragons and 3 playstyles to 1/1 is kinda meh. But it's "meta" so rest assured every HR out there, combat it until it's nerfed to what it was before. Then I can go back to trapper and hopefully dread, cause all this vorpal everywhere is bad for my eyes.
All Dread currently does is a DoT (low damage even for characters without offensive stats capped) and reduction of defense (the stat that counters armor penetration so basically useless if everyone is capped on armor penetration). I hope they add a small buff to encounter damage again after reworking the buff formula.
This was a great example of where the multi role ability was a bonus. The group didn't need to wait for 2 heals to become available.
That's nice to hear. Sounds like it was a bonus for everyone. A bonus to players who prepared and practiced for two different roles. A bonus to dps players who didn't need to wait. Your example is a great one for other reasons because if your two dps turned healers had that role nerfed as has been suggested, you would have had to wait for real healers or potentially struggle.
Every time someone chooses to group with a support class, it helps everyone. Most especially the queues. Someone claimed that nobody queues which is inane. A vast number of players populate the lower queues. That's why those pop faster than the higher queues. The idea that all but a few players are endgame bis with nothing better to do than lfg or form up private groups for lomm is ridiculous. Because in reality, they're the outliers - just can't see past their own swollen egos to notice anyone else. And they're largely irrelevant to the conversation since by their own admission, they form their own groups.
But as I pointed out earlier. The so-called advantage of multiple rolls is illusory. Every time a player opts out of dps, that's another dps spot open. They're moving out of a group that's overpopulated to a group that's underpopulated and in higher demand - making life easier for everyone. Whenever they opt back into the the sea of dps, they just make things harder on themselves and on all the other dps players.
The more this topic is discussed, the more I realize how beneficial the multiple roles are. I do feel for dps classes that only have one role because I also play some of those classes. Do I wish my Arcanist could heal or tank? I think that would be incredibly interesting. Same with the Whisperknife. I think it would be fascinating to see a different take on tanking utilizing stealth, misdirection, and decoys. But then you've got a situation where healers and tanks get backed up and everyone's waiting. No matter what. Someone's going to wait some of the time.
I would always prefer viable dual roles for all classes, which IMO should be the long term goal there.
I completely, wholeheartedly agree. Though as I noted above, it may not do as much to alleviate the problem of getting into content as one would think.
If you'd stop harping on this fractious token nonsense and sing this tune, I'd be pulling out the spoons.
Classbalance is a "nice to have " in every game by sure... but this is a game where classbalance never took place at any given time. In theory you can hope for good, in practice the only way to deal with the situation from mod to mod is by shelving class/path A and hop on class/path B and grind your butt to gear up. This game could not fix bugs that lasted for 3 years and the ammount of devs did not grow in between, and those bugs, once fixed , sometimes popped up 4 mods later again for no obvious reasons. I thinkh treads like this are good in general, but the community runs in circles since years and there will never be anything like "classbalance" no matter what any dev stated during the last years.
"We collect data to get there and do small steps of adjustments for classes to not screw things up again"...things like this are an empty phrase. NWO translation: " We actually can`t solve the situation due to lack of missing menpower/will/ knowledge/insight into the game in a hole"
But isn't it conceivable that the sweeping mod16 changes give the developers a better opportunity to tighten some of the nuts and bolts?
That´s what they told us. In practice the game was remodeled/simplified to handle those "broken mega buffs" all classes/groups were build arround, a good intention. What I see in practice is a game where you find 3 dps-classes significantly above the rest in terms of dps, making any attempt to absolve actual content with "non-meta-dps" probelmatic at best. Actually a pretty small minority runs endcontent and since that gear is not BtA , you have some NWO billioneers and the rest. A scenario where devs said they wanted to prevent anything like this to happen, as far as I understood. Content for 0,1% where only 3 dps out of 7 are found to be capable to abslove it in terms of dps (some rare BIS parties excludet, that run premade 24/7 maybe).. in a game where the mass of player can be called casual. No clue what calculations are behind those decisions, I guess not that many.
No, I'm not sympathetic, and I can't empathize either.
I play the rogue. Do I use the ranged paragon path. Never. I play the Wizard. Do I use the control paragon class? Only when the rest of the team really needs the help. I play the Warlock. Do I play the healing paragon class? Only when the rest of the team really needs the help. I play the Paladin. Do I play the healing paragon class? Only when the rest of the team really needs the help. I play the Barbarian. Do I play the tank paragon class? Never. I play the Cleric. Do I play the healing paragon class? Lately - all the time. Even while campaigning because I find the playstyle relaxing. I play all the classes but two, and I already have the slots waiting for them. Probably start on them before the year's out.
I put the time and effort into building these characters. Grinding for rad and ad. Grinding for equipment. Grinding for boons. Grinding for everything.
I have no patience for people who complain about some wacky concept of class privilege when they could have the same class by putting in the same effort. The fact that they're unwilling - is their problem. Not mine. Not other players. Not the developers.
NW's f2p. Want something? Play for it, or don't, but either way keep your grasping fingers out of my game.
I feel what truly is lacking is empathy. All the pro-marginers , do they not think what the pure dpses' reaction would be, when all classes are balanced and a cleric is doing similar damage to them and still have the option to heal optimally as a separate role? Heck, a cleric already has an amazing aoe i can tell you that, so any other pure dps can kiss his role as a dps. I on the other hand will enjoy all character bound items and still able to heal optimally with the same class.
It's outrageous how some of the people out there can simply ignore the above. I am extremely confused by the mentality of others, asking for balance but suggesting to the contrary in terms of the outcome.
I wouldn't consider any of the healer classes individually as optimal.
If you're a DPS Barbarian or Warlock you shouldn't be punished just because of having another paragon available.
If you're a Ranger and want to use the bow you shouldn't be either.
Bringing the Fighter up closer to a Rogues DPS obviously isn't the only change the game needs. It's just one that's needed the most right now.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
No, I'm not sympathetic, and I can't empathize either.
