OFFICIAL M17: Tower of the Mad Mage Feedback

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  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Yes, this is finally a dungeon that is fun and challenging to play. I think maybe it will need to be tuned down a SMALL amount (maybe 10-15%, that is it). I am worried it will be much harder when the revive sickness bug is fixed.... but we will see then.

    Seriously though, I have NEVER been this excited for an upcoming mod. This shows a lot of promise, and is really motivating me to get my char back into tip-top DPS shape like I used to be when I was really active, instead of just playing casually like I have been recently.

    I think that a lot of players will complain that it is too hard, and I just hope that this doesn't force the team to make the dungeon easier. As a software engineer myself, I know that sometimes pushback from customers can put a lot of pressure to change things, but please, please, PLEASE do not nerf this trial into oblivion. This is finally fun, finally challenging


    I'm glad to hear you're excited about the module thanks to the trial! We're currently not planning to nerf the trial, and in fact, since this post was made, we've been continuing to make changes to the trial. Mostly fixing some bugs that allowed certain mechanics to be circumvented, but also polishing up Halaster's rotation, particularly in some of his later phases that should make them even more mechanically challenging.

    The Tower is certainly one of the most challenging pieces of content we've ever added to Neverwinter, and this is definitely a bit of an experiment on our part. With any experiment, we're not certain what the outcome will be. We hope you enjoy the content, and that you let us know! If so, we'd like to continue building this type of trial in the future.

    Regardless, there are two things I'd like to clarify—I address these points in a blog that should be hitting sometime next week, but for those of you who are here, I'd like to address them early.

    First, while we are experimenting with this new challenge level for trials, we are not planning to increase the difficulty of dungeons significantly. Moving forward we'd like to have dungeons be at about the level of mechanical complexity and group coordination requirement that they are at. That said, the item level requirement of new dungeons will of course, continue to be higher; but we'd like to offer trials as the content that is very challenging, with dungeons being middle of the road, and skirmishes representing the easier content.

    Second, we are re-examining the criteria for content being placed in the random queues. With the launch of Module 17, the Tower of the Mad Mage will not be in any random queue. We'll be holding off on adding it until the item level cap and average item level of endgame players is high enough that the encounter is significantly easier than it will be at launch and a fairly high completion rate can be achieved with a random queue party.

  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    > @lordaeolos said:
    > 1. The rewards are way too low considering the Trial difficulty.
    > 2. The rings should be ME rewards, not trial rewards, the rings are for the most part not going to be pursued by people that can complete the trial, and the plethora of rings means that the odds of getting a ring you might want are so low that most people won't waste time grinding for them.
    > 3. The vast majority of the player community will never be able to finish this trial with it's current difficulty.
    >
    > Let's be honest here, this trial is aimed at the top 1% of players in this game, and for us this is going to be a fun challenge the first few weeks of release (after that, been there done that), for the rest of the community this trial will be a curse, and a point of further contention dividing the have's from the have-not's. I predict that this trial WILL cause more people to leave the game, than people it draws back. People play for content, and only stay to grind when there are things that they feel are worth grinding for.
    >
    > What is more important: making a couple dozen influential people feel challenged? or retaining ten's of thousands of players?

    There are alrdy way to many Rewards in the MEs. This is Dungeons and dragons and not MEs and Nothing.

    If they would want to make the Rings easier to aquire, put the rank 1-3 into Lomm and rank 4 and 5 into the Trial.

    Id also like to see the best Companion gear drop in the trial, MEs are extremly easy and even more borring, and also depend only on RNG and not on the effort u put into.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer


    Honestly, this is the most fun thing I have played in neverwinter in a LONG time. It's finally something that requires my full attention, is challenging, interesting, and can't be facerolled mindlessly.

    I still think that maybe it is a *touch* hard, especially considering that the res sickness bug is what is making it playable at the moment. I'm wondering if perhaps when that bug is fixed, minor adjustments to difficulty will need to be made here.

    Additionally, I had a potential suggestion regarding how to treat the different phases. I think that maybe a tiered reward system would be nice, so that players who maybe can't complete all 4 phases, but only the first one or two phases, get a reward. Essentially like copper, silver, gold system we have in place now for other content. I think that beating the first phase alone is still not trivial, my guild was not able to get that consistently until tonight, and that was only achievable once all ten players were in discord, and the tanks figured out how to consistently manage the stacks so that neither one of them would die from the big blue balls of killing. So, groups that kill phase 1 will at least get some rewards (not as good of course), and not feel like they are being shafted by this raid, and groups who can kill all 4 phases will get the best loot, as the sure deserve for beating this amazingly fun and difficult content

    A bug I noticed: Our tank got stuck on some books somehow while taking one of the big blue balls. He had to use /unstuck to be able to move again.

    Also, I want to give a shoutout to Lassor - I have never seen a dev so engaged with the users testing the content, and he really seems to care about how this content is being perceived, and how players are interacting with it. Whenever we are running it, he is teleporting in, observing, and joking around with us the whole time. He also seems to be more in touch with what the playerbase wants than any of the other devs I have seen in a while. So thank you Lassor, this trial is amazing so far and it's pretty obvious that you're one of the main reasons for that!

    Glad you're enjoying it! In regards to your point about tiered rewards—this isn't something we're planning to offer at the moment. Content of this challenge level where it will take a serious amount of time for a group to learn the mechanics, learn to work together in order to win, it's something we haven't added to Neverwinter before.

    That said, we have tried to structure the rewards around this. We're offering the best weapons currently in the game. (I know some have pointed out the CTA weapons are quite good even with an inferior item level, and we're currently looking to make adjustments to ensure the Lionheart weapons are superior.) Weapons will always drop at the end of the run that can be free rolled, and if you can't get your weapons to drop, you'll get tokens after the run you can spend on weapons.

