I am of the opinion that dps/support should not be as good dps as a dps/dps.
The problem with that idea is that it would make the DPS part of the "hybrid" class utterly pointless in the first place. Why would anyone want to bring one along, instead of a "real" DPS?
I'm OK with it being more, well, "narrow", but it has to be comparable to the "pure" DPS classes for it to have a reason to exist in the first place.
And if it is as good as a pure dps a pure dps has no reason to exist in the first place. Having a tank that can change to a less good dps if needed is more likely to happen then having a pure dps in a group in a world where a tank/dps hybrid can do as much dps then a pure dps. In a world where a pure dps does as much damage as a tank/dps, the pure dps is simply half a class.
The reality is flexibility and performance are not the same thing, and while one can construct an argument that someone may very well be happy to play a rogue because they enjoy the playstyle and it fits the image of the character they want to create, sacrificing the flexibility of a dual role class, it's nearly impossible to construct an argument that anyone would be happy to play a class that has a DPS path that is by-design, below the effectiveness of another DPS class.
Yes, technically you are at an advantage by playing a class that can both tank and DPS, if all the DPS paths are equally well balanced. However, that is only a flexibility advantage that doesn't come into play in a single run. That flexibility is of course, important to some people, and it seems like, with how strong you are arguing in favor of dual DPS-path classes being stronger, it may be important to you. So I can certainly understand the frustration with your class of choice not gaining the flexibility that some other classes have gained.
That being said, I think there are still a lot of people who will be happy to play Wizard, Rogue, and Ranger because they prefer the playstyle, or because they wouldn't be interested in performing a tank or healing role even if it were available to them.
I think we're done, here. This isn't a matter of communication; the things we want out of the game are incompatible.
I want a game where you must think about choices and there is a consequence for failure. Thinking is a skill too, not just how fast you can react to X animation. In fact I would argue not only is it a far more important skill, it is a far rarer skill. I don't get why games these days believe the only criteria they should judge people on is how fast they can react to something. Failure to make a correct choice of feats, powers and gear is failure on the "thinking" side of things.
And as far as respecs costing money, they get handed out like candy at multiple events year round. My main character has over 3000 and my alts have over 200 each, respeccing costs nothing.
I mean, that's elitist thinking. Which is fine, just own it. I don't mind trap options in my games, but I think people complaining about their removal are missing the point.
I will also say that the movement away from trap options is very much a D&D thing, as that was one of 5E's big ideological points, but I don't know if someone at WotC was like "Hey, you license our product you should do X" or someone had a bugaboo at Cryptic and was like "you know what's really working for 5th Edition D&D which is most certainly not an MMO? Removing trap options."
You can make the case that what goes into making a good tabletop RPG is different from what makes a good MMO, and while trap options are bad in a TTRPG, they're good in an MMO. I'm not even saying you're wrong!
But, like I said: if you're going to literally go with elitist thinking, best to just own it and say "yeah, I'm an elitist gatekeeper that wants some people to make dumb decisions because they either don't care or just aren't smart enough."
I will clarify that, when it comes to low level game design decisions like whether or not to remove feats that are essentially traps, that is a decision our design team makes entirely on our own. The fact that 5th edition also headed that direction when compared with 4th ed. is purely coincidence. Even if 5th edition had double down on build complexity, reducing the power delta in Neverwinter so that we can build better content has been on our minds for a long, long time.
> @thefabricant said: > I am of the opinion that dps/support should not be as good dps as a dps/dps. The reason being: it gives them 2 complete "classes", instead of only 1. In order for dps/dps specs to have both paths do something distinct and different, it usually means differentiating between AoE and single target, or the likes. In other words, 1 of the paths fundamentally has a weakness that the other role can fill, thus to play the class properly you are reliant on changing loadouts. In contrast, the dps/support, being good at both in a single loadout means their dps spec is objectively "better" then a dps/dps, which can only dps. > > I think a dps/support should only have an AoE dps or only have a single target dps loadout, it should not be able to do both. This way it is as good as a dps in 1 type of combat, but then falls flat otherwise. This makes its roles equal to that of a dps/dps. That, or it should be able to do both at 80-90% of the effectiveness of a dps/dps, but, by design, they should be imo a worse dps then a pure dps, there is always a tradeoff for having 2 roles. > > What is the point of being a specialist dps if a support with a dps spec can do the same thing as you and do something else.
I have to disagree here, if a class has a dps path, is supposed to que as dps, then it also should deal competetive dps to other dps classes. For example: An Arbiter DC should be as good a dps as a cw or tr or hr, BUT an arbiter DC that is supposed to be dps shouldnt be able to heal at all. If we say classes with 2 roles should inherently be worse then "specialists" why then would i ever play a none specialist. If a warlock will always be a bad dps and a bad healer then why would i want to play that.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
@asterdahl Changes or not, good or bad, I want to say (and repeat what was posted elsewhere) that the unprecedented amount of replies and level of communication by you didn't go unnoticed both here on open preview and closed.
I legit am getting the impression that many of these changes that lock players into specific party roles are tailored to weed out solo players. I want to continue to love the game and stick wiith it but so far i am anything but reassured by what i have been shown.
This is me exactly, particularly the lack of any reassurance by what we've seen/heard thus far.
Hello Mistwalk3r, I apologize if you've felt like the changes on preview have been designed specifically to hamper solo play, I can assure you that we have absolutely no goal of making the game less fun or significantly more challenging for solo players, or requiring anyone to group to enjoy the sort of solo content the game has to offer.
Obviously own preview right now there are many bugs, and we are still working out the final tuning for enemies and player power, as we've changed everything dramatically. But I assure you as we close in on the final release, we will be making absolutely sure that we haven't suddenly made it impossible for any class to solo in any of the content you're used to soloing.
The one possible exception to this is if you were frequently soloing group content, which is now being scaled. Long term we'd like to look into some solutions for this, but we don't have anything planned for Module 16.
Last boss on SoT should get role in Tokio Drift movie. When he initiate his fire hand or whatever its called ( that cone AoE of his) he just slides across the arena. Not even mention that every other attack he aims at someone else. Whats the point of tank presence if despite being focus for him others are targeted.
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Other then that SoT suppose to be 8k IL dungeon, I'd like to see party with 8k that fights with that boss. I'm 14k and have to run around to stay alive, I;m a tank i should stand there and laugh at him atleast for some time and not die in 2 hits (that last hit was 110k, with stats reduction i have 140k on SoT). And its the lowest epic dungeon.
Can you post this in the unexpected difficulty thread? Seems like there are some issues going on here, and it's much easier to keep track of issues like this if we don't have to fish them out of a soon-to-be 30 page thread. (I did take note of this, but it's great if you can post it there as well, as we will have other developers looking over those threads and making sure those issues are tracked as well.)
also new head, hand and feet gear can't be use for changing appearance
The classes that can equip the gear have to be an exact match, even if you can equip the gear. While it doesn't seem to be a bug, it isn't what I consider a desirable arrangement.
Thanks for clarifying this issue, we're going to look to see if we can make some improvements here.
This is a random idea i just had while working, but hear me out @asterdahl - if youre finding it hard to balance out solo with group content - give role bonuses in group content that would make the class play right.
Eg, in solo, OP and HR have rougly the same capabilities, while in say FBI, the HR gets lets say a 50% damage bonus, and the OP gets more HP or Defense or something, that wouls make the HR unable to solo due to not being tanky enough, and OP wouldnt be able to deal competitive damage, and solo content woulnt be so insanely hard for one specific class. And it would make classes actually need each other ro complete the group content.
Toodles.
Hi thanks for sharing your thoughts! Something like this is possible, but generally a last resort, as it can be jarring to suddenly have huge effectiveness boosts in certain types of content. It can also lead solo players (who may actually benefit the most in terms of overall gameplay balance) to feel as if they are being short-changed, because they don't get those group benefits.
