Here is an Idea: Lock everyone's primary attribute to a fixed identical number at character creation. Make it so you can't put additional points into it... it increases with level only. Players receive extra points to distribute into other attributes however they choose.
It would work similar to this:
Primary attribute = 17 Other attributes = 10
Your are given 10 points to put into your other attributes, but they are initially capped at 16 points.
After creation, primary attribute automtically increases at all of the intervals. You distribute 2 additional points anywhere else at each threshold.
Using a system that gives no control over your primary attribute, no one needs to argue over who's is better. The paragon balancing will come from the skills and feats, not the attribute.
I don't want to dismiss the system you suggest by any means, I'm sure it;s fine. But the means of distributing stat points isn't the problem. The issue isn't that any of the systems that have been either tried and tested over the 40+ years of D&D or have just been suggested by players here are bad. There are loads of ways of giving players options in character creation that can offer flexibility while maintaining a balance of numbers.
The issue is convincing the Powers That Be, that having choice and variability in the 6 prime stats at the point of creation is realy important to some people. That forcing people to have a fixed set of stats, some sets of which are directly contradictory to the way the classes should be organised, is just a terrible way to do things. Not everyone, some people don't care as long as their character is efficient and balanced, but a lot of people want the choice.
For some people that is because they want to decide how their combat modifiers are assigned, (maybe based on their style of play, maybe because they like to experiment), and for others its because they want to have the right "feel" for the character they want to play, ( even if that is only to maintain the illusion that the game IS based on Dungeons and Dragons.) Either way, it is a cornerstone of the D&D game and should be kept.
Until TPTB get that, I'm afraid we are at a bit of an impasse. Until we get them to see that there is a problem, they won't be interested in any number of offered solutions to it.
I've been reading snippets about how down-scaling is being performed. I have concerns that current method will create noodle-code and be difficult to adjust in the future. I worked hours to come up with a formula that would handle all scaling concerns because it can simply be applied to a characters base stats at any given time. Enter any values in the orange boxes using the google doc link below to access a working spreadsheet.
The combat system in D&D is inherently removed from the idea of a real time system. The closest anyone came was with NWN2, and the more players were involved, the more cumbersome that combat system became. It was best played as a solo game due to the turn based nature of trying to stick closely to D&D.
There is a MMORPG that closely follows 3E rules with some variations to make progress more gradual: DDO. They cannot upgrade to 5E due to licensing conditions. With quick search you would find it. But it has major problems: lack of support for 4k monitors (game is unplayable on that resolution), dated graphics, and greedy publisher (much more greedy than Cryptic).
So the game proves that implementation close to D&D rules is possible in MMORPG context.
The combat system in D&D is inherently removed from the idea of a real time system. The closest anyone came was with NWN2, and the more players were involved, the more cumbersome that combat system became. It was best played as a solo game due to the turn based nature of trying to stick closely to D&D.
There is a MMORPG that closely follows 3E rules with some variations to make progress more gradual: DDO. They cannot upgrade to 5E due to licensing conditions. With quick search you would find it. But it has major problems: lack of support for 4k monitors (game is unplayable on that resolution), dated graphics, and greedy publisher (much more greedy than Cryptic).
So the game proves that implementation close to D&D rules is possible in MMORPG context.
But combat is one of the worst things about DDO... Unless you run combat in a P&P along the lines of "You can attack as often and as fast as you can roll the dice, calculate the outcome and quickly roll again" then the D&D combat system is inherently removed from real time action combat in a computer game. Even in the fairly clumsy combat of DDO, player skill is a factor.
The combat system in D&D is inherently removed from the idea of a real time system. The closest anyone came was with NWN2, and the more players were involved, the more cumbersome that combat system became. It was best played as a solo game due to the turn based nature of trying to stick closely to D&D.
There is a MMORPG that closely follows 3E rules with some variations to make progress more gradual: DDO. They cannot upgrade to 5E due to licensing conditions. With quick search you would find it. But it has major problems: lack of support for 4k monitors (game is unplayable on that resolution), dated graphics, and greedy publisher (much more greedy than Cryptic).
So the game proves that implementation close to D&D rules is possible in MMORPG context.
But combat is one of the worst things about DDO... Unless you run combat in a P&P along the lines of "You can attack as often and as fast as you can roll the dice, calculate the outcome and quickly roll again" then the D&D combat system is inherently removed from real time action combat in a computer game. Even in the fairly clumsy combat of DDO, player skill is a factor.
