I totally agree with putzboy78 because that's very close to how i envisioned the game would come to when they started with diminishing returns on debuffs. It only seemed logical they would address buff and power creep and that would start giving out results destroying the incessant need for so much supports. More options and places would open up for all classes to fill out roles they can bring personally. But the thing is i wouldn't stop with that, after buffs and power share being put in line, i would look to address the defensive aspects of support classes and the gross imbalance here.
The meta was mostly talked about from a damage pov but the reality is defensive aspects were also getting maxed out along with it and that made things so damn easy. Now after all this, when things are more challenging .. we can all as a community ask for rewards worthwhile and something of immense value like a coal ward weekly for a insane challenge like not a single death on the hardest content ( well they implemented this in a way of sorts with the upcoming mod, not the coal ward tho :P )
But what we have here is a sad parody and a vision trying to get the do dc fill up dps needs which i know will never happen, not at all with these ridiculous changes. How in the mighty beard's name are they going to ever do this for do's without affecting the ac's since they also have access to the same feat trees .. by playing around with TI forever ??? Anyways talking more about this stupidity is very tiring.. Moving on
Foresight , pls change the dr buff to a damage debuff meaning remove dr for reduction of incoming damage. Its not the same thing and the end result will be a paragon feat worthwhile slotting. With how foresight currently is , the dr buff might seem useful (if i could call it that) for newbies and completely irrelevant for end gamer's. i think it's 8+5 from feats, so 13% dr buff .. Well lets round that to a 15% reduction in incoming damage (10% reduction from the power and 5% from the feat tree). With this change the power becomes universally accepted as end gamers or tanks with maxed dr will also have some use from reduction in incoming damage. Pls lets rework this and make it something ppl may consider slotting.
Ouch...thouse nerfs to hastening light and the cooldown reducing portion of Avatar of the Divine...looks like 1. building a workable AC is about to get even more expensive 2. I´ll have to replace the remaining 2 Dark enchantments on my ACs companion with Silveries hoping to remain operational in dungeons. Meaning I´ll have to switch gear if I still want to be able to do solo content with that loadout...I so loved not having to T_T.
I don´t understand the nerf to empowered PoD, imo its further nerfing something that already wasn´t strong enough to use thouse three blue lights for.
Change this: Living Fire: Now triggers when you drop below 35% hit points (instead of 30%) Living Fire: Now lasts for 5 seconds after it was triggered, even if you are healed above 35%
To:
Living Fire: If you are hit for more than 30% of your Maximum Hit Points in a single blow, you deal 5/10/15/20/25% extra damage for 8 seconds.
So it would work similiar to Primal Weapons. If it would procc too often then damage buff could be lowered. Now it rarely procc (it's rare to have below 35% HP in dungeons I think. Or there is any data to prove me otherwise?)
Ouch...thouse nerfs to hastening light and the cooldown reducing portion of Avatar of the Divine...looks like 1. building a workable AC is about to get even more expensive 2. I´ll have to replace the remaining 2 Dark enchantments on my ACs companion with Silveries hoping to remain operational in dungeons. Meaning I´ll have to switch gear if I still want to be able to do solo content with that loadout...I so loved not having to T_T.
I don´t understand the nerf to empowered PoD, imo its further nerfing something that already wasn´t strong enough to use thouse three blue lights for.
Hastening light: If I am right it´s 3 sec reset down from 4 now.
Avatar was buffed, look precisely please ! It´s up infight about 50 sec out of 60 (depending on encounter spamming it´s up near 60 sec if you do good) plus a 50% dps damage increase from 40%.
50sec x +50% buff=2500, compared to 25 sec x +40% buff = 1000, 1000/2500 = Avatar is buffed for 60% over 60 sec. in the sum, wich is not 60% more dps but aproximately 20-30% +, it´s a significant buff honestly! Your personal Divintiy gain and cooldown speed is now 50secx 25% vs 20secx 40% = 1250 vs 800 = a 36% plus in terms of rechargespeed and Divinity gain over 60seconds! If you want it that way, more divinity and faster encounter = more encounter spamming = more AP gain = more dailies = more Hastening light.. that little nerf is not to mention vs all those buffs, right?
The capstone is that strong now, that I can´t tell how , if ever faithfull or virtous should be from any interest again... The overall dps increase for a dps focussed DC is like 20-30% from improved capstone, if you say an average bossfight last for at least 1 min (and that´s what bossfights do for almost 99% in this game), and if you put TI on top (downsize group dps), upgrade personale dps for 25%, you can sum it up to 45-55% + dps vs any other striker in this game, that´s not nothing tbh. Be happy and say "Thy devs you did good" instead of blow in the same trumpet all do here Devs you get near your goal to give DO DC a viable dps/buffer role, if not allready achieved that goal, we will see. The changes are not too bad at all if not a positive change for the game in general.
PoD seems to be a problem though, since it´s the debuff in demand inside groupplay but somehow that damage-proc get´s deleted by renewing the buff. Beside that your DO buffs x1.35 HG + x 1.1 from TI, 1.485 multiplier , wich is best from all buffer and easy to hold up, since "autobuffs" with a huge aoe more or less. A Hunter has to spamm one encounter all day long to hold up 1.4 multiplier, a warlock does curse x1.2 but has to set his green plate optimal to reach all groupmemeber and debuff boss on top, a CW, no clue proc from capstone, a GF ITF´s (taht´s what they do). PoD is now a 20% debuff, wich is strong for a damage encounter that theoretically deals higher ammounts of damage, if he was not deleted by himself somehow.
AS it is right now a DO-DC added to a group with AC-OP-dps-xy is a viable option, since he contributes the best and most constant dps-multiplier still from all other 2. or 3. degree buffer, deals significant more dps than before (if PoD is fixed) and is capable to spends huge mitigation-buffs on top, if need instead of dps. A flexible supporter better than most other in this game !
*And about those loller, get your tiny but on preview and check things yourself instead of crying 24/7 , the ammount of whiny scrubs is pretty high in forum, hard to achieve any progress for devs and for the game like that
I'm not sure how the "divinity smoothing" will work out. Avatar was buffed but you lost 12% divine power generation (which is canceled out if you slot fortune) and it went from multiplicative to additive (which is never a good thing).
