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Class balance yet again.

sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
edited September 2019 in Player Feedback (PC)
I found a very constructive reply in a discussion that is closed due to obvious reasons. The comment is by Hrakh:

"Volume matters. Of course TOMM has not yet reached a point where there is a lot of volume yet, but it would be nice if we could stop treating a couple of non-meta successes as being applicable to the greater whole. You don't refer to them as non-meta for nothing.

I am happy to know that there are people that can do TOMM on a DPS Warlock, I am happy to know that non-meta groups can complete it. Its good news, but until as many Archery Rangers, DPS Clerics or DPS Barbarians have finished that thing as Wizards Rogues or melee Rangers have.. Balance is still obviously an issue."


The reason i felt that this was of concern is due to the availability of data that shows that non-meta classes are able to complete TOMM. By no means is this post targeted at a particular person or a group of people, the only purpose is to acknowledge that whilst the above is true, there are some limitations to it.

Though limited in samples, what this data doesn't show is if each respective non-meta dps class is able to finish the trial as 6 dps' or vice versa for the healing ? The latter is not the focus of this discussion as that would require a separate discussion.

Other relevant questions to consider would be, what is the minimum power required for each respective non-meta class? How many tries it took? Is the player playing them at skill ceiling? How far away are these numbers from the meta classes?

If however, the dev's get a huge sample of data stating that non-meta classes are able to finish the trial, then the above questions will be of less relevance. Just as you can expect from the data that 6 wizard's are more than able to complete the trial with a minimum of 150-160k power, does the data suggest otherwise for the non-meta classes?

I believe so, and even though i do not possess the data, it is but so visibly apparent.

The moral of the story is that the Dev's should first decide on if hybrid/ multi-role capable classes are meant to be doing similar damage as classes that only have dps as both paragons? If not, then what is the margin that would be acceptable? Right now the margin is way too large, large enough to force some to create a wiz character. That to me is absurd, beyond ........ #endrant

Post edited by sobi#1980 on
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Comments

  • giz#2086 giz Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    "The moral of the story is that the Dev's should first decide on if hybrid classes are meant to be doing similar damage as pure dps classes?"

    We haven't "hybrid" classes in Neverwinter, when a two roles class is DPS you are only a damage dealer, you haven't any threat mechanic on Blademaster or Dreadnought, I can't heal on my Hellbringer. And yes, devs said that their goal is to have all DPS paths as a DPS class doing the same damage than "pure" DPS classes. It's a very old World of Warcraft mentality about "hybrid" classes doing less damage than pure. Remember: Not all players runs their alternative role, not all Barbarians are meant to be tanks, and not all Warlocks are meant to be healers (My Warlock have three loadouts only and all of them are Hellbringer builds, i don't like and refuse to play healer on a Warlock, why punish me to do less damage for having a path that i don't use?) Again. The only people that have issues with class balance are those who wants the "hybrid tax".
  • tassedethe13tassedethe13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    giz#2086 said:

    We haven't "hybrid" classes in Neverwinter,

    I think "hybrid class" means a class who can fullfill 2 completely differents roles, like barbarians, priests, paladins, warlocks and fighters.

    Rangers, rogues, magicians have only dps paths.

    So sorry to tell you, but you play an hybrid class.

  • giz#2086 giz Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    giz#2086 said:

    We haven't "hybrid" classes in Neverwinter,

    I think "hybrid class" means a class who can fullfill 2 completely differents roles, like barbarians, priests, paladins, warlocks and fighters.

    Rangers, rogues, magicians have only dps paths.

    So sorry to tell you, but you play an hybrid class.

    No, because if you see Hellbringer haven't any healing, and only one damage debuff (HoB) everything is damage. The class that can fit the "hybrid" name in the game is a "pure" DPS class: Ranger, because lots of their powers are support buff/debuff: very small heals (Hunter's teamwork, oak skin) Damage debuff, damage resistance debuff (commanding shot) Boar skin (defense buff) Temp HP (stag heart) Primal Instincts, all with personal DPS. Hybrid means that you can perform different tasks with the same build (damage while tanking, healing while DPS, etc) Here when you're DPS the only thing that you can do is damage, and when you're healer you can only heal. You can't expect to be top DPS on a Devout path being healer vs players with a DPS build.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    Guys please, don't ignore the subject matter at hand. The purpose of this post is to know if there should even be a margin between dps classes?

