Method behind the madness of enchants in mod 16

bobo

What is the method behind the madness of the new enchant stats in mod 16 preview? Assuming these go live, why nerf dark enchant utility stat from movement? On console I have a pally with 82xx movement(+20.6 % move speed) and he's still lags behind in groups a ton. It now looks like in preview that if I want to move faster I need to spend what few ability points I get from leveling on dex to run faster. Is it possible to leave the enchant stats alone, and add the new stats that need adding for the new stats. I have a ton invested in dark enchants so I can at least attempt to keep up with the others in pugs, but now I'll never finish any q that takes more than 15mins as I'll get kicked for being too slow...

plasticbat

bobo#5090 said:

What is the method behind the madness of the new enchant stats in mod 16 preview? Assuming these go live, why nerf dark enchant utility stat from movement? On console I have a pally with 82xx movement(+20.6 % move speed) and he's still lags behind in groups a ton. It now looks like in preview that if I want to move faster I need to spend what few ability points I get from leveling on dex to run faster. Is it possible to leave the enchant stats alone, and add the new stats that need adding for the new stats. I have a ton invested in dark enchants so I can at least attempt to keep up with the others in pugs, but now I'll never finish any q that takes more than 15mins as I'll get kicked for being too slow...

Everybody will be slow. Everybody put Dark in their utility slot for their 'serious' loadout.

greywynd

No movement: no more speed runs through leveling dungeons.

ecrana

greywynd said:

No movement: no more speed runs through leveling dungeons.

This right here. Step one in making more challenging and involved content is apparently to artificially keep you in said content by making you much slower.

prethen

I'm hoping that mount speeds don't go the same route. If they do, when I'm forced to slog across an entire map each time to do daily quests, I'll just want to shoot myself.

greywynd

Hard to shoot yourself with a bow. You'll probably have to get a crossbow from one of the dwarves in the Valley.

Unknown

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havlocke

bobo#5090 said:

ecrana#2080 said:

greywynd said:

No movement: no more speed runs through leveling dungeons.

This right here. Step one in making more challenging and involved content is apparently to artificially keep you in said content by making you much slower.

That is going to suck huge donkey butt if this is the goal. My toon on preview is slower than molasses going uphill in alaska in january. Some dungeon runs take too long as it is, to slow them done further is stupid.

Depends on your point of view. From the point of view of a newbie, when you see so called Veterans run to the end of the dungeon while you are still halfway thru, this movement speed they have is discouraging. It discouraged one guy out of my group to just stop playing after the first month or so of this. Its not a race, you aren't on a timer.

dread4moor

> @havlocke said:
> No movement: no more speed runs through leveling dungeons.
>
> This right here. Step one in making more challenging and involved content is apparently to artificially keep you in said content by making you much slower.
>
> That is going to suck huge donkey butt if this is the goal. My toon on preview is slower than molasses going uphill in alaska in january. Some dungeon runs take too long as it is, to slow them done further is stupid.
>
>
> Depends on your point of view. From the point of view of a newbie, when you see so called Veterans run to the end of the dungeon while you are still halfway thru, this movement speed they have is discouraging. It discouraged one guy out of my group to just stop playing after the first month or so of this. Its not a race, you aren't on a timer.

To paraphrase the great George Carlin:
"The correct speed is my speed.
Anyone driving faster then me is a maniac.
Anyone driving slower then me is a nuisance."

It's all relative.
One person's slow noob is someone elses el33tist speedrunner.

The entire game is slowing down fir everyone in Mod 16... both combat action and running speed.

But I feel the OP's pain.
Spent years earning rank 14 darks in utility slots for 5 toons.
Ouch.
Hard to shrug that off.

sandukutupu

It may sound crazy, but I was never into mounts until they made the insignia and powers. I felt the maps were just too small to really find a mount useful and I walked everywhere. As time progressed in the game, I did get some blue and purple mounts. Each mount rank just seemed to have a passing gear in a car, it barely felt like an improvement. By the time I got to the Well of Dragons, I realized the only "real need" for a mount at that time, was to keep up with your group on a Dragon Run. Years went by. When Ravenloft started I did some small HE runs with friends who had their speed jacked. They left me in the dust, I was lucky to get a few dirty licks in at the last minute. Call me old fashioned, but I still don't see any need for speed on these tiny maps.

havlocke

sandukutupu said:

It may sound crazy, but I was never into mounts until they made the insignia and powers. I felt the maps were just too small to really find a mount useful and I walked everywhere. As time progressed in the game, I did get some blue and purple mounts. Each mount rank just seemed to have a passing gear in a car, it barely felt like an improvement. By the time I got to the Well of Dragons, I realized the only "real need" for a mount at that time, was to keep up with your group on a Dragon Run. Years went by. When Ravenloft started I did some small HE runs with friends who had their speed jacked. They left me in the dust, I was lucky to get a few dirty licks in at the last minute. Call me old fashioned, but I still don't see any need for speed on these tiny maps.

Same here. I don't see the need to run thru everything in a dungeon, ignoring everything and just kill the boss and leave. If you find running thru dungeons and the like tedious then this entire genre might not be right for you. DnD is about dungeon crawls and fighting mobs. Not speed racer.

Then again, I guess its the treadmill aspect of things. They have made it very monotonous to have to repeatedly do the same content again and again so I shouldn't begrudge the people who are running thru the content for possibly the hundredth time ...

I just realised, we don't have a sprint button in this game do we? Hmm, might be the only MMO I've seen w/o a sprint mode.

greywynd

I kitted by GF out for speed for one reason: it was fun. You run a dungeon and the GWFs sprint to get ahead. With the setup I have on my GF, I can make sure that no one is going to get hit alone by a mob we left, and I can still catch up to the GWF.

havlocke

But why the need to run ahead at all? The poor newbie behind you is still going to have to catch up to you before the purple circle allows you to proceed to the boss doesn't it? So you either all have speed or you are still limited by the speed of the slowest person.

greywynd

ITF boosts everyone except the GWF that ran ahead.

If the GWF starts a fight I can get there to help. If someone else aggros a mob and starts a fight, I can be there to help. If the GWF starts a fight and a mob hits the party, then the GWF is on their own.

It doesn't matter when the last person gets into the circle. What matters is that they do get to the circle.

Having fast movement also allows me to loot without having people complain about me lagging behind because of it.

dread4moor

For those not on preview, We are losing the ITF party speed buff in Mod16, btw.
The entire party is slower.

But this is a real problem for Fighter Tanks (Vanguard).
Foot speed was very useful for Mod15 GF. We fight to stay ahead of DPS in order to grab aggro.

In Mod 16 we are slower then ever before AND have lost all ranged taunts.
Fighters can only grab aggro by physically running across the room and hitting each and every single mob.
Without Movement stat enchant it is very hard to hold aggro on a large, spread-out group of mobs.

Dark-movement was not just a novelty. It was very useful for some of us.

greywynd

Yes, well, haven't checked on my GWF, but pretty sure they can still sprint ahead to start the fight and grab all the aggro.

ecrana

havlocke said:

Depends on your point of view. From the point of view of a newbie, when you see so called Veterans run to the end of the dungeon while you are still halfway thru, this movement speed they have is discouraging. It discouraged one guy out of my group to just stop playing after the first month or so of this. Its not a race, you aren't on a timer.

Movement speed has nothing to do with player behavior. While it's sad that poor newbs get left behind on random pug runs, that's going to happen with or without super speed if the elites have no interest in waiting for the newb, picking up the dead newb, etc etc. Some people just don't want to handhold people.

sandukutupu said:

It may sound crazy, but I was never into mounts until they made the insignia and powers. I felt the maps were just too small to really find a mount useful and I walked everywhere.

Yup, it sounds crazy

havlocke said:

I just realised, we don't have a sprint button in this game do we? Hmm, might be the only MMO I've seen w/o a sprint mode.

No sprint unless you're a GWF. Yet another reason why movement was nice. No sprint button.

• Movement was also helpful for tanks to just stay ahead of groups to grab agro.
• Some people like to go fast. To ask why is pointless. You may like a slooooooooow dungeon crawl but others don't.

kiraskytower

greywynd said:

Yes, well, haven't checked on my GWF, but pretty sure they can still sprint ahead to start the fight and grab all the aggro.

Well, you CAN .... unless you are a GWF tank (in which case, sprint has been replaced by block and you are just as slow as everyone else). Now of course, you may not want to as it's going to be much harder for the tank to take that agro back when they finally catch up .... but if you want to rush ahead and grab it, it can be all yours!

havlocke

ecrana#2080 said:

havlocke said:

Depends on your point of view. From the point of view of a newbie, when you see so called Veterans run to the end of the dungeon while you are still halfway thru, this movement speed they have is discouraging. It discouraged one guy out of my group to just stop playing after the first month or so of this. Its not a race, you aren't on a timer.

Movement speed has nothing to do with player behavior. While it's sad that poor newbs get left behind on random pug runs, that's going to happen with or without super speed if the elites have no interest in waiting for the newb, picking up the dead newb, etc etc. Some people just don't want to handhold people.

• Movement was also helpful for tanks to just stay ahead of groups to grab agro.
• Some people like to go fast. To ask why is pointless. You may like a slooooooooow dungeon crawl but others don't.

Whats handholding got to do with anything. It's just plain rude to run ahead and leave everybody behind. Its an MMO. If you wanted to solo, go private queue and solo that. And besides which, WHY?? You still have to wait for said newb to get to the purple circle before you can proceed right? Running ahead achieves zero reduction in clearing time. And in fact, if the newb is truly a newb, he/she might repeated die and slow things down even more. Have I missed something fundamental here? Is there a way to activate the purple circle without the full party or something?

Tanks need to be ahead to grab aggro. Agreed. Maybe, just maybe, you might let the tank go first? Hmm, like teamwork or something approximating that? Just because you can run ahead of the tank does not mean you should.

As to the speed of the dungeon crawl. Of course everybody would like things to go faster. But if only half are going fast and the other half arent, then see first paragraph.

sandukutupu

I did some research on preview on speed for those of you feeling the need for speed. GWF sprint is still working but limits your choice of class. There is one boon on the second tier you can spend a max of 5 boon points to get a tiny boost. Mount insignia skill Gladiator's Guile is now only 10% while you have stamina greater than 75%. Beyond getting a legendary mount, it looks like the team wants us to all move at the same speed or near it. Another thing I want to point out is the fact that mobs in the dungeons seem a lot more aggressive, they don't give up the chase. This means, you won't be ignoring those mobs as you fly by them, because they will catch up before the next door and you will end up fighting a small army there. I just tested the leveling dungeons and got my butt kicked in the attempt.

Unknown

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ecrana

havlocke said:

Whats handholding got to do with anything. It's just plain rude to run ahead and leave everybody behind. Its an MMO. If you wanted to solo, go private queue and solo that. And besides which, WHY?? You still have to wait for said newb to get to the purple circle before you can proceed right? Running ahead achieves zero reduction in clearing time. And in fact, if the newb is truly a newb, he/she might repeated die and slow things down even more. Have I missed something fundamental here? Is there a way to activate the purple circle without the full party or something?

What's handholding have to do with it? You tell me? You brought up newbs getting discouraged because faster players were leaving them behind....which in turn means they're slowed down by the newb and are doing what? Holding...their...hand. All your other comments don't amount to anything. Running ahead doesn't imply leaving things alive to everyone. The only fundamental thing you're missing is that other people don't play the way you do. But keep pushing your viewpoint. That's what we're here for.

havlocke said:

As to the speed of the dungeon crawl. Of course everybody would like things to go faster. But if only half are going fast and the other half arent, then see first paragraph.

Ahhh again returning to your main point that faster players should slow down and hold newbs hands through a run. Got it. But this isn't about holding slow players hands. Got it.

Anyway, my point was merely that you have your viewpoint and someone else has their viewpoint. I hate to break it to you but you're not right. And you're not wrong. You play your way. Others will play theirs.

You know what else an mmo entails? Dealing with different personalities and play styles. Something all the proponents of "slowing down for the newbs" love to ignore.

I could care less other people handle their runs. It's their prerogative. I don't pug often. I have a group because I, dear lord can you believe this, understand it's an mmo. Because of that I have a group I run with in the style and speed and fun ways we like to play.

On the rare chance that I do enter the netherworlds of pug life, hard to believe but I kill things in the way and proceed forward. I don't leave things behind for slower players to have to battle through but I don't sit around and wait for them either. I can deal with mail/bank/etc items while waiting in the purple circle. Take your time getting to the circle at your own painfully slow pace. The path will be cleared.

