The 30% damage reduction for Vanguard is a hot topic. One thing I would say is I don't see a trade-off, Vanguard does not receive any extra defenses in exchange for giving up 30% damage. If everyone is getting their defensive capabilities primarily from stats will we see parties running without a tank?
You know what would have been great to differentiate tanks' defenses from the non tanks?
Armor class.
Too bad it was removed from the game for some weird reason...
First of all, you cant disclaim that tanks in your picture need more stats then any dps class. Sure you do not need to max all of them at once as you mentioned, but since dps classes can choose to abandon defensive stats completly its obvious that tanks are in disadvanage here as they cant trade offensive stats for defensive once completly. No one expect a Wizard to tank, but Paladins and Fighter are expected to do so, if on tank spec. That alone in natural way substract substantial amount of avilable statistic points from offensive stats pool of tanks. And you cant deny that with every new zone/mobs rating increase it will be growing disparity. And its really not important if you run BIS toon or middle or low IL one. Disparity still exist here.
I wonder how much such demanded distribution is decreasing tanks damage output. If you want tanks to be just 30% behind pure dps I wont be suprised if that distribution alone do the trick. But you decided to grab even 30% more with adding that class mechanic. I am not sayin that it can be even larger gap between tanks and dps classes with damage output- it should be, but only when tanks would be rewarded with some other way. And I am sorry to say that but you offer nothing in return.
I wont be suprised if lets say 16k IL Wizard who puts some points in defensive stats (like capping DR) would be overall more damage proof than 14k IL tank who wont cap defensive stats. If there is no some behind a scene mechanics out there, statistics distribution is only thing witch differs tanks form dpses atm. Shield alone is not good enaugh, especialy when all Tab mechanics are nothing more but a joke. Want to keep that mechanic with -30% dps reduction – fine, keep it, or even increase it, but add to that + 5% for all defensive stats and +20% more HP tanks only role bonus? Let us feel like tanks! As for now we are not tanks – we are just weaker dps classes here.
Sure threat multiplayer should slove grabbing/holding aggro issue – but for now its not working - waiting for a update here.But, having hard taunt in current situation is not that bad idea –as daily maybe? Currently we hardly have an option to hold agrro not to mention a moments of heavy burst from dps. Yes, I do agree that it should be a tank job to be ready and retake aggro if needed – but as for now we have no toll to do that. Sure there is a skill putting you on top of agro, but its on coll down and if you are supposed to run with 3dps party, and of those guys gona be on your IL level (no to mention higher level) and competent players – good luck with that. I am aware that properly working aggro holding system should finally work as a team aggro menagement - dpses should watch not to over dops target and tanks
And cos of issue mentioned above it will be returning problem with every new MOD incereasing enemy ratings. As dps classes would increase their dmg output while tanks would need to fill gaps in their defences first. Anything left for offensive stats would be worth -30% less so.... thats encouraging.....
I am aware that need of creation of 3 distinguished from each other tank classes at same time is a hard task as those clases have to basicaly do the same job using 3 different methods. (I really wonder why you gave a Barbarian tank spec) If any of those will be weaker at same level players will quickly become angry and will abandon such class. And lets not forget that even if you gona create large numbers of skills and distribute those between tanks there need to be a place to use them in-game. As I said its hard job for you to do here but some global idea of tanking is necesery to be implemented first across a board before you gona do the tweaks for any class. For now I cant see that idea, and even if there is one, I can hardly see it implemented at current state of test server.
Hey @gripnir78 I brought up the issue with tanks needing more stats than others back on page 5 I think, so you're not the only one worried about this issue. You forgot to mention the removal of Armor Class as another reason tanks will need to stack more stats to be effective.
The Combined stats makes it less of an issue especially at higher item levels, and I believe I saw Sharp mention somewhere that Crit Resistance and Avoidance are mostly a non-issue in PVE, but I'm thinking newer tank players will struggle more than their dps and healer counterparts.
Yup - actually in my guild you wont find any GF or GWF who would choose to go tank spec after MOD16 most cant see a point as every class would have same high defensive stats value. I guess OPs gona go tanking now as none of them want to be a designated healers
Belive me or not I had tank spec all that time and it was usefull on many ocasion and far superion to Swordmaster vanilla lol build. But after MOD 16 if I still be around I definietly have no reason to play Vanguard. In comapre to Dreadnought - you cant fill more tanky, you just feel you are so much weaker, slower, clumsy with bunch of lol skills/feats and the most ridiculous mechanic in history of MMOs on top. Wanna play unrewarding class spec - go Fighter Vanguard
In mod 16 with all the changes to the class, OP's gonna reroll for DPS a not take tanking path for sure
> > With every class having the same defensive and offensive stats available fighter becomes pretty much a useless class in Mod 16. Paladins become the tank and there is zero benefit to playing a DPS that isn't ranged. I'm still playing while holding out hope that they scrap most of the Mod 16 changes.
>
>
>
> What does Paladin do better than Fighter atm?
>
> I belive he means that Paladins do not have the dps spec. So tanking is the only options for them unless they wanna heal. So while for a Fighter tank path is a joke, all of us would go Dreadnaught. That would leva all tanking for Paladins unless some Barbarians would like to tank but I never heard one of them wanting that..
>
> So its not about Paladin being better thank, its that no1 else would choose this path.
I have no problems at all tanking with my Vanguard. For solo play I do ofc switch to my Dreadnaught loadout.
What exactly makes you say tank path is a joke?
Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
> > With every class having the same defensive and offensive stats available fighter becomes pretty much a useless class in Mod 16. Paladins become the tank and there is zero benefit to playing a DPS that isn't ranged. I'm still playing while holding out hope that they scrap most of the Mod 16 changes.
>
>
>
> What does Paladin do better than Fighter atm?
>
> I belive he means that Paladins do not have the dps spec. So tanking is the only options for them unless they wanna heal. So while for a Fighter tank path is a joke, all of us would go Dreadnaught. That would leva all tanking for Paladins unless some Barbarians would like to tank but I never heard one of them wanting that..
>
> So its not about Paladin being better thank, its that no1 else would choose this path.
I have no problems at all tanking with my Vanguard. For solo play I do ofc switch to my Dreadnaught loadout.
What exactly makes you say tank path is a joke?
Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
One reason and one reason alone pug forces 3/1/1 and you can not enter the role as tank if you are Dreadnought and as it is now very few will even consider playing tank so you probably will have an easer time getting into pug random groups as Vanguard and that is the sole and only reason to play Vanguard as it stands now.
Now mind that we do not know how things and if they make mobs hit hard enough keeping aggro on them not to wipe party bunching them together for aoe might force groups to take OP Justice or a Vanguard with aggro enough to get it done.
How Vanguard is going to be able to survive with current block is however another question as it vanish in 1 or 2 hits from boss mobs( and several other minor but that I hope is something that will be adjusted).
The 30% damage reduction for Vanguard is a hot topic. One thing I would say is I don't see a trade-off, Vanguard does not receive any extra defenses in exchange for giving up 30% damage. If everyone is getting their defensive capabilities primarily from stats will we see parties running without a tank?
You know what would have been great to differentiate tanks' defenses from the non tanks?
Armor class.
Too bad it was removed from the game for some weird reason...
Armor class was never tank only toy, if you haven't noticed. It was always part of D&D, on every class.
They removed it, as I guess it simply didn't fit for their new mechanic/counting system.
The only real solution to make a difference between tanks and not tanks, is to make tanks able to cap defences/HP higher then other classes. But then again ,somehow I doubt they are capable of implement that in this new system.
First of all, you cant disclaim that tanks in your picture need more stats then any dps class. Sure you do not need to max all of them at once as you mentioned, but since dps classes can choose to abandon defensive stats completly its obvious that tanks are in disadvanage here as they cant trade offensive stats for defensive once completly. No one expect a Wizard to tank, but Paladins and Fighter are expected to do so, if on tank spec. That alone in natural way substract substantial amount of avilable statistic points from offensive stats pool of tanks. And you cant deny that with every new zone/mobs rating increase it will be growing disparity. And its really not important if you run BIS toon or middle or low IL one. Disparity still exist here.