I play the rogue. Do I use the ranged paragon path. Never. I play the Wizard. Do I use the control paragon class? Only when the rest of the team really needs the help. I play the Warlock. Do I play the healing paragon class? Only when the rest of the team really needs the help. I play the Paladin. Do I play the healing paragon class? Only when the rest of the team really needs the help. I play the Barbarian. Do I play the tank paragon class? Never. I play the Cleric. Do I play the healing paragon class? Lately - all the time. Even while campaigning because I find the playstyle relaxing. I play all the classes but two, and I already have the slots waiting for them. Probably start on them before the year's out.
I put the time and effort into building these characters. Grinding for rad and ad. Grinding for equipment. Grinding for boons. Grinding for everything.
I have no patience for people who complain about some wacky concept of class privilege when they could have the same class by putting in the same effort. The fact that they're unwilling - is their problem. Not mine. Not other players. Not the developers.
NW's f2p. Want something? Play for it, or don't, but either way keep your grasping fingers out of my game.
1) Wizard doesn't have a control path. 2) Being able to swap between paths is an advantage. Funnily enough, other games readily acknowledge this and their solution is to penalize classes with more than 1 role by making them perform worse at both roles then classes who only have 1 role. Classic WoW, that MMO that just came out again, you know the one which has been wildly successful, had that design philosophy. I definitely think there is room for improving on that concept, but the first step is admitting that versatility is an advantage and then try to balance from there. 3) The fact that you have 6/8 toons, doesn't make you right or wrong about the topic, so stick to the topic please. Just because you personally don't use the other paths, doesn't mean that there isn't an advantage for someone who does or that other people won't do it. Pretty much everyone i play with is more than willing to take advantage of the versatility offered by multiple roles and the people who play Paladins already do. 4) Its not class privilege, see point 2. Its got nothing to do with time and effort either, I assure you, I put plenty of time and effort into this game. Far more than I should have in fact. 5) It isn't your place to tell people to keep their grasping hands out of anything, we all have our opinions and are able to share them.
1) Control - Arcanist. I use it for extended stuns and freezes. Low dps, but very useful for keeping lower players alive. The Thaumaturge doesn't have the same capability. 2) Multiclassing. Neverwinter doesn't have true multiclassing. And it's not a penalty if it's done correctly. It's just the logical outcome of foregoing capstone/higher skills that would have been gained at higher levels in multiple classes. WoW isn't relevant to me. The D&D Player Handbook is. There's an entire section on multiclassing. Very informative. Pages 163-164. But if you're so fond of the "hybrid tax," go play WoW. 3) The fact that I play all these classes makes me more invested than someone who wants to punish classes that he's unwilling to play. Also listed them to add to the consensus that many of us are only interested in playing one paragon path. 4) pointless. What class did you say you play? 5) When you demand changes that not only affect me during group play, but then follow me back into solo play where I spend most of my time, you better believe it's my place to tell you to keep your hands off. It certainly isn't your place to tell me what my place is. I know my place better than you seem to know yours.
And yet again, all three of you completely ignore the gaping wounds in your thought process in favor of picking at scabs. Confront it or don't, but the nitpicking of trifling details is getting old.
Bringing the Fighter up closer to a Rogues DPS obviously isn't the only change the game needs. It's just one that's needed the most right now.
I'd bet 5000 inflated PC AD that the opposite result will happen, because it's an "immersive DnD experience" to have to poke things to death with tiny butter knives.
It has both Arcanist and Thaumaturge, of which are the best at permanently keeping enemies crowd controlled with the best crowd control effect. I hear it's something called "death."
In fact, every class has said crowd control method, so saying that CW doesn't have CC (or any class, for that matter) is wrong.
Classic WoW? the game that has a tank/DPS class as one of the top DPS (Warrior) ? Classic WoW isn't WoW. Vanilla had true hybrid classes, where with the same spec you were able to heal in your DPS path, etc. They changed the classes, removed some utilities from classes and every DPS path from pure or multirole classes are considered the same: A DPS path (no more hybrid tax in their damage) And WoW is a different game compared with Neverwinter, when a player picked a class in WoW he knew that the class is a multirole or a pure DPS one. Here in Neverwinter devs changed the role of the classes that used to be only DPS, only tank, only healer....And people that used to enjoy their buffer spec on their DPS class (debuff CW, buff/debuff HR) now they are only viable as DPS.
If wizards as renegade had gotten the heal aspect buffed and applied as a role and become a subpar healer and dps, then wizards would be just as vocal about balance in this game. I find it almost impossible for a wizard given the same scenario as warlocks current state to be happy with subpart dual role. In prior mods heals were mostly irrelevant in a one shot wonderland..
Agree...It's easy to claim for a penalization for others when your class role remains untouched.
or don't, but either way keep your grasping fingers out of my game.
Sorry , i didn't know you were a developer disguised as a player. I apologise for my rudeness, "please don't ban me".
As for advising everyone to make all toons in the game, you must be really rich. Sorry, but if the dev's ever considered to walk in your directions, i don't think the game would last another year. Most of the population doesn't have the free time that you presumably have but that is clearly besides the point here. My point was to balance classes, and from a developer's point of view, you would like to do it so that all classes are on par. Your idea of just making another character if your not happy with the current one is basically mod 16 all over again. If you had nothing constructive to say, please take your tantrums outside where you don't embarrass yourself.
I wonder where everybody found the secret knowledge-stash of having the only universal solution to a mess that worked very hard for it's lvl of uniqueness in the "kinda-weird" section of mmos. Everybody is so busy pointing fingers and considering their opinion most important, either because they have been here from the start OR because they run the sophisticated endgame version of the "kinda-weird" OR simply because everybody ELSE just GOT to be an idiot... The game is not only existing for people that run Tomm, but its also existing for people that want to farm it with all of their toons. That there is some up-sides to be able to utilise a char with two roles however its needed I get, but that's simply not the case for all the players in the game.
The "all my friends do that too" argument is so tiring after all this time, because we likely play with like-minded people. I don't run a single HAMSTER with white-knights that are turning me into a passive-aggressive ball of rage - so I'm assuming everybody befriends people that have either a similar experience in game, same personality, same mindset - whatever, your pick. I don't know people that pick a cleric because "hell yeah I can dps and heal now!!" or a SW because "I like to be full time lame nowadays!" but I figure that there are some people that do!
A lot of this discussion is pointless because everybody is already pissed at the other before they even heard their opinion on a matter (which, in most cases, are easy to guess right now.)