    For those who are arguing about hybrid, all i meant was "multi-role capable" and if that is not an advantage at hand then i am sorry, me and you are on completelyseparate page.

    If however, the dev's are true to their intention of keeping all dps classes equal, as they have previously stated, then they must officially state this before they release the new damage formula. I know just because the dev's said something doesn't mean they intend it and that is apparent with the state of the game but at least we can hold them to account. I think a maximum of 10% difference between pure dps classes and others is the limit they shouldn't cross. This also makes it easier to balance dungeons as the margin is not far off.
  • lordaeoloslordaeolos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    Guys please, don't ignore the subject matter at hand. The purpose of this post is to know if there should even be a margin between dps classes?

    For those who are arguing about hybrid, all i meant was "multi-role capable" and if that is not an advantage at hand then i am sorry, me and you are on completelyseparate page.

    If however, the dev's are true to their intention of keeping all dps classes equal, as they have previously stated, then they must officially state this before they release the new damage formula. I know just because the dev's said something doesn't mean they intend it and that is apparent with the state of the game but at least we can hold them to account. I think a maximum of 10% difference between pure dps classes and others is the limit they shouldn't cross. This also makes it easier to balance dungeons as the margin is not far off.

    The dev team HAS stated that they intend any class that can queue as DPS would be virtually identical in DPS capability. They are on the record on this forum, as well as on live stream having stated this in regards to class balance.

    To break up metas, and group creation prejudice they probably need to ensure that all classes in a DPS role are within 5% of each other from a max potential perspective. If they don't do that, then DPS classes won't be balanced and you will still see stuff like "Looking for DPS" where they only grab the Rogues and Wizards.

    I go into some explanations of why that is in this video: Neverwinter Mod 17 Class Rankings and Class Power Balance

    Unfortunately, I highly doubt class balance changes will make anyone happy, it's super difficult to accomplish, with a lot of variables to account for.




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  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    sobi#1980 said:

    Guys please, don't ignore the subject matter at hand. The purpose of this post is to know if there should even be a margin between dps classes?

    For those who are arguing about hybrid, all i meant was "multi-role capable" and if that is not an advantage at hand then i am sorry, me and you are on completelyseparate page.

    If however, the dev's are true to their intention of keeping all dps classes equal, as they have previously stated, then they must officially state this before they release the new damage formula. I know just because the dev's said something doesn't mean they intend it and that is apparent with the state of the game but at least we can hold them to account. I think a maximum of 10% difference between pure dps classes and others is the limit they shouldn't cross. This also makes it easier to balance dungeons as the margin is not far off.

    The dev team HAS stated that they intend any class that can queue as DPS would be virtually identical in DPS capability. They are on the record on this forum, as well as on live stream having stated this in regards to class balance.

    To break up metas, and group creation prejudice they probably need to ensure that all classes in a DPS role are within 5% of each other from a max potential perspective. If they don't do that, then DPS classes won't be balanced and you will still see stuff like "Looking for DPS" where they only grab the Rogues and Wizards.

    I go into some explanations of why that is in this video: Neverwinter Mod 17 Class Rankings and Class Power Balance

    Unfortunately, I highly doubt class balance changes will make anyone happy, it's super difficult to accomplish, with a lot of variables to account for.



    No one is asking for a equilibrium between all dps classes but the margin needs to be smaller than it currently is. People should expect pure dps classes to do more dps because that is the incentive to play them over a multi-role capable class, that players would likely to choose over its versatility.

    Right now, the top 3 dps classes are actually very much balanced. In a post, a person mentioned that balance right now is an issue because all that we require from each individual dps class is basically dps, so whoever does more dps wins this race. Therefore, there is literally no other reason to pick a warlock dps than it is to pick a wiz. So considering that, i think that balancing should be but an easy task as there is only really the dps that is effecting the margin.

    Like i said before, just because the dev's have said so in the past that they intent to balance all dps classes, that does not mean they will do it. Now this is getting out of hand with TOMM and with many people leaving the game, they really need to pick their pace up.
  • giz#2086 giz Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    sobi#1980 said:

    Guys please, don't ignore the subject matter at hand. The purpose of this post is to know if there should even be a margin between dps classes?

    For those who are arguing about hybrid, all i meant was "multi-role capable" and if that is not an advantage at hand then i am sorry, me and you are on completelyseparate page.