I wonder how much such demanded distribution is decreasing tanks damage output. If you want tanks to be just 30% behind pure dps I wont be suprised if that distribution alone do the trick. But you decided to grab even 30% more with adding that class mechanic. I am not sayin that it can be even larger gap between tanks and dps classes with damage output- it should be, but only when tanks would be rewarded with some other way. And I am sorry to say that but you offer nothing in return.
I wont be suprised if lets say 16k IL Wizard who puts some points in defensive stats (like capping DR) would be overall more damage proof than 14k IL tank who wont cap defensive stats. If there is no some behind a scene mechanics out there, statistics distribution is only thing witch differs tanks form dpses atm. Shield alone is not good enaugh, especialy when all Tab mechanics are nothing more but a joke. Want to keep that mechanic with -30% dps reduction – fine, keep it, or even increase it, but add to that + 5% for all defensive stats and +20% more HP tanks only role bonus? Let us feel like tanks! As for now we are not tanks – we are just weaker dps classes here.
Sure threat multiplayer should slove grabbing/holding aggro issue – but for now its not working - waiting for a update here.But, having hard taunt in current situation is not that bad idea –as daily maybe? Currently we hardly have an option to hold agrro not to mention a moments of heavy burst from dps. Yes, I do agree that it should be a tank job to be ready and retake aggro if needed – but as for now we have no toll to do that. Sure there is a skill putting you on top of agro, but its on coll down and if you are supposed to run with 3dps party, and of those guys gona be on your IL level (no to mention higher level) and competent players – good luck with that. I am aware that properly working aggro holding system should finally work as a team aggro menagement - dpses should watch not to over dops target and tanks
And cos of issue mentioned above it will be returning problem with every new MOD incereasing enemy ratings. As dps classes would increase their dmg output while tanks would need to fill gaps in their defences first. Anything left for offensive stats would be worth -30% less so.... thats encouraging.....
I am aware that need of creation of 3 distinguished from each other tank classes at same time is a hard task as those clases have to basicaly do the same job using 3 different methods. (I really wonder why you gave a Barbarian tank spec) If any of those will be weaker at same level players will quickly become angry and will abandon such class. And lets not forget that even if you gona create large numbers of skills and distribute those between tanks there need to be a place to use them in-game. As I said its hard job for you to do here but some global idea of tanking is necesery to be implemented first across a board before you gona do the tweaks for any class. For now I cant see that idea, and even if there is one, I can hardly see it implemented at current state of test server.
Hey @gripnir78 I brought up the issue with tanks needing more stats than others back on page 5 I think, so you're not the only one worried about this issue. You forgot to mention the removal of Armor Class as another reason tanks will need to stack more stats to be effective.
The Combined stats makes it less of an issue especially at higher item levels, and I believe I saw Sharp mention somewhere that Crit Resistance and Avoidance are mostly a non-issue in PVE, but I'm thinking newer tank players will struggle more than their dps and healer counterparts.
Yup - actually in my guild you wont find any GF or GWF who would choose to go tank spec after MOD16 most cant see a point as every class would have same high defensive stats value. I guess OPs gona go tanking now as none of them want to be a designated healers
Belive me or not I had tank spec all that time and it was usefull on many ocasion and far superion to Swordmaster vanilla lol build. But after MOD 16 if I still be around I definietly have no reason to play Vanguard. In comapre to Dreadnought - you cant fill more tanky, you just feel you are so much weaker, slower, clumsy with bunch of lol skills/feats and the most ridiculous mechanic in history of MMOs on top. Wanna play unrewarding class spec - go Fighter Vanguard
In mod 16 with all the changes to the class, OP's gonna reroll for DPS a not take tanking path for sure
In MOD16 OPs do not have DPS path at all, so....
I know that Paladin does not have dps path. It's my main btw. My point was that they will move to a different class, because the paladin is now garbage compared to live server
> @gripnir78 said: > > @gripnir78 said: > > > > @fanlaar#4089 said: > > > > > > > With every class having the same defensive and offensive stats available fighter becomes pretty much a useless class in Mod 16. Paladins become the tank and there is zero benefit to playing a DPS that isn't ranged. I'm still playing while holding out hope that they scrap most of the Mod 16 changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > What does Paladin do better than Fighter atm? > > > > > > I belive he means that Paladins do not have the dps spec. So tanking is the only options for them unless they wanna heal. So while for a Fighter tank path is a joke, all of us would go Dreadnaught. That would leva all tanking for Paladins unless some Barbarians would like to tank but I never heard one of them wanting that.. > > > > > > So its not about Paladin being better thank, its that no1 else would choose this path. > > > > I have no problems at all tanking with my Vanguard. For solo play I do ofc switch to my Dreadnaught loadout. > > What exactly makes you say tank path is a joke? > > Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
If the party doesn't need a tank, then why not just swap to Dreadnaught loadout?
Elite Whaleboy
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> > > With every class having the same defensive and offensive stats available fighter becomes pretty much a useless class in Mod 16. Paladins become the tank and there is zero benefit to playing a DPS that isn't ranged. I'm still playing while holding out hope that they scrap most of the Mod 16 changes.
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> >
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> >
>
> >
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> > What does Paladin do better than Fighter atm?
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> >
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> > I belive he means that Paladins do not have the dps spec. So tanking is the only options for them unless they wanna heal. So while for a Fighter tank path is a joke, all of us would go Dreadnaught. That would leva all tanking for Paladins unless some Barbarians would like to tank but I never heard one of them wanting that..
>
> >
>
> > So its not about Paladin being better thank, its that no1 else would choose this path.
>
>
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> I have no problems at all tanking with my Vanguard. For solo play I do ofc switch to my Dreadnaught loadout.
>
> What exactly makes you say tank path is a joke?
>
> Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
If the party doesn't need a tank, then why not just swap to Dreadnaught loadout?
Because Dreadnaught will be labeled as DPS in public/random Q. And Asterdahl was very clear that you cannot swap roles. Therefore Dreadnaught is a better tank then Vanguard but CANNOT fill the tank role in most group content. You have to take a Tank Pally or Tank barby. Y=
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Went through TONG on preview as both Vanguard and Dreadnought.
BUG: In TONG orcus fight, Dig In does not prevent knockback. This is also true of a few control spells. Yuan-Ti charm, I stay in dig in, but it seems to bug it out a bit. I can't cancel it easily, and I can't do anything if feared while dug in.
@asterdahl , I know you said you're working on the animation, so that's hopefully going to help here. Right now, Dig in is a bit too clunky and gets bugged. If we could reduce the animation time and make getting into, and out of Dig in more responsive, it would help significantly with some of the dig in issues IMO.
BUG: In level scaled dungeons, I can’t access some of the abilities, like shield slam or determination. I’m assuming this is due to something wrong with the dungeon scaling:
For Dig In: The changes to increase DR, remove CA from enemies, and boost stamina regen has helped a bit. But it's still too situational to be used as a "TAB" mechanic. It's getting there though. There needs to be some sort of an aggro mechanic to it to hold. Something that it does. Maybe it pulses aggro out or does a small amount of damage in an AOE? Honestly, just making Dig in near instant to activate and deactivate would make it more useful in more scenarios. Also need a clearer warning sign if it stops due to the Stamina being fully drained. It leaves you in a weird state, so you're just standing there, no shield, and everything murders you pretty quick.
Maybe we could do something like the second Dig In breaks due to stamina dropping you get some DR for a few seconds, and you're immune to movement effects so you can get out of there and reposition? Right now, I find Dig In to be moderately useful, but the second it breaks, there's almost no feedback and I get murdered pretty quick.
For Threat: Overall, the changes to threat have been pretty good. I still find it incredibly difficult in a multi-mob encounter to tell when someone is pulling threat from me without hovering my reticle over every mob. Not very precise, and with the chaos and mob/character snapping due to lag/graphics stuff, very unpredictable.
If I could see my own threat bar over each of the mobs while I'm in tank mode, that would be, I mean, that would be huge! It would probably alleviate a lot of my threat issues right now. It's not that it's impossible to get threat back, or hold it (with Anvil + passive, and ET, I find this to be pretty straightforward most times), it's that I can't keep up with the aggro changing so quickly around me with multiple mobs. It's a lot more straightforward in a boss fight. Not as big of a deal. But in normal dungeon crawling, seeing my threat above each Mob's HP bar would be a godsend to tanking.
