Considering how Halaster had a habit of cloning himself (Ref: Neverwinter Nights:Hordes of the Underdark) , its too bad the chest didn't have a chance to drop a Halaster clone as a companion...
"Talent is a flame. Genius is a fire." - Sir Bernard Williams
Any chance you will do another re-balance of the classes damage? I don't see the class balance to be well done right now and think another pass needs to happen. With some classes that are about to be left out of the trial due to how they perform I think this should be a big issue in this mod.
Class balance will be something we are continually watching and adjusting, as the recent adjustments to Cleric and Paladin have hopefully made evident. There are some adjustments coming up in the not too distant future and we're currently building in more hooks on the back end to capture more data.
We'd like to make absolutely sure that when we do make adjustments we're not overshooting so we don't have to buff anyone and then immediately nerf them. I do understand the frustration while waiting for these adjustments, however, and we absolutely appreciate your patience.
Any chance you will do another re-balance of the classes damage? I don't see the class balance to be well done right now and think another pass needs to happen. With some classes that are about to be left out of the trial due to how they perform I think this should be a big issue in this mod.
Class balance will be something we are continually watching and adjusting, as the recent adjustments to Cleric and Paladin have hopefully made evident. There are some adjustments coming up in the not too distant future and we're currently building in more hooks on the back end to capture more data.
We'd like to make absolutely sure that when we do make adjustments we're not overshooting so we don't have to buff anyone and then immediately nerf them. I do understand the frustration while waiting for these adjustments, however, and we absolutely appreciate your patience.
I appreciate that. I want all classes to be able to do the new hardest content. If there is too much of an imbalance as right now some of the classes will 100% be left out of the content. I think that the classes are fairly balanced in two groups. The ones you did are similar in balance as are the ones that noworries did are similar in balance. The problem is that the distance between the two groups is vast in mod 16.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
something something was checked with og hunt gear and not new rings something something not bothering to recheck
---
not sure it's too relevant, but assuming the bonuses haven't changed since mod 13, looking at the Kiuno and Wrappers tabs to get a general idea of what counted as ranged or melee (not every ability was checked and you'd need to translate some abilities from the old names to new names) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zVx4NtB1dT3Cm2XpgFmMQqI1fVxc4xPn9O6Lxd34uwI/edit
@asterdahl devaluing doesn't seem likely to me with the trial. not many will be able to complete it anyway and people are going to want to equip stuff at first for themselves. if it isn't salable gear people just won't get it at all and it will be valueless to the people running it and so they will stop running it for something that takes less time. I think it's a super idea to have unbound equipment for sale on the ah or trade if nothing else. it will encourage activity and economy more than anything else. by the time the gear becomes devalued it's going to be on to the next mod.
0
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
There are healer checks in ToMM which are much more demanding than the nostura curse or the boreworm and prior to the nerfs, if 1 of our healers fell off or died we could still finish it just fine.
OoT: The boreworm is not really a heal check. With my HR I found it's less risky just to walk/dodge around and chug a potion from time to time than to rely on a healer thay may get stunned or proned. It's an heal check only if you group up and eat the damage through healing.
Back to the discussion. I understand that you may want to have some difficult content, I like it too as it sets a target to reach. The real issue is that in NWO only the last module top content is really relevant from a reward point of, so if you make it too difficult most people will just give up. At the beginning of the game valuable content was available in all dungeons, each epic dungeon dropped pieces of BOE armor sets, first boss at CN dropped rings, last boss dropped weapons, so people could progress through the game by doing different content, suited to their skill and gear levels. Obviously those more skilled progressed faster but also others could get meaningful stuff and feel a sense of accomplishment and progress. Today you have the choice of either mindlessly grind through super-easy stuff or to do the last top-level content, with almost nothing in between.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
0
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
By the way, do you know what the stat caps are?
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
0
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Class balance will be something we are continually watching and adjusting, as the recent adjustments to Cleric and Paladin have hopefully made evident.