Combat is somewhat dated, but it is quite standart target system. So it is matter of taste. The difference with tabletop is that computer rolls dies, so you could not think while rolling dice. It still gives D&D feel. And player's skill matter everywhere.
I am not sure if this has been raised before but the loss of armor class at module 16 is very concerning, especially in a MMO like Neverwinter. I don't want to state the obvious but normally people wearing big armors are more protected than people running fabric clothes. And on the flip side, they normally deal less damage.
Now even people with big armors (in the old system paladins/gf, then gwf/dc etc) are naked-like because their armor is like a transmute when it comes to the added resistance to damage.
This is not compatible with D&D spirit and it is really a downgrade as it is not logical.
For the sake of balancing the damage, I understand that you wanted to focus on featsxpowersxweapon damagexpower magnitudexpower cooldown blabla to make dps on an equal footing. Regardless of the class.
In order to fix this simply (I don't know how easy it is), I would suggest to keep armors with "neutral" default armor class as they are currently on preview BUT you can add another special pair of feats before the class feats: this new pair would make you choose to have a "default" armor (zero added resistance but more damage) or a "class" armor (e.g 14 for paladin) that will add more resistance. Or the other way around.
I am not sure if this has been raised before but the loss of armor class at module 16 is very concerning, especially in a MMO like Neverwinter. I don't want to state the obvious but normally people wearing big armors are more protected than people running fabric clothes. And on the flip side, they normally deal less damage.
Now even people with big armors (in the old system paladins/gf, then gwf/dc etc) are naked-like because their armor is like a transmute when it comes to the added resistance to damage.
This is not compatible with D&D spirit and it is really a downgrade as it is not logical.
For the sake of balancing the damage, I understand that you wanted to focus on featsxpowersxweapon damagexpower magnitudexpower cooldown blabla to make dps on an equal footing. Regardless of the class.
In order to fix this simply (I don't know how easy it is), I would suggest to keep armors with "neutral" default armor class as they are currently on preview BUT you can add another special pair of feats before the class feats: this new pair would make you choose to have a "default" armor (zero added resistance but more damage) or a "class" armor (e.g 14 for paladin) that will add more resistance. Or the other way around.
This is one of my largest concerns with Mod 16. If there is no difference in defensive stats or hit points between classes, why should I bother playing a Fighter of Barbarian? I'm better off to play a ranged DPS with some defense than I am Fighter or Barbarian DPS, I can have the same damage and survivability but stay at a distance to avoid AOE damage. At least with a Paladin you can have a healer spec which gives you options. Fighters and Barbarians get a "tank" spec and a fairly useless DPS spec.
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silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
At this point, I would just be happy with having an AC display on my "Character Sheet" as a D&D reference even if it had no function other than rough comparisons. Just for the fun and nostalgia of it.
Calculate it using the Neverwinter functional equivalencies of the Defensive Main Ratings (Defense, Deflect , Critical Avoidance and Awareness). AC would display as 10 + 1 per full 10,000 points in each Defensive Main Rating.
At this point, I would just be happy with having an AC display on my "Character Sheet" as a D&D reference even if it had no function other than rough comparisons. Just for the fun and nostalgia of it.
Calculate it using the Neverwinter functional equivalencies of the Defensive Main Ratings (Defense, Deflect , Critical Avoidance and Awareness). AC would display as 10 + 1 per full 10,000 points in each Defensive Main Rating.
I feel like a lot of things should be handled like this. Instead of giving players exact numbers, just give us the general ratings overall. But I don't expect much in the way of redesigns at this point.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I am not sure if this has been raised before but the loss of armor class at module 16 is very concerning, especially in a MMO like Neverwinter. I don't want to state the obvious but normally people wearing big armors are more protected than people running fabric clothes. And on the flip side, they normally deal less damage.
Now even people with big armors (in the old system paladins/gf, then gwf/dc etc) are naked-like because their armor is like a transmute when it comes to the added resistance to damage.
This is not compatible with D&D spirit and it is really a downgrade as it is not logical.
For the sake of balancing the damage, I understand that you wanted to focus on featsxpowersxweapon damagexpower magnitudexpower cooldown blabla to make dps on an equal footing. Regardless of the class.
