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Official M16: Stats and Mechanics

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  • silvergryphsilvergryph Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 737 Arc User
    lowjohn said:

    SUGGESTION:
    Each class/role gets a "Primary Stat" that gives them a bonus to Power equal to +100 Power per stat point. I chose Power because it is directly tied to the effectiveness of each role. For DPS, Power means more damage. Tanks benefit from this as well because more damage means more threat. For Healers, Power means more Hit Points healed. Since this is a stat with no cap it will always be useful to every character, and to both roles for classes with two. Here's how I would set it up, of course opinions will vary:

    Barbarian: STR (Both)
    Cleric: WIS (Both)
    Fighter: CON (Vanguard) or STR (Dreadnought)
    Paladin: CON (Justicar) or CHA (Oathkeeper)
    Ranger: DEX (Hunter) or STR (Warden)
    Rogue: DEX (Both)
    Warlock: CHA (Both)
    Wizard: INT (Both)

    Paladin's starting stats need to be changed regardless. I would suggest:
    Paladin: STR: 12, CON: 16, DEX: 8, INT: 8, WIS: 14, CHA: 16
    (That's the Warlock array with the numbers shuffled around.)

    One downside of your suggestion: Paragon Paths are chosen at level 30, not at character creation. And characters will expect to swap loadouts regularly. I'm not saying it's bad to have it depend on path, just that it's awkward for the three dual-primary classes you've got.
    That's a good point. The first thing that comes to mind is make the Primary stat something that starts at level 30. But, the problem with that is that you get stat points to allocate at levels 10 and 20 creating the opportunity to make uninformed mistakes. And with the current arrays, points may seem wasted on Fighter and Ranger if the paths aren't differentiated because the arrays split between the two stats. Paladin is all CON in the current array though and could easily go straight CON. I suggested the split that matches my suggested change to the Paladin array because I think it reflects the expectations of actual D&D players. So, it looks like there are too many problems associated with my idea.

    I do stand by my suggested array for Paladins though.
  • williamyouwilliamyou Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    ghoulz66 said:

    New stats/counter stats are insane and unreasonable. You cannot expect casual players to ever hit the required cap for all of these.

    All this is going to do is divide the elite from the peasants further.

    Actually this give casual players a better chance example: My pally has capped stats with NO rank 15 enchants, Companion Stats with quest item's only rank 8 runestones, NO legendary Mount Insignia MOD 15 weapon set. ((((AND CROWN PURCHASED GEAR AND RINGS))))) So capped stats are easy to get. P.S. and no new aritifacts
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    lowjohn said:


    One downside of your suggestion: Paragon Paths are chosen at level 30, not at character creation. And characters will expect to swap loadouts regularly. I'm not saying it's bad to have it depend on path, just that it's awkward for the three dual-primary classes you've got.


    * Allow for different base ability score rolls per loadout, so we could put 18 in our dps ability score in one, and 18 in our tank/heal ability score for the other loadout. But that would only work if we're allowed to allocate the scores into whatever abilities we want, which would be really nice for pvp loadouts too, I like to have a tankier build for pvp.
    * To make it easier for new players, they could easily show information about what ability scores they suggest and why at character creation, but still allow us to make the choice.
    * And perhaps instead of rolls, we could have a score array 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8... or whatever and allow us to arrange those scores into whatever abilities we want, which is actually a rule variant in the player's handbook iirc.

  • fdsakhfduewhfiuffdsakhfduewhfiuf Member Posts: 604 Arc User
    Recruit's Training boon does not give 2000 HP per rank but a much lower value (200?). Five ranks of the boon increased my HP from 224056 to only 226246.
  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    nisckis said:


    For level 80 content the player would need:

    Combat Advantage = 69,000
    Defense = 64,000
    Deflect = 49,000
    Critical Strike = 46,500
    Armor Pen = 24,000
    Critical Resist = 24,000
    Awareness = 24,000
    Accuracy = 24,000

    Then of course there is whatever you put towards hit points and power.

    As @thefabricant said, and using my SW DPS as an example, there is no point in my equipment giving me neither defense nor deflect because as a DPS I'm not going to tank and overcoming those 24K stats from a level 80 enemy just to get 0% damage reduction and 0% deflect change.

    Right now on preview, I'm level 80 and I do have 15598 Defense and 10098 Deflect, so I would need:
    • 8402 (24000-15598) additional Defense to start getting any reduced damage.
    • 13902 (24000-10098) additional Deflect to start getting any deflect chance.
    So as a SW every single point of Defense and Deflect the equipment is giving me are just stats being lost because there is no way as a SW DPS that I'm going to get that many extra stat points.