    We've also included a unique mount skin and vanity pet to spend large amounts of tokens on, so if you end up helping your friends out with the trial, you can at least do something eventually with all the earned tokens.

    This sort of content isn't something that's meant to be farmed casually for profit, but a challenge to overcome for new equipment. We won't be including it in the random queues for some time.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Please keep this at the level where players like Sharp find it challenging and interesting.

    But, the key is the rewards.

    The rewards for hard content have to be appropriate for the effort required to get them, and I don’t have a problem with the rewards offered for ToMM. I just hope they remain relevant for the next 12 months.

    Then the difficulty will be worth mastering, not just for the sake of it.

    We plan for the Lionheart weapons to remain best in slot for the foreseeable future. While we will certainly eventually be offering other weapons at their item level, we plan to ensure Lionheart remain superior until such time as a new challenge is added with comparable difficulty with new excellent equipment to earn.
  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    > @asterdahl said:
    > Honestly, this is the most fun thing I have played in neverwinter in a LONG time. It's finally something that requires my full attention, is challenging, interesting, and can't be facerolled mindlessly.
    >
    > I still think that maybe it is a *touch* hard, especially considering that the res sickness bug is what is making it playable at the moment. I'm wondering if perhaps when that bug is fixed, minor adjustments to difficulty will need to be made here.
    >
    > Additionally, I had a potential suggestion regarding how to treat the different phases. I think that maybe a tiered reward system would be nice, so that players who maybe can't complete all 4 phases, but only the first one or two phases, get a reward. Essentially like copper, silver, gold system we have in place now for other content. I think that beating the first phase alone is still not trivial, my guild was not able to get that consistently until tonight, and that was only achievable once all ten players were in discord, and the tanks figured out how to consistently manage the stacks so that neither one of them would die from the big blue balls of killing. So, groups that kill phase 1 will at least get some rewards (not as good of course), and not feel like they are being shafted by this raid, and groups who can kill all 4 phases will get the best loot, as the sure deserve for beating this amazingly fun and difficult content
    >
    > A bug I noticed: Our tank got stuck on some books somehow while taking one of the big blue balls. He had to use /unstuck to be able to move again.
    >
    > Also, I want to give a shoutout to Lassor - I have never seen a dev so engaged with the users testing the content, and he really seems to care about how this content is being perceived, and how players are interacting with it. Whenever we are running it, he is teleporting in, observing, and joking around with us the whole time. He also seems to be more in touch with what the playerbase wants than any of the other devs I have seen in a while. So thank you Lassor, this trial is amazing so far and it's pretty obvious that you're one of the main reasons for that!
    >
    > Glad you're enjoying it! In regards to your point about tiered rewards—this isn't something we're planning to offer at the moment. Content of this challenge level where it will take a serious amount of time for a group to learn the mechanics, learn to work together in order to win, it's something we haven't added to Neverwinter before.
    >
    > That said, we have tried to structure the rewards around this. We're offering the best weapons currently in the game. (I know some have pointed out the CTA weapons are quite good even with an inferior item level, and we're currently looking to make adjustments to ensure the Lionheart weapons are superior.) Weapons will always drop at the end of the run that can be free rolled, and if you can't get your weapons to drop, you'll get tokens after the run you can spend on weapons.
    >
    > We've also included a unique mount skin and vanity pet to spend large amounts of tokens on, so if you end up helping your friends out with the trial, you can at least do something eventually with all the earned tokens.
    >
    > This sort of content isn't something that's meant to be farmed casually for profit, but a challenge to overcome for new equipment. We won't be including it in the random queues for some time.

    It would be so cool if the rollable weapondrop would be unbound!! Can u pls comment on if it is, and if not, what the thought process behind that is. Thank u :)
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    For those with general concerns about this content not being for them because they can't currently reach the item level required, or it may be too difficult to complete. We hear you, and this is definitely an experiment. Our team is only made up of so many developers, so there's only so much content we can introduce at once. That being said, we of course do want to introduce content for players of varied skill and item levels.

    This module will also feature new master expeditions and new rewards there as well. Also, while you may not be able to challenge Halaster immediately, we plan for the Lionheart weapons to remain best in slot for quite some time. And as time passes, and other modules introduce more equipment in other slots, the trial should become easier to overcome. That said we'll be watching the stats closely, and may make adjustments based on how the trial is received.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    edited July 2019

    Bug: Sometimes during the sunfall phase you die immediately without the phase finishing. As you can see in the video and pictures below, no damage occurs and the player instantly dies.
    https://clips.twitch.tv/BovineAuspiciousCardPanicVis


    This should be fixed now, sorry about that! I know how long and strenuous it can be to get to that phase, so I'd like to apologize personally for the inconvenience. We really appreciate all of your hard work testing the trial.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    I think Sunfall should not critically hit. Having 4-5 important party members critically hit is an automatic failure and there is nothing a party can do about it.

    Technically you could cap your critical avoidance! That being said, we have adjusted the damage over time component of sunfall to start a bit lower. I may consider making further adjustments, so please continue sending your feedback.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    hustin1 said:

    ToNG came out before scaling. That changes everything, now. You won't be able to rely on power creep to carry you through it a mod or two from now, as with ToNG. Wherever the devs set the arbitrary IL cap will determine how difficult it is pretty much for all time.

    I don't think the devs will listen, but they should release this as nToMM and eToMM.

    I understand your concern, but the item level cap on a queue is not the same as the item level required to enter. When scaling is enforced on the Tower of the Mad Mage (in quite a long while from now) we plan to scale everyone down to an item level where the Tower can have a reasonably high completion rate with a public group. If at that time, you want to experience something closer to the original difficulty, you will of course be able to select minimum item level scaling with a premade group.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    The ToMM trial to me is DCUO Darkside War Factory (DWF) all over again. This trial is very similar to how challenging the content is and how it will split the community. I honestly love a real challenge in games like this and love having the game push my limits, but the reality is this is a pay to advance game and many players outside of the few that consider themselves elite don't have the patience or time to try this trial do to the high probability of failure.

