M15: Great Weapon Fighter Class Changes

135

Comments

  • c3rb3r3
    c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    edited September 2018


    I don't know why the devs so are so intelligent and balanced/non-biased with handling the GWF, at least compared to other classes.

    I've read many dumb things in this thread but this one is the cherry on the cake

    If you consider ignoring a class for 10 mods straight or even since the release as the only changes made were useless a good handling of the class then it's a lulz for me.

    Let's face it devs got lucky balancing destroyer to a state where it had sufficient dps for a very limited path to ignore everything else including many bugs in that same viable path

    w/e, and please don't talk about other classes in this thread
  • jayjay#5355
    jayjay#5355 Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    More bugs

    Battle Trample doesnt scale with buffs, same as other similar proccs such as Steel Blitz or flanking manuver that are based on Weapon Damage, Battle trample should inherit the buffs, even thou it should be scaled down to 12.5% instead of 25%.
  • jayjay#5355
    jayjay#5355 Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    More bugs,


    Crippling strike, apparently your slow doesn't apply on the immune to CC targets, similar to Trample the Fallen, this looks like a counter productive change, i would consider these 2 powers as bugs, we are supposed to have increased damage against immune to CC targets, even if they aren't controlled.


    Warrior's Rush is mentioning that is increasing MOVEMENT SPEED, while the buff in the bar says it's Run speed, in the tooltips for Fleet Footed and Unfettered Strike their tooltips are saying RUN SPEED, therefor Nimble Runner is supposed to be what exactly? Movement Speed (Movement Stat) or Run Speed? does increasing the Movement stat will also increase the Run Speed?
    How is Nimble Runner or Warrior's Rush supposed to work and the right tooltip?


    Survivor's Wraps aren't building Instigator Vengence stacks, it should work as it does for the Guardiang fighter's Conquerer's Capstone Reckless Attacker, or other similar feats in which you take 1x hit, you build 1x stack : ex Countless Scars. The synergy between the Wraps and the Capstone should be there.(edited)
  • mongoosemobster
    mongoosemobster Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    c3rb3r3 said:


    I don't know why the devs so are so intelligent and balanced/non-biased with handling the GWF, at least compared to other classes.

    I've read many dumb things in this thread but this one is the cherry on the cake

    If you consider ignoring a class for 10 mods straight or even since the release as the only changes made were useless a good handling of the class then it's a lulz for me.

    Let's face it devs got lucky balancing destroyer to a state where it had sufficient dps for a very limited path to ignore everything else including many bugs in that same viable path

    w/e, and please don't talk about other classes in this thread
    I've read over a decade of completely whiny posts just like this on any MMO's official message board. And it's always absolutes ("Only Sith believe in absolutes!"), quite ignorant of the fact that no class is any louder at complaining than another. Basically, people who threaten to quit but always end up staying and paying while complaining. If the devs do good only out of luck, then you're literally gambling your playing time based on how the devs' dice rolls go.

    Now, I shall repeat: What I like about these changes is that they are done with understanding (mostly) of GWF playstyle and mechanics, thus choosing the "right" things to change. However it seems to me that not every class is similarly understood, and I'm just saying it would be juuust a little nice to balance with respect to understanding and not just number crunching. If anything, I'm telling the devs to learn from what they ("luckily") managed to do right here.

    Before you laugh or say something about, "It's the GWF's time to shine!": Realize that if only a few classes are done well, others are nerfed, then they will balance by nerfing the well-balanced to the level of the unbalanced. This is the M.O. of every MMO developer, especially post City-of-Heroes Cryptic.

    I love complaining. However, HAMSTER me because complaining randomly is stupid as HAMSTER and a waste of energy and time that could have been strategically written, timed, and thus productive.

    If anything, I'm being the HAMSTER for treating Cryptic like a dog, giving praise and a treat just for doing something right for the first time in years! Conditioning has to start somewhere, I guess.
  • betepok#5883
    betepok#5883 Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    The sentinel tree is useless at all. Only one feat for marks need us that's all. It's a dead tree. Instead of reworking sentinel they reworked instigator. Sentinel tree need to be reworked completely.
  • schietindebux
    schietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    The changes that needed to be done are a bit more tonedown of buffs to get to a healthier setup of groups in general, it's a pretty difficult balance act from which the nerf of DC was a logical step in the right direction, despite some player can´t understand those changes in absence of a deaper understanding of classbalance in genaeral.
    Powershare or AoC or dps multiplier, pretty sure they won't stay for long like now.

    All this opens a window for striker, or buffer/dps. A good Hellbringer dps with Pop 18%buff and debuffs 15% allready is a good choice on top of another dps, comparable to a Conqueror GF, wich is even better in dps/shared buffs, Hunter can run a similar setup.
    Buffs still are a bit too dominant I'd say.
    The needed changes are not tied to one class like GWF in my eyes, but as said the class needs fresh air. I stopped playing it in mod 7 or 8 since it was too "one-dimensional"
    When the class get's a viable dps/buff setup in the end of process it will be a good solution since not all GWF are hdps at all, the number is pretty small on PC these days.
    A dps/buff setup would be nice, from wich Wicked Strike could be feated into a group-shared 3x9% debuff, tier 5 "Group Assault" etc., anything like that.
    Sentinel needs a compareable buff like GF can share (ITF 35%, debuff 18%) to be from any interest, if you really intend to build your GWF as a tank.
    Otherwise it´s pointless to even think about it, since the dps from a Sentinel GWF is lower compared to a conqueror-GF in general. Still missing AP gain and Speedbuffs same as temp HP, the gap is pretty huge atm.
    Battle fury needed a rework and a tier 4/5 feat in Sentinel tree to be buffed on top. Or better Daring shout could be a t4/5 feat as a group shared buff in Sentinel and Battle fury in Intimidation tree.
    I know "band aid fixes", but that´s what we get in general. No huge overhaul of a class, pretty risky to ask for it anyway.

