Maybe there was an issue with downleveling, no idea. I will retry it. Anyway 400 mag vs 1500 mag on crit is an issue noone can deny. DC 800mag vs 400mag, they did increase the Divinity cost but actually on life you can do the math about effectivity of healer same as Soulweaver is not existed outside pre-made runs. I assure you the general groupsetup will not change even though a Soulweaver at Bis is maybe viable. What we discuss here is the upper 1% and maybe a general problem with overhealing at that level if incoming healing plus outgoing reaches a critical point. If you play on a lower geared level there will be not much argument to run with 2 Soulweaver when DC OP, or even OP OP is the better solution. Critical Devine Touch barrier got not overwritten by another non crit barrier last time I checked it. So savemode might be 2 OP in the end, not sure if that's working in mod 17.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Maybe there was an issue with downleveling, no idea. I will retry it. Anyway 400 mag vs 1500 mag on crit is an issue noone can deny. DC 800mag vs 400mag, they did increase the Divinity cost but actually on life you can do the math about effectivity of healer same as Soulweaver is not existed outside pre-made runs.
I assure you the general groupsetup will not change even though a Soulweaver at Bis is maybe viable. What we discuss here is the upper 1% and maybe a general problem with overhealing at that level if incoming healing plus outgoing reaches a critical point. If you play on a lower geared level there will be not much argument to run with 2 Soulweaver when DC OP, or even OP OP is the better solution.
Warlock is likely a better support in the trial than cleric, I don't see why you should buff a support that is already performing well in the only content that matters.
I did not check the performance inside tomm, but maybe you show me a run where two Soulweaver without 60% outgoing healing do the job comparable to another combination. If you ask a professional racingdriver if he did enjoy the highway arround Paris at rushour and if you ask your mom you will allways get two difference answer. We will see in mod 17 but I pretty much doubt that things will change at all.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I did not check the performance inside tomm, but maybe you show me a run where two Soulweaver without 60% outgoing healing do the job comparable to another combination. If you ask a professional racingdriver if he did enjoy the highway arround Paris at rushour and if you ask your mom you will allways get two difference answer. We will see in mod 17 but I pretty much doubt that things will change at all.
The answer is, "Neither the cleric nor the warlock would be invited without the 60% outgoing healing, because without it they won't even finish." I think you should try the new trial before you make assumptions about it, because right now you know nothing about it.
I did not check the performance inside tomm, but maybe you show me a run where two Soulweaver without 60% outgoing healing do the job comparable to another combination. If you ask a professional racingdriver if he did enjoy the highway arround Paris at rushour and if you ask your mom you will allways get two difference answer. We will see in mod 17 but I pretty much doubt that things will change at all.
The answer is, "Neither the cleric nor the warlock would be invited without the 60% outgoing healing, because without it they won't even finish." I think you should try the new trial before you make assumptions about it, because right now you know nothing about it.
If that´s the actual position, there is not much left in this game for approximately 95% of player to stick with it. This is gonna be a big "selfinflicted oneshot" on cryptics side Playerbase melted down in mod16 , mod 17 will be the next step backwards as it looks.
PS: to get things down to hard facts -> lomm 13 Devout, 3x Oathkeeper no Soulweaver, no matter what we discuss in here , it´s thin air, in case 99,9% do play this game in another way, on another level and reality shows that 0,1% don´t represent 99,9%.
*I don´t even know how an Oathkeeper can achieve 60% outgoing healing at all without stacking absurd ammounts of Wisdom.
** not ment as offence, and honestly many thx for all that hard work for testing etc., but last mod we got a complete overhaul of classes, were the general consens from testing teams after several lomms was: "most striker are on a good level regarding dps" as far as I remember We know this is never gonna happen and we all know the reasons and we also know that some number, same as statements in this forum were not that valid, if we compare them with actual state of classes. Same as everyone knows that actual healerclasses same way are not balance at all. The biggest problem about all this is, that devs do not testrun and by that are dependent on informations.