    As a SW I would expect getting offensives (Power, Armor Pen, Critical Strike, Combat Advantage and Accuracy) and useful defensives (HP, Critical Resist and Awareness), but I would not expect getting points in stats that from the starting point it is known I'm not been able to stack appropriately unless that as a DPS I do stack those defensive stats instead of offensives stats and correct defensive stats.

    As a side note, I would event understand people not stacking Awareness because with due gameplay you should negate Combat Advantage just by positioning correctly.

    So please, take the time to make a new pass through the equipment for DPS and change Defense and Deflect to a mixture of HP, Critical Resist, Awareness and optionally more offensive stats.
    OK, things start to get interesting with this week patch, now companions seem give the correct amount of stats by rank/level.

    With the same equipment (although changed sehanine to augment) as last week, now I do have 28189 Defense and 21922 Deflect, so as today that means:
    • -4189 (24000-28189) additional Defense, which means 8.38% damage reduction.
    • 2078 (24000-21922) additional Deflect to start getting any deflect chance.
    This is quite a great improvement as a SW because now I don't feel like those stats from equipment just go to waste.

    By the way, Bolster seems to have no effect on augment companions, as it seems that it only affects the damage the companion does, and becuase Augments can't attack it has no effect on them. Maybe it should be made that Boltster increases the stats of the augments companions?

    Furthermore, Companion Stat Bonus seems bugged because increasing it from 10% to 14% shows no change neither in the companion nor the character stats.
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Companions are giving a lot more stats. Even though companion influence still have no effect. Bolster seems to work however.

    I traded what I could for more power and still no CA.

    With 172% crit severity my damage is now unpredictable. Sometimes I crit a lot and everything dies in seconds, sometimes I don't crit at all and it feels like my attacks are missing their target. It doesn't feel good.

    Might as well get more CA I suppose.
  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    artifleur said:

    Companions are giving a lot more stats. Even though companion influence still have no effect. Bolster seems to work however.

    I traded what I could for more power and still no CA.

    With 172% crit severity my damage is now unpredictable. Sometimes I crit a lot and everything dies in seconds, sometimes I don't crit at all and it feels like my attacks are missing their target. It doesn't feel good.

    Might as well get more CA I suppose.

    @artifleur How did you get 172% critical severity? I've got 92.5% in character + 50% from Vorpal.

    PS: character is a SW
  • b3llist0rb3llist0r Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    - Deleted. Had an error in my calculation. Sry -

    //Bellistor
    Post edited by b3llist0r on
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    nisckis said:

    artifleur said:

    Companions are giving a lot more stats. Even though companion influence still have no effect. Bolster seems to work however.

    I traded what I could for more power and still no CA.

    With 172% crit severity my damage is now unpredictable. Sometimes I crit a lot and everything dies in seconds, sometimes I don't crit at all and it feels like my attacks are missing their target. It doesn't feel good.

    Might as well get more CA I suppose.

    @artifleur How did you get 172% critical severity? I've got 92.5% in character + 50% from Vorpal.

    PS: character is a SW
    The ranger feat Skirmisher's Gambit gives an extra 30%.
  • matthiasthehun76matthiasthehun76 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,183 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Okay, so after going over the enchants, can somebody tell me what the reason behind the dumb down of enchants was.

    Playing a DPS as main, i can only see nearly everybody using the same 1 or 2 enchants on them, bloodtheft for armor and vorpal for crit.

    If the armor and weapon enchants don't get more diversity, this will make everybody look like clones.

    Pair this with the slow game mechanics and the lack of possible builds and we can prepare for sleeping in at the monitor or tearing our hair out.
    The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
    Robert E. Lee

    I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
    Winston Churchill

    The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
    David Icke

  • askir#6697 askir Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    My companion adds a straight +20% crit chance buff to allies and -40% crit chance on enemies...and now a player's crit is capped at 50%? Bummer.

    I play DC and so far I absolutely hate the changes to the class.
  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User

    My companion adds a straight +20% crit chance buff to allies and -40% crit chance on enemies...and now a player's crit is capped at 50%? Bummer.

    I play DC and so far I absolutely hate the changes to the class.

    Sehanine does NOT that effect anymore, please test things in preview server first.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,360 Arc User
    edited March 2019


    After the last patch I went from balanced stats to this. This is far too many offensive stats for a resistance of 24k.

    maybe is a bug with scaling?
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I've been thinking hard on the stats issue for players. Not satisfied with the current setup or my previous suggestions. I've come up with a formula that does what designers intended but does not completely negate stats:


    Stat x (Stat / ( Stat + 2x Antistat)) = Effective Stat


    For this equation:

    Stat is the 'Stat that provides an affect' (Defense, Deflect, CombatAdvantage, and CriticalHit%)
    Anti-Stat does nothing except modify a Stat. (ArmorPenetration, Accuracy, Awareness, and CriticalResistance)



    The formula gives an anti-Stat 66% effectiveness whenever it is equal to the Stat, instead of its current 100% negation.


    example: 40% critical vs 20% Cresistance. ---> (40 x (40/40+40)) = 20% critical chance (same as now)

    The change comes from low positive values:

    example: 10% critical vs 20% Cresistance. ---> (10 x (10/10+40) = 2% critical chance (now it gives a positive value)

  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I do have no idea what has changed inside the level 70 dungeons or with the SW but with this new patch I do have many more stats because companion stats have been corrected, but instead of cleaning dungeons more easily I almost do no damage.

