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M15: Trickster Rogue Class Changes

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  • mikal#9243 mikal Member Posts: 203 Arc User
    It seems to me like these changes will be forced upon us either way, i feel this will be counter productive since nobody will bother using the TR anymore...there just won't be any point. Without an active base playing the class the devs can't collect useful data for further balancing in the future. You need to give insentive for people to continue using a class so that your data pool is significant, i dont see how this will achieve it.
  • blackstar#3253 blackstar Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    "noworries#8859"> said

    100 million damage in a single hit vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.

    -----------
    it is now clear that ours is a lost battle, but,

    regardless of the fact, that 100 million damage is due to contemporary buffs, and not a single player, "class dps"

    but anyway, when we make 100 or more millions of damage,
    this is what we players call fun ...
    this, for developers, is what they do not want ..
  • eliasar#2396 eliasar Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    edited November 2018

    "noworries#8859"> said

    100 million damage in a single hit vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.

    -----------
    it is now clear that ours is a lost battle, but,

    regardless of the fact, that 100 million damage is due to contemporary buffs, and not a single player, "class dps"

    but anyway, when we make 100 or more millions of damage,
    this is what we players call fun ...
    this, for developers, is what they do not want ..

    Exactly as you said

    The real problem with dps classes doing "too much damage" is insane amount of used buffs. Why? Because its most effective in all latest dungeons that designed for "one dps" and 3 buffers + tank. Combined with not really rewarding dungeon rewards and RNG for UES people are basicaly FORCED to actualy do dungeons in such parties because its not so much time consuming. Any goddamn class can one phase boss, but sadly TR is only one hated class around, which means only one to nerf. Nerfing external buffs and making dungeons designed to encourage people to run with 3 dps would do the job for "balancing things" instead of nerfing one of dps classes to the ground.

    Devs seek to achieve balance (at least I want to believe that) but only thing you are going to achieve is excluding one entire dps class from any endgame content. As result of this, your so much sought balance will end up as "sorry no TR", "TR 18k too low" "LFG 16k GWF". Does it look like a balance? This wont stop current buff meta, this wont even stop one phasing bosses by other classes.

    Since module 15 is nearly here and "adjustments" we got since start of this thread are minimal, this disaster is going to happen. Only thing I hope for is DEVS realizing what they have done, followed by facepalm.
  • finalfantasyac7finalfantasyac7 Member Posts: 582 Arc User
    edited November 2018

    I main a TR and am really regretting extending my vip, but i play for fun and will try out the new mod just to see if its gonna be as bad as everybody says. i know that balancing needs to occur but i've been playing MMO's for nearly 15 years and i've never seen a class balance that has been so cack handed. a proper hatchet job. mod 15's supposed balance is actually an assassination of the TR, ironic really considering the class.

    I saw other classes like SW getting nice buffs so im gonna park my TR and have fun with my SW.
    Its kinda sad that im forced to play other classes due to nerfs... huge nerfs.
    Warlock- Lv80. || Rogue - Lv80. || Wizard - Lv80. || Paladin - Lv80. || Cleric - Lv80. || Ranger - Lv70. || Barbarian - Lv70. || Fighter - Lv70.

    ¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨

  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    Was going to work on my TR some more, but it was already miserable doing dailies. Can't just single target every mob one by one.
  • mikal#9243 mikal Member Posts: 203 Arc User
    100 million in damage using 1 hit was a SOD bug where it was double ticking, the devs patched it and nobody complained. Using it as justification for demolishing the TR class is disingenuous. A lot of bigs that affect our outgoing damage i actually find annoying and would like to see patched, especially aura of courage. Just so that and there isnt any issue
  • giz#2086 giz Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    Another mod that the only viable dps class is GWF. They mess with all other dps classes, making them useless or relegated to support to buff GWF.
  • theothergaliusz#7671 theothergaliusz Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    One With the Shadows: Damage bonus is now 40%

    The tooltip after update still shows 30% damage bonus
  • oldschooldndplyroldschooldndplyr Member Posts: 32 Arc User
    *peeks in thread to see if any positive changes have occurred since my last reading*

    *sees TR's are still getting hosed*

    *goes back to working on new main*
  • eliasar#2396 eliasar Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    edited November 2018

    *peeks in thread to see if any positive changes have occurred since my last reading*

    *sees TR's are still getting hosed*

    *goes back to playing another game*

    I honestly feel that this should be a quote from every TR main.