But the game is not only (or mainly) meta groups, premade tomm training runs and "oh shucks my class sucks now, lets equip another for millions of AD!!!" but of people that like to put two hours in and call it a day without trying to explain how this imbalance is impacting the game as a whole, not just the possibility to finish tomm. If there is a class that sucks, this class gets shunned. We have seen it happen before. That also means: Guildies telling you not to create an alt of that class, guides that are outdated because the player writing it either left NW or switched main, and, even tho pugging is only for the low lifes like me and a majority of casual players, getting kicked/shunned/asked about it because of their class.
I do still remember people laughing about HR and how I sticked to it simply because it was my first character and I liked it - and I wasn't interacting with the community much for the first 6 months of playing this game. When people told me to start a "real" dps I was already decent with it (I didn't touch combat for a long time cause that felt a bit TR for me And if I wanted that, I would've started a TR. But yeah, you could still slay trapper) I do have my alts and I could, maybe, if I really really wanted to, get another ready for the potential close future of a "bad" HR. But why.. I want to enjoy the game, not cry after millions lost. And not everybody is quite "there" already, many are still upgrading, polishing. How do you tell somebody that finally finished all boons and got the comps JUST right, bought a Staff of Flowers because RNG is never on their side and equipped it - to just switch to another class or even their role they never played, never tried, don't have a single companion for?
Also - when I queue for RIQ/RAQ (pointless content, huh ) and take one of my fav SWs (those that are still here) with me, who got next to the same setup and stats, dmg gear, whatnot - its also obvious. And thats not chill. He is a better player, he should wipe the ground with me.
So far the conclusion of this discussion in relation to having a margin or no margin seems to be this:
If you don't have time or are too lazy to build another toon, we shouldn't get to suffer (Just impeccable)
I chose my toon because i wanted to do dps, prior to mod 16 (really? have you read my initial post?)
I don't want to heal with my toon because it sucks, so why should my dps suffer (is that your way of explaining how multi-role is not an advantage?)
I chose my toon because i liked its play style or by fluke and somehow i got attached to it (shouldn't even be considered in this discussion tbh)
If you're a DPS non-meta class, you shouldn't be punished just because of having another paragon available (then make another toon lol, Jks. Seriously, why shouldn't you? Considering you are not going to moan about the fact that mod 16 made you into a multi-role, then what else can you justify it with?).
There is no advantage to a multi-role, because you cannot heal and dps and vice versa with tanking at the same time (Holy! That is putting words in our mouth).
There is no advantage to a multi-role, i can queue up as only one at a time (completely disregarding the choice here, i can queue which ever i want and whenever i want and whenever it is required or whenever it is more beneficial. But of course, that is irrelevant to you because the game only caters to yours and your's truly).
The only sensible argument was that the pure dps classes have more choice in terms of dps i.e. 2 dps paragons than current non-meta classes. But as it stands, only 1 paragon of the pure dps classes is used, the other is just sitting there.
Lastly, wizard and rogues are a great example of ST damage but lacking in AOE in comparison to other classes. If their ST target was matched by other classes, then their aoe also needs to be made on par. I can actually see the dev's making all classes equal right now. Not surprisingly then, the players who segregated to these 2 classes will cry for few months and then populate into the current non-meta classes. More money for the game, and easily fooled population. A win win situation. Then it'll be back to square one, mod 26 and we all cry. lol
That's the worst thread conclusion I ever seen. You only repeated your own ideas here. You're not even considering other's opinions on the topic, so I don't really know why you persist on this discussion.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
That there is some up-sides to be able to utilise a char with two roles however its needed I get, but that's simply not the case for all the players in the game.
A player is free not to use an advantage. If it's a minority, the advantage stands, if some "on paper" advantage is not used at all in practice then it's not real advantage. In this case, swapping roles on existing chars is used, a lot.
The "all my friends do that too" argument is so tiring after all this time, because we likely play with like-minded people. I don't run a single HAMSTER with white-knights that are turning me into a passive-aggressive ball of rage - so I'm assuming everybody befriends people that have either a similar experience in game, same personality, same mindset - whatever, your pick.
Point of view does explain some things, but we can debate an idea, or we can 'discuss' the people, and some 'discussion' is just a hamster.
"Great Minds Discuss Ideas. Average Minds Discuss Events. Small Minds Discuss People."
I don't know people that pick a cleric because "hell yeah I can dps and heal now!!" or a SW because "I like to be full time lame nowadays!" but I figure that there are some people that do!
Take a look at the people who debate with what class to start the game, on reddit, on discord. People do not want to get stuck with a lemon. The more options a class has, the less chance the need to drink a lot of lemonade.
A lot of this discussion is pointless because everybody is already pissed at the other before they even heard their opinion on a matter (which, in most cases, are easy to guess right now.)
It was pointless before it even began, but what else you get to do at the food break at work?! :P
But the game is not only (or mainly) meta groups, premade tomm training runs and "oh shucks my class sucks now, lets equip another for millions of AD!!!" but of people that like to put two hours in and call it a day without trying to explain how this imbalance is impacting the game as a whole, not just the possibility to finish tomm.
Yes, and no, yes, the game is not only tomm, it's just a good example where balance has the most impact, a 10% difference will not be as important everywhere else.
On the other hand, you don't know people who invested a lot in alts because they were frustrated with their original picks?! We all know
If there is a class that sucks, this class gets shunned. We have seen it happen before. That also means: Guildies telling you not to create an alt of that class, guides that are outdated because the player writing it either left NW or switched main, and, even tho pugging is only for the low lifes like me and a majority of casual players, getting kicked/shunned/asked about it because of their class.
Filthy low life pug! ;p
Not really important to the argument, but as a side note, I don't think you should attribute "pugging is for the majority of the casual players", maybe yes, maybe no, but we go back to the what we personally know. Most (and I mean as 95+%) of the players I know, in guild, and so on, are on the casual side of players, from couple of hours per day, to weekend only, to long breaks. And if they mainly pug or not? Is alliance for example considered pugging? If not, then no.
But my side note is not important, and obviously not the focus. Lets assume it is as you say, and yes pug life sucks, honestly, wouldn't advice anyone to do that regularly, but the relevant point to this is (and yes some examples were not the best there), if the classes are balanced and not shunned in the most difficult content, they should be viable everywhere else. (there will be variance, but still will be good enough).
