LOL I also i dont speak english, so, copy paste and google translate..sry guys too long to translate for me..
Should have done it yourself and paste the translation.
This is now an Italian meme thread.
Jokes aside, even though powerlooping was "too strong", notice how that "too strong" thing made the class perfectly balanced with the rest. This essentially means that the class was just weak all along. It was too much in PvP and not enough in PvE.
Here, i translated, but i dont know if its right..
A player empowers the character to bring him to the best of his ability ..
1) not everyone can do more than 100 million damage .. 2) usually, only the end game players can do that stratospheric damage .. 3) If your goal, is not to give the possibility, to do 100 million damage, what do you expect from an end game player? 4) Do you expect only 10 million damage? If that's what you expect ... for what purpose have we enhanced our characters? 5) I do not just talk about the thief, but all the classes ...
Besides being a dps I am also a devoted cleric and a paladin ... I am quite objective about things and I identify myself quite well even in the shoes of other classes. So, that damage is given by a combination of players ("usually" end game) with the maximum possible buff, artifacts, abilities, powers, talents, etc. etc. and it's all enhanced to the maximum .. (and you have to have the right timing .. "something that is not easy")
well: this being said, the end game players will have the diminished and limited damage ... but to the lower level players what will happen? .. (I'm not talking about me, I'm endgame with my thief, my personal problem about this nerf is just the fear of not being invited to the groups for the low damage I'll produce) ... the lower players, the poor guys , will have to stay 30/40 minutes in castle never of which 15 minutes only to orcus? I'm just assuming, but the average is 20 minutes with a medium level group 10 / 12k gs ..
(Here is a simple question I would like to have an answer to ... Why do you need to nertify the characters, overwhelming the lives of the players, when instead you could produce more difficult content?)
Every few months is always the same story ... nerf here and there ... and people have to go through their period of frustration ... because to tell the truth ... let's be clear, this is one of the real frustrations of this play ... and it is not the divinity of the devoted cleric or the divine call of the paladin to be frustrating ... I have already said in a previous comment, that I will not complain about the reduction of my damage, but hearing the various thieves, who have the opportunity to test the damage on a PC, the situation does not seem to be the best ... Thank you for giving an increase in basic power with an increase of 5%, I just hope it is enough to be competitive with other dps ... but not for being the first dps, I do not care to be, the first dps in the results ... I like it and I enjoy playing the dungeons because for me personally the dungeons are the best game experience of neverwinter, I hope it's enough just to have a chance to be invited to the dungeon content groups.
In any case, you're limiting a class to a DPS ceiling.
Pretty much agreed. Fortunately, though, it seems they understood that a bit. Polishing the foundational mechanics of the class before working on the Dailies:
This week I did add a base power to the TR class that is giving all At-Wills, Encounters, and Dailies a 5% damage multiplier boost. Overall a lot of the feedback in the thread is that the 3 feat trees are actually close to one another now, but that damage may be on the low side. Because of this we went with a universal damage increase for M15 instead of boosting something that may have pulled the feat trees further apart again.
And there we go. First thing he did was add base power. Now that's called good methodology, to set the baseline attributes and mechanics before moving on to that which builds upon the baseline foundation.
Finally, given that they intend to tweak via modifying universal damage (probably on a table, right?), we've got a good amount of time to test and continue the OODA loop.
your humor is so amazing...next time you do copy past if i write in my language...because i dont think its so hard for you make copy past...or is it ?!
100 million damage in a single hit from a no GF-GWF character vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.
....Is what he wanted to say. For that reason they always nerfs the classes when they can come near to GWF-GF damage.
100 million damage in a single hit from a no GF-GWF character vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.
....Is what he wanted to say. For that reason they always nerfs the classes when they can come near to GWF-GF damage.
TR 100m SoD and GF 100m GW isn't the same though. That means they'd have to do 200m damage now to get a 100m damage SoD, in 6 seconds. GW is a tad overpowered considering it's a tank class technically, but I don't mind it. Heck, all the power to it, getting the timing just right should be rewarding.
However that don't change the fact that they're completely off with these nerfs.
100 million damage in a single hit from a no GF-GWF character vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.
....Is what he wanted to say. For that reason they always nerfs the classes when they can come near to GWF-GF damage.
TR 100m SoD and GF 100m GW isn't the same though. That means they'd have to do 200m damage now to get a 100m damage SoD, in 6 seconds. GW is a tad overpowered considering it's a tank class technically, but I don't mind it. Heck, all the power to it, getting the timing just right should be rewarding.
However that don't change the fact that they're completely off with these nerfs.
That wasn't how the TR worked back when that was a thing. You absolutely did not have to hit 200mil damage to trigger a 100mil SoD. As SoD was, if I remember correctly, buff-able by various TR and other class features.
100 million damage in a single hit from a no GF-GWF character vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.
....Is what he wanted to say. For that reason they always nerfs the classes when they can come near to GWF-GF damage.