For sustain: Even with a healer healing me, I found it difficult to tank and stay alive in some encounters. This might be due to the damage scaling not being right in dungeons yet, but the stamina regen passive really needs a boost. I'm not getting nearly enough stamina back in between boss swings during boss fights. I find myself having to use Dig In just to regenerate stamina so I don't die. But then I'm not being active in the fight, just sort of standing there like an idiot waiting for the DPS to pull aggro off me again so I can Anvil or ET it right back. I'm assuming that's not the intended playstyle, correct? If so, I think our options are to reduce damage taken somehow with shield down, or provide a better mechanism to get stamina back. The passive just isn’t fast enough. I can’t hold aggro and generate stamina fast enough to keep blocking during a boss fight.
For DPS: In general, this wasn’t too bad in TONG. Other than the fact that the vorpal enchant is scaling all wrong (I posted in another thread), it’s actually pretty enjoyable. We’re getting closer to a good place with Dreadnought for DPS imo, so your hard work isn’t going unappreciated. Your bug fix to ITF works btw. If I’m >50% vengeance, it no longer drains me down to 50%. There was a few bugs where I couldn’t get party members with it, even when they were only about 10’ away, but it was infrequent, and not enough details there to help you out to troubleshoot.
There’s some meh feats to choose from, and we’re still locked into a specific choice/path, so I don’t think dreadnought will have a lot of variation in playstyle. Griffons Wrath is still bugged, and like others have said, that final animation is brutal. We could really do with shortening that. That’s a lot of time to spend in the air about to be hit. It runs counter to the fast reaction “Riposte with our shield” idea I think you’ve got for Dreadnought. That’s a ton of time I’m getting hit just to do a meh amount of damage for the final hit. I find myself shield canceling it and only ever using the first two swings so I don’t die while using the third.
Other than that, I think the improvements being made are steady and moving in the right direction.
Again, if one thing from my post stands out that would help (for all classes), it would be to see your threat meter against mobs above their health bar. But especially for tanks. This will help us feel like we can monitor, protect, and control fights and feel like we’re “tanking” instead of watching party members dying without having a chance to react and pull something off them in time.
Thanks for your hard work so far! Anxious to see what the next round of patches holds!
To be clear, I do not specifically intend for Dreadnought to seek out and take hits to build their DPS, if they are going to get hit, such as by an unavoidable whitenoise attack, you definitely can block to get that vengeance boost though. In reality, for group play, you are intended to seethe to maintain your vengeance, and supplement it with blocking when the opportunity arises.
I understand that seethe may not be up everyone's ally. The idea is you are watching your foe from behind your shield, building up a hatred for them before striking them down, this gives dreadnought a unique sort of combat pace when compared with other classes, but the damage boost from vengeance should make it worth it, vengeance does build up fairly quickly when seething.
That said, I will be trying to make sure that vengeance always feels worth building, and that maybe there are some feat options for those who do and do not like the seethe mechanic to modify it in ways that make the pacing feel more comfortable for them.
P.S. It's actually a risk that Dreadnought will become a class that seeks out getting hit by AoEs, and creates a risky and frustrating situation, so we are keeping a careful eye on this, to make sure it doesn't feel necessary to intentionally get hit by mechanics.
Feedback (Consideration?)
I would actually try to theme the feat paths differently to try to address this issue:
Make one path the simpler "deals more damage when attacking", while the other path is themed around a high risk high reward style that is based around getting hit and counter attacking.
The current general theme of "AoE vs. single target" is serviceable and straight forwards, but lacks the flair or differentiation in gameplay style you see on the Ranger's specs (lightning/melee/trapper/archer). I get that Fighter has always been a fairly simple concept as a class, but the changes thus far don't seem to change much about how I play.
If you'd want a concept for how the high risk high reward path would look like, I'm going to steal borrow Sharp's Rogue tank concept in the spoiler below (it's a long read and I'd rather not clutter this page than it needs to be).
Swashbuckler/Duelist (The new path). This is going to be a tank path for rogue. Yep, you heard me, I am mad. A tank. Mechanically, tab will change from stealth to duelist's stance, which is a toggle. While it is active, you move at half of base speed and shift is changed from a dodge to Parry. The way Parry works is as follows:
Perfect Parry: If you press shift within 0.25 seconds of it hitting you, you mitigate 100% of the incoming hit and your cooldowns are reduced by 1 second.
Adequate Parry: If you press shift within 0.25-0.5 seconds of the incoming hit, you mitigate 80% of the incoming hit, then lose stamina proportional to the percentage of hp lost.
Parry: If you press shift within 0.5-1 second of the incoming hit, you mitigate 50% of the incoming hit, then lose stamina proportional to the percentage of hp lost.
If your timing is out by over 1 second, you take full damage and stamina is not consumed.
The way this tank rogue is intended to be played is as a hybrid dps/tank, where it is more squishy then a dps class if it gets hit, but has access to iframes from various sources which must be carefully timed in order to not get hit. The class generates aggro equal to 130% of its damage and unlike other tank classes it does not take a 30% damage penalty. The penalty to playing this class is the much higher skill cap required to play it.
Duelist: Level 1: Feign Death - If an attack would reduce you to 0 hitpoints, instead set you to 40% hitpoints. This can only occur once every 2 minutes. Death Wish - When you drop below 40% hitpoints, gain 25% increased damage for 10 seconds.
Level 2: Uncanny Evasion - Your Immunity Frames last 0.15 seconds longer, but you take 10% increased damage from hits. Brutality - Your Immunity Frames are 0.15 seconds shorter, but you deal 25% increased damage.
Level 3: Infuriating Finesse - Whenever you successfully parry an attack, generate 25% more threat for the next 4 seconds. Collateral Damage - Whenever you successfully parry an attack, deal 20 magnitude damage to all enemies in 10'.
Level 4: Crude Parry - Adequate Parries have the damage reduction of a perfect parry, but perfect parry consumes stamina as if you had performed an Adequate parry. Parry Mastery - You cannot make a normal parry but perfect riposte's cause your next 4 hits automatically critical hit.
Level 5: Risky Actions - Taking a single hit for more than 35% of your hitpoints increases your damage by 20% for 6 seconds and reduces your cooldowns by 3 seconds. Defensive Posture - Lose 5% less stamina and take 5% less damage when you perform a normal riposte.
Class Features:
Dazzling Blades - Take and deal 5% increased damage. Your at wills generate 10% more threat.
Intuition - Taking a hit grants you intuition, reducing the damage from that hit by 20% and reducing hits for the next 6 seconds by 10%, then going on cooldown for 14 seconds.
Counterstrike - 30% chance to deal 200 magnitude damage when you iframe or parry an attack.
Long Winded - Lose 10% less stamina when you adequate or normal parry.
Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
Have you tried that, or are you just saying that?
You cannot tank as Dreadnought end game. Not very well. The aggro mechanics are all wrong, you have no way to pull aggro from a squishy. You have those tools as Vanguard.
Additionally, you will die faster. I know everyone's been giving Dig In a lot of flak, and to be fair, it needs some work still (Asterdahl is working on it), it's not useless. And Dig in > Seethe for tanking by a lot.
My party did significantly better with me in Vanguard mode, and letting the 3 DPS do their thing, than with me as a terrible tank in Dreadnought providing a 4th DPS that was only about 30-40% more than my Vanguard.
I get that we're all very frustrated with where things are at right now. That doesn't excuse us from repeating other people's assumptions and fears without the data to back it up. Get a 5 man going and do CR, or TONG or FBI on Preview right now. Try and tank as Dreadnought. I found it to be incredibly frustrating. You can't keep people alive, and your healer runs around trying to heal everyone and yells at you for not holding aggro.
In Vanguard, the problems disappeared pretty quick.
There's still work that needs to be done, but your statement is just wrong. Demonstrably wrong.
Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
Have you tried that, or are you just saying that?
You cannot tank as Dreadnought end game. Not very well. The aggro mechanics are all wrong, you have no way to pull aggro from a squishy. You have those tools as Vanguard.