    Here you go!
    But seriously… only thing we got left is keep hoping despite of our faith (definitely mine) in good ending is gone. Only reason for me to play as TR is the fact I have some friends in game, besides of this nothing keeps me here anymore.
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    @terramak @noworries#8859 @frozenfirevr @kreatyve

    Today's heart of fire preview patch notes have what I assume is a mistake. They did say they are incomplete but I would make sure the full version includes a correction to the following:

    "Skullcracker (Reworked): Every 15 seconds you gain "Skullcracker" which causes your next At-will or encounter power to Daze an enemy for 3 seconds and apply a mark to them for 6 seconds. The duration of this mark is increased by 0.5 seconds each time you deal damage, up to a maximum of 4 bonus seconds. While marked, enemies take 25% more damage from your attacks and your powers deal damage to them as if they were controlled."

    Scullcracker's mark duration was increased to 10 seconds and the mark extension was increased to a total of 5 additional seconds.

    The above quote from the patch notes is the draft 1 version of scullcracker and incorrectly states the mark lasts 6 seconds and that the mark extension is up to 4 seconds.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    Some of the feat tooltips on preview haven't been updated to match their new values. Please check if this is going to be fixed when module 15 goes live. Here are the tooltips affected:

    Low Blows:
    This feat states it is a 20% damage buff on preview.

    It is supposed to say 25%

    Shadowborn:
    This feat states that it deals 75% of your encounter power damage.

    It is supposed to say 100%

    One With The Shadows:
    This feat states that it grants a 30% damage buff.

    It is supposed to say 40%
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    I'd also like to call special attention to this bug report, please make sure this gets fixed:

    @noworries#8859
    Exposed Weakness: this Sabo feat does not work. As far as I can tell it does literally nothing

    Also, there is an old bug with both scoundrel daze feats and the encounter power dazing strike that needs to be fixed. These dazes have a chance to turn into weird interrupts and do things like force players to recast their powers or break GF shields. I am not really sure what causes this, I haven't nailed down a trigger but this has been happening a lot on preview when I fight players, it seems like how often this bug occurs has increased somehow but its hard to tell. The classes I've fought that observed these effects are DCs, TRs, and GFs, which probably means all classes have this happen to them.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,130 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    The reworked concussive strikes feat has an... intriguing mechanic flaw that seems to have been missed.

    As part of the rework, concussive strikes now procs a 5% deflect buff in addition to its other effects.
    The tooltip states that this 5% deflect is supposed to stack "up to 5 times". It also states that each stack is procced when you daze a target with this feat and each stack lasts 5 seconds.

    The problem with this is that the daze itself can only proc once every 5 seconds and it even states this in the tooltip.
    This means that it is physically impossible for this feat to grant more than 1 stack of 5% deflect chance.
    I did test this and you indeed only get one stack.


    While harmless, there is no need to tack any amount of deflect onto concussive strikes. Just the daze part is really all this feat needs. The revamped mocking gesture feat + the numerous other sources of deflect provided by this game already cover scoundrel's deflect needs.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • talon1970talon1970 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 152 Arc User
    Well this would be my last words in this thread here (i think):

    My experience with the Tr during Mod 14 (and i know it is not representativ, but for me all this vids, clips, pics going around and you see an Tr oneshotting or onephasing even the biggest bosses with the highest Hp pool are neither).

    First i have to say i was very inactive during mod 14 bc of an couple of reasons, so again my experience is clearly not common sense.
    And yes i have (besides every offense and defense slot on Rank 14, and swarm mount) everything the Peanut Guide is referring too.
    And all examples are made with premade partys (guild/allie/fl) and i have no pics, vids, clips to proof anything, again just my words, without intention to lie.

    TonG (with double dipping SoD at the beginning):

    Yes for sure i want to see if i was able to onerotate Orcus, but in my only run in Mod 14 i screwed everything up, and our Gf dealed maybe too fast too much damage on him, so he flied away and everything from me was wasted, Soul Sight artifact, Powerlooping, SoD Procc..all of it.
    So the fight against him was some sort of "normal", for sure smoother than for an random party, but clearly no e-peen material.

    CR:

    Did only 6 runs for the shards in Castle Monologue during the two double shards weekends and 50% from the runs were bugged, so we couldn't finish it.
    And i was more busy to understand the mechanics, than dealing an superuber one shot SoD procc against all bosses (even with the silvery kit)
    *And as a little side note, why is such an gamebreaking tool like the silvery kit implementet? Once more a sign for me that so many people from the dev team don't know what is possible ingame.*

    If this kit is implementet with the intention to help pug groups to finish Cr, yes it is an nice idea, but on the other side (again) the devs underrestimatet the possibilties what is doable ingame with buffs and debuffs. (Don't get me wrong i am not against the "meta partys" or full "buff/debuff" groups i find this is some sort of unique gameplay and has his own fascination.)