TR 100m SoD and GF 100m GW isn't the same though. That means they'd have to do 200m damage now to get a 100m damage SoD, in 6 seconds. GW is a tad overpowered considering it's a tank class technically, but I don't mind it. Heck, all the power to it, getting the timing just right should be rewarding.
However that don't change the fact that they're completely off with these nerfs.
That wasn't how the TR worked back when that was a thing. You absolutely did not have to hit 200mil damage to trigger a 100mil SoD. As SoD was, if I remember correctly, buff-able by various TR and other class features.
Dunno how the math exactly is, but you get my point. They'd have to do a HAMSTER ton of damage to do an additional HAMSTER ton of damage, and it scales very high. However there are better ways to control that. This was just mental.
Random WISDOM: Lisining to players is not alwayes a good idea/practice because they are in the dark of some issues, loophole that can be created by them. Some ideas are imposible to implement, but there can be one idea that can result with feature that eveyrone can enjoy, but you need read 50 of them.
What the hell are you talking about?
Listening to feedback doesn't mean you implement all of the ideas. Or any of them. The devs ask for feedback and then arrange it, analyze it, then make their own decision.
Besides, why are you so sure that Cryptic devs are better at ideas than other people? That's not to say they are or aren't.
But there's no guarantee.
And I promise you, without feedback - without a feedback loop - any game, infrastructure construction, cars, planes, and space shuttles would never work. I highly suggest you understand the concept(s) of the feedback loop and the OODA loop (observe, orient, decide, and act). The OODA loop was developed by the military strategist who developed E&M theory of dogfighting, as well as taught to the Marines, pretty much copied down in the USMC War Manual. Then, and still, the OODA loop is 100% useful in the business field, too.
Of course nerfing class can have impact where Beginer player with 12k IL try to run endgame dungeon. Experience people after nerf wont help them pass the dungeon. After many failures, also those nerfed classes will need help from other people. I also experience many 18k DC who left party because dungeon run toke to much of their time. Everyone know how hard it is to find DC in the game. How much time you spend to form party that will not taste failure. Risk are something you dont take in the game without huge gain.
That's exactly the complaint and nothing more.
You should realize that there is no consensual preference how we want things to be balanced.
Have you thought about why loopholes and "gaming the mechanics" are used? Because they were the only tools to make them UP to par. You know why everybody uses Shadow of Demise? Because that, on Live, is the only endgame-useful capstone.
Cryptic pigeonholes the class. Not the players. I play a damn Saboteur Whisperknife as my "main" loadout - and I can't complain because I'm the one who makes the idiotic choice to run around as a Sabo WK. Of course end-game will be different build (esp. with patch changes).
Do you blame the TRs for never playing WK? Do you blame either Fighter for never playing Iron Vanguard?
---
And the most ironic thing is that I actually do like some of what the dev said last reply, but whatever.
There are some weird things about this feat: -If triggered by an AoE encounter, it only applies to 1 target (the random target that gets Shadow of Demise). -If triggered a second time before the first Shadowborn ends, it resets the timer and refreshes the damage over time effect based on the new encounter that triggered it. In other words, it doesn't stack.
The old Shadowborn that increased the power rating by 100% was triggered by any DoT going on during stealth. Even reflected damage from boons triggered it. It was wasted by bleeds, smoke bomb ticks, etc.
Mod 14 Shadowborn (or 13.5, I don't remember exactly) is only triggered by encounters and dailies. Normally it is not wasted (unless you use smoke bomb and then enter stealth).
This new Mod 15 Shadowborn... if triggered by AoE, it is normally wasted on a trash mob. If there is a group of mobs and you try to hit the big one with a single target encounter... well, that is almost impossible. If you trigger it twice in 4.5 seconds in a boss fight, you lose some ticks from the first one (and the damage those ticks would add to Shadow of Demise). The added damage is a bit more than the old +100% power rating but it feels like wasted in almost all scenarios again (and somehow it is tied to Shadow of Demise).
IMO, it should apply to all targets hit and the added damage should be instant damage or stackable damage. It is ironic that Executioner has been the most played Rogue during years and almost no Executioner uses tier 5 feats in PvE. The current regular Rogue with Shadow of Demise, Smoke Bomb and ITC feels a Scoundrel rather than an Executioner. And I think an important reason for this current playing stile is the weird and somehow broken Shadowborn.
Overall, I like the changes. The 3 paths are balanced and there are more playing stiles now. And I agree about smoke bomb being a control power rather than a damaging power.
Best regards.
P.S. Edited cause I was wrong about it being multitarget in mod 14. My bad.
And I agree about smoke bomb being a control power rather than a damaging power.
If SB is supposed to controll enemies shouldn't this trigger every companion, insignia or whatever bonus there is against controlled targets and give cobmbat adv? To my knowledge only CB counts as an actual Control power. Fix that first and then reduce SB base damage.
Tr's need 6s to deal the dmg that guy does(if played correctly) with 1 stack of griffon. Seriously? tr's need skill to deal more dmg than gwf/gf, yet you still nerfed it to the ground. I hope one day you fix gf's dps, it's not normal as you can see, and this video is not the only one, there are MANY gf's who can do that :< . I would like to see harder content, but if you want to make the actual conent harder, you should cut the dmg at every class, not only one. Guess the next meta will be worse with those balanced changes
And I agree about smoke bomb being a control power rather than a damaging power.
