> @darthpotater said: > All this discussion in interesting, hard to find a long term solution but: > > A good start could be change finally the dmg formula because how can you balance classes if they use different methods of calculating dmg? and then if they achieve a min-max of 5% difference between classes... people will accept that? > > OHHHHHH NO. ToMM Calls will be full of that class that is ahead ofc. But wake up. Achieving that will be a MIRACLE. This game has 6 years and we never had a meta with anything near to 5% difference in DPS between classes. > > Give thanks if you still have a role to play after the big rework.
If there is a 5% margin, people wont even notice the difference.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
If there is a 5% margin, people wont even notice the difference.
Your understimate the power of the "tendencies" and "meta" in videogames. Once the best class is "discovered" everyone will follow.
It already happened in the past when the GWF were gods and groups only needed 1 DPS. Best CW and TRs were in that 5% if not closer to GWF and the runs were ¿20secs? or less difference but everyone wanted GWFs.
And we had other periods with the 3xCW meta when other classes could bring more with stacking buffs.
If there is a 5% margin, people wont even notice the difference.
Your understimate the power of the "tendencies" and "meta" in videogames. Once the best class is "discovered" everyone will follow.
It already happened in the past when the GWF were gods and groups only needed 1 DPS. Best CW and TRs were in that 5% if not closer to GWF and the runs were ¿20secs? or less difference but everyone wanted GWFs.
And we had other periods with the 3xCW meta when other classes could bring more with stacking buffs.
But well as I said dont dream with that 5%
I disagree, 5% is actually nothing. It's coming from someone who as a dps cleric is matching/beating dps with wizards, rogues in TOMM with more gear. Skill is just a huge part of your dps. The only issue i have is people's mentality, if they see a dps cleric, they'll outright think of it as bad in dps. For TOMM, i can easily match the dps check or higher with 150k power. Tested it with ACT as well and i only play cleric, i don't have any other chars.
That is also why i never say anything about the exact margin difference between non-meta and pure dps classes. I know for a fact that a cleric is not 30% off in margin but can't say the same for warlocks and fighters or barbs. Cleric dps is also a difficult class to master.
I remember a statement from a Dev on a similar topic, and he said there would be no 100% perfect balance and that ranger classes would have to do 5% less damage than melee classes. This I could understand since being able to attack from a certain distance is much more convenient. This thinking should no longer exist with current Dev's, as they have launched specific rings to mitigate the damage of these class types.
if you never will balance dps, so is better dont have pure dps, but buffers instead . so everbody is a dps. lets call that "the red solution"
OR
if you have some balance between full dps classes, but for the other classes your "non dps role" work, well, improve a dps role to be able to do the same on the top of damage.
as a bladmaster have a easy spot, dealing the same damage as today but having +40%of hp, extra threat and block looks a big problem? i think not. then adjust old/new gears bonus to roles and done.
note: ignoring sw, we already have that difference: dual roles have your damage additive, single roles, multiplicative. i will call that a "god bless solution".
If there is a 5% margin, people wont even notice the difference.
Your understimate the power of the "tendencies" and "meta" in videogames. Once the best class is "discovered" everyone will follow.
It already happened in the past when the GWF were gods and groups only needed 1 DPS. Best CW and TRs were in that 5% if not closer to GWF and the runs were ¿20secs? or less difference but everyone wanted GWFs.
And we had other periods with the 3xCW meta when other classes could bring more with stacking buffs.
But well as I said dont dream with that 5%
I disagree, 5% is actually nothing. It's coming from someone who as a dps cleric is matching/beating dps with wizards, rogues in TOMM with more gear. Skill is just a huge part of your dps. The only issue i have is people's mentality, if they see a dps cleric, they'll outright think of it as bad in dps. For TOMM, i can easily match the dps check or higher with 150k power. Tested it with ACT as well and i only play cleric, i don't have any other chars.
That is also why i never say anything about the exact margin difference between non-meta and pure dps classes. I know for a fact that a cleric is not 30% off in margin but can't say the same for warlocks and fighters or barbs. Cleric dps is also a difficult class to master.
We are both saying the same thing. People is the problem. Some classes are harder to take the best of them. But people decides what they take before giving you a try.
I play wizard since the first day of the game, and only with that you learn lots of things like positioning, animation canceling, walking vs teleporting, just only with that you can perform much better than others.
That happens in every class, so the % of difference in dmg is very hard to measure you need the same skilled player with the same experience in every class to have a semi-objetive result.
The conclussion is that people dont want to take risks and go with the most favorable (or easy) class that offers the best result in average.
Thats why content like ToMM is needed because you cant pug it (for now) and is best when you know the other people and what they can do.
> @zimxero#8085 said: > Having two DPS paragons does NOT entitle the class to have better DPS than single DPS path classes.
