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Class balance yet again.
I found a very constructive reply in a discussion that is closed due to obvious reasons. The comment is by Hrakh:
"Volume matters. Of course TOMM has not yet reached a point where there is a lot of volume yet, but it would be nice if we could stop treating a couple of non-meta successes as being applicable to the greater whole. You don't refer to them as non-meta for nothing.
I am happy to know that there are people that can do TOMM on a DPS Warlock, I am happy to know that non-meta groups can complete it. Its good news, but until as many Archery Rangers, DPS Clerics or DPS Barbarians have finished that thing as Wizards Rogues or melee Rangers have.. Balance is still obviously an issue."
The reason i felt that this was of concern is due to the availability of data that shows that non-meta classes are able to complete TOMM. By no means is this post targeted at a particular person or a group of people, the only purpose is to acknowledge that whilst the above is true, there are some limitations to it.
Though limited in samples, what this data doesn't show is if each respective non-meta dps class is able to finish the trial as 6 dps' or vice versa for the healing ? The latter is not the focus of this discussion as that would require a separate discussion.
Other relevant questions to consider would be, what is the minimum power required for each respective non-meta class? How many tries it took? Is the player playing them at skill ceiling? How far away are these numbers from the meta classes?
If however, the dev's get a huge sample of data stating that non-meta classes are able to finish the trial, then the above questions will be of less relevance. Just as you can expect from the data that 6 wizard's are more than able to complete the trial with a minimum of 150-160k power, does the data suggest otherwise for the non-meta classes?
I believe so, and even though i do not possess the data, it is but so visibly apparent.
The moral of the story is that the Dev's should first decide on if hybrid/ multi-role capable classes are meant to be doing similar damage as classes that only have dps as both paragons? If not, then what is the margin that would be acceptable? Right now the margin is way too large, large enough to force some to create a wiz character. That to me is absurd, beyond ........ #endrant
"Volume matters. Of course TOMM has not yet reached a point where there is a lot of volume yet, but it would be nice if we could stop treating a couple of non-meta successes as being applicable to the greater whole. You don't refer to them as non-meta for nothing.
I am happy to know that there are people that can do TOMM on a DPS Warlock, I am happy to know that non-meta groups can complete it. Its good news, but until as many Archery Rangers, DPS Clerics or DPS Barbarians have finished that thing as Wizards Rogues or melee Rangers have.. Balance is still obviously an issue."
The reason i felt that this was of concern is due to the availability of data that shows that non-meta classes are able to complete TOMM. By no means is this post targeted at a particular person or a group of people, the only purpose is to acknowledge that whilst the above is true, there are some limitations to it.
Though limited in samples, what this data doesn't show is if each respective non-meta dps class is able to finish the trial as 6 dps' or vice versa for the healing ? The latter is not the focus of this discussion as that would require a separate discussion.
Other relevant questions to consider would be, what is the minimum power required for each respective non-meta class? How many tries it took? Is the player playing them at skill ceiling? How far away are these numbers from the meta classes?
If however, the dev's get a huge sample of data stating that non-meta classes are able to finish the trial, then the above questions will be of less relevance. Just as you can expect from the data that 6 wizard's are more than able to complete the trial with a minimum of 150-160k power, does the data suggest otherwise for the non-meta classes?
I believe so, and even though i do not possess the data, it is but so visibly apparent.
The moral of the story is that the Dev's should first decide on if hybrid/ multi-role capable classes are meant to be doing similar damage as classes that only have dps as both paragons? If not, then what is the margin that would be acceptable? Right now the margin is way too large, large enough to force some to create a wiz character. That to me is absurd, beyond ........ #endrant
Post edited by sobi#1980 on
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2. From a lot of testing we know that there is about a 40% spread between classes, with the Fighter DPS being on the bottom, and Rogues at the top when considering single target damage, and lets be frank, it's the only damage that really matters. As long as there is a spread greater than say 5%, there will be prejudice when forming end game groups.
3. Those of us that math/thoery-craft know that the proposed (yet simplistic) change to damage formulas that would be part of class balance:
Final Damage = Damage * CA * Crit * (All buffs added together) will actually widen the gap between classes, unless all class based buffs are removed or changed to give extra magnitude damage procs instead of Percent damage gains, as equipment and items will be more effective on some classes than others.