If SB is supposed to controll enemies shouldn't this trigger every companion, insignia or whatever bonus there is against controlled targets and give cobmbat adv? To my knowledge only CB counts as an actual Control power. Fix that first and then reduce SB base damage.
Yes, it should. All dazes should count as control power and trigger the related bonusses. I still hope they will fix it... I know, sometimes I am too optimistic.
Tr's need 6s to deal the dmg that guy does(if played correctly) with 1 stack of griffon. Seriously? tr's need skill to deal more dmg than gwf/gf, yet you still nerfed it to the ground. I hope one day you fix gf's dps, it's not normal as you can see, and this video is not the only one, there are MANY gf's who can do that :< . I would like to see harder content, but if you want to make the actual conent harder, you should cut the dmg at every class, not only one. Guess the next meta will be worse with those balanced changes
Wrong. The game's balance issues don't come from a mix of OP classes and nerfed classes. It comes from every class being in a state of nerf, just to different degrees of unhealthiness.
So nerfing things down to what's going on with the TR isn't a good idea. That'll make every player of every class stop playing the game. You'll be like someone with the plague and run around trying to spread it to everyone. Balancing things. By killing things.
The major problem is that devs desperately try to "fix the symptoms" instead of "cure the core of problems". If they would take care of buffs like they did for debuffs, there would be a base to start with.
Every mod they ad some new silly stuff, multiplier on gear is a bad idea anyway.
I think they took one too many advice from Thanos, trying to bring balance by making everything and everyone HAMSTER, not realizing their dungeons are made to be run quickly to get the chase items that are necessary to earn AD in the game.
From now on it's gonna be 30-40 min runs for like 2% chance to drop a UES with TR as main DPS.
I think they took one too many advice from Thanos, trying to bring balance by making everything and everyone HAMSTER, not realizing their dungeons are made to be run quickly to get the chase items that are necessary to earn AD in the game.
From now on it's gonna be 30-40 min runs for like 2% chance to drop a UES with TR as main DPS.
I don´t think so, you can even buff a dsp-DC or OP to do content in short time.
Lisining to players is not alwayes a good idea/practice because they are in the dark of some issues, loophole that can be created by them.
Who do you listen to, then?
Because if you don't listen to anyone, and you don't get criticism, then all you're doing is playing God with the development of the game. So much arrogance that your opinion is automatically great. Unquestionable faith in yourself and your team that it's like treating the development as a religion.
Pro-tip: The devs listening doesn't mean they have to agree with the feedback. They analyze the feedback, increase communication, and then at the end they are burdened with the final design and execution. So if you don't give the devs feedback, then the devs only get anxious, confused, running around like decapitated chickens not knowing whether or what to change or not change, buff or nerf, etc.
Because you know one of the shittiest things in life?
Trying to make a decision with absolutely no data.
---
As for NWN1/NWN2. I played on a "persistent world." For years. City of Arabel. But the Aurora Engine's intent, objective, tools, tiling, scripting, etc., etc. was meant to #1 Design and play D&D sessions in a visual and online manner with a small party and a DM. Clearly that didn't work out. The other main intent of the Aurora Engine was for making single player modules. And the official campaign was mostly a demo of Aurora's module creation system, as well as execs saying that you gotta have a story! And if you haven't played any of the single player modules, you've basically missed out on quite a few amateur modules that are better than most games, more choices and consequences, more options for roleplaying, etc. etc. etc..
Here's a list of some of the ones I played... IIRC..:
What I'm saying is that the whole idea of the "persistent world" is a HAMSTER loophole.
That doesn't mean they were bad - obviously if they were I wouldn't have played years on a PW. But PWs were never intended, servers weren't designed to hold more than one party and a DM (but thankfully they were able to. Unintentionally).
By the way, that NWN2 server? It's. Balanced. By. Players. Not professional developers. It was also created from scratch by players, tile by tile. And certain players on the team need to be online as DMs watching over things and/or taking over NPCs to, again, create from scratch some unique events.
Ironically, the good RPG devs like to post on the RPG forum I go to, communicate with us, ask for our feedback (and we are like the most vile gaming forum, but useful because smart but elitist as HAMSTER). By good RPG devs I mean: Obsidian, who did NWN2. Specifically, Chris Avellone designed emoticons for us. Sawyer sometimes comes. Bantering with Larian's Sven and David Walgrave, conversing about RPG design, making fun of Walgrave's time as a heavy metal vocalist. At least one of the senior members/mods joined up with InXile. Tim Cain. Well, a lot of guys from the now defunct Interplay's defunct Black Isle Studios.
So many of these people have designed, wrote, produced, or *created* games such as..
