100 million damage in a single hit vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.
weak argument since that one phase was only possible with the HR doing DPS too not huge difference on the board TRs right now can do the one phase as single entity dps with 9 buffers so no thnx mate this comparison is not valid
Please understand that I am not advocating for a GWF nerf. I’m arguing that the basis that the dev is using to justify the further nerfs to TRs beyond fixing power Looping and the AoC smokebomb, are ridiculous because literally every other DPS will qualify for a nerf on that basis. Also, I hoped the various videos will show them that the problem is the buffs, not the DPSers. TRs can compete with GWFs, now. In mod 15, however, our dps will be reduced to less than 50% what it is, now.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
Some skill suggestions aimed at making the GWF less "cookie-cutter" by improving the un-used skills:
Flourish - Have damage from this skill give double AP gain. Reaping Strike - Have this skill absorb 10% of its damage as health gain, & give +10% deflection severity while charging. Grand Fissure - Have this skill give +2% damage buff and encounter skill recharge reduction per enemy hit (8 seconds). Punishing Charge - Charged enemies also interrupted and are disorganized for 6 seconds, reducing damage by 10%.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
They should remove the buff from hidden daggers and raise the base damage of all GWF powers by 40% as compensation. You will never be able to unslot that power so long as it keeps the 40% buff. Battle Fury is less of an issue. They should also probably halve most of the dps buffs for GWFs and rework them into the base damage of the class. The other feat paths will never be viable unless they either have the same self buffs as destroyer, or the power of destroyer is reduced and the overall base performance of the class is raised.
ok, a lot of cws players trying nerfs here... the historical problem of gwf is: most of powers have 1/3 of the ibs damage and same cooldown. and that same encounters do LESS than 2x a atwill damage (and that atwills can be very fast). to fix that problem, multiplicative mechanicals should stay and that encounters should be buffed until have70/80% of a ibs damage. THEN, instigators and sentinels,through feats, improve that encounters, doing more damage or more interesting effects. the end.
doing that, iam fine to buff everthing for more 40% and cut daggers bonus.
They should remove the buff from hidden daggers and raise the base damage of all GWF powers by 40% as compensation. You will never be able to unslot that power so long as it keeps the 40% buff. Battle Fury is less of an issue. They should also probably halve most of the dps buffs for GWFs and rework them into the base damage of the class. The other feat paths will never be viable unless they either have the same self buffs as destroyer, or the power of destroyer is reduced and the overall base performance of the class is raised.
IF they revamp the GWF skills... i agree that the 40% damage buff of Hidden Daggers should be lessened to 20%... ONLY if they increase base weapon damage by about 10%. (an Exalted weapon would do 3320 damage instead of 3020).
We also need to buff some of the useless encounter skills so that there are more viable alternatives than the 5 encounters skills in use now: Daring Shout, Hidden Daggers, Indominatble Battle Strike, Battle Fury, & Restoring Strike.
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someonediesMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,257Arc User
Swap "Weapon Mastery" with "Armor Specialization" feat And "Fast Runner" with "Ubiquitous Shield"
"Grit" - completely remove it and replace with something useful.
Wondering why aura of courage still procs twice on Weapon Master's Strike sure strike, given that you have reduced the multiproc of aura of courage for TRs and CWs for mod 15, and given that GWFs are fast attackers and will still be able to benefit from it.
They should remove the buff from hidden daggers and raise the base damage of all GWF powers by 40% as compensation. You will never be able to unslot that power so long as it keeps the 40% buff. Battle Fury is less of an issue. They should also probably halve most of the dps buffs for GWFs and rework them into the base damage of the class. The other feat paths will never be viable unless they either have the same self buffs as destroyer, or the power of destroyer is reduced and the overall base performance of the class is raised.
This idea would bring major balance to GWF. The issue is how buffs work, the more buffs you get the bigger damage you can do because of the multiplying factor. Removing buffs and increasing base damage is better way to manage the balancing of classes going forward.
so... no response of devs about gwfs/instigators? what is the point to promisse a "rework" if that tree still not viable? " We wanted Instigator to feel unique from the Destroyer tree while still focusing on granting the Great Weapon Fighter a damage-based tree with some utility. "... how? giving to destroyer a second hybrid choice?
> @werdandi#8366 said: > Wondering why aura of courage still procs twice on Weapon Master's Strike sure strike, given that you have reduced the multiproc of aura of courage for TRs and CWs for mod 15, and given that GWFs are fast attackers and will still be able to benefit from it.