    I saw many of my friends quit DCUO because of how hard DWF was and I loved that raid. I loved it for the challenge and my sick desire to want it harder I played the elite, yeah DCUO did the crazy thing, and made a harder version of the same raid. I wanted the elite raid of that content to be harder for the elite player and I wanted the normal to be easier for the average player.

    DCUO developers listened to their elite players and made the elite content easier and left the standard raid as is.

    NWO can do whatever they want; they can listen to the elite players here and slowly see a decline in end game players giving up do to not having the IL or friends/alliance to get through this trial.

    I agree that there should be two version of this trial. One normal and the other being master. With that said I believe normal should require 5-10K more stats than LoMM currently does and it should be fairly easier than the master/elite ToMM trial.

    I would like the master ToMM to have a new weapon set but only if it gets even more difficult than what is currently on preview. I would like the monster stats to be bumped up by another 20K, health increased by 150-200%, and increase their base damage by 50%. The new weapon set would have a max IL of 1K and would have the same bonus that the tyrant set has but the instead of hunts making the weapon more effective it would be whenever the player is within the Undermountain area.

    Those are just my thoughts on how to fix this trial and give it to the masses and to the true elite players.

  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    cust0mx said:

    We need more things happening in phase 1, the change of pace between phase 1 and 3 is too big. Not much to do in phase 1 its kinda boring tbh.
    Suggestion: inscrease the rate of tornado/eruption ect

    The portal are just a little annoying and can be put to a better use.

    Suggestion: add more portals or/and make them more punishing.
    Type of mechanics you could do is having 3 different colors for portals (purple white and red to match the elemental theme) if you touch one portal you get debuffed or a DoT, you need to find the same type of portal again to remove the debuff (if you enter through a white portal you need to come out of a red or purple one so its not too easy to go back inside)

    The +/- links are not punishing enough in phase 1
    , please add some spikes to the edge of the room that removes at least 50% of you HP if you touch them. So ppl have more incentive to do the mechanic the right way instead of just spreading no matter what. This will push players to be better for phase 3 when you would fall off the platform is you fail.


    Not 100% sure if its intended, but the lava is one shoting non tank class in phase 3 (600k base damage), i wanted to break my chain so i put a foot into the magna and i kept on being one shoted by the damage after scrolling, maybe tune it down so we can at least survive 1 or 2sec inside

    Thanks for the feedback! In terms of phase 1, it's definitely intended to be a warm-up phase, to introduce the mechanics in a safer environment and give you a chance to practice with some of them when there won't necessarily be a serious punishment for failure (magnetic attraction for instance.) In addition, the mechanics unique to phase 1: fowl play, the portals, etc. are meant to be more fun than challenging and to give Halaster more character, at the start of the fight he is more aloof, and things get serious starting with phase 2. Significant portions of voice acted lines were not put into earlier versions of the fight, and should now be appearing as we close in on launch.

    That said I do understand the feedback that when you're working on learning phase 3, phase 1 can feel like a slog, so we will consider making adjustments such as reduced health if necessary.

    In regards to the magma, I'll be taking a look at the damage, that said, please note that it is not necessary to step into the lava to break your searing chains. The break distance is based on whether or not searing chains was cast during a time when the lava ring is up or not. So when the searing chains are cast while the lava is present, you can break it by both being close to the lava on opposite sides of the arena. Even if the damage values are decreased slightly, they'll still be high enough to be lethal within 2-3 ticks. This was always the intent, but I do apologize that in earlier versions the damage was so low that people became used to walking into the lava as a tactic.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    But as evidenced by the healing nerfs in the last preview patch, the NW devs (designers), under the counsel of preview-BiS players like Sharpedge here, are willing to effect the whole rest of the game for the sake of just this “0.1% content.” That makes us fear what else might be coming, for one, and that’s probably the core of much of the backlash to it.

    I understand the speculation that the healing nerfs were in direct reaction to feedback from the trial, but actually the adjustments to healing were something we have been discussing since Module 16 launched and we got a chance to see how healers performed on live.

    In reality we may actually lower some of the damage in the trial to compensate for the changes. Healing is very strong right now on live, healers very, very rarely run out of resources even in dire situations. Early builds of M16 had much more strenuous resource consumption, and we made a lot of changes without making enough changes elsewhere to compensate.

    We don't want to make the game significantly harder, but we do want healers to be in danger of running out of resources if the group is really getting hit by a lot of unnecessary damage or poorly geared. On top of this, we felt that Oathkeeper in particular was in slightly too strong of a position due to the strength of their shields. However, their shields are also the mechanic that makes them feel the most unique when compared with other healers. So while the magnitude adjustments may seem steep, we wanted to adjust the magnitude instead of removing or reducing the unique nature of their spells.

    We will continue to watch how healing performance is on preview, there may be reversals on some of those adjustments or further adjustments leading up to launch, and of course, post launch and in modules down the road, we'll keep making adjustments.

    That said, I do hope everyone will take a close look at the patch notes, a few spells actually were improved, and the relationship between some spells has changed, so you may want to consider changing up your heals depending on the situation.
  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    asterdahl said:

    hustin1 said:

    ToNG came out before scaling. That changes everything, now. You won't be able to rely on power creep to carry you through it a mod or two from now, as with ToNG. Wherever the devs set the arbitrary IL cap will determine how difficult it is pretty much for all time.

    I don't think the devs will listen, but they should release this as nToMM and eToMM.