- Fallout 1 and 2 - Baldur's Gate 1 and its expansion, BG2 and its expansion - Planescape: Torment - Icewind Dale 1, 2, and HoW - Lionheart (lol) - Divine Divinity, Divinity 2, Divinity Original Sin, Divinity Original Sin 2 - Wasteland 2 - KOTOR2 - NWN2 - Alpha Protocol - Fallout: New Vegas - South Park: The Stick of Truth (lol Obsidian) - Pillars of Eternity - Arcanum - Vampire the Masquerade; Bloodlines - Temple of Elemental Evil
- Fallout 1 and 2 - Baldur's Gate 1 and its expansion, BG2 and its expansion - Planescape: Torment - Icewind Dale 1, 2, and HoW - Lionheart (lol) - Divine Divinity, Divinity 2, Divinity Original Sin, Divinity Original Sin 2 - Wasteland 2 - KOTOR2 - NWN2 - Alpha Protocol - Fallout: New Vegas - South Park: The Stick of Truth (lol Obsidian) - Pillars of Eternity - Arcanum - Vampire the Masquerade; Bloodlines - Temple of Elemental Evil
I think they took one too many advice from Thanos, trying to bring balance by making everything and everyone HAMSTER, not realizing their dungeons are made to be run quickly to get the chase items that are necessary to earn AD in the game.
From now on it's gonna be 30-40 min runs for like 2% chance to drop a UES with TR as main DPS.
I don´t think so, you can even buff a dsp-DC or OP to do content in short time.
From the DC thread, consensus seems that AC is still fine but DO is now not, lol.
The way I see it, that's not better than the TR changes - it's simply less bad.
--
Though don't misunderstand me. I am still rather happy the devs' acknowledgement that the base mechanics, damage, etc. of the TR that are the real issue.
Here, i translated, but i dont know if its right..
A player empowers the character to bring him to the best of his ability ..
1) not everyone can do more than 100 million damage .. 2) usually, only the end game players can do that stratospheric damage .. 3) If your goal, is not to give the possibility, to do 100 million damage, what do you expect from an end game player? 4) Do you expect only 10 million damage? If that's what you expect ... for what purpose have we enhanced our characters? 5) I do not just talk about the thief, but all the classes ...
Besides being a dps I am also a devoted cleric and a paladin ... I am quite objective about things and I identify myself quite well even in the shoes of other classes. So, that damage is given by a combination of players ("usually" end game) with the maximum possible buff, artifacts, abilities, powers, talents, etc. etc. and it's all enhanced to the maximum .. (and you have to have the right timing .. "something that is not easy")
well: this being said, the end game players will have the diminished and limited damage ... but to the lower level players what will happen? .. (I'm not talking about me, I'm endgame with my thief, my personal problem about this nerf is just the fear of not being invited to the groups for the low damage I'll produce) ... the lower players, the poor guys , will have to stay 30/40 minutes in castle never of which 15 minutes only to orcus? I'm just assuming, but the average is 20 minutes with a medium level group 10 / 12k gs ..
(Here is a simple question I would like to have an answer to ... Why do you need to nertify the characters, overwhelming the lives of the players, when instead you could produce more difficult content?)
Every few months is always the same story ... nerf here and there ... and people have to go through their period of frustration ... because to tell the truth ... let's be clear, this is one of the real frustrations of this play ... and it is not the divinity of the devoted cleric or the divine call of the paladin to be frustrating ... I have already said in a previous comment, that I will not complain about the reduction of my damage, but hearing the various thieves, who have the opportunity to test the damage on a PC, the situation does not seem to be the best ... Thank you for giving an increase in basic power with an increase of 5%, I just hope it is enough to be competitive with other dps ... but not for being the first dps, I do not care to be, the first dps in the results ... I like it and I enjoy playing the dungeons because for me personally the dungeons are the best game experience of neverwinter, I hope it's enough just to have a chance to be invited to the dungeon content groups.
No worries, I get what you mean.
And I agree very much. I am almost not just talking about the thief. Generally speaking, I'm not fond of nerfing any class to the at endgame, your "personal problem about this nerf is just the fear of not being invited to the groups for the low damage I'll produce" and that " just hope it is enough to be competitive with other dps ... but not for being the first dps, I do not care to be, the first dps in the results ... I like it and I enjoy playing the dungeons because for me personally the dungeons are the best game experience of neverwinter, I hope it's enough just to have a chance to be invited to the dungeon content groups."
That is the essential, holistic criticism here. We want to be useful enough to be invited. How this is done really doesn't matter as long as it's successful, that TR (and other classes) are close enough that parties work with a much bigger variety of characters, classes, and builds.
blackstar, my friend, your English fine, it's very clear to read.
Damage for TRs went down from where they were in M14. This is called out many times in this thread as a reason that different powers should get buffed up. However, generally it isn't also acknowledged that TRs had sky high damage in M14 and that isn't where any class should be at.
100 million damage in a single hit vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.
Smoke Bomb didn't have its damage reduced because of the AoC bug, that was a bug and as such it was fixed. The damage was reduced because it was a power primarily intended to control targets, not to also be one of the highest damaging powers in the TR arsenal and as such be used in almost all situations.