Because GWF is primarily single target and TRs have a lot more AoE powers and well CWs are primarily AoE powers. I don't have a problem with TRs or CWs in PvE just PvP being OP as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
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Gets don't need nerfed just cut the 40% buff from it and add the 40% damage increase to every power. And for the instigator/sentinel just make them generally better overall.
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> @mebengalsfan#9264 said: > They should remove the buff from hidden daggers and raise the base damage of all GWF powers by 40% as compensation. You will never be able to unslot that power so long as it keeps the 40% buff. Battle Fury is less of an issue. They should also probably halve most of the dps buffs for GWFs and rework them into the base damage of the class. The other feat paths will never be viable unless they either have the same self buffs as destroyer, or the power of destroyer is reduced and the overall base performance of the class is raised. > > This idea would bring major balance to GWF. The issue is how buffs work, the more buffs you get the bigger damage you can do because of the multiplying factor. Removing buffs and increasing base damage is better way to manage the balancing of classes going forward.
For sentinel/instigator need to make one a tank spec and the other like a bleed/life steal spec using the few aoe at-wills and few aoe encounters like fissure and charge and not so fast leap slam ect. And make those trees better all around. Leave destroyer the way it is.
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> @mebengalsfan#9264 said: > They should remove the buff from hidden daggers and raise the base damage of all GWF powers by 40% as compensation. You will never be able to unslot that power so long as it keeps the 40% buff. Battle Fury is less of an issue. They should also probably halve most of the dps buffs for GWFs and rework them into the base damage of the class. The other feat paths will never be viable unless they either have the same self buffs as destroyer, or the power of destroyer is reduced and the overall base performance of the class is raised. > > This idea would bring major balance to GWF. The issue is how buffs work, the more buffs you get the bigger damage you can do because of the multiplying factor. Removing buffs and increasing base damage is better way to manage the balancing of classes going forward.
Buffs are a primary and pivotal role(game mechanic)so you can't remove buffs. TBYS.
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Honestly, I dont know how many of the posters calling for HD nerf are 100% GWF players. If you dropped it, would kill the class altogether. Thats the issue. No one skill should be so vital to the class. It also causes us to play with only 2 encounter slots. BORING! I just want more variety. Right now, as GWF... i only use these skills:
Hidden Daggers (always) Daring Shout (always in solo mode. In boss fights with a party i swich it to Restoring Strike) Indomitable Battle Strike (never leaves my bar) - but some swap for Battle fury
Most GWFs prefer the max boost At-Will system. I am focusing on Recovery, bringing it up to about 80 with companion. I use all restoration and critical severity consumables. In boss fights i prefer HD + Restoring Strike + IBS, using Savage Advance Daily for added damage and 20% recharge reduction. I use Lightning Enchant to help with AoE and to further reduce recharge. I am considering adding Armor of Quick Recovery too.. but it will lower my Health by 10,000, so not sure. With the recovery build above, I did over 2 billion damage in a random TONG queue tonight. The next highest DPS was 221 million. We made it with no wipes. I struggled with TONG in the past, but cut it like a hot knife through butter tonight.
first; be strong against a class like cw is not be strong because damage is not your primary function. against rogues, well, devs change your mechanicals every single module. how can be a class balanced comparated to a unstable class? This is not a bad argument, it's pure insanity.
about gwfs be limited: each hit of dagger do, vs 5 targets, 55/60% of a ibs damage. you have 3 stacks (that means, close to 180% of a ibs damage vs 5 targets). no matter if you take away that bonus, every single gwf will still use that. again, the biggest problem of gwf is: most of encounters have 1/3 of a ibs damage. you can oooooover improve that encounters-damages to be on par to ibs, or, like daggers, have 3 stacks, that, causing a total of 180% an ibs damage.
ps: yep... about single target powers... executioner style should affect flourish, restoring strike, takedow, etc AND BE A HEROIC FEAT.
first; be strong against a class like cw is not be strong because damage is not your primary function. against rogues, well, devs change your mechanicals every single module. how can be a class balanced comparated to a unstable class? This is not a bad argument, it's pure insanity.
about gwfs be limited: each hit of dagger do, vs 5 targets, 55/60% of a ibs damage. you have 3 stacks (that means, close to 180% of a ibs damage vs 5 targets). no matter if you take away that bonus, every single gwf will still use that. again, the biggest problem of gwf is: most of encounters have 1/3 of a ibs damage. you can oooooover improve that encounters-damages to be on par to ibs, or, like daggers, have 3 stacks, that, causing a total of 180% an ibs damage.
ps: yep... about single target powers... executioner style should affect flourish, restoring strike, takedow, etc AND BE A HEROIC FEAT.