    Before this week patch I could do Shores of Tuern with the level 80 Soulweaver SW , now I do almost no damage and I could not even reach the boss.

    Stats inside the dungeon.

    Weapon inside the dungeon


    Output damage


    Stats outside the dungeon

    Weapon outside the dungeon


    the SW weapon nerf inside the dungeon is absolutely extreme.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    To add to Sharp's post above, and something I posted earlier in this post and the devs brushed it off. At level 70 on live server with r10 enchantments (only 2 levels higher than the freebie gear given), primal gear, and about 14k iL (I have all boons and 750 iL from guild boons). When I transferred to preview, I was easily able to cap out on Crit, Arpen, Acc, and was well on my way to capping out Combat advantage. This is not an endgame character at all. Sure I have all the campaign boons but most of that is fluff with all the stat boons usually are the first to get. This is a casual character, and on my way to level 80 I was overcapping everything, trying to find ways to move stats into something useful. Like Sharp, I am grabbing more defensive gear just to have some improvement, even though I can survive just fine without it.

    At the end of the day, I now have a 21k iL character on preview just from leveling and grabbing new seal of the crown gear, and no incentive to really seek out new gear aside from weapons. I enjoy the new pace of gameplay, however there really needs to be that gear goal to reach and grind for with this added time that most will be needing to spend in a single dungeon compared to m15.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    Feedback: Stats System

    I know this feedback is probably going to be swallowed by a deep, dark, bottomless pit, since its feedback about a system that I know won't change, but I feel like its a bunch of band aids stuck together to resolve a problem that you created in the first place. This is how I imagine it went along:

    Dev 1: Hey, we have an issue, players have far too many stats and are capping on everything, how are we going to resolve it?
    Dev 2: I got a great idea, lets add counter stats!
    Dev 1: Great idea, how do we do it?
    Dev 2: Well, we got to keep it simple so players can understand it, lets use an additive system!
    Dev 1: But what about the fact that this incentivizes stacking as few stats as possible to not penalize yourself heavily? For example, players will either want Crit or CA and not both.
    Dev 2: Well, lets add this "combined" rating to gear, that forces you to have a certain amount of every countered stat. Then, on every piece of gear that has CA or crit, lets stick both of them.
    Dev 1: Great idea!

    And I think this is where the dev communication ended. The problem is, there is more to it then this. Firstly, Crit and CA cap at different amounts, 46.5k and 69k, but almost every piece of gear with CA on it, also has crit. This forces you to overcap crit SIGNIFICANTLY, in order to achieve a decent amount of CA. Furthermore, you have no real choice when allocating stats in gear, you will always end up with stats you don't want, because the combined rating forces you to take stats you don't want. This entire cobbled up list of solutions, just ends up restricting your choices more and more and forces you to make bad decisions, just to solve a problem created by an additive system in the first place.

    The best part is, you have not even solved the original problem. I am overcapped on every single offensive stat at the moment (by large amounts, for example, over 10k on each) and I am not even using the best gear available. However, I have no way to move these stats into power for example, because the stat templates for gear prevent combinations that you can min/max on. I can't take a power/ca piece of gear instead of a crit/ca piece of gear, since pieces with crit also have ca. I have to make deliberately bad choices because it is forced onto me by this system. I am at the point, on a dps character, where I am contemplating using gear with defense slots because I can't move my stats to power, so I may as well cap my defenses as well. This is actually worse than m15, its so much easier to hit stat caps for everything it is ridiculous.



    Here are the stats I am supposedly not supposed to be able to cap. Not only are they capped, they capped on a toon that isn't wearing the best gear and they are overcapped by such a significant amount its not even funny, with the exception of CA, which I cannot increase more without guess what, stacking more crit.




    All of this would have been avoided had you used a multiplicative system or a system with diminishing returns in the first place. The best part is, if you try and make resists high enough in content in the new system to slow down the top end, then nobody at the bottom end will be able to overcome them.

    My take is slightly different. Instead of "explaining" what 24000 points is vs whatever, there should be ranks of skills. Similar color scheme to gear (white green blue purple orange teal).

    Character's should then have the back end math just spit out a corresponding color, to tell people how good in absolute terms their stat is. Then you can have the math be as complicated as you want.