In order to fix this simply (I don't know how easy it is), I would suggest to keep armors with "neutral" default armor class as they are currently on preview BUT you can add another special pair of feats before the class feats: this new pair would make you choose to have a "default" armor (zero added resistance but more damage) or a "class" armor (e.g 14 for paladin) that will add more resistance. Or the other way around.
Armor Class in Neverwinter effectively adds 0.5% (200 defense) damage reduction per point. It isn't really an important factor at all.
At this point, I would just be happy with having an AC display on my "Character Sheet" as a D&D reference even if it had no function other than rough comparisons. Just for the fun and nostalgia of it.
Calculate it using the Neverwinter functional equivalencies of the Defensive Main Ratings (Defense, Deflect , Critical Avoidance and Awareness). AC would display as 10 + 1 per full 10,000 points in each Defensive Main Rating.
I feel like a lot of things should be handled like this. Instead of giving players exact numbers, just give us the general ratings overall. But I don't expect much in the way of redesigns at this point.
I am not sure if this has been raised before but the loss of armor class at module 16 is very concerning, especially in a MMO like Neverwinter. I don't want to state the obvious but normally people wearing big armors are more protected than people running fabric clothes. And on the flip side, they normally deal less damage.
Now even people with big armors (in the old system paladins/gf, then gwf/dc etc) are naked-like because their armor is like a transmute when it comes to the added resistance to damage.
This is not compatible with D&D spirit and it is really a downgrade as it is not logical.
For the sake of balancing the damage, I understand that you wanted to focus on featsxpowersxweapon damagexpower magnitudexpower cooldown blabla to make dps on an equal footing. Regardless of the class.
In order to fix this simply (I don't know how easy it is), I would suggest to keep armors with "neutral" default armor class as they are currently on preview BUT you can add another special pair of feats before the class feats: this new pair would make you choose to have a "default" armor (zero added resistance but more damage) or a "class" armor (e.g 14 for paladin) that will add more resistance. Or the other way around.
Armor Class in Neverwinter effectively adds 0.5% (200 defense) damage reduction per point. It isn't really an important factor at all.
14AC on a fighters armor is more additional defense than 2 maxed out Azure enchantments, I would say that is a fair amount. That is two enchantments that can be focused on other stats. This would allow tanks to use two slots to help offset the natural 30% penalty they have been saddled with, it would also help justify playing a fighter DPS path instead of any ranged DPS class. There isn't a valid reason that a plate wearing class and a cloth wearing class should have the same base defense.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
At this point, I would just be happy with having an AC display on my "Character Sheet" as a D&D reference even if it had no function other than rough comparisons. Just for the fun and nostalgia of it.
Calculate it using the Neverwinter functional equivalencies of the Defensive Main Ratings (Defense, Deflect , Critical Avoidance and Awareness). AC would display as 10 + 1 per full 10,000 points in each Defensive Main Rating.
I feel like a lot of things should be handled like this. Instead of giving players exact numbers, just give us the general ratings overall. But I don't expect much in the way of redesigns at this point.
I am not sure if this has been raised before but the loss of armor class at module 16 is very concerning, especially in a MMO like Neverwinter. I don't want to state the obvious but normally people wearing big armors are more protected than people running fabric clothes. And on the flip side, they normally deal less damage.
Now even people with big armors (in the old system paladins/gf, then gwf/dc etc) are naked-like because their armor is like a transmute when it comes to the added resistance to damage.
This is not compatible with D&D spirit and it is really a downgrade as it is not logical.
For the sake of balancing the damage, I understand that you wanted to focus on featsxpowersxweapon damagexpower magnitudexpower cooldown blabla to make dps on an equal footing. Regardless of the class.
In order to fix this simply (I don't know how easy it is), I would suggest to keep armors with "neutral" default armor class as they are currently on preview BUT you can add another special pair of feats before the class feats: this new pair would make you choose to have a "default" armor (zero added resistance but more damage) or a "class" armor (e.g 14 for paladin) that will add more resistance. Or the other way around.
Armor Class in Neverwinter effectively adds 0.5% (200 defense) damage reduction per point. It isn't really an important factor at all.
14AC on a fighters armor is more additional defense than 2 maxed out Azure enchantments, I would say that is a fair amount. That is two enchantments that can be focused on other stats. This would allow tanks to use two slots to help offset the natural 30% penalty they have been saddled with, it would also help justify playing a fighter DPS path instead of any ranged DPS class. There isn't a valid reason that a plate wearing class and a cloth wearing class should have the same base defense.