Additionally, you will die faster. I know everyone's been giving Dig In a lot of flak, and to be fair, it needs some work still (Asterdahl is working on it), it's not useless. And Dig in > Seethe for tanking by a lot.
My party did significantly better with me in Vanguard mode, and letting the 3 DPS do their thing, than with me as a terrible tank in Dreadnought providing a 4th DPS that was only about 30-40% more than my Vanguard.
I get that we're all very frustrated with where things are at right now. That doesn't excuse us from repeating other people's assumptions and fears without the data to back it up. Get a 5 man going and do CR, or TONG or FBI on Preview right now. Try and tank as Dreadnought. I found it to be incredibly frustrating. You can't keep people alive, and your healer runs around trying to heal everyone and yells at you for not holding aggro.
In Vanguard, the problems disappeared pretty quick.
There's still work that needs to be done, but your statement is just wrong. Demonstrably wrong.
oh I tried and my experience is not the same and 90+% of the others that tried has not either, don´t ger me wrong I am happy for your sake I am just not convinced by 1 player and that that player discovered something everybody else missed ).
Best
1
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
To be clear, I do not specifically intend for Dreadnought to seek out and take hits to build their DPS, if they are going to get hit, such as by an unavoidable whitenoise attack, you definitely can block to get that vengeance boost though. In reality, for group play, you are intended to seethe to maintain your vengeance, and supplement it with blocking when the opportunity arises.
I understand that seethe may not be up everyone's ally. The idea is you are watching your foe from behind your shield, building up a hatred for them before striking them down, this gives dreadnought a unique sort of combat pace when compared with other classes, but the damage boost from vengeance should make it worth it, vengeance does build up fairly quickly when seething.
That said, I will be trying to make sure that vengeance always feels worth building, and that maybe there are some feat options for those who do and do not like the seethe mechanic to modify it in ways that make the pacing feel more comfortable for them.
P.S. It's actually a risk that Dreadnought will become a class that seeks out getting hit by AoEs, and creates a risky and frustrating situation, so we are keeping a careful eye on this, to make sure it doesn't feel necessary to intentionally get hit by mechanics.
Feedback (Consideration?)
I would actually try to theme the feat paths differently to try to address this issue:
Make one path the simpler "deals more damage when attacking", while the other path is themed around a high risk high reward style that is based around getting hit and counter attacking.
The current general theme of "AoE vs. single target" is serviceable and straight forwards, but lacks the flair or differentiation in gameplay style you see on the Ranger's specs (lightning/melee/trapper/archer). I get that Fighter has always been a fairly simple concept as a class, but the changes thus far don't seem to change much about how I play.
If you'd want a concept for how the high risk high reward path would look like, I'm going to steal borrow Sharp's Rogue tank concept in the spoiler below (it's a long read and I'd rather not clutter this page than it needs to be).
Not a criticism. I am desperate to find a Fighter tank option. I do not want to play DPS.
I read the "tank rogue" reference, still a bit unclear how that would fit with current Fighter tree. Asterdahl wants Dread to seek out opponents, get hit, then hit back even harder; Van (seemingly by intent) is to poke them moderately hard, get hit and survive to poke them more. The latter is not working out well.
My question (and I do have one) : Which feats and encounters in Vanguard could fill the proposed "rogue tank" role?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
Have you tried that, or are you just saying that?
You cannot tank as Dreadnought end game. Not very well. The aggro mechanics are all wrong, you have no way to pull aggro from a squishy. You have those tools as Vanguard.
Additionally, you will die faster. I know everyone's been giving Dig In a lot of flak, and to be fair, it needs some work still (Asterdahl is working on it), it's not useless. And Dig in > Seethe for tanking by a lot.
My party did significantly better with me in Vanguard mode, and letting the 3 DPS do their thing, than with me as a terrible tank in Dreadnought providing a 4th DPS that was only about 30-40% more than my Vanguard.
I get that we're all very frustrated with where things are at right now. That doesn't excuse us from repeating other people's assumptions and fears without the data to back it up. Get a 5 man going and do CR, or TONG or FBI on Preview right now. Try and tank as Dreadnought. I found it to be incredibly frustrating. You can't keep people alive, and your healer runs around trying to heal everyone and yells at you for not holding aggro.
In Vanguard, the problems disappeared pretty quick.
There's still work that needs to be done, but your statement is just wrong. Demonstrably wrong.
He was indeed wrong that you could run party PvE content as Dread-Tank. He was correct in that Dread (based solely on my 2 week preview experience) appears to hold aggro better then Vanguard. Still testing the recent updates.
The aggro dependence on damage is crippling to the Vanguard imo. I get that Asterdahl wants active (instead of passive) threat generation. But threat can be active and NOT DPS based. Let Van be that exception. At least, Vanguard should have some supplement or base multiplier for the damage portion of the threat equation.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
First of all, you cant disclaim that tanks in your picture need more stats then any dps class. Sure you do not need to max all of them at once as you mentioned, but since dps classes can choose to abandon defensive stats completly its obvious that tanks are in disadvanage here as they cant trade offensive stats for defensive once completly. No one expect a Wizard to tank, but Paladins and Fighter are expected to do so, if on tank spec. That alone in natural way substract substantial amount of avilable statistic points from offensive stats pool of tanks. And you cant deny that with every new zone/mobs rating increase it will be growing disparity. And its really not important if you run BIS toon or middle or low IL one. Disparity still exist here.
I wonder how much such demanded distribution is decreasing tanks damage output. If you want tanks to be just 30% behind pure dps I wont be suprised if that distribution alone do the trick. But you decided to grab even 30% more with adding that class mechanic. I am not sayin that it can be even larger gap between tanks and dps classes with damage output- it should be, but only when tanks would be rewarded with some other way. And I am sorry to say that but you offer nothing in return.
I wont be suprised if lets say 16k IL Wizard who puts some points in defensive stats (like capping DR) would be overall more damage proof than 14k IL tank who wont cap defensive stats. If there is no some behind a scene mechanics out there, statistics distribution is only thing witch differs tanks form dpses atm. Shield alone is not good enaugh, especialy when all Tab mechanics are nothing more but a joke. Want to keep that mechanic with -30% dps reduction – fine, keep it, or even increase it, but add to that + 5% for all defensive stats and +20% more HP tanks only role bonus? Let us feel like tanks! As for now we are not tanks – we are just weaker dps classes here.
Sure threat multiplayer should slove grabbing/holding aggro issue – but for now its not working - waiting for a update here.But, having hard taunt in current situation is not that bad idea –as daily maybe? Currently we hardly have an option to hold agrro not to mention a moments of heavy burst from dps. Yes, I do agree that it should be a tank job to be ready and retake aggro if needed – but as for now we have no toll to do that. Sure there is a skill putting you on top of agro, but its on coll down and if you are supposed to run with 3dps party, and of those guys gona be on your IL level (no to mention higher level) and competent players – good luck with that. I am aware that properly working aggro holding system should finally work as a team aggro menagement - dpses should watch not to over dops target and tanks
And cos of issue mentioned above it will be returning problem with every new MOD incereasing enemy ratings. As dps classes would increase their dmg output while tanks would need to fill gaps in their defences first. Anything left for offensive stats would be worth -30% less so.... thats encouraging.....
I am aware that need of creation of 3 distinguished from each other tank classes at same time is a hard task as those clases have to basicaly do the same job using 3 different methods. (I really wonder why you gave a Barbarian tank spec) If any of those will be weaker at same level players will quickly become angry and will abandon such class. And lets not forget that even if you gona create large numbers of skills and distribute those between tanks there need to be a place to use them in-game. As I said its hard job for you to do here but some global idea of tanking is necesery to be implemented first across a board before you gona do the tweaks for any class. For now I cant see that idea, and even if there is one, I can hardly see it implemented at current state of test server.
Hey @gripnir78 I brought up the issue with tanks needing more stats than others back on page 5 I think, so you're not the only one worried about this issue. You forgot to mention the removal of Armor Class as another reason tanks will need to stack more stats to be effective.
The Combined stats makes it less of an issue especially at higher item levels, and I believe I saw Sharp mention somewhere that Crit Resistance and Avoidance are mostly a non-issue in PVE, but I'm thinking newer tank players will struggle more than their dps and healer counterparts.
