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Method behind the madness of enchants in mod 16

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  • silence1xsilence1x Member Posts: 1,503 Arc User
    Perhaps Mod 17 will remove enchants - we just purchase the upgrades directly ;)
    I aim to misbehave
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User

    adinosii said:

    bobo#5090 said:

    and one toon that has maybe 5 r13+ enchants(including the 1 free r14 anniversary enchant, and the one free r14 from AI). I have 1.4 million refine points, 5 coal wards, and 40+ pres wards. Guess I hoard that junk, cuz it sounds like it's all worthless?

    Well, it's not that bad. because of the change from 500->1% to 1000->1% they are only half as effective as they used to be. The simple fact is that most of the stats in M16 comes from easily obtainable gear, and the contribution of things like enchants, boons and anything else you have to grind for is being cut.

    I don't know why - this is the exact wrong direction as far as I am concerned, as it devalues the whole idea of progression and the enjoyment many players get out of working hard for a "meaningful" upgrade.
    I am actually a bit surprised why they did not increase the points given by high-end enchants. When people realize it is not as worthwhile to upgrade enchants as it used to be, it will reduce the demand for wards, which in the long run will probably reduce Zen sales.

    "It's not that bad [if you have not refined 30-40 rank 14 non-bonding stone enchants]".
    Okay. enough venting.
    Let's argue logic. This was illogical from every angle including as a business decision:
    Cryptic's Benefit:
    As you say, increasing value of refineable assets (enchants) coupled with the rank increase will result in increased zen sales and reduction in the AD market surplus (due to AD Store and AH-fees for refining mats).
    Took would gladly have bought some zen and stocked up on coal wards.

    But instead, they decreased the value.
    Now hundreds of players who would have been desperate to upgrade their 'chants from 14 to 15 will hesitate.
    Much less likely to spend real money or Zen for something half as valuable.

    Not a smart business move.
    Enchants r dead. Sure the min/max obsessed will do what they do but for me at least further upgrades have no meaning or value. I can max out every stat cap right now with an augment and get dam close with a striker. This chg will not drive investment.

    In general, i feel that MOD 16 is a last ditch effort to add longevity to a game that can no longer be effectively supported. In the process of getting the code to that point they devalued the efforts of the player bases' progression by nerfing ench, comps, mounts while at the same time insulting anyone who can fog a mirror with lobotomized boons and feats. You can actually play without boons or feats and barely notice a difference.

    As someone who has an attachment to the Paladin class I find it laughable that their efforts to fix a broken class resulted in a tank that only needs 2 buttons to function successfully. How entertaining /sarcasm. The creativity just can not be measured effectively.
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    ragnarz2 said:

    adinosii said:

    bobo#5090 said:

    and one toon that has maybe 5 r13+ enchants(including the 1 free r14 anniversary enchant, and the one free r14 from AI). I have 1.4 million refine points, 5 coal wards, and 40+ pres wards. Guess I hoard that junk, cuz it sounds like it's all worthless?

    Well, it's not that bad. because of the change from 500->1% to 1000->1% they are only half as effective as they used to be. The simple fact is that most of the stats in M16 comes from easily obtainable gear, and the contribution of things like enchants, boons and anything else you have to grind for is being cut.

    I don't know why - this is the exact wrong direction as far as I am concerned, as it devalues the whole idea of progression and the enjoyment many players get out of working hard for a "meaningful" upgrade.
    I am actually a bit surprised why they did not increase the points given by high-end enchants. When people realize it is not as worthwhile to upgrade enchants as it used to be, it will reduce the demand for wards, which in the long run will probably reduce Zen sales.

    "It's not that bad [if you have not refined 30-40 rank 14 non-bonding stone enchants]".
    Okay. enough venting.
    Let's argue logic. This was illogical from every angle including as a business decision:
    Cryptic's Benefit:
    As you say, increasing value of refineable assets (enchants) coupled with the rank increase will result in increased zen sales and reduction in the AD market surplus (due to AD Store and AH-fees for refining mats).
    Took would gladly have bought some zen and stocked up on coal wards.

    But instead, they decreased the value.
    Now hundreds of players who would have been desperate to upgrade their 'chants from 14 to 15 will hesitate.
    Much less likely to spend real money or Zen for something half as valuable.

    Not a smart business move.
    Enchants r dead. Sure the min/max obsessed will do what they do but for me at least further upgrades have no meaning or value. I can max out every stat cap right now with an augment and get dam close with a striker. This chg will not drive investment.

    In general, i feel that MOD 16 is a last ditch effort to add longevity to a game that can no longer be effectively supported. In the process of getting the code to that point they devalued the efforts of the player bases' progression by nerfing ench, comps, mounts while at the same time insulting anyone who can fog a mirror with lobotomized boons and feats. You can actually play without boons or feats and barely notice a difference.

    As someone who has an attachment to the Paladin class I find it laughable that their efforts to fix a broken class resulted in a tank that only needs 2 buttons to function successfully. How entertaining /sarcasm. The creativity just can not be measured effectively.
    Although everything you have said is spot on and unfortunate. Its possible mod 17 will address the issues? Who knows. I hear this new system is much easier to "tweak" than the older system (mod 15 -). This can mean two things. They can bump one class up, bump another class down, make adjustments to get you to that point where you feel at least somewhat strong again. But I also know they have built a wall, a wall that many aren't talking about. No not Trump's wall, this one is worse. This wall is where they negate all your stats because boss fights will have resistances to your stats. If you have a cap on crit chance so what if the boss negates all that crit chance leaving you with the base 5% crit chance? To me this system is convoluted. They can just grant mobs what ever resistance they want.

