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Method behind the madness of enchants in mod 16

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  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,184 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    greywynd said:

    I find it ironic that some individuals have no problem jumping into a random and ruining the run for others, but how dare someone queue for a dungeon or skirmish and ruin the run for them because the other person is still learning.

    That is why I keep on saying RQ does not work.
    There is one group who wants to learn and wants to experience. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone needs to learn from somewhere ....
    There is one group who wants to earn rAD as soon as possible. Nothing wrong with that. Life is busy, limited play time, ...

    These 2 group have problem to compromise each other.
    Then, there is a 3rd group who does not care either way. However, in a party of 5, he will have to make a stand to choose side.
    And, no matter what he does, he will have a chance to upset somebody.
    You only need one member not in sync (not necessary his fault or anyone's fault) to mess up the vibe.
    That is why I try my best to avoid public queue.
    Post edited by plasticbat on
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 253 Arc User
    krumple01 said:



    Well it really shouldn't be up to the veterans to ask. However; I have asked several times in party if there were any new players or inexperienced. Most of the time I get no response even though I am 100% certain there is. I have had a lot of experiences in many different scenarios. Just one example happened a few weeks back where I was in Tong. We managed to get to the end boss but I had my suspicion that the tank OP was not pulling his weight. I asked the question if he was new. His response was, we should replace the DC (me). I said in party chat after that, okay fine ill leave and take the penalty but I know my replacement DC will say the same thing.

    The other three party members didn't want me to leave. But I left anyways because I knew the OP was actually the weak link but he didnt want to admit it. About five or ten minutes after I left the Wizzy in the party sends me a tell saying the replacement DC rage quit the party saying the OP sucked. I don't know if that really happened, I was only going off what the wizard told me. I apologized again for leaving but I knew and wanted to make the point at my own expense. After spending the time to get to the boss then outted by a new player who knew he was the weak point, but instead wanted to blame someone else.

    I certainly do not agree with everything you say, but this I can understand. We really should not be talking about "newbs" and "veterans" in an abstract sense, assuming that every member of the group acts in the same way. We should be talking about good and bad experiences.

    I generally agree that it should be up to the new players to announce that they require some help. This is what I did when I was new (or inexperienced) and in practically all cases was fairly treated. I sometimes had to offer to leave (or have the group kick me, avoiding the leaver penalty) in the rare instances where it became obvious that I was not (yet) up to the challenge. The only exception has been the random leveling queue (RLQ). When it became introduced, I was a fresh level 20 character and was thrown into cloak tower. My announcement "this is my first run and I might need some help" was met with utter silence. The two level 70s vets just ran ahead and did not even care to clear all the mobs. Although I was struggling to keep up to them with the best of my abilities, I was left behind, could not (always) outrun the mobs, and my only choice was to try to keep up (possibly dying) or fight the mobs alone (taking very long). Whenever I took the first choice and was teleported to the last rez, the two vets berated me for slowing them down. Whenever I took the second choice, the vitriol increased. At least they waited at the last boss and did not kick me.

    I understand that you were not happy with your experience in TONG. I think you did everything right. The problem was not just inexperience, the problem was failure to admit one's one inexperience. This type of failure is usually correlated with the failure of not being able to listen to (or act to) any advice given. So yes, in such a situation there are only three option: Try against all odds, kick the inexperienced player, leave by yourself. It speaks for you, that you did not kick the guy, despite the fact that he attempted to redirect the blame to you. I had similar experiences, usually bad tanks not knowing their class nor the mechanics of the instance and then blaming the healer for their own inadequacies. For these guys there is always someone else to blame, and the perfect victim is the healer.

    However, I would like to relate two experiences of my own, which could give a fresh perspective on the problem of "new players not pulling their weight" - for whatever reason. Of course, these two experiences differ in a major point from yours: The inexperienced players in my two experiences actually admitted that they were - in fact - inexperienced and were willing to take advice.

    Both experiences are from CN runs via Random Intermediate Queue. CN seems to be the only instance in the Random Intermediate queue (RIQ) where tanking is actually meaningful, at least for groups with low IL. In both runs I was queuing as an OP healer (not the best healer out there, but able to keep the party alive, provided the tank could hold aggro in the Orcus fight - the other two bosses don't really require a tank). My IL was not good (around 10.5 k), but for devo healing and bane buffing the low IL suffices. Furthermore, I had a soulforged enchant in my armor as an emergency measure. At the time I could not OP tank (at least I did not try and with my low IL and leaving the group with no healer at all it would probably have not been a good idea).

    First run I was thrown into CN with a mixed group of rather low IL. Three dps less than 12k and a GF tank with 10.5k. It became obvious that the tank had not run the instance at all, nor was he able to consistently hold aggro on the two bosses before Orcus. I asked him if he could tank. He admitted, it was his first run as a tank and that he did not know if he could do it. We managed to get to Orcus with just a couple of deaths (most from the death spheres just before the last rez). We went into the Orcus fight and died rather quickly, because the dps decided to join ranks with the tank, facing Orcus at his front side. The dps died rather quickly. The tank managed to stay alive a little longer. Furthermore, with all dps dead it was clear that it would take hours. So I explained that the tank should go in first and establish aggro, the dps should always stand behind Orcus and I would focus my (not great) healing mostly on the tank (who obviously lacked self-heals and often failed to block). The second attempt went better than the first, but the tank could not hold aggro and we wiped, as was to be expected with the low IL and low HP we had. We all decided to have a third final try, although all of us were rather sure that we would not be able to finish. I went into full healing and debuff spec, the tank looked once again at his aggro and survival skills. The dps did their usual thing at Orcus' back. It went much better, the tank was able to survive with a lot of focus healing, he mostly held aggro, but progress was slow because we were lacking dps. Eventually we died to the third round of death spheres, when the boss was at ~50% health, because I made a mistake. We decided to stick to our original decision (last attempt) and disbanded, so from an AD grinding perspective we all completely wasted our time. Still, it was one of the best experiences I had: There was a nearly unsurmountable challenge (random group of low IL and inexperienced players), we connected with each other and talked, we faced the challenge knowing there was a small chance of succeeding, we failed. But we failed together and at the end everyone thanked everyone for the nice experience, for helping each other at the best of our abilities and for having fun together as a group - even at failing.

    My second experience was similar. We also were a group thrown into CN with three dps in the range between 10-12k and a GF tank. At the first boss it become clear, that the tank was struggling to hold aggro. So I asked, if he could tank Orcus, because I could not (nor could the dps). He said, he did not know. So we decided to give it a try. And yo and behold, at the second boss the tank could hold aggro on his own. This was a clear improvement over the first boss, so I expressed my confidence that - given the smoothness of the second boss fight - he should be able to tank Orcus as well. We struggled a bit at the death spheres, because not all knew the safe spots. But the Orcus fight itself went well. The tank was able to hold aggro all the time, he had enough self-heals so that I could concentrate on buffs and debuffs and the occasional nuisance, when Orcus decided to summon the death spheres. It took a rather long time to whittle Orcus down. But we eventually succeeded. Again, all players were happy having experienced the tank's and their own progress. It was a run I still remember fondly. Yes, it took much longer than the usual CN runs with two or three 15k+ dps, an OP tank and a devo healer/buffer hammering down the bosses in no time. But frankly - these speed runs are appreciated from the point of view of having "earned" a lot of rAD quickly. But I do not tend to remember them. They are fast, but also very boring, very repetitive, without any challenge and no communication - except maybe a "gg" just after the final boss goes down.




  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 337 Arc User
    dionchi said:


    Actually, not to argue the point but I happen to think new players - and the revenue they are likely to bring to the game is a more precious commodity than time because without it any game is likely to decline and eventually die and it’s hard to keep new players if their gaming experience is unsatisfactory because of the way they are being treated by some 'veteran' players who lack the “time” or desire to make the experience of new players as enjoyable and edifying as possible…

    Yeah we can all play in a self-serving manner, caring for no other player’s experience than our own, that is until the game eventually dies because of the lack of new players and new money – or we can try to be as helpful as possible to new and lesser experienced players and see the game survive and possibly thrive, so we can continue to enjoy it in whatever time we have available.

    I think just about every player, even the younger ones are aware of real life responsibilities and how they effect enjoying recreational gaming time. To try to imply that one must accomplish something in a recreational game because of real life time limits to me indicates either bad planning or emphasis on the wrong priorities…

    People play (or should play) Neverwinter to have fun, to enjoy themselves in the time allotted between real life responsibilities. To try to claim one must complete something in the game quickly do to RL time constraints isn’t playing a game for enjoyment, it’s a part time job which usually turns out to be neither fun nor entertaining... not for that player nor the people who have to put up with that player’s attitude.

    I see many of the changes coming in Mod16 as an attempt to attract and hopefully retain new players and if some veteran players decide to leave the game as a result, well chances are they’ve probably already made their financial contribution to the game and are now just trying to skate by using the tips and tricks they’ve learned so they don’t have to financially support the game with real world currency… not a loss I figure many at Cryptic will miss or an attitude many new players are likely to worry about.

    Most players will stay or leave Neverwinter based on how much enjoyment the get from the game – not how much profit they can accumulate, and in my mind that’s just the way it should be.

    How did we get from arguing on personal time being important for players and needing to be respected to this diatribe on how new players are more important than veteran players and that the new players bring more to the game than the veterans?
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 53k : Siren (TR): 52k : Torun (DC): 49k : Siren OP (OP): 52k : Siren SW (SW): 50k : Modern (F): 42k : Cherry1 (CW) : 42k Siren HR (HR): 50k
  • grogthemagnifgrogthemagnif Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,599 Arc User

    greywynd said:

    I find it ironic that some individuals have no problem jumping into a random and ruining the run for others, but how dare someone queue for a dungeon or skirmish and ruin the run for them because the other person is still learning.

    That is why I keep on saying RQ does not work.
    There is one group who wants to learn and wants to experience. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone needs to learn from somewhere ....
    There is one group who wants to earn rAD as soon as possible. Nothing wrong with that. Life is busy, limited play time, ...

    These 2 group have problem to compromise each other.
    Then, there is a 3rd group who does not care either way. However, in a party of 5, he will have to make a stand to choose side.
    And, no matter what he does, he will have a chance to upset somebody.
    You only need one member not in sync (not necessary his fault or anyone's fault) to mess up the vibe.
    That is why I try my best to avoid public queue.
    Too bad there isn't a vote at the beginning of the Random on the choices:
    • Speed Run
    • Experience
    • Either
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,184 Arc User

    greywynd said:

    I find it ironic that some individuals have no problem jumping into a random and ruining the run for others, but how dare someone queue for a dungeon or skirmish and ruin the run for them because the other person is still learning.

    That is why I keep on saying RQ does not work.
    There is one group who wants to learn and wants to experience. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone needs to learn from somewhere ....
    There is one group who wants to earn rAD as soon as possible. Nothing wrong with that. Life is busy, limited play time, ...

    These 2 group have problem to compromise each other.
    Then, there is a 3rd group who does not care either way. However, in a party of 5, he will have to make a stand to choose side.
    And, no matter what he does, he will have a chance to upset somebody.
    You only need one member not in sync (not necessary his fault or anyone's fault) to mess up the vibe.
    That is why I try my best to avoid public queue.
    Too bad there isn't a vote at the beginning of the Random on the choices:
    • Speed Run
    • Experience
    • Either
    Vote does not help. Otherwise, there would be not as many 'cough, cough' complaining in IG.
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 888 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    How did we get from arguing on personal time being important for players and needing to be respected to this diatribe on how new players are more important than veteran players and that the new players bring more to the game than the veterans?

    Time is the biggest commodity in any game....
    -snip-

    dionchi said:

    Actually, not to argue the point but I happen to think new players - and the revenue they are likely to bring to the game is a more precious commodity than time...
    -snip-

    That's how...

    dionchi said:


    Actually, not to argue the point but I happen to think new players - and the revenue they are likely to bring to the game is a more precious commodity than time because without it any game is likely to decline and eventually die and it’s hard to keep new players if their gaming experience is unsatisfactory because of the way they are being treated by some 'veteran' players who lack the “time” or desire to make the experience of new players as enjoyable and edifying as possible…

    Yeah we can all play in a self-serving manner, caring for no other player’s experience than our own, that is until the game eventually dies because of the lack of new players and new money – or we can try to be as helpful as possible to new and lesser experienced players and see the game survive and possibly thrive, so we can continue to enjoy it in whatever time we have available.

    I think just about every player, even the younger ones are aware of real life responsibilities and how they effect enjoying recreational gaming time. To try to imply that one must accomplish something in a recreational game because of real life time limits to me indicates either bad planning or emphasis on the wrong priorities…

    People play (or should play) Neverwinter to have fun, to enjoy themselves in the time allotted between real life responsibilities. To try to claim one must complete something in the game quickly do to RL time constraints isn’t playing a game for enjoyment, it’s a part time job which usually turns out to be neither fun nor entertaining... not for that player nor the people who have to put up with that player’s attitude.

    I see many of the changes coming in Mod16 as an attempt to attract and hopefully retain new players and if some veteran players decide to leave the game as a result, well chances are they’ve probably already made their financial contribution to the game and are now just trying to skate by using the tips and tricks they’ve learned so they don’t have to financially support the game with real world currency… not a loss I figure many at Cryptic will miss or an attitude many new players are likely to worry about.

    Most players will stay or leave Neverwinter based on how much enjoyment the get from the game – not how much profit they can accumulate, and in my mind that’s just the way it should be.

    How did we get from arguing on personal time being important for players and needing to be respected to this diatribe on how new players are more important than veteran players and that the new players bring more to the game than the veterans?
    I thought the progression was pretty simple to follow...

    One person offers their opinion that "time", which allow the player to earn in game currency for themselves is the biggest commodity in Neverwinter and another person offers the opinion that "new players" and the financial contribution they are likely to bring to support the game as a whole would be a more precious commodity than an individual player's "time".

    One aspect helps the individual player progress and accumulate wealth for themselves, possibly to the detriment of the financial wellbeing of the game as a whole – the other helps the financial well being of the game as a whole with little or no impact to an individual’s progress in their attempt to accumulate more financial wealth for themselves… as a matter of fact RL revenue brought into the game by whatever source, but most likely by new players is more likely ensure the game’s survival which allows the veteran player to continue to accumulate their personal wealth.

    All players newbies and veterans need to be respected… of course this doesn’t mean that any one group should have precedence over another group and certainly not solely based on how long they’ve been playing.

    While I never directly stated: "new players being more than important or bring more to the game than veteran players", I think it is a widely accepted new players who lack in game wealth to purchase things they want to improve their gaming experience, are more likely to spend RL currency to purchase those items, where as veterans who for the most part already have characters with better stats and add-ons to characters are usually able to acquire the things they want without spending so much RL currency.

    As I said I thought my line of thought and reasoning was pretty easy to follow, but clearly I was in error.

    And the point in my conclusion still stands… Those players who’s primary agenda is to accumulate as much in game personal wealth for themselves as possible, may not find it so easy to do so after Mod16 and be more inclined to leave – whereas players like myself and hopefully a lot of new players who find playing Neverwinter enjoyable and aren’t primarily concerned about quickly accumulating a lot of in game wealth, will likely stay and financially support the game…
    dionchi said:

    …and in my mind that’s just the way it should be.

    DD~
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 888 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    greywynd said:

    I find it ironic that some individuals have no problem jumping into a random and ruining the run for others, but how dare someone queue for a dungeon or skirmish and ruin the run for them because the other person is still learning.

    That is why I keep on saying RQ does not work.
    There is one group who wants to learn and wants to experience. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone needs to learn from somewhere ....
    There is one group who wants to earn rAD as soon as possible. Nothing wrong with that. Life is busy, limited play time, ...

    These 2 group have problem to compromise each other.
    Then, there is a 3rd group who does not care either way. However, in a party of 5, he will have to make a stand to choose side.
    And, no matter what he does, he will have a chance to upset somebody.
    You only need one member not in sync (not necessary his fault or anyone's fault) to mess up the vibe.
    That is why I try my best to avoid public queue.
    Too bad there isn't a vote at the beginning of the Random on the choices:
    • Speed Run
    • Experience
    • Either
    That option is already available... In Zone chat I see people all the time "Looking for a Group" for various runs, asking for party members with specific stats to join their party

    I suspect the only reason why more players aren't using Chat for: "LFG-players for fast RLQ run" or "LFG-RIQ, Experienced players only" and queuing "private" instead of "public" is because something like that tends take a little longer than simply hitting the "Join random leveling" or "Join random intermediate" public queue button.
    That is why I keep on saying RQ does not work.
    There is one group who wants to learn and wants to experience. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone needs to learn from somewhere ....
    There is one group who wants to earn rAD as soon as possible. Nothing wrong with that. Life is busy, limited play time, ...

    These 2 group have problem to compromise each other.
    Then, there is a 3rd group who does not care either way. However, in a party of 5, he will have to make a stand to choose side.
    And, no matter what he does, he will have a chance to upset somebody.
    You only need one member not in sync (not necessary his fault or anyone's fault) to mess up the vibe.
    That is why I try my best to avoid public queue.

    @plasticbat for the most part I'm of the opinion that RQ's for the most part do work as they were intended...

    That being tossing players of different skill levels and experience into the same dungeon makes those queues "pop" faster and so higher level, more experienced players will be able to show lower level and less experienced players how to better play their characters in a group or party environment, which would work better if some higher level players didn't run off and abandon the rest of the party leaving them to fend for themselves.

    With the release of Mod16, player movement speed has been nerfed but RQ’s will still pop faster and with the reduction of player speed, the number of players who have been inclined to run off and abandon the rest of their party will hopefully be reduced so more high level player will be staying in closer proximity to the rest of the party.

    Seems to me with the release of Mod16, not only will RQ’s still “work”… but hopefully work even better than they did before.

    My2¢
    DD~
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 337 Arc User
    Neither part of the two were connected. You just ranted on it because you picked parts of what I said in a paragraph. I should have seperated the thoughts into seperate paragraphs so part of it is my fault.

    Sorry that I apparently struck a nerve with you and that you dislike veteran players so much.

    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 53k : Siren (TR): 52k : Torun (DC): 49k : Siren OP (OP): 52k : Siren SW (SW): 50k : Modern (F): 42k : Cherry1 (CW) : 42k Siren HR (HR): 50k
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