On live you cap damage reduction by pressing a daily and being buffed by shepherd's devotion. Using an Azure on defense is a false choice and armor class is effectively doing nothing.
At this point, I would just be happy with having an AC display on my "Character Sheet" as a D&D reference even if it had no function other than rough comparisons. Just for the fun and nostalgia of it.
Calculate it using the Neverwinter functional equivalencies of the Defensive Main Ratings (Defense, Deflect , Critical Avoidance and Awareness). AC would display as 10 + 1 per full 10,000 points in each Defensive Main Rating.
I feel like a lot of things should be handled like this. Instead of giving players exact numbers, just give us the general ratings overall. But I don't expect much in the way of redesigns at this point.
I am not sure if this has been raised before but the loss of armor class at module 16 is very concerning, especially in a MMO like Neverwinter. I don't want to state the obvious but normally people wearing big armors are more protected than people running fabric clothes. And on the flip side, they normally deal less damage.
Now even people with big armors (in the old system paladins/gf, then gwf/dc etc) are naked-like because their armor is like a transmute when it comes to the added resistance to damage.
This is not compatible with D&D spirit and it is really a downgrade as it is not logical.
For the sake of balancing the damage, I understand that you wanted to focus on featsxpowersxweapon damagexpower magnitudexpower cooldown blabla to make dps on an equal footing. Regardless of the class.
In order to fix this simply (I don't know how easy it is), I would suggest to keep armors with "neutral" default armor class as they are currently on preview BUT you can add another special pair of feats before the class feats: this new pair would make you choose to have a "default" armor (zero added resistance but more damage) or a "class" armor (e.g 14 for paladin) that will add more resistance. Or the other way around.
Armor Class in Neverwinter effectively adds 0.5% (200 defense) damage reduction per point. It isn't really an important factor at all.
14AC on a fighters armor is more additional defense than 2 maxed out Azure enchantments, I would say that is a fair amount. That is two enchantments that can be focused on other stats. This would allow tanks to use two slots to help offset the natural 30% penalty they have been saddled with, it would also help justify playing a fighter DPS path instead of any ranged DPS class. There isn't a valid reason that a plate wearing class and a cloth wearing class should have the same base defense.
Well, back in 4E, Swordmages were a Defender and they used leather armor at most. The highest AC builds were actually hybrid Swordmage/Avengers, which used *cloth* armor.
And in 5E, Mage Armor + Dex 20 (max dex) is just as much AC as Plate Armor.
So I don't think there's really any leg to stand on that plate armor should be stronger than cloth armor. "Tank" armor should be more defensive than non-tank armor, but that's not a function of it being plate or not.
Right back in time in the 1st Ed Dungeon Masters Guide a bloke called Gary Gygax explained how the armour and combat in D&D is not meant to be a simulation, but merely a convenient way of resolving combat. That's why Dexterity modifiers apply in just about any armour. AC has changed a lot across the years. It used to be that AC 10 was terrible, the worst you could get, and -10 was the ultimate. Even back then Bracers of Defence AC3 allowed anyone to strut around in their underwear as if they were wearing Plate Mail.
While I have to say that I'm less concerned about it's disappearance from NWO than I am about the character creation "fixed stats" fiasco, I have to say that Armour Class is another of those iconic things from D&D that I'm really sorry to lose.
It would be nice in this era of making stuff simple for us dullards, if AC could be retooled within the new framework, to perhaps act as a general indicator of where the character is at from a Defence point of view?
Don't ask me how, I'd defer that sort of thing to someone with a firm grasp on how the numbers work, like @thefabricant but having that little "AC" Shield in the Character Sheet just feels right.
On live you cap damage reduction by pressing a daily and being buffed by shepherd's devotion. Using an Azure on defense is a false choice and armor class is effectively doing nothing.
I am very surprised that Armor Class wasn't reworked so it is something meaningful rather than being damage resistance.
Something like it absorbs a fixed amount of damage (say 1000 damage per AC?), and gains 2.5x the effectiveness on the tank specs.
I am not sure if this has been raised before but the loss of armor class at module 16 is very concerning, especially in a MMO like Neverwinter. I don't want to state the obvious but normally people wearing big armors are more protected than people running fabric clothes. And on the flip side, they normally deal less damage.