    So lets just theorize here, lets say they listen to the players who are complaining about them removing all the impacts of boons, companions, enchants, mounts ect. They decide to bump everything up to make the players happy. Well you know what they will also do? Bump the resistances of the mobs at the same time, resulting in no net gain. All it will be is larger numbers but the same result.

  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,264 Arc User
    They surely have flattened the character development curve considerably.

    There could be several reasons for this:
    * The current huge dps gap between the 12k IL and 18k IL makes content tuning hard
    * The current huge dps gap scares the low IL people away and is not casual friendly

    I do worry that they have made the curve too flat, however. If you get no increase in combat power with improved gear, it all becomes rather pointless.
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User

    They surely have flattened the character development curve considerably.

    There could be several reasons for this:
    * The current huge dps gap between the 12k IL and 18k IL makes content tuning hard
    * The current huge dps gap scares the low IL people away and is not casual friendly

    I do worry that they have made the curve too flat, however. If you get no increase in combat power with improved gear, it all becomes rather pointless.

    The well known secret of MMO's is character progression. It is what drives players. The flattening as you put it flies in the face of human nature. It is quite baffling how such a decision was reached.

    Also, it is no longer a curve. its more of a bar graph . . . flat flat spike plateau wait for next mod, repeat. AKA hamster wheel.
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    krumple01 said:

    ragnarz2 said:

    adinosii said:

    bobo#5090 said:

    and one toon that has maybe 5 r13+ enchants(including the 1 free r14 anniversary enchant, and the one free r14 from AI). I have 1.4 million refine points, 5 coal wards, and 40+ pres wards. Guess I hoard that junk, cuz it sounds like it's all worthless?

    Well, it's not that bad. because of the change from 500->1% to 1000->1% they are only half as effective as they used to be. The simple fact is that most of the stats in M16 comes from easily obtainable gear, and the contribution of things like enchants, boons and anything else you have to grind for is being cut.

    I don't know why - this is the exact wrong direction as far as I am concerned, as it devalues the whole idea of progression and the enjoyment many players get out of working hard for a "meaningful" upgrade.
    I am actually a bit surprised why they did not increase the points given by high-end enchants. When people realize it is not as worthwhile to upgrade enchants as it used to be, it will reduce the demand for wards, which in the long run will probably reduce Zen sales.

    "It's not that bad [if you have not refined 30-40 rank 14 non-bonding stone enchants]".
    Okay. enough venting.
    Let's argue logic. This was illogical from every angle including as a business decision:
    Cryptic's Benefit:
    As you say, increasing value of refineable assets (enchants) coupled with the rank increase will result in increased zen sales and reduction in the AD market surplus (due to AD Store and AH-fees for refining mats).
    Took would gladly have bought some zen and stocked up on coal wards.

    But instead, they decreased the value.
    Now hundreds of players who would have been desperate to upgrade their 'chants from 14 to 15 will hesitate.
    Much less likely to spend real money or Zen for something half as valuable.

    Not a smart business move.
    Enchants r dead. Sure the min/max obsessed will do what they do but for me at least further upgrades have no meaning or value. I can max out every stat cap right now with an augment and get dam close with a striker. This chg will not drive investment.

    In general, i feel that MOD 16 is a last ditch effort to add longevity to a game that can no longer be effectively supported. In the process of getting the code to that point they devalued the efforts of the player bases' progression by nerfing ench, comps, mounts while at the same time insulting anyone who can fog a mirror with lobotomized boons and feats. You can actually play without boons or feats and barely notice a difference.

    As someone who has an attachment to the Paladin class I find it laughable that their efforts to fix a broken class resulted in a tank that only needs 2 buttons to function successfully. How entertaining /sarcasm. The creativity just can not be measured effectively.
    Although everything you have said is spot on and unfortunate. Its possible mod 17 will address the issues? Who knows. I hear this new system is much easier to "tweak" than the older system (mod 15 -). This can mean two things. They can bump one class up, bump another class down, make adjustments to get you to that point where you feel at least somewhat strong again. But I also know they have built a wall, a wall that many aren't talking about. No not Trump's wall, this one is worse. This wall is where they negate all your stats because boss fights will have resistances to your stats. If you have a cap on crit chance so what if the boss negates all that crit chance leaving you with the base 5% crit chance? To me this system is convoluted. They can just grant mobs what ever resistance they want.

    So lets just theorize here, lets say they listen to the players who are complaining about them removing all the impacts of boons, companions, enchants, mounts ect. They decide to bump everything up to make the players happy. Well you know what they will also do? Bump the resistances of the mobs at the same time, resulting in no net gain. All it will be is larger numbers but the same result.

    I have a different theory. The rest of the player base (everyone - 250 people who tested) suddenly realizes character progression is dead and that all their efforts to raise their IL has been devalued and vote with their feet.
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    ragnarz2 said:


    I have a different theory. The rest of the player base (everyone - 250 people who tested) suddenly realizes character progression is dead and that all their efforts to raise their IL has been devalued and vote with their feet.

    Well you are right about that too. But don't underestimate the difficulty in breaking up with a game. Some find that easier than others. Its easy to live in denial with hope that the game will turn out how you always wanted, in mod X. So some will put up with the abuse and neglect and the insults and continue playing despite all that.

  • havlockehavlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    Hmm ok, somehow people are seeing a whole lot more altruists then I ever have in this game. Nearly everybody I've seen run that runs ahead, JUST RUNS AHEAD.