    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • gromovnipljesak#8234
    gromovnipljesak#8234 Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User

    The changes that needed to be done are a bit more tonedown of buffs to get to a healthier setup of groups in general, it's a pretty difficult balance act from which the nerf of DC was a logical step in the right direction, despite some player can´t understand those changes in absence of a deaper understanding of classbalance in genaeral.
    Powershare or AoC or dps multiplier, pretty sure they won't stay for long like now.

    All this opens a window for striker, or buffer/dps. A good Hellbringer dps with Pop 18%buff and debuffs 15% allready is a good choice on top of another dps, comparable to a Conqueror GF, wich is even better in dps/shared buffs, Hunter can run a similar setup.
    Buffs still are a bit too dominant I'd say.
    The needed changes are not tied to one class like GWF in my eyes, but as said the class needs fresh air. I stopped playing it in mod 7 or 8 since it was too "one-dimensional"
    When the class get's a viable dps/buff setup in the end of process it will be a good solution since not all GWF are hdps at all, the number is pretty small on PC these days.
    A dps/buff setup would be nice, from wich Wicked Strike could be feated into a group-shared 3x9% debuff, tier 5 "Group Assault" etc., anything like that.
    Sentinel needs a compareable buff like GF can share (ITF 35%, debuff 18%) to be from any interest, if you really intend to build your GWF as a tank.
    Otherwise it´s pointless to even think about it, since the dps from a Sentinel GWF is lower compared to a conqueror-GF in general. Still missing AP gain and Speedbuffs same as temp HP, the gap is pretty huge atm.
    Battle fury needed a rework and a tier 4/5 feat in Sentinel tree to be buffed on top. Or better Daring shout could be a t4/5 feat as a group shared buff in Sentinel and Battle fury in Intimidation tree.
    I know "band aid fixes", but that´s what we get in general. No huge overhaul of a class, pretty risky to ask for it anyway.

    What my idea for Sentinel buffs are - make the capstone flip the buffs. So daggers, instead of giving you 40% DPS, they give your party 40%, or some other value (eg, buffs at 50% efficiency or 75% or something). However, you'd still need to compete with what OP does to be actually desired in a group.
  • rafamarques#5700
    rafamarques#5700 Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    for sentinels... share powerfull challange and, by intimidation, daring shout (defensive)/come and get it bonus (that need be buffed to+50% of damage for the next 5 secs) is a great start. you can also create a exclusive mark property for sentinels by capstone that give for the attackers some ap bonus+temporary hp (like a astral seal).

    ps: in fact, thinking here, sentinel shoud be the defensive extreme of a dps class to the same way that instigators will be the fast extreme of a dps class. gwfs have that 3 extremes. damage/speed/defense.

    change sentinel aegis to instigator vengance and bring back the same intimidation designe (but less strong) that sentinels have during m4 and sentinel is ready. for instigators, turn Nimble Runner a capstone and up to 100 (40%+speed bonus), improve Warrior’s Rush, and instigators are ready to the next module. at least, is a great start
    Post edited by rafamarques#5700 on
  • chestercatrat#6924
    chestercatrat#6924 Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    Want to see divergence in paragon paths? A. fix the feats so they actually do what they're supposed to do (I know it's in progress) B. give us another 15 to 20 points to spend. You'll see some crazy builds start to take shape across all classes. Will it mess with your balancing? Yes. Currently you have given us too many options but only 1 real way that works and that's for all the classes. Only way to fix that is to gut the paragon paths and start fresh or give everyone more points to diverge with.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234
    gromovnipljesak#8234 Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User

    Want to see divergence in paragon paths? A. fix the feats so they actually do what they're supposed to do (I know it's in progress) B. give us another 15 to 20 points to spend. You'll see some crazy builds start to take shape across all classes. Will it mess with your balancing? Yes. Currently you have given us too many options but only 1 real way that works and that's for all the classes. Only way to fix that is to gut the paragon paths and start fresh or give everyone more points to diverge with.

    Another 15 to 20 points would be overpowered for some classes though.
    I will keep banging on about this, I WANT LEVEL 80 FFS.
  • schietindebux
    schietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User

    The changes that needed to be done are a bit more tonedown of buffs to get to a healthier setup of groups in general, it's a pretty difficult balance act from which the nerf of DC was a logical step in the right direction, despite some player can´t understand those changes in absence of a deaper understanding of classbalance in genaeral.
    Powershare or AoC or dps multiplier, pretty sure they won't stay for long like now.

    All this opens a window for striker, or buffer/dps. A good Hellbringer dps with Pop 18%buff and debuffs 15% allready is a good choice on top of another dps, comparable to a Conqueror GF, wich is even better in dps/shared buffs, Hunter can run a similar setup.
    Buffs still are a bit too dominant I'd say.
    The needed changes are not tied to one class like GWF in my eyes, but as said the class needs fresh air. I stopped playing it in mod 7 or 8 since it was too "one-dimensional"
    When the class get's a viable dps/buff setup in the end of process it will be a good solution since not all GWF are hdps at all, the number is pretty small on PC these days.
    A dps/buff setup would be nice, from wich Wicked Strike could be feated into a group-shared 3x9% debuff, tier 5 "Group Assault" etc., anything like that.
    Sentinel needs a compareable buff like GF can share (ITF 35%, debuff 18%) to be from any interest, if you really intend to build your GWF as a tank.
    Otherwise it´s pointless to even think about it, since the dps from a Sentinel GWF is lower compared to a conqueror-GF in general. Still missing AP gain and Speedbuffs same as temp HP, the gap is pretty huge atm.
    Battle fury needed a rework and a tier 4/5 feat in Sentinel tree to be buffed on top. Or better Daring shout could be a t4/5 feat as a group shared buff in Sentinel and Battle fury in Intimidation tree.
    I know "band aid fixes", but that´s what we get in general. No huge overhaul of a class, pretty risky to ask for it anyway.