There is no way I'll believe that DOs are near viable dps.
Just because the changes aren't as bad as they were doesn't make them good for DOs.
PoD shouldn't have been nerfed, it should have been buffed.
Not sure if this has been mentioned but I'll bring it up again. Is there any way that DC could get the same kind of non combat Divinity Generation that Paladins get for Divine Call? I made my first DC within a few days if the game's live launch and it us a long time annoyance. Mods 10, 11 and 12 made it worse with boats, stags and jump spells that all rob us of Divinity.
Also, I would like to raise my voice against the Brand of the Sun nerf regarding Divinity generation while Tabbed. The current way yhe power works is fine. This is an unneeded fix to a non-problem.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
12
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited September 2018
Please revert the change to brand of the sun and make it generate divinity while in divine mode. The only people complaining about this power functionality are bad players who cannot play properly as this is a flat out nerf to the power. Anyone who can time their rotations properly have no issues with this and benefit much more from having a trickle of divinity during divine mode, as you can cast 1 brand, 3 lances, use 2 divine powers and then a 3rd which will have generated from brand during your divine power animations. Changing this only slows down the divine oracle rotation.
I'm not sure how the "divinity smoothing" will work out. Avatar was buffed but you lost 12% divine power generation (which is canceled out if you slot fortune) and it went from multiplicative to additive (which is never a good thing).
There is no way I'll believe that DOs are near viable dps.
Just because the changes aren't as bad as they were doesn't make them good for DOs.
PoD shouldn't have been nerfed, it should have been buffed.
If you put the numbers together your DO-DC deals 45-55% more damage (60sec. fight) compared to mod 14 vs another striker from that buffed capstone 50% (near perma uptime) and TI buff +25% personal damage, even tough overall group-dps went down. Over 60 secons Divinity gain and rechargespeed is buffed for 30%+, since Avatar is up much longer. Meta-runs and speed kills are nerfed that way, overall performance for average setups, assuming your bossfight is not over in 20 seconds are buffed i think.
*Maybe someone can tell us how much a DO-DC spec at full dps-setup can deal at a boss-dummy (dps) in Chult (Preview), running: ePoD, DL, FF or dDG, DL, PoD 100% crit, groot, 3xarchon/siegemaster, tiger, feytouched or better uDreadenchant, 14 bonds, maxed companiongear, with Gravestriker +5 and +4, insigniaboni like assasins covenant, protectors camradie etc Shadowstalker 4+5, demoset, hagsrag+eyestaler and boots on top. dps boons as usual
I assume something arround 150-200k dps, maybe far more at maxed stats, right? Hard to tell anyway if 50% of Doom proc get´s canceled My low level DO is at about 80k dps, maybe better if Doom worked, and missing all of that stuff above: Fire of gods 1/5, no astral fury, buffed Critrate 70%, trans Plague, critseverity 77%, power unbuffed 35k, bonds 3x13, legendary con artist, purple no-dps-companion etc, really bad stuffed for dps in a whole. My soulbinder is at somthing about 300k dps at max. dps setup, far better stats rank 14 bonds and ench, 5 legend mount etc. At optimised dps spec, my DO is at 130k dps with buffergear on boss dummy. So near half of what my almost maxed Soulbinder is capable of, sure buffs are applied. My Templock at full-dps gear (orcusset) deals 100k dps , due to rotation and encounter setup. (Combat advantage 24/7up compared to DO-DC-> some should know what that means)
Listen carefully: My templock (near maxed dps gear, Combat advantage 24/7) deals less dps than that low level DO-DC (no CA and underwhelming trashgear for dps) and applies worse buffs on top, so what about balance? @balanced#2849
Not sure if this has been mentioned but I'll bring it up again. Is there any way that DC could get the same kind of non combat Divinity Generation that Paladins get for Divine Call? I made my first DC within a few days if the game's live launch and it us a long time annoyance. Mods 10, 11 and 12 made it worse with boats, stags and jump spells that all rob us of Divinity.
Also, I would like to raise my voice against the Brand of the Sun nerf regarding Divinity generation while Tabbed. The current way yhe power works is fine. This is an unneeded fix to a non-problem.
Storing up 3 devine Symbols, they might get consumed when out of fight and refill your devinity bar to prevent them from running of. You are able to cast devine encounter at the start of a fight more frequently I´d say, but may lose those stacked symbols (in case they did not vanish anyway)
Let's just leave it at we have a different direction in mind for viable dps. Mine isn't being able to out dps the top healer.
They really need to take a look at diminishing returns on power (OP and AC) & buffs to prevent this from being a never ending cycle. To flesh out the DO they need to confine the changes to TI and Doom to prevent leakage to ACs who are already over the top with AA.
Yeah, stopping Divinity gain from Brand of the Sun in Divine mode is a flat out nerf. Please reconsider this. It is really useful and makes divinity use much smoother once you get used to it. The only people I've ever seen complain about it are people who don't even really play DO, they are just dabbling in it.
Let's just leave it at we have a different direction in mind for viable dps. Mine isn't being able to out dps the top healer.
Yeah, I´d leave it at: "A DO-DC in mod 15 contributes a big bunch of dps and buffs, if propper build, and is capable to out-dps other 2. degree buffer/hybrid in mod 15 with ease, since he got significant buffs from capstone and TI -> 45-55%+ dps compared to other dps classes." By that I really hope, some will calm down and get somehow a bit relaxed about the needed and to some degree well thought changes for the sake of balance and for the sake of progress and needed finetuning... and hopefully I gonna read less buthurting calls like: "lfm eToS need DC-DC-OP and ultra hdps, pm me , fast run" in mod 15 I am sure that 95% of the DC in here did not even try to check dps at all, but simply state "it is no option". Maybe it is an option in case you don´t want to run AC, and maybe the paragon can be pushed in that direction.
> @lantern22 said: > Here's an idea, lets just get rid of all the extra paragons, powers, and feat trees. They obviously don't have the resources to maintain them and most are a waste of effort. It would save loads of development hours and make balancing much easier. > > It is pretty much this for many of the classes. And I wouldn't blame them, that's a lot of juggling to balance things out. Id rather see some content changes, perhaps a new spell or two etc.
This right here, after all these mods new spells would be mindblowing!