    I understand your concern, but the item level cap on a queue is not the same as the item level required to enter. When scaling is enforced on the Tower of the Mad Mage (in quite a long while from now) we plan to scale everyone down to an item level where the Tower can have a reasonably high completion rate with a public group. If at that time, you want to experience something closer to the original difficulty, you will of course be able to select minimum item level scaling with a premade group.
    that doesn't negate the idea of a e trial vs n trial and e dungeon vs n dungeon. I really would like to see this. you're releasing a module that will only appeal to the bis of the bis. and those that aren't bis are already bored and leaving for other games, if you want to not lose players you need to release content that everyone can enjoy. i like the idea of having challenging content but having a normal dungeon that has mechanics that are similar but not as punishing, is a good way for people to learn without being ridiculous.

    Codg really needed a n version with a camp fire. those that didn't get a chance to learn the mechanics when it first dropped never will get a chance to learn mechanics because it's unforgiving. we had n and e versions for a number of mods and they worked. they made everyone happy. why not continue with this old tradition that got left behind at some point.

    lomm as it stands is pretty easy and has HAMSTER rewards. there could easily be a more punishing version with good rewards.

    we have a lack of things to grind for to keep people inthe game. it would have been nice to see gear that is actually worth having that only drops from a difficult dungeon. but its ALSO really good to have the dungeon at it's current difficulty level so newer players can also enjoy it. having some more rare drops that are salable or tradable like rare good gear/ weapons (ie watcher) would also be good for the economy which is in a sad place.
  • arazith07
    arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,445 Arc User
    N demo is just an AD farm, nMSVA was just a place to get the lower level stones for restoring the weapon and has no use now, nToMM would just be another place with items that most would care less about anyways (they will likely keep +4/5 rings, artifacts, shirt/pants and ofc the weapons and weapon currency in the true trial), and would waste resources needed to properly tune an easy version.

    Also this module does have stuff for everyone, new companion gear, new shirt/pants, new skins to grind for, new iL 1000 armors. It's not just the trial/pvp/appearance system.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    asterdahl said:

    hustin1 said:

    ToNG came out before scaling. That changes everything, now. You won't be able to rely on power creep to carry you through it a mod or two from now, as with ToNG. Wherever the devs set the arbitrary IL cap will determine how difficult it is pretty much for all time.

    I don't think the devs will listen, but they should release this as nToMM and eToMM.

    I understand your concern, but the item level cap on a queue is not the same as the item level required to enter. When scaling is enforced on the Tower of the Mad Mage (in quite a long while from now) we plan to scale everyone down to an item level where the Tower can have a reasonably high completion rate with a public group. If at that time, you want to experience something closer to the original difficulty, you will of course be able to select minimum item level scaling with a premade group.
    that doesn't negate the idea of a e trial vs n trial and e dungeon vs n dungeon. I really would like to see this. you're releasing a module that will only appeal to the bis of the bis. and those that aren't bis are already bored and leaving for other games, if you want to not lose players you need to release content that everyone can enjoy. i like the idea of having challenging content but having a normal dungeon that has mechanics that are similar but not as punishing is a good way for people to learn without being ridiculous. Codg really needed a n version with a camp fire. those that didn't get a chance to learn the mechanics when it first dropped never will get a chance to learn mechanics because it's unforgiving. we had n and e versions for a number of mods and they worked. they made everyone happy. why not continue with this old tradition that got left behind at some point. lomm as it stands is pretty easy and has HAMSTER rewards. there could easily be a more punishing version with good rewards. we have a lack of things to grind for to keep people inthe game. it would have been nice to see gear that is actually worth having that only drops from a difficult dungeon. but its ALSO really good to have the dungeon at it's current difficulty level so newer players can also enjoy it.
    Although the Tower of the Mad Mage is the only queued content releasing with Module 17, there is additional content releasing with the module, and that other content does not require nearly as high an item level or skill level. Ultimately, introducing an master and standard version of a piece of content is not a 0 cost proposition.

    What I mean by that is, we don't just flip a switch and make a normal mode of content this challenging, time would have to be spent making adjustments beyond simple numerical modifications, and then that version would have to be playtested, fitted with rewards, etc. In addition, a few modules down the road, having the two difficulties of the content when there is fairly lenient scaling in place puts the content in an awkward position. Sometimes the two difficulties feel very similar. Mechanically some of our older master-vs-non-master trials feel significantly different thanks to the non-master allowing infinite respawning, but this is something we would like to stay away from in all but the easiest content moving forward.

    Development time spent making that alternate version would directly be taken away from making other content, like new dungeons for coming modules which we can get started on earlier, and will be available for a wider range of skills. Currently that's where we are investing our time. However, as I mentioned, this is an experiment, so it's possible based on the reception now and over the coming months, that we will make adjustments to how we handle the next trial. So please continue to send your feedback and let us know how you feel once the trial's been on live for a while.
  • agilesto
    agilesto Member Posts: 516 Arc User
    asterdahl said:


    Although the Tower of the Mad Mage is the only queued content releasing with Module 17, there is additional content releasing with the module, and that other content does not require nearly as high an item level or skill level.

    Don't want to sound mean, but TOMM being restricted to a microscopic part of the community and the PVP changes being restricted to another microscopic part of the community that actually do PVP, the immense majority of players "only" have Stardock (again I understand the ressources/cost/etc not being mean).
    The Stardock part is new expeditions. We've been doing expeditions for 3 months already, and we'll have 3 other months with new expeditions.

    Expeditions are boring. Passed the surprise and enjoyment, once you have your Alabaster and few gear pieces from the questgiver, you only do it for Watcher stuff (again, microscopic part of the community) or Zok boxes (for everyone).
    The droprate of any artifact on Zok boxes is atrocious, so that people will continue to farm it.
    But 6 months to farm expeditions is not cool. Really not interesting at all. So he's kinda right, TOMM and PVP are for the 1% and fashion as a QoL is not playable content. That leaves expeditions only and I would not really consider that an extremely positive thing.
  • arazith07
    arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,445 Arc User
    agilesto said:

    asterdahl said:


    Although the Tower of the Mad Mage is the only queued content releasing with Module 17, there is additional content releasing with the module, and that other content does not require nearly as high an item level or skill level.