The problem is just that it is next to impossible to balance the classes for all types of content due to certain fundamental decisions. Here is one example - I mostly play as a DPS Cleric - my favourite class/role combo. Now, if I am in a long fight, I can deliver about the same DPS as most of the the other classes (except Wizards, of course). So, is the balance OK? Well, if I am in some content that is dominated by a series of easy fights (trash clearing), I grossly underperform the other classes - this is because of the pip management - some other classes may enter the fight with a hard-hitting encounter off cooldown, while I have to build up pips to maximize my encounters, and by the time I do, the group may be dead.
Now, I'm not really complaining, just pointing out that with design differences like this you cannot balance for all types of content, (boss fights, trash cleaning, PvP, etc..) at the same time.
Hoping for improvements...
3
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Just wondering - are ToMM and the new expeditions considered "Undermountain", for the purposes of the "+5% damage in Undermountain" gear ?
Still consider it very telling that in all the times @asterdahl talked about healers in his very welcome replies, the warlock was never mentioned...
It must either not be a healer.. or its in a good place...
4
arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
> @hrakh said: > Still consider it very telling that in all the times @asterdahl talked about healers in his very welcome replies, the warlock was never mentioned... > > It must either not be a healer.. or its in a good place...
I've heard that warlocks are doing very nicely in the trial, so I am guessing they are in a good place. At least at that end of the skill range.
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
2
arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
My main issue is them keeping it achievable for most of the player base in the time period where the rewards from said content is still relevant to people playing the game. If say in mod19 they give us items for basically free that exceed the usefulness of what can be gotten in ToMM, how many people will even bother with running the trial?
And I sort of doubt that by Mod18 more than say 50% of the playerbase will even have a character that is 24k ilevel, when I doubt now that more than 60% have characters much higher than 21k.
i wonder why people always want the content to be easy, for the past years cryptics model was to relase 1 dungeon, that later on it got heavily nerfed so that everyone can do it, so i am still questioning: WHY?
Why can't people learn, struggle, and beat the dungeon with effort, rather than asking devs to nerf dungeons to make the game effortless...
I mean i wonder what is wrong with them to create so many items, in obsolete content, just to inflate the game memory for nothing... i think cryptics is having a bad model of releasing easy dungeons with new items and later on to make them obsolete to inflate the game.
Game doesn't need to be easy but it also should not cater to a select few. This is a pay to advance game; with that said content should have two version one normal and the other being master. Master should have 2-3x the mechanics and challenge of the normal version and should provide better awards.
Loot:@asterdahl I get that you do not want the weapons to be sold on the auction house, but I feel that at the very least, all the rings up to +4 should be sell able on the auction house with +5 remaining the illusive, hard to get item that is farmed for. This is good for multiple reasons:
1) AD sink. Selling +4 rings drains 10% of their sale value from the auction house. 2) Incentive to continue running the trial for a long period of time. There are very few people who will be able to initially complete the trial. To my knowledge, on preview, my group is the only one which is currently successful at that. Out of that list, there are even fewer who would continue to farm for the +5 rings. Giving us something to do with the excess rings we don't want is some form of incentive. 3) Getting a high ranking ring of a type you do not need, which is good for someone else is frustrating. There is a great video by the developers of path of exile on trade and 1 of the things they comment on is that having a super rare and hard to get item is cool, but part of the bragging rights of having the item comes from the ability to trade it. 4) Incentive to players who have not already unlocked it, to work towards unlocking it as an alternative way of making currency. 5) This isn't something that is going to be, "on farm" for a while. Groups will be trying it and failing it for a long time and being able to complete it, proves that you don't "need" the drops anyhow. 6) Once people have their weapons, there is little incentive to keep running it if it is hard to find people who want to run it. The rings would keep people running it and incentivize them to teach new players how to do the dungeon as they won't always have all the people online they need, instead of just quitting running it entirely.