Now even people with big armors (in the old system paladins/gf, then gwf/dc etc) are naked-like because their armor is like a transmute when it comes to the added resistance to damage.
This is not compatible with D&D spirit and it is really a downgrade as it is not logical.
For the sake of balancing the damage, I understand that you wanted to focus on featsxpowersxweapon damagexpower magnitudexpower cooldown blabla to make dps on an equal footing. Regardless of the class.
In order to fix this simply (I don't know how easy it is), I would suggest to keep armors with "neutral" default armor class as they are currently on preview BUT you can add another special pair of feats before the class feats: this new pair would make you choose to have a "default" armor (zero added resistance but more damage) or a "class" armor (e.g 14 for paladin) that will add more resistance. Or the other way around.
Armor Class in Neverwinter effectively adds 0.5% (200 defense) damage reduction per point. It isn't really an important factor at all.
Don't shatter my dreams of roleplaying ! Seriously, even if the CA bonus is not so relevant, it contributes to the feeling of a class and to the character creation and identity. Same for the initial preset ability points: even if each point of abilility is only a 0.25% bonus, for some classes, the points are in dire need of being placed in the correct updated categories (e.g SW needs intelligence as primary; same applies for DC whose abilities rolls are messed up..). Also some new functions (combined ratings for example) could have been worded differently for the casual people: combined rating could have been named "gear bonus stat"
Any small changes could improve the perception of the new module.
EDIT: about the combined ratings, I didn't check since last patch but the % was too strong imo (or else the new gear is too strong).
Having the AC show up as a indicator of your total defences sounds right.
Not that happy that +1 in offensive stats mean nothing until reach the target number N Would had prefered if offensive stat = 0 gave min value and offensive stat = 2N gave max value i.e 5% crit for 0 and 50% for 2N
Hope they can make so our classes primary/secondary stats also is useful stats for that class.
Just a general post for anyone wanting to know how these work:
If you want to know what to stack, the order of importance (in short is:
Armor Penetration until capped.
Accuracy until capped.
Power.
You only want to invest in crit and combat advantage if you can stack a lot of either of them and in general you only want to stack 1 of them, the other should be at 0. If you do not have more then 106% crit severity, combat advantage should always be better.
We need to cap at 24000 of each; armpen, acc, in order to nullify their defensive stats, right? being crit and CA the exception with, maybe over 40000 to boost our offensive with better outcomes ? do you know if they have other % values?
Is the Stronghold XP Boon supposed to affect enchantment Utility bonuses? Specifically Gold Bonus and XP Bonus.
Character level 80, Guild Hall 20 With the XP Boon: Radiant, Rank 15 provides 44% Gold Bonus Without the XP Boon: Radiant, Rank 15 provides 35% Gold Bonus
Character level 76, No Guild Radiant, Rank 15 provides 30% Gold Bonus
I also have pre-70 characters that show different bonuses but I don't have Rank 15 info for those characters.
EDIT: After some further testing, Prosperity Mount Insignias also affect enchantment Utility bonuses (Gold and XP).
Post edited by mdarkangel#4696 on
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited March 2019
IT meant to be worse than the masterwork necklace? Action point Increase by 4 or increase by 4%?
What percent is Deflect Severity defaulted at now?
50%.
THANK YOU!!! Unfortunately thats really messed up. Very inequitable stat values.
At level 80:
49,000 Deflection points = 50% deflection, which lets 75% of damage pass through it. 64,000 Defense points = 80% defense, which lets 20% of damage pass through it.
I think they should:
Set a 70% Cap for Defense and Deflection. and when Deflection succeeds.... "miss/evasion" (50% chance) or "Half damage" (50% chance).
This would make stat values in Defense & Deflection equally valuable, because even though Deflection would reduce only 75% as much damage as equal Defense, it would also sometimes evade secondary control effects that Defense can not. With both of them capped, they would block a combined total of 85.75% of player directed damage.
If something similar is not done, every player will stack everything into defense. Everyone is only gonna slot 90% Azure and Dark enchantments. It will be a trainwreck.
Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
What percent is Deflect Severity defaulted at now?
50%.
THANK YOU!!! Unfortunately thats really messed up. Very inequitable stat values.
At level 80:
49,000 Deflection points = 50% deflection, which lets 75% of damage pass through it. 64,000 Defense points = 80% defense, which lets 20% of damage pass through it.
