I'm starting to get the "Mod 6" feeling again.... the player base is talking and no one seems to be listening.... people play games for fun, take that away how ever its done and they leave... you have some of the best TR runners talking please listen to them. You have a issue with one part of the game play and their advising how to fix it without ruining the class.
> @demonmonger said: > Hi everyone! > > > > Here is a little idea: introduce a backstab mulitplier from stealth for enocunter or at will or a class feat. > > I know there is a first strike class feat and feat in exe tree, but it could be something to think about. > > Sabo has this already
yep, you re right. But there is a first strike feat that cannot be used very well atm, so it can also be modified, to be viable to use in PVE
Guys, less fighting with GWFs allows the helpful feedback to get noticed easier. 11 Pages of comments already, hard to notice what really matters when a lot of it is TR vs GWF.
Please stop responding to various GWFs coming around. The only thing that should be addressed is the devs and their changes. If someone want to compare how they swing their class e-peen, they are welcome to open a comparison thread.
You both have a good point, and I can't speak for anyone else, but I will stop. My concern is that the devs seem to side with GWFs in general and I think we TR's don't want GWFs to say stuff on our thread and have the devs take their points over ours and ignore us. My counter to the fellow posting stuff here is not personal against him so much as it is a desire for the devs to see how we stack up compared to other classes, and to see how we might work better with those other classes.
Just a complete side note, not referencing meta number data and balancing, etc. This is coming from a person who actually plays D&D.
Flavor wise, TR is a leather armor type class. Now compared that to your heavy metal armor like GF, OP, GWF, even DC and just why does the TR either move at the same rate or slower then these others? If you have ever worn full armor, even just chain, then carried a large weapon and maybe a shield, and try to run... you will not run fast and you will not run far. I did this in Germany through a castle and that was when I was a young man in the US Army, the best shape I have ever been and it was hard.
These armor classes should be the slowest classes in the game. The TR (and HR, CW, & SW) should be 2x as fast as they completely lack the advantages of AC that the armored classes enjoy.
Just another example of how completely wacked NW is to reality or even D&D.
+1 to this. And I will speak for my CW as well that I am tired of being the slowest class when all he wears is normal clothes...what gives with this anyway. What game play reason is there for the CW to be slow (and apparently now the TR gets a downgrade)? Do away with anything that slows the TR down. It makes no sense and is just another boon to the GWF.
Guys, less fighting with GWFs allows the helpful feedback to get noticed easier. 11 Pages of comments already, hard to notice what really matters when a lot of it is TR vs GWF.
Well, these changes came about in part because GWFs, and some other classes, complained about the overpowering of TRs, especially in PvP. Harold up there is exhibit #1. The Devs listened to them.... There is lots of constructive and detailed feedback in here. If the devs don't want to hear comparisons to GWFs (again, they listened to comparisons from them against TRs...) then they can simply skip over those comments. And again, nerfing the class because of PvP when probably less than 5% of NW plays PvP is freaking rediculous. Why can't they nerf only PvP?
Thank you for taking the time for these reworks. I see you are wanting to make scoundrel more viable. I implore you to take a look at CC in this game. 5 out of the 8 classes have a secondary role of controller but with no CC on bosses no matter what you do it wont make them worth while.
So please if anything make CC 1/2 or even a 1/4 as effective on bosses. This would make a world of difference and help with other classes as well.
Thank you for taking the time for these reworks. I see you are wanting to make scoundrel more viable.
I implore you to take a look at CC in this game. 5 out of the 8 classes have a secondary role of controller but with no CC on bosses no matter what you do it wont make them worth while.
So please if anything make CC 1/2 or even a 1/4 as effective on bosses. This would make a world of difference and help with other classes as well.
Skullcracker works on bosses now, mark is bugged in preview and doesnt get extended, only thing left to test is if the mark counts as control for Low Blows.
Thanks blur. That's good to know. I still believe a general mechanic of the CC to work on bosses is the right step for all classes. It could even allow hybrid class types some they may not want to use capstones.
Rework's Worst Effects on PVE TRs and good solutions that have been proposed so far:
The whirlwind of blades nerf is easily the most impactful of the bad changes that were made. The power gained from whirlwind on live is around a 90% damage increase for TRs in PVE. The reworked version of whirlwind only gives us about 40% of this missing damage back. As pointed out by Treme, whirlwind causes the power bonuses from similar powers like the CB and press the advantage feat to double, which is a major contributor to why this power makes up such a large portion of our dps.
CB's power bonus was outright removed and the reworked version of this power grants 20% DR reduction instead. DPS classes usually run with groups that are made up of mostly support classes, these support classes already apply a ton of debuffs and because DR debuffs have diminishing returns, this means our new CB DR reduction debuff grants us way less than 20% more damage. So that's another huge chunk of our dps lopped off.
The press the advantage feat also no longer grants power and instead has been replaced by 10% more combat advantage damage. While its currently not possible to test exactly how good this 10% combat advantage is (because combat advantage damage doesn't work on preview), none of the ways it could potentially work come anywhere close to the old press the advantage's power bonus.
Shadow of demise was also restored back to its original version from before devs made all of their buffs to it. While shadowborn at least gave us back the DOT that was added onto SOD during mod 14, the mod 15 nerf to SOD still takes away a massive chunk of our damage. This nerf by itself would have been more reasonable if our power self buffs hadn't been taken out with it. The version of SOD on live right now improved conditions for the TR community a lot, though in all honesty, I would have preferred more of our dps to come from other locations rather than having so much emphasis on this 1 proc. Mod 14 SOD in relation to other dps classes made us the top dps in slower fights the majority of the time and many pug runs are slower fights. It was however a different story for TRs who usually run with stronger groups. Certain other dps classes such as HR and GWF usually burst a boss down sooner and faster than even the best TRs in these faster fights.
Proposed solution to all of the above: There are multiple ways the devs could restore enough of our damage to keep us competitive with other classes and desirable in dungeon runs. #1) The easiest way is to restore whirlwind of blades back to its M14 version and remove the action point blocker on lurker's assault. This combined with the proposed feat and power changes for M15 would be passable. Our dps would still be noticeably nerfed but by a much more reasonable amount. #2) Another thing to look into is increasing TR base damage to restore part of the missing damage and then use other forms of restored damage to fill the rest of our class's needs. #3) Another option would be to do what Treme suggested in the following quoted post: "And another thing i forgot to add, if you really wanted to fixed power loop you could simply make what u did with WoB but with CB and Press the Advantage, again as said in another post i explained that WoB works as a buff to the existing power, the fact that Cb and PtA were just checking how much power you had and adding a % of it was what made power loop a thing, meanwhile WoB checks how much power you have, increases it by % amount and when receiving more power it would increase said amount too, so if u made they all work the same adding to each other ( example: WoB giving 60% and CB giving 25% we would endup with 85% )i don't see a problem, this if you guys don't mind about having high power but since you only refereed that power looping was the problem here's a good fix that still nerfs the class but doesn't totally destroy it."
Another major nerf is the 40% reduction to DF bleed damage. For the most part, I like the way DF was reworked, it is much smoother to work with now and I was happy to see that the power still looks and feels a lot like the old version. However, while its easy to see why the devs thought reducing the damage from the bleeds would be needed to avoid overbuffing this power, the way the reworked DF turned out makes all of the bleed damage nerf unneeded. This is because the number of hits in the flurry was reduced to 6 and with a 100% chance to proc a bleed on every hit, you gain exactly 6 bleeds per DF. This means the reworked version of DF only builds bleed stacks slightly faster than it did before. Before, it would take 2 to 3 DFs to reach max bleeds. The new version of DF takes just under 2 full DFs to reach max bleeds. The total damage nerf to DF is also more than just the 40% from the bleeds since you also need to take into account the damage lost from the flurry hits that were removed, not just the bleed. You also need to take into account that gloaming cut was just buffed a lot and the fact that duelist flurry has been taking a backseat in most endgame group content even before the bleed damage was nerfed. Currently, sly flourish is treated as the main TR at will on live. People on live currently use DF only for drawn out fights and as an optional part of more complicated dps rotations. These more complicated rotations utilize both duelist's flurry and sly flourish and improve dps slightly but come at the cost of being more sensitive to mistakes and lag. In conclusion, the reworked Duelist's flurry as it currently stands on preview, doesn't dish out enough damage to compete with sly flourish and reworked gloaming cut. This is a real shame since everything else about the new DF is great and I'd totally use it if it did more damage.
Proposed solution to M15 duelist's flurry's low dps output: It looks like the devs in their response post are proposing the same fix I was going to, which was to restore the 40% missing bleed damage. There is a strong possibility that even with the 40% restored bleed damage, M15 Duelist's flurry would still be slightly weaker than sly flourish and gloaming cut in PVE, but having the missing bleed damage restored is still a good enough improvement that some TRs would pick this power up in PVE again, including me since I like this power.