I think that as we narrow in zone balance, and fix the numerous outstanding scaling issues, solo play should be absolutely fine for every class.
Hey @asterdahl I ain't sure if you saw my previous post, but is it possible to balance the game around something like the bonus you get on Orcus in ToNG?
Basically, tanks get +50% HP or something, DPS gets +50% DPS, healers get +50% AP gain or CDR or something in dungeons, and those bonuses disappear once you leave the dungeons, and outside of them, the difference between the classes in DPS and survivability is minimal enough so classes do feel like they're in their role, but still find it possible to finish the quests.
Hey @asterdahl I ain't sure if you saw my previous post, but is it possible to balance the game around something like the bonus you get on Orcus in ToNG?
Basically, tanks get +50% HP or something, DPS gets +50% DPS, healers get +50% AP gain or CDR or something in dungeons, and those bonuses disappear once you leave the dungeons, and outside of them, the difference between the classes in DPS and survivability is minimal enough so classes do feel like they're in their role, but still find it possible to finish the quests.
I beat you to the punch and replied 2 minutes before you reposted your question! Sorry it took so long, I just managed to get caught up on replying to feedback on this thread.
Hey @asterdahl I ain't sure if you saw my previous post, but is it possible to balance the game around something like the bonus you get on Orcus in ToNG?
Basically, tanks get +50% HP or something, DPS gets +50% DPS, healers get +50% AP gain or CDR or something in dungeons, and those bonuses disappear once you leave the dungeons, and outside of them, the difference between the classes in DPS and survivability is minimal enough so classes do feel like they're in their role, but still find it possible to finish the quests.
I beat you to the punch and replied 2 minutes before you reposted your question! Sorry it took so long, I just managed to get caught up on replying to feedback on this thread.
Ah, no worries Anyhow, I guess it could work like Everfrost resist or something - in case something creates some sort of a balancing wall (which can happen, and it's hell to handle it in single player games, thank god I don't make multiplayer games xD), I believe role bonuses could work. If the enemies are slightly upscaled so they could actually feel threatening, it's an easy way to do it.
To clarify, for example a wizard can switch from Arcanist to Thaumaturge or Thaumaturge to Arcanist during a dungeon, but a Cleric cannot swap between Devout and Arbiter in a dungeon? Also, does this apply to random queues only or also premades?
We'd like to keep this restriction to random queues but it may not be possible for Module 16 launch. Ultimately, we're not looking to prevent weird remade groups from running through content. We do believe we'll be able to get to the point where 3 dps, 1 tank, 1 healer is the genuinely optimal group setup, so the goal isn't to force that on premade groups.
The only goal of the restriction is to prevent abuse such as riding the tank queue and then switching to a DPS immediately on entry, etc.
This is an objective viewpoint as I play premade, pug, and pug with friends so all combinations. I find this disappointing! Oh, and I main a Fighter so the first of my points won't really effect me either.
I understand that the arguments that follow are on the assumption that the benefits of switching paragon paths mid run provides a tangible benefit. Although with player attitudes and elitist natures sometimes it only needs to be a perceivable benefit rather than an actual realizable one!
So premade groups will (ultimately (mod 16 or beyond)) be able to switch their internal roles when running an instance between tank/healer/dps? but not for pugs? Premades will be able to change to 2xtank or 2xheal or 4xdps at any time within an instance and to gain an advantage but an equivalent pug can not?
Firstly, this will push the dps/dps classes into being more undesired for end game premade content; Wizard, Rogue and Ranger will not have the group flexibility in role changing (and certainly when they don't bring any better dps than a mixed role class). I can not see how this is a good thing; and it's potentially goodbye to these classes for many end game groups!! The utility of barbarian, fighter, cleric, warlock as mixed paragon classes will make them far more desirable.
Secondly, I can not see how this is fair for people who play pugs rather than premades. Premades will have an advantage (over and above the obvious (fair) benefits from being premade) by being able to perform this role switching. Why do they need, require, or should have advantage of this over and above the players who pug content? Not sure why pug players are deemed less deserving or premade players more deserving?
Thirdly, this brings future balancing issues. What do you balance end game content toward going forward. Premades with this ability, or pugs without it? You surely have to balance to the lowest denominator as surely an equivalent pug should be able to complete anything an equivalent premade does; given equal player skills of course. There is potential premades will be complaining content is too easy.
Again I do realise this all assumes the switching benefit will be just that, a beneift. But then that begs the question that if it isn't why not just not allow it.
Personally my take is premade and pug should not differ as it is discriminatory if this is done. Once you enter an instance in a role you should be locked in that role for that instance. If you start as tank you stay as tank, start as dps you stay as dps, etc. Dps can switch between dps paragon paths as that does not break the model. A premade should be able to enter with any setup it desires but these are locked from point of entry... once you make you're bed you get to sleep in it.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
The only goal of the restriction is to prevent abuse such as riding the tank queue and then switching to a DPS immediately on entry, etc.
OK, I am going to be difficult here and ask why that should be considered abuse? You have said yourself that the goal is to make "3DPS+Tank+Healer" optimal, so if people want to switch to a different setup, or switch roles inside dungeons, doesn't it mean that the real problem is that you failed in reaching that goal?
I don't see the inability to switch roles as a dealbreaker, but it will probably lead to more groups (primarily random ones) failing, as people are not able to adapt to special situations. Quite frankly I think the benefits are smaller than the drawbacks.
To clarify, for example a wizard can switch from Arcanist to Thaumaturge or Thaumaturge to Arcanist during a dungeon, but a Cleric cannot swap between Devout and Arbiter in a dungeon? Also, does this apply to random queues only or also premades?
We'd like to keep this restriction to random queues but it may not be possible for Module 16 launch. Ultimately, we're not looking to prevent weird remade groups from running through content. We do believe we'll be able to get to the point where 3 dps, 1 tank, 1 healer is the genuinely optimal group setup, so the goal isn't to force that on premade groups.
The only goal of the restriction is to prevent abuse such as riding the tank queue and then switching to a DPS immediately on entry, etc.
This is an objective viewpoint as I play premade, pug, and pug with friends so all combinations. I find this disappointing! Oh, and I main a Fighter so the first of my points won't really effect me either.
I understand that the arguments that follow are on the assumption that the benefits of switching paragon paths mid run provides a tangible benefit. Although with player attitudes and elitist natures sometimes it only needs to be a perceivable benefit rather than an actual realizable one!
So premade groups will (ultimately (mod 16 or beyond)) be able to switch their internal roles when running an instance between tank/healer/dps? but not for pugs? Premades will be able to change to 2xtank or 2xheal or 4xdps at any time within an instance and to gain an advantage but an equivalent pug can not?
Firstly, this will push the dps/dps classes into being more undesired for end game premade content; Wizard, Rogue and Ranger will not have the group flexibility in role changing (and certainly when they don't bring any better dps than a mixed role class). I can not see how this is a good thing; and it's potentially goodbye to these classes for many end game groups!! The utility of barbarian, fighter, cleric, warlock as mixed paragon classes will make them far more desirable.
Secondly, I can not see how this is fair for people who play pugs rather than premades. Premades will have an advantage (over and above the obvious (fair) benefits from being premade) by being able to perform this role switching. Why do they need, require, or should have advantage of this over and above the players who pug content? Not sure why pug players are deemed less deserving or premade players more deserving?
Thirdly, this brings future balancing issues. What do you balance end game content toward going forward. Premades with this ability, or pugs without it? You surely have to balance to the lowest denominator as surely an equivalent pug should be able to complete anything an equivalent premade does; given equal player skills of course. There is potential premades will be complaining content is too easy.