I think they should:
Set a 70% Cap for Defense and Deflection. and when Deflection succeeds.... "miss/evasion" (50% chance) or "Half damage" (50% chance).
This would make stat values in Defense & Deflection equally valuable, because even though Deflection would reduce only 75% as much damage as equal Defense, it would also sometimes evade secondary control effects, that Defense can not. With both of them capped, they would block a combined total of 85.75% of total damage taken.
The smart thing to do is say +1 stat point is not +1 stat point.
So for an ilevel X enchantment, the +Defense would be lower than the +Deflect for the same rank enchantment.
BUT NOPE.
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lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
Just a general post for anyone wanting to know how these work:
If you want to know what to stack, the order of importance (in short is:
Armor Penetration until capped.
Accuracy until capped.
Power.
You only want to invest in crit and combat advantage if you can stack a lot of either of them and in general you only want to stack 1 of them, the other should be at 0. If you do not have more then 106% crit severity, combat advantage should always be better.
We need to cap at 24000 of each; armpen, acc, in order to nullify their defensive stats, right? being crit and CA the exception with, maybe over 40000 to boost our offensive with better outcomes ? do you know if they have other % values?
some dev sid earlier that for level 80 content you would need those amount fo stats to get 100% eficiency.
Just a general post for anyone wanting to know how these work:
If you want to know what to stack, the order of importance (in short is:
Armor Penetration until capped.
Accuracy until capped.
Power.
You only want to invest in crit and combat advantage if you can stack a lot of either of them and in general you only want to stack 1 of them, the other should be at 0. If you do not have more then 106% crit severity, combat advantage should always be better.
We need to cap at 24000 of each; armpen, acc, in order to nullify their defensive stats, right? being crit and CA the exception with, maybe over 40000 to boost our offensive with better outcomes ? do you know if they have other % values?
some dev sid earlier that for level 80 content you would need those amount fo stats to get 100% eficiency.
Congrats. Those are near-perfect stats. Did you use 100% Azure enchantments & Profane Runestones?
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lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
@zimxero#8085 those stats were provided by a dev. HE also said that it's the max value you can reach in each of those stats. IMO, we can't reach all of those numbers, just because we don't have that much to spend. But you never know. Maybe we can reach the most part of it, maybe not.
Avestruz.Q.T.Seduz - Rogue, natural born assassin.
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lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
First time I loaded on the preview server and I traded in enchants to reach a new balance, I was able to achieve 24k arpen/acc 56K+ crit and I had 60k+ power and 40k combat adv with the gear I had. I was not even BiS. I had mostly rank 11 and 12 enchantments, 14k iL on live. 10 levels later and I have more power and combat adv and I was looking at more defensive gear to cap those stats out too. I don't feel like there is this choice we have to make regarding what to focus on in regards to stats. In fact it seems easier now to cap out just by having rank 10s and gear handed out by leveling quests.
Undermountain is a leveling area which means we need to balance between players freshly leveling up being able to survive and more experienced/better geared players still having some challenge. This does mean the area will be a bit easier for very well geared/upgraded players.
All of that said we have regularly tried adjustments in different directions in order to find the right balance and there is still room to adjust stats more.
For the Catacombs a player would need the following to truly max out:
Correct me if I am wrong, but that isn't the best way to "max out". I am not trying to be pessimistic here, I truly enjoy Mod 16 and am looking forward to it. I am going to ignore the defensive ratings as I am focused on "maxing out" a DPS character's potential here. Please help me understand if there is something I am missing.
Min/maxing your character is not the same as maxing out the effectiveness of a stat.
My post was in response to someone discussing maxing out the potential of each rating, those are the values to achieve that. That doesn't suggest how someone should build out their character to maximize the effectiveness for their play style.
Here are the original post and some explanation about those numbers...
Avestruz.Q.T.Seduz - Rogue, natural born assassin.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Those numbers are incorrect for LoMM, for that you need 32000+whatever amount required to reach the cap. So as follows:
Combat Advantage - 77000
Defense - 72000
Deflect - 57000
Critical Strike - 54500
Armor Penetration - 32000
Critical Resistance - 34500
Awareness - 37000
Accuracy - 32000
And I get tired of repeating this, but the damage bonuses for intelligence and strength do work and provide 0.25% increased damage per rank. It is only a tooltip error. Before reporting it does not, please check with the 1000 damage weapons on an attack that will not round down to the same value, so preferably something that hits really hard (example, smite on Paladin or Ice Knife on Wizard).