Post edited by schietindebux on
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I feel like the Enrage timer in Phase 3 is slightly too brutal. I recommend increasing it to 13 minutes, or for the enrage timer to not count the periods of time he is in the air doing Disintegration Wave.
On my warlock it always deals 5% damage, maybe you can post a video on the bug report section and show how to reproduce it.
391,999 x 5% = 19,599.95
It is 5% per tick for normal Essence Drain. If a player is using the Essence of Power feat then it is a single burst of 30% HP damage.
This is only when you don't have an enemy targetted for essence drain and was added as a request from multiple Warlock players who wanted a way to use Essence Drain while enemies weren't around or while bosses were in immune states.
> @noworries#8859 said: > On my warlock it always deals 5% damage, maybe you can post a video on the bug report section and show how to reproduce it. > > 391,999 x 5% = 19,599.95 > (Spoiler) > > > > It is 5% per tick for normal Essence Drain. If a player is using the Essence of Power feat then it is a single burst of 30% HP damage. > > This is only when you don't have an enemy targetted for essence drain and was added as a request from multiple Warlock players who wanted a way to use Essence Drain while enemies weren't around or while bosses were in immune states.
Sure otherwise no option to heal. But I missed somehow the request for punishing mechanism linked with substantial abilities to heal without targeting options. That's somehow same category as deleting buffs by using tab or juggling with powers to apply curses at all for synergies and destroy them again in short
Maybe there was an issue with downleveling, no idea. I will retry it. Anyway 400 mag vs 1500 mag on crit is an issue noone can deny. DC 800mag vs 400mag, they did increase the Divinity cost but actually on life you can do the math about effectivity of healer same as Soulweaver is not existed outside pre-made runs.
I assure you the general groupsetup will not change even though a Soulweaver at Bis is maybe viable. What we discuss here is the upper 1% and maybe a general problem with overhealing at that level if incoming healing plus outgoing reaches a critical point. If you play on a lower geared level there will be not much argument to run with 2 Soulweaver when DC OP, or even OP OP is the better solution.
Warlock is likely a better support in the trial than cleric, I don't see why you should buff a support that is already performing well in the only content that matters.
How is warlock likely a better support? To be clear, I haven't run it yet and am asking out of curiosity. In ToMM I'm guessing it would be pally and warlock if not pally cleric. But why would you bother? PoP maybe?
ToMM looks like a very promising dungeon and I can't wait till I find the time to hop on preview and test it out myself.
What I really wanted to address is the "only content that matters" attitude. I enjoy running most of the content in the game and there's no reason warlocks that want to play as healers should be punished for doing so. Assuming warlocks are actually performing well in ToMM (I have no data either way) they're still very weak in all other content compared to other healer classes. I've done LoMM on warlock heals. It's hard, but possible. It requires people to use different tactics to normal(mostly just on boreworm) and be mindful that your burst healing potential is much lower and you sustained healing is much weaker. If you have a group that understands that, then a decently geared warlock will be able to do the content.
I'm sure I'll run ToMM as a warlock healer as well but I do agree the class has many things that need improvement. And I don't just mean magnitude values.
I guess my main questions are: Why is the difference in healing ability so great between the classes, especially when warlock is the squishiest of all the healers? Would the lack of healing ability be justified outside of the hardest content and best geared groups? Why would being a good support healer in a trial make up for having serious struggles as a solo healer(obv in a 5man you wont have the pally shield or cleric burst to make up for your own shortcomings)?
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arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
I took his statement as, since Warlocks can heal in the hardest trial to date, then everything else should be simple in comparison. This of course does not take into account the vast skill difference between players, which really isn't something that can be controlled, nor should be a basis for balance.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I took his statement as, since Warlocks can heal in the hardest trial to date, then everything else should be simple in comparison. This of course does not take into account the vast skill difference between players, which really isn't something that can be controlled, nor should be a basis for balance.
It was more that not only does warlock heal well, but they also have a buff in the form of PoP. You need every slight increase to damage you can get. The 3rd phase has a 12 minute and 30 second timer. If even 4 people die once, you will likely wipe due to running out of time due to not having enough damage.