Anyway, this is all moot since we'll soon all be running at the same speed. Then the complaints will be that the tankier players are aggroing too many mobs and getting lower level players killed while continuing on without them. Because back to my only point, you can nerf speed, but you can't change player behavior.

havlocke

OK, just answer me this. WHY RUN AHEAD? You are going to get stopped at the purple circle. You cannot proceed until everybody enters. So you are running ahead just so you can do your banking/etc while waiting for people to get there???

This is an MMO, supposedly co-op play. Why not slow down and help the new guys who aren't moving at light speed. That is not only polite but completely necessary since you have to wait for them anyways.

And yes, all moot since we are all going at the same speed now. I just don't think this is a bad thing.

krumple01

bobo#5090 said:

What is the method behind the madness of the new enchant stats in mod 16 preview? Assuming these go live, why nerf dark enchant utility stat from movement? On console I have a pally with 82xx movement(+20.6 % move speed) and he's still lags behind in groups a ton. It now looks like in preview that if I want to move faster I need to spend what few ability points I get from leveling on dex to run faster. Is it possible to leave the enchant stats alone, and add the new stats that need adding for the new stats. I have a ton invested in dark enchants so I can at least attempt to keep up with the others in pugs, but now I'll never finish any q that takes more than 15mins as I'll get kicked for being too slow...

Well now everyone runs like a brand new pally so no more wondering where the GF and GWF went. You dont have to worry about missing the fighter speed buff. Those darks still have some worth though, although all enchants are nerfed across the board. They add so little stats that it almost seems like the devs are laughing at the players.

You can get 150,000 power without enchants, with those enchants all rank 15 will give you 160,000. That 10k difference does nothing when compared to the 150,000 you already have. Its a drop in the ocean compared. It has even been tested running a character without any enchants in the slots with level 80 gear vs one with rank 15s and there is little to no difference.

They are masking the "Chase" players assume that they need the enchants but they don't want over powered players anymore, they want new characters and old veteran characters to be identical and the only way to ensure this happens is by making it so enchants give very little stat bonus.

The same is happening with the boons. The total without and the total with reveal no effective gain. So if you were to skip all the boons, no one in the party will even notice. The ONLY difference comes in the form of companions. This currently is the ONLY thing that sets players apart. So the assumption is they plan to reduce their effectiveness as well but are waiting until closer to launch to do it.

dread4moor

Nearly 6 years of hard work, grinding and saving to refine dozens of rank 14s on 5 toons.
All will be made nearly worthless in 2 weeks.

But 'sall good.
I hear "90% of players" are happy with that.

Unknown

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adinosii

bobo#5090 said:

and one toon that has maybe 5 r13+ enchants(including the 1 free r14 anniversary enchant, and the one free r14 from AI). I have 1.4 million refine points, 5 coal wards, and 40+ pres wards. Guess I hoard that junk, cuz it sounds like it's all worthless?

Well, it's not that bad. If some of those r13+ enchants are bonding runestones, they are as good as ever - and those are actually worth upgrading to R15. As for other enchants, well...they are not worthless, but because of the change from 500->1% to 1000->1% they are only half as effective as they used to be. The simple fact is that most of the stats in M16 comes from easily obtainable gear, and the contribution of things like enchants, boons and anything else you have to grind for is being cut.

I don't know why - this is the exact wrong direction as far as I am concerned, as it devalues the whole idea of progression and the enjoyment many players get out of working hard for a "meaningful" upgrade. I suspect the is idea is to narrow the gap between a new player and veterans - and make it easier for the new players to catch up ... we cannot have a player who started a month ago feel inferior to someone who has been playing for 5+ years, right?

Anyhow, the refine points and pres wards are fine (you need them for the bonding runestones at the very least). The coalescent wards will actually be devalued - because of the streak breaker, they are only equivalent to 80-something Preservation wards now, instead of 100, but that's not a massive difference.

I am actually a bit surprised why they did not increase the points given by high-end enchants. When people realize it is not as worthwhile to upgrade enchants as it used to be, it will reduce the demand for wards, which in the long run will probably reduce Zen sales.

akemnos

havlocke said:

OK, just answer me this. WHY RUN AHEAD? You are going to get stopped at the purple circle. You cannot proceed until everybody enters. So you are running ahead just so you can do your banking/etc while waiting for people to get there???