Just a general post for anyone wanting to know how these work:
If you want to know what to stack, the order of importance (in short is:
Armor Penetration until capped.
Accuracy until capped.
Power.
You only want to invest in crit and combat advantage if you can stack a lot of either of them and in general you only want to stack 1 of them, the other should be at 0. If you do not have more then 106% crit severity, combat advantage should always be better.
We need to cap at 24000 of each; armpen, acc, in order to nullify their defensive stats, right? being crit and CA the exception with, maybe over 40000 to boost our offensive with better outcomes ? do you know if they have other % values?
some dev sid earlier that for level 80 content you would need those amount fo stats to get 100% eficiency.
Those numbers are incorrect for LoMM, for that you need 32000+whatever amount required to reach the cap. So as follows:
Combat Advantage - 77000
Defense - 72000
Deflect - 57000
Critical Strike - 54500
Armor Penetration - 32000
Critical Resistance - 34500
Awareness - 37000
Accuracy - 32000
And I get tired of repeating this, but the damage bonuses for intelligence and strength do work and provide 0.25% increased damage per rank. It is only a tooltip error. Before reporting it does not, please check with the 1000 damage weapons on an attack that will not round down to the same value, so preferably something that hits really hard (example, smite on Paladin or Ice Knife on Wizard).
I checked your math. All the numbers are correct for 32k difficulty. Personally, for CW, i am considering sticking all points into CON, DEX, and CHA. The .25% damage increase just isn't enough to take INT.
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The issue isn't that any of the systems that have been either tried and tested over the 40+ years of D&D or have just been suggested by players here are bad. There are loads of ways of giving players options in character creation that can offer flexibility while maintaining a balance of numbers.
The issue is convincing the Powers That Be, that having choice and variability in the 6 prime stats at the point of creation is realy important to some people.
That forcing people to have a fixed set of stats, some sets of which are directly contradictory to the way the classes should be organised, is just a terrible way to do things.
Not everyone, some people don't care as long as their character is efficient and balanced, but a lot of people want the choice.
For some people that is because they want to decide how their combat modifiers are assigned, (maybe based on their style of play, maybe because they like to experiment), and for others its because they want to have the right "feel" for the character they want to play, ( even if that is only to maintain the illusion that the game IS based on Dungeons and Dragons.)
Either way, it is a cornerstone of the D&D game and should be kept.
Until TPTB get that, I'm afraid we are at a bit of an impasse.
Until we get them to see that there is a problem, they won't be interested in any number of offered solutions to it.
http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cmuvkBY3iWazDJzY3jgRxjqgzATrwsFAvYP09ME7GpM/edit?usp=sharing
So the game proves that implementation close to D&D rules is possible in MMORPG context.
Unless you run combat in a P&P along the lines of "You can attack as often and as fast as you can roll the dice, calculate the outcome and quickly roll again" then the D&D combat system is inherently removed from real time action combat in a computer game.
Even in the fairly clumsy combat of DDO, player skill is a factor.
I don't want to state the obvious but normally people wearing big armors are more protected than people running fabric clothes. And on the flip side, they normally deal less damage.
Now even people with big armors (in the old system paladins/gf, then gwf/dc etc) are naked-like because their armor is like a transmute when it comes to the added resistance to damage.
This is not compatible with D&D spirit and it is really a downgrade as it is not logical.
For the sake of balancing the damage, I understand that you wanted to focus on featsxpowersxweapon damagexpower magnitudexpower cooldown blabla to make dps on an equal footing.
Regardless of the class.
In order to fix this simply (I don't know how easy it is), I would suggest to keep armors with "neutral" default armor class as they are currently on preview BUT you can add another special pair of feats before the class feats: this new pair would make you choose to have a "default" armor (zero added resistance but more damage) or a "class" armor (e.g 14 for paladin) that will add more resistance. Or the other way around.
Calculate it using the Neverwinter functional equivalencies of the Defensive Main Ratings (Defense, Deflect , Critical Avoidance and Awareness). AC would display as 10 + 1 per full 10,000 points in each Defensive Main Rating.
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And in 5E, Mage Armor + Dex 20 (max dex) is just as much AC as Plate Armor.