For example the demon Lord Set would be approximately 4% more effective on a barbarian than it would be on a Arcanist wizard.
4. ToMM isn't actually very hard, if you take the time to learn and practice the mechanics, AND IF you have a lot of practice as a TEAM. The difficulty is getting a team together that has the will and patience to practice, thankfully no one needs to learn these mechanics from scratch due to the work Viral, Sharp, Lightbringer, and others have done to fully document the mechanics. The truth is, if you can make the second phase DPS check, you have enough DPS as a party to finish the Trial, the trick is not to get knocked down into revival sickness purgatory
5. There are plenty of ToMM viable class combinations, but like many things in the history of this game, the "meta" is the easiest/optimal combination.
For example, a Warlock DPS build IS viable for ToMM, but wouldn't be anyones first, second, or third choice as a party member to run that content, because it makes the content harder to run... it's not because the warlock can't make the DPS check, it's because it takes less stacks of revival sickness before it can no longer make the check.
6. See points 4 and 5 when thinking about non meta classes.. the successes with those indeed applies to the whole, it's just that we have more examples of the "meta" completing because it's easier, and the teams that actually took the time to practice of preview ran the metas. Those teams had a 4-6 week head start on those that chose to wait, therefore a LOT more practice.
Look at healers when we talk meta, all three classes that can go as healers are perfectly viable. It's just that having a paladin healer in party buys more "forgiveness" for those that don't have all the mechanics down, even though the cleric kicks it's butt in heals per second, and the warlock is far more effective at directed/ streaming heals.
This player community has a very long history of confusing viable with optimal, frankly it's frustrating. Learn your class, learn the dungeon mechanics, socialize, and swallow some of your pride... do those things and you will find that no content is out of your reach.
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"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
We haven't "hybrid" classes in Neverwinter, when a two roles class is DPS you are only a damage dealer, you haven't any threat mechanic on Blademaster or Dreadnought, I can't heal on my Hellbringer. And yes, devs said that their goal is to have all DPS paths as a DPS class doing the same damage than "pure" DPS classes. It's a very old World of Warcraft mentality about "hybrid" classes doing less damage than pure. Remember: Not all players runs their alternative role, not all Barbarians are meant to be tanks, and not all Warlocks are meant to be healers (My Warlock have three loadouts only and all of them are Hellbringer builds, i don't like and refuse to play healer on a Warlock, why punish me to do less damage for having a path that i don't use?) Again. The only people that have issues with class balance are those who wants the "hybrid tax".
Rangers, rogues, magicians have only dps paths.
So sorry to tell you, but you play an hybrid class.
> (Quote)
> I think "hybrid class" means a class who can fullfill 2 completely differents roles, like barbarians, priests, paladins, warlocks and fighters.
>
> Rangers, rogues, magicians have only dps paths.
>
> So sorry to tell you, but you play an hybrid class.
A hybrid class would be the dps gf who has a shield, or the dps dc who has healing. Anyway with that limiting of roles un dungeon you can't adjust the party depending on the Situation anymore so hybrid roles are pretty much useless. Before, i could switch to templock easily if there were good dpsers. Now you can't do that. If you queue as healer or dps you stick to that. They completely destroyed the versatility the game had
Guild Leader: Mistaken Identity (formerly Midnight Express)
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See my Youtube Channel for guides and more
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
For those who are arguing about hybrid, all i meant was "multi-role capable" and if that is not an advantage at hand then i am sorry, me and you are on completelyseparate page.
If however, the dev's are true to their intention of keeping all dps classes equal, as they have previously stated, then they must officially state this before they release the new damage formula. I know just because the dev's said something doesn't mean they intend it and that is apparent with the state of the game but at least we can hold them to account. I think a maximum of 10% difference between pure dps classes and others is the limit they shouldn't cross. This also makes it easier to balance dungeons as the margin is not far off.