    What my idea for Sentinel buffs are - make the capstone flip the buffs. So daggers, instead of giving you 40% DPS, they give your party 40%, or some other value (eg, buffs at 50% efficiency or 75% or something). However, you'd still need to compete with what OP does to be actually desired in a group.
    At least you can be the alternative for actual meta: tank/GF - devo OP - DC - 2. rate buffer - hdps or 3. rate buffer, in case that GF is a hdps.
    GF same as GWF don´t need to be on par with OP, that would kill balance again for ages I think.
    GF and sent.GWF could be similar in a buff/tank role, that would be sufficient imo.
    If ever devs decide to balance tanks, they should downgrade OP significant, that´s my opinion. AoC needs a downgrade, powershare is far enough on top of better debuff options both other tanks got.
  • rafamarques#5700
    rafamarques#5700 Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    "Another 15 to 20 points would be overpowered for some classes though.
    I will keep banging on about this, I WANT LEVEL 80 FFS."

    can be more easy than that. unify trees; for example, if you spend x points in a "t1 destroyer", you can choose a t2 in sentinel tree and a t3 in intigators tree. in the end, you just choose 1-3 capstone. that is my dream; hahhah
  • ltsmithneko
    ltsmithneko Member Posts: 1,578 Arc User
    @noworries#8859 @scarabman @NITOCRIS83

    (A request by a gwf, community member that’s taking a break, all I did was the HTML n’ Proof read)
    


    I would like to start with giving the proper thanks to @balanced#2849, for the years of service, and for the current changes done to the Great Weapon Fighter, and to many others, to wish him well with his plans...

    
So as I don’t know who is now balancing the classes, I tagged the only 2 developers I’ve currently seen posting actively on the forum. Also another reason I’m making this post is because of this response from Noworries in the recent AMA on reddit.
https://i.imgur.com/eeiV5ta.jpg

I fully agree with making paragons and paths viable, but I’m not sure it will happen on how i wish it would, that is why I’m going to make some suggestions on how to make ALL Paragons viable and Paths for Great Weapon Fighter, before it is too late, hopefully my suggestions might influence the future plans with the class. A class that I played since beta and I’ve gone through few metas with it.
Firstly let’s talk about viability, I want to explain how I see it. Viability doesn’t need to make you best DPS, best Support or FOTM, I see it only as a build(feats, powers and rotations) that helps you play your role succesfully. So let me take each Paragon and Path and talk a bit about them.


    
1.Destroyer
    
1.1 Sword Master Destroyer
    With the current bug fix on Steel Blitz, I can only see this Build as a AoE build, the current rotation, powers and feats(in Destroyer tree) used in this build shouldn’t be changed at all, they shouldn’t be touched to make other choices more appealing, with this class the only changes should be done to other paragons and paths.
Weapon Master Strike its a SM at-will that is the main AoE dmg dealer, with the recent change to Steel Blitz this combo will have a really good synergy, making this Build one of the best AoE builds out there.

    
1.2 Iron Vanguard Destroyer
    
Compared to SM, Iron Vanguard isn’t a PvE Viable build and there are few reasons why.
The current Trample the Fallen doesn’t work against Immune to CC targets, and the current Battle Trample doesn’t scale with buffs, so fixing these 2 bugs, will make Iron Vanguard a viable build, the change from a SM to IV will make IV a really good Single Target dmg dealer, And if Battle Trample from Sentinel tree is swapped with Improved Reaction from Destroyer tree, only the Iron Vanguard version of tiers, will make this build even more useful.
What is going to make this Build Viable would be swaping to this set of powers.

Weapon master strike (AoE) for Threating Rush (Single Target at-will)
Steel Blitz (a really good AoE dmg dealer) for (Trample the Fallen a really good single target increase)
Crescendo (not really your damage dealing ability) for (Indomitable Strength a really good Single Target DMG Daily.) 
Staying Power for Battle Trample.
With these 4 changes the Destroyer will have 2 Loadouts and 2 viable builds that one will perform AoE, and the other Single Target.

    2. Sentinel
    
I can see Sentinel as a TANK, but it needs a total revamp, which hopefully it will get in module 16, and i have the perfect idea on how it can be done. To be a TANK you need 5 things

    • 1. Threat Generation 
*currently the ones in the Sentinel Paragon do not work

    • 2. Temporary hitpoints 
Sentinel Aegis should increase the Temporary Hitpoints of Unstoppable by atleast 100-150% of maximum Hitpoints., instead of Restoring Strike bonus. 

    • 3. Block/Shield
 *Reaping Strike, its one of the most useless powers in the game, alot of us wish for this at-will to be changed with a Parrying at-will, an at-will that works as a Block which mitigates the incoming damage.

    • 4. A Party Wide Buff
 Powerful Challenge should be changed with Grudge Style, and Powerful Challenge should be changed to a GROUP BUFF, Allies should have increased damage when you Mark a target.

    • 5. Playing Sentinel (Capstone) the queues should consider you as a TANK.

    
1.1 Sword Master Sentinel
    With the above suggestions to Sentinel, to create a Tank mechanic, i think a SM Sentinel can work like a TANK with mediocre DPS. the Rotation for Sentinel Sword Master would be 
Encounters: Daring Shout, Come and Get it(intimdiation feat) , Battle Fury
 at-wills : Weapon Master Strike(or Wicked Strike) and Parrying atwill.
Dailies: Crescendo/Slam/Avalanche/Spinning strike
Class feature: Steel blitz and Weapon Master/Steel Defense
(* Wrathful Determination works with Melee powers, and Destroyer class feat its good only for Destroyer)
The Main source of Damage would be Intimidation, and if it’s possible to be raised up to atleast 200%-250% of weapon damage.

    
1.2 Iron Vanguard Sentinel
    
This would be played like a Tank, but with less dmg focused, but focused more on support than Sword Master Sentinel, That is why a change to Enduring Warrior class feat should be done to increase the allies damage by 15% when you lifesteal, ONLY the allies damage, and not yours, so you would provide a buff, togheter with Battle Fury +  Powerfull challenge + 15% Enduring warrior (6.25% + 15% + 15% ) it would make this build VIABLE.


    
3. Instigator
    
I love alot the current changes done to instigator, unfortunately there are some bugs with these changes, when they get fixed I can see some viability with it. Currently on the things that we can work are the bugs, but some future changes done to this Paragon it should be done to powers that should be used in this Paragon, Powers like Not So Fast, Grand fissure, Restoring Strike, Flourish/Frontline surge 
Warriors Rush and Allied Opportunity should cover the above mentioned powers. And these Powers should be individually buffed.
Wrathful Determination could be used as one of the class feats, Bravery as well, Weapon Master Strike, Steadfast Determination if it could be improved, another viable solution.