I'd prefer Focused Destroyer to be a feat any Paragon Path can use. Make that happen and you'll see Instigators no problem. The issue is Crippling strikes and Trample not affecting control immune targets, but whatever.
It would also give more breathing room for the current path and it wouldn't be one path, screw the rest kind of tree.
"We wanted Instigator to feel unique from the Destroyer tree while still focusing on granting the Great Weapon Fighter a damage-based tree with some utility."
that is the thing... focused destroyer for all dont make instigators looks unique (or sentinel)... every gwf will still use sure strike+paragon atwill, 4 encounters (ibs+self buffs) and, for dailys,slam+your single target choice. you have thousand of ways to reproduce that multiplicatives systens, the point is have at least one single reason to use, i dont know, flourish.
look how bad that class is about variety: if you giveme today a free slot to put encounters like not so fast or grand fissure, i will lost damage because is better use my time to spam atwills. IF YOU TURN A DAILY LIKE AVALANCH OF STEEL A ATWILL YOU WILL LOST DPS hahhaa.
"We wanted Instigator to feel unique from the Destroyer tree while still focusing on granting the Great Weapon Fighter a damage-based tree with some utility."
that is the thing... focused destroyer for all dont make instigators looks unique (or sentinel)... every gwf will still use sure strike+paragon atwill, 4 encounters (ibs+self buffs) and, for dailys,slam+your single target choice. you have thousand of ways to reproduce that multiplicatives systens, the point is have at least one single reason to use, i dont know, flourish.
look how bad that class is about variety: if you giveme today a free slot to put encounters like not so fast or grand fissure, i will lost damage because is better use my time to spam atwills. IF YOU TURN A DAILY LIKE AVALANCH OF STEEL A ATWILL YOU WILL LOST DPS hahhaa.
Yeah... where is the flourish in the "flourish" skill anyway?
We dont use it because of the long animation. To make the skill make sense to its own name and be worth using, without just adding damage (we dont need an IBS clone).... its damage could produce double AP & determination gain, plus reduce active cooldowns by .5 seconds.
...To me, for synergy reasons (steel blitz) and aesthetic, flourish should do 60/70% of your main damage today and don’t stun, but hit enemies close to the primary target (front you or surrounded).
If don’t have other enemies arround that primary target, the same damage as today. Then "stunning flourish" give the capacity to stun and cause more damage against that primary target (instead of that critical chance that dont make sense for us).
That looks a perfect alternative of ibs to me and turn a class feature/atwill/encounter a perfect chain of functions+ aesthetic.
ps:60/70% of a flourish today=one single dagger hit. of course, being a melee power you have more damage potencial, but is not soooooo strong, just different.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Just realized, Instigator can't compete with Destroyer's purpose. It's impossible to compete with perma determination.
> Wondering why aura of courage still procs twice on Weapon Master's Strike sure strike, given that you have reduced the multiproc of aura of courage for TRs and CWs for mod 15, and given that GWFs are fast attackers and will still be able to benefit from it.
Because GWF is primarily single target and TRs have a lot more AoE powers and well CWs are primarily AoE powers. I don't have a problem with TRs or CWs in PvE just PvP being OP as HAMSTER.
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PVP vs PVE is a separate topic all together. The OP AoC multi proc was fixed for other classes but not GWF. That should be resolved, not because of PVP but because AoC should not be able to multi proc period. It is about bringing balance to all classes.
Mod 15 didn't fix anything and simply is a waste of time IMO if you play this game. I think I will finish up the GF build I'm working on and take an extended break until mod 16 lands.
in fact, Gwf are primary Aoe... ignoring paragon, you have only 2 powers exclusive single target: takedown and restoring strike. no class have more AOE powers in this game than gwfs (functional is another history).
ps:ibs and the last sure strike attack are multi targets too.. not sure the cap.
@spidey#3367 That's a Guardian Fighter. Not a Great Weapon Fighter. Please do some slight research before complaining.
