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Official M16: Paladin Feedback

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  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 247 Arc User
    I have actually stopped using smite. Been trying out VoE, TW and BO. I found before that my sellsword was tanking for me, stealing my agro. Now I always keep the agro, even while shielding. I have done a lot of testing against the lvl 80 vamps, regularly the big 8 man group. Been trying to like SW but the cool down is way over the top, slows progression group to group a bunch. It is still way better than Cone of Suck. Can our Tab ability summon Brave Sir Robins followers instead? The little "yay" may not do more than give me a chuckle, but that is still 10 times better than Cone of Suck.
  • angeeruangeeru Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I thought it would take a few more months for the release so I wasn't so worried, but since the official release date is so close, I got a bit concerned about the state of Paladin.

    Both paragons of Paladin have a really weak identity; with two mechanics that, although interesting on their own, feel just like a weaker, recycled version of DC's and GF's mechanics, with no changes made to better fit paladin's concept.

    Since it seems that the overall paladin player base likes the "magic aura knight" fantasy, it would be a unique and interesting path to push Paladin's identity into.
    Instead of Divinity, it could have a "Aura Gauge" that could be turned on and off - important to not conflict with block - to grant powerful effects around it, draining quickly and with smaller aoe or effect the less gauge it has.
    That way, Paladin's could have a active - something that aura build usually aren't - and unique mechanic, tailored to fill his fantasy.

    Justicar's aura could have a damage reduction for enemies inside his aura, with meaningful choices like "your damage reduction effect is stronger VS instead of reducing damage dealt by enemies, you reduce damage taken by allies" or "enemies taking damage inside your aura build stamina VS blocking attacks build aura gauge"

    Oathkeeper's aura could heal allies inside his aura. Since he now has a way to direct heal ( albert slowly ) covered by his tab mechanic, he has more freedom to have shield only effects on his encounters and dailies, solidifying his niche as a shielding/mitigation healer.



  • hercules125hercules125 Member Posts: 427 Arc User
    Just curious if they even thought of soloability when reworking this class? Smite appears to have been nerfed with this last patch, so there goes what little dps I had. Still having issues with survivability, unless I'm just supposed to stand there with shield up, letting my companion do all the dps. We need our temp hps back.
  • raziel2004#7353 raziel2004 Member Posts: 88 Arc User
    Hi i would like to suggest divinity gains using tab for oathkeeper and cleric heal around allies while pressing tab so to make it more useful during combat. thank you.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    1) We don’t need our temp HP back. You need to look to your Defence and Critical Resist and Awareness stats as well as HP, you can no longer ignore defence because your temps will do all the work. You also need to use your shield, that is the point of it. You also need to remember some things are wildly bugged at the moment (scaled Ettercaps and Gelatinous Cubes leap to mind).

    2) Smite now hits in a good range of damage. Simply spamming Smite until everything is dead, isn’t an option now, you need to pace Smite with other powers.

    I always have the fear that makes Valourous have a chance of making the next Smite crit.

    My rotation is one of;
    Relentless Avenger, Burning Light, Smite, At-Wills, block if needed to avoid CC or specific big hits. As RA is about to come off cooldown, use Smite and RA to clean up.

    If there is a specific key target (eg Necromancers in Waning Darknesss);
    RA, Smite, Tap BL, Valourous, Smite. Block for a moment to get some Divinity and get RA/BL closer to off cool down.

    Alternate Smite Set:
    Burning Light, Binding Oath, Smite. The Master Boon that at 3/3 has the ability to refelect the pre-mitigated damage back at an enemy (I actually always have this, but it’s particularly pertinent here. I wish Briartwine worked off pre-mitigated damage.)

    This rotation starts with Smite, as the enemies are halfway to you start charging BL, it should be fully charged as they get to you, close gap with at-will if needed. Use Valarous until they are free from the stun, then as Smite is probably going to crit, smack the biggest thing with Smite and then pop Binding, and shield up for Divinity and “reflected” damage.

    No Smite Set;
    Sacred Weapon, Bane, Burning Light, cast in that order. This rotation is a little more “go slow” between mobs due to the long cool down on Sacred Weapon and the need to recover Divinity more often.

    Which brings up the ever recurring Divinity recovery problem and the need for Sacred Weapon to have a shorter cool down to make it more useful in consecutive encounters.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 247 Arc User
    I tried LoMM to check my ratings solo. My defense is 71k, Belos was doing melee attacks of 52k(222k), 42k(222k) and 135k(222k). Why the difference in amount of damage taken from hits that did the same amount? My defense could not have changed so much as it was all in the same encounter. How does my defense decrease an attack of exact same magnitude 3 different ways with one such a drastic deviation? No crits and if CA was affecting it wouldn't the pre DR modified damage be higher not the same?
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Looks like various defence buffs in effect.

    eg Shield vs No Shield pretty much accounts for the difference.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • feioso123feioso123 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    @asterdahl...This...this m16 Paladin...it's simply not ok, as a Paladin main since m10...currently, I would pick any other tank/healer over a Paladin for a group, we are simply inferior in every aspect...you need to stop trying so hard to "balance" this class and simply crank up it's gears a notch:

    Divinity: It has been stated more than enough times, but, we simply need more divinity gain in both paragons, as it stands, there is simply way too much micro-managing for a class that is supposed to play as one of the lifelines of a party.