Ofc there is no intent to harm anyone's ability to pug life.
I do still remember people laughing about HR and how I sticked to it simply because it was my first character and I liked it - and I wasn't interacting with the community much for the first 6 months of playing this game. When people told me to start a "real" dps I was already decent with it (I didn't touch combat for a long time cause that felt a bit TR for me And if I wanted that, I would've started a TR. But yeah, you could still slay trapper) I do have my alts and I could, maybe, if I really really wanted to, get another ready for the potential close future of a "bad" HR. But why.. I want to enjoy the game, not cry after millions lost.
Isn't that the point all along? People feeling like the made the wrong choice when they picked a class. The idea is not to tell you, put in the time and just gear another. But create a situation that you will not regret a choice, hence balance. And in balance there are upsides and downsides that equalize each other.
And not everybody is quite "there" already, many are still upgrading, polishing. How do you tell somebody that finally finished all boons and got the comps JUST right, bought a Staff of Flowers because RNG is never on their side and equipped it - to just switch to another class or even their role they never played, never tried, don't have a single companion for?
!00% true, a situation that shouldn't happen, yet it's there, and why for someone who is not there yet, lets say for someone who is there for a long time.. why should they swap if they don't want to? No one should.
Back to the fundamental point, a player shouldn't feel bad about the class they picked or like and want to play.
Also - when I queue for RIQ/RAQ (pointless content, huh ) and take one of my fav SWs (those that are still here) with me, who got next to the same setup and stats, dmg gear, whatnot - its also obvious. And thats not chill. He is a better player, he should wipe the ground with me.
I don't think there is any argument that there is a large disparity between some roles and classes. Even in a game like Skyforge, where you can swap to any class you unlocked at will (somewhat like load-outs in NW, just better) I would still want that that those I like to play will be viable and equal. Having said this, no suggestion I was discussing (whether I like it or less so) didn't contradict that.
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Balance is not only in a dungeon, where people look at the paingiver and want to be somewhere there close, balance is also, as was said, not being shunned from various roles, and more so, balance is about the choice players make. A class is a fundamental choice, not everyone want to swap classes like socks and discard those the less welcomed like used tissue paper. Having at least one of each class is not a requirement to enjoy the game, or not to feel bad about the class choice. A player who constantly think "I should have picked class Y instead of what I picked" will not enjoy the game, even if they do not have issue with the class itself in a run.
Granting some advantage to one class over another will create this issue.
The "all my friends do that too" argument is so tiring after all this time, because we likely play with like-minded people. I don't run a single HAMSTER with white-knights that are turning me into a passive-aggressive ball of rage - so I'm assuming everybody befriends people that have either a similar experience in game, same personality, same mindset - whatever, your pick.
Point of view does explain some things, but we can debate an idea, or we can 'discuss' the people, and some 'discussion' is just a hamster.
"Great Minds Discuss Ideas. Average Minds Discuss Events. Small Minds Discuss People."
Please elaborate. I didn't intend to 'discuss people', which part did you refer to? The white-knights was an ingame situation I had in mind, not from here, were its harder to find white-knights at all.
I don't know people that pick a cleric because "hell yeah I can dps and heal now!!" or a SW because "I like to be full time lame nowadays!" but I figure that there are some people that do!
Take a look at the people who debate with what class to start the game, on reddit, on discord. People do not want to get stuck with a lemon. The more options a class has, the less chance the need to drink a lot of lemonade.
Yes, I agree. Maybe I do not look at the bigger picture enough, but I can see people promoting CW/TR/HR way more than support or two-roles. I'm not against two-role-classes! I agree with the idea that useful two roles for any class would be better than only single role classes. I don't even think we are having much of an argument here, because if the hypothetical starting point would be class balance/ role balance we could go much further then discussion if they even need any balance because of some advantages here or there.
But the game is not only (or mainly) meta groups, premade tomm training runs and "oh shucks my class sucks now, lets equip another for millions of AD!!!" but of people that like to put two hours in and call it a day without trying to explain how this imbalance is impacting the game as a whole, not just the possibility to finish tomm.
Yes, and no, yes, the game is not only tomm, it's just a good example where balance has the most impact, a 10% difference will not be as important everywhere else.
On the other hand, you don't know people who invested a lot in alts because they were frustrated with their original picks?! We all know
Thats not what I meant. I am switching/retiring classes that are not "fun" to play (anymore). I meant that we shouldn't be expected to change classes every other mod or so because thats the so called "adjusting" one would need for endgame content.
But my side note is not important, and obviously not the focus. Lets assume it is as you say, and yes pug life sucks, honestly, wouldn't advice anyone to do that regularly, but the relevant point to this is (and yes some examples were not the best there), if the classes are balanced and not shunned in the most difficult content, they should be viable everywhere else. (there will be variance, but still will be good enough).
This is what I want. Sorry if I didn't clarify that.
Isn't that the point all along? People feeling like the made the wrong choice when they picked a class. The idea is not to tell you, put in the time and just gear another. But create a situation that you will not regret a choice, hence balance. And in balance there are upsides and downsides that equalize each other. ... !00% true, a situation that shouldn't happen, yet it's there, and why for someone who is not there yet, lets say for someone who is there for a long time.. why should they swap if they don't want to? No one should.
Back to the fundamental point, a player shouldn't feel bad about the class they picked or like and want to play.
Yes, that would be nice.
There are not that many points here that I would argue over with you. I too want true balance that lasts for longer than a mod, and I want it regardless if a dps can switch to heal or not.
That's the worst thread conclusion I ever seen. You only repeated your own ideas here. You're not even considering other's opinions on the topic, so I don't really know why you persist on this discussion.
You're right and wrong at the same time. I have repeated the ideas of others in the conclusion, followed by my own commentary and concluded the conclusion with one good and applicable to the topic idea. What else is there constructive in this discussion?
The people for margin are clearly stating the advantages of multi-role i.e. less investment than spending on 2 classes and versatility to name a few. Now look at the replies to them, mostly, " well, i don't want to be a healer so why should i get to suffer?". Every single of these comments are a first-person narrative, which already completely undermines a solution to this issue. Of-course you would want your own class to be the very best that no one ever was, unintentional pun
Btw, i am a dps cleric main and i am saying this. I have no love for the pure dps classes but i can foresee a clear future if there was no margin and as i have already concluded in my previous comment.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Please elaborate. I didn't intend to 'discuss people', which part did you refer to? The white-knights was an ingame situation I had in mind, not from here, were its harder to find white-knights at all.