    Cradle:

    Yes, ok Cradle i did maybe only 20 runs during Mod 14, and i was twice part of the party, able to onephasing the baby, and i say clearly "Part", bc i was not at the end dominating the paingiver charts, yes i was first but the Gwf or other dps'ers were not that much away from me (and i wasn't afk during the elevator phase).
    The rest of the other runs were "normal" and we had to go through all phases.

    see @noworries#8859 a Tr can nowadays under specific circumstances deal alot of dps up to an point, that even the "thoughest" bosses are "easy" to kill, but this is some sort of "normality" also nowadays for many premade partys, and you can replace the Tr with any other dps class (even Sw or now DoDc) as "primary dps".

    But if the Tr (or better said the primary dps) screws up his rotation and/or is missing the buff/debuff spike window...
    no oneshotting/phasing is not possible, and i know for example that alot of people were training the rotations for hours on the preview server, with the same people, so they could go on the live server and have succesful trys.

    And as second sidenote @noworries#8859 do me an favor on Mod 15, if the game has some sort of observation tool, look during the Mod how many people will still play active an Tr in PvE, how many will leave the game, skip the Mod or changing his Main to another more viable dps Char or are changing complete to an Supporter.
    Because all i've heared during the last weeks was:

    "Screw it, i'll leave/skip/change to (insert any other class)."


  • jonasdbomb662jonasdbomb662 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    for me the issue inst the class changes. the issue lies more in that you haven't give any information on what you want a TR to be. please give us some information on what you want from a TR, for example - Main DPS, off DPS support, ect. with the changes you have made makes it seem like you don't like having a TR as a main DPS. i also don't think it fair to change a class purely based off the performance top 1% of players because you end up upsetting the other 99% (as you can see by this thread). you also say that you don't like the 100 mil damage in 1 hit. i get that, but it seems very one dimensional to remove that capability from one class but not acknowledged that this is a feature of trait of multiple class (even a class i would consider to fall intothe tank). i have play Tr and mostly only Tr since i first installed this game back in 2012. i have seen the golden days of Tr absolute domination in PvP pre level 70 cap change, and i understand not wanting that monster to be revived. so please just give us some guidance because i have no idea what you want a Tr to be, and i have been here for a long time, and i can wait a little longer.

    your friendly confused Tr
  • mikal#9243 mikal Member Posts: 203 Arc User
    > @jonasdbomb662 said:
    > for me the issue inst the class changes. the issue lies more in that you haven't give any information on what you want a TR to be. please give us some information on what you want from a TR, for example - Main DPS, off DPS support, ect. with the changes you have made makes it seem like you don't like having a TR as a main DPS. i also don't think it fair to change a class purely based off the performance top 1% of players because you end up upsetting the other 99% (as you can see by this thread). you also say that you don't like the 100 mil damage in 1 hit. i get that, but it seems very one dimensional to remove that capability from one class but not acknowledged that this is a feature of trait of multiple class (even a class i would consider to fall intothe tank). i have play Tr and mostly only Tr since i first installed this game back in 2012. i have seen the golden days of Tr absolute domination in PvP pre level 70 cap change, and i understand not wanting that monster to be revived. so please just give us some guidance because i have no idea what you want a Tr to be, and i have been here for a long time, and i can wait a little longer.
    >
    > your friendly confused Tr

    Ive asked this same question to be honest. A TR in party content only has damage to offer. We have no healing, no party buffs and no group utility. If the damage is taken away then what is the TR? We need to know the answer to that
  • finalfantasyac7finalfantasyac7 Member Posts: 582 Arc User

    > @jonasdbomb662 said:

    > for me the issue inst the class changes. the issue lies more in that you haven't give any information on what you want a TR to be. please give us some information on what you want from a TR, for example - Main DPS, off DPS support, ect. with the changes you have made makes it seem like you don't like having a TR as a main DPS. i also don't think it fair to change a class purely based off the performance top 1% of players because you end up upsetting the other 99% (as you can see by this thread). you also say that you don't like the 100 mil damage in 1 hit. i get that, but it seems very one dimensional to remove that capability from one class but not acknowledged that this is a feature of trait of multiple class (even a class i would consider to fall intothe tank). i have play Tr and mostly only Tr since i first installed this game back in 2012. i have seen the golden days of Tr absolute domination in PvP pre level 70 cap change, and i understand not wanting that monster to be revived. so please just give us some guidance because i have no idea what you want a Tr to be, and i have been here for a long time, and i can wait a little longer.