I took his statement as, since Warlocks can heal in the hardest trial to date, then everything else should be simple in comparison. This of course does not take into account the vast skill difference between players, which really isn't something that can be controlled, nor should be a basis for balance.
It was more that not only does warlock heal well, but they also have a buff in the form of PoP. You need every slight increase to damage you can get. The 3rd phase has a 12 minute and 30 second timer. If even 4 people die once, you will likely wipe due to running out of time due to not having enough damage.
When I read more about the dps checks I actually figured this would be the case. I'm guessing the 5% dmg debuff SW can apply may also help some of the larger hits. In addition to this, the possible 25% dmg reduction life bind can grant(would this even be viable in the trial? Again, haven't run it. As a support for this reason warlock would be quite nice. However, how does relate to the healing ability outside of the trial? Or are you arguing that warlock is on par with other healers?Because in that case I disagree, but truthfully that's a discussion for a different thread.
I took his statement as, since Warlocks can heal in the hardest trial to date, then everything else should be simple in comparison. This of course does not take into account the vast skill difference between players, which really isn't something that can be controlled, nor should be a basis for balance.
I agree with this generally. However, it doesn't take into account the fact that trials have two healers. Another healer can make up for SW's shortcomings but in solo play?
Can a warlock that's completed the trial share their experience maybe?
I did not check the performance inside tomm, but maybe you show me a run where two Soulweaver without 60% outgoing healing do the job comparable to another combination. If you ask a professional racingdriver if he did enjoy the highway arround Paris at rushour and if you ask your mom you will allways get two difference answer. We will see in mod 17 but I pretty much doubt that things will change at all.
re: driving around paris at rushhour... will you though? I'm guessing the answer would be the same from both mom and racecar driver because driving at rush hour sucks. jus sayin is all.
I feel like the Enrage timer in Phase 3 is slightly too brutal. I recommend increasing it to 13 minutes, or for the enrage timer to not count the periods of time he is in the air doing Disintegration Wave.
At this point we plan to launch with the current enrage timer. We believe there is still a lot of opportunity for increased efficiency in DPS, in terms of uptime and avoiding res sickness. That being said, we will, of course, be watching even after launch and consider making adjustments if necessary.
I would like to comment on something that hasn't been discussed in this thread directly, but I see coming up a lot on streams. (And in lots of video clips titled "LASSOR!!") First of all, for clarification for those that may not know, Lassor is the producer on the trial but is not actually responsible for making any design decisions or adjustments on the trial. So while everyone should thank Lassor for his tireless service communicating and facilitating the trial testing, don't blame him too much for what kills you!
But on to the point: those of you who have been running the trial may have run into so-called "impossible sequences." I just wanted to clarify that none of the recorded sequences happen naturally without input. Those "impossible sequences;" namely sequences where permafrost is followed by a number of mechanics that make it nearly impossible to concentrate on breaking the ice, occur when a phase push happens immediately after/during permafrost.
Normally I'd opt to not discuss strategy, but since phase management is something that's never really been a part of Neverwinter I believe it bares mentioning that the current version of the fight (which will be the launch version) does involve phase management. This may have become more noticeable in the patch where the enrage timer was increased, as Halaster now always goes directly into his disintegration wave combo when transitioning out of an element if he hasn't already naturally hit that point in his rotation.
I would like to clarify one particular point which is that it is intended (since the effect is so long) that creeping ice does dissipate on phase transitions. Currently there is an issue where creeping ice remains when Halaster transitions to Sunfall if he does so due to his enrage timer (not due to reaching 10%.) This is a bug and will be resolved before the trial is available on live.
heya, maybe a dev could clarify if the Perks on the rings are intended to stay the way they are now. Because as it stands now, i dont see a use for rings that give dmg against beasts or Undead, unless Halastar is one of those. Maybe u could seperate the Perks from the Rings, and let the perks be craftable, or let a "Perk kit" drop in the trial.