The 30% damage nerf to smokebomb for PVE is not major but it along with the other more crippling damage nerfs doesn't help matters.As explained by numerous TRs already, SB is used primarily because of its buggy interaction with aura of courage. This buggy interaction gives SB most of the damage that makes it appealing in PVE, even if SB's dps was 0% people would still run it in PVE because of that buggy interaction. It should also be noted that this bug makes up a large amount of the damage that was going into shadow of demise and had a bigger impact on SOD's dps output than the buffed version of SOD itself did.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
I think part of the reason TR has such low base weapon damage is because
you mean, having the second highest weapon damage in the game, just after gwf, is low base weapon damage? lol try with HR's melee weapons, they have about 1/3rd of gwf base weapon damage, i think you are forgetting that TR's have 2 weapons that add base weapon damage, main hand and off hand.
The low number referred to as base damage by testers isn't the one on your weapon icons, its this number:
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
And as a content creator (Galactic underwear ) I find these changes to greatly diminish my wanting to create guides, content, and how to videos for Tr's.. most content creators for tr's would feel the same.. Anyways down to business.
First of all , why would you even consider removing every single ability and option we have as TR'S, to self buff ? are we even considered a dps class if these change go through to live ?
2 - I remember a community stream where FOSS, said , '' TR's need to be top dps'ers on single target due to us being so squishy and being a melee class, we need to dodge/roll many times to not die ( can't dps if you're dead ), as a result of all the dodging /rolling, we lose dps, since we can't attack in this state .. So what changed your minds?
3 - I think you all are well aware we are a DPS class, and not tanks/healers/buffers , so removing all our dps abilities would just make us a support dps class with minimal impact as dps'ers, we would end up debuffing, with wicked reminder ,sly flourish and Courage breaker rather than providing any sort of help dps wise on single targets.
4- Tr's have always had issues being invited to groups, the norm was to ask for gwf, but never a tr. we got our few months of glory only to have it ripped apart to such an extent that i know many are considering quiting and just giving up with neverwinter , and if you add the huge ban wave that happened along with these changes, than you can see how a mass exodus is very possible ( my youtube comments on these changes are overwhelming and adamant about giving this game up ) i myself love the game, as do most of us, and rather see it survive than crash and burn..
5- I'm not saying we didnt need some sort of nerf, to some abilities, i think we needed some nerfing in some areas, but this is overkill and unwaranted . Please re-think these huge nerfs, or trust me, the end result will not be in your favor.
6- Trying to balance all trees in the feat tree by destroying executioner isnt exactly a game plan IMO. ITC and COURAGE BREAKER ,are our main self buffing powers, adding WWOB to that mix and artificers, made us be competitive and usefull. Power looping was the only way we could achieve our goal of being relevant and wanted in groups. You could of just slightly reduced sod, id be okay with it staying at 50% and leave the rest as it was. That way we would still be usefull and competitive in groups. ( don't give me that one phasing nonesense since i know 5 different classes who can one phase, that comes down to skill and group compositions )
7- If these changes persist, and reach live, we will be doing 50% or more, less damage than we did in the past few months. I find that unacceptable, let alone the players who have spent thousands of dollars investing in the game and the tr itself. As a business i think this isnt to your advantage..
8- And to end this , i would like to ask you developers to really re-think this, and take a different approach to balancing. many really good number crunchers/testers and awesome people in here, have given you the right idea ( like tremeliques, mickeypoo, and blur. ) i hope you take the advice given and do something about it that is productive , that will want players to continue playing, enjoy the game, and spend money on it.. like i said earlier, sure, nerf some things, rebalance some powers, but please don't kill the class we have come to love and enjoy for so many years..
Ps. wouldnt you rather be remembered as the team who made neverwinter great again? instead of the ones who killed it? seems harsh, but not far from the truth.
Have not played for years up until a few months ago and decided to level my TR up and got leveled and collected gear already and started to love TR. The other classes seemed boring to me. Came here , read the TR updates , " nerfs", and decided after this im going to take another Long break.
Why must we keep getting nerfed so hard. Nerf the guardian fighters more they can 3 hit bosses. Great weapons fighters can at will bosses and one phase them. At least our class takes skill and requires not 1 but many perfectly timed attacks. If you take away our power stacking completely we will not be viable at all and nobody will pick us up therefore completely destroying a whole community within the neverwinter community i highly reccommend if you nerf us in any way possible let us keep the power stacking and nerf our shadow of demise down to 50% dont do both only do one or the other please. All of us have spent too much time building our Tricksters some have spent a lot of money and for you to take it all away and tell us that we wasted our time and money is too much to be honest. Please stop nerfing us so much and nerf another class this is ridiculous. The fact you buffed the great weapons fighter is beyond my capability of understanding as well but whatever i guess. Its your game and if you wanna keep making money you do what you think is best but dont hate us for leaving after you destroyed all our hard work
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Sabo has a feat that increases damage when you attack people from.behind.. log in and check mod 15
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Hi Devs. I've pretty much never posted before, but since TR is my favorite class, I want to weigh in. I'm glad to see power looping go. Though my TR is technically capable, I don't like how the rotation runs and don't bother. My dps without it places me a respectable second to the BiS gwf and combat hr. Though I think removing all forms of power buffing is too heavy a blow since other classes are capable of some self buffing. Overall, this change is probably good.
What I hope you will pay attention to, and change before live, is the way you have applied multiple layers of reductions. You removed self buffing and power looping (fair) but then you ALSO directly reduced damage in several powers and feats. This is not fair or balanced. One or the other is sufficient.
I like the idea of making Sab (already pretty good) and the middle tree I've only dallied with on par with Exe, but it should not come because you cut Exe down. SoD is supposed to hit hard. That's what it does. The M14 buff wouldn't be overpowered without the AoC problems. Instead of rolling back the change, AoC should be addressed. You don't cut off someone's legs that's taller to help a short person; you get them a stepladder to put them on par.
I like that you buffed blade flurry, but you don't have to nerf smoke bomb as en exchange, which is what it feels like. They should be equal so we can pick which we like better to use. Though fixing the AoC is necessary. I happen to like smoke bomb and have used it long before the AoC interaction. The feel of it is nice to me both thematically and in my rotation. Also, I use it when soloing or helping friends as a survival mechanism when HAMSTER goes wrong. I'd like to see the CC portion retained as well as the damage, which AoC aside, really isn't that much.
Impossible to Catch, this power is one I'd like to see you put careful thought into. ItC is a great "Oh HAMSTER" power the way it works now. That's the way I think it was intended, and I get a lot of use out of it that way. The extra power from the feat is a nice bonus, but it's not really game breaking. Really, it's not. Though I'd like to see the power buff stay simply because it's not game breaking, I'd much, much rather see ItC remain unchanged without the power buff since the encounter itself is why I use it.
Lastly, speed. I don't understand at all why speed reductions are even here. Yes, I could certainly build in high speed if I wanted to dunk some damage for it, but where is the imbalance in that? Every class is capable of the same. And even if I did, I'd still get passed up by gwf and sw doing their charge thing, who did not significantly impair their damage to use their intended Dodge as a speed boost. I'm not asking for changes to be made to gwf or sw, but I would like to know why we must lose the mobility essential to getting to the mob and positioning. We aren't ranged dps; we NEED speed to get into the fight and positioned to strike. And if you do seriously think we're running too fast, may I suggest having a look at some insignia bonuses as the culprit instead of just removing speed across the board for us?
Second lastly, though you have responded with a "scale back" of nerfs, none of your scale backs addresses the actual problems we as a community are putting forth with your proposed changes. How and why should we continue to try to engage you and make these changes work when you don't appear to be working with us in return?
The stealth rework in pve is useless. It now takes 12.5 seconds.to recharge. If you take damage just two times, which you will in the heat of combat, the recharge time is now slowed to 15 seconds. 15 seconds is enough time for the tree feats to kick in and give you stealth. Somewhere in the rotation you can get invisible infiltrator to give you stealth as well. Apparently gloaming cut will now give 15% stealth regen, that is ok,except the recharge time is now increased by 25% when moved from ten seconds to 12.5. that 15% recharge doesn't bring it back where it was. At least before, if I was lucky enough to not take damage for ten seconds i got a bonus stealth before one with the shadows kicked in. Now I have to try to avoid damage for an extra 2.5 seconds to get a bonus stealth, actually reducing the chance of me having more stealth.I would suggest putting the recharge to ten seconds, keeping the other new m15 enhancements. That still only allows me to get damaged 5 times to beat the 15 second clock on one with the shadows, but it's something. That would also make gloaming cut more useful to have as well. If your intent was just to nerf stealth, then nevermind, you did it.