So I don't think there's really any leg to stand on that plate armor should be stronger than cloth armor. "Tank" armor should be more defensive than non-tank armor, but that's not a function of it being plate or not.
AC has changed a lot across the years.
It used to be that AC 10 was terrible, the worst you could get, and -10 was the ultimate.
Even back then Bracers of Defence AC3 allowed anyone to strut around in their underwear as if they were wearing Plate Mail.
While I have to say that I'm less concerned about it's disappearance from NWO than I am about the character creation "fixed stats" fiasco, I have to say that Armour Class is another of those iconic things from D&D that I'm really sorry to lose.
It would be nice in this era of making stuff simple for us dullards, if AC could be retooled within the new framework, to perhaps act as a general indicator of where the character is at from a Defence point of view?
Don't ask me how, I'd defer that sort of thing to someone with a firm grasp on how the numbers work, like @thefabricant but having that little "AC" Shield in the Character Sheet just feels right.
Something like it absorbs a fixed amount of damage (say 1000 damage per AC?), and gains 2.5x the effectiveness on the tank specs.
Seriously, even if the CA bonus is not so relevant, it contributes to the feeling of a class and to the character creation and identity.
Same for the initial preset ability points: even if each point of abilility is only a 0.25% bonus, for some classes, the points are in dire need of being placed in the correct updated categories (e.g SW needs intelligence as primary; same applies for DC whose abilities rolls are messed up..).
Also some new functions (combined ratings for example) could have been worded differently for the casual people: combined rating could have been named "gear bonus stat"
Any small changes could improve the perception of the new module.
EDIT: about the combined ratings, I didn't check since last patch but the % was too strong imo (or else the new gear is too strong).
Not that happy that +1 in offensive stats mean nothing until reach the target number N
Would had prefered if offensive stat = 0 gave min value and offensive stat = 2N gave max value
i.e 5% crit for 0 and 50% for 2N
Hope they can make so our classes primary/secondary stats also is useful stats for that class.
What percent is Deflect Severity defaulted at now?
Character level 80, Guild Hall 20
With the XP Boon: Radiant, Rank 15 provides 44% Gold Bonus
Without the XP Boon: Radiant, Rank 15 provides 35% Gold Bonus
Character level 76, No Guild
Radiant, Rank 15 provides 30% Gold Bonus
I also have pre-70 characters that show different bonuses but I don't have Rank 15 info for those characters.
EDIT: After some further testing, Prosperity Mount Insignias also affect enchantment Utility bonuses (Gold and XP).
IT meant to be worse than the masterwork necklace?
Action point Increase by 4 or increase by 4%?
Unfortunately thats really messed up. Very inequitable stat values.
At level 80:
49,000 Deflection points = 50% deflection, which lets 75% of damage pass through it.
64,000 Defense points = 80% defense, which lets 20% of damage pass through it.
I think they should:
Set a 70% Cap for Defense and Deflection.
and when Deflection succeeds.... "miss/evasion" (50% chance) or "Half damage" (50% chance).
This would make stat values in Defense & Deflection equally valuable, because even though Deflection would reduce only 75% as much damage as equal Defense, it would also sometimes evade secondary control effects that Defense can not. With both of them capped, they would block a combined total of 85.75% of player directed damage.
If something similar is not done, every player will stack everything into defense. Everyone is only gonna slot 90% Azure and Dark enchantments. It will be a trainwreck.
So for an ilevel X enchantment, the +Defense would be lower than the +Deflect for the same rank enchantment.
BUT NOPE.
Combat Advantage = 69,000
Defense = 64,000
Deflect = 49,000
Critical Strike = 46,500
Armor Pen = 24,000
Critical Resist = 26,500
Awareness = 29,000
Accuracy = 24,000
Here are the original post and some explanation about those numbers...
- Combat Advantage - 77000
- Defense - 72000
- Deflect - 57000
- Critical Strike - 54500
- Armor Penetration - 32000
- Critical Resistance - 34500
- Awareness - 37000
- Accuracy - 32000
And I get tired of repeating this, but the damage bonuses for intelligence and strength do work and provide 0.25% increased damage per rank. It is only a tooltip error. Before reporting it does not, please check with the 1000 damage weapons on an attack that will not round down to the same value, so preferably something that hits really hard (example, smite on Paladin or Ice Knife on Wizard).