    If however, the dev's are true to their intention of keeping all dps classes equal, as they have previously stated, then they must officially state this before they release the new damage formula. I know just because the dev's said something doesn't mean they intend it and that is apparent with the state of the game but at least we can hold them to account. I think a maximum of 10% difference between pure dps classes and others is the limit they shouldn't cross. This also makes it easier to balance dungeons as the margin is not far off.

    The dev team HAS stated that they intend any class that can queue as DPS would be virtually identical in DPS capability. They are on the record on this forum, as well as on live stream having stated this in regards to class balance.

    To break up metas, and group creation prejudice they probably need to ensure that all classes in a DPS role are within 5% of each other from a max potential perspective. If they don't do that, then DPS classes won't be balanced and you will still see stuff like "Looking for DPS" where they only grab the Rogues and Wizards.

    I go into some explanations of why that is in this video: Neverwinter Mod 17 Class Rankings and Class Power Balance

    Unfortunately, I highly doubt class balance changes will make anyone happy, it's super difficult to accomplish, with a lot of variables to account for.



    No one is asking for a equilibrium between all dps classes but the margin needs to be smaller than it currently is. People should expect pure dps classes to do more dps because that is the incentive to play them over a multi-role capable class, that players would likely to choose over its versatility.

    Right now, the top 3 dps classes are actually very much balanced. In a post, a person mentioned that balance right now is an issue because all that we require from each individual dps class is basically dps, so whoever does more dps wins this race. Therefore, there is literally no other reason to pick a warlock dps than it is to pick a wiz. So considering that, i think that balancing should be but an easy task as there is only really the dps that is effecting the margin.

    Like i said before, just because the dev's have said so in the past that they intent to balance all dps classes, that does not mean they will do it. Now this is getting out of hand with TOMM and with many people leaving the game, they really need to pick their pace up.
    And..What to do with those players who chose Warlock or Barbarian for DPS when both were PURE DPS classes? Should we suffer the "less damage than pure" concept? What versatility can have a player when you have only a DPS path? Again...I play Warlock I chose it for DPS three year ago, I only play Hellbringer, I don't WANT to play healer. What versatility can I have having half of feats, encounters, class feature and dailies compared with a DPS/DPS class? I know lots of Barbarians/Warlock players that have their characters for DPS only, since before the Mod 16 roles mess. So, should we pay with our damage because we have a role path that we refuse to play? I can't understand why a Warlock/Barbarian player can feel ok sacrificing DPS for having another role. A second path role that maybe not everyone wants to play.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    I am a dps cleric that has played the dps for 98% of the time and currently fully BiS and ready for TOMM. If i am saying to give an incentive to play pure dps classes then surely you don't expect a biased opinion? I also only have one character.

    The reason is simple and that is what i have already mentioned. The choice to determine the best dps factors only the dps of the respective classes. So if a wizard had brought "control" into the fight like it did before mod 16, then that would be give you an incentive to chose wiz over a dps cleric. But right now that is not the case and you would be prejudicing a pure dps class by not compensating them.

    I also disagree that when you have 2 roles to choose from, you wouldn't ever play the other one. I really laugh at people who say this and perhaps have played both role. I play healer for faster queues and when i am just not in mood of dps. Although, not geared for tomm as healer, it really is a benefit to have 2 roles for me.

    If you chose warlock as pure dps which is the same for barbs, then that is mod 16 at play, which has really took away many things from the veteran and distributed to the new players. What i am talking about is completely different, because your issue would need a separate discussion, probably more than 1. The current issue is how to balance classes after mod 16, so nothing before mod 16 should be applicable, as that was some other game.
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 264 Arc User
    Yeah, all tanks and all healers are hybrid in that thinking. There is no pure class for either.
  • giz#2086 giz Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    "Incentive to play pure DPS"...All I see is ex-Warlocks or ex-Barbarians players rerolling a new Wizard, Ranger or Rogue character, because they feel useless as DPS with their Helbringers or Blademasters. 10% less damage for a DPS role is a LOT in this game. 10% or even 5% can mean the difference between a dungeon boss success, or failing and wipe. Tank role has a 10% damage reduction. You want it for a DPS role too? I really want to know what the devs wants in this game, because I really want to play again my Warlock, but I can't if his DPS path should be lesser compared with other classes (No mention to the current class issues and state) it's a game where we grind to get a 3%, 5%, 2,5% more damage piece of gear and you want to have classes with a DPS role with 10% less damage? It's a nonsense.
  • mongol69mongol69 Member Posts: 447 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    Devs force fed warlocks new heal role, that's it. Effectively killed dps path, no updates or fixes for dps, only healer path.