> @bigdaddymarkus#0885 said: > The real problem all started when gwf got buffed a few mods ago. They didn't buff the other dps to keep in stride. So it made more sense to fill in a dps slot with a second DC. Because the buffs with two dcs on the gwf far out weighed that one dps. It seems more of trying to fix a symptom not the problem. Which has been not balancing the dps correctly. Letting one class (gwf) get to strong that it has become a must pick and not taking care of others of that kind. Funny they did this for the dodc but not the gwf. But all in all with out some real numbers to put against we don't know how much of a loss dos got with this. Because 10% debuff vs. 20% more dmg really needs real numbers to know the extent of this change. > This right her , the gwf worship is out of control. I know the devs are obsessed and always want gwf to be top dps but come on..
I'm surprised at the recurring resistance to DO DPS capability. I always thought that DPS DO should be the default end-game build since there is little benefit in doubling down on Power and Recovery to the exclusion of other stats like an end-game AC typically does, but apparently a lot of DOs are out there doing no damage despite the tools available to them. 300-500+ mil (a variance that depends largely on yes/no DPS GF and yes/no end-game HDPS) as a buffer in an average, clean tong run isn't a bad starting point, and I can easily see numbers climbing higher with the proposed changes. My main concern at this point is the nerfing of DO Divinity gain by disabling the ticking Divinity from BotS while in Divine mode.
I would be happy to test DPS on preview with my DO, but I need to relearn ACT first. It causes performance issues for me, so I gave it up some time ago.
I'm surprised at the recurring resistance to DO DPS capability. I always thought that DPS DO should be the default end-game build since there is little benefit in doubling down on Power and Recovery to the exclusion of other stats like an end-game AC typically does, but apparently a lot of DOs are out there doing no damage despite the tools available to them. 300-500+ mil (a variance that depends largely on yes/no DPS GF and yes/no end-game HDPS) as a buffer in an average, clean tong run isn't a bad starting point, and I can easily see numbers climbing higher with the proposed changes. My main concern at this point is the nerfing of DO Divinity gain by disabling the ticking Divinity from BotS while in Divine mode.
I would be happy to test DPS on preview with my DO, but I need to relearn ACT first. It causes performance issues for me, so I gave it up some time ago.
I don' tknow about on pc but on xbox if you use any dps powers (except for in instances where it becomes obvs that your dps bites.) they'll basically kick you if you sub out anything for a dps power. the one exception is codg. where using one dps power is not too frowned upon if they don't notice you're doing it lol . I'm ok with it. seems like 99 percent of the time it's really not necessary to have any dps from the do at all anyway. I'm usually in 17k runs though.
1) please revert Brand of the Sun divinity generation while in divine mode. In fact, if a player is not automatically switched back to normal mode after its 3 encounters, due to some divinity left, that player can just hit tab once again to switch back to normal mode. I mean, it's simply part of the player intelligence to know when to cast it, and if there is divinity left, to switch back to normal.
2) I think the only solution, as already proposed, to break the 2-DC meta, is to make 2 DC mutually exclusive. This seems indeed the fairest solution, while not crushing a complete path, or still let the possibility for 2-DC groups.
3) @noworries would you be interested in a summary post with all the feats/powers that DC community want to be changed?
I'm surprised at the recurring resistance to DO DPS capability. I always thought that DPS DO should be the default end-game build since there is little benefit in doubling down on Power and Recovery to the exclusion of other stats like an end-game AC typically does, but apparently a lot of DOs are out there doing no damage despite the tools available to them. 300-500+ mil (a variance that depends largely on yes/no DPS GF and yes/no end-game HDPS) as a buffer in an average, clean tong run isn't a bad starting point, and I can easily see numbers climbing higher with the proposed changes. My main concern at this point is the nerfing of DO Divinity gain by disabling the ticking Divinity from BotS while in Divine mode.
I would be happy to test DPS on preview with my DO, but I need to relearn ACT first. It causes performance issues for me, so I gave it up some time ago.
I don' tknow about on pc but on xbox if you use any dps powers (except for in instances where it becomes obvs that your dps bites.) they'll basically kick you if you sub out anything for a dps power. the one exception is codg. where using one dps power is not too frowned upon if they don't notice you're doing it lol . I'm ok with it. seems like 99 percent of the time it's really not necessary to have any dps from the do at all anyway. I'm usually in 17k runs though.
Well depends on what u define as dps and non dps Powers. Ofc the dodc shouldnt swap out BTS or PoD but what i often see is that if you alrdy have an AC the DoDCs go BTS/PoD/Daunting light which isnt that bad for singletarget tbh.
I'm guessing that a substantial part of the pushback against DPS is the fact that many people chose DC because they want to play a support class, not a DPS. That and the fact that currently DO support builds have no real gear progression led me to swap from DO to AC at the beginning of the year. If at some point, DCs were pushed into building for DPS I would retire mine.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Brand of the Sun: "This power will no longer generate Divine Power while the player is in Divine Mode, this should fix an "issue" where players would sometimes not leave Divine Mode after casting all 3 divine encounter powers"
How is this an issue? You don't leave Divine Mode because you have unspent power. Just press TAB.
> @thefiresidecat said: > I'm surprised at the recurring resistance to DO DPS capability. I always thought that DPS DO should be the default end-game build since there is little benefit in doubling down on Power and Recovery to the exclusion of other stats like an end-game AC typically does, but apparently a lot of DOs are out there doing no damage despite the tools available to them. 300-500+ mil (a variance that depends largely on yes/no DPS GF and yes/no end-game HDPS) as a buffer in an average, clean tong run isn't a bad starting point, and I can easily see numbers climbing higher with the proposed changes. My main concern at this point is the nerfing of DO Divinity gain by disabling the ticking Divinity from BotS while in Divine mode. > > I would be happy to test DPS on preview with my DO, but I need to relearn ACT first. It causes performance issues for me, so I gave it up some time ago. > > > I don' tknow about on pc but on xbox if you use any dps powers (except for in instances where it becomes obvs that your dps bites.) they'll basically kick you if you sub out anything for a dps power. the one exception is codg. where using one dps power is not too frowned upon if they don't notice you're doing it lol . I'm ok with it. seems like 99 percent of the time it's really not necessary to have any dps from the do at all anyway. I'm usually in 17k runs though.
