So, I'm not gonna be a smartass and just start quoting spells at you, but D&D has a fair number of spells that do add your casting ability to damage or healing.
Clerics are getting the bonus to healing this next build. Looking at online SRDs for the current edition, Spiritual Weapon appears to be the only damage dealing Cleric Spell that adds the ability modifier to damage. I did a quick perusal of Wizard and Warlock spells and didn't see any that add it. I'm sure the SRDs are not comprehensive. So, there may be a few more, but in the current edition of the game those are exceptions and not the norm.
there's the Cure Wounds spells, as you know, plus Healing word. Green Flame blade, shillelagh, I know there's a few others but can't recall them off the top of my head. I'll grant that, if you discount healing spells, it's mostly cantrips and weapon conjurations.
1
silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
So, I have been informed that Physical Damage Bonus applies to Projectiles and that the devs do not intend to split it. That is interesting because in early editions of D&D, STR did indeed adjust ranged damage and DEX only adjusted chance to hit for ranged weapons. So, at least we can't say that its "not D&D". Just not "current D&D".
Looks like we will be playing in a combination of many editions of D&D now. Funny, that sounds like almost every D&D game table I've ever sat at.
I do think that if this is the case then for clarity's sake they should be referring to it as "Ranged Physical Damage" instead of Projectile Damage.
This 0.25% increase is what I had noticed and honestly, I had thought it was a bug, not wai.
Thought so too. Essentially it makes the entire discussion about what initial stat distributions for what classes, no stat rolls, etc. meaningless. Good thing is: My mental capabilities are gradually declining, the older I get, but the new game design ensures, that no matter what stupid choices I make, it will not matter ...
EDIT: I think I will train my cat to create my next NWO character. The real challenge being, that she does not hit all keys on my keyboard simultaneously. If she manages that, she will be a great help in character creation, because what keys she will press will be nearly irrelevant.
So, I have been informed that Physical Damage Bonus applies to Projectiles and that the devs do not intend to split it. That is interesting because in early editions of D&D, STR did indeed adjust ranged damage and DEX only adjusted chance to hit for ranged weapons. So, at least we can't say that its "not D&D". Just not "current D&D".
Looks like we will be playing in a combination of many editions of D&D now. Funny, that sounds like almost every D&D game table I've ever sat at.
I do think that if this is the case then for clarity's sake they should be referring to it as "Ranged Physical Damage" instead of Projectile Damage.
If they go this route, I can only hope they do something like boost the base crit chance for rogues and rangers so they still have a reason to want Dexterity.
0
silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
there's the Cure Wounds spells, as you know, plus Healing word. Green Flame blade, shillelagh, I know there's a few others but can't recall them off the top of my head. I'll grant that, if you discount healing spells, it's mostly cantrips and weapon conjurations.
I honestly don't think the damage from ability scores is significant anymore, so it doesn't matter that much from a mechanics perspective. But, since it is so small it is also true that it shouldn't matter if we have stats we want.
I always think more choice is better and the ability score issue is not to my liking. But, I don't think the battle for assignable scores and class-specific score bonuses is one we can win at this point. So, without really knowing the coding reasons or larger balance reasons that only the devs know, I've tried to suggest a couple of workarounds to achieve that end result to some extent.
Specifically the one above about having all stats grant an Accuracy bonus, but only the highest applying, and one in an earlier post suggesting that as a class feature they apply a different rating that is already calculated. For example, Cleric damage being affected by Bonus Healing instead of Magic Damage.
For me, the bottom line is that it is still fun to play my characters on Preview so I'm sticking around for M16. Even if its not exactly the D&D experience I want, its still a good game.
After half-way playthrough with 3 different DPS paragons, my feeling is that the enemies of Undermountain should be doing 20% more damage. The Bosses should have 20% more health.
After half-way playthrough with 3 different DPS paragons, my feeling is that the enemies of Undermountain should be doing 20% more damage. The Bosses should have 20% more health.
Damage of some classpowers should get adjusted same way. If my daily crits and oneshoots most elitemobs but other powers of the class deal medium to low damage it can be called a disbalance same way. Maybe adjust/balance AP gain on some classes and tone down daily, there is a mismatch in my eyes. This also shows up in PVP pretty obvious. A tanking class dealing 3000 mag damage from a turtle position, laying back and waiting for that unpredictable and unavoidable onehit. Not that I think PVP should have any focus at the current state of the game.
2
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
GIve free reroll before mod 16 or we will have wrong ability scores.........
There are a lot of requests to go back to class specific ability score bonuses. Specifically for damage. I get it. For example, in D&D each spellcasting class has a single stat that is considered their spellcasting stat and it is their most important stat when it comes to spellcasting.