> @skatopsixos7 said: > Heres my personal take on all these changes. > > > And as a content creator (Galactic underwear ) I find these changes to greatly diminish my wanting to create guides, > content, and how to videos for Tr's.. most content creators for tr's would feel the same.. > Anyways down to business. > > First of all , why would you even consider removing every single ability and option we have as TR'S, to self buff ? > are we even considered a dps class if these change go through to live ? > > 2 - I remember a community stream where FOSS, said , '' TR's need to be top dps'ers on single target due to us being so squishy and being a melee class, we need to dodge/roll many times to not die ( can't dps if you're dead ), as a result of all the dodging /rolling, we lose dps, since we can't attack in this state .. So what changed your minds? > > 3 - I think you all are well aware we are a DPS class, and not tanks/healers/buffers , so removing all our dps abilities > would just make us a support dps class with minimal impact as dps'ers, we would end up debuffing, with wicked reminder ,sly flourish and Courage breaker rather than providing any sort of help dps wise on single targets. > > 4- Tr's have always had issues being invited to groups, the norm was to ask for gwf, but never a tr. > we got our few months of glory only to have it ripped apart to such an extent that i know many are considering quiting > and just giving up with neverwinter , and if you add the huge ban wave that happened along with these changes, than you can see how a mass exodus is very possible ( my youtube comments on these changes are overwhelming and adamant about giving this game up ) > i myself love the game, as do most of us, and rather see it survive than crash and burn.. > > 5- I'm not saying we didnt need some sort of nerf, to some abilities, i think we needed some nerfing in some areas, > but this is overkill and unwaranted . Please re-think these huge nerfs, or trust me, the end result will not be in your favor. > > 6- Trying to balance all trees in the feat tree by destroying executioner isnt exactly a game plan IMO. > ITC and COURAGE BREAKER ,are our main self buffing powers, adding WWOB to that mix and artificers, made us be competitive and usefull. > Power looping was the only way we could achieve our goal of being relevant and wanted in groups. > You could of just slightly reduced sod, id be okay with it staying at 50% and leave the rest as it was. > That way we would still be usefull and competitive in groups. ( don't give me that one phasing nonesense since i know 5 different classes who can one phase, that comes down to skill and group compositions ) > > 7- If these changes persist, and reach live, we will be doing 50% or more, less damage than we did in the past few months. > I find that unacceptable, let alone the players who have spent thousands of dollars investing in the game and the tr itself. > As a business i think this isnt to your advantage.. > > 8- And to end this , i would like to ask you developers to really re-think this, and take a different approach to balancing. > many really good number crunchers/testers and awesome people in here, have given you the right idea ( like tremeliques, mickeypoo, and blur. ) i hope you take the advice given and do something about it that is productive , that will want players to continue playing, enjoy the game, and spend money on it.. > like i said earlier, sure, nerf some things, rebalance some powers, but please don't kill the class we have come to love and enjoy for so many years.. > > > Ps. wouldnt you rather be remembered as the team who made neverwinter great again? > instead of the ones who killed it? seems harsh, but not far from the truth. > > Regards > Galactic underwear.
please leave shadow of demise 75% dont change it . not to menssion I wanna stay wilth 10sec steath cooldown not 12.5 . you taking 50% demage away . I am disapointed I will have to leave if they do this to TR
Alinala ChanteClair TR (because no bard) 16.5k is my main since i started NW on december 2016.
About movement speed, i don't understand why TRs should be slower in the normal running stance (not in invisible mode) than they are today.
In my opinion, as a light armor fighter, TR should be the fastest class around (as there is no monk yet), easily outrunning GWF (if he's not dashing) OP GF DC with their heavy stuff, and the "no armor" CW (without his time stealing) SW (if he's not dashing) who were probably more trained in intellectual things than physical ones.
BUT, i also don't understand why i am able to be faster when I go invisible. For me that makes no sense at all => running like Ben Johnson on steroïds should be quite noisy... so stay discrete seems quite impossible. In my opinion, when we use discretion TR should take at least -50% running speed (and the passive skill should reduce this malus to -30% maybe). So fast TR when is visible, slow TR when he isn't. And maybe that's something you can consider as fair in pvp too, so TR cannot engage/disengage so easily.
About movement speed, i don't understand why TRs should be slower in the normal running stance (not in invisible mode) than they are today.
Neverwinter logic. Look at Guardian Fighter with a big heavy shield and sword who can move / run faster than my legendary mount. Yet a lightweight tr that supposed to be fast like a ninja cannot outrun a turtle.
jessiefloraMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 21Arc User
The changes seem less like the rework we have all been waiting years for and more like flinging around a few paragraphs and numbers in order to prevent power looping. But these changes as presented will make the PvE TR as useless as they were 2 years ago.
Please seriously consider the comments by micky1p00 (especially page 3) and tremeliques and other experienced TRs and don't take to the TR with a sledge hammer.
"As for the other changes you will see below, we really wanted to focus on getting lesser-used powers into a better state."
How about... instead of nerfing desired powers, making those lesser-used powers more desirable?
I feel like you've nerfed the power we currently use to *force* us to consider powers that are at best "meh"
What a good example right here. It just sums up how hard they have failed. You guys should really consider. You guys are slowly murdering your game, and I've been here for a while, seen many things, and I am ready to embrace changes, but your balance team is doing things wrong.
"Some DPS classes deal more dps than other classes, and that's because some are pure dps while others have slight buffs/debuffs and an overall different playstyle." This is what brings us diversity and what keeps us from playing one class, because there are people who enjoy different things. Just by nerfing everything that is used to the ground instead of buffing the unused skills/powers/w/e you wanna call them, you are just murdering the class as it is. Only people who don't know what is happening will continue to play TR.
I have one question for you, the balance team: Do you guys even play the game, or have any idea on what you are changing before you change?
To me it looks like you don't know what you are doing, and those patch notes that I see... where are the numbers??? words like "deals slightly more" shows that you guys have no idea what you're doing. Please excuse me if I was too direct or too rash.
As a side note: I still have lots of things on my mind and I will be posting them gradually once they come back to me.
Just saying, it's more logical for the melee class to be faster than a ranged class. Just saying...because they need to get close to mobs to hit them? if the tank runs in circles with them you won't be able to deal any dmg to them? I play ranged champs/class on all games, same on nw and i'm not affected, but i still think tr needs to be faster than sw/cw/dc. A char with mail armor runs faster than a tr with leather? how?? Why you guys try so hard to nerf all dps classes except gwf? you give more dmg to dc and op, and you lower tr's dmg, for real now.
> @taznim said: > "Power loop" is not the same as power gained from a single attack. i think this needs to be cleared. There are various ways to eliminate power looping, which again is only viable in long boss fights and achievable by BIS geared players who know exactly what they are doing. So even if WoB gave power, it shouldn't scare the devs into thinking that it will somehow be able to power loop by itself and hence remove any and all source of self power gains of the class. The general Mid-high tier TR players dont power loop and probably never will. However they do enjoy the self buffs provided by the skills that make them gain considerable amount of power. > > I think part of the reason TR has such low base weapon damage is because during character design it was realised that the class will have certain capabilities that they *get to keep* so they can boost their power (without looping, which again is a byproduct of a play style by a mere handful of players in the server and not the general game play norms of the class) and can focus on other stats such as recovery to be competitive dps to the other classes (that feel so threatened that they feel the need to come to TR forums and say everything is fine with the nerfs cos TR were, for once being equal in dps with them). Most people here possibly are not very knowledgeable about how power looping actually works other than the people who have been playing the class for a long time, wrote "the" guide, and read "the" said guide to proper understanding. > > Removing WoB power gain completely puts TRs at a major disadvantage simply because, x power gained by a class with % higher weapon damage will always deal more damage than x power gained by a TR with % less weapon damage. Surely the other things do factor in but the changes in the "balancing" don't really help with subverting that problem, and instead makes it more and more difficult for TR to deal damage. > > If you plan on removing every way of gaining power for the TR (which is not recommended at all) then at least consider increasing the base weapon damage of the class by 10-15%. The community in itself wants to work with the changes and wants to make changes to play style as deemed necessary for best game play experience, but it will not be possible if you dont leave any means of doing that for us and whatever we do leads to subpar overall damage.
This is correct I’m a BIS TR. 18,015 IL. (Xbox) This being said I am also in a mostly BIS level guild. So the people I run with in dungeons are mostly BIS. I know and understand the power loop, however I never use it as in order to build that power takes to much time even in the longest boss fights I’m in. In order for the power loop to be effective for me, I would most like be carrying the group through the dungeon. In which case I am merely cutting the time down on fights that I would otherwise be already completing in order to help lower geared players. I really would have no objections to negating the power loop but the problem lies in nerfing the self buffs as said previously. Negating the self buffs completely takes TR out of the game as a viable member of the group. The next closest thing a TR can bring to a group would be a debuff support. Debuffing is capped and with legendary mounts and other characters more adept at debuff this is reached far more efficiently without a TR in the group at all.