    
#1.
Nimble Runner: just slotted seems to increase the damage by 8.29% , and not 8.25% 
seems like with 4 stacks of unfettered strike ( 25% movement speed) the dmg is increased by 9.84%
25% movement speed(unfettered strike) + 15% movement speed (Fleet floated) the damage increase by 11.26%
3.5% ( Darks in utility slots) + 25% movement speed (unfettered strike) + 15% movement speed (fleet floated) the damage increased by 11.5%
3.5%(darks in utility slots) + 25% movement speed (unfettered strike) + 15% movement speed (fleet floated) + Bravery rank 4 (17.5% movement speed) the damage is increased by 13.08%

So basically adding 61% Movement Speed the Damage increased by 4.79% from 13.08%(with 61%) - 8.29%(just feat slotted).
* You guys should make it work 40% movement speed = 40% DMG increase.
    


#2.
Flanking maneuver AND Steel Blitz seems not to scale with Weapon master strike DR debuff, and doesnt benefit over Stayin Power either. Apparently Weapon Damage based encahants seem not to benefit from this either.



    #3.
Crippling strike, apparently your slow doesn't apply on the immune to CC targets, similar to Trample the Fallen, this looks like a counter productive change, i would consider these 2 powers as bugs, we are supposed to have increased damage against immune to CC targets, even if they are immune to the effect of it, these Powers should work if a Control Power is being casted on the enemy.


    #4.
Warrior's Rush is mentioning that is increasing MOVEMENT SPEED, while the buff in the bar says it's Run speed, in the tooltips for Fleet Footed and Unfettered Strike their tooltips are saying RUN SPEED, therefor Nimble Runner is supposed to be what exactly? Movement Speed (Movement Stat) or Run Speed? does increasing the Movement stat will also increase the Run Speed? 
How is Nimble Runner or Warrior's Rush supposed to work and the right tooltip?
    

#5.
Battle Trample doesn’t scale with buffs, same as other similar proccs such as Steel Blitz or flanking manuver that are based on Weapon Damage, Battle trample should inherit the buffs, even thou it should be decreased to 12.5% instead of 25%.

#6.
Survivor's Wraps aren't building Instigator Vengence stacks, it should work as it does for the Guardiang fighter's Conquerer's Capstone Reckless Attacker, or other similar feats in which you take 1x hit, you build 1x stack : ex Countless Scars. The synergy between the Wraps and the Capstone should be there.
    

1.1 Sword Master Instigator
    I can see this being played alot in PVP, with a Parrying at-will instead of Weapon master strike, this build will be played like a Conquerer Guardian Fighter, In PvE it might not synergize that well with the Capstone, i dont think it will beat the Destroyer, but thats not really the point, I belive it can perform great  in PVP, so it’s still a viable build, sure Destroyer will still remain good in PVP, but I guess players will choose their style which fits the best, but it matters that it’s viable and not useless how it used to be in the past.

    1.2 Iron Vanguard Instigator
    Would be a very strong Single Target PVP build, thats what I can say , not necessarly the best, but a viable choice, PvP Destroyer or Sentinel builds might be a thing too.
  • ltsmithneko
    ltsmithneko Member Posts: 1,578 Arc User
    Conclusion: I Hope that you guys take your time to read, and re-read these suggestions, I do not think they are that hard to implement, but these suggestion will lead to at least 6 Viable Loadouts with different rotations, powers and feats being used, and I can see different Weapon Enchants being used too, not to mention Gear too, for example for Sentinel, i could see the Hag Rags , and Eyestalk Wraappers being used in synergy with Intimidation feat, also U. Dread Enchantment.


    So whoever picks up on doing Great Weapon Fighter, please listen to my suggestions and do it right, as a thing for finale I’ll leave you this.
    

https://i.imgur.com/IF3arMy.png
  • heraldfayez#8520
    heraldfayez#8520 Member Posts: 227 Arc User

    @noworries#8859 @scarabman @NITOCRIS83

    (A request by a gwf, community member that’s taking a break, all I did was the HTML n’ Proof read)
    



    I would like to start with giving the proper thanks to @balanced#2849, for the years of service, and for the current changes done to the Great Weapon Fighter, and to many others, to wish him well with his plans...

    
So as I don’t know who is now balancing the classes, I tagged the only 2 developers I’ve currently seen posting actively on the forum. Also another reason I’m making this post is because of this response from Noworries in the recent AMA on reddit.
https://i.imgur.com/eeiV5ta.jpg

I fully agree with making paragons and paths viable, but I’m not sure it will happen on how i wish it would, that is why I’m going to make some suggestions on how to make ALL Paragons viable and Paths for Great Weapon Fighter, before it is too late, hopefully my suggestions might influence the future plans with the class. A class that I played since beta and I’ve gone through few metas with it.
Firstly let’s talk about viability, I want to explain how I see it. Viability doesn’t need to make you best DPS, best Support or FOTM, I see it only as a build(feats, powers and rotations) that helps you play your role succesfully. So let me take each Paragon and Path and talk a bit about them.


    
1.Destroyer
    
1.1 Sword Master Destroyer
    With the current bug fix on Steel Blitz, I can only see this Build as a AoE build, the current rotation, powers and feats(in Destroyer tree) used in this build shouldn’t be changed at all, they shouldn’t be touched to make other choices more appealing, with this class the only changes should be done to other paragons and paths.
Weapon Master Strike its a SM at-will that is the main AoE dmg dealer, with the recent change to Steel Blitz this combo will have a really good synergy, making this Build one of the best AoE builds out there.

    
1.2 Iron Vanguard Destroyer
    
Compared to SM, Iron Vanguard isn’t a PvE Viable build and there are few reasons why.
The current Trample the Fallen doesn’t work against Immune to CC targets, and the current Battle Trample doesn’t scale with buffs, so fixing these 2 bugs, will make Iron Vanguard a viable build, the change from a SM to IV will make IV a really good Single Target dmg dealer, And if Battle Trample from Sentinel tree is swapped with Improved Reaction from Destroyer tree, only the Iron Vanguard version of tiers, will make this build even more useful.
What is going to make this Build Viable would be swaping to this set of powers.