To break up metas, and group creation prejudice they probably need to ensure that all classes in a DPS role are within 5% of each other from a max potential perspective. If they don't do that, then DPS classes won't be balanced and you will still see stuff like "Looking for DPS" where they only grab the Rogues and Wizards.
I go into some explanations of why that is in this video: Neverwinter Mod 17 Class Rankings and Class Power Balance
Unfortunately, I highly doubt class balance changes will make anyone happy, it's super difficult to accomplish, with a lot of variables to account for.
Guild Leader: Mistaken Identity (formerly Midnight Express)
My Twitch Stream
See my Youtube Channel for guides and more
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
No one is asking for a equilibrium between all dps classes but the margin needs to be smaller than it currently is. People should expect pure dps classes to do more dps because that is the incentive to play them over a multi-role capable class, that players would likely to choose over its versatility.
Right now, the top 3 dps classes are actually very much balanced. In a post, a person mentioned that balance right now is an issue because all that we require from each individual dps class is basically dps, so whoever does more dps wins this race. Therefore, there is literally no other reason to pick a warlock dps than it is to pick a wiz. So considering that, i think that balancing should be but an easy task as there is only really the dps that is effecting the margin.
Like i said before, just because the dev's have said so in the past that they intent to balance all dps classes, that does not mean they will do it. Now this is getting out of hand with TOMM and with many people leaving the game, they really need to pick their pace up.
The reason is simple and that is what i have already mentioned. The choice to determine the best dps factors only the dps of the respective classes. So if a wizard had brought "control" into the fight like it did before mod 16, then that would be give you an incentive to chose wiz over a dps cleric. But right now that is not the case and you would be prejudicing a pure dps class by not compensating them.
I also disagree that when you have 2 roles to choose from, you wouldn't ever play the other one. I really laugh at people who say this and perhaps have played both role. I play healer for faster queues and when i am just not in mood of dps. Although, not geared for tomm as healer, it really is a benefit to have 2 roles for me.
If you chose warlock as pure dps which is the same for barbs, then that is mod 16 at play, which has really took away many things from the veteran and distributed to the new players. What i am talking about is completely different, because your issue would need a separate discussion, probably more than 1. The current issue is how to balance classes after mod 16, so nothing before mod 16 should be applicable, as that was some other game.
So people who ran the dps only role as a warlock for 10 mods are now forced to be healers or mediocre dps.
An underhanded forced role change on an entire class with garbage results and empty promises.
They even based the new core dps mechanics off damanarion, the worst paragon path for dps ever built on warlocks, it's quite obvious what the results they are going for.
Unfortunately the entire class is trash now as both roles.
Abandon hope all ye who play warlocks.
No matter how much you disagree, having 2 roles is always a benefit. If not for you, then for those who use both effectively. The game caters to the majority, and you need to stop prioritizing yourself as the only priority. I am a dps cleric with a difficult class to master and still doing less dmg than other classes. You're not seeing me cry about it?
It is my personal opinion that a small margin is acceptable but you are free to disagree but for me, 2 role advantage is set in stone. The dev's can disagree and that really wouldn't bother me, but unlike you, i keep my bias away from discussions.
https://prnt.sc/p9l4ki
I have all the classes in the game well assembled, but what I enjoy most is Sw.
Does anyone know if any changes are coming?
Because if there is no boring playing neverwinter like that!
It's hard when you see people telling you:
-You're a good player it's a shame you play Warlock-
We need a player like you but with other class..-
I think that any sort of incentive/punishment for choosing a class is wrong, and if devs wants a punishment to the DPS path from two roles classes they need to be clear and make an advice to new people if the class is designed to underperfom in one of their roles (DPS in this case)
Why a new player will pick a Barbarian or a Fighter? Because they can tank?, but their DPS is sub optimal? Why not to pick a Paladin instead?, if they can be good at their both roles? It's a MMO people choose the class for their playstyle preferences, nobody wants to be a subpar character because of the class. Again...You want a game with only three classes as viable-optimal in the DPS role. And a punish for the players that enjoys to play other classes in that role.
The purpose of this discussion was if there should be a margin and i am of the opinion that a small margin is acceptable. Right now ofcourse the margin is way too large but i have voiced my opinion above.