Most people complaining use a different class. I've seen high-end TR's, HR's, and even CW's do great DPS with Mod 14 builds. (SWs do need help in the DPS department) I do not agree with certain Mod 15 changes to these classes as they are mostly nerfs, but the DPS potential was already there. GWFs are the most mainstream class and have the most info being shared amongst each other, meaning that even low-end GWFs are using end-game builds. And yes, it would be great to see variety but taking away from one power and placing it into another just tears the class apart instead of having 2 viable options.
Another thing is, the GWF has almost no exclusive party buffs/debuffs besides Battle Fury which is a sub-par buff for the group. TR and HR fall into that category. Meaning these 3 classes should make up for the lack of party synergy with DPS. If you as an HR or TR cannot keep up with a GWF it just means you are not using your class to it's full potential. (based on Mod 14 builds).
@ruslan1404#8974 The nerf to AoC was it multi proccing with Damage Over Time(DoTs). GWF's have almost NO DoT's besides a Feat called "Deep Gash". So if you think that's special then so be it.
Basically, this "nerf" is the same fix they performed with the Lightning enchantment.
Comments
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Flourish - Have damage from this skill give double AP gain.
Reaping Strike - Have this skill absorb 10% of its damage as health gain, & give +10% deflection severity while charging.
Grand Fissure - Have this skill give +2% damage buff and encounter skill recharge reduction per enemy hit (8 seconds).
Punishing Charge - Charged enemies also interrupted and are disorganized for 6 seconds, reducing damage by 10%.
doing that, iam fine to buff everthing for more 40% and cut daggers bonus.
We also need to buff some of the useless encounter skills so that there are more viable alternatives than the 5 encounters skills in use now: Daring Shout, Hidden Daggers, Indominatble Battle Strike, Battle Fury, & Restoring Strike.
And "Fast Runner" with "Ubiquitous Shield"
"Grit" - completely remove it and replace with something useful.
Dead🔪sure strike, given that you have reduced the multiproc of aura of courage for TRs and CWs for mod 15, and given that GWFs are fast attackers and will still be able to benefit from it." We wanted Instigator to feel unique from the Destroyer tree while still focusing on granting the Great Weapon Fighter a damage-based tree with some utility. "... how? giving to destroyer a second hybrid choice?
> Wondering why aura of courage still procs twice on Weapon Master's Strike sure strike, given that you have reduced the multiproc of aura of courage for TRs and CWs for mod 15, and given that GWFs are fast attackers and will still be able to benefit from it.
Because GWF is primarily single target and TRs have a lot more AoE powers and well CWs are primarily AoE powers. I don't have a problem with TRs or CWs in PvE just PvP being OP as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
<font color="orange">Moderator edited sentence case for no SHOUTY CAPS.</font>
<font color="orange">Moderator edited sentence case for no SHOUTY CAPS.</font>
> They should remove the buff from hidden daggers and raise the base damage of all GWF powers by 40% as compensation. You will never be able to unslot that power so long as it keeps the 40% buff. Battle Fury is less of an issue. They should also probably halve most of the dps buffs for GWFs and rework them into the base damage of the class. The other feat paths will never be viable unless they either have the same self buffs as destroyer, or the power of destroyer is reduced and the overall base performance of the class is raised.
>
> This idea would bring major balance to GWF. The issue is how buffs work, the more buffs you get the bigger damage you can do because of the multiplying factor. Removing buffs and increasing base damage is better way to manage the balancing of classes going forward.
For sentinel/instigator need to make one a tank spec and the other like a bleed/life steal spec using the few aoe at-wills and few aoe encounters like fissure and charge and not so fast leap slam ect. And make those trees better all around. Leave destroyer the way it is.
<font color="orange">Moderator edited sentence case for no SHOUTY CAPS.</font>
> They should remove the buff from hidden daggers and raise the base damage of all GWF powers by 40% as compensation. You will never be able to unslot that power so long as it keeps the 40% buff. Battle Fury is less of an issue. They should also probably halve most of the dps buffs for GWFs and rework them into the base damage of the class. The other feat paths will never be viable unless they either have the same self buffs as destroyer, or the power of destroyer is reduced and the overall base performance of the class is raised.
>
> This idea would bring major balance to GWF. The issue is how buffs work, the more buffs you get the bigger damage you can do because of the multiplying factor. Removing buffs and increasing base damage is better way to manage the balancing of classes going forward.