Again I do realise this all assumes the switching benefit will be just that, a beneift. But then that begs the question that if it isn't why not just not allow it.
Personally my take is premade and pug should not differ as it is discriminatory if this is done. Once you enter an instance in a role you should be locked in that role for that instance. If you start as tank you stay as tank, start as dps you stay as dps, etc. Dps can switch between dps paragon paths as that does not break the model. A premade should be able to enter with any setup it desires but these are locked from point of entry... once you make you're bed you get to sleep in it.
Hi Mythracka, thanks for sharing your thoughts! Also, I genuinely appreciate your friendly tone in making your points, it's greatly appreciated! Since I did say that we are unlikely to be able to support this difference in premades for launch (or as my laptop so helpfully autocorrected it to "remades"... ahem.) so nothing is set in stone yet. Whichever way we rule is going to be controversial to one set of players or another.
Hopefully we can get balance to the point that, 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps is the right choice whenever possible, and that nothing is so significantly off the rails difficult when compared to the piece of content as a whole that switching a 2nd healer or tank in is actually necessary in a run. If we get to that point, there is really no benefit to a premade being able to switch in a 2nd healer or tank, as that's just letting them perhaps run through the content slower, to carry an under geared teammate through. (No one intentionally switches to a slower group layout.)
But I absolutely understand the concern and we will be carefully weighing the options.
The only goal of the restriction is to prevent abuse such as riding the tank queue and then switching to a DPS immediately on entry, etc.
OK, I am going to be difficult here and ask why that should be considered abuse? You have said yourself that the goal is to make "3DPS+Tank+Healer" optimal, so if people are want to switch to a different setup, or switch roles inside dungeons, doesn't it mean that the real problem is that you failed in reaching that goal?
I don't see the inability to switch roles as a dealbreaker, but it will probably lead to more groups (primarily random ones) failing, as people are not able to adapt to special situations. Quite frankly I think the benefits are smaller than the drawbacks.
it's because dps will be able to get into groups faster as a tank than dps. then the run fails because dude I'm not a tank. I"m dps. i just used that role for the lolz. I've seen it happen in other mods just as it is allowed atm.. I think it's a good thing to have that enforcement. I think the way to fix it is not to have dual roles. lol the dc is the only one that has a strong argument for dual roles imo. warlock and barbie should just be dps
The only goal of the restriction is to prevent abuse such as riding the tank queue and then switching to a DPS immediately on entry, etc.
OK, I am going to be difficult here and ask why that should be considered abuse? You have said yourself that the goal is to make "3DPS+Tank+Healer" optimal, so if people are want to switch to a different setup, or switch roles inside dungeons, doesn't it mean that the real problem is that you failed in reaching that goal?
I don't see the inability to switch roles as a dealbreaker, but it will probably lead to more groups (primarily random ones) failing, as people are not able to adapt to special situations. Quite frankly I think the benefits are smaller than the drawbacks.
I don't mean to be difficult back, but I'm having trouble following your logic. If for instance, someone who wants to play a Dreadnought queues as a Vanguard, intending to switch when they are inside, leaving the group without a tank and unable to progress until someone is kicked—how is that an indication that the 3DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer meta has failed?
Even if the meta is implemented perfectly, there will still be deficits in tanks and healers during most playtimes. Hopefully we can introduce more incentives to reduce those deficits, but those sorts of situations do lead to people trying to game the system with multi-role classes. (I've experienced these situations myself as a player in other games many a time, and seen various games handle the issue with varying degrees of grace.)
Now, you may be asking: why would anyone do that, won't people just kick them as soon as the timer is up? Well, that may be true in a 5 player dungeon where everyone queued independently, but things start to get more complicated when you look at 10 player content, or 5 player groups where a partial premade queued in and got matched with 1 or 2 random pugs. When the system allows it partial premades can use all sorts of exploitive behavior to manipulate their queue position and steal tanks and healers off the top of the queue as "replacements."
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I don't mean to be difficult back, but I'm having trouble following your logic. If for instance, someone who wants to play a Dreadnought queues as a Vanguard, intending to switch when they are inside, leaving the group without a tank and unable to progress until someone is kicked—how is that an indication that the 3DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer meta has failed?
If people generally want some other combination than 3+1+1 it would probably be not because of personal preference, but because that combination is considered sub-optimal, which would indicate problem with the design in the first place.
However, consider another problem:
Let's say that players queue up 3+1+1 with the roles they intend to play...but the group just fails. Now for example the group might have 2 Paladins...one queued as Tank, the other as healer. Then it becomes apparent that one of them is just not good at its role, so they would like to switch...the Tank switches to Heal and vice versa. The group would still have 3+1+1, but we have lost the flexibility to do this.
I'm not asking for a change here, and personally this will not affect me. I do realize that there is a problem....my point is just that instead of imposing restrictions, I think it would be more effective to make people really want to run a 3+1+1 combination, by making sure it was really optimal.
The only goal of the restriction is to prevent abuse such as riding the tank queue and then switching to a DPS immediately on entry, etc.
OK, I am going to be difficult here and ask why that should be considered abuse? You have said yourself that the goal is to make "3DPS+Tank+Healer" optimal, so if people are want to switch to a different setup, or switch roles inside dungeons, doesn't it mean that the real problem is that you failed in reaching that goal?
I don't see the inability to switch roles as a dealbreaker, but it will probably lead to more groups (primarily random ones) failing, as people are not able to adapt to special situations. Quite frankly I think the benefits are smaller than the drawbacks.
I don't mean to be difficult back, but I'm having trouble following your logic. If for instance, someone who wants to play a Dreadnought queues as a Vanguard, intending to switch when they are inside, leaving the group without a tank and unable to progress until someone is kicked—how is that an indication that the 3DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer meta has failed?
Even if the meta is implemented perfectly, there will still be deficits in tanks and healers during most playtimes. Hopefully we can introduce more incentives to reduce those deficits, but those sorts of situations do lead to people trying to game the system with multi-role classes. (I've experienced these situations myself as a player in other games many a time, and seen various games handle the issue with varying degrees of grace.)
Now, you may be asking: why would anyone do that, won't people just kick them as soon as the timer is up? Well, that may be true in a 5 player dungeon where everyone queued independently, but things start to get more complicated when you look at 10 player content, or 5 player groups where a partial premade queued in and got matched with 1 or 2 random pugs. When the system allows it partial premades can use all sorts of exploitive behavior to manipulate their queue position and steal tanks and healers off the top of the queue as "replacements."
My issue is still with pre-mades. I understand people want the freedom to choose, but since it seems that no barrier to Role swapping will be implemented in private queues, I'm right back at my initial question, which is.
"What do Wizards, Rogues and Rangers bring to end game dungeons that the other 5 don't?"
Without the same level of Role flexibility what are you going to do to help give those three classes have the same desirability as the 5 multi role classes? If their combined dual paragon DPS potential is the same as a multi role DPS/support... what can be done to make people even consider a pure DPS over the flexibility of an equally capable DPS, who can also Heal or Tank when the situation arises?
If I'm building a pre-made through LFG in Protectors, and I'm looking at a 21K Wizard, and a 21K Warlock, what possible reason would I have for picking the Wizard over the Warlock? Rogue vs Barbarian? Hunter vs Fighter?
I think this is likely to present a bigger issue than the potential of partial pre-mades, stealing Tanks and Healers from Random Queues. It's risking more than one third of the classes available being regarded as sub par before the Mod even goes live.
If it takes more than 3 or 4 days of Live play for this to become the "norm" for end game LFG I'll be very surprised.