> not sure if you are trying to make fun of the destroyer class feature but for your info we do not have high deflect and deflect severity like you guys do and no we don't hide in stealth and for starters
>
> OK first of all, do you see TRs complaining and asking the nerf of GWFs who by they way are statistically the best DPS class since MOD 5/6. Moving past this, lets see what you are saying. Deflect is a stat, if you want high deflect just use the proper gear, ability stats and enchantments, also its pretty much useless in end-game PVE. Deflect severity, yes we have 50% deflect severity as opposed to your 25%, I am perfectly fine to trade it with your HPs and Armor class and general tankyness, deal? Finally "hide in stealth" how many times have you seen PVE TRs hide in stealth? Are you confusing PVE with PVP again?
TR is in for a rough time come the next mod. Herald it would be best if you stayed in the GWF discussion instead of trolling the TR discussion. Seriously your own alliance has to mute you because of the toxic discussions you attempt there. I’m actually surprised you’re still on here given the exploits you attempted to push. Please if you’re going to pipe in please do so in a matter that adds to the discussion not flame/troll others.
xDD exploits ? not sure what you are talking about mate but if i was exploiting i would've gotten banned ^^ as for alliance i beleive i helped more people there than you ever know but ofc i don't have to tell you about it and neither do i care if you care the discussion about TR is also important to me to get to know classes better just because they are getting reworked to this dosn't mean i fully agree with these changes nor does it mean i disagree some of them are necesarry fixes like smoke bomb proccing AoC multiple times and please next time if u want to say something how about backing it with some good proof instead thank you
I do think pve players would enjoy a paradigm shift to using dailies that actually hit hard instead of just going super sayan and using dailies only as a mean to buff damage. When I hit the daily button I just want stuff to die or see that boss bar go down. Currently the damage dealing dailies in PVE do so low damage they are not viable, leaving only the power buff stuff or lurkers. Without the power buff stuff, we really don't have anywhere to go. A skullcracker power that might actually work now, and new buff on all powers from sabo tree help increase that damage on dailies but the damage from dailies isn't really any better than an encounter power and not worth working into a rotation to add to the SoD proc for the Demise folks. I would propose to go ahead and remove the power buffs from the dailies and go HAM into upping the damage on dailies to move from a sayan buffing paradigm to a hard hitting daily rotation.
Some General Suggestions:
Bloodbath - pretty terrible damage, takes too long to finish. It's called blood bath and there is no blood? Make it an actual bloodbath -> Take it down to 2 seconds, add 10 stacks of bleed to all targets hit. Should now become usable in a mob/heroic encounter environment. remove the bleed for PVP.
Lurker's - give it AP gain. I understand why you don't, because it would just be perma lurkers all the time. So that is probably not an option. Change it up completely then - remove the damage buff, make it perma stealth for 4 seconds (or an extremely high regen where it looks like it's perma stealth) and allow it to proc the stealth interactions encounters one after the other. Let it regain AP. My thinking here is to get your encounters to hit harder temporarily while being able to proc other stealth effects, while not being too OP on the buff side. The current Lurker's with no AP gain totally destroys rotations and is currently only useful for short term encounters or when i feel like teleporting. My current experience in longer boss fights using this power as is now is hit super hard for the duration of lurkers then flail around like a spaghetti noodle afterwards while waiting for cooldowns to happen, or sabo buff to roll back around and give me some stealth.
WoB - Make it an actual whirlwind of blades - fling out 50 cloud of steel daggers "Expendables" movie style extremely fast over a couple seconds evenly distributed to surrounding enemies. For example, 5 enemies around you all get hit 10 times. When facing one boss you blast him with all 50 daggers. Let it stack the cloud of steel damage increase. Might make you actually want to use cloud of steel as an at-will afterwards?
Courage Breaker - Doesn't actually break the enemies courage, they aren't afraid, and they still attack you. If you remove the power buff and want to make this a utilitarian power, then you need to massively up the damage this power does (enough to make it viable for SoD rotation folks) and add a useful debuff - since it is called "Courage Breaker" you could make the enemy "afraid of you" or at least get them to attack someone else by lowering your aggro/threat to zero. It would at least be a useful tool to be useful in parties with lousy tanks or on hunts or heroics when you are getting mobbed to death and there are other players around.
Hateful knives - The damage on this power sucks pretty bad too. Might be useful if it induced the "topple" mechanic on enemies or at least caused the enemy to take a large increase of damage from all party members for a short time. It also doesn't make sense because it's a melee move in whisperknife tree. I still haven't figured out whisperknife, is it supposed to be a ranged path? There simply aren't enough dagger powers to take advantage of dagger threat. I digress...Massively up the damage on this power and give it some sort of "takes extra x damage" from party members - not the armor reduction garbage, but actual x% extra damage like the apocalypse dagger. Could be useful in a party with multiple DPS people then.
Shocking Execution - The damage from this power is not shocking at all. Main change - Make the damage actually shocking and auto-crit. Keep the piercing. At least make the damage strong enough to take down 1 baddie in a BHE (or two in a row with the AP refill), and strong enough damage to actually want to be used on a boss or used to add to a nice SoD proc. Nerf the damage in PVP.
Last year there was a Q&A stream (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/168795475). At 17min 30 sec into it, Robert says some very specific things about the TR. Something that it seems u have been working towards ever since then. And in mod 14 we pretty much got there, so what made the dev team do a full turn around and start working the opposite way? If what he said is that no longer the teams idea of how a TR is, can we have some specifics on what u think the TR should be and what their job in a group is.
This is not the first time in this thread its been asked, hope ur not gonna ignore this one like the others.
I am always sure the lead designer don't read them all, (they would need already around 8 hours to read boring texts... nobody wants to do this except enraged and scared TR players), but that doesn't stop me to post my small opinion.
I actually like 95% of the changes, because they add more viable playstyles, but i think the main problem is, that the playstyles of the Paragonpaths and Feat paths are not perfect characterized.
Most people dislike the suggested changes, not because they remove the damage from TR but remove the damage from all skills which are currently only aviable and oversee that that update would allow a lot more aviable playstyles. In the early game state (lvl 1-70) it wouldn't even be noticed and the player could play with this class a lot more enjoyable. If you would change the damage from Duelist's Flurry, Smoke Bomb, Whirlwind of Blades and Courage Breaker back (3% of all changes presented), everyone would be quite, but that doesn't mean that it is better. But it is true, that the other playstyles can't compensate the high damage which you could create with Whirlwind of Blades, so i suggest to rechange Tier5 feats to heavy damage buff feats. so that in lategame the tr doesn't have to be buried.
Here is a suggestion how you can define the paths better:
First i want to say that i like the suggested basic stealth change. All my suggestions are building up on the already suggested changes from the first post in this thread.
I don't repeat changes from the first post and don't list skills/feats i don't change and think they are good.
Paragon paths:
Masterinfiltrator (MI) - Good combination with Scoundrel and Saboteur Passiv: get Advantageous Position
Whisperknife (WK) - Good combination with Executioner and Saboteur Passiv: get Invisible Infiltrator (rename, suggestion Silent Disciple) Daily: Change -> Lurker's Assault Hateful Knives on place of Lurker's Assault
Why that?, i think Hateful Knives is interesting for MI and Lurker's Assault feels more like WK
Feats Saboteur (PvP and PvE focus) Idea - Instant high damage - in combination with keeping stealth.
T6 One with the Shadows - Idea: you don't loose stealth, your first encounter power deals more damage - Add passiv- If out of combat activated stealth decrease only 40% as fast as in combat. If you had 6 sec stealth, you have 15 sec stealth (or with Improved Cunning Sneak even more) - add The first encounterpower triggering "One with the shadows" deal 30% more damage. - (add If stealthed the cooldown from 15 sec is reduced 30% faster, damage buff lasts only 10 sec, must be tested)
T5 Ambusher's Haste (new name: Ambusher's patience) - Idea: Main damage amplifying feat: The longer you are invisible, the more dangerous you are. - new Every second being in stealth increase your damage output by 10% for 15 seconds. - new Stacks up to 15 times. - new If you reenter stealth you can get up to 5 extra stacks which can go over the limit of 15 times and also stay 15 seconds.
T5 Shadowy Opportunity - Idea: more damage - move with T5 Shadowborn from Executioner path.
T4 Return to Shadows - Idea: Faster stealth regain. - change instead instantly refilling: For the next 3 seconds stealth refills 7,14,21,28,35% faster. Can trigger if stealthed, can only trigger if not active.
T4 Gutterborn's Touch - Idea more damage when attacking from behind. - change When attacking an enemy from behind, increase your Armor Penetration and Damage Dealt by 2/4/6/8/10% - I wouldn't combine it with combat advantage.
T2 Knife's Edge - wrong path, move to Executioner T2 move get Vicious Pursuit get Twisted Grin (T4 Executioner).
T2 Sneaky Stabber (MI) - Idea: Faster stealth regain. - add if target dies with this attack or in the next second after using Gloaming Cut on him, instantly regain 20% of stealth
T2 Distracting Knife (WK) - exchange to Executioner path, get Seething Knives - remove Seething Knives - add instead buff "Lurkers Assault" (Name: Lunatic night): lurkers assault can build up Actionpoints while active. - Change Razor Action buff to Class Feature itself
T1 Flashing Blades -change Your At-Will powers deal 2/4/6/8/10% more damage when your Stealth is active. -add If the stealth meter isn't full, gain 2,4,6,8,10% movement speed and stamina resturation for 5 sec after using an at-will. can only be active once. If entering stealth, remove this buff.
T1 Shady Preparations - wrong path, move to Executioner. - move Aerial Cut here
Scoundrel Feats (PvP focus)
Idea: You are more tanky trough deflect, enemys are more weaker with crowd control, this path should focus on combat advantage, stealth is good (more stealth, more combat advantage) but not mandatory.
T6 Skullcracker - Idea: more cc on enemys, more damage for you. - suggestions are good - add: every 0.5 sec if an enemy is controlled (for real, not through the skullcracker passiv mark), he is damaged 2% of his max HP as piercing damage. No interaction with other damage modificators. (lowered for bosses)
T5 Low Blows - Idea more damage - Would add a stacking buff: every time you cc an enemy, your combat advantage damage increases by 10% (so they feel like an second crit) - add stacks up to 15 times, for 15 sec, similar like T5 Ambusher's patience. - keep bonus damage of old feat against controlled targets
T3 Back Alley Tactics - change bonus damage after daily to - your deflection stats,chances and movementspeed increase your combat advantage stat by X% as passive
T2 Seething Knives (WK) - move to Saboteur path T2, get Determined Pursuit (Exe T2)
Idea: Lot of damage (against bosses), Building up damage, crit, lots of recovery and encounter use, low stealth
T6 Shadow of Demise - Idea: Heavy free damage, but only after a time, making it not that good in PvP (instant dmg > DoT) Because you won't go that often in stealth, after stealth regeneration is increased to 12.5 sec, it is a heavy nerf to this dominating feat In my opinion it nerfes the wrong way. Better do it towards a heavy boss killing Feat - change It is active for 8 seconds (and can be activated after 8 sec again trough stealth) - small foes are dead after that time anyway - add If the enemy heals himself (trough heal or lifesteal, not regeneration) the piercing damage is reduced by the value of 50% of the heal.
T5 Shadowborn - move to Saboteur path - remove Shadowy Opportunity ( T5 Saboteur path) - add Losing controll - Idea: after removing all the bonus damage, why not add a little bit here with a pass characterizing playstyle - add Everytime you use an encounter/daily power (while being in combat), your power stat increases - add using an encounter power increase power by 8%, stacks endless, stack duration 15 sec.
T5 move Blood Soaked Blades to T4 exe T5 new Experienced Killer (new) - A crit chance over 100% increases the crit damage instead
T4 Twisted Grin - When an enemy dies, you get a buff - In my opinion not that good, to add Lifesteal, doesn't fit to this path, in fact it would be a lot better in Saboteur, also with at-wills. You stay stealthed until someone dies, and then you do your moves. - move Twisted Grin (T2 Saboteur) get Blood Soaked Blades (T5 Exe)
T2 Devastating Shroud (MI) - skill changed (look Powers) - keep If used against Monster -> increases your Critical Chance and Critical Severity for 6 sec. - add if used against Player -> Increase combat advantage stats for this skill only.
T2 Determined Pursuit (WK) - move to Scoundrel T2, get Distracting Knife (rename into something else)
T2 Vicious Pursuit - remove Vicious Pursuit get Knife's Edge (T2 Saboteur) - Add to Knife's Edge, reduce cooldown by 0.2,0.4,0.6,0.8,1 sec or 3,6,9,12,15%, whatever is better for each encounter.
T1 Arterial Cut - move T1 Saboteur - get Shady Preparations (T1 Saboteur) - Rename Shady Preparations into "Warming up", remove stealth out of it. - change You get +1,2,3,4,5% more recovery.
Heroic feats: T2 - Cunning Ambusher (5x) - better would be, 3,3.5,4,5,6% more damage for 2,3,4,5,6 sec T2 - Swift Footwork (3x) - better would be 5,10,15% more Stamina regeneration T3 - Endless Assault (5x) - 2,4,6,8,10% more encounter damage T3 - Twilight Adept (3x) - 4,8,12% stealth regeneration for 5 sec after dodge roll, not stackable T4 - Disciple of Strength (5x) - Increase the amount of bonus damage Strength gives you by 2,3,4,5,6%. T4 - Improved Cunning Sneak (3x) - Sneak last 8,16,25% longer
Comments
> Hi everyone!
>
>
>
> Here is a little idea: introduce a backstab mulitplier from stealth for enocunter or at will or a class feat.
>
> I know there is a first strike class feat and feat in exe tree, but it could be something to think about.
>
> Sabo has this already
yep, you re right.
But there is a first strike feat that cannot be used very well atm, so it can also be modified, to be viable to use in PVE
You both have a good point, and I can't speak for anyone else, but I will stop. My concern is that the devs seem to side with GWFs in general and I think we TR's don't want GWFs to say stuff on our thread and have the devs take their points over ours and ignore us. My counter to the fellow posting stuff here is not personal against him so much as it is a desire for the devs to see how we stack up compared to other classes, and to see how we might work better with those other classes.
+1 to this. And I will speak for my CW as well that I am tired of being the slowest class when all he wears is normal clothes...what gives with this anyway. What game play reason is there for the CW to be slow (and apparently now the TR gets a downgrade)? Do away with anything that slows the TR down. It makes no sense and is just another boon to the GWF.
I implore you to take a look at CC in this game. 5 out of the 8 classes have a secondary role of controller but with no CC on bosses no matter what you do it wont make them worth while.
So please if anything make CC 1/2 or even a 1/4 as effective on bosses. This would make a world of difference and help with other classes as well.
The whirlwind of blades nerf is easily the most impactful of the bad changes that were made. The power gained from whirlwind on live is around a 90% damage increase for TRs in PVE.
The reworked version of whirlwind only gives us about 40% of this missing damage back.
As pointed out by Treme, whirlwind causes the power bonuses from similar powers like the CB and press the advantage feat to double, which is a major contributor to why this power makes up such a large portion of our dps.
CB's power bonus was outright removed and the reworked version of this power grants 20% DR reduction instead.
DPS classes usually run with groups that are made up of mostly support classes, these support classes already apply a ton of debuffs and because DR debuffs have diminishing returns, this means our new CB DR reduction debuff grants us way less than 20% more damage. So that's another huge chunk of our dps lopped off.
The press the advantage feat also no longer grants power and instead has been replaced by 10% more combat advantage damage. While its currently not possible to test exactly how good this 10% combat advantage is (because combat advantage damage doesn't work on preview), none of the ways it could potentially work come anywhere close to the old press the advantage's power bonus.
Shadow of demise was also restored back to its original version from before devs made all of their buffs to it. While shadowborn at least gave us back the DOT that was added onto SOD during mod 14, the mod 15 nerf to SOD still takes away a massive chunk of our damage. This nerf by itself would have been more reasonable if our power self buffs hadn't been taken out with it.
The version of SOD on live right now improved conditions for the TR community a lot, though in all honesty, I would have preferred more of our dps to come from other locations rather than having so much emphasis on this 1 proc.
Mod 14 SOD in relation to other dps classes made us the top dps in slower fights the majority of the time and many pug runs are slower fights. It was however a different story for TRs who usually run with stronger groups. Certain other dps classes such as HR and GWF usually burst a boss down sooner and faster than even the best TRs in these faster fights.
Proposed solution to all of the above:
There are multiple ways the devs could restore enough of our damage to keep us competitive with other classes and desirable in dungeon runs.
#1) The easiest way is to restore whirlwind of blades back to its M14 version and remove the action point blocker on lurker's assault. This combined with the proposed feat and power changes for M15 would be passable. Our dps would still be noticeably nerfed but by a much more reasonable amount.
#2) Another thing to look into is increasing TR base damage to restore part of the missing damage and then use other forms of restored damage to fill the rest of our class's needs.
#3) Another option would be to do what Treme suggested in the following quoted post:
"And another thing i forgot to add, if you really wanted to fixed power loop you could simply make what u did with WoB but with CB and Press the Advantage, again as said in another post i explained that WoB works as a buff to the existing power, the fact that Cb and PtA were just checking how much power you had and adding a % of it was what made power loop a thing, meanwhile WoB checks how much power you have, increases it by % amount and when receiving more power it would increase said amount too, so if u made they all work the same adding to each other ( example: WoB giving 60% and CB giving 25% we would endup with 85% )i don't see a problem, this if you guys don't mind about having high power but since you only refereed that power looping was the problem here's a good fix that still nerfs the class but doesn't totally destroy it."
Another major nerf is the 40% reduction to DF bleed damage. For the most part, I like the way DF was reworked, it is much smoother to work with now and I was happy to see that the power still looks and feels a lot like the old version.
However, while its easy to see why the devs thought reducing the damage from the bleeds would be needed to avoid overbuffing this power, the way the reworked DF turned out makes all of the bleed damage nerf unneeded. This is because the number of hits in the flurry was reduced to 6 and with a 100% chance to proc a bleed on every hit, you gain exactly 6 bleeds per DF. This means the reworked version of DF only builds bleed stacks slightly faster than it did before. Before, it would take 2 to 3 DFs to reach max bleeds. The new version of DF takes just under 2 full DFs to reach max bleeds.
The total damage nerf to DF is also more than just the 40% from the bleeds since you also need to take into account the damage lost from the flurry hits that were removed, not just the bleed.
You also need to take into account that gloaming cut was just buffed a lot and the fact that duelist flurry has been taking a backseat in most endgame group content even before the bleed damage was nerfed. Currently, sly flourish is treated as the main TR at will on live. People on live currently use DF only for drawn out fights and as an optional part of more complicated dps rotations. These more complicated rotations utilize both duelist's flurry and sly flourish and improve dps slightly but come at the cost of being more sensitive to mistakes and lag.
In conclusion, the reworked Duelist's flurry as it currently stands on preview, doesn't dish out enough damage to compete with sly flourish and reworked gloaming cut. This is a real shame since everything else about the new DF is great and I'd totally use it if it did more damage.
Proposed solution to M15 duelist's flurry's low dps output:
It looks like the devs in their response post are proposing the same fix I was going to, which was to restore the 40% missing bleed damage. There is a strong possibility that even with the 40% restored bleed damage, M15 Duelist's flurry would still be slightly weaker than sly flourish and gloaming cut in PVE, but having the missing bleed damage restored is still a good enough improvement that some TRs would pick this power up in PVE again, including me since I like this power.
The 30% damage nerf to smokebomb for PVE is not major but it along with the other more crippling damage nerfs doesn't help matters. As explained by numerous TRs already, SB is used primarily because of its buggy interaction with aura of courage. This buggy interaction gives SB most of the damage that makes it appealing in PVE, even if SB's dps was 0% people would still run it in PVE because of that buggy interaction. It should also be noted that this bug makes up a large amount of the damage that was going into shadow of demise and had a bigger impact on SOD's dps output than the buffed version of SOD itself did.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mtGzVOtdMt998qZz97odzeM4_FDQJWqKqLQOQK9Qgok/htmlview#
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
And as a content creator (Galactic underwear ) I find these changes to greatly diminish my wanting to create guides,
content, and how to videos for Tr's.. most content creators for tr's would feel the same..
Anyways down to business.
First of all , why would you even consider removing every single ability and option we have as TR'S, to self buff ?
are we even considered a dps class if these change go through to live ?
2 - I remember a community stream where FOSS, said , '' TR's need to be top dps'ers on single target due to us being so squishy and being a melee class, we need to dodge/roll many times to not die ( can't dps if you're dead ), as a result of all the dodging /rolling, we lose dps, since we can't attack in this state .. So what changed your minds?
3 - I think you all are well aware we are a DPS class, and not tanks/healers/buffers , so removing all our dps abilities
would just make us a support dps class with minimal impact as dps'ers, we would end up debuffing, with wicked reminder ,sly flourish and Courage breaker rather than providing any sort of help dps wise on single targets.
4- Tr's have always had issues being invited to groups, the norm was to ask for gwf, but never a tr.
we got our few months of glory only to have it ripped apart to such an extent that i know many are considering quiting
and just giving up with neverwinter , and if you add the huge ban wave that happened along with these changes, than you can see how a mass exodus is very possible ( my youtube comments on these changes are overwhelming and adamant about giving this game up )
i myself love the game, as do most of us, and rather see it survive than crash and burn..
5- I'm not saying we didnt need some sort of nerf, to some abilities, i think we needed some nerfing in some areas,
but this is overkill and unwaranted . Please re-think these huge nerfs, or trust me, the end result will not be in your favor.
6- Trying to balance all trees in the feat tree by destroying executioner isnt exactly a game plan IMO.
ITC and COURAGE BREAKER ,are our main self buffing powers, adding WWOB to that mix and artificers, made us be competitive and usefull.
Power looping was the only way we could achieve our goal of being relevant and wanted in groups.
You could of just slightly reduced sod, id be okay with it staying at 50% and leave the rest as it was.
That way we would still be usefull and competitive in groups. ( don't give me that one phasing nonesense since i know 5 different classes who can one phase, that comes down to skill and group compositions )
7- If these changes persist, and reach live, we will be doing 50% or more, less damage than we did in the past few months.
I find that unacceptable, let alone the players who have spent thousands of dollars investing in the game and the tr itself.
As a business i think this isnt to your advantage..
8- And to end this , i would like to ask you developers to really re-think this, and take a different approach to balancing.
many really good number crunchers/testers and awesome people in here, have given you the right idea ( like tremeliques, mickeypoo, and blur. ) i hope you take the advice given and do something about it that is productive , that will want players to continue playing, enjoy the game, and spend money on it..
like i said earlier, sure, nerf some things, rebalance some powers, but please don't kill the class we have come to love and enjoy for so many years..
Ps. wouldnt you rather be remembered as the team who made neverwinter great again?
instead of the ones who killed it? seems harsh, but not far from the truth.
Regards
Galactic underwear.
What I hope you will pay attention to, and change before live, is the way you have applied multiple layers of reductions. You removed self buffing and power looping (fair) but then you ALSO directly reduced damage in several powers and feats. This is not fair or balanced. One or the other is sufficient.
I like the idea of making Sab (already pretty good) and the middle tree I've only dallied with on par with Exe, but it should not come because you cut Exe down. SoD is supposed to hit hard. That's what it does. The M14 buff wouldn't be overpowered without the AoC problems. Instead of rolling back the change, AoC should be addressed. You don't cut off someone's legs that's taller to help a short person; you get them a stepladder to put them on par.
I like that you buffed blade flurry, but you don't have to nerf smoke bomb as en exchange, which is what it feels like. They should be equal so we can pick which we like better to use. Though fixing the AoC is necessary. I happen to like smoke bomb and have used it long before the AoC interaction. The feel of it is nice to me both thematically and in my rotation. Also, I use it when soloing or helping friends as a survival mechanism when HAMSTER goes wrong. I'd like to see the CC portion retained as well as the damage, which AoC aside, really isn't that much.
Impossible to Catch, this power is one I'd like to see you put careful thought into. ItC is a great "Oh HAMSTER" power the way it works now. That's the way I think it was intended, and I get a lot of use out of it that way. The extra power from the feat is a nice bonus, but it's not really game breaking. Really, it's not. Though I'd like to see the power buff stay simply because it's not game breaking, I'd much, much rather see ItC remain unchanged without the power buff since the encounter itself is why I use it.
Lastly, speed. I don't understand at all why speed reductions are even here. Yes, I could certainly build in high speed if I wanted to dunk some damage for it, but where is the imbalance in that? Every class is capable of the same. And even if I did, I'd still get passed up by gwf and sw doing their charge thing, who did not significantly impair their damage to use their intended Dodge as a speed boost. I'm not asking for changes to be made to gwf or sw, but I would like to know why we must lose the mobility essential to getting to the mob and positioning. We aren't ranged dps; we NEED speed to get into the fight and positioned to strike. And if you do seriously think we're running too fast, may I suggest having a look at some insignia bonuses as the culprit instead of just removing speed across the board for us?
Second lastly, though you have responded with a "scale back" of nerfs, none of your scale backs addresses the actual problems we as a community are putting forth with your proposed changes. How and why should we continue to try to engage you and make these changes work when you don't appear to be working with us in return?
> Heres my personal take on all these changes.
>
>
> And as a content creator (Galactic underwear ) I find these changes to greatly diminish my wanting to create guides,
> content, and how to videos for Tr's.. most content creators for tr's would feel the same..
> Anyways down to business.
>
> First of all , why would you even consider removing every single ability and option we have as TR'S, to self buff ?
> are we even considered a dps class if these change go through to live ?
>
> 2 - I remember a community stream where FOSS, said , '' TR's need to be top dps'ers on single target due to us being so squishy and being a melee class, we need to dodge/roll many times to not die ( can't dps if you're dead ), as a result of all the dodging /rolling, we lose dps, since we can't attack in this state .. So what changed your minds?