    Healing: Oh boy...it's hard to call what the Oathkeeper currently is doing as healing, more like first aid..our healing powers need to be seriously buffed.

    Aggro: Either by trough better divinity gain or lower cooldowns or even damage, something has to be done about it...where is our threat multiplier from pre-m16?...if it's still there, why was it toned down so much?...why doesn't Binding Oath generate aggro while we shield up?..why was Sacred weapon relieved of it's "taunt"?...

    I don't want this class to be the best tank or healer, but I do want it to be one of the viable choices for the jobs it is supposed to do.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    Actually Binding Oath does generate aggro while shield is up, because it is doing damage to things hitting you.

    Sacred Weapon increases your damage out put, more damage means you are generating more aggro. It combines with any AoE power, but isn't really a good power for party play imo, its more for solo play.

    There is room for improvement on our aggro management, but it is not the disaster some people seem intent on selling it as, heals may or may not be. I'm certainly not confident in heals at the moment, but I'd like to have the opportunity to test with an experienced tank before putting it on the shelf. But heals definitely seems to be in a much worse place than our tank.

    Divinity..sure..that still needs to work better, but I'm not making further suggestions.

    Incidentally can we get the same number of stat points as the other classes? (+1 Str and Dex or just +2 Str would be great.)
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • skrewfaz3d#1482 skrewfaz3d Member Posts: 109 Arc User
    I think I will end up "maining" a barbarian. (Person who warned not to try it was right) Paladin is a turtle. Smite has become a meh power instead of the "mini divine judgement" it was known for. Oathbound Paladins often went justice not bulwark (which seems to be the goal.) So my playstyle doesn't seem to be in the plans for the class.

    Good luck paladins!
  • skaarl75skaarl75 Member Posts: 19 Arc User

    Actually Binding Oath does generate aggro while shield is up, because it is doing damage to things hitting you.

    Sacred Weapon increases your damage out put, more damage means you are generating more aggro. It combines with any AoE power, but isn't really a good power for party play imo, its more for solo play.

    There is room for improvement on our aggro management, but it is not the disaster some people seem intent on selling it as, heals may or may not be. I'm certainly not confident in heals at the moment, but I'd like to have the opportunity to test with an experienced tank before putting it on the shelf. But heals definitely seems to be in a much worse place than our tank.

    Divinity..sure..that still needs to work better, but I'm not making further suggestions.

    Incidentally can we get the same number of stat points as the other classes? (+1 Str and Dex or just +2 Str would be great.)

    Just to clarify with patches timing etc @obisiancran3 what are our stat priorities right now? I thought I saw con and int??? for radiant damage or was that on a prior release?


  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    skaarl75 said:


    Just to clarify with patches timing etc @obisiancran3 what are our stat priorities right now? I thought I saw con and int??? for radiant damage or was that on a prior release?

    I prioritize Int (damage) and Cha (recharge), as long as you get Con around 20 its been fine for me (I am using an Ion Stone of Allure, and the Energon HP benefit from companions and Boons to get to 530k HP).

    Valorous Judgement is not working.
    So if the feat is staying it needs to be fixed.

    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    skaarl75 said:

    Ok, so i finally managed to spend some time on preview and all i can say is: no way will this be ready to go live in 3 weeks. It is going to, but its a cluster right now.

    Feats: In serious (and admitted my asterdahl) need of a rework. they don't really flow with the class.

    Pallisade: disaster. seriously this needed ditched and all i can think of is they are putting it in because they want to build an encounter down the road where it is useful. problem is it sucks so bad no one will use it.

    Smite: seriously one of the biggest issues with the class. I know I'm going to get some head scratches at this one, but have you tried to play without it? It's not a class power choice, it is a mandatory game mechanic.

    I would like to say that the idea of the class rework is good, but it's not. They need to go grab ANY D&D players guide and remember what a pally is. It would have been a better idea than the haphazard job that has been done. I have tried to remain optimistic about this as i tested and played, but as release day comes closer the class has gotten worse not better.

    Anyway, my 2 cents, which have already fallen on deaf ears.

    Smite for new Tab
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User

    skaarl75 said:


    Just to clarify with patches timing etc @obisiancran3 what are our stat priorities right now? I thought I saw con and int??? for radiant damage or was that on a prior release?