    I would have no problem if they are killing mobs along the way. But this rarely happens. Lets be honest. Most of the time, the people running ahead don't care to stop for anything, let alone killing ALL the mobs in the way. As some people here have already stated, this lets them have time in the purple circle to "do their banking and mails and stuff".
  • havlockehavlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User

    adinosii said:

    bobo#5090 said:

    and one toon that has maybe 5 r13+ enchants(including the 1 free r14 anniversary enchant, and the one free r14 from AI). I have 1.4 million refine points, 5 coal wards, and 40+ pres wards. Guess I hoard that junk, cuz it sounds like it's all worthless?

    Well, it's not that bad. because of the change from 500->1% to 1000->1% they are only half as effective as they used to be. The simple fact is that most of the stats in M16 comes from easily obtainable gear, and the contribution of things like enchants, boons and anything else you have to grind for is being cut.

    I don't know why - this is the exact wrong direction as far as I am concerned, as it devalues the whole idea of progression and the enjoyment many players get out of working hard for a "meaningful" upgrade.
    I am actually a bit surprised why they did not increase the points given by high-end enchants. When people realize it is not as worthwhile to upgrade enchants as it used to be, it will reduce the demand for wards, which in the long run will probably reduce Zen sales.

    "It's not that bad [if you have not refined 30-40 rank 14 non-bonding stone enchants]".
    Okay. enough venting.
    Let's argue logic. This was illogical from every angle including as a business decision:
    Cryptic's Benefit:
    As you say, increasing value of refineable assets (enchants) coupled with the rank increase will result in increased zen sales and reduction in the AD market surplus (due to AD Store and AH-fees for refining mats).
    Took would gladly have bought some zen and stocked up on coal wards.

    But instead, they decreased the value.
    Now hundreds of players who would have been desperate to upgrade their 'chants from 14 to 15 will hesitate.
    Much less likely to spend real money or Zen for something half as valuable.

    Not a smart business move.
    Why do you think they will hesitate? The majority of gamers will always want the end gear simply because its end gear. Nobody really cares what the numbers are. If it takes longer to get it then that happens. But they will still aim for it. The actual value is irrelevant.

    Yes, if they are number crunchers, they will hesitate, its a lot of work after all. They might spend their time or effort on something else first. But eventually, they will get those 'chants to 15. Because its there.

    As for the long view. The game is better off if the top end is a pyramid.

    1) The monomaniacal people will still be getting the end game enchants regardless - And can then show it off. Its all just pixels after all. The ONLY real world value is the ability to show it off. Lets not forget that.

    2) But the casual players who cannot afford the time and effort can look at it and go "its a lot of work but I don't think I get enough value out of it so I won't need to bother - and I'm ok with that". As opposed to "jesus If I don't get it to rank 15 I'm completely inadequate, this game is too hard". It's all perceptions. If they think they don't need to do it, then they won't care (as much) if somebody else does.




  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    > @havlocke said:
    > and one toon that has maybe 5 r13+ enchants(including the 1 free r14 anniversary enchant, and the one free r14 from AI). I have 1.4 million refine points, 5 coal wards, and 40+ pres wards. Guess I hoard that junk, cuz it sounds like it's all worthless?
    >
    > Well, it's not that bad. because of the change from 500->1% to 1000->1% they are only half as effective as they used to be. The simple fact is that most of the stats in M16 comes from easily obtainable gear, and the contribution of things like enchants, boons and anything else you have to grind for is being cut.
    >
    > I don't know why - this is the exact wrong direction as far as I am concerned, as it devalues the whole idea of progression and the enjoyment many players get out of working hard for a "meaningful" upgrade.
    > I am actually a bit surprised why they did not increase the points given by high-end enchants. When people realize it is not as worthwhile to upgrade enchants as it used to be, it will reduce the demand for wards, which in the long run will probably reduce Zen sales.
    >
    >
    >
    > "It's not that bad [if you have not refined 30-40 rank 14 non-bonding stone enchants]".
    > Okay. enough venting.
    > Let's argue logic. This was illogical from every angle including as a business decision:
    > Cryptic's Benefit:
    > As you say, increasing value of refineable assets (enchants) coupled with the rank increase will result in increased zen sales and reduction in the AD market surplus (due to AD Store and AH-fees for refining mats).
    > Took would gladly have bought some zen and stocked up on coal wards.
    >
    > But instead, they decreased the value.
    > Now hundreds of players who would have been desperate to upgrade their 'chants from 14 to 15 will hesitate.
    > Much less likely to spend real money or Zen for something half as valuable.
    >
    > Not a smart business move.
    >
    > Why do you think they will hesitate? The majority of gamers will always want the end gear simply because its end gear. Nobody really cares what the numbers are. If it takes longer to get it then that happens. But they will still aim for it. The actual value is irrelevant.
    >
    > Yes, if they are number crunchers, they will hesitate, its a lot of work after all. They might spend their time or effort on something else first. But eventually, they will get those 'chants to 15. Because its there.
    >
    > As for the long view. The game is better off if the top end is a pyramid.
    >
    > 1) The monomaniacal people will still be getting the end game enchants regardless - And can then show it off. Its all just pixels after all. The ONLY real world value is the ability to show it off. Lets not forget that.
    >

    You realize stat enchants have no visual effect, right?
    A player in rank 15s looks the same as one in rank 9s.
    It's not a FX vanity perk.

    I have full rank 14s on several toons.
    I painstakingly earned them in order to improve my performance.
    Grind them all up to 15 just to impress you?
    With no meaningful performance improvement?
    Hell no.
    I'm not among the best players in this game, but I know quite a few.
    None of them will waste dozens of hours gaining worthless ranks.

    You overestimate the egos of endgame players.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 904 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    For those who put in the time and effort to boost your speed, I sympathize with the feeling all of that time and effort has been wasted…

    But it goes without being said there is a group of speed runners who tend to regularly leave slower party members behind, run past mobs leaving slower less experienced players to deal with those mobs or even killing every thing they come across and leave little to nothing for slower players to do except follow behind and pick up random piles of stuff laying around - that is if the faster player(s) aren't berating the slower players for taking too long or not being able to keep up.