If you are unwilling to do that, in my opinion then no ring lower than +4 should drop and +1, +2 and +3 should be removed from the drop table. Having rings that serve no purpose to you drop which are bound or have no value is quite frankly insulting, considering the amount of effort and coordination it takes to be able to complete this trial.
We had actually been discussing what to do with these rings internally. Those rings were actually originally made for a totally different piece of more casual content that you'd be able to do much more easily and they were meant to be a reason to keep coming back. That being said, we ended up moving some rewards around and these got moved onto the trial.
We re-examined them and the changes we landed on for live will be the following: the 3 lower ranks of the rings will remain bind on pickup and will not be rewarded in the trial, they'll be rewarded in other more casual content. The two highest rank rings, the 990s and 1010s will drop from the chests in the trial and be bind on equip. Currently, the rings have a chance to replace the random salvage equipment, but they will now have an independent chance of dropping, which will be higher than their chance to replace salvageable gear used to be.
In short, you'll now be able to earn the 990 and 1010 rings from the trial final chests, and sell them or wear them as you see fit.
WOW! This just shows me who the developer are catering to with this mod; the elite players; definitely HAMSTER over your average player with this type of change.
The elite players will come on here and defend this update stating that the average player now has access to the rings. LMAO, yeah but at what price as we all know the trial is not going to be beaten by many players like prior trials.
Make the rings as a 100% random pull from the new ME; this way it is more accessible to all players and not just the elitist in this game.
@asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account while lower version need to be unbound, high item level rings need to be locked behind a time spent + rng in tomm, making them easier to acquire on ah by putting a pay to win mechanic were player cash in zen to then exchange for ad and buy them from ah, because its looking more like a pay to win rings. if this goes like this to live, i don't need to do tomm to get leg ring, i just neeed to farm ad for leg rings
how are these rings pay to win? To have a playerdriven economy does not equal pay 2 win. And yeah, if you cant do Lomm but farm up the AD to buy the rings thats completely fine. Making them unbound has way way way more pros then cons. Its better for ppl that run ToMM since they can trade/sell the rings if they get ones the dont need/want, and its better for ppl that get HAMSTER by RNG, its better for ppl that dont run ToMM since they could buy them, and its better for the AD/ZEN economy since it will drain AD.
I dislike where the top end rings drop from. They also should be placed elsewhere, also unbound, but have a lower % to drop. This would make it so that the average player doesn't feel slighted by this mod. Right now, this mod is for the top 1% in this game and that 1% will see less people playing as there is no new dungeon/trial for the lower geared/non-elite players to run.
This is definitely DWF all over again. Seriously cryptic developers, go to DCUO forms and look up DWF and complaints on that from the community. You can learn from another company mistakes, but I don't think you will.
Any chance you will do another re-balance of the classes damage? I don't see the class balance to be well done right now and think another pass needs to happen. With some classes that are about to be left out of the trial due to how they perform I think this should be a big issue in this mod.
Class balance will be something we are continually watching and adjusting, as the recent adjustments to Cleric and Paladin have hopefully made evident. There are some adjustments coming up in the not too distant future and we're currently building in more hooks on the back end to capture more data.
We'd like to make absolutely sure that when we do make adjustments we're not overshooting so we don't have to buff anyone and then immediately nerf them. I do understand the frustration while waiting for these adjustments, however, and we absolutely appreciate your patience.
If you do class balancing you need to create a guild highlighting AoE and single target builds for each paragon for the pure DPS classes and than for the other classes dps paragon as well. You also should make the guides it available in game to help out new players to the game or to a class.
Even with that said class balancing is a hard as it typically happens at a sparring target. At that you used capture data but are you capturing how a player runs through their rotation, what gear/enchantment the player is using, etc... than using that to help track where things are?
Again, I'm going back to DCUO. They balanced all classes at a sparring target using their so called rotations etc.. the reality was burst type classes did more damage than DoT classes in actual game content. They eventually removed the simplicity and went back to an open game giving player more options as they found out that they cannot truly balance class do to factors and simply now try to get them close enough but not balance.