Trash = Chains Boss = PoD Buff = BtS Other = DG if solo DC DL if 2x DC
That’s my support loadout, and every power contributes damage and adds healing through Repurpose Soul. Astral Shield and Bastion are almost always unnecessary in end-game parties; I only run dedicated defense and healing if bothering to do CR and the party is otherwise lacking sufficient healing and mitigation to reliably handle bats.
& > I don' tknow about on pc but on xbox if you use any dps powers (except for in instances where it becomes obvs that your dps bites.) they'll basically kick you if you sub out anything for a dps power. the one exception is codg. where using one dps power is not too frowned upon if they don't notice you're doing it lol . I'm ok with it. seems like 99 percent of the time it's really not necessary to have any dps from the do at all anyway. I'm usually in 17k runs though.
Trash = Chains
Boss = PoD
Buff = BtS
Other = DG if solo DC
DL if 2x DC
That’s my support loadout, and every power contributes damage and adds healing through Repurpose Soul. Astral Shield and Bastion are almost always unnecessary in end-game parties; I only run dedicated defense and healing if bothering to do CR and the party is otherwise lacking sufficient healing and mitigation to reliably handle bats.
I never bother turning off PoD even on trash. Either there's a bigger mob that will live long enough for PoD to proc and that lets me spam more Dailies and more Hastens, or all the mobs will die so fast that there's no time for PoD so I don't actually care about not getting a full encounter rotation on those mobs.
My objection to using DL and Chains myself is that while they do damage and healing, damage and healing are not really relevant things that I care much about doing while I'm the DC on a TONG run. So I tend to just sit on PoD/BtS/DG forever. The only time I really change those up is when I'm doing an event: When downlevelled to 60, NOTHING lives long enough for PoD, so I just put Chains in instead.
I'm surprised at the recurring resistance to DO DPS capability. I always thought that DPS DO should be the default end-game build since there is little benefit in doubling down on Power and Recovery to the exclusion of other stats like an end-game AC typically does, but apparently a lot of DOs are out there doing no damage despite the tools available to them. 300-500+ mil (a variance that depends largely on yes/no DPS GF and yes/no end-game HDPS) as a buffer in an average, clean tong run isn't a bad starting point, and I can easily see numbers climbing higher with the proposed changes. My main concern at this point is the nerfing of DO Divinity gain by disabling the ticking Divinity from BotS while in Divine mode.
I would be happy to test DPS on preview with my DO, but I need to relearn ACT first. It causes performance issues for me, so I gave it up some time ago.
About divinity gain I can only say , as long as you run Devine Fortune you won´t run out of Divinity, as long as you reapply BotS the moment you casted your 3 devine encounter. BotS is a significant drop, but possible to copensate imo. There is not much to slot anyway, except maybe Hastening light, wich is much worse on DO DC. You can aslo skip 15 points in reightous and spend into gift of gods, in case you run with an AC DC most of the time anyway.
About dps increase comparing Preview and Live like now, it´s about +50%dps at same stats encounter etc.
@balanced#2849 can you maybe check PoD ? If PoD is the go for in mod 15, concerning group shared debuffs, you should prevent that proc being delelted, 50% of all procs on ACt state: "Trigger complex no damage" since the power was reapplied before it run of. You can make PoD-prc trigger in case of a renewed debuff ?
Post edited by schietindebux on
1
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
As someone who plays a near bis DO and AC (and strongly favours DO) I think these changes were necessary for the health of the game, even if they are not nice to deal with. The only 2 things I would explicitly change is the BtS buff going to FF, since BtS is already very strong and the change to divinity generation.
& > I don' tknow about on pc but on xbox if you use any dps powers (except for in instances where it becomes obvs that your dps bites.) they'll basically kick you if you sub out anything for a dps power. the one exception is codg. where using one dps power is not too frowned upon if they don't notice you're doing it lol . I'm ok with it. seems like 99 percent of the time it's really not necessary to have any dps from the do at all anyway. I'm usually in 17k runs though.
Trash = Chains
Boss = PoD
Buff = BtS
Other = DG if solo DC
DL if 2x DC
That’s my support loadout, and every power contributes damage and adds healing through Repurpose Soul. Astral Shield and Bastion are almost always unnecessary in end-game parties; I only run dedicated defense and healing if bothering to do CR and the party is otherwise lacking sufficient healing and mitigation to reliably handle bats.
I never bother turning off PoD even on trash. Either there's a bigger mob that will live long enough for PoD to proc and that lets me spam more Dailies and more Hastens, or all the mobs will die so fast that there's no time for PoD so I don't actually care about not getting a full encounter rotation on those mobs.
My objection to using DL and Chains myself is that while they do damage and healing, damage and healing are not really relevant things that I care much about doing while I'm the DC on a TONG run. So I tend to just sit on PoD/BtS/DG forever. The only time I really change those up is when I'm doing an event: When downlevelled to 60, NOTHING lives long enough for PoD, so I just put Chains in instead.
Personally I find PoD to be gross on trash. Even elite trash tends to die so quickly that it can defeat the purpose of PoD (you've probably noticed that PoD fails to generate action points upon death if the mob dies within a couple of seconds of having applied the encounter). Even when it works as intended, the added AP gain on top of the ridiculous amount we already have doesn't seem to me to make any meaningful difference in the run. When some trash encounters are over or nearly done by the time the casting animation of Hallowed Ground is concluded, you know you don't need any more AP for that section.
If you're able to indulge in the playstyle you enjoy, that's truthfully just fine. I just find in my experience that the extra damage, even from clearing trash, helps to make for a faster and smoother run.