    I’m speculating this reason more than any other is why movement speeds were so seriously nerfed and for all of those to whom this type of behavior applies, you have no one to blame but yourselves as far as I'm concerned.

    As has already been mentioned it is frustrating and disheartening for slower players to have to slog through mobs left behind and nearly as bad to go through a dungeon doing nothing picking up stuff along the way. Very few players to my personal knowledge consider something like that fun… so newbies especially are more likely to just give up on the game instead of staying to play. That’s not good for the survivability of the game nor the game economy when new players become so disenchanted they just quit.

    Few new or slow moving players have the ability to increase their movement speed to keep up with the fastest – every fast moving player has the ability to slow down or wait for the rest of the party, if it looks like one or more members of the party are struggling to keep up.

    I believe that since some players haven’t done so voluntarily it forced the developer’s hand to come up with some kind of solution – like eliminating or seriously nerfing max movement speed.

    Those who blame slower players or the developers for this change can cry about it all they want, but the rest of us know who's really to blame and it's not the slower players or the developers.

    My2¢
    DD~
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    dionchi said:

    For those who put in the time and effort to boost your speed, I sympathize with the feeling all of that time and effort has been wasted…

    But it goes without being said there is a group of speed runners who tend to regularly leave slower party members behind, run past mobs leaving slower less experienced players to deal with those mobs or even killing every thing they come across and leave little to nothing for slower players to do except follow behind and pick up random piles of stuff laying around - that is if the faster player(s) aren't berating the slower players for taking too long or not being able to keep up.

    I’m speculating this reason more than any other is why movement speeds were so seriously nerfed and for all of those to whom this type of behavior applies, you have no one to blame but yourselves as far as I'm concerned.

    As has already been mentioned it is frustrating and disheartening for slower players to have to slog through mobs left behind and nearly as bad to go through a dungeon doing nothing picking up stuff along the way. Very few players to my personal knowledge consider something like that fun… so newbies especially are more likely to just give up on the game instead of staying to play. That’s not good for the survivability of the game nor the game economy when new players become so disenchanted they just quit.

    Few new or slow moving players have the ability to increase their movement speed to keep up with the fastest – every fast moving player has the ability to slow down or wait for the rest of the party, if it looks like one or more members of the party are struggling to keep up.

    I believe that since some players haven’t done so voluntarily it forced the developer’s hand to come up with some kind of solution – like eliminating or seriously nerfing max movement speed.

    Those who blame slower players or the developers for this change can cry about it all they want, but the rest of us know who's really to blame and it's not the slower players or the developers.

    My2¢

    The thing is your whole argument makes no sense.

    Okay so they program the ability to stack dark enchants that give movement speed in utility slots. What is the alternative? Nothing great, experience bonus? Nah when you already make plenty of experience. Gold gains? Don't really care that much since you can make plenty of gold.

    I think it is absurd that you suggest a "fast" character should spend time ranking up an enchant only to negate it by waiting up for a character that doesn't have the speed. Really? Then what is the point in upgrading the enchantment? Nothing. The game provided a hoop, and players jumped through that hoop, they earned, paid or grinded out for that speed, they should be able to use it.

    New players are the ones crying so they should follow the same path everyone else took. Grind up those darks, feed in your AD and one day, you will be able to keep up. Until then you can cry all you want about fast players leaving you behind.

    So no this whole thing is the fault of new players whining and complaining that they can't keep up with veteran players.

    Actually even after I said all that, I really don't care about the speed change to be honest. The darks can be traded/exchanged for enchantments in mod 16 that you want. Although those Darks are still worth something.

    Speed isn't entirely gone. Dex score and one feat and one boon allow for stacking increased movement speed. So technically they didn't get rid of the problem you propose. It's still in mod 16 yet actually harder for new players to obtain where as when it was in Darks at least they could get it rather easily. Now its much harder. So this will set those with dex, feat and boon apart from the "newbs".

  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 904 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    krumple01 said:

    dionchi said:

    For those who put in the time and effort to boost your speed, I sympathize with the feeling all of that time and effort has been wasted…

    But it goes without being said there is a group of speed runners who tend to regularly leave slower party members behind, run past mobs leaving slower less experienced players to deal with those mobs or even killing every thing they come across and leave little to nothing for slower players to do except follow behind and pick up random piles of stuff laying around - that is if the faster player(s) aren't berating the slower players for taking too long or not being able to keep up.

    I’m speculating this reason more than any other is why movement speeds were so seriously nerfed and for all of those to whom this type of behavior applies, you have no one to blame but yourselves as far as I'm concerned.

    As has already been mentioned it is frustrating and disheartening for slower players to have to slog through mobs left behind and nearly as bad to go through a dungeon doing nothing picking up stuff along the way. Very few players to my personal knowledge consider something like that fun… so newbies especially are more likely to just give up on the game instead of staying to play. That’s not good for the survivability of the game nor the game economy when new players become so disenchanted they just quit.

    Few new or slow moving players have the ability to increase their movement speed to keep up with the fastest – every fast moving player has the ability to slow down or wait for the rest of the party, if it looks like one or more members of the party are struggling to keep up.

    I believe that since some players haven’t done so voluntarily it forced the developer’s hand to come up with some kind of solution – like eliminating or seriously nerfing max movement speed.

    Those who blame slower players or the developers for this change can cry about it all they want, but the rest of us know who's really to blame and it's not the slower players or the developers.

    My2¢

    The thing is your whole argument makes no sense.