Any chance you will do another re-balance of the classes damage? I don't see the class balance to be well done right now and think another pass needs to happen. With some classes that are about to be left out of the trial due to how they perform I think this should be a big issue in this mod.
Class balance will be something we are continually watching and adjusting, as the recent adjustments to Cleric and Paladin have hopefully made evident. There are some adjustments coming up in the not too distant future and we're currently building in more hooks on the back end to capture more data.
We'd like to make absolutely sure that when we do make adjustments we're not overshooting so we don't have to buff anyone and then immediately nerf them. I do understand the frustration while waiting for these adjustments, however, and we absolutely appreciate your patience.
If you do class balancing you need to create a guild highlighting AoE and single target builds for each paragon for the pure DPS classes and than for the other classes dps paragon as well. You also should make the guides it available in game to help out new players to the game or to a class.
Even with that said class balancing is a hard as it typically happens at a sparring target. At that you used capture data but are you capturing how a player runs through their rotation, what gear/enchantment the player is using, etc... than using that to help track where things are?
Again, I'm going back to DCUO. They balanced all classes at a sparring target using their so called rotations etc.. the reality was burst type classes did more damage than DoT classes in actual game content. They eventually removed the simplicity and went back to an open game giving player more options as they found out that they cannot truly balance class do to factors and simply now try to get them close enough but not balance.
Balance is bad right now due to the fact that they are balanced at the target dummy. That doesn't provide a good damage balance since not all classes and abilities hit all of the time which skews the end game results of classes when applied to normal game play. Balance at the top in abilities in end game content since mid game just means that a poor mid game class needs a little extra in stats and better items than a good early game class. Bad balance at the end game means a class that doesn't get into content.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
@asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account while lower version need to be unbound, high item level rings need to be locked behind a time spent + rng in tomm, making them easier to acquire on ah by putting a pay to win mechanic were player cash in zen to then exchange for ad and buy them from ah, because its looking more like a pay to win rings. if this goes like this to live, i don't need to do tomm to get leg ring, i just neeed to farm ad for leg rings
how are these rings pay to win? To have a playerdriven economy does not equal pay 2 win. And yeah, if you cant do Lomm but farm up the AD to buy the rings thats completely fine. Making them unbound has way way way more pros then cons. Its better for ppl that run ToMM since they can trade/sell the rings if they get ones the dont need/want, and its better for ppl that get HAMSTER by RNG, its better for ppl that dont run ToMM since they could buy them, and its better for the AD/ZEN economy since it will drain AD.
I dislike where the top end rings drop from. They also should be placed elsewhere, also unbound, but have a lower % to drop. This would make it so that the average player doesn't feel slighted by this mod. Right now, this mod is for the top 1% in this game and that 1% will see less people playing as there is no new dungeon/trial for the lower geared/non-elite players to run.
This is definitely DWF all over again. Seriously cryptic developers, go to DCUO forms and look up DWF and complaints on that from the community. You can learn from another company mistakes, but I don't think you will.
interesting, so u basically think that the rewards should not correlate with the effort put into? Or how should we interpret this? There is already WAY to much valuable loot in Mindnumbing, 0 effort MEs that require nothing of the player except time. If this is where all the valuable loot should come from they can outright remove dungeons from the game, cause whats the point then?
I strongly disagree with the Idea that the only factor in what loot u get during your playtime is RNG, that turns this game into a slot machine and nothing else.
Bug Hypothermia My warlock had 383k HP and 80k Defense, (she also had >350k shielded HP), I think she shouldn't have died in this situation: The arrows were not targeted at my warlock. Sadly I did not run the combatlog.
Bug Hypothermia My warlock had 383k HP and 80k Defense, (she also had >350k shielded HP), I think she shouldn't have died in this situation: The arrows were not targeted at my warlock. Sadly I did not run the combatlog.