    So people who ran the dps only role as a warlock for 10 mods are now forced to be healers or mediocre dps.

    An underhanded forced role change on an entire class with garbage results and empty promises.

    They even based the new core dps mechanics off damanarion, the worst paragon path for dps ever built on warlocks, it's quite obvious what the results they are going for.

    Unfortunately the entire class is trash now as both roles.

    Abandon hope all ye who play warlocks.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    giz#2086 said:

    "Incentive to play pure DPS"...All I see is ex-Warlocks or ex-Barbarians players rerolling a new Wizard, Ranger or Rogue character, because they feel useless as DPS with their Helbringers or Blademasters. 10% less damage for a DPS role is a LOT in this game. 10% or even 5% can mean the difference between a dungeon boss success, or failing and wipe. Tank role has a 10% damage reduction. You want it for a DPS role too? I really want to know what the devs wants in this game, because I really want to play again my Warlock, but I can't if his DPS path should be lesser compared with other classes (No mention to the current class issues and state) it's a game where we grind to get a 3%, 5%, 2,5% more damage piece of gear and you want to have classes with a DPS role with 10% less damage? It's a nonsense.

    I rephrase; the damage in the game is only really a factor of each classes' dps and therefore you wouldn't play a rogue assassin because you can jump around like a monkey. It has no real benefit in a dungeon except that you do more ST dps with rogue than any other class. Just because you chose warlock however many mods before, the new players that choose the dps paths are prejudiced. You want the best healing capabilities and the best dps and still not think that as an advantage? You really are selfishness, you know that? Also the reason you dislike your healing class is because it sucks and there are better options out there.

    No matter how much you disagree, having 2 roles is always a benefit. If not for you, then for those who use both effectively. The game caters to the majority, and you need to stop prioritizing yourself as the only priority. I am a dps cleric with a difficult class to master and still doing less dmg than other classes. You're not seeing me cry about it?

    It is my personal opinion that a small margin is acceptable but you are free to disagree but for me, 2 role advantage is set in stone. The dev's can disagree and that really wouldn't bother me, but unlike you, i keep my bias away from discussions.
  • giz#2086 giz Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    giz#2086 said:

    "Incentive to play pure DPS"...All I see is ex-Warlocks or ex-Barbarians players rerolling a new Wizard, Ranger or Rogue character, because they feel useless as DPS with their Helbringers or Blademasters. 10% less damage for a DPS role is a LOT in this game. 10% or even 5% can mean the difference between a dungeon boss success, or failing and wipe. Tank role has a 10% damage reduction. You want it for a DPS role too? I really want to know what the devs wants in this game, because I really want to play again my Warlock, but I can't if his DPS path should be lesser compared with other classes (No mention to the current class issues and state) it's a game where we grind to get a 3%, 5%, 2,5% more damage piece of gear and you want to have classes with a DPS role with 10% less damage? It's a nonsense.

    I rephrase; the damage in the game is only really a factor of each classes' dps and therefore you wouldn't play a rogue assassin because you can jump around like a monkey. It has no real benefit in a dungeon except that you do more ST dps with rogue than any other class. Just because you chose warlock however many mods before, the new players that choose the dps paths are prejudiced. You want the best healing capabilities and the best dps and still not think that as an advantage? You really are selfishness, you know that? Also the reason you dislike your healing class is because it sucks and there are better options out there.

    No matter how much you disagree, having 2 roles is always a benefit. If not for you, then for those who use both effectively. The game caters to the majority, and you need to stop prioritizing yourself as the only priority. I am a dps cleric with a difficult class to master and still doing less dmg than other classes. You're not seeing me cry about it?