    >

    > your friendly confused Tr



    Ive asked this same question to be honest. A TR in party content only has damage to offer. We have no healing, no party buffs and no group utility. If the damage is taken away then what is the TR? We need to know the answer to that

    We going to be a cheerleader... or dummy or both cheerdummy.
    * In battle*
    Other classes: "I don't feel good"
    TR: "Hello everyone :)"
    Other classes: "Hey look, its a tr. A dps class that can't dps. I feel much better now"
    Warlock- Lv80. || Rogue - Lv80. || Wizard - Lv80. || Paladin - Lv80. || Cleric - Lv80. || Ranger - Lv70. || Barbarian - Lv70. || Fighter - Lv70.

    ¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨

  • leonidrexleonidrex Member Posts: 401 Arc User

    > @jonasdbomb662 said:

    > for me the issue inst the class changes. the issue lies more in that you haven't give any information on what you want a TR to be. please give us some information on what you want from a TR, for example - Main DPS, off DPS support, ect. with the changes you have made makes it seem like you don't like having a TR as a main DPS. i also don't think it fair to change a class purely based off the performance top 1% of players because you end up upsetting the other 99% (as you can see by this thread). you also say that you don't like the 100 mil damage in 1 hit. i get that, but it seems very one dimensional to remove that capability from one class but not acknowledged that this is a feature of trait of multiple class (even a class i would consider to fall intothe tank). i have play Tr and mostly only Tr since i first installed this game back in 2012. i have seen the golden days of Tr absolute domination in PvP pre level 70 cap change, and i understand not wanting that monster to be revived. so please just give us some guidance because i have no idea what you want a Tr to be, and i have been here for a long time, and i can wait a little longer.

    >

    > your friendly confused Tr



    Ive asked this same question to be honest. A TR in party content only has damage to offer. We have no healing, no party buffs and no group utility. If the damage is taken away then what is the TR? We need to know the answer to that

    you debug trap in tong :D
  • spidey#3367 spidey Member Posts: 400 Arc User
    giz#2086 said:

    Another mod that the only viable dps class is GWF. They mess with all other dps classes, making them useless or relegated to support to buff GWF.

    This is a TR feedback thread. Dont post false facts about other classes. Thx.

  • dagambitdagambit Member Posts: 187 Arc User
    With this thread continuing to grow I guess there is really no reason for me to return to this game after deployment since the TR was my main character. R.l.P Neverwinter.
    Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (PC)
    Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (XB1)
    Rogue - Serenity (PS4)
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User

    for me the issue inst the class changes. the issue lies more in that you haven't give any information on what you want a TR to be.

    Maybe the same, they want other classes to be?
    A 2. degree buffer (most classes) or
    a not wanted tank ->GF
    or a wanted class everywhere for ages -> double DC meta
    or a bad dps -> warlock
    and more
    ... this is how actual plans seem to look like about class system :)
  • mongoosemobstermongoosemobster Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    The base damage dealt by all Trickster Rogue powers has increased by ~5%
    Appreciate that feedback was listened to.
  • mongoosemobstermongoosemobster Member Posts: 42 Arc User

    for me the issue inst the class changes. the issue lies more in that you haven't give any information on what you want a TR to be.

    Maybe the same, they want other classes to be?
    A 2. degree buffer (most classes) or
    a not wanted tank ->GF
    or a wanted class everywhere for ages -> double DC meta
    or a bad dps -> warlock
    and more
    ... this is how actual plans seem to look like about class system :)
  • ironraine#6605 ironraine Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    I would like feedback on what the TR is supposed to be for this game. I have never and will never participate in PVP content as I do not like PVP. I have thought of the TR as a finesse fighter since none of the tabletop mechanics for support are needed in a digital game, and none of the TR skills actually provide support in end game content. A significantly underpowered fighter until the last couple of mods, but I enjoy the fast, light feel of the TR mechanics. That is being taken away with mod 15 so I am floundering as to what the intended purpose is for the TR since they can no longer provide dps.

    Please provide feedback.
  • From the Preview Patch notes

    Whisperknife should now be a more viable Paragon Path


    I really didn't see much of a change for Whisperknife or am I crazy?
  • faberj#7515 faberj Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    I have a TR 17K and at least two years of gaming experience, I waited to see the final version of mod 15 before deciding, the result is horrendous, a devastated class, I have no words!
    FROM TODAY YOU WILL HAVE A PLAYER IN LESS, and like me many others, congratulations.
  • zerappuszerappus Member Posts: 138 Arc User

    From the Preview Patch notes

    Whisperknife should now be a more viable Paragon Path


    I really didn't see much of a change for Whisperknife or am I crazy?
    My first 2 characters (and only non-Archers) are Trickster rogues (before Rangers were released). I rarely play them until last year or so but I was impressed by the buff to both my Whisperknife-Scoundrels.

    The Scoundrel part was obviously buffed, but the Whisperknife part is negligible perhaps because knives are hard to use in combos and only used when target is too far away and almost dead.
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