@noworries#8859 Some QoL improvement for DO before I forget: 1. Improve empowerment registration setting: - Due to the empowerment registration setting, the encounter that consume empowerment may be the previous or next encounter casted but not the one you cast with stacks of empowerment. - Eg1. You cast Daunting Light with 3 stacks of empowerment then cast Forgemaster's Flame, FF gets empowered instead. - Eg2. You cast Chains on floor, then build up stacks of empowerment and cast any encounter, meanwhile during your animation someone stepped on Chains, your empowerment is consumed by chains but not the encounter you are casting. - Solution 1: Make the empowerment system consume stacks of empowerment on encounter cast instead of on encounter hit. - Solution 2: Improve Daunting Light animation time. 2. Fix the buggy Hammer of Fate: - I have to say this daily is actually OK in theory, the damage portion is average BUT what make this power obselete is the lost of damage against target out of vision and out of range during the animation + buggy cc-immune + unneccessary root for 3 seconds, making this daily useless. - Eg. At maximum range you cast this daily, your AP is spent but if your target dodge out of range or to hide behind pillars even before you shoot our your first hammer, you will be rooted for 3 seconds performing the whole animation without dealing any damage or effect, aka easy dummy for others to kill you. - Buggy cc-immune: The cc-immune works half of the time I can say but in many cases although I already cast HoF and my AP is consumed, I will still be knocked back, dazed, prone etc like I have no cc-immune, especially when I just casted HoF.
- Comparing with other classes single target paragon specific daily such as TR's Shocking Execution, Hammer of Fate is really junk.
Solution: -- Instead of 3 Hammers flying across 3 seconds, combine them into 1 hammer with faster travelling speed and damage. -- Cast and forget: When you cast HoF, there will be an illusion of you casting hammers for you while you can move around dpsing or dodging, no more rooting as free kills for TR and GF. -- Stop consuming your AP if target is out of range/vision. Other daily will stop casting and will not consume AP if their target is out of range, I dont know why HoF is an exception.
3. Guardian of Faith damage: - It is the time to revise the damage of this single target daily, even at rank 4 my encounter at rank 1 still hits harder than this daily.
4. Revert the changes to BotS divinity gain - We have Tab for it, with the nerf it will slow most DO divinity gain even with avatar divinity gain buff. The overflow divinity is NEVER an issue for us. Kindly revert back to the live state ty.
@noworries#8859 Some QoL improvement for DO before I forget: 1. Improve empowerment registration setting: - Due to the empowerment registration setting, the encounter that consume empowerment may be the previous or next encounter casted but not the one you cast with stacks of empowerment. - Eg1. You cast Daunting Light with 3 stacks of empowerment then cast Forgemaster's Flame, FF gets empowered instead. - Eg2. You cast Chains on floor, then build up stacks of empowerment and cast any encounter, meanwhile during your animation someone stepped on Chains, your empowerment is consumed by chains but not the encounter you are casting. - Solution 1: Make the empowerment system consume stacks of empowerment on encounter cast instead of on encounter hit. - Solution 2: Improve Daunting Light animation time. 2. Fix the buggy Hammer of Fate: - I have to say this daily is actually OK in theory, the damage portion is average BUT what make this power obselete is the lost of damage against target out of vision and out of range during the animation + buggy cc-immune + unneccessary root for 3 seconds, making this daily useless. - Eg. At maximum range you cast this daily, your AP is spent but if your target dodge out of range or to hide behind pillars even before you shoot our your first hammer, you will be rooted for 3 seconds performing the whole animation without dealing any damage or effect, aka easy dummy for others to kill you. - Buggy cc-immune: The cc-immune works half of the time I can say but in many cases although I already cast HoF and my AP is consumed, I will still be knocked back, dazed, prone etc like I have no cc-immune, especially when I just casted HoF.
- Comparing with other classes single target paragon specific daily such as TR's Shocking Execution, Hammer of Fate is really junk.
Solution: -- Instead of 3 Hammers flying across 3 seconds, combine them into 1 hammer with faster travelling speed and damage. -- Cast and forget: When you cast HoF, there will be an illusion of you casting hammers for you while you can move around dpsing or dodging, no more rooting as free kills for TR and GF. -- Stop consuming your AP if target is out of range/vision. Other daily will stop casting and will not consume AP if their target is out of range, I dont know why HoF is an exception.
3. Guardian of Faith damage: - It is the time to revise the damage of this single target daily, even at rank 4 my encounter at rank 1 still hits harder than this daily.
4. Revert the changes to BotS divinity gain - We have Tab for it, with the nerf it will slow most DO divinity gain even with avatar divinity gain buff. The overflow divinity is NEVER an issue for us. Kindly revert back to the live state ty.
I love these suggestions, and I want to echo especially the parts where...
- Daunting Light's casting delay is a relic of old game design.
- Hammer of Fate is another relic that has needed fixing since the beginning. The defensive benefits are largely a joke when the power causes you to root yourself and be unable to act otherwise for the lengthy casting duration unless you voluntarily break it and forego the rest of the spell. Besides, an increasing number of enemies even in PvE have methods of CC that bypass HoF's blanket immunity.
- This proposed "fix" to Divinity gain from BotS while in Divine mode needs to be reverted. Seriously.
I spent some more time with the Divinity changes on Preview as DO, just in case I had missed something.
I don't think I missed anything; they're still not in any way good or desirable.
Even with the supposed (is it working?) Divinity gain bonus from the Avatar of the Divine capstone, I'm generating noticeably less Divinity with the same builds and the same rotations. It seems like Avatar of the Divine is barely helping me break even with the loss suffered by making the Divinity generation formula additive, and then being unable to generate Divinity from Brand of the Sun while in Divine mode is making it much worse.
The premise of trying to smooth out Divinity gain and make the process more consistent sounds pleasant on paper, but in practice it's a significant nerf for anyone who already knew how to play DO.
If you have everything that now increases divinity, you should actually end up seeing a very small net-gain (though, this includes having Avatar of the Divine active).
While I am a firm believer in Avatar of the Divine being the only viable PvE capstone in 99% of situations, I'm not sure why we're doubling down on this and even further discouraging build diversity by effectively gimping Divinity gain for Faithful and Virtuous specs.
But again, no. Not seeing any noticeable net gain whatsoever; instead it's a noticeable net loss when you factor in the BotS nerf.
Please consider restoring multiplicative Divinity gain and reverting the change to BotS Divinity generation. Players are intelligent enough to tweak their feats and features to find their own optimal and most efficient Divinity rotations.
I spent some more time with the Divinity changes on Preview as DO, just in case I had missed something.
I don't think I missed anything; they're still not in any way good or desirable.
That's almost always the case going from multiplicative to additive. I was surprised more people didn't question that.