    It is my personal opinion that a small margin is acceptable but you are free to disagree but for me, 2 role advantage is set in stone. The dev's can disagree and that really wouldn't bother me, but unlike you, i keep my bias away from discussions.
    Oh! Yes, I'm selfish because I chose a class for being a selfish greedy DPS, yes a Warlock the worst DPS class in the game since mod 9-10 (but the only DPS class that is fun for me) , I'm selfish because I want to have fun playing the role that I wanted to play on my character, I'm selfish because I DON'T LIKE Warlock healer... You know it's a game not a work where you should do whatever other people want you to do....It's for having fun not for being forced to play something that you hate...Or I'm wrong? If having two roles comes with a mediocre at best DPS path as tax, it isn't an advantage. For me having two DPS paths is the best advantage.
  • giz#2086 giz Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    And calling me "healing class" when I'm telling you that I only play Hellbringer is just a trolling behaviour, If I want to play healer I'll play a Cleric or Paladin because those are the healing classes that i enjoyed (But not Warlock, I had the bad luck to enjoy Warlock as DPS and not a TR, CW or HR) It's my character loadouts: 0 Healer loadouts, I've never played it on live server, and i haven't any pet for outging healing, etc, I don't care. Your point of view is to have privilege for some classes and the worst for the others, being a two role when you can't play DPS and healing or tank in the same time isn't an advantage.

    https://prnt.sc/p9l4ki


  • martins#2911 martins Member Posts: 51 Arc User
    It's pretty hard to do the last SW dps content, really his damage is terrible. In order to really be called into a good party that ends Tomm, you have to be a healer, nobody wants a dps SW in your party.
    I have all the classes in the game well assembled, but what I enjoy most is Sw.

    Does anyone know if any changes are coming?

    Because if there is no boring playing neverwinter like that!
  • giz#2086 giz Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    I support the concept "bring the player, not the class"
    It's hard when you see people telling you:
    -You're a good player it's a shame you play Warlock-
    We need a player like you but with other class..-
    I think that any sort of incentive/punishment for choosing a class is wrong, and if devs wants a punishment to the DPS path from two roles classes they need to be clear and make an advice to new people if the class is designed to underperfom in one of their roles (DPS in this case)
    Why a new player will pick a Barbarian or a Fighter? Because they can tank?, but their DPS is sub optimal? Why not to pick a Paladin instead?, if they can be good at their both roles? It's a MMO people choose the class for their playstyle preferences, nobody wants to be a subpar character because of the class. Again...You want a game with only three classes as viable-optimal in the DPS role. And a punish for the players that enjoys to play other classes in that role.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    =The game cater to the majority=
    I beg you different. Not the game, not the developers and not the forum.

    In the same time that everyone I have ever encountered in the game is complaining about the lack of content and the trinity in random queue, the official answer is exactly the opposite.
    Not only the official answer contradicts everyone I have ever met but their posts get 8 agrees and plenty of likes.
    Somehow those enthusiastic agreeing players on the forum I never heard on any zone chat and in any party.
    I get that some players turn off the zone chat, I get that some players join parties only with their close friends.
    I do not get how they are so loud on forum though and since when they are the majority.
    .

    I have no idea whatsoever what you are referring to and the point that you are making. But i don't play a pure dps class. You can search me up, i have a cleric and a barb alt that i made just for the bank slots, both are non-meta classes.

    The purpose of this discussion was if there should be a margin and i am of the opinion that a small margin is acceptable. Right now ofcourse the margin is way too large but i have voiced my opinion above.

    It's also common sense that the dev's would want to cater to the majority. it's a business for crying out loud. Yes, Mod 16 saw a huge outflux of players but that was because the dev's wanted influx of fresh new players that have yet to spend a dime on the game. Though, it didn't work out exactly how they wanted but you do understand where i am going with this?
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    giz#2086 said:

    And calling me "healing class" when I'm telling you that I only play Hellbringer is just a trolling behaviour, If I want to play healer I'll play a Cleric or Paladin because those are the healing classes that i enjoyed (But not Warlock, I had the bad luck to enjoy Warlock as DPS and not a TR, CW or HR) It's my character loadouts: 0 Healer loadouts, I've never played it on live server, and i haven't any pet for outging healing, etc, I don't care. Your point of view is to have privilege for some classes and the worst for the others, being a two role when you can't play DPS and healing or tank in the same time isn't an advantage.

    https://prnt.sc/p9l4ki


    All i see is " I'm " throughout your posts. I am just going to ignore you because you still can't justify that having always the option of 2 roles is not an advantage.

    Each class should bring something new to the table so each dps should bring something the other cannot. However, that is simply not the case right now and that is a major design flaw. Your argument about enjoying every class is understandable but then you wouldn't want a situation where everyone is like " Why go wiz, when it has bad aoe (currently) and his ST can be matched by previous non-meta classes, that are also able to fulfil another role besides it".