You see, the thing about the "Meta" isn't necessarily that it IS better, it just needs to be perceived as being. There have been several occasions when I got into an LFG "Meta" group for Castle Ravenloft, and found that either the person putting the group together, or at least a couple of the people IN the group had no idea of how the Meta worked. They'd read on some blog that "This..." is the best group build for end game and just followed the instructions, without understanding them. The 4/3/3 meta is so blindingly EASY to follow that even my Rogue will be able to understand it with his 8 intelligence. "You, whatever your name is... when we say NOW, you switch Paragon and do that role... when we say NOW again, you switch back, got it?"
And let me be quite clear. I'm not in favour of limiting players options through putting gates in place to stop Role Swapping. I AM in favour of all 8 classes having a level playing field given that this overhaul has mainly been driven by a need for balance.
So, what I want to know is what are you going to do to avoid the 4/3/3 scenario leaving three main classes out of the loop? And though I really, really, hope I'm wrong I don't think that "hoping" is going to work on this one. As soon as a couple of bloggers and youtubers start saying that the 4/3/3 is a better option than 3/1/1 you will see it become the standard for end game LFG.
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
edited March 2019
> @adinosii said: > > If people generally want some other combination than 3+1+1 it would probably be not because of personal preference, but because that combination is considered sub-optimal, which would indicate problem with the design in the first place.... ... instead of imposing restrictions, I think it would be more effective to make people really want to run a 3+1+1 combination, by making sure it was really optimal.
This sums it up perfectly, ty.
When you "Push" a suboptimal composition by setting heavy restrictions, you should expect players to find ways around the restriction.
"Pull" instead of "Push" is better.
"Pull" us into self-enforcing 3+1+1 by setting the content , feats and powers to require it for a smooth run.
Players will be happier and those tricking the queue will always get kicked in a "Pull" system.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
It was aleady mentioned few times but but I haven't seen replay (if i didn't noticed it my apology). Could one of developers create new thread with patchnotes where would be posted changes implemented with weekly updates? That would make easier to check if changes working as intended.
My experience with leveling up was extremely positive. Quests were easy to understand and enemies were more responsive and situated than before on previous encounters throughout the game. I haven’t experienced a single animation breakdown or a glitch anywhere. This is a major + from my perspective. A job well done! There were no situations where enemies behaved abruptly, although that just might be my experience alone. There was just this one part of the story where a bunch of mobs hurled at me from the forest. It was a bit unexpected, but I managed to go around it with just one death. Problem was that I used a single target loadout. Of course, oppressive force managed to deal with the problem several times.
STORY:
I was pleasantly surprised at the story progression and the amount of detail and work put behind this. I hope that the animation team and artsy developers had a blast whilst making all of this. Really solid work. I was amazed with new enemies and models which were not buggy nor behaved in a weird way which was usually the case before, over and over again, whenever a new class got introduced or enemy. They all had some sort of a fail, but I haven’t notice such a thing now. Each new zone was pleasant to the eyes and several times I was like “wow, look at this how pretty it looks”… It felt like I was playing a solo campaign RPG from 2004. year or similar. It had such great fluidity.
POWERS:
The powers, well, they are a mess, okay. Although they feel good, they should be increased by maybe 10-15%? Synergy of powers should be done better. I play as a Wizard and although I did not have any troubles, whatsoever, in beating content, the powers obviously could have a better use down the line. This, of course, I figure to be something that will develop over the time, but at the moment powers are not as useful as they appear so At-Wills in combination with Dailies and Artifacts is the way to go. Encounters, yeah, they feel like mini artifacts if you get me. Small bonuses you do just to make that one or two enemies disappear. I have found myself collecting all enemies around and using Oppressive Force to progress further. The last daily to pick should last for 100% more time, especially since Wizards are not really that strong now when most powers are randomly attributed without a clear distinction of what is what and where goes where.
CHANGE OF PACE:
The change of pace is a big shock, as I got used to playing everything extremely fast. I constantly played with Steal Time on Spell Mastery and was notorious for throwing many people off the edge. Especially arrogant GWFs. They were the sweetest. But this seems to be gone now and that’s the point I miss the most in-game... The game feels slower now and there is more time to enjoy the content itself. It provided me with something to enjoy whilst playing and beating content, a bit of a positive change in my opinion. But please note, this is only me and my opinion is rather unique and will differ from majority almost always. I missed this possibility and I enjoyed playing like this away from having to “do dungeons always”. I’m not sure that it will be something that other players will acknowledge or like as most people got used to “getting optimized for meta” since that was all the rage for them over prolonged time… Please note that people who enjoyed previous meta and got used to having their power buffed up by Ops, people who got used to tank with extra HP, people who got used to all of that will not like it at all. For most people this will be a de facto “MOD 6”, something that they will experience the same way I personally experienced it back in the days. Most people started playing after MOD8-10. They won’t be able to really appreciate such a dramatic, sudden and effective change of pace as they haven’t been playing Neverwinter since its inception days. They won’t be able to get over this and a lot of arguments may arise in the process, not to mention extreme negativity. This is why I urge you to make possibility to exchange Black Ice Enchantments of higher rank for whatever/whichever other Enchantment of the same quality that people may prefer. This is fundamental necessity in order to mitigate/avoid and do a proper damage control that people can actually ease up a bit. Even with the ability to do so, people will still be at a major loss due to an overall change of pace and loss of points whilst having to, again, upgrade enchantments. So, yes, this has to happen and I wonder why it haven’t already?
ENEMY ENCOUNTERS:
There is a sense of battle with each enemy encounter now. Solid work! I feel like the combat and abilities of monsters are coming as more potent now. Necessity to take care and put forward skill is more prominent now. No more “standing in one place and playing with one hand” scenarios. This I see as a good change because enemies can easily gank upon your toon now and kill in a manner of seconds. And if you do not have a daily ready or a potion up – you’re gone! Solid work, yes! This is a good change in my opinion as it isn’t boring anymore. I liked how the new mechanic works in terms of abilities which are purely quest related. Again, felt like another game completely and the change was super positive! I liked throwing alchemy potions at enemies and turning them into fish, especially because it also gave me EXP and loot. However, the change of pace should meet the reward system. If it takes a long time to get something, whilst it rewards with a simple Emerald or Black Pearl, which is a major letdown. I think that this “get black pearl upon quest complete” should disappear. Instead, people should probably have the option to choose more EXP or a refine item of some higher up quality no lesser than Sapphire/Black Opal per quest complete. I do not feel like there is a big incentive to play quests in terms of rewards. There are no real rewards and people just want t get to highest level as soon as possible in order to get to the dungeon as soon as possible in order to get all the BiS equipment as soon as possible. Yes, majority will do that, no question about it.
BUT.