    Okay so they program the ability to stack dark enchants that give movement speed in utility slots. What is the alternative? Nothing great, experience bonus? Nah when you already make plenty of experience. Gold gains? Don't really care that much since you can make plenty of gold.

    I think it is absurd that you suggest a "fast" character should spend time ranking up an enchant only to negate it by waiting up for a character that doesn't have the speed. Really? Then what is the point in upgrading the enchantment? Nothing. The game provided a hoop, and players jumped through that hoop, they earned, paid or grinded out for that speed, they should be able to use it.

    New players are the ones crying so they should follow the same path everyone else took. Grind up those darks, feed in your AD and one day, you will be able to keep up. Until then you can cry all you want about fast players leaving you behind.

    So no this whole thing is the fault of new players whining and complaining that they can't keep up with veteran players.

    Actually even after I said all that, I really don't care about the speed change to be honest. The darks can be traded/exchanged for enchantments in mod 16 that you want. Although those Darks are still worth something.

    Speed isn't entirely gone. Dex score and one feat and one boon allow for stacking increased movement speed. So technically they didn't get rid of the problem you propose. It's still in mod 16 yet actually harder for new players to obtain where as when it was in Darks at least they could get it rather easily. Now its much harder. So this will set those with dex, feat and boon apart from the "newbs".

    Just because you can rob a bank, doesn't mean you should rob a bank...

    Of course the dark enchantments are able to increase the movement speed of those who have them slotted - but dungeons and skirmishes were also designed to be run by a party, not as a solo event...

    To say a player should be able to move faster than anyone else in the party because the game programmed dark enchantments to give them that ability - while seeming to ignore the concept of dungeons and skirmishes being programmed to be run by a party of players is what makes no sense to me.

    It's like someone trying to justify their actions by saying they will comply with aspects of the game they agree with, that benefits them personally - but reject other aspects of the game they don't agree with because they don't offer them any personal benefit, is what I don't understand. Of course everyone wants to maximize their personal enjoyment in the game, but to do so to the dissatisfaction and impediment of many other players - particularly new players - bodes ill for much of the game community.

    Obviously no player who ranked up their dark enchantments had to slow down or wait for other party members... that many didn't is why I suspect the movement speed for every player was nerfed in the upcoming Mod16 release.

    I myself am a veteran player and can enhance my movement speed when I choose to do so and when I'm in a party of players who also have enhanced movement speed - but if the kind of behavior that got the movement speed nerfed in the first place persists, that just might be the kind of behavior gets all enhancements to movement speed eliminated entirely...

    Obviously some players will be able to take a hint and play with a little more consideration for other members in their party - others maybe not so much.
    DD~
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    dionchi said:

    krumple01 said:

    dionchi said:

    For those who put in the time and effort to boost your speed, I sympathize with the feeling all of that time and effort has been wasted…

    But it goes without being said there is a group of speed runners who tend to regularly leave slower party members behind, run past mobs leaving slower less experienced players to deal with those mobs or even killing every thing they come across and leave little to nothing for slower players to do except follow behind and pick up random piles of stuff laying around - that is if the faster player(s) aren't berating the slower players for taking too long or not being able to keep up.

    I’m speculating this reason more than any other is why movement speeds were so seriously nerfed and for all of those to whom this type of behavior applies, you have no one to blame but yourselves as far as I'm concerned.

    As has already been mentioned it is frustrating and disheartening for slower players to have to slog through mobs left behind and nearly as bad to go through a dungeon doing nothing picking up stuff along the way. Very few players to my personal knowledge consider something like that fun… so newbies especially are more likely to just give up on the game instead of staying to play. That’s not good for the survivability of the game nor the game economy when new players become so disenchanted they just quit.

    Few new or slow moving players have the ability to increase their movement speed to keep up with the fastest – every fast moving player has the ability to slow down or wait for the rest of the party, if it looks like one or more members of the party are struggling to keep up.

    I believe that since some players haven’t done so voluntarily it forced the developer’s hand to come up with some kind of solution – like eliminating or seriously nerfing max movement speed.

    Those who blame slower players or the developers for this change can cry about it all they want, but the rest of us know who's really to blame and it's not the slower players or the developers.

    My2¢

    The thing is your whole argument makes no sense.

    Okay so they program the ability to stack dark enchants that give movement speed in utility slots. What is the alternative? Nothing great, experience bonus? Nah when you already make plenty of experience. Gold gains? Don't really care that much since you can make plenty of gold.

    I think it is absurd that you suggest a "fast" character should spend time ranking up an enchant only to negate it by waiting up for a character that doesn't have the speed. Really? Then what is the point in upgrading the enchantment? Nothing. The game provided a hoop, and players jumped through that hoop, they earned, paid or grinded out for that speed, they should be able to use it.

    New players are the ones crying so they should follow the same path everyone else took. Grind up those darks, feed in your AD and one day, you will be able to keep up. Until then you can cry all you want about fast players leaving you behind.

    So no this whole thing is the fault of new players whining and complaining that they can't keep up with veteran players.

    Actually even after I said all that, I really don't care about the speed change to be honest. The darks can be traded/exchanged for enchantments in mod 16 that you want. Although those Darks are still worth something.

    Speed isn't entirely gone. Dex score and one feat and one boon allow for stacking increased movement speed. So technically they didn't get rid of the problem you propose. It's still in mod 16 yet actually harder for new players to obtain where as when it was in Darks at least they could get it rather easily. Now its much harder. So this will set those with dex, feat and boon apart from the "newbs".

    Just because you can rob a bank, doesn't mean you should rob a bank...

    Of course the dark enchantments are able to increase the movement speed of those who have them slotted - but dungeons and skirmishes were also designed to be run by a party, not as a solo event...