>
> 3 - I think you all are well aware we are a DPS class, and not tanks/healers/buffers , so removing all our dps abilities
> would just make us a support dps class with minimal impact as dps'ers, we would end up debuffing, with wicked reminder ,sly flourish and Courage breaker rather than providing any sort of help dps wise on single targets.
>
> 4- Tr's have always had issues being invited to groups, the norm was to ask for gwf, but never a tr.
> we got our few months of glory only to have it ripped apart to such an extent that i know many are considering quiting
> and just giving up with neverwinter , and if you add the huge ban wave that happened along with these changes, than you can see how a mass exodus is very possible ( my youtube comments on these changes are overwhelming and adamant about giving this game up )
> i myself love the game, as do most of us, and rather see it survive than crash and burn..
>
> 5- I'm not saying we didnt need some sort of nerf, to some abilities, i think we needed some nerfing in some areas,
> but this is overkill and unwaranted . Please re-think these huge nerfs, or trust me, the end result will not be in your favor.
>
> 6- Trying to balance all trees in the feat tree by destroying executioner isnt exactly a game plan IMO.
> ITC and COURAGE BREAKER ,are our main self buffing powers, adding WWOB to that mix and artificers, made us be competitive and usefull.
> Power looping was the only way we could achieve our goal of being relevant and wanted in groups.
> You could of just slightly reduced sod, id be okay with it staying at 50% and leave the rest as it was.
> That way we would still be usefull and competitive in groups. ( don't give me that one phasing nonesense since i know 5 different classes who can one phase, that comes down to skill and group compositions )
>
> 7- If these changes persist, and reach live, we will be doing 50% or more, less damage than we did in the past few months.
> I find that unacceptable, let alone the players who have spent thousands of dollars investing in the game and the tr itself.
> As a business i think this isnt to your advantage..
>
> 8- And to end this , i would like to ask you developers to really re-think this, and take a different approach to balancing.
> many really good number crunchers/testers and awesome people in here, have given you the right idea ( like tremeliques, mickeypoo, and blur. ) i hope you take the advice given and do something about it that is productive , that will want players to continue playing, enjoy the game, and spend money on it..
> like i said earlier, sure, nerf some things, rebalance some powers, but please don't kill the class we have come to love and enjoy for so many years..
>
>
> Ps. wouldnt you rather be remembered as the team who made neverwinter great again?
> instead of the ones who killed it? seems harsh, but not far from the truth.
>
> Regards
> Galactic underwear.
Spot on, now hopefully they see this.
I am disapointed
I will have to leave if they do this to TR
Alinala ChanteClair TR (because no bard) 16.5k is my main since i started NW on december 2016.
About movement speed, i don't understand why TRs should be slower in the normal running stance (not in invisible mode) than they are today.
In my opinion, as a light armor fighter, TR should be the fastest class around (as there is no monk yet), easily outrunning GWF (if he's not dashing) OP GF DC with their heavy stuff, and the "no armor" CW (without his time stealing) SW (if he's not dashing) who were probably more trained in intellectual things than physical ones.
BUT, i also don't understand why i am able to be faster when I go invisible. For me that makes no sense at all => running like Ben Johnson on steroïds should be quite noisy... so stay discrete seems quite impossible.
In my opinion, when we use discretion TR should take at least -50% running speed (and the passive skill should reduce this malus to -30% maybe). So fast TR when is visible, slow TR when he isn't.
And maybe that's something you can consider as fair in pvp too, so TR cannot engage/disengage so easily.
Look at Guardian Fighter with a big heavy shield and sword who can move / run faster than my legendary mount.
Yet a lightweight tr that supposed to be fast like a ninja cannot outrun a turtle.
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
Please seriously consider the comments by micky1p00 (especially page 3) and tremeliques and other experienced TRs and don't take to the TR with a sledge hammer.
> "Power loop" is not the same as power gained from a single attack. i think this needs to be cleared. There are various ways to eliminate power looping, which again is only viable in long boss fights and achievable by BIS geared players who know exactly what they are doing. So even if WoB gave power, it shouldn't scare the devs into thinking that it will somehow be able to power loop by itself and hence remove any and all source of self power gains of the class. The general Mid-high tier TR players dont power loop and probably never will. However they do enjoy the self buffs provided by the skills that make them gain considerable amount of power.
>
> I think part of the reason TR has such low base weapon damage is because during character design it was realised that the class will have certain capabilities that they *get to keep* so they can boost their power (without looping, which again is a byproduct of a play style by a mere handful of players in the server and not the general game play norms of the class) and can focus on other stats such as recovery to be competitive dps to the other classes (that feel so threatened that they feel the need to come to TR forums and say everything is fine with the nerfs cos TR were, for once being equal in dps with them). Most people here possibly are not very knowledgeable about how power looping actually works other than the people who have been playing the class for a long time, wrote "the" guide, and read "the" said guide to proper understanding.
>
> Removing WoB power gain completely puts TRs at a major disadvantage simply because, x power gained by a class with % higher weapon damage will always deal more damage than x power gained by a TR with % less weapon damage. Surely the other things do factor in but the changes in the "balancing" don't really help with subverting that problem, and instead makes it more and more difficult for TR to deal damage.
>
> If you plan on removing every way of gaining power for the TR (which is not recommended at all) then at least consider increasing the base weapon damage of the class by 10-15%. The community in itself wants to work with the changes and wants to make changes to play style as deemed necessary for best game play experience, but it will not be possible if you dont leave any means of doing that for us and whatever we do leads to subpar overall damage.
This is correct I’m a BIS TR. 18,015 IL. (Xbox) This being said I am also in a mostly BIS level guild. So the people I run with in dungeons are mostly BIS. I know and understand the power loop, however I never use it as in order to build that power takes to much time even in the longest boss fights I’m in. In order for the power loop to be effective for me, I would most like be carrying the group through the dungeon. In which case I am merely cutting the time down on fights that I would otherwise be already completing in order to help lower geared players. I really would have no objections to negating the power loop but the problem lies in nerfing the self buffs as said previously. Negating the self buffs completely takes TR out of the game as a viable member of the group. The next closest thing a TR can bring to a group would be a debuff support. Debuffing is capped and with legendary mounts and other characters more adept at debuff this is reached far more efficiently without a TR in the group at all.
thank you
Some General Suggestions:
Bloodbath - pretty terrible damage, takes too long to finish. It's called blood bath and there is no blood?
Make it an actual bloodbath -> Take it down to 2 seconds, add 10 stacks of bleed to all targets hit. Should now become usable in a mob/heroic encounter environment. remove the bleed for PVP.
Lurker's - give it AP gain. I understand why you don't, because it would just be perma lurkers all the time. So that is probably not an option.
Change it up completely then - remove the damage buff, make it perma stealth for 4 seconds (or an extremely high regen where it looks like it's perma stealth) and allow it to proc the stealth interactions encounters one after the other. Let it regain AP. My thinking here is to get your encounters to hit harder temporarily while being able to proc other stealth effects, while not being too OP on the buff side. The current Lurker's with no AP gain totally destroys rotations and is currently only useful for short term encounters or when i feel like teleporting. My current experience in longer boss fights using this power as is now is hit super hard for the duration of lurkers then flail around like a spaghetti noodle afterwards while waiting for cooldowns to happen, or sabo buff to roll back around and give me some stealth.
WoB - Make it an actual whirlwind of blades - fling out 50 cloud of steel daggers "Expendables" movie style extremely fast over a couple seconds evenly distributed to surrounding enemies. For example, 5 enemies around you all get hit 10 times. When facing one boss you blast him with all 50 daggers. Let it stack the cloud of steel damage increase. Might make you actually want to use cloud of steel as an at-will afterwards?
Courage Breaker - Doesn't actually break the enemies courage, they aren't afraid, and they still attack you. If you remove the power buff and want to make this a utilitarian power, then you need to massively up the damage this power does (enough to make it viable for SoD rotation folks) and add a useful debuff - since it is called "Courage Breaker" you could make the enemy "afraid of you" or at least get them to attack someone else by lowering your aggro/threat to zero. It would at least be a useful tool to be useful in parties with lousy tanks or on hunts or heroics when you are getting mobbed to death and there are other players around.
Hateful knives - The damage on this power sucks pretty bad too. Might be useful if it induced the "topple" mechanic on enemies or at least caused the enemy to take a large increase of damage from all party members for a short time. It also doesn't make sense because it's a melee move in whisperknife tree. I still haven't figured out whisperknife, is it supposed to be a ranged path? There simply aren't enough dagger powers to take advantage of dagger threat. I digress...Massively up the damage on this power and give it some sort of "takes extra x damage" from party members - not the armor reduction garbage, but actual x% extra damage like the apocalypse dagger. Could be useful in a party with multiple DPS people then.