Weapon master strike (AoE) for Threating Rush (Single Target at-will)
Steel Blitz (a really good AoE dmg dealer) for (Trample the Fallen a really good single target increase)
Crescendo (not really your damage dealing ability) for (Indomitable Strength a really good Single Target DMG Daily.) 
Staying Power for Battle Trample.
With these 4 changes the Destroyer will have 2 Loadouts and 2 viable builds that one will perform AoE, and the other Single Target.

    2. Sentinel
    
I can see Sentinel as a TANK, but it needs a total revamp, which hopefully it will get in module 16, and i have the perfect idea on how it can be done. To be a TANK you need 5 things

    • 1. Threat Generation 
*currently the ones in the Sentinel Paragon do not work

    • 2. Temporary hitpoints 
Sentinel Aegis should increase the Temporary Hitpoints of Unstoppable by atleast 100-150% of maximum Hitpoints., instead of Restoring Strike bonus. 

    • 3. Block/Shield
 *Reaping Strike, its one of the most useless powers in the game, alot of us wish for this at-will to be changed with a Parrying at-will, an at-will that works as a Block which mitigates the incoming damage.

    • 4. A Party Wide Buff
 Powerful Challenge should be changed with Grudge Style, and Powerful Challenge should be changed to a GROUP BUFF, Allies should have increased damage when you Mark a target.

    • 5. Playing Sentinel (Capstone) the queues should consider you as a TANK.

    
1.1 Sword Master Sentinel
    With the above suggestions to Sentinel, to create a Tank mechanic, i think a SM Sentinel can work like a TANK with mediocre DPS. the Rotation for Sentinel Sword Master would be 
Encounters: Daring Shout, Come and Get it(intimdiation feat) , Battle Fury
 at-wills : Weapon Master Strike(or Wicked Strike) and Parrying atwill.
Dailies: Crescendo/Slam/Avalanche/Spinning strike
Class feature: Steel blitz and Weapon Master/Steel Defense
(* Wrathful Determination works with Melee powers, and Destroyer class feat its good only for Destroyer)
The Main source of Damage would be Intimidation, and if it’s possible to be raised up to atleast 200%-250% of weapon damage.

    
1.2 Iron Vanguard Sentinel
    
This would be played like a Tank, but with less dmg focused, but focused more on support than Sword Master Sentinel, That is why a change to Enduring Warrior class feat should be done to increase the allies damage by 15% when you lifesteal, ONLY the allies damage, and not yours, so you would provide a buff, togheter with Battle Fury +  Powerfull challenge + 15% Enduring warrior (6.25% + 15% + 15% ) it would make this build VIABLE.


    
3. Instigator
    
I love alot the current changes done to instigator, unfortunately there are some bugs with these changes, when they get fixed I can see some viability with it. Currently on the things that we can work are the bugs, but some future changes done to this Paragon it should be done to powers that should be used in this Paragon, Powers like Not So Fast, Grand fissure, Restoring Strike, Flourish/Frontline surge 
Warriors Rush and Allied Opportunity should cover the above mentioned powers. And these Powers should be individually buffed.
Wrathful Determination could be used as one of the class feats, Bravery as well, Weapon Master Strike, Steadfast Determination if it could be improved, another viable solution.


    
#1.
Nimble Runner: just slotted seems to increase the damage by 8.29% , and not 8.25% 
seems like with 4 stacks of unfettered strike ( 25% movement speed) the dmg is increased by 9.84%
25% movement speed(unfettered strike) + 15% movement speed (Fleet floated) the damage increase by 11.26%
3.5% ( Darks in utility slots) + 25% movement speed (unfettered strike) + 15% movement speed (fleet floated) the damage increased by 11.5%
3.5%(darks in utility slots) + 25% movement speed (unfettered strike) + 15% movement speed (fleet floated) + Bravery rank 4 (17.5% movement speed) the damage is increased by 13.08%

So basically adding 61% Movement Speed the Damage increased by 4.79% from 13.08%(with 61%) - 8.29%(just feat slotted).
* You guys should make it work 40% movement speed = 40% DMG increase.
    


#2.
Flanking maneuver AND Steel Blitz seems not to scale with Weapon master strike DR debuff, and doesnt benefit over Stayin Power either. Apparently Weapon Damage based encahants seem not to benefit from this either.



    #3.
Crippling strike, apparently your slow doesn't apply on the immune to CC targets, similar to Trample the Fallen, this looks like a counter productive change, i would consider these 2 powers as bugs, we are supposed to have increased damage against immune to CC targets, even if they are immune to the effect of it, these Powers should work if a Control Power is being casted on the enemy.


    #4.
Warrior's Rush is mentioning that is increasing MOVEMENT SPEED, while the buff in the bar says it's Run speed, in the tooltips for Fleet Footed and Unfettered Strike their tooltips are saying RUN SPEED, therefor Nimble Runner is supposed to be what exactly? Movement Speed (Movement Stat) or Run Speed? does increasing the Movement stat will also increase the Run Speed? 
How is Nimble Runner or Warrior's Rush supposed to work and the right tooltip?
    

#5.
Battle Trample doesn’t scale with buffs, same as other similar proccs such as Steel Blitz or flanking manuver that are based on Weapon Damage, Battle trample should inherit the buffs, even thou it should be decreased to 12.5% instead of 25%.

#6.
Survivor's Wraps aren't building Instigator Vengence stacks, it should work as it does for the Guardiang fighter's Conquerer's Capstone Reckless Attacker, or other similar feats in which you take 1x hit, you build 1x stack : ex Countless Scars. The synergy between the Wraps and the Capstone should be there.
    

1.1 Sword Master Instigator
    I can see this being played alot in PVP, with a Parrying at-will instead of Weapon master strike, this build will be played like a Conquerer Guardian Fighter, In PvE it might not synergize that well with the Capstone, i dont think it will beat the Destroyer, but thats not really the point, I belive it can perform great  in PVP, so it’s still a viable build, sure Destroyer will still remain good in PVP, but I guess players will choose their style which fits the best, but it matters that it’s viable and not useless how it used to be in the past.