    To say a player should be able to move faster than anyone else in the party because the game programmed dark enchantments to give them that ability - while seeming to ignore the concept of dungeons and skirmishes being programmed to be run by a party of players is what makes no sense to me.

    It's like someone trying to justify their actions by saying they will comply with aspects of the game they agree with, that benefits them personally - but reject other aspects of the game they don't agree with because they don't offer them any personal benefit, is what I don't understand. Of course everyone wants to maximize their personal enjoyment in the game, but to do so to the dissatisfaction and impediment of many other players - particularly new players - bodes ill for much of the game community.

    Obviously no player who ranked up their dark enchantments had to slow down or wait for other party members... that many didn't is why I suspect the movement speed for every player was nerfed in the upcoming Mod16 release.

    I myself am a veteran player and can enhance my movement speed when I choose to do so and when I'm in a party of players who also have enhanced movement speed - but if the kind of behavior that got the movement speed nerfed in the first place persists, that just might be the kind of behavior gets all enhancements to movement speed eliminated entirely...

    Obviously some players will be able to take a hint and play with a little more consideration for other members in their party - others maybe not so much.
    well you cherry picked a stupid argument here. nvw 1.0 is dead. nvw 2.0 which is a completely different game where the names were not changed to protect the innocent is coming in 10 days and it is built by the brain dead for the brain dead. In all likely hood they couldn't design and program an effective movement solution so they removed it completely.
  • havlockehavlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    dionchi said:

    For those who put in the time and effort to boost your speed, I sympathize with the feeling all of that time and effort has been wasted…

    But it goes without being said there is a group of speed runners who tend to regularly leave slower party members behind, run past mobs leaving slower less experienced players to deal with those mobs or even killing every thing they come across and leave little to nothing for slower players to do except follow behind and pick up random piles of stuff laying around - that is if the faster player(s) aren't berating the slower players for taking too long or not being able to keep up.

    I’m speculating this reason more than any other is why movement speeds were so seriously nerfed and for all of those to whom this type of behavior applies, you have no one to blame but yourselves as far as I'm concerned.

    As has already been mentioned it is frustrating and disheartening for slower players to have to slog through mobs left behind and nearly as bad to go through a dungeon doing nothing picking up stuff along the way. Very few players to my personal knowledge consider something like that fun… so newbies especially are more likely to just give up on the game instead of staying to play. That’s not good for the survivability of the game nor the game economy when new players become so disenchanted they just quit.

    Few new or slow moving players have the ability to increase their movement speed to keep up with the fastest – every fast moving player has the ability to slow down or wait for the rest of the party, if it looks like one or more members of the party are struggling to keep up.

    I believe that since some players haven’t done so voluntarily it forced the developer’s hand to come up with some kind of solution – like eliminating or seriously nerfing max movement speed.

    Those who blame slower players or the developers for this change can cry about it all they want, but the rest of us know who's really to blame and it's not the slower players or the developers.

    My2¢

    Don't agree with everything you've said over the last few months, but I agree 100% in everything you've said in the above.
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    dionchi said:

    Just because you can rob a bank, doesn't mean you should rob a bank...

    Of course the dark enchantments are able to increase the movement speed of those who have them slotted - but dungeons and skirmishes were also designed to be run by a party, not as a solo event...

    To say a player should be able to move faster than anyone else in the party because the game programmed dark enchantments to give them that ability - while seeming to ignore the concept of dungeons and skirmishes being programmed to be run by a party of players is what makes no sense to me.

    It's like someone trying to justify their actions by saying they will comply with aspects of the game they agree with, that benefits them personally - but reject other aspects of the game they don't agree with because they don't offer them any personal benefit, is what I don't understand. Of course everyone wants to maximize their personal enjoyment in the game, but to do so to the dissatisfaction and impediment of many other players - particularly new players - bodes ill for much of the game community.

    Obviously no player who ranked up their dark enchantments had to slow down or wait for other party members... that many didn't is why I suspect the movement speed for every player was nerfed in the upcoming Mod16 release.

    I myself am a veteran player and can enhance my movement speed when I choose to do so and when I'm in a party of players who also have enhanced movement speed - but if the kind of behavior that got the movement speed nerfed in the first place persists, that just might be the kind of behavior gets all enhancements to movement speed eliminated entirely...

    Obviously some players will be able to take a hint and play with a little more consideration for other members in their party - others maybe not so much.

    Here is the thing. Sure dungeons are meant for party but if 1 player in the party can handle everything, rush ahead and kill everything, what difference does it make?

    You are basically arguing that even though someone can solo the dungeon they should wait for you to do your 2 points of dmg. Because chances are if you don't have the darks to keep up, you probably don't have anything else either to keep up with damage.

    So how about his, why not nerf the veteran damage too? Make it so everyone in the party is reduced to the lowest noob in the group?

    This is how silly your argument becomes. Just because they have spent time on darks doesn't mean they should use those darks.

  • chidionchidion Member Posts: 410 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    -Deleted-
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    krumple01 said:


    You are basically arguing that even though someone can solo the dungeon they should wait for you to do your 2 points of dmg. Because chances are if you don't have the darks to keep up, you probably don't have anything else either to keep up with damage.

    Lol, if you want to solo a dungeon, you can always do private queue.
    However, the problems described are those of random queues.
    Random queues are run for the extra AD (for the run itself, not from the chest).
    The question is, what do you get the extra AD for?
    Obviously not for being able to solo the dungeon. Mmh? Because for that you can use private queue, and there you do not get any extra AD, right ?!