Quests should still offer a lot of possibility for players to earn something whilst they are doing them. Gear is fine, especially green one, but then again most players already come with their epic gear and not once did I feel the need to change any sort of gear prior to hitting level 80. It is just not there, okay? As much as it looks nice, I’m salvaging it all.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Okay, Wizards have been having robes and stuff like that for a long, long, long time. And those look ugly, plain and simple. U.G.L.Y. I do not want to have any sort of TOGA or apron on my Wizard, I need pants, shirt and a mean looking armor. Ninja-like maybe. Something in the vein of Black Ice vest. Something that won’t look like I have an apron on. Something that won’t look like a skirt. Please, do not underestimate the necessity for wizards to look mean, powerful and mighty. I feel like all other classes have far better fashion design and wizards lack a lot in that sense when it comes down to cool stuff. Give us GUYS something to wear properly without having to look like high priests of Osiris or some HAMSTER like that. Please, no! Just, no. Boots of Dominance are the sweetest looking boots I’ve seen for a Wizard and I’m lucky to have one pair. Most wizards like hoodies, black color, awesome looking spikes here or there, some cool wraps, something that will make them look and/or appear different to that of other players around having the same gear. We like to express our “wizardry” in the way of unique and cool looking armor. It can be cloth, sure, but something more in tune with our powers. We do not want just orbs, we want orbs that look more like Elk Tribe orb or Bear Clan orb or similar to that. Psion shards? Count me in! I mean Psionic shards are in-game since forever but we can’t have them despite them being in the code and taking up space on HDD? I want the ability to pick each and every orb since forever and each and every fashion item since forever. Why do they have to go *poof*? I need a better fashion system and ability to see colors BEFORE applying them, more so since each fashion item comes with a different set of lighting. Cowl of the Undead has a more vivid color than most gear around. In a combination. Up to three different colors, yes, but as a “preview” function. Color no 1 = three different colors, Color no 2 = Adding a special color layer on top of previous one, Color no 3 = overlay of an accent or similar to that. I want elementals gear to have different jewels around, green, red, yellow, stuff like that to make it look more appealing. And changing colors of the jewels would be awesome, too. Bigger ORBS. At least 0.5 in size more than what it is now. Make it be noticeable and not just because of the weapon enchantment effect. I want that people see orbs that follow me around. They should be as visible as book transmutes are. Not just plain balls for children’s in kindergarten, but actual glorious looking orbs. In the vein of Elk Tribe orbs… I’m not saying smaller orbs should go, no, but I want some ability to pick. Some diversity in terms of weapon choices. Maybe more books, maybe more unique figurines, maybe even crafting an orb out of little pieces, like a puzzle. And the end product can be something unique to every person. There is so much possibility there to implement. Wizards have been lacking nice looking gear since forever! I’m still going to use fashion from back in MOD2-3-4… Maybe orbs with interior animations! That would be wow! I would personally adore an orb with planets of the solar system. Each orb to have a small set of planets orbiting around. I think that would be the coolest thing. But first things first – no more aprons below the waist area. Cut that out. I’ve seen a recent addition and someone put an apron on a previous apron-free cloth item. Just WTF! Really, no wizard I know likes that. They hate it. Utter hatred. Hatred in its purest form. They’d rather not wear anything than having to wear that. It’s just not cool enough in this game. Sorry guys, but that’s the reality.
BATTLES AND COMPANION USE:
Some companions are completely useless in battles as their response time is completely lame. If you can slot any pet nowadays and they all keep their way of fighting, what is the point? It perhaps served a case in previous mods, but now some pets are useless beyond measure. This needs to be adjusted. ENEMIES AND MODELS:
WHOO! Bravo! Finally, some new models and some new looks here and there. I felt very steampunk and as if I came into an old Superman cartoon with all those robots around me being made. Giants casually working on little robots, or one giant casually leaning onto the wall. Details like that HELP a lot with immersion and the sense of quality of game. To see robots coming out of those portals was such an eye candy. It made me smile and it felt good! Really, really great job!
LOOT:
Coincidentally or not, I haven’t found any amount of higher level loot dropping from enemies. Most of the loot was found directly from quests. However, I did find a very, very positive increase of Black Pearl and Aquamarine drops from enemy encounters. Please, keep it as it is and do not reduce the amount. This is a positive change and people deserve it after having to upgrade everything again. The Dungeon Chest, however, was dropping BELT OF LATHANDER. That shouldn’t be possible. Don’t do that to people as that is rage quit friendly.
ATMOSPHERE:
Spot on! Mad Wizard searching for something on places, teleporting around, enemies strolling around, mushrooms in caves… Great atmosphere for the new mod. Plunging deep. Of course, that is nowhere near how I imagined it, but then again it is awesome. To some extent it reminded me of Dragon’s Dogma DLC pack. Mad Wizard reminded me of Death in that DLC. However, I have found that the game could use a complete overhaul of the MUSIC score. Okay, OST is not something to forget. Each game needs a good music score. It won’t take a lot of MB and frankly I think that anyone could save up to 2GB of HDD/SSD space for a bit more music.
MUSIC is what keeps people playing more, too. Music is extremely important. Do not stick with just one or two OST. Make your OST memorable and not because it is the one the same song in PE that keeps going on and on forever with the sound effects from some coffee place or busy town premade library sound. Make it something a bit more unique. It doesn’t have to be orchestrated, no, but it should be a bit more thematic. Something maybe done on Nordic instruments or similar. Like MOD10 music, but a bit better. Something mysterious. A choir of women or men wouldn’t hurt here or there. Some drums. Some guitar/string instrument. Nyckelharpa with drums sounds good to me. But you think of something and PLEASE do. 5 years of the same song in PE is long enough I think.
That would be it. Thank you
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I beat you to the punch and replied 2 minutes before you reposted your question! Sorry it took so long, I just managed to get caught up on replying to feedback on this thread.
I would also like other developers to have the same dedication to answering and maintaining a dialogue between player and developer, but unfortunately this is not what happens in the warlock thread.
I will be honest, I only wrote a post in that thread, but when I noticed the total lack of dialogue and the huge disparity between the threads, I did not feel encouraged to keep giving feedback.
if it keeps going like this, there will only remain one thing to do…
because in the current state it is impossible to fix this class without the direct contribution of those who have been playing it for years.
4
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
@asterdahl as much as I appreciate your candor I hope you are getting enough sleep, if not, get some rest as you have certainly earned it.
> I am of the opinion that dps/support should not be as good dps as a dps/dps. The reason being: it gives them 2 complete "classes", instead of only 1. In order for dps/dps specs to have both paths do something distinct and different, it usually means differentiating between AoE and single target, or the likes. In other words, 1 of the paths fundamentally has a weakness that the other role can fill, thus to play the class properly you are reliant on changing loadouts. In contrast, the dps/support, being good at both in a single loadout means their dps spec is objectively "better" then a dps/dps, which can only dps.
>
> I think a dps/support should only have an AoE dps or only have a single target dps loadout, it should not be able to do both. This way it is as good as a dps in 1 type of combat, but then falls flat otherwise. This makes its roles equal to that of a dps/dps. That, or it should be able to do both at 80-90% of the effectiveness of a dps/dps, but, by design, they should be imo a worse dps then a pure dps, there is always a tradeoff for having 2 roles.
>
> What is the point of being a specialist dps if a support with a dps spec can do the same thing as you and do something else.
I have to disagree here, if a class has a dps path, is supposed to que as dps, then it also should deal competetive dps to other dps classes. For example: An Arbiter DC should be as good a dps as a cw or tr or hr, BUT an arbiter DC that is supposed to be dps shouldnt be able to heal at all.
If we say classes with 2 roles should inherently be worse then "specialists" why then would i ever play a none specialist. If a warlock will always be a bad dps and a bad healer then why would i want to play that.
Both point of views are somehow right, just want to add something. Great missing of this rework is control role: ranger/wizard/rogue second path would be perfect place for it. It has been said there is no content where CC has a place, but I am quite confident that the purpose of M16 is also creating the basis to (re)introduce maps where actually party will need it. Current power allocation is allowing arbiter cleric to heal and devout to deal damage, same as other "hybrid" classes. Problem starts while divinity/spark/whatever-based powers (expecially the ones with no CD, to be specific) damage encounter are in the common section. These spells are generally quite powerful, and applying them to a spec with a way more dynamic divinity/spark/whatever generation (because they need it to heal) is providing a great damage output, situationally better than the DPS spec itself. I see big issues coming from that, because that's both making balancing process way harder and making that classes more useful overall in a random queue.
So from my understanding regarding class role so far, dps/dps can only asume dps role in a group but has the ability to switch between paragon ( to enhance build effectiveness ) during a dungeon run. Dps/support has more option in picking a role during group setup but is unable to switch between role during a dungeon run. Sound fair to me.
1
therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
edited March 2019
@asterdahl About the meta... have you thought about the option to drop the "required meta" completly and change it to some kind of a "supported meta"?