Shocking Execution - The damage from this power is not shocking at all. Main change - Make the damage actually shocking and auto-crit. Keep the piercing. At least make the damage strong enough to take down 1 baddie in a BHE (or two in a row with the AP refill), and strong enough damage to actually want to be used on a boss or used to add to a nice SoD proc. Nerf the damage in PVP.
Last year there was a Q&A stream (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/168795475). At 17min 30 sec into it, Robert says some very specific things about the TR. Something that it seems u have been working towards ever since then. And in mod 14 we pretty much got there, so what made the dev team do a full turn around and start working the opposite way? If what he said is that no longer the teams idea of how a TR is, can we have some specifics on what u think the TR should be and what their job in a group is.
This is not the first time in this thread its been asked, hope ur not gonna ignore this one like the others.
I actually like 95% of the changes, because they add more viable playstyles, but i think the main problem is, that the playstyles of the Paragonpaths and Feat paths are not perfect characterized.
Most people dislike the suggested changes, not because they remove the damage from TR but remove the damage from all skills which are currently only aviable and oversee that that update would allow a lot more aviable playstyles.
In the early game state (lvl 1-70) it wouldn't even be noticed and the player could play with this class a lot more enjoyable.
If you would change the damage from Duelist's Flurry, Smoke Bomb, Whirlwind of Blades and Courage Breaker back (3% of all changes presented), everyone would be quite, but that doesn't mean that it is better.
But it is true, that the other playstyles can't compensate the high damage which you could create with Whirlwind of Blades, so i suggest to rechange Tier5 feats to heavy damage buff feats. so that in lategame the tr doesn't have to be buried.
Here is a suggestion how you can define the paths better:
First i want to say that i like the suggested basic stealth change. All my suggestions are building up on the already suggested changes from the first post in this thread.
I don't repeat changes from the first post and don't list skills/feats i don't change and think they are good.
Paragon paths:
Masterinfiltrator (MI) - Good combination with Scoundrel and Saboteur
Passiv: get Advantageous Position
Whisperknife (WK) - Good combination with Executioner and Saboteur
Passiv: get Invisible Infiltrator (rename, suggestion Silent Disciple)
Daily: Change -> Lurker's Assault
Hateful Knives on place of Lurker's Assault
Why that?, i think Hateful Knives is interesting for MI and Lurker's Assault feels more like WK
Feats
Saboteur (PvP and PvE focus)
Idea - Instant high damage - in combination with keeping stealth.
T6 One with the Shadows - Idea: you don't loose stealth, your first encounter power deals more damage
- Add passiv- If out of combat activated stealth decrease only 40% as fast as in combat. If you had 6 sec stealth, you have 15 sec stealth (or with Improved Cunning Sneak even more)
- add The first encounterpower triggering "One with the shadows" deal 30% more damage.
- (add If stealthed the cooldown from 15 sec is reduced 30% faster, damage buff lasts only 10 sec, must be tested)
T5 Ambusher's Haste (new name: Ambusher's patience) - Idea: Main damage amplifying feat: The longer you are invisible, the more dangerous you are.
- new Every second being in stealth increase your damage output by 10% for 15 seconds.
- new Stacks up to 15 times.
- new If you reenter stealth you can get up to 5 extra stacks which can go over the limit of 15 times and also stay 15 seconds.
T5 Shadowy Opportunity - Idea: more damage
- move with T5 Shadowborn from Executioner path.
T4 Return to Shadows - Idea: Faster stealth regain.
- change instead instantly refilling: For the next 3 seconds stealth refills 7,14,21,28,35% faster. Can trigger if stealthed, can only trigger if not active.
T4 Gutterborn's Touch - Idea more damage when attacking from behind.
- change When attacking an enemy from behind, increase your Armor Penetration and Damage Dealt by 2/4/6/8/10%
- I wouldn't combine it with combat advantage.
T2 Knife's Edge - wrong path, move to Executioner
T2 move get Vicious Pursuit get Twisted Grin (T4 Executioner).
T2 Sneaky Stabber (MI) - Idea: Faster stealth regain.
- add if target dies with this attack or in the next second after using Gloaming Cut on him, instantly regain 20% of stealth
T2 Distracting Knife (WK)
- exchange to Executioner path, get Seething Knives
- remove Seething Knives
- add instead buff "Lurkers Assault" (Name: Lunatic night): lurkers assault can build up Actionpoints while active.
- Change Razor Action buff to Class Feature itself
T1 Flashing Blades
-change Your At-Will powers deal 2/4/6/8/10% more damage when your Stealth is active.
-add If the stealth meter isn't full, gain 2,4,6,8,10% movement speed and stamina resturation for 5 sec after using an at-will. can only be active once. If entering stealth, remove this buff.
T1 Shady Preparations - wrong path, move to Executioner.
- move Aerial Cut here
Scoundrel Feats (PvP focus)
Idea: You are more tanky trough deflect, enemys are more weaker with crowd control, this path should focus on combat advantage, stealth is good (more stealth, more combat advantage) but not mandatory.
T6 Skullcracker - Idea: more cc on enemys, more damage for you.
- suggestions are good
- add: every 0.5 sec if an enemy is controlled (for real, not through the skullcracker passiv mark), he is damaged 2% of his max HP as piercing damage. No interaction with other damage modificators. (lowered for bosses)
T5 Low Blows - Idea more damage
- Would add a stacking buff: every time you cc an enemy, your combat advantage damage increases by 10% (so they feel like an second crit)
- add stacks up to 15 times, for 15 sec, similar like T5 Ambusher's patience.
- keep bonus damage of old feat against controlled targets
T3 Back Alley Tactics
- change bonus damage after daily to - your deflection stats,chances and movementspeed increase your combat advantage stat by X% as passive
T2 Seething Knives (WK)
- move to Saboteur path T2, get Determined Pursuit (Exe T2)
T1 Bloody Brawler
- change maybe needs higher percentage
Executioner Feats (PvE focus)
Idea: Lot of damage (against bosses), Building up damage, crit, lots of recovery and encounter use, low stealth
T6 Shadow of Demise - Idea: Heavy free damage, but only after a time, making it not that good in PvP (instant dmg > DoT)
Because you won't go that often in stealth, after stealth regeneration is increased to 12.5 sec, it is a heavy nerf to this dominating feat
In my opinion it nerfes the wrong way.
Better do it towards a heavy boss killing Feat
- change It is active for 8 seconds (and can be activated after 8 sec again trough stealth) - small foes are dead after that time anyway
- add If the enemy heals himself (trough heal or lifesteal, not regeneration) the piercing damage is reduced by the value of 50% of the heal.
T5 Shadowborn - move to Saboteur path
- remove Shadowy Opportunity ( T5 Saboteur path)
- add Losing controll - Idea: after removing all the bonus damage, why not add a little bit here with a pass characterizing playstyle
- add Everytime you use an encounter/daily power (while being in combat), your power stat increases
- add using an encounter power increase power by 8%, stacks endless, stack duration 15 sec.
T5 move Blood Soaked Blades to T4 exe
T5 new Experienced Killer (new) - A crit chance over 100% increases the crit damage instead
T4 Twisted Grin - When an enemy dies, you get a buff
- In my opinion not that good, to add Lifesteal, doesn't fit to this path, in fact it would be a lot better in Saboteur, also with at-wills. You stay stealthed until someone dies, and then you do your moves.
- move Twisted Grin (T2 Saboteur) get Blood Soaked Blades (T5 Exe)
T2 Devastating Shroud (MI)
- skill changed (look Powers)
- keep If used against Monster -> increases your Critical Chance and Critical Severity for 6 sec.
- add if used against Player -> Increase combat advantage stats for this skill only.
T2 Determined Pursuit (WK)
- move to Scoundrel T2, get Distracting Knife (rename into something else)
T2 Vicious Pursuit
- remove Vicious Pursuit get Knife's Edge (T2 Saboteur)
- Add to Knife's Edge, reduce cooldown by 0.2,0.4,0.6,0.8,1 sec or 3,6,9,12,15%, whatever is better for each encounter.
T1 Arterial Cut
- move T1 Saboteur
- get Shady Preparations (T1 Saboteur)
- Rename Shady Preparations into "Warming up", remove stealth out of it.
- change You get +1,2,3,4,5% more recovery.
Heroic feats:
T2 - Cunning Ambusher (5x) - better would be, 3,3.5,4,5,6% more damage for 2,3,4,5,6 sec
T2 - Swift Footwork (3x) - better would be 5,10,15% more Stamina regeneration
T3 - Endless Assault (5x) - 2,4,6,8,10% more encounter damage
T3 - Twilight Adept (3x) - 4,8,12% stealth regeneration for 5 sec after dodge roll, not stackable
T4 - Disciple of Strength (5x) - Increase the amount of bonus damage Strength gives you by 2,3,4,5,6%.
T4 - Improved Cunning Sneak (3x) - Sneak last 8,16,25% longer