    1.2 Iron Vanguard Instigator
    Would be a very strong Single Target PVP build, thats what I can say , not necessarly the best, but a viable choice, PvP Destroyer or Sentinel builds might be a thing too.
    agreed ^^ hopefully devs read this
  • someonedies
    someonedies Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    This is just a tip/hint of how you can redesign GWF class; it looks very similar to current Cryptic "Fighter" design, and this is all the more simple/logical across builds.

    There's 3 builds too:
    1 - Instigator.
    Colossus Smash
    40 Mana Cooldown: 20 seconds
    Smash a target enemy, dealing 160 damage and lowering their Armor by 20 for 3 seconds, causing them to take 20% increased damage.
    Passive: Base Attack Damage increased by 100%.
    Passive: Maximum Health reduced by 10%.
    2 - Destroyer:
    Twin Blades of Fury
    Basic Attacks reduce Heroic Strike's cooldown by 9 seconds, and increase Varian's Movement speed by 30% for 2 seconds.
    Passive: Attack Speed increased by 100%.
    Passive: Base Attack Damage reduced by 20%.
    3 - Sentinel:
    Taunt
    20 Mana Cooldown: 16 seconds
    Silence a target Hero and force them to attack Varian for 1.25 seconds.
    Passive: Maximum Health and Health Regeneration increased by 30%.
    (Code of Conflict) Anyway, worth a look.
    Rimuru?
    Dead 🔪
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    giz#2086 said:

    > @c1k4ml3kc3 said:



    > Since GWF is pretty straightforward, lower their Weapon Damage by 10%, but allow more adaptability to various elements they can utilize.



    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    *Not sure why quoting seems broken for me, but whatever*







    Err, no, since GWF offers almost no party-wide buffs, they rely on at least dealing decent damage, so more appropriate would be to raise the GWF weapon-damage by 10%.

    Other classes offers party support but are condemned to play support because they can't compete against GWF, I main a Warlock and i see 18k SW trying to get a party as main dps and failing, because we're only support in this game, same with CW forced to play support. So having a support path is worst because it's not balanced GWF always are the best option for dps, never nerfed, never messed, like...TR. My Warlock is 16k item level and nobody wants me as dps, but i play as buff slave for 14k GWFs, that's balance? When a dps class have a viable support path it's forced to play support.
    No, having a support path is great. If they completely murder your DPS like they did SW and CW, you can be useful somewhere until yer DPS is fixed.

    Notice how dead SW was until templock was fixed. I know plenty of DPS SWs that I'd gladly run with on my OP or GF.

    DPS only has to play support if that support is good. Eg, HRs can buff GFs really good, and took the spot of the 4th buffer in most burn groups due to great buffs on single target and ability to clear AoE extremely quickly.

    SWs popped in and they're brilliant buffers, and a proper templock can also do damage FYI, and not a small amount too.

    GWF was never changed because it's consistent. It's never gonna get something like that 1.4 billion SoD hit on Orcus. There's really nothing to change, and GWF should be used as the baseline for other DPS because it's not a very complicated formula.

    If ya want balance ya don't just willy nilly it and hope for the best. You need a constant, and that seems to be GWF because of its simplicity. That's why it has literally nothing other than DPS.


    Also, the existence of Conqueror and Tactician GFs completely renders your point... pointless. GFs are buffers or DPS that can also give some buffs, with a lower uptime, amount and so on. Yet I prefer running with DPS GFs. So no, if a class has a viable buff path, it won't play just the buff path.
    I'm sorry but the simple fact that content is to easy from crazy damage from classes due to buff and debuffs along with some classes already doing crazy damage prior to being buff things have to change to streamline the game and allow for a wider variety of roles and classes to play as a DPS. In the game current state for 5 man content it is 4 buffers and 1 DPS with that spot usually filled by a GWF or TR as of mod 14. Things have to change to allow all classes to play a DPS role, this includes GF and DCs. Than all pure DPS classes need to be adjust so they can play a support role. The devs already stated something like this coming, so soon enough GWF will be adjusted to play as a tank and actually be good enough at it to run as the primary tank. That being said, when this happens I expect the DPS build to take a slight hit in damage and balance the GWF class closer to the other DPS classes: SW, TR, CW, HR, DC, and GF.

    What I see in this update is a change for the GWF to actually be able to be more competitive in PVP. My guess is mod 16 we will see additional changes and that will probably be when GWF Destroyer path is adjusted to match the other DPS classes and the tank build will become viable for end game content.

    I see no issues with what is coming in mod 15 for GWF. Things will actually be better for GWF in PVP. Otherwise it is status quo for GWF. Mod 16 I expect some pretty big changes impacting the class. I will wait and see, but the devs are at least expanding the GWF with mod 15 a bit.
  • sirjimbofrancis
    sirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited October 2018


    100 million damage in a single hit vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.

    @noworries#8859



    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • ragequittingdc#8599
    ragequittingdc#8599 Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    most of great weapon fighters damage comes from their great weapon, why is that suprising? we aren't great leaping fighters, great dagger fighters, great roaring fighters, or whatever else, certainly not control wizards or trickster rogues. also, not every great weapon fighter uses a prominence at-will build and not all great weapon fighters are 17-18k with perfect understanding of how to buff theirselves, know when to pop artifact, have premade groups on stand-by, with a multiple legendary mount stable, sh20, etc..

    you could say that for any dps class as of right now though. just like you can say any dps class, plus guardian fighter, can one phase in tomb or cradle, because self and group buffing is most important for any of them, much more important than anything else. so yes, you absolutely can imagine other classes doing those things. saying gwf requires no skill or effort is just taking the hamster because it's not your main. if it is easy to play, and well, to you, that means you've got good at the class yourself. I know that is not widely accepted as true, but then, why do gwf players have a reputation as being terrible? maybe because some think you can just swing your sword around and you're competent. actually, it's nearly the hardest class to get in a group as when you're still trying to come up in ilvl because of it I'd wager, with regard to reputation.

    the fact of the matter is, even if the other two paragons were to be completely buffed into viability, they will never be these two things barring some major revamp changing gwf at their core function, meaning striker(dps) is the most important thing, like it or not:
    1. as good a buffer/debuffer as other classes since it is not a controller/leader.
    2. as good a tank as paladin or guardian as they are a, "defender", with no shield, and again, not leaders.

    in either case, the changes in the OP are basically what you are asking for. other encounters and at-wills that aren't useful in pve will be getting slight changes that will most likely lead to more changes in the future, just without the nerf, because please nerf gwf. run speed is hardly an issue but I would guess fighters can run fast because they are physically fit. I know I do run from trash pack to trash pack when it's possible(most cases it is not currently on my own), but never ahead of the op or gf because I don't like being face first on the ground since I can't tank or i-frame, and I do want aa if we have an ac.