Heres a good one... Warlocks do horrible dps.. the only feat that could potentially help us is broken(Creeping Death) and we would still be 65 percent behind the top dps class, one of our encounters which would make a nice rotation is broken(infernal spheres). It literally gets stuck every rotation you toss it in... heres the kicker though... bug reports are broken on preview ..i give up
I took his statement as, since Warlocks can heal in the hardest trial to date, then everything else should be simple in comparison. This of course does not take into account the vast skill difference between players, which really isn't something that can be controlled, nor should be a basis for balance.
I agree with this generally. However, it doesn't take into account the fact that trials have two healers. Another healer can make up for SW's shortcomings but in solo play?
Can a warlock that's completed the trial share their experience maybe?
From what I saw, the heal warlock uses a lot soul reconstruction on tank (there is always this green line showing) and probably shatter sparks for sustained small healing, whereas the main group healing/temp HP is done by the heal paladin (who is a mandatory class in this trial...). The fact that the warlock dedicates his healing to the tank prevents the paladin to waste too many divine touches. Of course, there is PoP on top. But maybe it is just my impression.
I feel like the Enrage timer in Phase 3 is slightly too brutal. I recommend increasing it to 13 minutes, or for the enrage timer to not count the periods of time he is in the air doing Disintegration Wave.
At this point we plan to launch with the current enrage timer. We believe there is still a lot of opportunity for increased efficiency in DPS, in terms of uptime and avoiding res sickness. That being said, we will, of course, be watching even after launch and consider making adjustments if necessary.
I would like to comment on something that hasn't been discussed in this thread directly, but I see coming up a lot on streams. (And in lots of video clips titled "LASSOR!!") First of all, for clarification for those that may not know, Lassor is the producer on the trial but is not actually responsible for making any design decisions or adjustments on the trial. So while everyone should thank Lassor for his tireless service communicating and facilitating the trial testing, don't blame him too much for what kills you!
But on to the point: those of you who have been running the trial may have run into so-called "impossible sequences." I just wanted to clarify that none of the recorded sequences happen naturally without input. Those "impossible sequences;" namely sequences where permafrost is followed by a number of mechanics that make it nearly impossible to concentrate on breaking the ice, occur when a phase push happens immediately after/during permafrost.
Normally I'd opt to not discuss strategy, but since phase management is something that's never really been a part of Neverwinter I believe it bares mentioning that the current version of the fight (which will be the launch version) does involve phase management. This may have become more noticeable in the patch where the enrage timer was increased, as Halaster now always goes directly into his disintegration wave combo when transitioning out of an element if he hasn't already naturally hit that point in his rotation.
Part of the issue I don't like on sequencing of phases is that this isn't the first time it has been used in game. The two dungeons that have it or are supposed to have it are MSP last boss and CR last boss. Those two dungeons for long periods of time have players failing all of the time in them and have the worst amount of negative reviews over time. They also due to how touchy the sequencing is usually have times where you can't complete them because some new update breaks the phases and makes the content impossible. When the devs that made this content leave will there be someone who can correctly update the code to make the content complete-able?
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Out of the 11 DPS paths present in the game (i.e. fighter x1, cleric x1, warlock x1, rogue x2, ranger x2, barbarian x1, cleric x1, wizard x2), only 2-3 of them were represented in the last successful or semi-succesful TOMMs: do you developers intend to do something so that other dps paths can succeed in phase 3 or during dps check?? As you have already noticed, it is already very painful to succeed in a non-rainbow party and for now, I don't see any safety margin for other "weaker" classes. It is about time to perform the promised classes "adjustments" with the data you already have (from Tomm or from other DB benchmark sources).... I wish it will NOT result in a nerf of Tomm difficulty of course, just hope for class balance for everybody's happiness .
Out of the 11 DPS paths present in the game (i.e. fighter x1, cleric x1, warlock x1, rogue x2, ranger x2, barbarian x1, cleric x1, wizard x2), only 2-3 of them were represented in the last successful or semi-succesful TOMMs: do you developers intend to do something so that other dps paths can succeed in phase 3 or during dps check?? As you have already noticed, it is already very painful to succeed in a non-rainbow party and for now, I don't see any safety margin for other "weaker" classes. It is about time to perform the promised classes "adjustments" with the data you already have (from Tomm or from other DB benchmark sources).... I wish it will NOT result in a nerf of Tomm difficulty of course, just hope for class balance for everybody's happiness .
I love this cause it highlights the issues with class balance rn. Wizzy, Ranger, and Rouge dominate dps by an absurdly large margin. They don't need to be nerfed though, other classes need improvements. My 2 cents
> Out of the 11 DPS paths present in the game (i.e. fighter x1, cleric x1, warlock x1, rogue x2, ranger x2, barbarian x1, cleric x1, wizard x2), only 2-3 of them were represented in the last successful or semi-succesful TOMMs: do you developers intend to do something so that other dps paths can succeed in phase 3 or during dps check??
> As you have already noticed, it is already very painful to succeed in a non-rainbow party and for now, I don't see any safety margin for other "weaker" classes.
> It is about time to perform the promised classes "adjustments" with the data you already have (from Tomm or from other DB benchmark sources)....
> I wish it will NOT result in a nerf of Tomm difficulty of course, just hope for class balance for everybody's happiness .
>
> I love this cause it highlights the issues with class balance rn. Wizzy, Ranger, and Rouge dominate dps by an absurdly large margin. They don't need to be nerfed though, other classes need improvements. My 2 cents
Just bcuz Rangers are in those groups, this doesnt mean they top dps, hell if they are even top 5, Rangers are on par with Barbarians and the other dps classes, its true that wizards and rogues perform better, but Rangers do need some changes, and the same goes for other classes.
Agree, rangers have insane burst on melee path that make them feel gods in short fights like LotMM, but are severely underperforming on switching stances rotation, the "trapper" one to be clearer, that should shine on long fights but it's not due to bugs/bad design. For what i hear from friends and channels rogue and wizards are quite on par at the moment, should make more sense getting other classes to same level in order to not have to rework trial again, just hope needed improvement to come before trial gets on live because every change needs time to be tested and to eventually implement more adjustment/fixes after. I noticed many untracked fixes on preview that clearly shows devs are working on classes, pace should prly get faster if the goal is what I said above.
Comments
391,999 x 5% = 19,599.95
I assure you the general groupsetup will not change even though a Soulweaver at Bis is maybe viable. What we discuss here is the upper 1% and maybe a general problem with overhealing at that level if incoming healing plus outgoing reaches a critical point. If you play on a lower geared level there will be not much argument to run with 2 Soulweaver when DC OP, or even OP OP is the better solution. Critical Devine Touch barrier got not overwritten by another non crit barrier last time I checked it. So savemode might be 2 OP in the end, not sure if that's working in mod 17.
This is gonna be a big "selfinflicted oneshot" on cryptics side
Playerbase melted down in mod16 , mod 17 will be the next step backwards as it looks.
PS: to get things down to hard facts -> lomm 13 Devout, 3x Oathkeeper no Soulweaver, no matter what we discuss in here , it´s thin air, in case 99,9% do play this game in another way, on another level and reality shows that 0,1% don´t represent 99,9%.
*I don´t even know how an Oathkeeper can achieve 60% outgoing healing at all without stacking absurd ammounts of Wisdom.
** not ment as offence, and honestly many thx for all that hard work for testing etc., but last mod we got a complete overhaul of classes, were the general consens from testing teams after several lomms was:
"most striker are on a good level regarding dps" as far as I remember
We know this is never gonna happen and we all know the reasons and we also know that some number, same as statements in this forum were not that valid, if we compare them with actual state of classes. Same as everyone knows that actual healerclasses same way are not balance at all.
The biggest problem about all this is, that devs do not testrun and by that are dependent on informations.
This is only when you don't have an enemy targetted for essence drain and was added as a request from multiple Warlock players who wanted a way to use Essence Drain while enemies weren't around or while bosses were in immune states.
> On my warlock it always deals 5% damage, maybe you can post a video on the bug report section and show how to reproduce it.
>
> 391,999 x 5% = 19,599.95
> (Spoiler)
>
>
>
> It is 5% per tick for normal Essence Drain. If a player is using the Essence of Power feat then it is a single burst of 30% HP damage.
>
> This is only when you don't have an enemy targetted for essence drain and was added as a request from multiple Warlock players who wanted a way to use Essence Drain while enemies weren't around or while bosses were in immune states.
Sure otherwise no option to heal. But I missed somehow the request for punishing mechanism linked with substantial abilities to heal without targeting options. That's somehow same category as deleting buffs by using tab or juggling with powers to apply curses at all for synergies and destroy them again in short
In ToMM I'm guessing it would be pally and warlock if not pally cleric. But why would you bother? PoP maybe?
ToMM looks like a very promising dungeon and I can't wait till I find the time to hop on preview and test it out myself.
What I really wanted to address is the "only content that matters" attitude. I enjoy running most of the content in the game and there's no reason warlocks that want to play as healers should be punished for doing so. Assuming warlocks are actually performing well in ToMM (I have no data either way) they're still very weak in all other content compared to other healer classes.
I've done LoMM on warlock heals. It's hard, but possible. It requires people to use different tactics to normal(mostly just on boreworm) and be mindful that your burst healing potential is much lower and you sustained healing is much weaker. If you have a group that understands that, then a decently geared warlock will be able to do the content.
I'm sure I'll run ToMM as a warlock healer as well but I do agree the class has many things that need improvement. And I don't just mean magnitude values.
I guess my main questions are: Why is the difference in healing ability so great between the classes, especially when warlock is the squishiest of all the healers? Would the lack of healing ability be justified outside of the hardest content and best geared groups? Why would being a good support healer in a trial make up for having serious struggles as a solo healer(obv in a 5man you wont have the pally shield or cleric burst to make up for your own shortcomings)?
Can a warlock that's completed the trial share their experience maybe?
I'm guessing the answer would be the same from both mom and racecar driver because driving at rush hour sucks. jus sayin is all.
I would like to comment on something that hasn't been discussed in this thread directly, but I see coming up a lot on streams. (And in lots of video clips titled "LASSOR!!") First of all, for clarification for those that may not know, Lassor is the producer on the trial but is not actually responsible for making any design decisions or adjustments on the trial. So while everyone should thank Lassor for his tireless service communicating and facilitating the trial testing, don't blame him too much for what kills you!
But on to the point: those of you who have been running the trial may have run into so-called "impossible sequences." I just wanted to clarify that none of the recorded sequences happen naturally without input. Those "impossible sequences;" namely sequences where permafrost is followed by a number of mechanics that make it nearly impossible to concentrate on breaking the ice, occur when a phase push happens immediately after/during permafrost.
Normally I'd opt to not discuss strategy, but since phase management is something that's never really been a part of Neverwinter I believe it bares mentioning that the current version of the fight (which will be the launch version) does involve phase management. This may have become more noticeable in the patch where the enrage timer was increased, as Halaster now always goes directly into his disintegration wave combo when transitioning out of an element if he hasn't already naturally hit that point in his rotation.
Maybe u could seperate the Perks from the Rings, and let the perks be craftable, or let a "Perk kit" drop in the trial.
Regards Malebot
But maybe it is just my impression.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
As you have already noticed, it is already very painful to succeed in a non-rainbow party and for now, I don't see any safety margin for other "weaker" classes.
It is about time to perform the promised classes "adjustments" with the data you already have (from Tomm or from other DB benchmark sources)....
I wish it will NOT result in a nerf of Tomm difficulty of course, just hope for class balance for everybody's happiness .
For what i hear from friends and channels rogue and wizards are quite on par at the moment, should make more sense getting other classes to same level in order to not have to rework trial again, just hope needed improvement to come before trial gets on live because every change needs time to be tested and to eventually implement more adjustment/fixes after.
I noticed many untracked fixes on preview that clearly shows devs are working on classes, pace should prly get faster if the goal is what I said above.