    But Mod 16 has brought really bitter memories for you that you just do not want to look past it. Whatever decision the dev's may take, they are a business first and foremost. They don't care about individuals as long as they can make money.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User

    1. The Dev team is already on the record to state that all players queuing as DPS should have virtually the same damage capacity. We can argue for or against multi role capable classes being the same or different all we want, it won't what the design team wants to do.

    Lots of things have been said in the past, which means that they're on record, but it doesn't make them a good idea, or something that will necessarily remain part of the ever changing game.

    At this point in time, the multi-role classes considering themselves to have a "full" DPS option are creating real problems. It was very obvious when Bank Heist had no role restrictions. At least 80% of DCs, SWs and Tanks rocked up with their DPS option, and the group would very often fail miserably without tanks, and especially without a healer.
    The real fallout is that the heart of this game, being able to queue for runs where DPS, healers and tanks queue up with roughly the right proportions - is badly broken.

    Consider too that reworking of dungeons is an on-going process, and currently there are almost no standard dungeon runs happening. You can easily wait 20+ minutes queued for 15 dungeons as DPS.
    Once rewards are reworked and people aren't almost exclusively running MEs for Zok rewards, you should expect handy AD rewards to be a real thing for standard runs, and it'll continue to come with those nice bonuses for queuing as a tank or healer.

    So no, I don't think deciding to be a healer when you want to, or demanding to be the DPS equivalent of a full DPS class when you feel like it, and you'll take that nice queuing AD bonus when you want it too- is quite the right and fair thing to do.

    Personally, I'm sick of the ME runs, and looking forward to variety of dungeon runs, playing with tanks, healers and DPS that know their thing, and work well together.
    I'm also very happy for any class to have anough of a DPS paragon that they can comfortably get through their dailies etc, without needing somebody else to help them out.
  • hrakhhrakh Member Posts: 152 Arc User
    I think the solution to all of this has been staring us in the face all this time.

    Lets just make Rangers, Rogues and Wizards hybrid classes too. After all, the supposed versatility of being a hybrid is much praised by people playing the "pure" DPS classes. Up to where they consider being a hybrid justification for doing less damage using ones DPS option. Obviously this hybrid envy is not a desired state for the game and is likely contributing to the many toxic debates that have been flooding the forum.

    So again, lets just make everyone a hybrid. I am sure cryptic can, with some help from existing D&D 5e rules, come up with a Swordmage option for Wizards (tank), a Swashbuckler option for Rogues (also Tank( and a ..well...Ranger option for Rangers as healing is part of the basic D&D ranger makeup.

    I am sure some may not agree with this obvious fix for all woes, so to placate them in advance, I suggest we give them exactly the same amount of influence on this change process that the current hybrid classes had when it came to changing their classes for mod 16. After all we have to be fair.....
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    hrakh said:

    I think the solution to all of this has been staring us in the face all this time.


    So again, lets just make everyone a hybrid. I am sure cryptic can, with some help from existing D&D 5e rules, come up with a Swordmage option for Wizards (tank), a Swashbuckler option for Rogues (also Tank( and a ..well...Ranger option for Rangers as healing is part of the basic D&D ranger makeup.

    But that would mean getting rid of 3 dps paragons and replacing them with either tank/healer. I don't think a company such as cryptic with limited resources will take this risk.

    People will and always will moan. I just don't understand that why people would want to do same dps as pure dps classes and still be able to fulfill another role that is also at the top of the charts. This would require a plethora of resources to make sure all classes are balanced in all spheres. Therefore, if there did exist a margin, it could lean towards the pure dps classes a bit.

    You do not want all those wiz's, rangers and rogues crying later on. It's a bloody loohole that people love getting into.

    Btw i am replying to you but most of what i said is aimed at others xD.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 709 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    > @tom#6998 said:
    > (Quote)
    > The thing is, if all classes have equal dps, noone gets excluded from groups
    >
    > If u have a margin then the "worse" classes, will most likely be excluded.

    Only if everybody played it in the same way.
    Now, you play class a) you get away with being worse geared / not giving it your all, while you have to be at your best with class b) and still lag behind a not bis class a)
    Non-bis dps will always be excluded if there is a bis dps around. But the class specific margin is way off.

    100% balance will never be a thing, but it shouldn't be that dominating. A bis arbiter should be able to kick a lacking cw in the butt at all times.

    Oh, and what about SW? Who signed up to be a healer when choosing SW, or a "it's not that good dps cause you can heal!!" HB?
    Post edited by jules#6770 on
    - bye bye -
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