    The entire RQ system is designed to help people that cannot solo a dungeon to find a party.
    You might not like it, you might think you "earn" the AD much more than the newbs that run the RQ with you.
    But the point is, you only get the extra AD if you are willing to run content someone else queued for.
    So RQs are - like it or not - a group thing.
    You get the extra AD for helping (not so well equipped, slower, weaker, ...) players to run the content.
    If you want as few of the slower players as possible, you can queue up with your friends and run RQ.
    But if you dont queue up with friends, you are thrown into a dungeon with a bunch of randoms, and very likely randoms that cannot solo the content, cannot run fast, etc.

    So, having established that there is a reason for the extra AD, how much sense does it make to rush ahead of the random group you are supposed to help? I run RQs too, and if all can run the content fast, that is just fine. But more often than not some players lag behind. There are three ways to deal with this:
    - you dont care at all, run ahead, kill the minimum nr of mobs and let the slower players struggle on their own and die. You wait for them at the final boss, and you usually wait much longer than if you had cleared all mobs, or had waited for them. But at least you wait at the last boss.
    - you dont care, same as before. But at the last boss you kick the slower player, because you don't care to wait for another minute. Shame on you. I have seen this happening (not to me, I am fast and strong enough).
    - you care for your random party, because this is what you actually signed up to and this is for which you get the extra AD. You wait for them. You show them the way if they become lost. And this is actually the fasted way to get to the end boss, because the players in your care wont die, wont get lost and all have more fun.

    Yeah, you can bash your head on the floor and cry out loud that you deserve the extra AD more than anyone else in the party, because you can move faster and solo the dungeon. But the intent of the game designers has - rather obviously - not been to give you the extra AD for your big HAMSTER. The intent of RQs is to help people to do group content, independent of the fact if one or more can solo the dungeon or run faster than all others. If you rush ahead, you are rather obviously not playing the game as intended. You can do so, its within the rules. As someone else said some time ago, there is no rule against farting in an elevator. You can HAMSTER, but it is frowned upon by the other people in the elevator.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,226 Arc User
    There are limits to the tweaking a player can do to their character in D&D. And the GM can always say "no".

    Guess what, the GM is saying no.

    If you're in a party, act like it. There is no "I" in team, but there is one in the A-hole.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,834 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    There are limits to the tweaking a player can do to their character in D&D. And the GM can always say "no".

    Guess what, the GM is saying no.

    If you're in a party, act like it. There is no "I" in team, but there is one in the A-hole.

    Wait! There is an 'i' in A-hole?
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,226 Arc User
    And a fat one, at that.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    edited April 2019


    Lol, if you want to solo a dungeon, you can always do private queue.
    However, the problems described are those of random queues.
    Random queues are run for the extra AD (for the run itself, not from the chest).
    The question is, what do you get the extra AD for?
    Obviously not for being able to solo the dungeon. Mmh? Because for that you can use private queue, and there you do not get any extra AD, right ?!

    Well see that's where your argument fails once again. The thing is you cant solo queue for randoms. If you could, I bet they would.

    To be honest what they should have done was make tiers for each dungeon. So tier one would be for the newbs that barely have the Item level requirement for the dungeon. The rewards suck and then all the slow newbs can run together. Then two more tiers that get harder but require higher item level to qualify for and you also have to at least ran one of the previous tiers first. You can't just jump straight into tier three. So in this way if you are running tier three and are crying about not being able to keep up then maybe you shouldn't be queuing for tier three.

  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 904 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    krumple01 said:

    Here is the thing. Sure dungeons are meant for party but if 1 player in the party can handle everything, rush ahead and kill everything, what difference does it make?

    You are basically arguing that even though someone can solo the dungeon they should wait for you to do your 2 points of dmg. Because chances are if you don't have the darks to keep up, you probably don't have anything else either to keep up with damage.

    So how about his, why not nerf the veteran damage too? Make it so everyone in the party is reduced to the lowest noob in the group?

    This is how silly your argument becomes. Just because they have spent time on darks doesn't mean they should use those darks.

    The difference being if a member of the party runs ahead and attempts to solo an event created for a party, often they are abandoning those slower and less experienced members of their party…

    Aside from not allowing other members of the party to participate, even if it is only their “2 points worth of damage”, it also keeps those other party members a better sense of what they may face in those runs at a later date – something that simply following along and picking up stuff scattered about does not give. Something else, maybe not known to all those who run ahead is if the time between the fastest player passing and the slowest player arriving where mobs have been done away with is sufficient, sometimes many drops simply disappear and there isn’t even anything left to pick up.

    There’s the difference… so in addition to possibly denying new or slower party members a proper experience, one that will help them become better players later on in those instances, speed runners may also be denying slower players the opportunity to even pick up drops they would find useful to improving their character…

    Now the obvious - a speed runner soloing a dungeon is not going to arrive at the last battle any more quickly since they will have to wait for the entire party to arrive anyway so it makes even less sense for them to run ahead from that perspective.

    As silly as you may think It sounds, why do you think there was an intentional nerf of player movement speed? I still tend to think the movement speed was nerfed because of the actions of a few who were perceived of as abusing their movement enhancements to the point of making the event less enjoyable for lower level and new players of their party and it may be that some future reduction of other attributes like damage, could be forthcoming if it is perceived those other factors seem to be a problem.

    I highly doubt the developers decided to nerf movement speed on a lark. Something must have occurred to even get them to consider something like that and reading back over several years worth of forum posts and new player complaints perhaps what you tend to think of as “silly” should instead be considered a wake-up call… Players can either choose to voluntarily regulate themselves in consideration of other members in their party when needed, or just as was done with the movement speed it’s possible the developers will find a way to impose regulations on everybody in an attempt to address those complaints.