    I prioritize Int (damage) and Cha (recharge), as long as you get Con around 20 its been fine for me (I am using an Ion Stone of Allure, and the Energon HP benefit from companions and Boons to get to 530k HP).

    Valorous Judgement is not working.
    So if the feat is staying it needs to be fixed.

    That sounds close to what I've got on oathkeeper though I prioritize Wis over Cha for a boost to the outgoing heals. As those stand now, they range from okay (LoH) to disgraceful (Cure 3 -5k on crit) when compared to some of the added effects they had on live.
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 247 Arc User
    There was no shielding involved in those hits. All conditions were the same. Not sure what defense buff would allow for a difference that much, almost 100k, on the same 222k hits.
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User

    My rotation is one of;
    Relentless Avenger, Burning Light, Smite, At-Wills, block if needed to avoid CC or specific big hits. As RA is about to come off cooldown, use Smite and RA to clean up.


    Is that for casual pve? Cause yo know, CC is bad for D. In my solo pve runs Id rather have all targets im engaging smack me and generate Divinity.
    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    emilemo said:

    My rotation is one of;
    Relentless Avenger, Burning Light, Smite, At-Wills, block if needed to avoid CC or specific big hits. As RA is about to come off cooldown, use Smite and RA to clean up.


    Is that for casual pve? Cause yo know, CC is bad for D. In my solo pve runs Id rather have all targets im engaging smack me and generate Divinity.
    1. Depend on what companion you are using and 2 what kind of trash you are clearing.

    I myself always use binding oath on trash activate before charge in block a few charge BL and smith as I use con artist trash are mostly dead by now if not another BL kills them both binding and BL is aoe = better then relentless on many opponents....
  • kacsaneverkacsanever Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    edited April 2019


    Incidentally can we get the same number of stat points as the other classes? (+1 Str and Dex or just +2 Str would be great.)

    Why do you want +STR on a Paladin? My last experience/experiment was that, both tank and heal path get increased damage from INT (divine based attacks->magic damage). Have they changed it?
    What else would STR give for a Pala?
    I do understand DEX b/c of increased CritSev and MovSpeed.
  • emilemoemilemo Member Posts: 1,718 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    marnival said:

    emilemo said:

    My rotation is one of;
    Relentless Avenger, Burning Light, Smite, At-Wills, block if needed to avoid CC or specific big hits. As RA is about to come off cooldown, use Smite and RA to clean up.


    Is that for casual pve? Cause yo know, CC is bad for D. In my solo pve runs Id rather have all targets im engaging smack me and generate Divinity.
    1. Depend on what companion you are using and 2 what kind of trash you are clearing.

    I myself always use binding oath on trash activate before charge in block a few charge BL and smith as I use con artist trash are mostly dead by now if not another BL kills them both binding and BL is aoe = better then relentless on many opponents....
    I plan to stay away from active comps in m16 /too bad since i have like a dozen legendaries :) /. Now that stat wise Augs are finally the superior choice /as they should have always been/ I'd go with an aug.

    With an Aug my slots usually are: Bane, BO, SW. Bane to start, fire off BO and SW, then Block = D recovery and damage attackers each time they hit me. If something lives another Bane or even Shielding strike. I like to play this way since it helps me remember to block. In m15 and prior the Paladin tank as you all know was/is a temp health beast. Blocking happened very rarely for me and only to avoid some cc. With 1-2 million temp health on average Blocking becomes redundant. But in m16 Im gonna have to Block not only for protection but for D recovery too.

    @asterdahl, I know Im repeating myself but what about Feats and yes, again, Passives? I dont consider what you did to Auras equal to fixing Passives. Not even close. Heck, look at the dps Warlock first passive - it provides over 5000 raw stats! Now thats what Id call a Passve, would nvr leave my slot.
    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    emilemo said:

    marnival said:

    emilemo said:

    My rotation is one of;
    Relentless Avenger, Burning Light, Smite, At-Wills, block if needed to avoid CC or specific big hits. As RA is about to come off cooldown, use Smite and RA to clean up.


    Is that for casual pve? Cause yo know, CC is bad for D. In my solo pve runs Id rather have all targets im engaging smack me and generate Divinity.
    1. Depend on what companion you are using and 2 what kind of trash you are clearing.

    I myself always use binding oath on trash activate before charge in block a few charge BL and smith as I use con artist trash are mostly dead by now if not another BL kills them both binding and BL is aoe = better then relentless on many opponents....
    I plan to stay away from active comps in m16 /too bad since i have like a dozen legendaries :) /. Now that stat wise Augs are finally the superior choice /as they should have always been/ I'd go with an aug.