Your crit avoidance is very low - you can see on the picture you were critically hited - WAI.
Bug Hypothermia My warlock had 383k HP and 80k Defense, (she also had >350k shielded HP), I think she shouldn't have died in this situation: The arrows were not targeted at my warlock. Sadly I did not run the combatlog.
Your crit avoidance is very low - you can see on the picture you were critically hited - WAI.
Dont blame game for your lack of stats here
Critical Avoidance only reduce "chance" to get critical hit. Not dmg.
1)shielded HP should be over 500k (if you would go with x2 paladins) it will raise up your survivability. 2)as we can see from screen 1 you were only 3-4 ppl at "arrow" area. on 2nd screen , only 2 ppl over there...instead to be all together and split dmg. Seems like you havn't done mehanics properly , and as a result = death.
New weapons, would be only 2% higer base dmg then previous (with no useful bonuses) 100%+5% of pwer , still will be more useful, then 102% +5% arm.pen. and 5% def. any ideas to rework new wepaons !? Thank you.
Bug Hypothermia My warlock had 383k HP and 80k Defense, (she also had >350k shielded HP), I think she shouldn't have died in this situation: The arrows were not targeted at my warlock. Sadly I did not run the combatlog.
Your crit avoidance is very low - you can see on the picture you were critically hited - WAI.
Dont blame game for your lack of stats here
Critical Avoidance only reduce "chance" to get critical hit. Not dmg.
1)shielded HP should be over 500k (if you would go with x2 paladins) it will raise up your survivability. 2)as we can see from screen 1 you were only 3-4 ppl at "arrow" area. on 2nd screen , only 2 ppl over there...instead to be all together and split dmg. Seems like you havn't done mehanics properly , and as a result = death.
Yes - it reduce - he is far below a cap like 31k short on it - so he is getting critted like every 3rd shot. With new module critical severity for opponents is turned on. As you see his dmg taken is critical that an may be some mechanical failure and voila - as I said - WAI
Bug Hypothermia My warlock had 383k HP and 80k Defense, (she also had >350k shielded HP), I think she shouldn't have died in this situation: The arrows were not targeted at my warlock. Sadly I did not run the combatlog.
Your crit avoidance is very low - you can see on the picture you were critically hited - WAI.
Dont blame game for your lack of stats here
Everyone else took ~60k damage, going off 50% critical severity a critical hit should deal ~90k damage, my warlock had >700k effective HP. Unless this attack benefits from significantly more Critical Severity, your suggestion makes no sense.
2)as we can see from screen 1 you were only 3-4 ppl at "arrow" area. on 2nd screen , only 2 ppl over there...instead to be all together and split dmg. Seems like you havn't done mehanics properly , and as a result = death.
As far as I know the intended amount of people to survive Hypothermia is 5 people, since at a later point 2 of them appear at the same time. And again, my warlock did not have the arrows on it.
Anyways I do believe that the damage was so high, because I may have immunity-framed the following debuff: If that's the case, is it working as intended?
Comments
We'd like to make absolutely sure that when we do make adjustments we're not overshooting so we don't have to buff anyone and then immediately nerf them. I do understand the frustration while waiting for these adjustments, however, and we absolutely appreciate your patience.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ2Z0G8P8VNR9bAzz1Y1BCgfab81nC6Iv-ZZdxO7MHDtsu2bzjN8A_NzV3qgnHjUBXEjJ1cn0YDIHta/pubhtml?gid=1302561348&single=true
something something was checked with og hunt gear and not new rings something something not bothering to recheck
---
not sure it's too relevant, but assuming the bonuses haven't changed since mod 13, looking at the Kiuno and Wrappers tabs to get a general idea of what counted as ranged or melee (not every ability was checked and you'd need to translate some abilities from the old names to new names)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zVx4NtB1dT3Cm2XpgFmMQqI1fVxc4xPn9O6Lxd34uwI/edit
Back to the discussion. I understand that you may want to have some difficult content, I like it too as it sets a target to reach. The real issue is that in NWO only the last module top content is really relevant from a reward point of, so if you make it too difficult most people will just give up. At the beginning of the game valuable content was available in all dungeons, each epic dungeon dropped pieces of BOE armor sets, first boss at CN dropped rings, last boss dropped weapons, so people could progress through the game by doing different content, suited to their skill and gear levels. Obviously those more skilled progressed faster but also others could get meaningful stuff and feel a sense of accomplishment and progress. Today you have the choice of either mindlessly grind through super-easy stuff or to do the last top-level content, with almost nothing in between.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Now, I'm not really complaining, just pointing out that with design differences like this you cannot balance for all types of content, (boss fights, trash cleaning, PvP, etc..) at the same time.