    What’s done is done, I seriously doubt anyone will consider rolling back the changes to movement speed to allow those who have been abandoning the other members of their party to continue to do so even if all of the time and effort expended to stack dark enchantments has now been, for all practical purposes negated… what should be of a concern now is what future negations are players likely to face if new players especially tend to think their experience as being vexatious by some few who continue to attempt to exclude them.
    DD~
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    dionchi said:

    krumple01 said:

    Here is the thing. Sure dungeons are meant for party but if 1 player in the party can handle everything, rush ahead and kill everything, what difference does it make?

    You are basically arguing that even though someone can solo the dungeon they should wait for you to do your 2 points of dmg. Because chances are if you don't have the darks to keep up, you probably don't have anything else either to keep up with damage.

    So how about his, why not nerf the veteran damage too? Make it so everyone in the party is reduced to the lowest noob in the group?

    This is how silly your argument becomes. Just because they have spent time on darks doesn't mean they should use those darks.

    The difference being if a member of the party runs ahead and attempts to solo an event created for a party, often they are abandoning those slower and less experienced members of their party…

    Aside from not allowing other members of the party to participate, even if it is only their “2 points worth of damage”, it also keeps those other party members a better sense of what they may face in those runs at a later date – something that simply following along and picking up stuff scattered about does not give. Something else, maybe not known to all those who run ahead is if the time between the fastest player passing and the slowest player arriving where mobs have been done away with is sufficient, sometimes many drops simply disappear and there isn’t even anything left to pick up.

    There’s the difference… so in addition to possibly denying new or slower party members a proper experience, one that will help them become better players later on in those instances speed runners may also be denying them the opportunity to pick up drops they would find useful to improving their character… A speed runner soloing a dungeon is not going to arrive at the last battle any more quickly since they will have to wait for the entire party to arrive anyway so it makes even less sense in that perspective.

    As silly as you may think It sounds, why do you think there was an intentional nerf of player movement speed? I still tend to think the movement speed was nerfed because of the actions of a few who were perceived of as abusing their movement enhancements to the point of making the event less enjoyable for lower level and new players of their party and it may be that some future reduction of other attributes like damage, could be forthcoming if it is perceived those other factors seem to be a problem.

    I highly doubt the developers decided to nerf movement speed on a lark. Something must have occurred to even get them to consider something like that and reading back over several years worth of forum posts and new player complaints perhaps what you tend to think of as “silly” should instead be considered a wake-up call… Players can either choose to voluntarily regulate themselves in consideration of other members in their party when needed, or just as was done with the movement speed it’s possible the developers will find a way to impose regulations on everybody in an attempt to address those complaints.

    What’s done is done, I seriously doubt anyone will consider rolling back the changes to movement speed to allow those who have been abandoning the other members of their party to continue to do so even if all of the time and effort expended to stack dark enchantments has now been, for all practical purposes negated… what should be of a concern now is what future negations are players likely to face if new players especially tend to think their experience as being vexatious by some few who continue to attempt to exclude them.
    But there is more than just this. Sure speed change will keep the party together but then I see a lot of new players who don't know the mechanics, are trying to learn the mechanics during the run instead of doing some research on the dungeon before hand. This happens a lot more than just a few times here and there. They don't even care to mention that they are new, or ask for some advice on a boss fight. They just pretend as if everything is fine and try to behave as if they know what to do. In some cases this lack of experience gets the entire party wiped. When they could have prevented it had they taken some time to do their research. There are a million youtube videos on every dungeon so there is no excuse as to not know a dungeon. This learning as you go mentality gets parties wiped or even worse wastes their res scrolls.

    The aspect is, some new players are lazy, they would rather complain for nerfing veterans rather than go through the same path all the veterans took to get what they have. Its actually a slap in the face to all those who put in the work to get their enchants ranked, to just have a newby come in and complain that they are too slow to keep up so we should punish those who put in the work so they can contribute their 2 points of damage.

  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,226 Arc User
    I've never learned anything about a game by watching a video of someone else playing. I learned by doing.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    greywynd said:

    I've never learned anything about a game by watching a video of someone else playing. I learned by doing.

    Yeah I can imagine how many parties you let down or destroyed while you were "learning" the dungeon mechanics. Thanks for having everyone else in the party in mind.

  • havlockehavlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    krumple01 said:

    greywynd said:

    I've never learned anything about a game by watching a video of someone else playing. I learned by doing.

    Yeah I can imagine how many parties you let down or destroyed while you were "learning" the dungeon mechanics. Thanks for having everyone else in the party in mind.

    You can't have it both ways. First you are advocating people can just run ahead and do whatever they like because they have the speed and they can. Now you are saying everybody has to learn how to do the dungeon and read up on it beforehand. Now, obviously I'm putting words into your mouth but this is essentially what you are coming across to me. You can't accuse people of letting down the party by not reading up on it and then give a free pass to people with speed to run ahead from said party can you?

  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    havlocke said:

    You can't have it both ways. First you are advocating people can just run ahead and do whatever they like because they have the speed and they can. Now you are saying everybody has to learn how to do the dungeon and read up on it beforehand. Now, obviously I'm putting words into your mouth but this is essentially what you are coming across to me. You can't accuse people of letting down the party by not reading up on it and then give a free pass to people with speed to run ahead from said party can you?

    How are those two things exclusive?

    The thing is about players complaining about speed are the ones who haven't put in the time or spent the AD to get them. So they would rather complain.

    Its okay that a player is new to a dungeon but most of them never say anything about being new. Its very rare that they will tell anyone.

    So how would these two be exclusive? They are both pointing to a new player who would rather complain because they are lazy and lazy because they don't want to do simple research on a dungeon before HAMSTER over the party while they attempt to learn the mechanics.

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