Yup - actually in my guild you wont find any GF or GWF who would choose to go tank spec after MOD16 most cant see a point as every class would have same high defensive stats value. I guess OPs gona go tanking now as none of them want to be a designated healers
Belive me or not I had tank spec all that time and it was usefull on many ocasion and far superion to Swordmaster vanilla lol build. But after MOD 16 if I still be around I definietly have no reason to play Vanguard. In comapre to Dreadnought - you cant fill more tanky, you just feel you are so much weaker, slower, clumsy with bunch of lol skills/feats and the most ridiculous mechanic in history of MMOs on top. Wanna play unrewarding class spec - go Fighter Vanguard
In mod 16 with all the changes to the class, OP's gonna reroll for DPS a not take tanking path for sure
In MOD16 OPs do not have DPS path at all, so....
I know that Paladin does not have dps path. It's my main btw. My point was that they will move to a different class, because the paladin is now garbage compared to live server
Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
Have you tried that, or are you just saying that?
You cannot tank as Dreadnought end game. Not very well. The aggro mechanics are all wrong, you have no way to pull aggro from a squishy. You have those tools as Vanguard.
Additionally, you will die faster. I know everyone's been giving Dig In a lot of flak, and to be fair, it needs some work still (Asterdahl is working on it), it's not useless. And Dig in > Seethe for tanking by a lot.
My party did significantly better with me in Vanguard mode, and letting the 3 DPS do their thing, than with me as a terrible tank in Dreadnought providing a 4th DPS that was only about 30-40% more than my Vanguard.
I get that we're all very frustrated with where things are at right now. That doesn't excuse us from repeating other people's assumptions and fears without the data to back it up. Get a 5 man going and do CR, or TONG or FBI on Preview right now. Try and tank as Dreadnought. I found it to be incredibly frustrating. You can't keep people alive, and your healer runs around trying to heal everyone and yells at you for not holding aggro.
In Vanguard, the problems disappeared pretty quick.
There's still work that needs to be done, but your statement is just wrong. Demonstrably wrong.
Yes tried that, and belive me its not that hard - simply ask your "squishy" to be as squishy as Sharpeds freind - all caps maxed out both defensive and offensive.
IF and only then Dig In will actually do something it may change, but not untill then.
BTW just finished Mad Mage and funny thing - few times I coudn't even stand up from dig in - it asked me to find target - lol - after last boss I wasnt even able to stand at all (after combat) untill friend popped pinata for me to be able to target it with encounter to release myself. (at wills do not help here) So yeah sure threat menagement is bit better now on Vanguard but thats it. I prefer to do dps for mobs aggro generation, then ending up stuck on my knees....
Not a criticism. I am desperate to find a Fighter tank option. I do not want to play DPS.
I read the "tank rogue" reference, still a bit unclear how that would fit with current Fighter tree. Asterdahl wants Dread to seek out opponents, get hit, then hit back even harder; Van (seemingly by intent) is to poke them moderately hard, get hit and survive to poke them more. The latter is not working out well.
My question (and I do have one) : Which feats and encounters in Vanguard could fill the proposed "rogue tank" role?
The tree was proposed for an entirely different feat path for the Dreadnought's feat trees.The notion was that one Dreadnought feat tree is devoted focused on the counter attacker style similar to now, the other devoted to a more consistent style that doesn't involve you purposely trying to absorb attacks with your shield to generate Vengeance. I just borrowed Sharp's idea just as a reference for an idea on how to implement the high risk high reward counter attacker style.
I also was hoping the feats would become more meaningful with the different themes. If this new system is supposed to have meaningful feats, then most of the feats aren't really meaningful and don't fundamentally shift how you play.
There is nothing in the Fighter's tree that is like the Ranger's Longshot (need to shift your mindset to staying back and picking off enemies from range rather than rushing into melee) or the Wizard's Directed Flames (instead of letting Smolder tick in the background to proc feats and make your powers more powerful, you reverse the idea and use your powers to proc Smolder as often as possible for the damage). Aside from the unique Rising Revenge, almost all of the Dreadnought feats fall under "deal more damage" (or may as well not exist, see the tier 2 Vengeance feats) and simply force you to select certain powers for different occasions.
It works, but it isn't particularly interesting.
In addition, I was thinking about some posts on this thread that didn't really like having to play discount tank in order to deal damage. I can see where they're coming from, as if you try to play Fighter with some semblance of self preservation in a team (ie, let the tank take point and circle behind the enemies so you don't die), you have some awkward pauses in combat to restore your Vengeance. You tell your enemies to take 5, Dig In, and twiddle your thumbs while waiting to be allowed to play again.
It overtly rewards you for running into attacks I can see why people dislike needing to violate common sense to get the most out of the class. This sort of complaint isn't new either, as if you look around, you might find other people that wanted Conqueror GF to gain damage stacks by attacking rather than getting hit (or running into enemy attacks on purpose, which is also encouraged for Conqueror GFs not using the Wraps or the unstable potion DoT).
I was hoping to address all of these notions with the themed feats.
Not sure what the Vanguard feat paths' themes would be, but I sure hope they aren't the un-cohesive mess of damage mitigation, DPS feats, and self healing feats as seen now.
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silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
The aggro dependence on damage is crippling to the Vanguard imo. I get that Asterdahl wants active (instead of passive) threat generation. But threat can be active and NOT DPS based. Let Van be that exception. At least, Vanguard should have some supplement or base multiplier for the damage portion of the threat equation.
Vanguard does have a multiplier for the damage portion of the equation. That's been stated already. Go back through asterdahl's posts in this thread. Essentially, DPS role generates 1 point of threat per 1 point of damage and all Tank roles generate 1.x points of threat per 1 point of damage. Powers labeled as "generates additional threat" generate even more threat per point of damage. They just need to get that x right. It probably needs to be a little higher, and shield and Dig In might need some built-in aggro. But no hard taunts please. Hard taunts are lazy game design and promote lazy playstyles.
As an average player if stats are your metric (just a shade under 13k on live) I have made my snailed pace crawl to 80 albeit a severely painful one as Vanguard(currently 16k+ on preview). I have not seen Ferocious Reaction doing damage at all (maybe I missed it but I reviewed all the damage in my logs..nothing...nada...zilch). If you are intent on keeping Dig in as a pseudo mechanic for Vanguard than please for the love of god enable ferocious reaction to trigger off of guard and dig in among other hopeful adjustments cause right now neither an average run of the mill player or new player will try Vanguard out...hitting like a very limp snail. Buffs for Bull charge to trigger cleave buff are nice except one small issue mob fights have them swarming you melting your HP far to quickly to effectively use it...I'm sensing dreadnought in my future.
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @silvergryph said: > The aggro dependence on damage is crippling to the Vanguard imo. I get that Asterdahl wants active (instead of passive) threat generation. But threat can be active and NOT DPS based. Let Van be that exception. > At least, Vanguard should have some supplement or base multiplier for the damage portion of the threat equation. > > > > Vanguard does have a multiplier for the damage portion of the equation. That's been stated already. Go back through asterdahl's posts in this thread. Essentially, DPS role generates 1 point of threat per 1 point of damage and all Tank roles generate 1.x points of threat per 1 point of damage. Powers labeled as "generates additional threat" generate even more threat per point of damage. They just need to get that x right. It probably needs to be a little higher, and shield and Dig In might need some built-in aggro. But no hard taunts please. Hard taunts are lazy game design and promote lazy playstyles.
Yes, I did read that. It ain't working well. But is not consistently overcoming party DPS. Allow me to clarify my statement:
"Vanguard needs a MEANINGFUL and distinctly EFFECTIVE multiplier, better then what we have seen so far on preview."
I respectfully disagree that all hard taunts are "lazy". Tab Mark was a hard taunt. Nothing lazy about it. Tab Mark required forethought (who to mark first, who next), timing (how often to reapply marks), coordination (avoid reduntant taunts, plan when during rotation to strafe/angle behind shield to add marks) and party awareness (watch for adds in the periphery aggroing teammates and Mark them).