It must either not be a healer.. or its in a good place...
> Still consider it very telling that in all the times @asterdahl talked about healers in his very welcome replies, the warlock was never mentioned...
>
> It must either not be a healer.. or its in a good place...
I've heard that warlocks are doing very nicely in the trial, so I am guessing they are in a good place. At least at that end of the skill range.
You can find enemy stat ratings for a skirmish/dungeon/trial in the queue details.
For arp, acc, defense, deflect and awareness: Enemy stat Ratings + 50,000 (so in ToMM, 30,000 + 50,000 = 80,000)
For Crit Avoidance: Enemy Stat Rating + 55,000 (so in ToMM, 30,000 + 55,000 = 85,000)
For CA: Enemy Stat Rating + 100,000 (So in ToMM, 30,000 + 100,000 = 130,000)
Guild Leader: Mistaken Identity (formerly Midnight Express)
My Twitch Stream
See my Youtube Channel for guides and more
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
The reality is though WOW! This just shows me who the developer are catering to with this mod; the elite players; definitely HAMSTER over your average player with this type of change.
The elite players will come on here and defend this update stating that the average player now has access to the rings. LMAO, yeah but at what price as we all know the trial is not going to be beaten by many players like prior trials.
Make the rings as a 100% random pull from the new ME; this way it is more accessible to all players and not just the elitist in this game.
This is definitely DWF all over again. Seriously cryptic developers, go to DCUO forms and look up DWF and complaints on that from the community. You can learn from another company mistakes, but I don't think you will.
Even with that said class balancing is a hard as it typically happens at a sparring target. At that you used capture data but are you capturing how a player runs through their rotation, what gear/enchantment the player is using, etc... than using that to help track where things are?
Again, I'm going back to DCUO. They balanced all classes at a sparring target using their so called rotations etc.. the reality was burst type classes did more damage than DoT classes in actual game content. They eventually removed the simplicity and went back to an open game giving player more options as they found out that they cannot truly balance class do to factors and simply now try to get them close enough but not balance.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
There is already WAY to much valuable loot in Mindnumbing, 0 effort MEs that require nothing of the player except time. If this is where all the valuable loot should come from they can outright remove dungeons from the game, cause whats the point then?
I strongly disagree with the Idea that the only factor in what loot u get during your playtime is RNG, that turns this game into a slot machine and nothing else.
My warlock had 383k HP and 80k Defense, (she also had >350k shielded HP), I think she shouldn't have died in this situation:
The arrows were not targeted at my warlock. Sadly I did not run the combatlog.
Dont blame game for your lack of stats here
1)shielded HP should be over 500k (if you would go with x2 paladins) it will raise up your survivability.
2)as we can see from screen 1 you were only 3-4 ppl at "arrow" area. on 2nd screen , only 2 ppl over there...instead to be all together and split dmg. Seems like you havn't done mehanics properly , and as a result = death.
And again, my warlock did not have the arrows on it.
Anyways I do believe that the damage was so high, because I may have immunity-framed the following debuff:
If that's the case, is it working as intended?
Here is the timestamp of viral's stream:
https://twitch.tv/videos/457875023?t=44m00s
@asterdahl could you please clarify?