    @c1k4ml3kc3
    Post edited by ragequittingdc#8599 on
    im actually the gwf carry
  • fuglymook
    fuglymook Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    People "complainers" still do not get that the GWF is only as good as the buffs the GWF are receiving. The GWF makes the best use of these buffs with its weapon damage. You can take any dps class to any dungeon and buff the HAMSTER out of them and as long as they have any clue as to what they are doing (actually knowing how to play their class) then they too can be king of the dps for that run and finish the run just as well as any GWF. GWFs without buffs are worse dps than other classes. GWF have to get stacks and determination to actually start to do good dps and totally owned by other classes with super fast burst dps.

    Not all GWFs are created equal and a GWF is super dependent on gear/enchants/companions. Thus making them super expensive to maintain.

    Why are other dps (SW, HR, and CW) classes not taken? The META party build, a party make up that exists for one thing and one thing only speed and ease. You honestly do not have to run the META party to complete any content in this game. If you can not get into groups then for pete's sake make your OWN parties that is what guilds are for!

    The GWF does not need to be a tank, the game already has two classes that fill that role.

    Give the GWF 3 trees that actually work, one for AoE, one for single target, and one for PvP.
  • schietindebux
    schietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User


    100 million damage in a single hit vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.

    @noworries#8859



    They allready nerfed that GWF, sadly...
    look here, the real problem are stacking buffs :)


  • gromovnipljesak#8234
    gromovnipljesak#8234 Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User


    100 million damage in a single hit vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.

    @noworries#8859



    They allready nerfed that GWF, sadly...
    look here, the real problem are stacking buffs :)


    Ye. Don't even need to be a GWF to do that ^^ no self buffs, no procs, nada. Just external buffs.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    fuglymook said:

    People "complainers" still do not get that the GWF is only as good as the buffs the GWF are receiving. The GWF makes the best use of these buffs with its weapon damage. You can take any dps class to any dungeon and buff the HAMSTER out of them and as long as they have any clue as to what they are doing (actually knowing how to play their class) then they too can be king of the dps for that run and finish the run just as well as any GWF. GWFs without buffs are worse dps than other classes. GWF have to get stacks and determination to actually start to do good dps and totally owned by other classes with super fast burst dps.

    Not all GWFs are created equal and a GWF is super dependent on gear/enchants/companions. Thus making them super expensive to maintain.

    Why are other dps (SW, HR, and CW) classes not taken? The META party build, a party make up that exists for one thing and one thing only speed and ease. You honestly do not have to run the META party to complete any content in this game. If you can not get into groups then for pete's sake make your OWN parties that is what guilds are for!

    The GWF does not need to be a tank, the game already has two classes that fill that role.

    Give the GWF 3 trees that actually work, one for AoE, one for single target, and one for PvP.

    GWF are self buffing damage dealers. Since buffs are multipliers they enhance the damage of a GWF further than some other classes. This results in the GWF being better than a CW, SW, TR (prior to mod 14), and HR if the GWF gets all of the buffs. Similar to how GF is with SWW and its list of self buffs. These two hard hitting class though vary by one factor - speed of attack. The GWF hits faster and that is due to its encounters being on the weaker side and mostly self buffing.

    I have no issues with the GWF in its current state if the devs place a soft and hard cap of buffs. This would bring the GWF damage closer to other classes that cannot self buff and get things more align.

    Instead of fixing the buffing issue, the devs went with class balance again. There will still be disparity between the classes as long as one class can self buff itself, receive other group buffs and have fast hard hitting weapon attacks.

    Mod 15 is probably going to be released as is..and I'm ok with that. But for mod 16 I hope the devs not only expand roles for class, add a new role to the q system but also place a soft and hard cap on buffs.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234
    gromovnipljesak#8234 Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User

    fuglymook said:

    People "complainers" still do not get that the GWF is only as good as the buffs the GWF are receiving. The GWF makes the best use of these buffs with its weapon damage. You can take any dps class to any dungeon and buff the HAMSTER out of them and as long as they have any clue as to what they are doing (actually knowing how to play their class) then they too can be king of the dps for that run and finish the run just as well as any GWF. GWFs without buffs are worse dps than other classes. GWF have to get stacks and determination to actually start to do good dps and totally owned by other classes with super fast burst dps.

    Not all GWFs are created equal and a GWF is super dependent on gear/enchants/companions. Thus making them super expensive to maintain.

    Why are other dps (SW, HR, and CW) classes not taken? The META party build, a party make up that exists for one thing and one thing only speed and ease. You honestly do not have to run the META party to complete any content in this game. If you can not get into groups then for pete's sake make your OWN parties that is what guilds are for!

    The GWF does not need to be a tank, the game already has two classes that fill that role.

    Give the GWF 3 trees that actually work, one for AoE, one for single target, and one for PvP.

    GWF are self buffing damage dealers. Since buffs are multipliers they enhance the damage of a GWF further than some other classes. This results in the GWF being better than a CW, SW, TR (prior to mod 14), and HR if the GWF gets all of the buffs. Similar to how GF is with SWW and its list of self buffs. These two hard hitting class though vary by one factor - speed of attack. The GWF hits faster and that is due to its encounters being on the weaker side and mostly self buffing.