Hard taunts can absolutely require effort and thought. It is a myth that tanking is easy.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
NW life-long support player here since 2013. As my 5 1/2 year-old Fighter-Tank may soon be un/underemployed, spent the past 3 days focusing on Dreadnaught. Some post-update thoughts:
Not a huge fan of the (imo) overuse of linked feat-power-power combos. As many others have said, these links pigeon-hole your load-outs and force unwanted encounters on us. But, the Landwaster-Earthshaker-Shockwave combination feels great. Lots of left-brain strategy involved in forming a vengeance maintenance-to-combo plan. And a very satisfying payoff in the end. But shockwave needs a target visual on the first press like the old "impact". I'm sure that's been said already, But misses alot.
The Brazen/Heavy slash combo is also enjoyable. Seethe works, but breaks the rhythm of a fight by pausing. Overall, I Dreadnaught is quite playable. Much more functional then Vanguard. Pretty much a must-have for solo/quest/dailies, must go Dread not Van. But for group content? I don't want to play DPS. So...
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Not a huge fan of the (imo) overuse of linked feat-power-power combos. As many others have said, these links pigeon-hole your load-outs and force unwanted encounters on us. But, the Landwaster-Earthshaker-Shockwave combination feels great. Lots of left-brain strategy involved in forming a vengeance maintenance-to-combo plan. And a very satisfying payoff in the end. But shockwave needs a target visual on the first press like the old "impact". I'm sure that's been said already, But misses alot.
I agree, the Landwaster is a very unique feat, especially considering that you don't need to slot in Shockwave in your second daily slot for the free choices. My only complaints with the feat are that are auto locked into Earthshaker and that Shockwave has ... targetting issues.
I am actually a bit shocked that other classes don't make use of this combo system outlined by Landwaster, as I can see a bit of potential with this system.
For example, you could have things on Barbarian like using Adamantine Strike followed up by Spinning Strike (the concept could be a feat based around mob destroying daily chains similar to Landwaster, even though I know Spinning Strike isn't well received... ).
I think some more interesting uses could be if a daily attack granted a free use of an encounter power (balanced around the fact that dailies are a rare resource anyways), or if an at-will granted a free use of an encounter power (you would need to tweak the damage on the follow up encounter so it isn't broken), but I don't know if the programming would allow for that (I am guessing it won't?).
I'd also pitch it to noworries. Assuming he isn't buried under a pile of paperwork, I think the more encounter heavy classes he's working on could have some interesting applications for the feats (I am not a Rogue player, but I think those players could imagine a ton of possibilities of this combo system to make up for a lack of reliable cooldown reductions).
I would suggest making geas feat to stun an opponent. That would be pure pvp feat that would satisfy any arbiter. And make chains something that is AOE in pve feat
First of all, you cant disclaim that tanks in your picture need more stats then any dps class. Sure you do not need to max all of them at once as you mentioned, but since dps classes can choose to abandon defensive stats completly its obvious that tanks are in disadvanage here as they cant trade offensive stats for defensive once completly. No one expect a Wizard to tank, but Paladins and Fighter are expected to do so, if on tank spec. That alone in natural way substract substantial amount of avilable statistic points from offensive stats pool of tanks. And you cant deny that with every new zone/mobs rating increase it will be growing disparity. And its really not important if you run BIS toon or middle or low IL one. Disparity still exist here.
I wonder how much such demanded distribution is decreasing tanks damage output. If you want tanks to be just 30% behind pure dps I wont be suprised if that distribution alone do the trick. But you decided to grab even 30% more with adding that class mechanic. I am not sayin that it can be even larger gap between tanks and dps classes with damage output- it should be, but only when tanks would be rewarded with some other way. And I am sorry to say that but you offer nothing in return.
I wont be suprised if lets say 16k IL Wizard who puts some points in defensive stats (like capping DR) would be overall more damage proof than 14k IL tank who wont cap defensive stats. If there is no some behind a scene mechanics out there, statistics distribution is only thing witch differs tanks form dpses atm. Shield alone is not good enaugh, especialy when all Tab mechanics are nothing more but a joke. Want to keep that mechanic with -30% dps reduction – fine, keep it, or even increase it, but add to that + 5% for all defensive stats and +20% more HP tanks only role bonus? Let us feel like tanks! As for now we are not tanks – we are just weaker dps classes here.
Sure threat multiplayer should slove grabbing/holding aggro issue – but for now its not working - waiting for a update here.But, having hard taunt in current situation is not that bad idea –as daily maybe? Currently we hardly have an option to hold agrro not to mention a moments of heavy burst from dps. Yes, I do agree that it should be a tank job to be ready and retake aggro if needed – but as for now we have no toll to do that. Sure there is a skill putting you on top of agro, but its on coll down and if you are supposed to run with 3dps party, and of those guys gona be on your IL level (no to mention higher level) and competent players – good luck with that. I am aware that properly working aggro holding system should finally work as a team aggro menagement - dpses should watch not to over dops target and tanks
And cos of issue mentioned above it will be returning problem with every new MOD incereasing enemy ratings. As dps classes would increase their dmg output while tanks would need to fill gaps in their defences first. Anything left for offensive stats would be worth -30% less so.... thats encouraging.....
I am aware that need of creation of 3 distinguished from each other tank classes at same time is a hard task as those clases have to basicaly do the same job using 3 different methods. (I really wonder why you gave a Barbarian tank spec) If any of those will be weaker at same level players will quickly become angry and will abandon such class. And lets not forget that even if you gona create large numbers of skills and distribute those between tanks there need to be a place to use them in-game. As I said its hard job for you to do here but some global idea of tanking is necesery to be implemented fisrt across a board before you gona do the tweaks for any class. For now I cant see that idea, and even if there is one, I can hardly see it implemented at current state of test server.
Hi Gripnir! Thanks for following up, I apologize that it did not seem that I had understood your point clearly. I was attempting to convey to indicate that content isn't necessarily being balanced around tanks needing to cap every defensive stat. I would also like to restate that the 30% damage reduction may very well go away completely based on how things continue to play out, if it really feels like after everything else is inline, that it's not necessary to hit that overall 70% mark.
In regards to the disparity growing between tank vs. dps damage as enemies become stronger: this is one of the numerous reasons we added the "secondary rating" stat to various equipment slots. We will make adjustments if necessary to ensure that there is no growing disparity over time and that equipment continues to rise to the occasion.
Wait, you can cap all stats without an augment pet? Well damn, and here I thought mod 16 was gonna make augment pets come back into style.
How tanks are about to feel tanks if that above is dps Barbarian? So, with that in mind I simply exchange 30% of dps output for a fast diminishing hp shield? Nice... It seems that Dreadnought is gona be only choice for fighters....
Yes in solo probably no in group. Vanguard has all the needed tools for being an agro magnet, yea well if things would actualy work...
On paper the reduced damage from feats/class powers + aggro from encounters/abilities should secure a for a solid tank that should be able to control the battlefield and the mobs so they dont wipe the party.
The problem is the tanking part and the aggro part atm :-).
Dreadnought sure has a dps advantage on Vanguard and but cant aggro if his life depended on it except for pure dps.
Vanguard do have better aggro tools but dps is in a sad state if you want to put in as friendly as possible.
Now the not so good thing in this scenario is that Vanguard do not tank better, or it is so little nobody notice. The dps he gives up for being able to tank and take aggro is about the ratio of 100/1 not a good one.
I pretty sure they can fix the aggro part without ot much trubble what am seriously worried about is the tanking part which I see no effort or hints that it is being fixed.
Best
That exactly my point. There is no place for tanking atm. Tanks were insignifican for last couple of updates and that seems to remain that way. Add to that huge overall statistic overflow on all classes and it looks like Dreadnought shield would be just fine for most content (if not all). If any end game toon would be as resilent as tank (same DR, all def stats nad HP) it wont be important if you hold agro that much, and actually it even should be easier to grab mobs attention with yours significantly higher dps output.
So yeah Vanguard is ok on paper and I am afraid that even with aggro control repair it wont change much. Will do more test after new patch but so far Vanguard is completly broken (that encounter +20%DR for 10 sec is like....WHAT? )
To make this working they should implement 2 mechnics:
DPS spec - all your defensive abilities have 25% efectivness penalty you have 10%HP penalty and your aggro is 25% lower
TANK spec - all your dps abilities have 25% effectivness penalty you have 10% HP bonus and your aggro generation is 25% higher
And/OR remove entire combined rating from items (maybe adding a little more stats to items like 10% of combined rating value)
We are still working out the difficulty and damage of enemy auto attacks in group content, we will be working to make sure tanks are absolutely necessary in group content. That being said, in the meantime, giving feedback that certain content is too easy and doesn't require a tank in the unexpected difficulty thread is always helpful, if you have the time and have played specific content where you felt this was the case.
First of all, you cant disclaim that tanks in your picture need more stats then any dps class. Sure you do not need to max all of them at once as you mentioned, but since dps classes can choose to abandon defensive stats completly its obvious that tanks are in disadvanage here as they cant trade offensive stats for defensive once completly.
I would say that if a DPS class abandons defensive stats completely, then they should find themselves spending a lot of time dead. If that is not the case for any of them, then that is hopefully a bug of some kind.
Yeah, but unless the devs swing back into oneshot mechanics (which I think we can all agree they were right to yeet), those dps will just blame the healers, anyway.
This is absolutely true, and my concerns regarding player psychology vis-a-vis stat allocation is why we ended up implementing a guaranteed boost to all secondary ratings on some equipment slots, to ensure that some amount of defensive stats are being increased as you get better gear.
It's unlikely a DPS will ever opt for defensive stats unless they absolutely cannot clear content without it, even if they are struggling from heavy hits—as long as those hits are hypothetically avoidable. With that in mind, we are aiming for balance to be based around the guaranteed secondary ratings, for offense focused classes at least.
Vanguard is getting better, but I don't notice any changes to Dig In ? (@asterdahl)
I apologize, the small changes I mentioned would be coming to Dig In should have made it into this week's build, I will check tomorrow and report back if the changes possibly made it in without the tooltip being updated, or whether they didn't make it in at all. Thank you for your patience.
Comments
Armor class.
Too bad it was removed from the game for some weird reason...
Now mind that we do not know how things and if they make mobs hit hard enough keeping aggro on them not to wipe party bunching them together for aoe might force groups to take OP Justice or a Vanguard with aggro enough to get it done.
How Vanguard is going to be able to survive with current block is however another question as it vanish in 1 or 2 hits from boss mobs( and several other minor but that I hope is something that will be adjusted).
They removed it, as I guess it simply didn't fit for their new mechanic/counting system.
The only real solution to make a difference between tanks and not tanks, is to make tanks able to cap defences/HP higher then other classes.
But then again ,somehow I doubt they are capable of implement that in this new system.
My point was that they will move to a different class, because the paladin is now garbage compared to live server
> > @gripnir78 said:
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> > > @fanlaar#4089 said:
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> > > With every class having the same defensive and offensive stats available fighter becomes pretty much a useless class in Mod 16. Paladins become the tank and there is zero benefit to playing a DPS that isn't ranged. I'm still playing while holding out hope that they scrap most of the Mod 16 changes.
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> > What does Paladin do better than Fighter atm?
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> > I belive he means that Paladins do not have the dps spec. So tanking is the only options for them unless they wanna heal. So while for a Fighter tank path is a joke, all of us would go Dreadnaught. That would leva all tanking for Paladins unless some Barbarians would like to tank but I never heard one of them wanting that..
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> > So its not about Paladin being better thank, its that no1 else would choose this path.
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> I have no problems at all tanking with my Vanguard. For solo play I do ofc switch to my Dreadnaught loadout.
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> What exactly makes you say tank path is a joke?
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> Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
If the party doesn't need a tank, then why not just swap to Dreadnaught loadout?
And Asterdahl was very clear that you cannot swap roles.
Therefore Dreadnaught is a better tank then Vanguard but CANNOT fill the tank role in most group content. You have to take a Tank Pally or Tank barby.
Y=
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
BUG: In TONG orcus fight, Dig In does not prevent knockback. This is also true of a few control spells. Yuan-Ti charm, I stay in dig in, but it seems to bug it out a bit. I can't cancel it easily, and I can't do anything if feared while dug in.
@asterdahl , I know you said you're working on the animation, so that's hopefully going to help here. Right now, Dig in is a bit too clunky and gets bugged. If we could reduce the animation time and make getting into, and out of Dig in more responsive, it would help significantly with some of the dig in issues IMO.
BUG: In level scaled dungeons, I can’t access some of the abilities, like shield slam or determination. I’m assuming this is due to something wrong with the dungeon scaling:
For Dig In:
The changes to increase DR, remove CA from enemies, and boost stamina regen has helped a bit. But it's still too situational to be used as a "TAB" mechanic. It's getting there though. There needs to be some sort of an aggro mechanic to it to hold. Something that it does. Maybe it pulses aggro out or does a small amount of damage in an AOE? Honestly, just making Dig in near instant to activate and deactivate would make it more useful in more scenarios. Also need a clearer warning sign if it stops due to the Stamina being fully drained. It leaves you in a weird state, so you're just standing there, no shield, and everything murders you pretty quick.
Maybe we could do something like the second Dig In breaks due to stamina dropping you get some DR for a few seconds, and you're immune to movement effects so you can get out of there and reposition? Right now, I find Dig In to be moderately useful, but the second it breaks, there's almost no feedback and I get murdered pretty quick.
For Threat:
Overall, the changes to threat have been pretty good. I still find it incredibly difficult in a multi-mob encounter to tell when someone is pulling threat from me without hovering my reticle over every mob. Not very precise, and with the chaos and mob/character snapping due to lag/graphics stuff, very unpredictable.
If I could see my own threat bar over each of the mobs while I'm in tank mode, that would be, I mean, that would be huge!
For sustain:
Even with a healer healing me, I found it difficult to tank and stay alive in some encounters. This might be due to the damage scaling not being right in dungeons yet, but the stamina regen passive really needs a boost. I'm not getting nearly enough stamina back in between boss swings during boss fights. I find myself having to use Dig In just to regenerate stamina so I don't die. But then I'm not being active in the fight, just sort of standing there like an idiot waiting for the DPS to pull aggro off me again so I can Anvil or ET it right back. I'm assuming that's not the intended playstyle, correct? If so, I think our options are to reduce damage taken somehow with shield down, or provide a better mechanism to get stamina back. The passive just isn’t fast enough. I can’t hold aggro and generate stamina fast enough to keep blocking during a boss fight.
For DPS:
In general, this wasn’t too bad in TONG. Other than the fact that the vorpal enchant is scaling all wrong (I posted in another thread), it’s actually pretty enjoyable. We’re getting closer to a good place with Dreadnought for DPS imo, so your hard work isn’t going unappreciated. Your bug fix to ITF works btw. If I’m >50% vengeance, it no longer drains me down to 50%. There was a few bugs where I couldn’t get party members with it, even when they were only about 10’ away, but it was infrequent, and not enough details there to help you out to troubleshoot.
There’s some meh feats to choose from, and we’re still locked into a specific choice/path, so I don’t think dreadnought will have a lot of variation in playstyle. Griffons Wrath is still bugged, and like others have said, that final animation is brutal. We could really do with shortening that. That’s a lot of time to spend in the air about to be hit. It runs counter to the fast reaction “Riposte with our shield” idea I think you’ve got for Dreadnought. That’s a ton of time I’m getting hit just to do a meh amount of damage for the final hit. I find myself shield canceling it and only ever using the first two swings so I don’t die while using the third.
Other than that, I think the improvements being made are steady and moving in the right direction.
Again, if one thing from my post stands out that would help (for all classes), it would be to see your threat meter against mobs above their health bar. But especially for tanks. This will help us feel like we can monitor, protect, and control fights and feel like we’re “tanking” instead of watching party members dying without having a chance to react and pull something off them in time.
Thanks for your hard work so far! Anxious to see what the next round of patches holds!
I would actually try to theme the feat paths differently to try to address this issue:
Make one path the simpler "deals more damage when attacking", while the other path is themed around a high risk high reward style that is based around getting hit and counter attacking.
The current general theme of "AoE vs. single target" is serviceable and straight forwards, but lacks the flair or differentiation in gameplay style you see on the Ranger's specs (lightning/melee/trapper/archer). I get that Fighter has always been a fairly simple concept as a class, but the changes thus far don't seem to change much about how I play.
If you'd want a concept for how the high risk high reward path would look like, I'm going to
stealborrow Sharp's Rogue tank concept in the spoiler below (it's a long read and I'd rather not clutter this page than it needs to be).Have you tried that, or are you just saying that?
You cannot tank as Dreadnought end game. Not very well. The aggro mechanics are all wrong, you have no way to pull aggro from a squishy. You have those tools as Vanguard.
Additionally, you will die faster. I know everyone's been giving Dig In a lot of flak, and to be fair, it needs some work still (Asterdahl is working on it), it's not useless. And Dig in > Seethe for tanking by a lot.
My party did significantly better with me in Vanguard mode, and letting the 3 DPS do their thing, than with me as a terrible tank in Dreadnought providing a 4th DPS that was only about 30-40% more than my Vanguard.
I get that we're all very frustrated with where things are at right now. That doesn't excuse us from repeating other people's assumptions and fears without the data to back it up. Get a 5 man going and do CR, or TONG or FBI on Preview right now. Try and tank as Dreadnought. I found it to be incredibly frustrating. You can't keep people alive, and your healer runs around trying to heal everyone and yells at you for not holding aggro.
In Vanguard, the problems disappeared pretty quick.
There's still work that needs to be done, but your statement is just wrong. Demonstrably wrong.
Best
I read the "tank rogue" reference, still a bit unclear how that would fit with current Fighter tree.
Asterdahl wants Dread to seek out opponents, get hit, then hit back even harder; Van (seemingly by intent) is to poke them moderately hard, get hit and survive to poke them more.
The latter is not working out well.
My question (and I do have one) :
Which feats and encounters in Vanguard could fill the proposed "rogue tank" role?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
He was correct in that Dread (based solely on my 2 week preview experience) appears to hold aggro better then Vanguard.
Still testing the recent updates.
The aggro dependence on damage is crippling to the Vanguard imo. I get that Asterdahl wants active (instead of passive) threat generation. But threat can be active and NOT DPS based. Let Van be that exception.
At least, Vanguard should have some supplement or base multiplier for the damage portion of the threat equation.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
IF and only then Dig In will actually do something it may change, but not untill then.
BTW just finished Mad Mage and funny thing - few times I coudn't even stand up from dig in - it asked me to find target - lol - after last boss I wasnt even able to stand at all (after combat) untill friend popped pinata for me to be able to target it with encounter to release myself. (at wills do not help here) So yeah sure threat menagement is bit better now on Vanguard but thats it. I prefer to do dps for mobs aggro generation, then ending up stuck on my knees....
I also was hoping the feats would become more meaningful with the different themes. If this new system is supposed to have meaningful feats, then most of the feats aren't really meaningful and don't fundamentally shift how you play.
There is nothing in the Fighter's tree that is like the Ranger's Longshot (need to shift your mindset to staying back and picking off enemies from range rather than rushing into melee) or the Wizard's Directed Flames (instead of letting Smolder tick in the background to proc feats and make your powers more powerful, you reverse the idea and use your powers to proc Smolder as often as possible for the damage). Aside from the unique Rising Revenge, almost all of the Dreadnought feats fall under "deal more damage" (or may as well not exist, see the tier 2 Vengeance feats) and simply force you to select certain powers for different occasions.
It works, but it isn't particularly interesting.
In addition, I was thinking about some posts on this thread that didn't really like having to play discount tank in order to deal damage. I can see where they're coming from, as if you try to play Fighter with some semblance of self preservation in a team (ie, let the tank take point and circle behind the enemies so you don't die), you have some awkward pauses in combat to restore your Vengeance. You tell your enemies to take 5, Dig In, and twiddle your thumbs while waiting to be allowed to play again.
It overtly rewards you for running into attacks I can see why people dislike needing to violate common sense to get the most out of the class. This sort of complaint isn't new either, as if you look around, you might find other people that wanted Conqueror GF to gain damage stacks by attacking rather than getting hit (or running into enemy attacks on purpose, which is also encouraged for Conqueror GFs not using the Wraps or the unstable potion DoT).
I was hoping to address all of these notions with the themed feats.
Not sure what the Vanguard feat paths' themes would be, but I sure hope they aren't the un-cohesive mess of damage mitigation, DPS feats, and self healing feats as seen now.
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> The aggro dependence on damage is crippling to the Vanguard imo. I get that Asterdahl wants active (instead of passive) threat generation. But threat can be active and NOT DPS based. Let Van be that exception.
> At least, Vanguard should have some supplement or base multiplier for the damage portion of the threat equation.
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> Vanguard does have a multiplier for the damage portion of the equation. That's been stated already. Go back through asterdahl's posts in this thread. Essentially, DPS role generates 1 point of threat per 1 point of damage and all Tank roles generate 1.x points of threat per 1 point of damage. Powers labeled as "generates additional threat" generate even more threat per point of damage. They just need to get that x right. It probably needs to be a little higher, and shield and Dig In might need some built-in aggro. But no hard taunts please. Hard taunts are lazy game design and promote lazy playstyles.
Yes, I did read that. It ain't working well.
But is not consistently overcoming party DPS. Allow me to clarify my statement:
"Vanguard needs a MEANINGFUL and distinctly EFFECTIVE multiplier, better then what we have seen so far on preview."
I respectfully disagree that all hard taunts are "lazy".
Tab Mark was a hard taunt. Nothing lazy about it.
Tab Mark required forethought (who to mark first, who next), timing (how often to reapply marks), coordination (avoid reduntant taunts, plan when during rotation to strafe/angle behind shield to add marks) and party awareness (watch for adds in the periphery aggroing teammates and Mark them).
Hard taunts can absolutely require effort and thought. It is a myth that tanking is easy.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
As my 5 1/2 year-old Fighter-Tank may soon be un/underemployed, spent the past 3 days focusing on Dreadnaught.
Some post-update thoughts:
Not a huge fan of the (imo) overuse of linked feat-power-power combos.
As many others have said, these links pigeon-hole your load-outs and force unwanted encounters on us.
But, the Landwaster-Earthshaker-Shockwave combination feels great.
Lots of left-brain strategy involved in forming a vengeance maintenance-to-combo plan.
And a very satisfying payoff in the end.
But shockwave needs a target visual on the first press like the old "impact". I'm sure that's been said already, But misses alot.
The Brazen/Heavy slash combo is also enjoyable. Seethe works, but breaks the rhythm of a fight by pausing.
Overall, I Dreadnaught is quite playable. Much more functional then Vanguard. Pretty much a must-have for solo/quest/dailies, must go Dread not Van.
But for group content? I don't want to play DPS. So...
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
@asterdahl
I am actually a bit shocked that other classes don't make use of this combo system outlined by Landwaster, as I can see a bit of potential with this system.
For example, you could have things on Barbarian like using Adamantine Strike followed up by Spinning Strike (the concept could be a feat based around mob destroying daily chains similar to Landwaster, even though I know Spinning Strike isn't well received... ).
I think some more interesting uses could be if a daily attack granted a free use of an encounter power (balanced around the fact that dailies are a rare resource anyways), or if an at-will granted a free use of an encounter power (you would need to tweak the damage on the follow up encounter so it isn't broken), but I don't know if the programming would allow for that (I am guessing it won't?).
I'd also pitch it to noworries. Assuming he isn't buried under a pile of paperwork, I think the more encounter heavy classes he's working on could have some interesting applications for the feats (I am not a Rogue player, but I think those players could imagine a ton of possibilities of this combo system to make up for a lack of reliable cooldown reductions).
In regards to the disparity growing between tank vs. dps damage as enemies become stronger: this is one of the numerous reasons we added the "secondary rating" stat to various equipment slots. We will make adjustments if necessary to ensure that there is no growing disparity over time and that equipment continues to rise to the occasion.
It's unlikely a DPS will ever opt for defensive stats unless they absolutely cannot clear content without it, even if they are struggling from heavy hits—as long as those hits are hypothetically avoidable. With that in mind, we are aiming for balance to be based around the guaranteed secondary ratings, for offense focused classes at least.
Thanks for the report! I'll look into this as soon as I am able.