    With an Aug my slots usually are: Bane, BO, SW. Bane to start, fire off BO and SW, then Block = D recovery and damage attackers each time they hit me. If something lives another Bane or even Shielding strike. I like to play this way since it helps me remember to block. In m15 and prior the Paladin tank as you all know was/is a temp health beast. Blocking happened very rarely for me and only to avoid some cc. With 1-2 million temp health on average Blocking becomes redundant. But in m16 Im gonna have to Block not only for protection but for D recovery too.

    @asterdahl, I know Im repeating myself but what about Feats and yes, again, Passives? I dont consider what you did to Auras equal to fixing Passives. Not even close. Heck, look at the dps Warlock first passive - it provides over 5000 raw stats! Now thats what Id call a Passve, would nvr leave my slot.
    Going for aug in group dungeons but as my con artist hits for 50k+ clearing trash with him is so much faster when questing no stats can compensate his dps ( I think he is getting a bit cocky though running all over the place bringing tons of mobs to me just to show off mmm)...

    Best
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    > @kacsanever said:
    > Incidentally can we get the same number of stat points as the other classes? (+1 Str and Dex or just +2 Str would be great.)
    >
    > Why do you want +STR on a Paladin? My last experience/experiment was that, both tank and heal path get increased damage from INT (divine based attacks->magic damage). Have they changed it?
    > What else would STR give for a Pala?
    > I do understand DEX b/c of increased CritSev and MovSpeed.

    Str is Stamina Gain.

    If both Str and Dex start at 10, that would be best as it gives the most flexibility for people.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    > @emilemo said:
    > My rotation is one of;
    > Relentless Avenger, Burning Light, Smite, At-Wills, block if needed to avoid CC or specific big hits. As RA is about to come off cooldown, use Smite and RA to clean up.
    >
    >
    > Is that for casual pve? Cause yo know, CC is bad for D. In my solo pve runs Id rather have all targets im engaging smack me and generate Divinity.


    My Divinity rarely dips below 50% now. Usually it sits above 70% so recovery is fast and if I’m rushing I might need to hold my shield up to get a bit back, before continuing.

    Now that I have a steady rotation that I’m comfortable with I can happily pull 2 or 3 mobs if they are close enough to just kill them all at once.

    My companion is Augment, and I haven’t noticed a slow down in killing stuff since I put the Conartist away.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I dunno. Maybe someone has already asked and answered this or is taken for action already, but I have a question @asterdahl - How will Justicar's Charge on the Justicar interact with the Divine Barrier provided by an Oathkeeper?

    Reason I ask is that even when blocking as an Oathkeeper, I'm getting damage numbers and my stamina is uneffected but the damage is going straight to the barrier first, not to the block first. Now that's fine by me on my Oathkeeper but I'm wondering if placing a heal on justicar from an Oathkeeper will impair/impact their divinity regen while trying to block.

    Edit - I 'm planning on asking one of my guildies to join me on preview to test it, but I wanted to see if it's been brought up before or is a non-issue
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    If you see me on, happy to help out.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • jase2cooljase2cool Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 165 Arc User
    AoE such as Radiant Strike, Templar Wrath, Bane in test server does not trigger Tarokka Deck (3 piece vistani set bonus) which currently on live server its able to be triggered by Radiant Strike and Templar's Wrath


  • skaarl75skaarl75 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    I think we are basically at what we have is what were getting point. so bad feats and palisade is here to stay.
  • silvergryphsilvergryph Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 740 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    BUG?:The new starting attribute array for Paladin totals to 72 points, whereas all other classes total 74 points. This is not due to a weighted system such as D&D's point buy. They don't match up to any D&D point buy system. For example, in 5e point buy the point values for the current starting arrays would range from 32 points (Cleric) up to 37 points (Barbarian). No, they appear to just be all composed of 74 points divided as the devs saw fit. Except Paladin at 72 points.

    Paladin: STR: 8, CON: 12, DEX: 8, INT: 12, WIS: 14, CHA: 18


    The other classes for reference:
    Barbarian: STR: 18, CON: 14, DEX: 14, INT: 8, WIS: 10, CHA: 10
    Cleric: STR: 10, CON: 10, DEX: 10, INT: 15, WIS: 16, CHA: 13
    Fighter: STR: 16, CON: 16, DEX: 14, INT: 8, WIS: 10, CHA: 10
    Ranger: STR: 16, CON: 12, DEX: 16, INT: 10, WIS: 8, CHA: 12
    Rogue: STR: 13, CON: 13, DEX: 18, INT: 8, WIS: 10, CHA: 12
    Warlock: STR: 8, CON: 14, DEX: 12, INT: 16, WIS: 8, CHA: 16
    Wizard: STR: 8, CON: 10, DEX: 12, INT: 18, WIS: 14, CHA: 12

    Suggested Array: STR: 10, CON: 12, DEX: 8, INT: 12, WIS: 14, CHA: 18
    OR
    STR: 10, CON: 12, DEX: 10, INT: 12, WIS: 14, CHA: 16
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