    Don't want to sound mean, but TOMM being restricted to a microscopic part of the community and the PVP changes being restricted to another microscopic part of the community that actually do PVP, the immense majority of players "only" have Stardock (again I understand the ressources/cost/etc not being mean).
    The Stardock part is new expeditions. We've been doing expeditions for 3 months already, and we'll have 3 other months with new expeditions.

    Expeditions are boring. Passed the surprise and enjoyment, once you have your Alabaster and few gear pieces from the questgiver, you only do it for Watcher stuff (again, microscopic part of the community) or Zok boxes (for everyone).
    The droprate of any artifact on Zok boxes is atrocious, so that people will continue to farm it.
    But 6 months to farm expeditions is not cool. Really not interesting at all. So he's kinda right, TOMM and PVP are for the 1% and fashion as a QoL is not playable content. That leaves expeditions only and I would not really consider that an extremely positive thing.
    And doing the same dungeon over and over again isn't just as boring? Either way we are chasing gear using one part of content. The new gear added to the new expeditions will renew some interest, and will take a few months until you get want you want. It would have been nice to get more than 2 new map areas for expeditions, but I realize that can take up a lot of resources and I rather they spend that extra time on balancing, new classes, and whatever mod 18 has.
  • quickfoot#7851
    quickfoot#7851 Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    If you want Lionheart to remain BiS, increase the dmg bonus to 10% at full stamina, and reduce the buff to 0% at 0 stamina (instead of reduced damage). Just thinking out loud, but for example, if lionheart remained as is -5% to 5% buff to dmg based on stamina, and a new MW set came out w/ a party wide 2% buff, I'd take the MW weaps any day over lionheart, they are consistent, and buff allies as well. However, if I could achieve a 10% bonus w/o a negative penalty from Lionheart, as a dps I would take that over a consistent 2% and just elven enchant. My 2 cents.

    Also, I like the idea of this dungeon being really difficult, cool. But, I also agree w/ the suggestion to release a normal version of this dungeons, something most other people could do mostly for story arc purposes or just for a sense of accomplishment. Ofc, I would suggest that a normal version wouldn't drop the same rewards, but maybe just some rad, random stuff, and campaign currency if any (not tokens for the weapons etc).

  • carloswartune#5709
    carloswartune#5709 Member Posts: 243 Arc User

    If you want Lionheart to remain BiS, increase the dmg bonus to 10% at full stamina, and reduce the buff to 0% at 0 stamina (instead of reduced damage). Just thinking out loud, but for example, if lionheart remained as is -5% to 5% buff to dmg based on stamina, and a new MW set came out w/ a party wide 2% buff, I'd take the MW weaps any day over lionheart, they are consistent, and buff allies as well. However, if I could achieve a 10% bonus w/o a negative penalty from Lionheart, as a dps I would take that over a consistent 2% and just elven enchant. My 2 cents.

    The description on preview is wrong, it doesn't reduce damage at 0 stamina.
    asterdahl said:

    viraaal said:

    As a tank main, can we have other / more reasons to run this trial? I see the rewards from the collections, and none of them really appeal to me. The new weapons have increased weapon damage, thats a pro, however the set bonus will always be down on a tank in the new trial as you will always have to shield the annihilate attacks and constant arcane blasts, so for me the weapons are not really a big deal.
    The rings also acquired from this trial are worthless too, as I can already cap every defence stat with current obtainable gear from module 16. Meaning the rings from the trial dont help me except maybe allow me to get a tiny bit more offensive stats, which once again for a tank are meaningless.
    I came back to this game in module 17 to play this new trial, however looking at what it gives me as a player, after beating it once, theres no real reward that will benefit my character. I dont know if this is because I currently find the trial on preview trivial, and thus im looking for things to complain about, but I dont know how much I want to be playing it, and thats a real shame, as there is a lot of potential within this trial.

    The set bonus for the Lionheart weapons was actually a typo, the effect that occurs when your stamina is empty is -5% damage taken, not dealt. I'd like to apologize for the confusion in regards to this effect. To clarify, those effects are both on a ramp, so at 100% stamina you have +5% damage dealt, at 0% stamina, you have -5% damage taken. At 50% stamina you have +2.5% damage dealt and -2.5% damage taken.
  • quickfoot#7851
    quickfoot#7851 Member Posts: 488 Arc User

    If you want Lionheart to remain BiS, increase the dmg bonus to 10% at full stamina, and reduce the buff to 0% at 0 stamina (instead of reduced damage). Just thinking out loud, but for example, if lionheart remained as is -5% to 5% buff to dmg based on stamina, and a new MW set came out w/ a party wide 2% buff, I'd take the MW weaps any day over lionheart, they are consistent, and buff allies as well. However, if I could achieve a 10% bonus w/o a negative penalty from Lionheart, as a dps I would take that over a consistent 2% and just elven enchant. My 2 cents.

    The description on preview is wrong, it doesn't reduce damage at 0 stamina.
    asterdahl said:

    viraaal said:

    As a tank main, can we have other / more reasons to run this trial? I see the rewards from the collections, and none of them really appeal to me. The new weapons have increased weapon damage, thats a pro, however the set bonus will always be down on a tank in the new trial as you will always have to shield the annihilate attacks and constant arcane blasts, so for me the weapons are not really a big deal.
    The rings also acquired from this trial are worthless too, as I can already cap every defence stat with current obtainable gear from module 16. Meaning the rings from the trial dont help me except maybe allow me to get a tiny bit more offensive stats, which once again for a tank are meaningless.
    I came back to this game in module 17 to play this new trial, however looking at what it gives me as a player, after beating it once, theres no real reward that will benefit my character. I dont know if this is because I currently find the trial on preview trivial, and thus im looking for things to complain about, but I dont know how much I want to be playing it, and thats a real shame, as there is a lot of potential within this trial.