    I have no issues with the GWF in its current state if the devs place a soft and hard cap of buffs. This would bring the GWF damage closer to other classes that cannot self buff and get things more align.

    Instead of fixing the buffing issue, the devs went with class balance again. There will still be disparity between the classes as long as one class can self buff itself, receive other group buffs and have fast hard hitting weapon attacks.

    Mod 15 is probably going to be released as is..and I'm ok with that. But for mod 16 I hope the devs not only expand roles for class, add a new role to the q system but also place a soft and hard cap on buffs.
    The reason GWF has been a constant is because of it's simplicity. TRs for instance in M14 are more complex but have a much higher DPS ceiling. GWFs and GFs are just really easy to run as DPS. CWs, SWs and HRs are imho, living hell to get down right, and I applaud players who can get those down.

    CWs seem to be really, really HAMSTER good in M15 after the changes, HRs had a small buff and no idea whats with SWs. The way to balance things isn't to cap things because that imposes a certain limit where skill doesn't even matter anymore.

    It's the exact issues Tacticians have. A 14k Tact is as good as an 18k one. It doesn't scale with skill and gear, due the the only cap on peak performance being uptime. The same would happen with a cap on buffs. Then it wouldn't be timing the buffs properly, it would be having the buffs up consistently be the goal, which has already been achieved by many of the better players.

    That means near endgame players wouldn't have anything that would visibly improve their performance, at least as supports. DPS can learn to time their biggest hits right now (stuff like GW, LB, IBS, Disintegrate...) however once you are past the "buff cap" you're talking about, it wouldn't be about timing, it would be about uptime. Same HAMSTER, different hat.
  • c1k4ml3kc3
    c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User

    These two hard hitting class though vary by one factor - speed of attack. The GWF hits faster and that is due to its encounters being on the weaker side and mostly self buffing.

    I do not think that this is how it is made to be, point of fact is that GWFs utilize their hardest DPS-ing ability in which case Sure Strike in combination with any damaging Weapon Enchantment is a win scenario. GWFs have many more encounters they can use in order to be of greater help to the party, which they do not want to do as it doesn't give them personal damage boost only.
    I've seen only 2 GWFs out of 100 I played with who were actually marking targets, allowing for a party-wide buff od Combat Advantage. This is something they can use and be happy to use it each time and also feel like a part of the team, same like everyone else. But no, they would rather buff themselves up and leave everything to others "doing their job" whilst they hold left mouse click and occasionally unleash IBS or perhaps even press TAB once or twice. Much skill.

    And those two who used Marking were the real MVPs. The epitome of a good pal GWF. Not those SureStrike bois.

    The rest only ask for buffs and they go around and kill everything whilst others simply watch and try to keep up. This is not fun and it is not a healthy party composition environment. As such, it needs to change and the eyes are on GWFs themselves. Since they do not want to accept that their class is overpowered but start finding arbitrary reasons and arguments in order to support Surestrikeism as "WAI" when de facto other classes received huge nerfs for same reasons when their powers were utilizing multiproccing, I won't find it saddening to any degree when they have to learn new mechanics and face the changes coming on their door. Soon you will have more and more people realizing that Surestrikeism is a major problem and at that time it's already too late.

    You can't avert this by showing how buffs/debuffs are overpowering as everyone knows that. Sure Strike is an At-Will that's proved to be in disbalance in contrast to other classes due to it's speed of attack as well as its ability to multiproc Weapon Enchantments. Don't run away from it but find a solution how it can be utilized to be least painful. Otherwise, you may not like what devs gonna do to it once they figure out that it's just wrong to keep a class on utilizing just one single at-will and weapon enchantment. So, find a solution and think about it.

    p.s. Yes, I call for Disintegrate nerf for a long time now. To add maybe 2-3 more sec as a CD on it. I do not like that spell one little bit and I find it a cheap spell that got introduced as a way to allow CWs to be at least a bit competitive when all AoE got nerfed to oblivion. It doesn't fit the prominent intrinsicality of wizard's gameplay and mechanics. Even Wizards now just want to utilize Disintegrate and Ice Knife in all case scenarios (and have been doing that for a long time now). I do not like that. Sue me for wanting more skill in gameplay instead of simplicity of press+button=win. : )
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • erikthered#8452
    erikthered#8452 Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    Also I don't want other class's lower in damage but want players to understand that the game has been designed in a way that the gwf has been designed as the primary dps and stop complaning when the Dev's bring the game back into line with this game design. Now I would like for the dungeons would at somepoint use each class speciality to progres in the dungeon. But I am done talking with someone that has no grasp on how the gwf is truly played.
  • rafamarques#5700
    rafamarques#5700 Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    suggestion to instigators:

    no chance to Crippling Strikes give to "not so fast" 2x more damage against crippling enemies? (+allied oportunity= less than a ibs)

    look, instigators+Crippling Strikes will FREELY slow your enemies by every source, so why chose not so fast after spend points in allied oportunity?

    i know you guys dont have a balance dev now, but some changes like that is easy to project.

  • gromovnipljesak#8234
    gromovnipljesak#8234 Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User

    suggestion to instigators:

    no chance to Crippling Strikes give to "not so fast" 2x more damage against crippling enemies? (+allied oportunity= less than a ibs)

    look, instigators+Crippling Strikes will FREELY slow your enemies by every source, so why chose not so fast after spend points in allied oportunity?

    i know you guys dont have a balance dev now, but some changes like that is easy to project.

    They do have a dev which is handling balance right now, it's noworries, which I'm ironically worried about because last big thing I remember he announced was the bonding nerf.
  • rafamarques#5700
    rafamarques#5700 Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    ps: to not so fast hit like a ibs (ignoring ex style), allied oportunity should buff by 50% (up to 30) AND not so fast be affected by daggers...

    well, looks like that tree will born dead.
  • heraldfayez#8520
    heraldfayez#8520 Member Posts: 227 Arc User


    100 million damage in a single hit vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.

    @noworries#8859



    weak argument since that one phase was only possible with the HR doing DPS too :) not huge difference on the board TRs right now can do the one phase as single entity dps with 9 buffers so no thnx mate this comparison is not valid