Balance doesn't just mean reducing/increasing the stats on a power. Sometimes synergies need to be changed or removed all together, and other times functionality needs to be significantly changed to open up other options in a class. We need to be able to make those kinds of changes, when necessary, or we can't get the game into a good place with classes/content.
This week I did add a base power to the TR class that is giving all At-Wills, Encounters, and Dailies a 5% damage multiplier boost. Overall a lot of the feedback in the thread is that the 3 feat trees are actually close to one another now, but that damage may be on the low side. Because of this we went with a universal damage increase for M15 instead of boosting something that may have pulled the feat trees further apart again.
Yeh i know, i was using Ioun stone comp. Im a pvp tr and didn't care much about my dps in pve. But look at the other TR tho, i bet it was a pve tr cuz i've never seen him in pvp, and he was second on paingiver board. Guess who is the first... Guardian Fighter... killing dragon within x sec
Maybe i should work harder on my tr... o wait, why bother. I mean... we are getting nerfed to the ground anyway.
Yeh i know, i was using Ioun stone comp. Im a pvp tr and didn't care much about my dps in pve. But look at the other TR tho, i bet it was a pve tr cuz i've never seen him in pvp, and he was second on paingiver board. Guess who is the first... Guardian Fighter... killing dragon within x sec
Maybe i should work harder on my tr... o wait, why bother. I mean... we are getting nerfed to the ground anyway.
Because ELOL is a good metric. That's like comparing to an HR in the CoDG elevator phase.
In any case, right now, in a proper test environment TRs can beat GFs in DPS, given that the TRs are skilled (as they're big time skill cannons).
Go into a ToNG, get a GF and a TR, and give them same buffs. See who does more damage. Give the Bloody Death buff to a support.
Testing in a dungeon where the entire dungeon has less health than a T3 dungeon boss, is no bueno.
Yeh i know, i was using Ioun stone comp. Im a pvp tr and didn't care much about my dps in pve. But look at the other TR tho, i bet it was a pve tr cuz i've never seen him in pvp, and he was second on paingiver board. Guess who is the first... Guardian Fighter... killing dragon within x sec
Maybe i should work harder on my tr... o wait, why bother. I mean... we are getting nerfed to the ground anyway.
Because ELOL is a good metric. That's like comparing to an HR in the CoDG elevator phase.
In any case, right now, in a proper test environment TRs can beat GFs in DPS, given that the TRs are skilled (as they're big time skill cannons).
Go into a ToNG, get a GF and a TR, and give them same buffs. See who does more damage. Give the Bloody Death buff to a support.
Testing in a dungeon where the entire dungeon has less health than a T3 dungeon boss, is no bueno.
Im sure you meant TR must be skilled + maxed on everything like enchants, comps, etc.
Maxed TR: Woohoo.. Yeaa!! 100M damage with 1 hit Cryptic Dev: Hold on.. have to stop you there. This is not o~Kay ! Maxed TR: B..but the gf and the gwf also did 100M damage and they aren't maxed like me Cryptic Dev: No excuses. You neither one of them. You are a TR and they are not.
Yeh i know, i was using Ioun stone comp. Im a pvp tr and didn't care much about my dps in pve. But look at the other TR tho, i bet it was a pve tr cuz i've never seen him in pvp, and he was second on paingiver board. Guess who is the first... Guardian Fighter... killing dragon within x sec
Maybe i should work harder on my tr... o wait, why bother. I mean... we are getting nerfed to the ground anyway.
Because ELOL is a good metric. That's like comparing to an HR in the CoDG elevator phase.
In any case, right now, in a proper test environment TRs can beat GFs in DPS, given that the TRs are skilled (as they're big time skill cannons).
Go into a ToNG, get a GF and a TR, and give them same buffs. See who does more damage. Give the Bloody Death buff to a support.
Testing in a dungeon where the entire dungeon has less health than a T3 dungeon boss, is no bueno.
Im sure you meant TR must be skilled + maxed on everything like enchants, comps, etc.
Maxed TR: Woohoo.. Yeaa!! 100M damage with 1 hit Cryptic Dev: Hold on.. have to stop you there. This is not o~Kay ! Maxed TR: B..but the gf and the gwf also did 100M damage and they aren't maxed like me Cryptic Dev: No excuses. You neither one of them. You are a TR and they are not.
No, a proper TR can beat more highly geared GWFs and GFs easily, at least right now. Also, TRs I know do a "bit" more than 100m damage with SoD. Easily.
TR and GF are the only class that could even attempt to do smth like Orcus 1phase without a weapon enchant. However, TR is the only class that could do it at 15-16k.
It's yer fault if ya don't know how to PvE bud. But the TRs, GFs, GWFs and others I run with are evenly matched. Of course, TRs are getting nerfed, which is HAMSTER' stupid, but right now, TRs rule. WoB+SB on AoE and everything is dead.
On single target, get the rotation down and you'll hit 150-200m SoDs, at BiS levels.