It's also common sense that the dev's would want to cater to the majority. it's a business for crying out loud. Yes, Mod 16 saw a huge outflux of players but that was because the dev's wanted influx of fresh new players that have yet to spend a dime on the game. Though, it didn't work out exactly how they wanted but you do understand where i am going with this?
Each class should bring something new to the table so each dps should bring something the other cannot. However, that is simply not the case right now and that is a major design flaw. Your argument about enjoying every class is understandable but then you wouldn't want a situation where everyone is like " Why go wiz, when it has bad aoe (currently) and his ST can be matched by previous non-meta classes, that are also able to fulfil another role besides it".
But Mod 16 has brought really bitter memories for you that you just do not want to look past it. Whatever decision the dev's may take, they are a business first and foremost. They don't care about individuals as long as they can make money.
At this point in time, the multi-role classes considering themselves to have a "full" DPS option are creating real problems. It was very obvious when Bank Heist had no role restrictions. At least 80% of DCs, SWs and Tanks rocked up with their DPS option, and the group would very often fail miserably without tanks, and especially without a healer.
The real fallout is that the heart of this game, being able to queue for runs where DPS, healers and tanks queue up with roughly the right proportions - is badly broken.
Consider too that reworking of dungeons is an on-going process, and currently there are almost no standard dungeon runs happening. You can easily wait 20+ minutes queued for 15 dungeons as DPS.
Once rewards are reworked and people aren't almost exclusively running MEs for Zok rewards, you should expect handy AD rewards to be a real thing for standard runs, and it'll continue to come with those nice bonuses for queuing as a tank or healer.
So no, I don't think deciding to be a healer when you want to, or demanding to be the DPS equivalent of a full DPS class when you feel like it, and you'll take that nice queuing AD bonus when you want it too- is quite the right and fair thing to do.
Personally, I'm sick of the ME runs, and looking forward to variety of dungeon runs, playing with tanks, healers and DPS that know their thing, and work well together.
I'm also very happy for any class to have anough of a DPS paragon that they can comfortably get through their dailies etc, without needing somebody else to help them out.
Lets just make Rangers, Rogues and Wizards hybrid classes too. After all, the supposed versatility of being a hybrid is much praised by people playing the "pure" DPS classes. Up to where they consider being a hybrid justification for doing less damage using ones DPS option. Obviously this hybrid envy is not a desired state for the game and is likely contributing to the many toxic debates that have been flooding the forum.
So again, lets just make everyone a hybrid. I am sure cryptic can, with some help from existing D&D 5e rules, come up with a Swordmage option for Wizards (tank), a Swashbuckler option for Rogues (also Tank( and a ..well...Ranger option for Rangers as healing is part of the basic D&D ranger makeup.
I am sure some may not agree with this obvious fix for all woes, so to placate them in advance, I suggest we give them exactly the same amount of influence on this change process that the current hybrid classes had when it came to changing their classes for mod 16. After all we have to be fair.....
People will and always will moan. I just don't understand that why people would want to do same dps as pure dps classes and still be able to fulfill another role that is also at the top of the charts. This would require a plethora of resources to make sure all classes are balanced in all spheres. Therefore, if there did exist a margin, it could lean towards the pure dps classes a bit.
You do not want all those wiz's, rangers and rogues crying later on. It's a bloody loohole that people love getting into.
Btw i am replying to you but most of what i said is aimed at others xD.
If u have a margin then the "worse" classes, will most likely be excluded.
> (Quote)
> The thing is, if all classes have equal dps, noone gets excluded from groups
>
> If u have a margin then the "worse" classes, will most likely be excluded.
Only if everybody played it in the same way.
Now, you play class a) you get away with being worse geared / not giving it your all, while you have to be at your best with class b) and still lag behind a not bis class a)
Non-bis dps will always be excluded if there is a bis dps around. But the class specific margin is way off.
100% balance will never be a thing, but it shouldn't be that dominating. A bis arbiter should be able to kick a lacking cw in the butt at all times.
Oh, and what about SW? Who signed up to be a healer when choosing SW, or a "it's not that good dps cause you can heal!!" HB?