    The set bonus for the Lionheart weapons was actually a typo, the effect that occurs when your stamina is empty is -5% damage taken, not dealt. I'd like to apologize for the confusion in regards to this effect. To clarify, those effects are both on a ramp, so at 100% stamina you have +5% damage dealt, at 0% stamina, you have -5% damage taken. At 50% stamina you have +2.5% damage dealt and -2.5% damage taken.
    Thanks, I missed that post. Still, increase the edges to 10% for both damage dealt and reduced damage taken w/ 5% for each at 50% stamina. I'm pretty sure that would be BiS for a long time, even if new MW weaps came out. Considering that the MW buff stacks w/ itself, I would still prefer that (2% for dps, 2% for heals, 2% for tank for everyone) over lionheart as is even w/ the new info about the typo.

  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    asterdahl said:

    asterdahl said:

    hustin1 said:

    ToNG came out before scaling. That changes everything, now. You won't be able to rely on power creep to carry you through it a mod or two from now, as with ToNG. Wherever the devs set the arbitrary IL cap will determine how difficult it is pretty much for all time.

    I don't think the devs will listen, but they should release this as nToMM and eToMM.

    I understand your concern, but the item level cap on a queue is not the same as the item level required to enter. When scaling is enforced on the Tower of the Mad Mage (in quite a long while from now) we plan to scale everyone down to an item level where the Tower can have a reasonably high completion rate with a public group. If at that time, you want to experience something closer to the original difficulty, you will of course be able to select minimum item level scaling with a premade group.
    that doesn't negate the idea of a e trial vs n trial and e dungeon vs n dungeon. I really would like to see this. you're releasing a module that will only appeal to the bis of the bis. and those that aren't bis are already bored and leaving for other games, if you want to not lose players you need to release content that everyone can enjoy. i like the idea of having challenging content but having a normal dungeon that has mechanics that are similar but not as punishing is a good way for people to learn without being ridiculous. Codg really needed a n version with a camp fire. those that didn't get a chance to learn the mechanics when it first dropped never will get a chance to learn mechanics because it's unforgiving. we had n and e versions for a number of mods and they worked. they made everyone happy. why not continue with this old tradition that got left behind at some point. lomm as it stands is pretty easy and has HAMSTER rewards. there could easily be a more punishing version with good rewards. we have a lack of things to grind for to keep people inthe game. it would have been nice to see gear that is actually worth having that only drops from a difficult dungeon. but its ALSO really good to have the dungeon at it's current difficulty level so newer players can also enjoy it.
    Although the Tower of the Mad Mage is the only queued content releasing with Module 17, there is additional content releasing with the module, and that other content does not require nearly as high an item level or skill level. Ultimately, introducing an master and standard version of a piece of content is not a 0 cost proposition.

    What I mean by that is, we don't just flip a switch and make a normal mode of content this challenging, time would have to be spent making adjustments beyond simple numerical modifications, and then that version would have to be playtested, fitted with rewards, etc. In addition, a few modules down the road, having the two difficulties of the content when there is fairly lenient scaling in place puts the content in an awkward position. Sometimes the two difficulties feel very similar. Mechanically some of our older master-vs-non-master trials feel significantly different thanks to the non-master allowing infinite respawning, but this is something we would like to stay away from in all but the easiest content moving forward.

    Development time spent making that alternate version would directly be taken away from making other content, like new dungeons for coming modules which we can get started on earlier, and will be available for a wider range of skills. Currently that's where we are investing our time. However, as I mentioned, this is an experiment, so it's possible based on the reception now and over the coming months, that we will make adjustments to how we handle the next trial. So please continue to send your feedback and let us know how you feel once the trial's been on live for a while.
    it may not be a zero cost opportunity but I can't believe that it would be THAT much more in time since you're already testing various difficulties and levels. at one point in the testing process just capture it for the lower tier and keep going. it certainly would gain and retain more players then trying to revive the unfixable travesty that is pvp in this game.

    I would really like to see a poll before you guys start in directions like spending time on pvp vs 2 tiered pve content and fixing bugs and see where it lands. I think it would retain many more people to the game.
  • flippy#8481
    flippy#8481 Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    random salvage equipment

    what is this strange feature
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    hustin1 said:

    asterdahl said:

    asterdahl said:

    hustin1 said:

    ToNG came out before scaling. That changes everything, now. You won't be able to rely on power creep to carry you through it a mod or two from now, as with ToNG. Wherever the devs set the arbitrary IL cap will determine how difficult it is pretty much for all time.

    I don't think the devs will listen, but they should release this as nToMM and eToMM.

    I understand your concern, but the item level cap on a queue is not the same as the item level required to enter. When scaling is enforced on the Tower of the Mad Mage (in quite a long while from now) we plan to scale everyone down to an item level where the Tower can have a reasonably high completion rate with a public group. If at that time, you want to experience something closer to the original difficulty, you will of course be able to select minimum item level scaling with a premade group.
    that doesn't negate the idea of a e trial vs n trial and e dungeon vs n dungeon. I really would like to see this. you're releasing a module that will only appeal to the bis of the bis. and those that aren't bis are already bored and leaving for other games, if you want to not lose players you need to release content that everyone can enjoy. i like the idea of having challenging content but having a normal dungeon that has mechanics that are similar but not as punishing is a good way for people to learn without being ridiculous. Codg really needed a n version with a camp fire. those that didn't get a chance to learn the mechanics when it first dropped never will get a chance to learn mechanics because it's unforgiving. we had n and e versions for a number of mods and they worked. they made everyone happy. why not continue with this old tradition that got left behind at some point. lomm as it stands is pretty easy and has HAMSTER rewards. there could easily be a more punishing version with good rewards. we have a lack of things to grind for to keep people inthe game. it would have been nice to see gear that is actually worth having that only drops from a difficult dungeon. but its ALSO really good to have the dungeon at it's current difficulty level so newer players can also enjoy it.
    Although the Tower of the Mad Mage is the only queued content releasing with Module 17, there is additional content releasing with the module, and that other content does not require nearly as high an item level or skill level. Ultimately, introducing an master and standard version of a piece of content is not a 0 cost proposition.