This right here. I don't know where this idea came from and don't recall the devs stating this was their intention for CW, TR, HR to have higher dps than dual role classes. It doesn't make sense to me. A dps is a dps. The dps paths of dual role classes should be just as viable and effective as CW, TR, and HR. Some say dual role classes have higher value since you can queue faster, etc. This value diminishes if your choice is to only play the dps path because it's what you like or what you've always played. Your dps shouldn't be punished for doing so.
> @evergreenzz said: > So far nobody seems to acknowledge the advantage 'pure' dps classes inherently have (class balance aside) in simply having more at wills, encounter powers, dailies and class feats at their disposal to accomplish their role and suit playstyle. With the mod 16 changes this versatility is exclusive to wizards, rogues and rangers and limited to the dps role, since there is no tank/tank, healer/healer class. This already limits the rest classes to Jack of all trades, master of none.
Pure dps classes may have more options, but that doesn't make them all as viable and effective. Almost everybody plays the same build for these TR Assassin, HR Warden, CW Thaum (Arcanist M17). The value in these bis builds lies in their multiplicative % based dmg buffs. Since we've learned dual role classes have additive buffs instead, their dps paths lose value. (Except SW) Warlock having multiplicative buffs isn't good enough to keep it competitive. Boy did they mess that class up... Warlocks may also get the nerf hammer yet again, since devs said they plan to adjust the multiplicative dmg formulas on TR, HR, CW, and... SW.
Comments
> All this discussion in interesting, hard to find a long term solution but:
>
> A good start could be change finally the dmg formula because how can you balance classes if they use different methods of calculating dmg? and then if they achieve a min-max of 5% difference between classes... people will accept that?
>
> OHHHHHH NO. ToMM Calls will be full of that class that is ahead ofc. But wake up. Achieving that will be a MIRACLE. This game has 6 years and we never had a meta with anything near to 5% difference in DPS between classes.
>
> Give thanks if you still have a role to play after the big rework.
If there is a 5% margin, people wont even notice the difference.
It already happened in the past when the GWF were gods and groups only needed 1 DPS. Best CW and TRs were in that 5% if not closer to GWF and the runs were ¿20secs? or less difference but everyone wanted GWFs.
And we had other periods with the 3xCW meta when other classes could bring more with stacking buffs.
But well as I said dont dream with that 5%
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That is also why i never say anything about the exact margin difference between non-meta and pure dps classes. I know for a fact that a cleric is not 30% off in margin but can't say the same for warlocks and fighters or barbs. Cleric dps is also a difficult class to master.
if you never will balance dps, so is better dont have pure dps, but buffers instead . so everbody is a dps. lets call that "the red solution"
OR
if you have some balance between full dps classes, but for the other classes your "non dps role" work, well, improve a dps role to be able to do the same on the top of damage.
as a bladmaster have a easy spot, dealing the same damage as today but having +40%of hp, extra threat and block looks a big problem? i think not. then adjust old/new gears bonus to roles and done.
note: ignoring sw, we already have that difference: dual roles have your damage additive, single roles, multiplicative. i will call that a "god bless solution".
I play wizard since the first day of the game, and only with that you learn lots of things like positioning, animation canceling, walking vs teleporting, just only with that you can perform much better than others.
That happens in every class, so the % of difference in dmg is very hard to measure you need the same skilled player with the same experience in every class to have a semi-objetive result.
The conclussion is that people dont want to take risks and go with the most favorable (or easy) class that offers the best result in average.
Thats why content like ToMM is needed because you cant pug it (for now) and is best when you know the other people and what they can do.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
> Having two DPS paragons does NOT entitle the class to have better DPS than single DPS path classes.
This right here. I don't know where this idea came from and don't recall the devs stating this was their intention for CW, TR, HR to have higher dps than dual role classes. It doesn't make sense to me. A dps is a dps. The dps paths of dual role classes should be just as viable and effective as CW, TR, and HR. Some say dual role classes have higher value since you can queue faster, etc. This value diminishes if your choice is to only play the dps path because it's what you like or what you've always played. Your dps shouldn't be punished for doing so.
> So far nobody seems to acknowledge the advantage 'pure' dps classes inherently have (class balance aside) in simply having more at wills, encounter powers, dailies and class feats at their disposal to accomplish their role and suit playstyle. With the mod 16 changes this versatility is exclusive to wizards, rogues and rangers and limited to the dps role, since there is no tank/tank, healer/healer class. This already limits the rest classes to Jack of all trades, master of none.
Pure dps classes may have more options, but that doesn't make them all as viable and effective. Almost everybody plays the same build for these TR Assassin, HR Warden, CW Thaum (Arcanist M17). The value in these bis builds lies in their multiplicative % based dmg buffs. Since we've learned dual role classes have additive buffs instead, their dps paths lose value. (Except SW) Warlock having multiplicative buffs isn't good enough to keep it competitive. Boy did they mess that class up... Warlocks may also get the nerf hammer yet again, since devs said they plan to adjust the multiplicative dmg formulas on TR, HR, CW, and... SW.