    Downside is you have to somehow distinguish between a level 80 this mod and a level 80 next mod. But basically, instead of having the players do the ridiculous math, it should just be color coded so people know "oh, I've capped out on stat X time to work on stat Y" or something.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    And here is a friend of mine's stats:


    Every single stat capped barring deflect, no augment pet.
    Post edited by thefabricant on
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    And here is a friend of mine's stats:


    Every single stat capped, no augment pet.

    Wait, you can cap all stats without an augment pet? Well damn, and here I thought mod 16 was gonna make augment pets come back into style.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    And here is a friend of mine's stats:


    Every single stat capped, no augment pet.

    Wait, you can cap all stats without an augment pet? Well damn, and here I thought mod 16 was gonna make augment pets come back into style.
    They actually overcapped, he has 9k too much arp, 7k too much crit, 9k too much crit resist, 9k too much accuracy and 5k too much awareness for a total of 39k stats incorrectly distributed. However, it is not possible for that to be moved to hp and power, the only way to lower it is to use worse gear and he isn't even using the gear from the new dungeon.
    Post edited by thefabricant on
  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    And here is a friend of mine's stats:


    Every single stat capped, no augment pet.

    Wait, you can cap all stats without an augment pet? Well damn, and here I thought mod 16 was gonna make augment pets come back into style.
    They actually overcapped, he has 9k too much arp, 7k too much crit, 9k too much crit resist, 9k too much accuracy, 9k too much deflect and 5k too much awareness for a total of 48k stats incorrectly distributed. However, it is not possible for that to be moved to hp and power, the only way to lower it is to use worse gear and he isn't even using the gear from the new dungeon.
    Can I ask which class is the character? STR/DEX doesn't look like a CW and my mind always says "thefabricant? an amazing CW"
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    nisckis said:

    And here is a friend of mine's stats:


    Every single stat capped, no augment pet.

    Wait, you can cap all stats without an augment pet? Well damn, and here I thought mod 16 was gonna make augment pets come back into style.
    They actually overcapped, he has 9k too much arp, 7k too much crit, 9k too much crit resist, 9k too much accuracy, 9k too much deflect and 5k too much awareness for a total of 48k stats incorrectly distributed. However, it is not possible for that to be moved to hp and power, the only way to lower it is to use worse gear and he isn't even using the gear from the new dungeon.
    Can I ask which class is the character? STR/DEX doesn't look like a CW and my mind always says "thefabricant? an amazing CW"
    That is a friend of mine and its a GWF.
  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Oh my god, I really needed some sleep yesterday, it was clearly stated in the post

    And here is a friend of mine's stats

  • muminekm#3459 muminekm Member Posts: 248 Arc User
    This patch stat distribution looks almost like unintendent change. But it perfectly shows how flawed is additive system with counter ratings. In the end you have lots of useless stats and you feel bad about it (since you will not reach some required counter rating cap - of course given they will change current gear numbers because those are absurd).

    So even if they decrease what's on gear I will still have for example 5-10k combined ratings and stats I'm forced to take (if I want to cap something else). It just feel stupid to have let's say 20k critical strike and 0% to crit.
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    I think the main goal is to make sure that clueless wallet warriors don't get penalized too much for picking random gear by only looking at the item-level.

    And to that extent I think it will work.

    Stats are too high atm on preview no doubt but the devs have plenty of time to adjust them or NPC's counter-stats.
  • b3llist0rb3llist0r Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Edit: Error in my calculation. Removed post.

    //Bellistor
    Post edited by b3llist0r on
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    I said it before, instead of trying to make some totally new "innovative" wheel, why not just use 5e D&D rules as close as possible in a real time system, people have been working on that game for 45 some odd years. I would be willing to bet that an honest recreation of the D&D system would bring many new players to the game, and probably some back to the game, and the best part is, all the rules are already there, all the developers would need to do is work out some edge-cases where pnp rules wouldn't work in real time, and then codify the rules. All the suggestions for balancing quests for players and parties are in the rulebooks, monsters' stats, classes, races, and everything is already done for you. I mean, you already license D&D ip right? Why not go all the way instead of this aberration we're getting.

  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    I said it before, instead of trying to make some totally new "innovative" wheel, why not just use 5e D&D rules as close as possible in a real time system, people have been working on that game for 45 some odd years. I would be willing to bet that an honest recreation of the D&D system would bring many new players to the game, and probably some back to the game, and the best part is, all the rules are already there, all the developers would need to do is work out some edge-cases where pnp rules wouldn't work in real time, and then codify the rules. All the suggestions for balancing quests for players and parties are in the rulebooks, monsters' stats, classes, races, and everything is already done for you. I mean, you already license D&D ip right? Why not go all the way instead of this aberration we're getting.

    That would be a completely different game.

    It should exist! But I don't want Cryptic's hands on it.
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