That means no requirement checks, neither for premade, nor for pugs. If five DC healers want to run CR, let them try. However, if a group runs as the "supported meta", every role will get a bonus: the tank will get a HP and/or defence boost, the healer will get a boost to his healing abilitys and the three DPS will get a boost power or a crit cap increase to 75% or something like that.
The bonus check is permanently active in queues. That means if the group decides - in the middle of a run - to switch away from the "supported meta", they will loose any bonus. If they switch back to the "supported meta", the bonus will be on again. (Additional benefit: it would make it very easy for two Paladins to switch tank/healer roles)
Of course, the difficulty of content should be build around the "supported meta".
I think you should add an option to get lvl. 80 (or at least 70) immediately. I would love to test more classes but I dont have enough time to go through the exping process from the beginning. And it would be really good if you could give us an option to get the new gear for free as well.
Comments
Yes, technically you are at an advantage by playing a class that can both tank and DPS, if all the DPS paths are equally well balanced. However, that is only a flexibility advantage that doesn't come into play in a single run. That flexibility is of course, important to some people, and it seems like, with how strong you are arguing in favor of dual DPS-path classes being stronger, it may be important to you. So I can certainly understand the frustration with your class of choice not gaining the flexibility that some other classes have gained.
That being said, I think there are still a lot of people who will be happy to play Wizard, Rogue, and Ranger because they prefer the playstyle, or because they wouldn't be interested in performing a tank or healing role even if it were available to them.
> I am of the opinion that dps/support should not be as good dps as a dps/dps. The reason being: it gives them 2 complete "classes", instead of only 1. In order for dps/dps specs to have both paths do something distinct and different, it usually means differentiating between AoE and single target, or the likes. In other words, 1 of the paths fundamentally has a weakness that the other role can fill, thus to play the class properly you are reliant on changing loadouts. In contrast, the dps/support, being good at both in a single loadout means their dps spec is objectively "better" then a dps/dps, which can only dps.
>
> I think a dps/support should only have an AoE dps or only have a single target dps loadout, it should not be able to do both. This way it is as good as a dps in 1 type of combat, but then falls flat otherwise. This makes its roles equal to that of a dps/dps. That, or it should be able to do both at 80-90% of the effectiveness of a dps/dps, but, by design, they should be imo a worse dps then a pure dps, there is always a tradeoff for having 2 roles.
>
> What is the point of being a specialist dps if a support with a dps spec can do the same thing as you and do something else.
I have to disagree here, if a class has a dps path, is supposed to que as dps, then it also should deal competetive dps to other dps classes. For example: An Arbiter DC should be as good a dps as a cw or tr or hr, BUT an arbiter DC that is supposed to be dps shouldnt be able to heal at all.
If we say classes with 2 roles should inherently be worse then "specialists" why then would i ever play a none specialist. If a warlock will always be a bad dps and a bad healer then why would i want to play that.
Changes or not, good or bad, I want to say (and repeat what was posted elsewhere) that the unprecedented amount of replies and level of communication by you didn't go unnoticed both here on open preview and closed.
Thanks, it is appreciated.
Obviously own preview right now there are many bugs, and we are still working out the final tuning for enemies and player power, as we've changed everything dramatically. But I assure you as we close in on the final release, we will be making absolutely sure that we haven't suddenly made it impossible for any class to solo in any of the content you're used to soloing.
The one possible exception to this is if you were frequently soloing group content, which is now being scaled. Long term we'd like to look into some solutions for this, but we don't have anything planned for Module 16.
I think that as we narrow in zone balance, and fix the numerous outstanding scaling issues, solo play should be absolutely fine for every class.
Basically, tanks get +50% HP or something, DPS gets +50% DPS, healers get +50% AP gain or CDR or something in dungeons, and those bonuses disappear once you leave the dungeons, and outside of them, the difference between the classes in DPS and survivability is minimal enough so classes do feel like they're in their role, but still find it possible to finish the quests.
Anyhow, I guess it could work like Everfrost resist or something - in case something creates some sort of a balancing wall (which can happen, and it's hell to handle it in single player games, thank god I don't make multiplayer games xD), I believe role bonuses could work. If the enemies are slightly upscaled so they could actually feel threatening, it's an easy way to do it.
I understand that the arguments that follow are on the assumption that the benefits of switching paragon paths mid run provides a tangible benefit. Although with player attitudes and elitist natures sometimes it only needs to be a perceivable benefit rather than an actual realizable one!
So premade groups will (ultimately (mod 16 or beyond)) be able to switch their internal roles when running an instance between tank/healer/dps? but not for pugs? Premades will be able to change to 2xtank or 2xheal or 4xdps at any time within an instance and to gain an advantage but an equivalent pug can not?
Firstly, this will push the dps/dps classes into being more undesired for end game premade content; Wizard, Rogue and Ranger will not have the group flexibility in role changing (and certainly when they don't bring any better dps than a mixed role class). I can not see how this is a good thing; and it's potentially goodbye to these classes for many end game groups!! The utility of barbarian, fighter, cleric, warlock as mixed paragon classes will make them far more desirable.
Secondly, I can not see how this is fair for people who play pugs rather than premades. Premades will have an advantage (over and above the obvious (fair) benefits from being premade) by being able to perform this role switching. Why do they need, require, or should have advantage of this over and above the players who pug content? Not sure why pug players are deemed less deserving or premade players more deserving?
Thirdly, this brings future balancing issues. What do you balance end game content toward going forward. Premades with this ability, or pugs without it? You surely have to balance to the lowest denominator as surely an equivalent pug should be able to complete anything an equivalent premade does; given equal player skills of course. There is potential premades will be complaining content is too easy.
Again I do realise this all assumes the switching benefit will be just that, a beneift. But then that begs the question that if it isn't why not just not allow it.
Personally my take is premade and pug should not differ as it is discriminatory if this is done. Once you enter an instance in a role you should be locked in that role for that instance. If you start as tank you stay as tank, start as dps you stay as dps, etc. Dps can switch between dps paragon paths as that does not break the model. A premade should be able to enter with any setup it desires but these are locked from point of entry... once you make you're bed you get to sleep in it.
I don't see the inability to switch roles as a dealbreaker, but it will probably lead to more groups (primarily random ones) failing, as people are not able to adapt to special situations. Quite frankly I think the benefits are smaller than the drawbacks.
Hopefully we can get balance to the point that, 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps is the right choice whenever possible, and that nothing is so significantly off the rails difficult when compared to the piece of content as a whole that switching a 2nd healer or tank in is actually necessary in a run. If we get to that point, there is really no benefit to a premade being able to switch in a 2nd healer or tank, as that's just letting them perhaps run through the content slower, to carry an under geared teammate through. (No one intentionally switches to a slower group layout.)
But I absolutely understand the concern and we will be carefully weighing the options.
Even if the meta is implemented perfectly, there will still be deficits in tanks and healers during most playtimes. Hopefully we can introduce more incentives to reduce those deficits, but those sorts of situations do lead to people trying to game the system with multi-role classes. (I've experienced these situations myself as a player in other games many a time, and seen various games handle the issue with varying degrees of grace.)
Now, you may be asking: why would anyone do that, won't people just kick them as soon as the timer is up? Well, that may be true in a 5 player dungeon where everyone queued independently, but things start to get more complicated when you look at 10 player content, or 5 player groups where a partial premade queued in and got matched with 1 or 2 random pugs. When the system allows it partial premades can use all sorts of exploitive behavior to manipulate their queue position and steal tanks and healers off the top of the queue as "replacements."
However, consider another problem:
Let's say that players queue up 3+1+1 with the roles they intend to play...but the group just fails. Now for example the group might have 2 Paladins...one queued as Tank, the other as healer. Then it becomes apparent that one of them is just not good at its role, so they would like to switch...the Tank switches to Heal and vice versa. The group would still have 3+1+1, but we have lost the flexibility to do this.
I'm not asking for a change here, and personally this will not affect me. I do realize that there is a problem....my point is just that instead of imposing restrictions, I think it would be more effective to make people really want to run a 3+1+1 combination, by making sure it was really optimal.
I understand people want the freedom to choose, but since it seems that no barrier to Role swapping will be implemented in private queues, I'm right back at my initial question, which is.
"What do Wizards, Rogues and Rangers bring to end game dungeons that the other 5 don't?"
Without the same level of Role flexibility what are you going to do to help give those three classes have the same desirability as the 5 multi role classes? If their combined dual paragon DPS potential is the same as a multi role DPS/support... what can be done to make people even consider a pure DPS over the flexibility of an equally capable DPS, who can also Heal or Tank when the situation arises?
If I'm building a pre-made through LFG in Protectors, and I'm looking at a 21K Wizard, and a 21K Warlock, what possible reason would I have for picking the Wizard over the Warlock? Rogue vs Barbarian? Hunter vs Fighter?
I think this is likely to present a bigger issue than the potential of partial pre-mades, stealing Tanks and Healers from Random Queues.
It's risking more than one third of the classes available being regarded as sub par before the Mod even goes live.
If it takes more than 3 or 4 days of Live play for this to become the "norm" for end game LFG I'll be very surprised.
You see, the thing about the "Meta" isn't necessarily that it IS better, it just needs to be perceived as being.
There have been several occasions when I got into an LFG "Meta" group for Castle Ravenloft, and found that either the person putting the group together, or at least a couple of the people IN the group had no idea of how the Meta worked. They'd read on some blog that "This..." is the best group build for end game and just followed the instructions, without understanding them.
The 4/3/3 meta is so blindingly EASY to follow that even my Rogue will be able to understand it with his 8 intelligence.
"You, whatever your name is... when we say NOW, you switch Paragon and do that role... when we say NOW again, you switch back, got it?"
And let me be quite clear. I'm not in favour of limiting players options through putting gates in place to stop Role Swapping.
I AM in favour of all 8 classes having a level playing field given that this overhaul has mainly been driven by a need for balance.
So, what I want to know is what are you going to do to avoid the 4/3/3 scenario leaving three main classes out of the loop?
And though I really, really, hope I'm wrong I don't think that "hoping" is going to work on this one.
As soon as a couple of bloggers and youtubers start saying that the 4/3/3 is a better option than 3/1/1 you will see it become the standard for end game LFG.
>
> If people generally want some other combination than 3+1+1 it would probably be not because of personal preference, but because that combination is considered sub-optimal, which would indicate problem with the design in the first place....
... instead of imposing restrictions, I think it would be more effective to make people really want to run a 3+1+1 combination, by making sure it was really optimal.
This sums it up perfectly, ty.
When you "Push" a suboptimal composition by setting heavy restrictions, you should expect players to find ways around the restriction.
"Pull" instead of "Push" is better.
"Pull" us into self-enforcing 3+1+1 by setting the content , feats and powers to require it for a smooth run.
Players will be happier and those tricking the queue will always get kicked in a "Pull" system.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
It was aleady mentioned few times but but I haven't seen replay (if i didn't noticed it my apology).
Could one of developers create new thread with patchnotes where would be posted changes implemented with weekly updates?
That would make easier to check if changes working as intended.
My experience with leveling up was extremely positive. Quests were easy to understand and enemies were more responsive and situated than before on previous encounters throughout the game. I haven’t experienced a single animation breakdown or a glitch anywhere. This is a major + from my perspective. A job well done!
There were no situations where enemies behaved abruptly, although that just might be my experience alone. There was just this one part of the story where a bunch of mobs hurled at me from the forest. It was a bit unexpected, but I managed to go around it with just one death. Problem was that I used a single target loadout. Of course, oppressive force managed to deal with the problem several times.
STORY:
I was pleasantly surprised at the story progression and the amount of detail and work put behind this. I hope that the animation team and artsy developers had a blast whilst making all of this. Really solid work. I was amazed with new enemies and models which were not buggy nor behaved in a weird way which was usually the case before, over and over again, whenever a new class got introduced or enemy. They all had some sort of a fail, but I haven’t notice such a thing now.
Each new zone was pleasant to the eyes and several times I was like “wow, look at this how pretty it looks”… It felt like I was playing a solo campaign RPG from 2004. year or similar. It had such great fluidity.
POWERS:
The powers, well, they are a mess, okay. Although they feel good, they should be increased by maybe 10-15%? Synergy of powers should be done better. I play as a Wizard and although I did not have any troubles, whatsoever, in beating content, the powers obviously could have a better use down the line. This, of course, I figure to be something that will develop over the time, but at the moment powers are not as useful as they appear so At-Wills in combination with Dailies and Artifacts is the way to go. Encounters, yeah, they feel like mini artifacts if you get me. Small bonuses you do just to make that one or two enemies disappear. I have found myself collecting all enemies around and using Oppressive Force to progress further.
The last daily to pick should last for 100% more time, especially since Wizards are not really that strong now when most powers are randomly attributed without a clear distinction of what is what and where goes where.
CHANGE OF PACE:
The change of pace is a big shock, as I got used to playing everything extremely fast. I constantly played with Steal Time on Spell Mastery and was notorious for throwing many people off the edge. Especially arrogant GWFs. They were the sweetest. But this seems to be gone now and that’s the point I miss the most in-game... The game feels slower now and there is more time to enjoy the content itself. It provided me with something to enjoy whilst playing and beating content, a bit of a positive change in my opinion. But please note, this is only me and my opinion is rather unique and will differ from majority almost always.
I missed this possibility and I enjoyed playing like this away from having to “do dungeons always”. I’m not sure that it will be something that other players will acknowledge or like as most people got used to “getting optimized for meta” since that was all the rage for them over prolonged time…
Please note that people who enjoyed previous meta and got used to having their power buffed up by Ops, people who got used to tank with extra HP, people who got used to all of that will not like it at all. For most people this will be a de facto “MOD 6”, something that they will experience the same way I personally experienced it back in the days. Most people started playing after MOD8-10. They won’t be able to really appreciate such a dramatic, sudden and effective change of pace as they haven’t been playing Neverwinter since its inception days. They won’t be able to get over this and a lot of arguments may arise in the process, not to mention extreme negativity.
This is why I urge you to make possibility to exchange Black Ice Enchantments of higher rank for whatever/whichever other Enchantment of the same quality that people may prefer. This is fundamental necessity in order to mitigate/avoid and do a proper damage control that people can actually ease up a bit. Even with the ability to do so, people will still be at a major loss due to an overall change of pace and loss of points whilst having to, again, upgrade enchantments. So, yes, this has to happen and I wonder why it haven’t already?
ENEMY ENCOUNTERS:
There is a sense of battle with each enemy encounter now. Solid work! I feel like the combat and abilities of monsters are coming as more potent now. Necessity to take care and put forward skill is more prominent now. No more “standing in one place and playing with one hand” scenarios. This I see as a good change because enemies can easily gank upon your toon now and kill in a manner of seconds. And if you do not have a daily ready or a potion up – you’re gone! Solid work, yes! This is a good change in my opinion as it isn’t boring anymore.
I liked how the new mechanic works in terms of abilities which are purely quest related. Again, felt like another game completely and the change was super positive! I liked throwing alchemy potions at enemies and turning them into fish, especially because it also gave me EXP and loot.
However, the change of pace should meet the reward system. If it takes a long time to get something, whilst it rewards with a simple Emerald or Black Pearl, which is a major letdown. I think that this “get black pearl upon quest complete” should disappear. Instead, people should probably have the option to choose more EXP or a refine item of some higher up quality no lesser than Sapphire/Black Opal per quest complete. I do not feel like there is a big incentive to play quests in terms of rewards. There are no real rewards and people just want t get to highest level as soon as possible in order to get to the dungeon as soon as possible in order to get all the BiS equipment as soon as possible. Yes, majority will do that, no question about it.
BUT.
Quests should still offer a lot of possibility for players to earn something whilst they are doing them. Gear is fine, especially green one, but then again most players already come with their epic gear and not once did I feel the need to change any sort of gear prior to hitting level 80. It is just not there, okay? As much as it looks nice, I’m salvaging it all.
Okay, Wizards have been having robes and stuff like that for a long, long, long time. And those look ugly, plain and simple. U.G.L.Y. I do not want to have any sort of TOGA or apron on my Wizard, I need pants, shirt and a mean looking armor. Ninja-like maybe. Something in the vein of Black Ice vest. Something that won’t look like I have an apron on. Something that won’t look like a skirt. Please, do not underestimate the necessity for wizards to look mean, powerful and mighty. I feel like all other classes have far better fashion design and wizards lack a lot in that sense when it comes down to cool stuff. Give us GUYS something to wear properly without having to look like high priests of Osiris or some HAMSTER like that. Please, no! Just, no.
Boots of Dominance are the sweetest looking boots I’ve seen for a Wizard and I’m lucky to have one pair.
Most wizards like hoodies, black color, awesome looking spikes here or there, some cool wraps, something that will make them look and/or appear different to that of other players around having the same gear. We like to express our “wizardry” in the way of unique and cool looking armor. It can be cloth, sure, but something more in tune with our powers. We do not want just orbs, we want orbs that look more like Elk Tribe orb or Bear Clan orb or similar to that. Psion shards? Count me in! I mean Psionic shards are in-game since forever but we can’t have them despite them being in the code and taking up space on HDD? I want the ability to pick each and every orb since forever and each and every fashion item since forever. Why do they have to go *poof*? I need a better fashion system and ability to see colors BEFORE applying them, more so since each fashion item comes with a different set of lighting. Cowl of the Undead has a more vivid color than most gear around. In a combination. Up to three different colors, yes, but as a “preview” function. Color no 1 = three different colors, Color no 2 = Adding a special color layer on top of previous one, Color no 3 = overlay of an accent or similar to that. I want elementals gear to have different jewels around, green, red, yellow, stuff like that to make it look more appealing. And changing colors of the jewels would be awesome, too.
Bigger ORBS. At least 0.5 in size more than what it is now. Make it be noticeable and not just because of the weapon enchantment effect. I want that people see orbs that follow me around. They should be as visible as book transmutes are. Not just plain balls for children’s in kindergarten, but actual glorious looking orbs. In the vein of Elk Tribe orbs… I’m not saying smaller orbs should go, no, but I want some ability to pick. Some diversity in terms of weapon choices. Maybe more books, maybe more unique figurines, maybe even crafting an orb out of little pieces, like a puzzle. And the end product can be something unique to every person. There is so much possibility there to implement. Wizards have been lacking nice looking gear since forever! I’m still going to use fashion from back in MOD2-3-4… Maybe orbs with interior animations! That would be wow! I would personally adore an orb with planets of the solar system. Each orb to have a small set of planets orbiting around. I think that would be the coolest thing. But first things first – no more aprons below the waist area. Cut that out. I’ve seen a recent addition and someone put an apron on a previous apron-free cloth item. Just WTF! Really, no wizard I know likes that. They hate it. Utter hatred. Hatred in its purest form.
They’d rather not wear anything than having to wear that. It’s just not cool enough in this game. Sorry guys, but that’s the reality.
BATTLES AND COMPANION USE:
Some companions are completely useless in battles as their response time is completely lame. If you can slot any pet nowadays and they all keep their way of fighting, what is the point? It perhaps served a case in previous mods, but now some pets are useless beyond measure. This needs to be adjusted.
ENEMIES AND MODELS:
WHOO! Bravo! Finally, some new models and some new looks here and there. I felt very steampunk and as if I came into an old Superman cartoon with all those robots around me being made. Giants casually working on little robots, or one giant casually leaning onto the wall. Details like that HELP a lot with immersion and the sense of quality of game. To see robots coming out of those portals was such an eye candy. It made me smile and it felt good! Really, really great job!
LOOT:
Coincidentally or not, I haven’t found any amount of higher level loot dropping from enemies. Most of the loot was found directly from quests. However, I did find a very, very positive increase of Black Pearl and Aquamarine drops from enemy encounters. Please, keep it as it is and do not reduce the amount. This is a positive change and people deserve it after having to upgrade everything again.
The Dungeon Chest, however, was dropping BELT OF LATHANDER. That shouldn’t be possible. Don’t do that to people as that is rage quit friendly.
ATMOSPHERE:
Spot on! Mad Wizard searching for something on places, teleporting around, enemies strolling around, mushrooms in caves… Great atmosphere for the new mod. Plunging deep. Of course, that is nowhere near how I imagined it, but then again it is awesome. To some extent it reminded me of Dragon’s Dogma DLC pack. Mad Wizard reminded me of Death in that DLC.
However, I have found that the game could use a complete overhaul of the MUSIC score. Okay, OST is not something to forget. Each game needs a good music score. It won’t take a lot of MB and frankly I think that anyone could save up to 2GB of HDD/SSD space for a bit more music.
MUSIC is what keeps people playing more, too. Music is extremely important. Do not stick with just one or two OST. Make your OST memorable and not because it is the one the same song in PE that keeps going on and on forever with the sound effects from some coffee place or busy town premade library sound. Make it something a bit more unique. It doesn’t have to be orchestrated, no, but it should be a bit more thematic.
Something maybe done on Nordic instruments or similar. Like MOD10 music, but a bit better. Something mysterious. A choir of women or men wouldn’t hurt here or there. Some drums. Some guitar/string instrument. Nyckelharpa with drums sounds good to me. But you think of something and PLEASE do. 5 years of the same song in PE is long enough I think.
That would be it. Thank you
I will be honest, I only wrote a post in that thread, but when I noticed the total lack of dialogue and the huge disparity between the threads, I did not feel encouraged to keep giving feedback.
if it keeps going like this, there will only remain one thing to do…
because in the current state it is impossible to fix this class without the direct contribution of those who have been playing it for years.
Great missing of this rework is control role: ranger/wizard/rogue second path would be perfect place for it. It has been said there is no content where CC has a place, but I am quite confident that the purpose of M16 is also creating the basis to (re)introduce maps where actually party will need it.
Current power allocation is allowing arbiter cleric to heal and devout to deal damage, same as other "hybrid" classes. Problem starts while divinity/spark/whatever-based powers (expecially the ones with no CD, to be specific) damage encounter are in the common section. These spells are generally quite powerful, and applying them to a spec with a way more dynamic divinity/spark/whatever generation (because they need it to heal) is providing a great damage output, situationally better than the DPS spec itself.
I see big issues coming from that, because that's both making balancing process way harder and making that classes more useful overall in a random queue.
About the meta... have you thought about the option to drop the "required meta" completly and change it to some kind of a "supported meta"?
That means no requirement checks, neither for premade, nor for pugs. If five DC healers want to run CR, let them try. However, if a group runs as the "supported meta", every role will get a bonus: the tank will get a HP and/or defence boost, the healer will get a boost to his healing abilitys and the three DPS will get a boost power or a crit cap increase to 75% or something like that.
The bonus check is permanently active in queues. That means if the group decides - in the middle of a run - to switch away from the "supported meta", they will loose any bonus. If they switch back to the "supported meta", the bonus will be on again. (Additional benefit: it would make it very easy for two Paladins to switch tank/healer roles)
Of course, the difficulty of content should be build around the "supported meta".
Just an idea.