But, here's the thing: In D&D, those spellcasting stats do not directly increase the damage from your spells. They increase your chance to hit with spells that require an attack roll. We don't have any attack rolls. They increase the difficulty of saving throws rolled against spells that allow saving throws. We don't have saving throws either.
No, the closest thing that we have to either of those is the Accuracy vs Deflect opposed roll. So, here's a proposal: ALL stats give a bonus to Accuracy, similar to the static ones given to Critical Strike and Combat Advantage. BUT, only the highest of these Accuracy Bonuses applies. Sure, you could try to stack up a more "useful" stat, but its going to take quite an investment to stay ahead of the one they pre-set as your highest stat.
Furthermore, in D&D, DEX adds to damage for ranged weapons. I propose that they remove the Critical Severity bonus from DEX and replace it with a Projectile Damage Bonus. And don't argue on the one hand be more D&D and on the other hand make DEX a crit stat. In D&D there is no correlation. Criticals are a flat chance (almost always 5%) and add a specific effect to damage depending on the edition of the game (max damage or double damage usually). DEX is irrelevant to that.
I don't see a solution for Weapon Finesse to make DEX a damage stat without going back to different stats doing different things for different classes. Feats here are generally not that broad in scope, rather they are highly situational.
This is an overly complicated proposal. If they're not going to revert to the old system that matched how 4E worked, why would the implement a triply complicated system to make things match how 5E works?
And making Int/Wis/Cha not have an impact on spell damage but Strength/Dex has an impact on weapon damage makes it that much harder to balance casters vs non-casters.
The equipment "changes if equipped:" listings are completely off in Terminus, really large negative numbers, sometimes of stats not even present. According to them I lose thousands of stat points even if I don superior equipment.
0
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
This is an overly complicated proposal. If they're not going to revert to the old system that matched how 4E worked, why would the implement a triply complicated system to make things match how 5E works?
Well, I don't think a lot of people would agree that the old system actually matched how 4E worked. But anyway, how exactly is this idea complicated?
The direction of the devs is not to have the ability scores do different things for different classes. I actually do see a lot of merit to this, especially when it comes time to roll out new classes. But at the same time, I would like the "primary ability score" of each class be something that they do get a benefit out of. After all, in most cases these are the scores players have invested in and also the scores being unavoidably set as the highest scores in their assigned ability score array.
So, I suggested adding a third item to the list of what each ability score does. Make it the same for every ability score and then just only use the highest number. Its a simple method to pull a modifier from the highest ability score regardless of what it is.
And making Int/Wis/Cha not have an impact on spell damage but Strength/Dex has an impact on weapon damage makes it that much harder to balance casters vs non-casters.
Bad proposal is bad.
Well, INT does impact spell damage. and I didn't suggest changing that. As far as DEX having an impact on damage, I posted again that I later learned that Physical Damage Bonus applies to Projectiles and that the devs do not intend to split it. It has apparently already been asked and answered. So my suggestion there will go nowhere.
This is an overly complicated proposal. If they're not going to revert to the old system that matched how 4E worked, why would the implement a triply complicated system to make things match how 5E works?
Well, I don't think a lot of people would agree that the old system actually matched how 4E worked. But anyway, how exactly is this idea complicated?
The direction of the devs is not to have the ability scores do different things for different classes. I actually do see a lot of merit to this, especially when it comes time to roll out new classes. But at the same time, I would like the "primary ability score" of each class be something that they do get a benefit out of. After all, in most cases these are the scores players have invested in and also the scores being unavoidably set as the highest scores in their assigned ability score array.
So, I suggested adding a third item to the list of what each ability score does. Make it the same for every ability score and then just only use the highest number. Its a simple method to pull a modifier from the highest ability score regardless of what it is.
And making Int/Wis/Cha not have an impact on spell damage but Strength/Dex has an impact on weapon damage makes it that much harder to balance casters vs non-casters.
Bad proposal is bad.
Well, INT does impact spell damage. and I didn't suggest changing that. As far as DEX having an impact on damage, I posted again that I later learned that Physical Damage Bonus applies to Projectiles and that the devs do not intend to split it. It has apparently already been asked and answered. So my suggestion there will go nowhere.
Your argument was predicated on the idea that since caster stat doesn't add to spell damage in 5E, there was no need for it to add to spell damage in NWO. Kind of seems like removing magic damage from Int is just sort of a natural extension of that.
And yeah, the old system didn't exactly perfectly model 4E, because NWO was never a good model of 4E, but it at least was designed to make it so the keystat and secondary stats were super relevant to the classes in general, and back in 4E, your IntMod did indeed increase your wizard spell damage.