    What I mean by that is, we don't just flip a switch and make a normal mode of content this challenging, time would have to be spent making adjustments beyond simple numerical modifications, and then that version would have to be playtested, fitted with rewards, etc. In addition, a few modules down the road, having the two difficulties of the content when there is fairly lenient scaling in place puts the content in an awkward position. Sometimes the two difficulties feel very similar. Mechanically some of our older master-vs-non-master trials feel significantly different thanks to the non-master allowing infinite respawning, but this is something we would like to stay away from in all but the easiest content moving forward.

    Development time spent making that alternate version would directly be taken away from making other content, like new dungeons for coming modules which we can get started on earlier, and will be available for a wider range of skills. Currently that's where we are investing our time. However, as I mentioned, this is an experiment, so it's possible based on the reception now and over the coming months, that we will make adjustments to how we handle the next trial. So please continue to send your feedback and let us know how you feel once the trial's been on live for a while.
    The problem with not having a learning version is that it makes it very hard for many players to ever learn the mechanics. The stakes for success become so high that everyone wants a "sure thing". This manifests itself in private chat channels specifically for forming premades where only the most BiS are invited, for instance. It manifests in 95% of the LFG requests demanding only players who have run it before. It results in a lot of toxicity in the community as a whole as we get divided between the "invited" and the "invited-nots".

    This has been going on for quite some time. For a long time after ToNG came out, if you weren't part of the meta you couldn't get in a ToNG group to save your life. Same for CoDG, where it's even more critical that players have ample time to practice the mechanics. Many of these mechanics require not only knowledge but **practice**, and the effect of having no ability to learn the mechanics with lower stakes means many players never get that chance.
    I understand your concerns. However, one issue about having a "normal" difficulty version of mechanically difficult content to "teach" mechanics is that if the difficulty is not significantly lower, you run into the same issues where people are failing the mechanics and groups don't want to deal with wipes and stop inviting new players. If it is significantly lower, you run the very serious risk of people not actually learning the mechanics at all, because they can be ignored or other players can carry them through the mechanic.

    If a mechanic isn't lethal or isn't in danger of draining the healer's resources to the point that the group wipes, the mechanic will be ignored in favor of DPS. Of course, it's possible for hyper-motivated players playing these more casual encounters to try to use them as a chance to practice with low stakes of their own volition, but how many fall into that category is a question. The answer is usually a very small number.

    That's not to say that this isn't a problem we'd like to work to solve. Halaster builds upon a lot of mechanics that have been introduced in previous boss encounters. He may throw some new combinations at you, but for the most part its things you have already seen in other content, just flashier and with higher stakes. The reason I point this out is that we've been trying to build up the general library of mechanics that everyone is familiar with since I took over boss encounter design with Fangbreaker Island.

    It's been gradual, and I think the overall shift has been towards the playerbase handling mechanics better. Of course, before Module 16, there were so many tools that could be used to circumvent the need to deal with mechanics, so that has always been a major setback. From that perspective, Module 16 was a big step forward. But we're still building.

    But the issue you are describing of learning groups vs. farm groups is something that any game with difficult, group-oriented content struggles with. There are a number of ways it can be approached, and we have tried some things. The new player bonus in random queues for instance, incentivizes helping new players. Of course, if that incentive is large enough for players to bother teaching someone how to do something as difficult as this trial, it's likely to be so big that there's a motivation to seek out players who may not have even wanted to do the content, or maybe even roll up new characters.

    Phew! I think I rambled a bit there, so I do apologize. Putting in better tools for players to "teach" themselves, and others, as well as to learn is definitely something on our minds now that we've finally solved some of the issues with mechanics being something that can be easily ignored. I don't have anything to announce right now on that front to coincide with this trial, but we'd like to first see how something of this difficulty is received by the community. I can't stress enough that, if you're really enjoying the content, please let us know!
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    asterdahl said:

    asterdahl said:

    hustin1 said:

    ToNG came out before scaling. That changes everything, now. You won't be able to rely on power creep to carry you through it a mod or two from now, as with ToNG. Wherever the devs set the arbitrary IL cap will determine how difficult it is pretty much for all time.

    I don't think the devs will listen, but they should release this as nToMM and eToMM.

    I understand your concern, but the item level cap on a queue is not the same as the item level required to enter. When scaling is enforced on the Tower of the Mad Mage (in quite a long while from now) we plan to scale everyone down to an item level where the Tower can have a reasonably high completion rate with a public group. If at that time, you want to experience something closer to the original difficulty, you will of course be able to select minimum item level scaling with a premade group.
    that doesn't negate the idea of a e trial vs n trial and e dungeon vs n dungeon. I really would like to see this. you're releasing a module that will only appeal to the bis of the bis. and those that aren't bis are already bored and leaving for other games, if you want to not lose players you need to release content that everyone can enjoy. i like the idea of having challenging content but having a normal dungeon that has mechanics that are similar but not as punishing is a good way for people to learn without being ridiculous. Codg really needed a n version with a camp fire. those that didn't get a chance to learn the mechanics when it first dropped never will get a chance to learn mechanics because it's unforgiving. we had n and e versions for a number of mods and they worked. they made everyone happy. why not continue with this old tradition that got left behind at some point. lomm as it stands is pretty easy and has HAMSTER rewards. there could easily be a more punishing version with good rewards. we have a lack of things to grind for to keep people inthe game. it would have been nice to see gear that is actually worth having that only drops from a difficult dungeon. but its ALSO really good to have the dungeon at it's current difficulty level so newer players can also enjoy it.
    Although the Tower of the Mad Mage is the only queued content releasing with Module 17, there is additional content releasing with the module, and that other content does not require nearly as high an item level or skill level. Ultimately, introducing an master and standard version of a piece of content is not a 0 cost proposition.