Buffs are a primary and pivotal role(game mechanic)so you can't remove buffs. TBYS.
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Hidden Daggers (always)
Daring Shout (always in solo mode. In boss fights with a party i swich it to Restoring Strike)
Indomitable Battle Strike (never leaves my bar) - but some swap for Battle fury
Most GWFs prefer the max boost At-Will system. I am focusing on Recovery, bringing it up to about 80 with companion. I use all restoration and critical severity consumables. In boss fights i prefer HD + Restoring Strike + IBS, using Savage Advance Daily for added damage and 20% recharge reduction. I use Lightning Enchant to help with AoE and to further reduce recharge. I am considering adding Armor of Quick Recovery too.. but it will lower my Health by 10,000, so not sure. With the recovery build above, I did over 2 billion damage in a random TONG queue tonight. The next highest DPS was 221 million. We made it with no wipes. I struggled with TONG in the past, but cut it like a hot knife through butter tonight.
why gwf is so strong and why is so limited.
first; be strong against a class like cw is not be strong because damage is not your primary function. against rogues, well, devs change your mechanicals every single module. how can be a class balanced comparated to a unstable class? This is not a bad argument, it's pure insanity.
about gwfs be limited: each hit of dagger do, vs 5 targets, 55/60% of a ibs damage. you have 3 stacks (that means, close to 180% of a ibs damage vs 5 targets). no matter if you take away that bonus, every single gwf will still use that. again, the biggest problem of gwf is: most of encounters have 1/3 of a ibs damage. you can oooooover improve that encounters-damages to be on par to ibs, or, like daggers, have 3 stacks, that, causing a total of 180% an ibs damage.
ps: yep... about single target powers... executioner style should affect flourish, restoring strike, takedow, etc AND BE A HEROIC FEAT.
It would also give more breathing room for the current path and it wouldn't be one path, screw the rest kind of tree.
that is the thing... focused destroyer for all dont make instigators looks unique (or sentinel)... every gwf will still use sure strike+paragon atwill, 4 encounters (ibs+self buffs) and, for dailys,slam+your single target choice. you have thousand of ways to reproduce that multiplicatives systens, the point is have at least one single reason to use, i dont know, flourish.
look how bad that class is about variety: if you giveme today a free slot to put encounters like not so fast or grand fissure, i will lost damage because is better use my time to spam atwills. IF YOU TURN A DAILY LIKE AVALANCH OF STEEL A ATWILL YOU WILL LOST DPS hahhaa.
We dont use it because of the long animation. To make the skill make sense to its own name and be worth using, without just adding damage (we dont need an IBS clone).... its damage could produce double AP & determination gain, plus reduce active cooldowns by .5 seconds.
If don’t have other enemies arround that primary target, the same damage as today. Then "stunning flourish" give the capacity to stun and cause more damage against that primary target (instead of that critical chance that dont make sense for us).
That looks a perfect alternative of ibs to me and turn a class feature/atwill/encounter a perfect chain of functions+ aesthetic.
ps:60/70% of a flourish today=one single dagger hit. of course, being a melee power you have more damage potencial, but is not soooooo strong, just different.
Proofed!
Mod 15 didn't fix anything and simply is a waste of time IMO if you play this game. I think I will finish up the GF build I'm working on and take an extended break until mod 16 lands.
ps:ibs and the last sure strike attack are multi targets too.. not sure the cap.
Most people complaining use a different class.
I've seen high-end TR's, HR's, and even CW's do great DPS with Mod 14 builds. (SWs do need help in the DPS department)
I do not agree with certain Mod 15 changes to these classes as they are mostly nerfs, but the DPS potential was already there.
GWFs are the most mainstream class and have the most info being shared amongst each other,
meaning that even low-end GWFs are using end-game builds.
And yes, it would be great to see variety but taking away from one power and placing it into another just tears the class apart instead of having 2 viable options.
Another thing is, the GWF has almost no exclusive party buffs/debuffs besides Battle Fury which is a sub-par buff for the group.
TR and HR fall into that category. Meaning these 3 classes should make up for the lack of party synergy with DPS.
If you as an HR or TR cannot keep up with a GWF it just means you are not using your class to it's full potential. (based on Mod 14 builds).
Basically, this "nerf" is the same fix they performed with the Lightning enchantment.
Take that attitude somewhere else lol