My view is that the new system is just bad. It serves no purpose, no one has actually defended it at all, and it actively works against the IP that's being licensed. But since there's basically no flexibility on the issue, I think it'd probably be better off if ability scores were eliminated entirely; after all, the actual extent of the modifiers has gotten so small they may as well be.
What's next? Are we adding +1 to +5 of each stat into boons?
Personally, I feel NWO should maintain a feel of its original game, and honor its originating play system, wherever possible, so long as it does not inhibit the quality of the game play experience. Not sure where I stand on this one, but I do like variation between characters. Another thing worth noting, is that with each new mod, the best equipment is limited in variety, and usually leaves some stats sorely lacking. We used boons, ability stats, and enchantments to help balance and round out our characters.
My view is that the new system is just bad. It serves no purpose, no one has actually defended it at all, and it actively works against the IP that's being licensed. But since there's basically no flexibility on the issue, I think it'd probably be better off if ability scores were eliminated entirely; after all, the actual extent of the modifiers has gotten so small they may as well be.
I'd rather they kept the stats and let us choose to have them read whatever we want. Just ignore them from a game mechanics point of view and just add the combat modifiers as a flat base bonus to whatever class, and with racial bonuses and at various level ups simply choose to add the bonuses that the Prime Stats currently offer. So instead of choosing to add +1 STR and +1 CON, just choose to add the bonuses they would normally offer. That way the Prime Stats still exist, Cryptic get to channel us down their vanilla funnel of compliant behaviour, and I can have a Rogue who has a 16 INT and a Paladin with 22 Charisma... Stats would have the same impact on game play as our characters' chosen hair styles, but it would still look like D&D.
Real players of D&D would still come to the game and point and laugh, bu less so than at the current situation of pre-made templates with farcical stat distribution designed to make a coders job easier rather than enhance the gaming experience.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
@noworries#8859 can you explain why the resistance against allowing people to customize their ability scores? Because at the moment, choosing not to play dragonborn is a bigger penalty than getting all your attribute choices wrong and I guarantee you, people will choose not to play dragonborn because it is ugly (myself included). I see no real harm in allowing it, especially because of how low of a bonus they provide.
I still think they could be done differently to live, but not in the way they are currently done. Give players a fixed amount to allocate and set the base value of all stats to 10, with the maximum they can get from allocation 18 (20 with the racial bonus).
Why not give the standard array for 5E and let players decide?
I prefer point buy system, with 25 points to allocate and the option to drop stats down to 3 and redistribute elsewhere. This is all moot however since at 0.25% per point it makes hardly any difference.
A topseller in Zenstore might be a "skin-transmute" then into any given class even staying Dragonborn same time, maybe with a time-limit for a week. Actually picking Human race looks like a selfpunishement to me, same as I do not understand, where "+1 Ability score" dispalys being a halfelf (+1 selfgenerated) . Is it an invisble bonus?
Why not give the standard array for 5E and let players decide?
I prefer point buy system, with 25 points to allocate and the option to drop stats down to 3 and redistribute elsewhere. This is all moot however since at 0.25% per point it makes hardly any difference.
Oh I prefer Point Buy as well, but at least the Standard Array (default 5E build option) is close to what they have now, but with more personal choice.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I have a question about the current leveling system as it works together with equipment. What i mean specifically is the combined rating stat.
what i would like to know is if it was ever an option to make it so that every time a character levels they get an increase to their base stats (such as the crit chance of 2500 points, instead of putting all of the burden on the equipment we are currently wearing.
the reason i am asking is that i feel it is making the game more difficult to balance since there is no real baseline for how much power a character should have at any particular level. It's easier to talk abut our characters as roles rather than class types, since a class can have different roles. So a dps role would gain 500 crit every level and 300 defence, while a tank would gain 300 crit every level and 500 defence.
with thaco, fighters gained +1 every level, wizards gained +1 every 6 etc. You could easily model our level gains to be automatic to follow a similar pattern, and then we use feat choices to personalize our characters.
this removes the need for the combined rating stat which feels like a trap, because you dont associate with the proper character growth your character needs to follow, and when you neglect to update your equipment you actually lose levels as you progress in the game. It's counterintuitive and makes it harder to compare your character's strength to the are they are in.
It's important to me to sort out how the devs are moving forward with the game so i can better offer feedback on the character class updates. After all, there is no point offering a suggestion they already decided against.
Why not give the standard array for 5E and let players decide?
I prefer point buy system, with 25 points to allocate and the option to drop stats down to 3 and redistribute elsewhere. This is all moot however since at 0.25% per point it makes hardly any difference.
This is what makes it both frustrating and so difficult to understand.
The optional bonuses/distribution of points available from gear, mounts and companions make the initial stat distribution such a tiny issue, I just do not understand the reluctance to allow variance at creation.
If it is because "wrong choices"... then have a "recommended for beginners" or "suggested optimum" distribution of stats. But let people who understand that their decisions may slightly impair their maximum efficiency potential, make that choice.
They don't need to protect us from ourselves. It all just feels a bit "Nanny state". (And that's the kindest way of phrasing it I can think of.)
Bug: When I place all of my ability points into INT as a wizard, the "magical damage bonus" shown in the tool tip stays at zero.
last time i checked that damageboost from Int it did not work at all (At Willwith 10 Int: 700, at 11 Int: 701, at 18 Int: 708...), that´s why I put every point into Char+Con for recharge and AP gain on preview... not that I know if those do work at all, maybe only a psychological factor being charismatic and healthy but stupid as nut
PS: checked it again, +8 Int-> 230 from At will buffed up to 234 (testweapon) = 1,7% lol
Bug: When I place all of my ability points into INT as a wizard, the "magical damage bonus" shown in the tool tip stays at zero.
Hopefully this is something they will address before the mod goes live, because the average player who doesn't read the forums will have no idea what is going on. It looks silly to have a stat give +0 regardless of how many points you invest.
+0.25 doesn't look like much, either (and it isn't much), but at least it could add up to a whole number eventually on the player's character sheet.
Here is an Idea: Lock everyone's primary attribute to a fixed identical number at character creation. Make it so you can't put additional points into it... it increases with level only. Players receive extra points to distribute into other attributes however they choose.
It would work similar to this:
Primary attribute = 17 Other attributes = 10
Your are given 10 points to put into your other attributes, but they are initially capped at 16 points.
After creation, primary attribute automtically increases at all of the intervals. You distribute 2 additional points anywhere else at each threshold.
Using a system that gives no control over your primary attribute, no one needs to argue over who's is better. The paragon balancing will come from the skills and feats, not the attribute.
Comments
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Green Flame blade, shillelagh, I know there's a few others but can't recall them off the top of my head. I'll grant that, if you discount healing spells, it's mostly cantrips and weapon conjurations.
Looks like we will be playing in a combination of many editions of D&D now. Funny, that sounds like almost every D&D game table I've ever sat at.
I do think that if this is the case then for clarity's sake they should be referring to it as "Ranged Physical Damage" instead of Projectile Damage.
Champions Online Advanced Forum Search
EDIT: I think I will train my cat to create my next NWO character. The real challenge being, that she does not hit all keys on my keyboard simultaneously. If she manages that, she will be a great help in character creation, because what keys she will press will be nearly irrelevant.
I always think more choice is better and the ability score issue is not to my liking. But, I don't think the battle for assignable scores and class-specific score bonuses is one we can win at this point. So, without really knowing the coding reasons or larger balance reasons that only the devs know, I've tried to suggest a couple of workarounds to achieve that end result to some extent.
Specifically the one above about having all stats grant an Accuracy bonus, but only the highest applying, and one in an earlier post suggesting that as a class feature they apply a different rating that is already calculated. For example, Cleric damage being affected by Bonus Healing instead of Magic Damage.
For me, the bottom line is that it is still fun to play my characters on Preview so I'm sticking around for M16. Even if its not exactly the D&D experience I want, its still a good game.
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This also shows up in PVP pretty obvious. A tanking class dealing 3000 mag damage from a turtle position, laying back and waiting for that unpredictable and unavoidable onehit. Not that I think PVP should have any focus at the current state of the game.
And making Int/Wis/Cha not have an impact on spell damage but Strength/Dex has an impact on weapon damage makes it that much harder to balance casters vs non-casters.
Bad proposal is bad.
That may also explain the lag in getting the full stats back.
I hope its a bug, but I am being scaled in the Yawning Portal compared to what my stats are in PE.
There is also a significant delay when changing instance for the stats to adjust to their correct levels.
PE Stats
Yawning Portal
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
bugged stats insane combat advantage etc.
normal stats
The direction of the devs is not to have the ability scores do different things for different classes. I actually do see a lot of merit to this, especially when it comes time to roll out new classes. But at the same time, I would like the "primary ability score" of each class be something that they do get a benefit out of. After all, in most cases these are the scores players have invested in and also the scores being unavoidably set as the highest scores in their assigned ability score array.
So, I suggested adding a third item to the list of what each ability score does. Make it the same for every ability score and then just only use the highest number. Its a simple method to pull a modifier from the highest ability score regardless of what it is. Well, INT does impact spell damage. and I didn't suggest changing that. As far as DEX having an impact on damage, I posted again that I later learned that Physical Damage Bonus applies to Projectiles and that the devs do not intend to split it. It has apparently already been asked and answered. So my suggestion there will go nowhere.
Champions Online Advanced Forum Search
And yeah, the old system didn't exactly perfectly model 4E, because NWO was never a good model of 4E, but it at least was designed to make it so the keystat and secondary stats were super relevant to the classes in general, and back in 4E, your IntMod did indeed increase your wizard spell damage.
My view is that the new system is just bad. It serves no purpose, no one has actually defended it at all, and it actively works against the IP that's being licensed. But since there's basically no flexibility on the issue, I think it'd probably be better off if ability scores were eliminated entirely; after all, the actual extent of the modifiers has gotten so small they may as well be.
Personally, I feel NWO should maintain a feel of its original game, and honor its originating play system, wherever possible, so long as it does not inhibit the quality of the game play experience. Not sure where I stand on this one, but I do like variation between characters. Another thing worth noting, is that with each new mod, the best equipment is limited in variety, and usually leaves some stats sorely lacking. We used boons, ability stats, and enchantments to help balance and round out our characters.
Just ignore them from a game mechanics point of view and just add the combat modifiers as a flat base bonus to whatever class, and with racial bonuses and at various level ups simply choose to add the bonuses that the Prime Stats currently offer.
So instead of choosing to add +1 STR and +1 CON, just choose to add the bonuses they would normally offer.
That way the Prime Stats still exist, Cryptic get to channel us down their vanilla funnel of compliant behaviour, and I can have a Rogue who has a 16 INT and a Paladin with 22 Charisma...
Stats would have the same impact on game play as our characters' chosen hair styles, but it would still look like D&D.
Real players of D&D would still come to the game and point and laugh, bu less so than at the current situation of pre-made templates with farcical stat distribution designed to make a coders job easier rather than enhance the gaming experience.
I still think they could be done differently to live, but not in the way they are currently done. Give players a fixed amount to allocate and set the base value of all stats to 10, with the maximum they can get from allocation 18 (20 with the racial bonus).
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Actually picking Human race looks like a selfpunishement to me, same as I do not understand, where "+1 Ability score" dispalys being a halfelf (+1 selfgenerated) . Is it an invisble bonus?
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
what i would like to know is if it was ever an option to make it so that every time a character levels they get an increase to their base stats (such as the crit chance of 2500 points, instead of putting all of the burden on the equipment we are currently wearing.
the reason i am asking is that i feel it is making the game more difficult to balance since there is no real baseline for how much power a character should have at any particular level. It's easier to talk abut our characters as roles rather than class types, since a class can have different roles. So a dps role would gain 500 crit every level and 300 defence, while a tank would gain 300 crit every level and 500 defence.
with thaco, fighters gained +1 every level, wizards gained +1 every 6 etc. You could easily model our level gains to be automatic to follow a similar pattern, and then we use feat choices to personalize our characters.
this removes the need for the combined rating stat which feels like a trap, because you dont associate with the proper character growth your character needs to follow, and when you neglect to update your equipment you actually lose levels as you progress in the game. It's counterintuitive and makes it harder to compare your character's strength to the are they are in.
It's important to me to sort out how the devs are moving forward with the game so i can better offer feedback on the character class updates. After all, there is no point offering a suggestion they already decided against.
Thanks a bunch
The optional bonuses/distribution of points available from gear, mounts and companions make the initial stat distribution such a tiny issue, I just do not understand the reluctance to allow variance at creation.
If it is because "wrong choices"... then have a "recommended for beginners" or "suggested optimum" distribution of stats.
But let people who understand that their decisions may slightly impair their maximum efficiency potential, make that choice.
They don't need to protect us from ourselves.
It all just feels a bit "Nanny state". (And that's the kindest way of phrasing it I can think of.)
PS: checked it again, +8 Int-> 230 from At will buffed up to 234 (testweapon) = 1,7% lol
+0.25 doesn't look like much, either (and it isn't much), but at least it could add up to a whole number eventually on the player's character sheet.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
It would work similar to this:
Primary attribute = 17
Other attributes = 10
Your are given 10 points to put into your other attributes, but they are initially capped at 16 points.
After creation, primary attribute automtically increases at all of the intervals. You distribute 2 additional points anywhere else at each threshold.
Using a system that gives no control over your primary attribute, no one needs to argue over who's is better. The paragon balancing will come from the skills and feats, not the attribute.