This is an MMO, supposedly co-op play. Why not slow down and help the new guys who aren't moving at light speed. That is not only polite but completely necessary since you have to wait for them anyways.

And yes, all moot since we are all going at the same speed now. I just don't think this is a bad thing.

Because Running Ahead is much easier. I am a high Ilevel TR. If I run a pug levelling queue for the AD and get Cloak tower any at will i make kills a mob in 1 hit. How am i supposed to slow down and help them? I have two options. I stay with the group and do almost nothing to allow them to have a sense of accomplishment while i sit around for 20-30 minutes doing nothing. Or the preferred option is i keep moving and kill everything in the path on the way to the boss. I can then do anything i want while i wait for the new guys to loot any of the stuff on the ground and catch up to me at the circle, which typically takes 5 minutes.

given those choices why would i spend 25 minutes more in the run than i have to?

frogwalloper

havlocke said:

OK, just answer me this. WHY RUN AHEAD? You are going to get stopped at the purple circle. You cannot proceed until everybody enters. So you are running ahead just so you can do your banking/etc while waiting for people to get there???

This is an MMO, supposedly co-op play. Why not slow down and help the new guys who aren't moving at light speed. That is not only polite but completely necessary since you have to wait for them anyways.

Personally, I don't like leaving people behind either, but someone who zips off ahead AND kills everything does speed things up for the rest of the party since they can just keep on trucking to the group hug at the end. Might be worth timing the difference just for curiosity's sake.

Then you've got the ones who run away from all the mobs and leave their mess for everyone else to clean up. They're just jerks. But yeah, the smart ones sit there managing the workshop or browsing the auction house - maybe posting blues that you're busy picking up for them. The stupid ones just sit there, or maybe yell for their mom to microwave them another frozen burrito.

ecrana

havlocke said:

OK, just answer me this. WHY RUN AHEAD? You are going to get stopped at the purple circle. You cannot proceed until everybody enters. So you are running ahead just so you can do your banking/etc while waiting for people to get there???

This is an MMO, supposedly co-op play. Why not slow down and help the new guys who aren't moving at light speed. That is not only polite but completely necessary since you have to wait for them anyways.

And yes, all moot since we are all going at the same speed now. I just don't think this is a bad thing.

Again, you mistake running fast with leaving things alive. Why run ahead? Why, if everything's dead, stand there and walk at a snails pace with someone? Why not proceed, clear a path, and handle whatever I need to handle while they catch up? I'm living with their slow playstyle. Why are the speedy players the bad guys?

I can understand abandoning someone with mobs being an issue, But speed in itself is not an issue.

dread4moor

adinosii said:

bobo#5090 said:

and one toon that has maybe 5 r13+ enchants(including the 1 free r14 anniversary enchant, and the one free r14 from AI). I have 1.4 million refine points, 5 coal wards, and 40+ pres wards. Guess I hoard that junk, cuz it sounds like it's all worthless?

Well, it's not that bad. because of the change from 500->1% to 1000->1% they are only half as effective as they used to be. The simple fact is that most of the stats in M16 comes from easily obtainable gear, and the contribution of things like enchants, boons and anything else you have to grind for is being cut.

I don't know why - this is the exact wrong direction as far as I am concerned, as it devalues the whole idea of progression and the enjoyment many players get out of working hard for a "meaningful" upgrade.
I am actually a bit surprised why they did not increase the points given by high-end enchants. When people realize it is not as worthwhile to upgrade enchants as it used to be, it will reduce the demand for wards, which in the long run will probably reduce Zen sales.

"It's not that bad [if you have not refined 30-40 rank 14 non-bonding stone enchants]".
Okay. enough venting.
Let's argue logic. This was illogical from every angle including as a business decision:
Cryptic's Benefit:
As you say, increasing value of refineable assets (enchants) coupled with the rank increase will result in increased zen sales and reduction in the AD market surplus (due to AD Store and AH-fees for refining mats).
Took would gladly have bought some zen and stocked up on coal wards.

But instead, they decreased the value.
Now hundreds of players who would have been desperate to upgrade their 'chants from 14 to 15 will hesitate.
Much less likely to spend real money or Zen for something half as valuable.

Not a smart business move.