Did you get a chance to test out the dps? Not only am I curious what type of personal change you see but how you fair in a decent group. I think most people (sans fanbois) have tempered their exceptions of any meaningful dps increase. I'm guessing insignificant multiplied by this small buff will still be insignificant and that's without any divinity change.
I spent some more time with the Divinity changes on Preview as DO, just in case I had missed something.
I don't think I missed anything; they're still not in any way good or desirable.
That's almost always the case going from multiplicative to additive. I was surprised more people didn't question that.
Did you get a chance to test out the dps? Not only am I curious what type of personal change you see but how you fair in a decent group. I think most people (sans fanbois) have tempered their exceptions of any meaningful dps increase. I'm guessing insignificant multiplied by this small buff will still be insignificant and that's without any divinity change.
I finally got around to updating ACT, but I haven't had the opportunity to try anything organized on Preview yet. My usual informal test without a group is to solo CN up to Orcus since it's an easy and familiar dungeon full of walking target dummies, and I know what my clear time should be on live for each my characters, but the first area in the dungeon proper is bugged on Preview so that the encounter doesn't progress once the undead are cleared.
I may have to wait until everything hits live to get a real feel for how the DPS tweaks to DO work in a real, buffed party, but maybe one of the folks around here who form groups on Preview and (hopefully) run a DPS-focused DO build can give us an idea.
Whether 2 DC are still meta for mod 14 can be debated and certainly any dungeon can be done without 2 DC. No argument there. I was replying to the person who said they don't understand why Cryptic hates 2 DC. My point was to answer him, because the answer to his question should be obvious.
Comments
The meta was mostly talked about from a damage pov but the reality is defensive aspects were also getting maxed out along with it and that made things so damn easy. Now after all this, when things are more challenging .. we can all as a community ask for rewards worthwhile and something of immense value like a coal ward weekly for a insane challenge like not a single death on the hardest content ( well they implemented this in a way of sorts with the upcoming mod, not the coal ward tho :P )
But what we have here is a sad parody and a vision trying to get the do dc fill up dps needs which i know will never happen, not at all with these ridiculous changes. How in the mighty beard's name are they going to ever do this for do's without affecting the ac's since they also have access to the same feat trees .. by playing around with TI forever ??? Anyways talking more about this stupidity is very tiring.. Moving on
Foresight , pls change the dr buff to a damage debuff meaning remove dr for reduction of incoming damage. Its not the same thing and the end result will be a paragon feat worthwhile slotting. With how foresight currently is , the dr buff might seem useful (if i could call it that) for newbies and completely irrelevant for end gamer's. i think it's 8+5 from feats, so 13% dr buff .. Well lets round that to a 15% reduction in incoming damage (10% reduction from the power and 5% from the feat tree). With this change the power becomes universally accepted as end gamers or tanks with maxed dr will also have some use from reduction in incoming damage. Pls lets rework this and make it something ppl may consider slotting.
1. building a workable AC is about to get even more expensive
2. I´ll have to replace the remaining 2 Dark enchantments on my ACs companion with Silveries hoping to remain operational in dungeons. Meaning I´ll have to switch gear if I still want to be able to do solo content with that loadout...I so loved not having to T_T.
I don´t understand the nerf to empowered PoD, imo its further nerfing something that already wasn´t strong enough to use thouse three blue lights for.
Change this:
Living Fire: Now triggers when you drop below 35% hit points (instead of 30%)
Living Fire: Now lasts for 5 seconds after it was triggered, even if you are healed above 35%
To:
Living Fire: If you are hit for more than 30% of your Maximum Hit Points in a single blow, you deal 5/10/15/20/25% extra damage for 8 seconds.
So it would work similiar to Primal Weapons. If it would procc too often then damage buff could be lowered. Now it rarely procc (it's rare to have below 35% HP in dungeons I think. Or there is any data to prove me otherwise?)
Avatar was buffed, look precisely please ! It´s up infight about 50 sec out of 60 (depending on encounter spamming it´s up near 60 sec if you do good) plus a 50% dps damage increase from 40%.
50sec x +50% buff=2500, compared to 25 sec x +40% buff = 1000, 1000/2500 =
Avatar is buffed for 60% over 60 sec. in the sum, wich is not 60% more dps but aproximately 20-30% +, it´s a significant buff honestly!
Your personal Divintiy gain and cooldown speed is now 50secx 25% vs 20secx 40% = 1250 vs 800 =
a 36% plus in terms of rechargespeed and Divinity gain over 60seconds!
If you want it that way, more divinity and faster encounter = more encounter spamming = more AP gain = more dailies = more Hastening light.. that little nerf is not to mention vs all those buffs, right?
The capstone is that strong now, that I can´t tell how , if ever faithfull or virtous should be from any interest again...
The overall dps increase for a dps focussed DC is like 20-30% from improved capstone, if you say an average bossfight last for at least 1 min (and that´s what bossfights do for almost 99% in this game), and if you put TI on top (downsize group dps), upgrade personale dps for 25%, you can sum it up to 45-55% + dps vs any other striker in this game, that´s not nothing tbh.
Be happy and say "Thy devs you did good" instead of blow in the same trumpet all do here
Devs you get near your goal to give DO DC a viable dps/buffer role, if not allready achieved that goal, we will see.
The changes are not too bad at all if not a positive change for the game in general.
PoD seems to be a problem though, since it´s the debuff in demand inside groupplay but somehow that damage-proc get´s deleted by renewing the buff.
Beside that your DO buffs x1.35 HG + x 1.1 from TI, 1.485 multiplier , wich is best from all buffer and easy to hold up, since "autobuffs" with a huge aoe more or less.
A Hunter has to spamm one encounter all day long to hold up 1.4 multiplier, a warlock does curse x1.2 but has to set his green plate optimal to reach all groupmemeber and debuff boss on top, a CW, no clue proc from capstone, a GF ITF´s (taht´s what they do).
PoD is now a 20% debuff, wich is strong for a damage encounter that theoretically deals higher ammounts of damage, if he was not deleted by himself somehow.
AS it is right now a DO-DC added to a group with AC-OP-dps-xy is a viable option, since he contributes the best and most constant dps-multiplier still from all other 2. or 3. degree buffer, deals significant more dps than before (if PoD is fixed) and is capable to spends huge mitigation-buffs on top, if need instead of dps. A flexible supporter better than most other in this game !