Ah, my bad, I wasn't sure what you refer to exactly, and thought you talk about the thread in general. In any case I didn't mean to imply you specifically, that was a more general "we".
Hmm some people here seem to have lousy sarcasm detection skills.. maybe that should be included as a new class skill.... when we turn all the classes into hybrid classes..
And as for the "Did you factor in..." litany..
Did YOU factor in the concept that we are not utterly logic deficient? Did you really consider that we may actually know what we're doing and saying? It is always good to have people recognize their own deficiencies, but it would be nice if they did not project them on the entire world at large.
(yeah I know tom's answer was already enough, but this one just chapped my hide.. )
Its not so much a litany or sarcasm as my exasperation every single time the "class balance" complaint is brought up. After six years of this, can't people just stop complaining and play the HAMSTER game already? (/facepalm) My point is, regardless of the MMO you choose play, there will never be "class balance". It is unrealistic and unattainable short of eliminating classes and handing out vanilla NPC-clone characters who have the exact same NPC-clone stats and NPC-clone powers. So what then?
Ignore the other players, improvise, theory-craft and play the game.
Post edited by caldochaud#4880 on
"Talent is a flame. Genius is a fire." - Sir Bernard Williams
No, I'm not sympathetic, and I can't empathize either.
I play the rogue. Do I use the ranged paragon path. Never. I play the Wizard. Do I use the control paragon class? Only when the rest of the team really needs the help. I play the Warlock. Do I play the healing paragon class? Only when the rest of the team really needs the help. I play the Paladin. Do I play the healing paragon class? Only when the rest of the team really needs the help. I play the Barbarian. Do I play the tank paragon class? Never. I play the Cleric. Do I play the healing paragon class? Lately - all the time. Even while campaigning because I find the playstyle relaxing. I play all the classes but two, and I already have the slots waiting for them. Probably start on them before the year's out.
I put the time and effort into building these characters. Grinding for rad and ad. Grinding for equipment. Grinding for boons. Grinding for everything.
I have no patience for people who complain about some wacky concept of class privilege when they could have the same class by putting in the same effort. The fact that they're unwilling - is their problem. Not mine. Not other players. Not the developers.
NW's f2p. Want something? Play for it, or don't, but either way keep your grasping fingers out of my game.
1) Wizard doesn't have a control path. 2) Being able to swap between paths is an advantage. Funnily enough, other games readily acknowledge this and their solution is to penalize classes with more than 1 role by making them perform worse at both roles then classes who only have 1 role. Classic WoW, that MMO that just came out again, you know the one which has been wildly successful, had that design philosophy. I definitely think there is room for improving on that concept, but the first step is admitting that versatility is an advantage and then try to balance from there. 3) The fact that you have 6/8 toons, doesn't make you right or wrong about the topic, so stick to the topic please. Just because you personally don't use the other paths, doesn't mean that there isn't an advantage for someone who does or that other people won't do it. Pretty much everyone i play with is more than willing to take advantage of the versatility offered by multiple roles and the people who play Paladins already do. 4) Its not class privilege, see point 2. Its got nothing to do with time and effort either, I assure you, I put plenty of time and effort into this game. Far more than I should have in fact. 5) It isn't your place to tell people to keep their grasping hands out of anything, we all have our opinions and are able to share them.
Just make a new class... that is after all what your group told everyone to do to adapt... On a side note, ill trade my multi-role garbage for a single role dps that outdoes every other class. Players should not be penalized for the devs lack of resources to actually make a new class. The reason we have these stupid hybrid classes and new paragons is because of the lack of resources to devote to make new classes.. this was the fastest way to roll out "rip-off hybrid classes"
or don't, but either way keep your grasping fingers out of my game.
Sorry , i didn't know you were a developer disguised as a player. I apologise for my rudeness, "please don't ban me".
As for advising everyone to make all toons in the game, you must be really rich. Sorry, but if the dev's ever considered to walk in your directions, i don't think the game would last another year. Most of the population doesn't have the free time that you presumably have but that is clearly besides the point here. My point was to balance classes, and from a developer's point of view, you would like to do it so that all classes are on par. Your idea of just making another character if your not happy with the current one is basically mod 16 all over again. If you had nothing constructive to say, please take your tantrums outside where you don't embarrass yourself.
I'm not too proud to admit that I worded that particular comment pretty poorly - and other comments too. By, "my game," I certainly didn't mean Neverwinter. I meant, all the time and effort I've put into the characters I play with. And by "your grasping," fingers. I was not referring to you. I meant it more generally - the individuals who want the devs to cripple four out of those six characters for the simple reason that they exist.
As for tantrum, I hope that's going too far, but noone likes being condescended to, or having the gristle picked out of their words while the joint's left untouched - and is liable to respond impatiently. And I apologize if that's what I did with your comments. As for embarrassing myself. That's the risk you take whenever you try to reason with someone you deeply disagree with.
As for having nothing constructive to say... there's no polite way to respond to that, and it definitely underscores the folly of attempting to reason any further or repeating again what's already been ignored.
I have been following this topic closely. I am amazed by statements from players that 2-function classes have to remain as they are, in total dismay because their damage is 30% less than 1-function classes. This is a punishment and not a way of compensating classes for having two functions.
To see if I understand, I have a GWF DPS that I have invested in it for almost 4 years, everything in it has only one goal, maximize the damage, of course since it is DPS. But now that I can be a viable Tank, I will spend a few million more AD on companions, insignias, artifacts, mounts ... to be a Tank bis like my DPS should be, to run a random and get a 5k bonus from RAD? Also, should I delete my GF Tank? Why would I need to have two hybrid classes if I can be Tank and DPS in only one?
Well, I won't spend another 4 years getting a viable char as much as DPS as Tank. I hope the promised adjustments come out soon, because I didn't play for so long to be viable, I played and play to be among the best and make any content I want.
Having 2 roles in one class is better than having 2 DPS paragons?
Well, it´s better if you want to complete parties easier. But if you only want to be the best DPS having 2 DPS paragons is oviously better as you have more options.
The devs have said that they consider that all DPS paragons should be on par. I agree with them in that. Perhaps single role classes could have some advantage that does not compromise that balance and that make them more able to get the most of their 2 paragons.
For example being able to switch loadouts without being at a campfire, as long as they are not in combat. And make that worth it by making their 2 paragons viable.
Anyway, all of this is is nonsense if we have, like now, 30 or 40% differences of dps between classes or between paragons in the same class.
Comments
Is the best solution is one with a token, like described and people try to misrepresent, imo, no, not best at all, the benefit there though is a very easy implementation and instead of cost it can be cool-down. and it keeps the role equality.
I would always prefer viable dual roles for all classes, which IMO should be the long term goal there.
I didn't use my bow from a long long long time.
Reduced from two paragons and 3 playstyles to 1/1 is kinda meh. But it's "meta" so rest assured every HR out there, combat it until it's nerfed to what it was before. Then I can go back to trapper and hopefully dread, cause all this vorpal everywhere is bad for my eyes.
There was no raging/swearing or complaining by anyone
Group was formed randomly out of the Legit community channel
we ran 8 runs and then a DC and a pally (i think) ran out of keys
dc and warlock immediately changed load outs to heal specs
1 person came back on a different toon (3rd tank if i remember correctly) and we grabbed another random (dps) from the channel
ran another 5 or 6 runs before i left.
This was a great example of where the multi role ability was a bonus. The group didn't need to wait for 2 heals to become available.
All Dread currently does is a DoT (low damage even for characters without offensive stats capped) and reduction of defense (the stat that counters armor penetration so basically useless if everyone is capped on armor penetration). I hope they add a small buff to encounter damage again after reworking the buff formula.
Every time someone chooses to group with a support class, it helps everyone. Most especially the queues. Someone claimed that nobody queues which is inane. A vast number of players populate the lower queues. That's why those pop faster than the higher queues. The idea that all but a few players are endgame bis with nothing better to do than lfg or form up private groups for lomm is ridiculous. Because in reality, they're the outliers - just can't see past their own swollen egos to notice anyone else. And they're largely irrelevant to the conversation since by their own admission, they form their own groups.
But as I pointed out earlier. The so-called advantage of multiple rolls is illusory. Every time a player opts out of dps, that's another dps spot open. They're moving out of a group that's overpopulated to a group that's underpopulated and in higher demand - making life easier for everyone. Whenever they opt back into the the sea of dps, they just make things harder on themselves and on all the other dps players.
The more this topic is discussed, the more I realize how beneficial the multiple roles are.
I do feel for dps classes that only have one role because I also play some of those classes. Do I wish my Arcanist could heal or tank? I think that would be incredibly interesting. Same with the Whisperknife. I think it would be fascinating to see a different take on tanking utilizing stealth, misdirection, and decoys. But then you've got a situation where healers and tanks get backed up and everyone's waiting. No matter what. Someone's going to wait some of the time.
If you'd stop harping on this fractious token nonsense and sing this tune, I'd be pulling out the spoons.
In theory you can hope for good, in practice the only way to deal with the situation from mod to mod is by shelving class/path A and hop on class/path B and grind your butt to gear up.
This game could not fix bugs that lasted for 3 years and the ammount of devs did not grow in between, and those bugs, once fixed , sometimes popped up 4 mods later again for no obvious reasons.
I thinkh treads like this are good in general, but the community runs in circles since years and there will never be anything like "classbalance" no matter what any dev stated during the last years.
"We collect data to get there and do small steps of adjustments for classes to not screw things up again"...things like this are an empty phrase.
NWO translation: " We actually can`t solve the situation due to lack of missing menpower/will/ knowledge/insight into the game in a hole"
In practice the game was remodeled/simplified to handle those "broken mega buffs" all classes/groups were build arround, a good intention.
What I see in practice is a game where you find 3 dps-classes significantly above the rest in terms of dps, making any attempt to absolve actual content with "non-meta-dps" probelmatic at best.
Actually a pretty small minority runs endcontent and since that gear is not BtA , you have some NWO billioneers and the rest.
A scenario where devs said they wanted to prevent anything like this to happen, as far as I understood.
Content for 0,1% where only 3 dps out of 7 are found to be capable to abslove it in terms of dps (some rare BIS parties excludet, that run premade 24/7 maybe).. in a game where the mass of player can be called casual.
No clue what calculations are behind those decisions, I guess not that many.
I play the rogue. Do I use the ranged paragon path. Never.
I play the Wizard. Do I use the control paragon class? Only when the rest of the team really needs the help.
I play the Warlock. Do I play the healing paragon class? Only when the rest of the team really needs the help.
I play the Paladin. Do I play the healing paragon class? Only when the rest of the team really needs the help.
I play the Barbarian. Do I play the tank paragon class? Never.
I play the Cleric. Do I play the healing paragon class? Lately - all the time. Even while campaigning because I find the playstyle relaxing.
I play all the classes but two, and I already have the slots waiting for them. Probably start on them before the year's out.
I put the time and effort into building these characters. Grinding for rad and ad. Grinding for equipment. Grinding for boons. Grinding for everything.
I have no patience for people who complain about some wacky concept of class privilege when they could have the same class by putting in the same effort. The fact that they're unwilling - is their problem. Not mine. Not other players. Not the developers.
NW's f2p. Want something? Play for it,
or don't, but either way keep your grasping fingers out of my game.
If you're a DPS Barbarian or Warlock you shouldn't be punished just because of having another paragon available.
If you're a Ranger and want to use the bow you shouldn't be either.
Bringing the Fighter up closer to a Rogues DPS obviously isn't the only change the game needs. It's just one that's needed the most right now.
2) Being able to swap between paths is an advantage. Funnily enough, other games readily acknowledge this and their solution is to penalize classes with more than 1 role by making them perform worse at both roles then classes who only have 1 role. Classic WoW, that MMO that just came out again, you know the one which has been wildly successful, had that design philosophy. I definitely think there is room for improving on that concept, but the first step is admitting that versatility is an advantage and then try to balance from there.
3) The fact that you have 6/8 toons, doesn't make you right or wrong about the topic, so stick to the topic please. Just because you personally don't use the other paths, doesn't mean that there isn't an advantage for someone who does or that other people won't do it. Pretty much everyone i play with is more than willing to take advantage of the versatility offered by multiple roles and the people who play Paladins already do.
4) Its not class privilege, see point 2. Its got nothing to do with time and effort either, I assure you, I put plenty of time and effort into this game. Far more than I should have in fact.
5) It isn't your place to tell people to keep their grasping hands out of anything, we all have our opinions and are able to share them.
2) Multiclassing. Neverwinter doesn't have true multiclassing. And it's not a penalty if it's done correctly. It's just the logical outcome of foregoing capstone/higher skills that would have been gained at higher levels in multiple classes. WoW isn't relevant to me. The D&D Player Handbook is. There's an entire section on multiclassing. Very informative. Pages 163-164. But if you're so fond of the "hybrid tax," go play WoW.
3) The fact that I play all these classes makes me more invested than someone who wants to punish classes that he's unwilling to play. Also listed them to add to the consensus that many of us are only interested in playing one paragon path.
4) pointless. What class did you say you play?
5) When you demand changes that not only affect me during group play, but then follow me back into solo play where I spend most of my time, you better believe it's my place to tell you to keep your hands off. It certainly isn't your place to tell me what my place is. I know my place better than you seem to know yours.
And yet again, all three of you completely ignore the gaping wounds in your thought process in favor of picking at scabs. Confront it or don't, but the nitpicking of trifling details is getting old.
It has both Arcanist and Thaumaturge, of which are the best at permanently keeping enemies crowd controlled with the best crowd control effect. I hear it's something called "death."
In fact, every class has said crowd control method, so saying that CW doesn't have CC (or any class, for that matter) is wrong.
Agree...It's easy to claim for a penalization for others when your class role remains untouched.
Sorry , i didn't know you were a developer disguised as a player. I apologise for my rudeness, "please don't ban me".
As for advising everyone to make all toons in the game, you must be really rich. Sorry, but if the dev's ever considered to walk in your directions, i don't think the game would last another year. Most of the population doesn't have the free time that you presumably have but that is clearly besides the point here. My point was to balance classes, and from a developer's point of view, you would like to do it so that all classes are on par. Your idea of just making another character if your not happy with the current one is basically mod 16 all over again. If you had nothing constructive to say, please take your tantrums outside where you don't embarrass yourself.
Everybody is so busy pointing fingers and considering their opinion most important, either because they have been here from the start OR because they run the sophisticated endgame version of the "kinda-weird" OR simply because everybody ELSE just GOT to be an idiot...
The game is not only existing for people that run Tomm, but its also existing for people that want to farm it with all of their toons. That there is some up-sides to be able to utilise a char with two roles however its needed I get, but that's simply not the case for all the players in the game.
The "all my friends do that too" argument is so tiring after all this time, because we likely play with like-minded people. I don't run a single HAMSTER with white-knights that are turning me into a passive-aggressive ball of rage - so I'm assuming everybody befriends people that have either a similar experience in game, same personality, same mindset - whatever, your pick.
I don't know people that pick a cleric because "hell yeah I can dps and heal now!!" or a SW because "I like to be full time lame nowadays!" but I figure that there are some people that do!
A lot of this discussion is pointless because everybody is already pissed at the other before they even heard their opinion on a matter (which, in most cases, are easy to guess right now.)
But the game is not only (or mainly) meta groups, premade tomm training runs and "oh shucks my class sucks now, lets equip another for millions of AD!!!" but of people that like to put two hours in and call it a day without trying to explain how this imbalance is impacting the game as a whole, not just the possibility to finish tomm.
If there is a class that sucks, this class gets shunned. We have seen it happen before. That also means: Guildies telling you not to create an alt of that class, guides that are outdated because the player writing it either left NW or switched main, and, even tho pugging is only for the low lifes like me and a majority of casual players, getting kicked/shunned/asked about it because of their class.
I do still remember people laughing about HR and how I sticked to it simply because it was my first character and I liked it - and I wasn't interacting with the community much for the first 6 months of playing this game. When people told me to start a "real" dps I was already decent with it (I didn't touch combat for a long time cause that felt a bit TR for me
I do have my alts and I could, maybe, if I really really wanted to, get another ready for the potential close future of a "bad" HR. But why.. I want to enjoy the game, not cry after millions lost.
And not everybody is quite "there" already, many are still upgrading, polishing. How do you tell somebody that finally finished all boons and got the comps JUST right, bought a Staff of Flowers because RNG is never on their side and equipped it - to just switch to another class or even their role they never played, never tried, don't have a single companion for?
Also - when I queue for RIQ/RAQ (pointless content, huh
If you don't have time or are too lazy to build another toon, we shouldn't get to suffer
I chose my toon because i wanted to do dps, prior to mod 16 (really? have you read my initial post?)
I don't want to heal with my toon because it sucks, so why should my dps suffer (is that your way of explaining how multi-role is not an advantage?)
I chose my toon because i liked its play style or by fluke and somehow i got attached to it (shouldn't even be considered in this discussion tbh)
If you're a DPS non-meta class, you shouldn't be punished just because of having another paragon available (then make another toon lol, Jks. Seriously, why shouldn't you? Considering you are not going to moan about the fact that mod 16 made you into a multi-role, then what else can you justify it with?).
There is no advantage to a multi-role, because you cannot heal and dps and vice versa with tanking at the same time (Holy! That is putting words in our mouth).
There is no advantage to a multi-role, i can queue up as only one at a time (completely disregarding the choice here, i can queue which ever i want and whenever i want and whenever it is required or whenever it is more beneficial. But of course, that is irrelevant to you because the game only caters to yours and your's truly).
The only sensible argument was that the pure dps classes have more choice in terms of dps i.e. 2 dps paragons than current non-meta classes. But as it stands, only 1 paragon of the pure dps classes is used, the other is just sitting there.
Lastly, wizard and rogues are a great example of ST damage but lacking in AOE in comparison to other classes. If their ST target was matched by other classes, then their aoe also needs to be made on par. I can actually see the dev's making all classes equal right now. Not surprisingly then, the players who segregated to these 2 classes will cry for few months and then populate into the current non-meta classes. More money for the game, and easily fooled population. A win win situation. Then it'll be back to square one, mod 26 and we all cry. lol
In other things while annoying, and unfair, there is a much lower chance of exclusion. Or completion issue due to a class. I don't think anyone said anything against that, even the most contested suggestion relies on the premise that each class has viable and equal role. A player is free not to use an advantage. If it's a minority, the advantage stands, if some "on paper" advantage is not used at all in practice then it's not real advantage.
In this case, swapping roles on existing chars is used, a lot. Point of view does explain some things, but we can debate an idea, or we can 'discuss' the people, and some 'discussion' is just a hamster.
"Great Minds Discuss Ideas. Average Minds Discuss Events. Small Minds Discuss People." Take a look at the people who debate with what class to start the game, on reddit, on discord. People do not want to get stuck with a lemon. The more options a class has, the less chance the need to drink a lot of lemonade. It was pointless before it even began, but what else you get to do at the food break at work?! :P Yes, and no, yes, the game is not only tomm, it's just a good example where balance has the most impact, a 10% difference will not be as important everywhere else.
On the other hand, you don't know people who invested a lot in alts because they were frustrated with their original picks?! We all know Filthy low life pug! ;p
Not really important to the argument, but as a side note, I don't think you should attribute "pugging is for the majority of the casual players", maybe yes, maybe no, but we go back to the what we personally know. Most (and I mean as 95+%) of the players I know, in guild, and so on, are on the casual side of players, from couple of hours per day, to weekend only, to long breaks.
And if they mainly pug or not? Is alliance for example considered pugging? If not, then no.
But my side note is not important, and obviously not the focus. Lets assume it is as you say, and yes pug life sucks, honestly, wouldn't advice anyone to do that regularly, but the relevant point to this is (and yes some examples were not the best there), if the classes are balanced and not shunned in the most difficult content, they should be viable everywhere else. (there will be variance, but still will be good enough).
Ofc there is no intent to harm anyone's ability to pug life. Isn't that the point all along? People feeling like the made the wrong choice when they picked a class. The idea is not to tell you, put in the time and just gear another. But create a situation that you will not regret a choice, hence balance. And in balance there are upsides and downsides that equalize each other. !00% true, a situation that shouldn't happen, yet it's there, and why for someone who is not there yet, lets say for someone who is there for a long time.. why should they swap if they don't want to? No one should.
Back to the fundamental point, a player shouldn't feel bad about the class they picked or like and want to play. I don't think there is any argument that there is a large disparity between some roles and classes. Even in a game like Skyforge, where you can swap to any class you unlocked at will (somewhat like load-outs in NW, just better) I would still want that that those I like to play will be viable and equal.
Having said this, no suggestion I was discussing (whether I like it or less so) didn't contradict that.
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Balance is not only in a dungeon, where people look at the paingiver and want to be somewhere there close, balance is also, as was said, not being shunned from various roles, and more so, balance is about the choice players make. A class is a fundamental choice, not everyone want to swap classes like socks and discard those the less welcomed like used tissue paper.
Having at least one of each class is not a requirement to enjoy the game, or not to feel bad about the class choice. A player who constantly think "I should have picked class Y instead of what I picked" will not enjoy the game, even if they do not have issue with the class itself in a run.
Granting some advantage to one class over another will create this issue.
The white-knights was an ingame situation I had in mind, not from here, were its harder to find white-knights at all.
Yes, I agree. Maybe I do not look at the bigger picture enough, but I can see people promoting CW/TR/HR way more than support or two-roles.
I'm not against two-role-classes! I agree with the idea that useful two roles for any class would be better than only single role classes.
I don't even think we are having much of an argument here, because if the hypothetical starting point would be class balance/ role balance we could go much further then discussion if they even need any balance because of some advantages here or there.
Yeah, exactly
I really adored the pug-pic, btw. Thanks
This is what I want. Sorry if I didn't clarify that. Yes, that would be nice.
There are not that many points here that I would argue over with you.
I too want true balance that lasts for longer than a mod, and I want it regardless if a dps can switch to heal or not.
The people for margin are clearly stating the advantages of multi-role i.e. less investment than spending on 2 classes and versatility to name a few. Now look at the replies to them, mostly, " well, i don't want to be a healer so why should i get to suffer?". Every single of these comments are a first-person narrative, which already completely undermines a solution to this issue. Of-course you would want your own class to be the very best that no one ever was, unintentional pun
Btw, i am a dps cleric main and i am saying this. I have no love for the pure dps classes but i can foresee a clear future if there was no margin and as i have already concluded in my previous comment.
Ignore the other players, improvise, theory-craft and play the game.
As for tantrum, I hope that's going too far, but noone likes being condescended to, or having the gristle picked out of their words while the joint's left untouched - and is liable to respond impatiently. And I apologize if that's what I did with your comments. As for embarrassing myself. That's the risk you take whenever you try to reason with someone you deeply disagree with.
As for having nothing constructive to say... there's no polite way to respond to that, and it definitely underscores the folly of attempting to reason any further or repeating again what's already been ignored.
To see if I understand, I have a GWF DPS that I have invested in it for almost 4 years, everything in it has only one goal, maximize the damage, of course since it is DPS. But now that I can be a viable Tank, I will spend a few million more AD on companions, insignias, artifacts, mounts ... to be a Tank bis like my DPS should be, to run a random and get a 5k bonus from RAD? Also, should I delete my GF Tank? Why would I need to have two hybrid classes if I can be Tank and DPS in only one?
Well, I won't spend another 4 years getting a viable char as much as DPS as Tank. I hope the promised adjustments come out soon, because I didn't play for so long to be viable, I played and play to be among the best and make any content I want.
Well, it´s better if you want to complete parties easier. But if you only want to be the best DPS having 2 DPS paragons is oviously better as you have more options.
The devs have said that they consider that all DPS paragons should be on par. I agree with them in that. Perhaps single role classes could have some advantage that does not compromise that balance and that make them more able to get the most of their 2 paragons.
For example being able to switch loadouts without being at a campfire, as long as they are not in combat. And make that worth it by making their 2 paragons viable.
Anyway, all of this is is nonsense if we have, like now, 30 or 40% differences of dps between classes or between paragons in the same class.