And no, I didn't meant skilled+maxed. One of the best TRs I know isn't even close to maxed.
Wow this is crazy glad I’m on deployment right now. I know I am gonna be pissed with the changes that are going to affect my TR. One big I have learned about Cryptic is that if it is something the players enjoy the will kill it. And we waste our time complaining about it, and giving suggestions but they don’t care. They had the game plan for a long time for TRs this isn’t something that just happened. I will put money on the fact that no one at Cryptic plays any class seriously only at work to test. The 2 DC meta was something they sought to destroy and now the TR. I will probably play when I return and quite if I don’t like the changes. I also quit when RQ was introduced this may be the nail in the coffin for me. I don’t play games were I am forced to play the way the devs want me to play. That includes content. Hope the TR class is not in a poor stay when I return to the game.
Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (PC) Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (XB1) Rogue - Serenity (PS4)
If you all didn't know, GF DPS is getting nerfed according to Thomas Foss (mimicking). Watch Nova's interview on Youtube (go to 41:07). Nova: Guardian Fighters are pretty much dps classes now. Thomas Foss: Being Fixed. I'm a tank and I like being a tank, but it's getting worked on.
But as per an unspoken, anointed, implicit telepathic secret edict from shadowy NW Dev Grandmasters: "Thou shall talketh about GWF dps balancing in the fora or anywhere. Just zippeth".
Comments
Jokes aside, even though powerlooping was "too strong", notice how that "too strong" thing made the class perfectly balanced with the rest. This essentially means that the class was just weak all along. It was too much in PvP and not enough in PvE.
You fixed that in M14.
Now you HAMSTER it up again in M15. It's sad.
A player empowers the character to bring him to the best of his ability ..
1) not everyone can do more than 100 million damage ..
2) usually, only the end game players can do that stratospheric damage ..
3) If your goal, is not to give the possibility, to do 100 million damage, what do you expect from an end game player?
4) Do you expect only 10 million damage? If that's what you expect ... for what purpose have we enhanced our characters?
5) I do not just talk about the thief, but all the classes ...
Besides being a dps I am also a devoted cleric and a paladin ... I am quite objective about things and I identify myself quite well even in the shoes of other classes.
So, that damage is given by a combination of players ("usually" end game) with the maximum possible buff, artifacts, abilities, powers, talents, etc. etc. and it's all enhanced to the maximum .. (and you have to have the right timing .. "something that is not easy")
well: this being said, the end game players will have the diminished and limited damage ... but to the lower level players what will happen? .. (I'm not talking about me, I'm endgame with my thief, my personal problem about this nerf is just the fear of not being invited to the groups for the low damage I'll produce) ... the lower players, the poor guys , will have to stay 30/40 minutes in castle never of which 15 minutes only to orcus? I'm just assuming, but the average is 20 minutes with a medium level group 10 / 12k gs ..
(Here is a simple question I would like to have an answer to ... Why do you need to nertify the characters, overwhelming the lives of the players, when instead you could produce more difficult content?)
Every few months is always the same story ... nerf here and there ... and people have to go through their period of frustration ... because to tell the truth ... let's be clear, this is one of the real frustrations of this play ... and it is not the divinity of the devoted cleric or the divine call of the paladin to be frustrating ... I have already said in a previous comment, that I will not complain about the reduction of my damage, but hearing the various thieves, who have the opportunity to test the damage on a PC, the situation does not seem to be the best ...
Thank you for giving an increase in basic power with an increase of 5%, I just hope it is enough to be competitive with other dps ... but not for being the first dps, I do not care to be, the first dps in the results ... I like it and I enjoy playing the dungeons because for me personally the dungeons are the best game experience of neverwinter,
I hope it's enough just to have a chance to be invited to the dungeon content groups.
Finally, given that they intend to tweak via modifying universal damage (probably on a table, right?), we've got a good amount of time to test and continue the OODA loop.
100 million damage in a single hit from a no GF-GWF character vs a boss is not where the gameplay is meant to be. As such, some dynamics were lessened to bring TRs into a more realistic place for outgoing damage.
....Is what he wanted to say. For that reason they always nerfs the classes when they can come near to GWF-GF damage.
However that don't change the fact that they're completely off with these nerfs.
Listening to feedback doesn't mean you implement all of the ideas. Or any of them. The devs ask for feedback and then arrange it, analyze it, then make their own decision.
Besides, why are you so sure that Cryptic devs are better at ideas than other people? That's not to say they are or aren't.
But there's no guarantee.
And I promise you, without feedback - without a feedback loop - any game, infrastructure construction, cars, planes, and space shuttles would never work. I highly suggest you understand the concept(s) of the feedback loop and the OODA loop (observe, orient, decide, and act). The OODA loop was developed by the military strategist who developed E&M theory of dogfighting, as well as taught to the Marines, pretty much copied down in the USMC War Manual. Then, and still, the OODA loop is 100% useful in the business field, too. That's exactly the complaint and nothing more.
You should realize that there is no consensual preference how we want things to be balanced.
Have you thought about why loopholes and "gaming the mechanics" are used? Because they were the only tools to make them UP to par. You know why everybody uses Shadow of Demise? Because that, on Live, is the only endgame-useful capstone.
Cryptic pigeonholes the class. Not the players. I play a damn Saboteur Whisperknife as my "main" loadout - and I can't complain because I'm the one who makes the idiotic choice to run around as a Sabo WK. Of course end-game will be different build (esp. with patch changes).
Do you blame the TRs for never playing WK? Do you blame either Fighter for never playing Iron Vanguard?
---
And the most ironic thing is that I actually do like some of what the dev said last reply, but whatever.
-Shadowborn-
There are some weird things about this feat:-If triggered by an AoE encounter, it only applies to 1 target (the random target that gets Shadow of Demise).
-If triggered a second time before the first Shadowborn ends, it resets the timer and refreshes the damage over time effect based on the new encounter that triggered it. In other words, it doesn't stack.
The old Shadowborn that increased the power rating by 100% was triggered by any DoT going on during stealth. Even reflected damage from boons triggered it. It was wasted by bleeds, smoke bomb ticks, etc.
Mod 14 Shadowborn (or 13.5, I don't remember exactly) is only triggered by encounters and dailies. Normally it is not wasted (unless you use smoke bomb and then enter stealth).
This new Mod 15 Shadowborn... if triggered by AoE, it is normally wasted on a trash mob. If there is a group of mobs and you try to hit the big one with a single target encounter... well, that is almost impossible. If you trigger it twice in 4.5 seconds in a boss fight, you lose some ticks from the first one (and the damage those ticks would add to Shadow of Demise). The added damage is a bit more than the old +100% power rating but it feels like wasted in almost all scenarios again (and somehow it is tied to Shadow of Demise).
IMO, it should apply to all targets hit and the added damage should be instant damage or stackable damage. It is ironic that Executioner has been the most played Rogue during years and almost no Executioner uses tier 5 feats in PvE. The current regular Rogue with Shadow of Demise, Smoke Bomb and ITC feels a Scoundrel rather than an Executioner. And I think an important reason for this current playing stile is the weird and somehow broken Shadowborn.
Overall, I like the changes. The 3 paths are balanced and there are more playing stiles now. And I agree about smoke bomb being a control power rather than a damaging power.
Best regards.
P.S. Edited cause I was wrong about it being multitarget in mod 14. My bad.
Tr's need 6s to deal the dmg that guy does(if played correctly) with 1 stack of griffon. Seriously? tr's need skill to deal more dmg than gwf/gf, yet you still nerfed it to the ground. I hope one day you fix gf's dps, it's not normal as you can see, and this video is not the only one, there are MANY gf's who can do that :< . I would like to see harder content, but if you want to make the actual conent harder, you should cut the dmg at every class, not only one. Guess the next meta will be worse with those balanced changes
So nerfing things down to what's going on with the TR isn't a good idea. That'll make every player of every class stop playing the game. You'll be like someone with the plague and run around trying to spread it to everyone. Balancing things. By killing things.
If they would take care of buffs like they did for debuffs, there would be a base to start with.
Every mod they ad some new silly stuff, multiplier on gear is a bad idea anyway.
From now on it's gonna be 30-40 min runs for like 2% chance to drop a UES with TR as main DPS.
Because if you don't listen to anyone, and you don't get criticism, then all you're doing is playing God with the development of the game. So much arrogance that your opinion is automatically great. Unquestionable faith in yourself and your team that it's like treating the development as a religion.
Pro-tip: The devs listening doesn't mean they have to agree with the feedback. They analyze the feedback, increase communication, and then at the end they are burdened with the final design and execution. So if you don't give the devs feedback, then the devs only get anxious, confused, running around like decapitated chickens not knowing whether or what to change or not change, buff or nerf, etc.
Because you know one of the shittiest things in life?
Trying to make a decision with absolutely no data.
---
As for NWN1/NWN2. I played on a "persistent world." For years. City of Arabel. But the Aurora Engine's intent, objective, tools, tiling, scripting, etc., etc. was meant to #1 Design and play D&D sessions in a visual and online manner with a small party and a DM. Clearly that didn't work out. The other main intent of the Aurora Engine was for making single player modules. And the official campaign was mostly a demo of Aurora's module creation system, as well as execs saying that you gotta have a story! And if you haven't played any of the single player modules, you've basically missed out on quite a few amateur modules that are better than most games, more choices and consequences, more options for roleplaying, etc. etc. etc..
Here's a list of some of the ones I played... IIRC..:
The Keep on the Borderlands
The Lord of Blight
Tortured Hearts
Tragedy in Tragidor
A Song of Ice and Fire - The Night's Watch
HAMSTER-kosigan-english-version">HAMSTER of Kosigan
Pool of Radiance
A Dance with Rogues
The Aielund Saga
Darkness over Daggerford
Honor Among Thieves
What I'm saying is that the whole idea of the "persistent world" is a HAMSTER loophole.
That doesn't mean they were bad - obviously if they were I wouldn't have played years on a PW. But PWs were never intended, servers weren't designed to hold more than one party and a DM (but thankfully they were able to. Unintentionally).
By the way, that NWN2 server? It's. Balanced. By. Players. Not professional developers. It was also created from scratch by players, tile by tile. And certain players on the team need to be online as DMs watching over things and/or taking over NPCs to, again, create from scratch some unique events.
Ironically, the good RPG devs like to post on the RPG forum I go to, communicate with us, ask for our feedback (and we are like the most vile gaming forum, but useful because smart but elitist as HAMSTER). By good RPG devs I mean:
Obsidian, who did NWN2. Specifically, Chris Avellone designed emoticons for us. Sawyer sometimes comes.
Bantering with Larian's Sven and David Walgrave, conversing about RPG design, making fun of Walgrave's time as a heavy metal vocalist.
At least one of the senior members/mods joined up with InXile.
Tim Cain. Well, a lot of guys from the now defunct Interplay's defunct Black Isle Studios.
So many of these people have designed, wrote, produced, or *created* games such as..
- Baldur's Gate 1 and its expansion, BG2 and its expansion
- Planescape: Torment
- Icewind Dale 1, 2, and HoW
- Lionheart (lol)
- Divine Divinity, Divinity 2, Divinity Original Sin, Divinity Original Sin 2
- Wasteland 2
- KOTOR2
- NWN2
- Alpha Protocol
- Fallout: New Vegas
- South Park: The Stick of Truth (lol Obsidian)
- Pillars of Eternity
- Arcanum
- Vampire the Masquerade; Bloodlines
- Temple of Elemental Evil
The way I see it, that's not better than the TR changes - it's simply less bad.
--
Though don't misunderstand me. I am still rather happy the devs' acknowledgement that the base mechanics, damage, etc. of the TR that are the real issue. Almost choked on my coffee.
And I agree very much. I am almost not just talking about the thief. Generally speaking, I'm not fond of nerfing any class to the at endgame, your "personal problem about this nerf is just the fear of not being invited to the groups for the low damage I'll produce" and that " just hope it is enough to be competitive with other dps ... but not for being the first dps, I do not care to be, the first dps in the results ... I like it and I enjoy playing the dungeons because for me personally the dungeons are the best game experience of neverwinter,
I hope it's enough just to have a chance to be invited to the dungeon content groups."
That is the essential, holistic criticism here. We want to be useful enough to be invited. How this is done really doesn't matter as long as it's successful, that TR (and other classes) are close enough that parties work with a much bigger variety of characters, classes, and builds.
blackstar, my friend, your English fine, it's very clear to read.
I just recorded several minutes ago.
Doing ELOL with random pugs.
Yeh i know, i was using Ioun stone comp. Im a pvp tr and didn't care much about my dps in pve. But look at the other TR tho, i bet it was a pve tr cuz i've never seen him in pvp, and he was second on paingiver board. Guess who is the first... Guardian Fighter... killing dragon within x sec
Maybe i should work harder on my tr... o wait, why bother. I mean... we are getting nerfed to the ground anyway.
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
In any case, right now, in a proper test environment TRs can beat GFs in DPS, given that the TRs are skilled (as they're big time skill cannons).
Go into a ToNG, get a GF and a TR, and give them same buffs. See who does more damage. Give the Bloody Death buff to a support.
Testing in a dungeon where the entire dungeon has less health than a T3 dungeon boss, is no bueno.
Maxed TR: Woohoo.. Yeaa!! 100M damage with 1 hit
Cryptic Dev: Hold on.. have to stop you there. This is not o~Kay !
Maxed TR: B..but the gf and the gwf also did 100M damage and they aren't maxed like me
Cryptic Dev: No excuses. You neither one of them. You are a TR and they are not.
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
Also, TRs I know do a "bit" more than 100m damage with SoD. Easily.
TR and GF are the only class that could even attempt to do smth like Orcus 1phase without a weapon enchant. However, TR is the only class that could do it at 15-16k.
It's yer fault if ya don't know how to PvE bud. But the TRs, GFs, GWFs and others I run with are evenly matched.
Of course, TRs are getting nerfed, which is HAMSTER' stupid, but right now, TRs rule. WoB+SB on AoE and everything is dead.
On single target, get the rotation down and you'll hit 150-200m SoDs, at BiS levels.
And no, I didn't meant skilled+maxed. One of the best TRs I know isn't even close to maxed.
Rogue - Setsuna F Seiei (XB1)
Rogue - Serenity (PS4)
Nova: Guardian Fighters are pretty much dps classes now.
Thomas Foss: Being Fixed. I'm a tank and I like being a tank, but it's getting worked on.
But as per an unspoken, anointed, implicit telepathic secret edict from shadowy NW Dev Grandmasters: "Thou shall talketh about GWF dps balancing in the fora or anywhere. Just zippeth".
https://youtube.com/watch?v=xixSfMTLvSU
Foss saying that he wants the tank to be a tank, yet he makes the DODC hit harder than a TR. Goooood joooooob.