    What I mean by that is, we don't just flip a switch and make a normal mode of content this challenging, time would have to be spent making adjustments beyond simple numerical modifications, and then that version would have to be playtested, fitted with rewards, etc. In addition, a few modules down the road, having the two difficulties of the content when there is fairly lenient scaling in place puts the content in an awkward position. Sometimes the two difficulties feel very similar. Mechanically some of our older master-vs-non-master trials feel significantly different thanks to the non-master allowing infinite respawning, but this is something we would like to stay away from in all but the easiest content moving forward.

    Development time spent making that alternate version would directly be taken away from making other content, like new dungeons for coming modules which we can get started on earlier, and will be available for a wider range of skills. Currently that's where we are investing our time. However, as I mentioned, this is an experiment, so it's possible based on the reception now and over the coming months, that we will make adjustments to how we handle the next trial. So please continue to send your feedback and let us know how you feel once the trial's been on live for a while.
    it may not be a zero cost opportunity but I can't believe that it would be THAT much more in time since you're already testing various difficulties and levels. at one point in the testing process just capture it for the lower tier and keep going. it certainly would gain and retain more players then trying to revive the unfixable travesty that is pvp in this game.

    I would really like to see a poll before you guys start in directions like spending time on pvp vs 2 tiered pve content and fixing bugs and see where it lands. I think it would retain many more people to the game.
    I would like to stress something here: the amount of development time spent on this trial vs. the PvP additions and changes is apples and oranges. Significantly more man-months of work went into the trial from significantly more departments. There's also a question of expertise. I am currently the only designer on the team with experience building trials. I have been training more and more of our team on building boss encounters, the Lair of the Mad Mage was actually the first dungeon in nearly 3 and a half years where I did not build all or some of the boss fights, instead acting only in an advisory role.

    In short: we could not have cut the PvP adjustments and made a second difficulty of the trial. There is actually a tremendous amount of internal testing we do, so the increase in testing would be non-trivial. And again, when we offer two difficulties of something, it's not a simple numerical adjustment. We also need to support those different modes with different rewards.

    I do understand your point, and I do promise that we always consider whether to offer multiple difficulties, and based on reception, we may next time. It's not something we can do now, but I do hear you. But I do want to make sure you know that we could not have diverted the resources from PvP adjustments to the trial.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    edited July 2019


    what is this strange feature

    To clarify what I meant by "random salvage equipment," I am simply referring to the guaranteed random armor dropping from the final chests. As there is no specifically unique new equipment that drops from the trial chests, presumably anyone capable of running the trial will largely be relegating that equipment to salvage, or for alts.
  • poisd2strike#7598
    poisd2strike#7598 Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Loot: @asterdahl
    I get that you do not want the weapons to be sold on the auction house, but I feel that at the very least, all the rings up to +4 should be sell able on the auction house with +5 remaining the illusive, hard to get item that is farmed for. This is good for multiple reasons:

    1) AD sink. Selling +4 rings drains 10% of their sale value from the auction house.
    2) Incentive to continue running the trial for a long period of time. There are very few people who will be able to initially complete the trial. To my knowledge, on preview, my group is the only one which is currently successful at that. Out of that list, there are even fewer who would continue to farm for the +5 rings. Giving us something to do with the excess rings we don't want is some form of incentive.
    3) Getting a high ranking ring of a type you do not need, which is good for someone else is frustrating. There is a great video by the developers of path of exile on trade and 1 of the things they comment on is that having a super rare and hard to get item is cool, but part of the bragging rights of having the item comes from the ability to trade it.
    4) Incentive to players who have not already unlocked it, to work towards unlocking it as an alternative way of making currency.
    5) This isn't something that is going to be, "on farm" for a while. Groups will be trying it and failing it for a long time and being able to complete it, proves that you don't "need" the drops anyhow.
    6) Once people have their weapons, there is little incentive to keep running it if it is hard to find people who want to run it. The rings would keep people running it and incentivize them to teach new players how to do the dungeon as they won't always have all the people online they need, instead of just quitting running it entirely.

    If you are unwilling to do that, in my opinion then no ring lower than +4 should drop and +1, +2 and +3 should be removed from the drop table. Having rings that serve no purpose to you drop which are bound or have no value is quite frankly insulting, considering the amount of effort and coordination it takes to be able to complete this trial.

    We had actually been discussing what to do with these rings internally. Those rings were actually originally made for a totally different piece of more casual content that you'd be able to do much more easily and they were meant to be a reason to keep coming back. That being said, we ended up moving some rewards around and these got moved onto the trial.

    We re-examined them and the changes we landed on for live will be the following: the 3 lower ranks of the rings will remain bind on pickup and will not be rewarded in the trial, they'll be rewarded in other more casual content. The two highest rank rings, the 990s and 1010s will drop from the chests in the trial and be bind on equip. Currently, the rings have a chance to replace the random salvage equipment, but they will now have an independent chance of dropping, which will be higher than their chance to replace salvageable gear used to be.

    In short, you'll now be able to earn the 990 and 1010 rings from the trial final chests, and sell them or wear them as you see fit.
    @asterdahl I would like some clarification please. You stated that originally the new rings were going to be a possible reward for more casual content, that players would presumably run repeatedly. The rings were then moved to ToMM. Are you saying that the 990 and 1010 versions of those rings can be traded with other players or sold on the Auction House for AD ? If so, that is a terrible idea. The cost of those rings will be exorbitant on the AH, depending upon the bonus. This is made even worse by the fact that ToMM is geared toward a ridiculously small percentage of the playerbase and those rings were originally going to be made part of content that a much larger majority of the playerbase would have been able to complete. Granted, RNG is still RNG and numerous attempts would have been needed to acquire one or more of those 990 or 1010 rings.