*And about those loller, get your tiny but on preview and check things yourself instead of crying 24/7 , the ammount of whiny scrubs is pretty high in forum, hard to achieve any progress for devs and for the game like that
There is no way I'll believe that DOs are near viable dps.
Just because the changes aren't as bad as they were doesn't make them good for DOs.
PoD shouldn't have been nerfed, it should have been buffed.
Also, I would like to raise my voice against the Brand of the Sun nerf regarding Divinity generation while Tabbed. The current way yhe power works is fine. This is an unneeded fix to a non-problem.
Over 60 secons Divinity gain and rechargespeed is buffed for 30%+, since Avatar is up much longer.
Meta-runs and speed kills are nerfed that way, overall performance for average setups, assuming your bossfight is not over in 20 seconds are buffed i think.
*Maybe someone can tell us how much a DO-DC spec at full dps-setup can deal at a boss-dummy (dps) in Chult (Preview), running:
ePoD, DL, FF or dDG, DL, PoD
100% crit,
groot, 3xarchon/siegemaster, tiger,
feytouched or better uDreadenchant,
14 bonds, maxed companiongear, with Gravestriker +5 and +4,
insigniaboni like assasins covenant, protectors camradie etc
Shadowstalker 4+5, demoset, hagsrag+eyestaler and boots on top.
dps boons as usual
I assume something arround 150-200k dps, maybe far more at maxed stats, right?
Hard to tell anyway if 50% of Doom proc get´s canceled
My low level DO is at about 80k dps, maybe better if Doom worked, and missing all of that stuff above: Fire of gods 1/5, no astral fury, buffed Critrate 70%, trans Plague, critseverity 77%, power unbuffed 35k, bonds 3x13, legendary con artist, purple no-dps-companion etc, really bad stuffed for dps in a whole.
My soulbinder is at somthing about 300k dps at max. dps setup, far better stats rank 14 bonds and ench, 5 legend mount etc.
At optimised dps spec, my DO is at 130k dps with buffergear on boss dummy. So near half of what my almost maxed Soulbinder is capable of, sure buffs are applied.
My Templock at full-dps gear (orcusset) deals 100k dps , due to rotation and encounter setup.
(Combat advantage 24/7up compared to DO-DC-> some should know what that means)
Listen carefully: My templock (near maxed dps gear, Combat advantage 24/7) deals less dps than that low level DO-DC (no CA and underwhelming trashgear for dps) and applies worse buffs on top, so what about balance? @balanced#2849 Storing up 3 devine Symbols, they might get consumed when out of fight and refill your devinity bar to prevent them from running of.
You are able to cast devine encounter at the start of a fight more frequently I´d say, but may lose those stacked symbols (in case they did not vanish anyway)
They really need to take a look at diminishing returns on power (OP and AC) & buffs to prevent this from being a never ending cycle. To flesh out the DO they need to confine the changes to TI and Doom to prevent leakage to ACs who are already over the top with AA.
"A DO-DC in mod 15 contributes a big bunch of dps and buffs, if propper build, and is capable to out-dps other 2. degree buffer/hybrid in mod 15 with ease, since he got significant buffs from capstone and TI -> 45-55%+ dps compared to other dps classes."
By that I really hope, some will calm down and get somehow a bit relaxed about the needed and to some degree well thought changes for the sake of balance and for the sake of progress and needed finetuning... and hopefully I gonna read less buthurting calls like: "lfm eToS need DC-DC-OP and ultra hdps, pm me , fast run" in mod 15
I am sure that 95% of the DC in here did not even try to check dps at all, but simply state "it is no option".
Maybe it is an option in case you don´t want to run AC, and maybe the paragon can be pushed in that direction.
> Here's an idea, lets just get rid of all the extra paragons, powers, and feat trees. They obviously don't have the resources to maintain them and most are a waste of effort. It would save loads of development hours and make balancing much easier.
>
> It is pretty much this for many of the classes. And I wouldn't blame them, that's a lot of juggling to balance things out. Id rather see some content changes, perhaps a new spell or two etc.
This right here, after all these mods new spells would be mindblowing!
> The real problem all started when gwf got buffed a few mods ago. They didn't buff the other dps to keep in stride. So it made more sense to fill in a dps slot with a second DC. Because the buffs with two dcs on the gwf far out weighed that one dps. It seems more of trying to fix a symptom not the problem. Which has been not balancing the dps correctly. Letting one class (gwf) get to strong that it has become a must pick and not taking care of others of that kind. Funny they did this for the dodc but not the gwf. But all in all with out some real numbers to put against we don't know how much of a loss dos got with this. Because 10% debuff vs. 20% more dmg really needs real numbers to know the extent of this change.
>
This right her , the gwf worship is out of control. I know the devs are obsessed and always want gwf to be top dps but come on..
I would be happy to test DPS on preview with my DO, but I need to relearn ACT first. It causes performance issues for me, so I gave it up some time ago.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
2) I think the only solution, as already proposed, to break the 2-DC meta, is to make 2 DC mutually exclusive. This seems indeed the fairest solution, while not crushing a complete path, or still let the possibility for 2-DC groups.
3) @noworries would you be interested in a summary post with all the feats/powers that DC community want to be changed?
thanks for your consideration,
How is this an issue? You don't leave Divine Mode because you have unspent power. Just press TAB.
> I'm surprised at the recurring resistance to DO DPS capability. I always thought that DPS DO should be the default end-game build since there is little benefit in doubling down on Power and Recovery to the exclusion of other stats like an end-game AC typically does, but apparently a lot of DOs are out there doing no damage despite the tools available to them. 300-500+ mil (a variance that depends largely on yes/no DPS GF and yes/no end-game HDPS) as a buffer in an average, clean tong run isn't a bad starting point, and I can easily see numbers climbing higher with the proposed changes. My main concern at this point is the nerfing of DO Divinity gain by disabling the ticking Divinity from BotS while in Divine mode.
>
> I would be happy to test DPS on preview with my DO, but I need to relearn ACT first. It causes performance issues for me, so I gave it up some time ago.
>
>
> I don' tknow about on pc but on xbox if you use any dps powers (except for in instances where it becomes obvs that your dps bites.) they'll basically kick you if you sub out anything for a dps power. the one exception is codg. where using one dps power is not too frowned upon if they don't notice you're doing it lol . I'm ok with it. seems like 99 percent of the time it's really not necessary to have any dps from the do at all anyway. I'm usually in 17k runs though.
Trash = Chains
Boss = PoD
Buff = BtS
Other = DG if solo DC
DL if 2x DC
That’s my support loadout, and every power contributes damage and adds healing through Repurpose Soul. Astral Shield and Bastion are almost always unnecessary in end-game parties; I only run dedicated defense and healing if bothering to do CR and the party is otherwise lacking sufficient healing and mitigation to reliably handle bats.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
My objection to using DL and Chains myself is that while they do damage and healing, damage and healing are not really relevant things that I care much about doing while I'm the DC on a TONG run. So I tend to just sit on PoD/BtS/DG forever. The only time I really change those up is when I'm doing an event: When downlevelled to 60, NOTHING lives long enough for PoD, so I just put Chains in instead.
There is not much to slot anyway, except maybe Hastening light, wich is much worse on DO DC. You can aslo skip 15 points in reightous and spend into gift of gods, in case you run with an AC DC most of the time anyway.
About dps increase comparing Preview and Live like now, it´s about +50%dps at same stats encounter etc.
@balanced#2849 can you maybe check PoD ? If PoD is the go for in mod 15, concerning group shared debuffs, you should prevent that proc being delelted, 50% of all procs on ACt state: "Trigger complex no damage" since the power was reapplied before it run of.
You can make PoD-prc trigger in case of a renewed debuff ?
If you're able to indulge in the playstyle you enjoy, that's truthfully just fine. I just find in my experience that the extra damage, even from clearing trash, helps to make for a faster and smoother run.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Some QoL improvement for DO before I forget:
1. Improve empowerment registration setting:
- Due to the empowerment registration setting, the encounter that consume empowerment may be the previous or next encounter casted but not the one you cast with stacks of empowerment.
- Eg1. You cast Daunting Light with 3 stacks of empowerment then cast Forgemaster's Flame, FF gets empowered instead.
- Eg2. You cast Chains on floor, then build up stacks of empowerment and cast any encounter, meanwhile during your animation someone stepped on Chains, your empowerment is consumed by chains but not the encounter you are casting.
- Solution 1: Make the empowerment system consume stacks of empowerment on encounter cast instead of on encounter hit.
- Solution 2: Improve Daunting Light animation time.
2. Fix the buggy Hammer of Fate:
- I have to say this daily is actually OK in theory, the damage portion is average BUT what make this power obselete is the lost of damage against target out of vision and out of range during the animation + buggy cc-immune + unneccessary root for 3 seconds, making this daily useless.
- Eg. At maximum range you cast this daily, your AP is spent but if your target dodge out of range or to hide behind pillars even before you shoot our your first hammer, you will be rooted for 3 seconds performing the whole animation without dealing any damage or effect, aka easy dummy for others to kill you.
- Buggy cc-immune: The cc-immune works half of the time I can say but in many cases although I already cast HoF and my AP is consumed, I will still be knocked back, dazed, prone etc like I have no cc-immune, especially when I just casted HoF.
- Comparing with other classes single target paragon specific daily such as TR's Shocking Execution, Hammer of Fate is really junk.
Solution:
-- Instead of 3 Hammers flying across 3 seconds, combine them into 1 hammer with faster travelling speed and damage.
-- Cast and forget: When you cast HoF, there will be an illusion of you casting hammers for you while you can move around dpsing or dodging, no more rooting as free kills for TR and GF.
-- Stop consuming your AP if target is out of range/vision. Other daily will stop casting and will not consume AP if their target is out of range, I dont know why HoF is an exception.
3. Guardian of Faith damage:
- It is the time to revise the damage of this single target daily, even at rank 4 my encounter at rank 1 still hits harder than this daily.
4. Revert the changes to BotS divinity gain
- We have Tab for it, with the nerf it will slow most DO divinity gain even with avatar divinity gain buff. The overflow divinity is NEVER an issue for us. Kindly revert back to the live state ty.
I love these suggestions, and I want to echo especially the parts where...
- Daunting Light's casting delay is a relic of old game design.
- Hammer of Fate is another relic that has needed fixing since the beginning. The defensive benefits are largely a joke when the power causes you to root yourself and be unable to act otherwise for the lengthy casting duration unless you voluntarily break it and forego the rest of the spell. Besides, an increasing number of enemies even in PvE have methods of CC that bypass HoF's blanket immunity.
- This proposed "fix" to Divinity gain from BotS while in Divine mode needs to be reverted. Seriously.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I don't think I missed anything; they're still not in any way good or desirable.
Even with the supposed (is it working?) Divinity gain bonus from the Avatar of the Divine capstone, I'm generating noticeably less Divinity with the same builds and the same rotations. It seems like Avatar of the Divine is barely helping me break even with the loss suffered by making the Divinity generation formula additive, and then being unable to generate Divinity from Brand of the Sun while in Divine mode is making it much worse.
The premise of trying to smooth out Divinity gain and make the process more consistent sounds pleasant on paper, but in practice it's a significant nerf for anyone who already knew how to play DO. While I am a firm believer in Avatar of the Divine being the only viable PvE capstone in 99% of situations, I'm not sure why we're doubling down on this and even further discouraging build diversity by effectively gimping Divinity gain for Faithful and Virtuous specs.
But again, no. Not seeing any noticeable net gain whatsoever; instead it's a noticeable net loss when you factor in the BotS nerf.
Please consider restoring multiplicative Divinity gain and reverting the change to BotS Divinity generation. Players are intelligent enough to tweak their feats and features to find their own optimal and most efficient Divinity rotations.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
That's almost always the case going from multiplicative to additive. I was surprised more people didn't question that.
Did you get a chance to test out the dps? Not only am I curious what type of personal change you see but how you fair in a decent group. I think most people (sans fanbois) have tempered their exceptions of any meaningful dps increase. I'm guessing insignificant multiplied by this small buff will still be insignificant and that's without any divinity change.
I may have to wait until everything hits live to get a real feel for how the DPS tweaks to DO work in a real, buffed party, but maybe one of the folks around here who form groups on Preview and (hopefully) run a DPS-focused DO build can give us an idea.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH