OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
I guess its fair enough that Power looping is targeted since the potential was endless even tho it rarely occurred in end-game since there is not time for it. I dont object to putting a stop to the WoB+ITC+CB interaction but at least give us one source of Power increase since we lost all 3. We need high AP gain and for that we need high Power stat because its crucial for us to overlap two Daily powers, because its not possible to compete with just one Daily buff. My suggestion is reverting Whirlwind of Blades to how it was. Power looping without CB giving Power is no longer possible and WoB itself is the greatest nerf because it now gives 40% damage increase while it used to give us ~90% damage increase(without Power loop with CB). You can also nerf WoB to 10% Power per target hit but i dont recommend that because TR will lose large portion of damage when Smoke bomb triggering Aura of Courage 4 times gets fixed. Reverting only WoB would help us a lot. Removing AP gain block from Lurkers Assault would be great addition because we wont stand a chance in longer fights even with WoB reverted.
DF Bleeds damage back to previous is great since it would help low and mid tier TRs, wont affect end-game TRs since they dont use it anyway. Skullcracker duration increase is fantastic, it would give Executioner good run for his money. Currently there is bug with the Skullcracker mark not being extended by damage done, it stays at 6 seconds on Bosses. One with the Shadows increase is also nice and puts Saboteur int othe race with other two trees as well. Shadowborn increase sounds fair, it is weaker than m14 SoD bleed because it used to double dip and SoD itself already was toned town by 1/3 of the damage. Also Shadowborn wont be used everywhere, strictly for single target fights, it will be replaced on mobs and on bosses which have mobs around them.
Bottom line, we need some source of Power stat back, best would be WoB since it has hit us the most and since we need AP gain so much.
tbh i don't see why you need powerlooping that much other DPS classes don't have ability to powerloop and even the GWF class wich has a feat TIER 4 that gives some power only gives 12000 if you have somewhere near BIS gear so why should a TR have 2 dailies and an encounter that increase thier power by huge margins than that while other classes don't have such luxury ? just play the game with whaever powershare the party provide so i don't agree that powerlooping on TR should be reverted
Power loop is not what you think it is and i didnt ask for it to be reverted.
5
dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
edited September 2018
Throw out those smoke bombs. Like I've been saying for ages "real ninjas don't need smoke bombs".
My builds will be PvE/PvP fine. I'll screenshot everything before Mod 15 in case there's a horrible enforced respec again. I hate those. They need an option to decline them.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Just a complete side note, not referencing meta number data and balancing, etc. This is coming from a person who actually plays D&D.
Flavor wise, TR is a leather armor type class. Now compared that to your heavy metal armor like GF, OP, GWF, even DC and just why does the TR either move at the same rate or slower then these others? If you have ever worn full armor, even just chain, then carried a large weapon and maybe a shield, and try to run... you will not run fast and you will not run far. I did this in Germany through a castle and that was when I was a young man in the US Army, the best shape I have ever been and it was hard.
These armor classes should be the slowest classes in the game. The TR (and HR, CW, & SW) should be 2x as fast as they completely lack the advantages of AC that the armored classes enjoy.
Just another example of how completely wacked NW is to reality or even D&D.
what you don't seem to understand is that all these nerfs were made specially to avoid power loops, you just adding power to most of TR's powers is counterproductive.
> @divectore said: > what you don't seem to understand is that all these nerfs were made specially to avoid power loops, you just adding power to most of TR's powers is counterproductive.
really? movement speed and skill nerfs were made to avoid power loops? try again.
Just a complete side note, not referencing meta number data and balancing, etc. This is coming from a person who actually plays D&D.
Flavor wise, TR is a leather armor type class. Now compared that to your heavy metal armor like GF, OP, GWF, even DC and just why does the TR either move at the same rate or slower then these others? If you have ever worn full armor, even just chain, then carried a large weapon and maybe a shield, and try to run... you will not run fast and you will not run far. I did this in Germany through a castle and that was when I was a young man in the US Army, the best shape I have ever been and it was hard.
These armor classes should be the slowest classes in the game. The TR (and HR, CW, & SW) should be 2x as fast as they completely lack the advantages of AC that the armored classes enjoy.
Just another example of how completely wacked NW is to reality or even D&D.
This is true. Why does a huge guy wearing heavy armor carrying an unwieldy sword run circles around my leatherbound midget holding a couple of letter openers?
"Power loop" is not the same as power gained from a single attack. i think this needs to be cleared. There are various ways to eliminate power looping, which again is only viable in long boss fights and achievable by BIS geared players who know exactly what they are doing. So even if WoB gave power, it shouldn't scare the devs into thinking that it will somehow be able to power loop by itself and hence remove any and all source of self power gains of the class. The general Mid-high tier TR players dont power loop and probably never will. However they do enjoy the self buffs provided by the skills that make them gain considerable amount of power.
I think part of the reason TR has such low base weapon damage is because during character design it was realised that the class will have certain capabilities that they *get to keep* so they can boost their power (without looping, which again is a byproduct of a play style by a mere handful of players in the server and not the general game play norms of the class) and can focus on other stats such as recovery to be competitive dps to the other classes (that feel so threatened that they feel the need to come to TR forums and say everything is fine with the nerfs cos TR were, for once being equal in dps with them). Most people here possibly are not very knowledgeable about how power looping actually works other than the people who have been playing the class for a long time, wrote "the" guide, and read "the" said guide to proper understanding.
Removing WoB power gain completely puts TRs at a major disadvantage simply because, x power gained by a class with % higher weapon damage will always deal more damage than x power gained by a TR with % less weapon damage. Surely the other things do factor in but the changes in the "balancing" don't really help with subverting that problem, and instead makes it more and more difficult for TR to deal damage.
If you plan on removing every way of gaining power for the TR (which is not recommended at all) then at least consider increasing the base weapon damage of the class by 10-15%. The community in itself wants to work with the changes and wants to make changes to play style as deemed necessary for best game play experience, but it will not be possible if you dont leave any means of doing that for us and whatever we do leads to subpar overall damage.
I can most truly say that this is INDEED THE WORST EVER UPDATE / balance you could have ever think off. i play a TR with great pleasure in this game also for endgame parts ..still need to do CR thoug but getting there. I truly hope you will remove all the DEBUFF on powers and leave them as there are. the buffs on certain other powers are good as this will make those powers more likely to be used as well then.
i can personaly say that if you do this a LOT OF PLAYERS WILL!!!! leave this game.... this it the future of your game your talking about here and you are personaly KILLING THE GAME!!
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
Just save us all the trouble, put the TR back to where it was good (current before upcoming mod) and separate PvP and PvE 100%. Devs seem to have no idea how bad the TR has been and still don't seem to understand that these changes will destroy the class. The only DPS that will matter here is the GWF... You say you want players to experience as much content in the game as possible (forcing random pug groups for AD was the worst thing ever put in this game by the way!!) and yet you're making it so that once again the TR will be useless and those who truly love the class will be forced to play DC, SW, or GWF, maybe GF to be invited into dungeons... please, once again, I plead with you to stop listening to PvP crying and start listening to your PvE crowd... please....
Just start with a fix for combat advantage, so we can run accurate tests and provide evidences with vids and ACT logs showing the real inpact of the changes you want to push.
I think part of the reason TR has such low base weapon damage is because
you mean, having the second highest weapon damage in the game, just after gwf, is low base weapon damage? lol try with HR's melee weapons, they have about 1/3rd of gwf base weapon damage, i think you are forgetting that TR's have 2 weapons that add base weapon damage, main hand and off hand.
In all honesty, maybe from the looks of it these balances across the board look like 3 step changes. Kill the current meta, step 2 create a new meta for folks to invest in and provide them with a little bit of Flavor change and all whilst making changes via Feedback which would be step 3.
@nooneatza Don't ya worry, I will gladly take DOs for endgame content. I don't mind doing challenging runs once I have figured out the mechanics of the endgame content.
I see so many good comments here but the only ones that confuse me are those from people who don't actually play the TR and are GF and GWF "beaters" who find loopholes in combat and break the game... when you do this kind of thing, it hurts the non "beaters" who struggle to score and get into dungeons.
I think the Devs also need to stop making DPS classes able to tank end game bosses... it makes Paladins who need to be hit for power share petty useless but that's a rant for another day...
Devs, please listen to people like Blur and Trem (who helped me on many occasions improve my toon and my husband a lot), they and they know what they are talking about! Trust them please... I do! They know the class inside and out.
if this happens I really want a refund lol, I worked hard overtime for this character and it's gonna be rammed back up my you know what...
I've not even gotten to end game, I want to enjoy the CODG and T9 runs but now it seems I shall be excluded forever. at 14k+ I am not able to join anything as it is already.
not sure if you are trying to make fun of the destroyer class feature but for your info we do not have high deflect and deflect severity like you guys do and no we don't hide in stealth and for starters
OK first of all, do you see TRs complaining and asking the nerf of GWFs who by they way are statistically the best DPS class since MOD 5/6. Moving past this, lets see what you are saying. Deflect is a stat, if you want high deflect just use the proper gear, ability stats and enchantments, also its pretty much useless in end-game PVE. Deflect severity, yes we have 50% deflect severity as opposed to your 25%, I am perfectly fine to trade it with your HPs and Armor class and general tankyness, deal? Finally "hide in stealth" how many times have you seen PVE TRs hide in stealth? Are you confusing PVE with PVP again?
first of all i don't see GWFs asking for a Tr nerf either it's just that everyone is complaining on how ridiculous the TR dmg is currently in live even if such trs don't have high gear and 2) TR have more than 50% deflect severity and 100% deflect as for HP and armor class they are pretty much useless because in party thnx to powershare and shepherd everyone is at the cap so the stats that u have in deffence are useless and rather be invested somewhere else i don't understand why you guys want to have overpowered class that is not in check if you want to use argument that GWF been best dps since mod 5/6 then by contrast HR GF and even prebuff TRs used to do very good dmg when built properly also TR has been the only dominating class in pvp for god knows how many mods so your argument pretty invalid and incorrect for that matter
I started this game 2.5 years ago. My favorite class is TR. That being said I'm not a numbers cruncher nor am I an expert on this class. The people that got me to where I am are: Blur, Treme, Merigolds, Enyo, Skyye Lakara (my wife), and too many others to type all of their names. These people are patient, knowledgeable, helpful, and know what they are talking about. So reading all above I have nothing to add other than my feelings.
Taking away our damage and our movement speed will cripple this class. It took mod 14 for most other players to know that TRs are a viable class in end game. We actually started to smile and it was actually fun to play. I'm generally on every day and I'm not saying I'm going to quit the game but I'm very displeased with the changes you are forcing on us. I probably will not invest as much money moving forward and probably play my GF who can run circles around anybody (full armor, what a realistic thing this is *sarcasm*).
Developer, please talk to Blur directly, for I'm sure he's willing to help you develop playable changes. I agree that power share is a mistake. I agree that PvP and PvE should be treated as 2 separate games. If not, at least make them different loadouts with different skill trees. Stop penalizing PvE players for what PvP players cry about.
*end of rant* Thank you for listening, ~Romulus Scorpus, Ghost Wolf Warriors~
TR has been the only dominating class in pvp for god knows how many mods so your argument pretty invalid and incorrect for that matter
When I made my TR back in 2013, there wasn't a notation next to him that said only viable in PVP. Yet, for the past 5 years, that's been the only place he's been viable. Save for mod 14 that is, which I missed most of.
Most of the people posting in this tread just want TR's to be a viable/usable class. A class isn't usable when no one will bring them along for a dungeon, or they can only play PVP, or solo content from years ago.
The root of the matter is that no one knows what the TR's roll is in this game. It isn't healing, it isn't buffs or defuffs, it isn't aoe crowd control, it isn't AOE damage, and it isn't single target damage. What is the TR's roll in mod 15.
I feel once we figure that out, because obviously the community and the devs have a major difference of opinion on that. Then we can move on.
If the powers that be say the TR has no roll, well that's that.
what you don't seem to understand is that all these nerfs were made specially to avoid power loops, you just adding power to most of TR's powers is counterproductive.
The changes were made to counter the perma-looping of the overgeared player, something the acerage TR player either doesn't or cannot do.
But removing the Power boosts entirely without providing significant compensation is exactly what has lead to the mass-rejection of the changes in this topic. By providing marginally stronger boosts on a single Daily and putting measures in place by either CD or requiring synergy of powers to optimize correctly it allows for the TR to remain viable without going overboard rather than becoming useless and forcing players to either abandon it or make the other DPS classes suffer as well.
heraldfayez#8520, My friend who I've run many dungeons with... I haven't seen you playing a TR, only GF and GWF. You are very powerful with the classes you play. I've seen you personally kill Strahd in literally 3 hits, I still tell this tale to my guild and alliance. I couldn't believe it was done or even possible, I doubt that very many people would even believe me if I say that I saw you do such a thing... but it is a "beater" technique. Everyone plays their own way. I'd rather spend 3 hours teaching people how to run CR than go through a 10-20 minute run breaking the game. It's very fun to run with you and I jump at the chance at speed runs for end game dungeon chests... this may sound like a contradiction but my point is... I'm out to help people, you're out to win then that's ok too. We all have different goals and play styles. I don't know if you're a PvPer or not but I hope that you will come to understand the issues here and part of the problem here, which I tried to imply earlier is that too many who don't play the class are complaining which is crippling the TRs. Separate PvP mindset from PvE. A TR should be able to slaughter any boss in the game if built right.
I LOATH PvP with a passion, this is no secret but... even in PvP a TR should be assassinating anyone they come across. Why not find better ways to defend against this? Working with team work to out smart a who is TR killing you in PvP, communicating and planning the way it should be. I see so many people not doing this. I'm not saying you do, I know you communicate a plan when going on speed runs. I'm just saying people in general on this point. It's clear and factual that most people hear TR and say "no room in this party for them", including you. Each time you ask me to go on a dungeon with you... what is the first thing I ask you? "How many spots and can my husband come?" He never gets invited on these speed runs which is sad because he never gets to experience this end game content unless I'm organizing a run. I asked you once if you'd come and help us, you turned us down because it wouldn't be fast enough for you... again that's ok for you but try to look outside and see other people's perspectives on this.
Guys, less fighting with GWFs allows the helpful feedback to get noticed easier. 11 Pages of comments already, hard to notice what really matters when a lot of it is TR vs GWF.
first of all i don't see GWFs asking for a Tr nerf either it's just that everyone is complaining on how ridiculous the TR dmg is currently in live even if such trs don't have high gear and 2) TR have more than 50% deflect severity and 100% deflect as for HP and armor class they are pretty much useless because in party thnx to powershare and shepherd everyone is at the cap so the stats that u have in deffence are useless and rather be invested somewhere else i don't understand why you guys want to have overpowered class that is not in check if you want to use argument that GWF been best dps since mod 5/6 then by contrast HR GF and even prebuff TRs used to do very good dmg when built properly also TR has been the only dominating class in pvp for god knows how many mods so your argument pretty invalid and incorrect for that matter
Only this recent mod TRs became viable DPS classes again. Moreover If everyone believed that TRs without even high gear did ridiculous damage then why are they not invited in groups?
TRs have 75% deflect severity and the other classes 50%, so a 25% difference and it really hardly matters in PVE, I'll trade it any time for GWF HPs, armor and tanky feats. No TRs dont start with a free 100% deflect bonus, like any other stat you need to invest in it if you want it to be high.
TRs an overpowered class, not in check ... *blink* *blink* Are we playing the same game? There were pre-buff good TRs yes, I am one of them, I could keep up with GWF damage and even surpass them, but I had to be very well geared, time my combos perfectly and know very well what I was doing. Such TRs had very little room for error, while on the other hand GWFs could get away with murder and moderate gear. To add insult to injury, after a run, quite a few GWFs insulted me and accused me for cheating because how else was it possible that a mere TR dealt more damage than them? What the latest "buff" did was close the unfair gap in terms of skill and gear needed by each DPs class to deal approximately the same damage.
In terms of PVP, 99% of the players don't care, since it has never been balanced! HRs, OPs, GFs, GWFs, TRs etc all broke the PVP at one point or another. Nevertheless I still respect the wishes of the maybe 1% that still PVP, and instead suggest that at-wills/feats/encounters/dailies etc are treated differently in PVP than in PVE, as it already happens for some cases.
not sure if you are trying to make fun of the destroyer class feature but for your info we do not have high deflect and deflect severity like you guys do and no we don't hide in stealth and for starters
OK first of all, do you see TRs complaining and asking the nerf of GWFs who by they way are statistically the best DPS class since MOD 5/6. Moving past this, lets see what you are saying. Deflect is a stat, if you want high deflect just use the proper gear, ability stats and enchantments, also its pretty much useless in end-game PVE. Deflect severity, yes we have 50% deflect severity as opposed to your 25%, I am perfectly fine to trade it with your HPs and Armor class and general tankyness, deal? Finally "hide in stealth" how many times have you seen PVE TRs hide in stealth? Are you confusing PVE with PVP again?
first of all i don't see GWFs asking for a Tr nerf either it's just that everyone is complaining on how ridiculous the TR dmg is currently in live even if such trs don't have high gear and 2) TR have more than 50% deflect severity and 100% deflect as for HP and armor class they are pretty much useless because in party thnx to powershare and shepherd everyone is at the cap so the stats that u have in deffence are useless and rather be invested somewhere else i don't understand why you guys want to have overpowered class that is not in check if you want to use argument that GWF been best dps since mod 5/6 then by contrast HR GF and even prebuff TRs used to do very good dmg when built properly also TR has been the only dominating class in pvp for god knows how many mods so your argument pretty invalid and incorrect for that matter
TRs dmg isnt rediculous. Only from the ones who is using power looping, the rest of us are with pretty normal numbers. Have u ever been turned down as dps on ur gwf cause they wanted a tr ? Ive tried it many times the other way around. Its only been since mod 14 that trs have been on par with other dps. No TR here is saying we need to be the best dps. We are just asking why cryptic wants us to be the worst.
For defence, yes we have 25% more deflect sev that other classes. But do we have temp hit points for doing dmg? And with shepards u get all the defence and deflect stats as we do. And does it even matter? Generally on endgame party none of the dps are in risk of getting killed since there are tanks.
Again how is the tr overpowered without the powerlooping? And i dont think ive seen a single one here say they want powerlooping back, or is sad that its gone. We can manage without it. But remove all self power gain is to much. GWFs have several ways of increasing their own dmg. They can even turn defence and armpen + rec into power. Several encounters and feats increase dmg. We on TR got no where close to the numbers of self increase in dmg that gwf have without the power from dailies. And then add lower base dmg.
And PvP, well most dont do PvP. And like so many have stated, many powers / feats should have PvE and PvP functionality so they can tweek both sides without messing up the other. PvP and PvE is very different and saying tr is strong cause they dominate PvP is just stupid.
Just a complete side note, not referencing meta number data and balancing, etc. This is coming from a person who actually plays D&D.
Flavor wise, TR is a leather armor type class. Now compared that to your heavy metal armor like GF, OP, GWF, even DC and just why does the TR either move at the same rate or slower then these others? If you have ever worn full armor, even just chain, then carried a large weapon and maybe a shield, and try to run... you will not run fast and you will not run far. I did this in Germany through a castle and that was when I was a young man in the US Army, the best shape I have ever been and it was hard.
These armor classes should be the slowest classes in the game. The TR (and HR, CW, & SW) should be 2x as fast as they completely lack the advantages of AC that the armored classes enjoy.
Just another example of how completely wacked NW is to reality or even D&D.
I like this, and this is also my opinion that the classes with heavy armor like GWF/GF/Pally should be slower than classes in pyjamas like CW/TR/HR but in NVO we have a lot of strange things for example:
-Why TR can easy reach 100% deflection chance with 75% deflect severity (85 with potion) and get only 15% of overal damage from other classes? he is tankier than a tank
This is only 1 example, we can write much more of them.
PS. the role of the classes in this game went missing a long time ago
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
Personally, I don't mind a few nerfs here and there. But I don't agree with totally removing out powering up/buffing capabilities.
We need to be competitive and helpful in groups.. In light of these proposed changes, I highly doubt the TR class will be in a good place.
I suggest keeping Whirlwind of Blades as it was, giving us some form of powering up to take advantage of artificers. The dmg, recovery/ap gain lost from that specific nerf is huge.. And given the nerf to cb ( 12% ish dmg loss ) and itc nerfed , we can't power loop anyways without those two. So power looping won't be a thing.
AP gain block from Lurkers should be removed to make it useful.
Also i agree with Tremeliques on an earlier post, where he said you guys should take into account AOC. If and when it gets nerfed, we TR's are screwed ( 30 - 40 % of our dmg comes from AOC ). so it would be a good idea to not reduce too much damage from what we did before to compensate for any future AOC nerfs .
Smoke bomb ticks from AOC should be fixed in my opinion, but keep it's damage where it was and let it have CA out of stealth.
Nerfing Shadow of Demise to 50% is fine by me, as long as that dmg lost can be gained in some shape or form in other ways. Because with the current nerfs to power/power looping, we will do less then 50% of our current damage regardless.
Rendering us half as effective and worthless in group content . TR's need to be useful to be invited to groups, and we always have had that issue. The tendency is to look for GWF'S, not TR's for dps spots.
I'm afraid that removing power looping, reducing dmg from those dailies by removing power all together, along with other nerfs, is way to much for us to be considered competitive.
I like that all trees are trying to get balanced, but that can be done without killing executioner, nerfing is one thing, but destroying is another..
I hope you read this post, along with many other constructive posts from people like Blur, Tremeliques, Mickeypoo, and others who do testing, crunch numbers and know how bad this will effect our beloved class.
Consider some of our suggestions, while maintaining a nerf in some areas. Or just boost the other trees to make them more viable in group settings.(edited) Regards, Galactic Underwear.
not sure if you are trying to make fun of the destroyer class feature but for your info we do not have high deflect and deflect severity like you guys do and no we don't hide in stealth and for starters
OK first of all, do you see TRs complaining and asking the nerf of GWFs who by they way are statistically the best DPS class since MOD 5/6. Moving past this, lets see what you are saying. Deflect is a stat, if you want high deflect just use the proper gear, ability stats and enchantments, also its pretty much useless in end-game PVE. Deflect severity, yes we have 50% deflect severity as opposed to your 25%, I am perfectly fine to trade it with your HPs and Armor class and general tankyness, deal? Finally "hide in stealth" how many times have you seen PVE TRs hide in stealth? Are you confusing PVE with PVP again?
first of all i don't see GWFs asking for a Tr nerf either it's just that everyone is complaining on how ridiculous the TR dmg is currently in live even if such trs don't have high gear and 2) TR have more than 50% deflect severity and 100% deflect as for HP and armor class they are pretty much useless because in party thnx to powershare and shepherd everyone is at the cap so the stats that u have in deffence are useless and rather be invested somewhere else i don't understand why you guys want to have overpowered class that is not in check if you want to use argument that GWF been best dps since mod 5/6 then by contrast HR GF and even prebuff TRs used to do very good dmg when built properly also TR has been the only dominating class in pvp for god knows how many mods so your argument pretty invalid and incorrect for that matter
Says the guy who killed Strahd in 3 hits... Really? You see TR's doing it in 2? (Btw, no it doesn't bother me at all that you kill Strahd in 3 hits, the dude needs killed, I'm glad you can do it fast! LOL) I don't want GWF's nerfed at all, it's nice (and necessary) having reliable damage in a party. As a dps class, a dps class that really can't do anything else, no tanking or healing, unless you have very high life steal, and no buffing the party, TR's should be on par with GWF's, but on average we aren't even close. Not only that, I can't remember the last time I saw a GWF killed in one hit, even with lower item levels. I'm probably about the tankiest rogue around, and it still happens to me every now and then against the bosses... By my numbers it shouldn't happen at all, but somehow it does. GWF's typically do the most damage and hardly ever die in PVE.
(I don't do, and I hate, PVP, so I'm not talking about that. That's a different issue with an easy fix, just have the abilities work differently in PVP which some of them already do, so just continue with that idea...)
TR's die a lot, almost every time somebody drops in endgame stuff, including dungeons, it's usually a TR, I'd say at least 2 to 1 it's a TR more than any other class. We just want to be as viable in our role (which should be a highly mobile, difficult to hit target that strikes with suddenness, doing high amounts of damage, the different paths/feats/etc. give different ways to do this) as other classes are in theirs. As it is we're struggling to be, and with the nerfs we won't be at all. Heck, I'm just trying to survive, that's hard enough! LOL
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited September 2018
Please stop responding to various GWFs coming around. The only thing that should be addressed is the devs and their changes. If someone want to compare how they swing their class e-peen, they are welcome to open a comparison thread.
15
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Comments
My builds will be PvE/PvP fine. I'll screenshot everything before Mod 15 in case there's a horrible enforced respec again. I hate those. They need an option to decline them.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
Flavor wise, TR is a leather armor type class. Now compared that to your heavy metal armor like GF, OP, GWF, even DC and just why does the TR either move at the same rate or slower then these others? If you have ever worn full armor, even just chain, then carried a large weapon and maybe a shield, and try to run... you will not run fast and you will not run far. I did this in Germany through a castle and that was when I was a young man in the US Army, the best shape I have ever been and it was hard.
These armor classes should be the slowest classes in the game. The TR (and HR, CW, & SW) should be 2x as fast as they completely lack the advantages of AC that the armored classes enjoy.
Just another example of how completely wacked NW is to reality or even D&D.
> what you don't seem to understand is that all these nerfs were made specially to avoid power loops, you just adding power to most of TR's powers is counterproductive.
really? movement speed and skill nerfs were made to avoid power loops? try again.
I think part of the reason TR has such low base weapon damage is because during character design it was realised that the class will have certain capabilities that they *get to keep* so they can boost their power (without looping, which again is a byproduct of a play style by a mere handful of players in the server and not the general game play norms of the class) and can focus on other stats such as recovery to be competitive dps to the other classes (that feel so threatened that they feel the need to come to TR forums and say everything is fine with the nerfs cos TR were, for once being equal in dps with them). Most people here possibly are not very knowledgeable about how power looping actually works other than the people who have been playing the class for a long time, wrote "the" guide, and read "the" said guide to proper understanding.
Removing WoB power gain completely puts TRs at a major disadvantage simply because, x power gained by a class with % higher weapon damage will always deal more damage than x power gained by a TR with % less weapon damage. Surely the other things do factor in but the changes in the "balancing" don't really help with subverting that problem, and instead makes it more and more difficult for TR to deal damage.
If you plan on removing every way of gaining power for the TR (which is not recommended at all) then at least consider increasing the base weapon damage of the class by 10-15%. The community in itself wants to work with the changes and wants to make changes to play style as deemed necessary for best game play experience, but it will not be possible if you dont leave any means of doing that for us and whatever we do leads to subpar overall damage.
i play a TR with great pleasure in this game also for endgame parts ..still need to do CR thoug but getting there.
I truly hope you will remove all the DEBUFF on powers and leave them as there are.
the buffs on certain other powers are good as this will make those powers more likely to be used as well then.
i can personaly say that if you do this a LOT OF PLAYERS WILL!!!! leave this game.... this it the future of your game your talking about here and you are personaly KILLING THE GAME!!
greets danny.
Just save us all the trouble, put the TR back to where it was good (current before upcoming mod) and separate PvP and PvE 100%. Devs seem to have no idea how bad the TR has been and still don't seem to understand that these changes will destroy the class. The only DPS that will matter here is the GWF... You say you want players to experience as much content in the game as possible (forcing random pug groups for AD was the worst thing ever put in this game by the way!!) and yet you're making it so that once again the TR will be useless and those who truly love the class will be forced to play DC, SW, or GWF, maybe GF to be invited into dungeons... please, once again, I plead with you to stop listening to PvP crying and start listening to your PvE crowd... please....
~Skyye Lakara, Ghost Wolf Warriors~
Just start with a fix for combat advantage, so we can run accurate tests and provide evidences with vids and ACT logs showing the real inpact of the changes you want to push.
@nooneatza Don't ya worry, I will gladly take DOs for endgame content. I don't mind doing challenging runs once I have figured out the mechanics of the endgame content.
TR + HR + OP + SW
Nikostratos
I think the Devs also need to stop making DPS classes able to tank end game bosses... it makes Paladins who need to be hit for power share petty useless but that's a rant for another day...
Devs, please listen to people like Blur and Trem (who helped me on many occasions improve my toon and my husband a lot), they and they know what they are talking about! Trust them please... I do! They know the class inside and out.
~Skyye Lakara, Ghost Wolf Warriors~
I've not even gotten to end game, I want to enjoy the CODG and T9 runs but now it seems I shall be excluded forever. at 14k+ I am not able to join anything as it is already.
and 2) TR have more than 50% deflect severity and 100% deflect as for HP and armor class they are pretty much useless
i don't understand why you guys want to have overpowered class that is not in check if you want to use argument that GWF been best dps since mod 5/6 then by contrast HR GF and even prebuff TRs used to do very good dmg when built properly also TR has been the only dominating class in pvp for god knows how many mods so your argument pretty invalid and incorrect for that matter
I started this game 2.5 years ago. My favorite class is TR. That being said I'm not a numbers cruncher nor am I an expert on this class. The people that got me to where I am are: Blur, Treme, Merigolds, Enyo, Skyye Lakara (my wife), and too many others to type all of their names. These people are patient, knowledgeable, helpful, and know what they are talking about. So reading all above I have nothing to add other than my feelings.
Taking away our damage and our movement speed will cripple this class. It took mod 14 for most other players to know that TRs are a viable class in end game. We actually started to smile and it was actually fun to play. I'm generally on every day and I'm not saying I'm going to quit the game but I'm very displeased with the changes you are forcing on us. I probably will not invest as much money moving forward and probably play my GF who can run circles around anybody (full armor, what a realistic thing this is *sarcasm*).
Developer, please talk to Blur directly, for I'm sure he's willing to help you develop playable changes. I agree that power share is a mistake. I agree that PvP and PvE should be treated as 2 separate games. If not, at least make them different loadouts with different skill trees. Stop penalizing PvE players for what PvP players cry about.
*end of rant* Thank you for listening,
~Romulus Scorpus, Ghost Wolf Warriors~
Most of the people posting in this tread just want TR's to be a viable/usable class. A class isn't usable when no one will bring them along for a dungeon, or they can only play PVP, or solo content from years ago.
The root of the matter is that no one knows what the TR's roll is in this game. It isn't healing, it isn't buffs or defuffs, it isn't aoe crowd control, it isn't AOE damage, and it isn't single target damage. What is the TR's roll in mod 15.
I feel once we figure that out, because obviously the community and the devs have a major difference of opinion on that. Then we can move on.
If the powers that be say the TR has no roll, well that's that.
But removing the Power boosts entirely without providing significant compensation is exactly what has lead to the mass-rejection of the changes in this topic. By providing marginally stronger boosts on a single Daily and putting measures in place by either CD or requiring synergy of powers to optimize correctly it allows for the TR to remain viable without going overboard rather than becoming useless and forcing players to either abandon it or make the other DPS classes suffer as well.
My friend who I've run many dungeons with... I haven't seen you playing a TR, only GF and GWF. You are very powerful with the classes you play. I've seen you personally kill Strahd in literally 3 hits, I still tell this tale to my guild and alliance. I couldn't believe it was done or even possible, I doubt that very many people would even believe me if I say that I saw you do such a thing... but it is a "beater" technique. Everyone plays their own way. I'd rather spend 3 hours teaching people how to run CR than go through a 10-20 minute run breaking the game. It's very fun to run with you and I jump at the chance at speed runs for end game dungeon chests... this may sound like a contradiction but my point is... I'm out to help people, you're out to win then that's ok too. We all have different goals and play styles. I don't know if you're a PvPer or not but I hope that you will come to understand the issues here and part of the problem here, which I tried to imply earlier is that too many who don't play the class are complaining which is crippling the TRs. Separate PvP mindset from PvE. A TR should be able to slaughter any boss in the game if built right.
I LOATH PvP with a passion, this is no secret but... even in PvP a TR should be assassinating anyone they come across. Why not find better ways to defend against this? Working with team work to out smart a who is TR killing you in PvP, communicating and planning the way it should be. I see so many people not doing this. I'm not saying you do, I know you communicate a plan when going on speed runs. I'm just saying people in general on this point. It's clear and factual that most people hear TR and say "no room in this party for them", including you. Each time you ask me to go on a dungeon with you... what is the first thing I ask you? "How many spots and can my husband come?" He never gets invited on these speed runs which is sad because he never gets to experience this end game content unless I'm organizing a run. I asked you once if you'd come and help us, you turned us down because it wouldn't be fast enough for you... again that's ok for you but try to look outside and see other people's perspectives on this.
Also keep in mind this is a TR thread.
~Skyye Lakara, Ghost Wolf Warriors~
11 Pages of comments already, hard to notice what really matters when a lot of it is TR vs GWF.
TRs have 75% deflect severity and the other classes 50%, so a 25% difference and it really hardly matters in PVE, I'll trade it any time for GWF HPs, armor and tanky feats. No TRs dont start with a free 100% deflect bonus, like any other stat you need to invest in it if you want it to be high.
TRs an overpowered class, not in check ... *blink* *blink* Are we playing the same game? There were pre-buff good TRs yes, I am one of them, I could keep up with GWF damage and even surpass them, but I had to be very well geared, time my combos perfectly and know very well what I was doing. Such TRs had very little room for error, while on the other hand GWFs could get away with murder and moderate gear. To add insult to injury, after a run, quite a few GWFs insulted me and accused me for cheating because how else was it possible that a mere TR dealt more damage than them? What the latest "buff" did was close the unfair gap in terms of skill and gear needed by each DPs class to deal approximately the same damage.
In terms of PVP, 99% of the players don't care, since it has never been balanced! HRs, OPs, GFs, GWFs, TRs etc all broke the PVP at one point or another. Nevertheless I still respect the wishes of the maybe 1% that still PVP, and instead suggest that at-wills/feats/encounters/dailies etc are treated differently in PVP than in PVE, as it already happens for some cases.
For defence, yes we have 25% more deflect sev that other classes. But do we have temp hit points for doing dmg? And with shepards u get all the defence and deflect stats as we do. And does it even matter? Generally on endgame party none of the dps are in risk of getting killed since there are tanks.
Again how is the tr overpowered without the powerlooping? And i dont think ive seen a single one here say they want powerlooping back, or is sad that its gone. We can manage without it. But remove all self power gain is to much. GWFs have several ways of increasing their own dmg. They can even turn defence and armpen + rec into power. Several encounters and feats increase dmg. We on TR got no where close to the numbers of self increase in dmg that gwf have without the power from dailies. And then add lower base dmg.
And PvP, well most dont do PvP. And like so many have stated, many powers / feats should have PvE and PvP functionality so they can tweek both sides without messing up the other. PvP and PvE is very different and saying tr is strong cause they dominate PvP is just stupid.
-Why TR can easy reach 100% deflection chance with 75% deflect severity (85 with potion) and get only 15% of overal damage from other classes? he is tankier than a tank
This is only 1 example, we can write much more of them.
PS. the role of the classes in this game went missing a long time ago
Personally, I don't mind a few nerfs here and there. But I don't agree with totally removing out powering up/buffing capabilities.
We need to be competitive and helpful in groups.. In light of these proposed changes, I highly doubt the TR class will be in a good place.
I suggest keeping Whirlwind of Blades as it was, giving us some form of powering up to take advantage of artificers.
The dmg, recovery/ap gain lost from that specific nerf is huge..
And given the nerf to cb ( 12% ish dmg loss ) and itc nerfed , we can't power loop anyways without those two.
So power looping won't be a thing.
AP gain block from Lurkers should be removed to make it useful.
Also i agree with Tremeliques on an earlier post, where he said you guys should take into account AOC. If and when it gets nerfed, we TR's are screwed ( 30 - 40 % of our dmg comes from AOC ). so it would be a good idea to not reduce too much damage from what we did before to compensate for any future AOC nerfs .
Smoke bomb ticks from AOC should be fixed in my opinion, but keep it's damage where it was and let it have CA out of stealth.
Nerfing Shadow of Demise to 50% is fine by me, as long as that dmg lost can be gained in some shape or form in other ways.
Because with the current nerfs to power/power looping, we will do less then 50% of our current damage regardless.
Rendering us half as effective and worthless in group content . TR's need to be useful to be invited to groups, and we always have had that issue. The tendency is to look for GWF'S, not TR's for dps spots.
I'm afraid that removing power looping, reducing dmg from those dailies by removing power all together, along with other nerfs, is way to much for us to be considered competitive.
I like that all trees are trying to get balanced, but that can be done without killing executioner, nerfing is one thing, but destroying is another..
I hope you read this post, along with many other constructive posts from people like Blur, Tremeliques, Mickeypoo, and others who do testing, crunch numbers and know how bad this will effect our beloved class.
Consider some of our suggestions, while maintaining a nerf in some areas. Or just boost the other trees to make them more viable in group settings.(edited)
Regards, Galactic Underwear.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuXA3g-lRUlpMIOe6QSgeIA
Says the guy who killed Strahd in 3 hits... Really? You see TR's doing it in 2? (Btw, no it doesn't bother me at all that you kill Strahd in 3 hits, the dude needs killed, I'm glad you can do it fast! LOL) I don't want GWF's nerfed at all, it's nice (and necessary) having reliable damage in a party. As a dps class, a dps class that really can't do anything else, no tanking or healing, unless you have very high life steal, and no buffing the party, TR's should be on par with GWF's, but on average we aren't even close. Not only that, I can't remember the last time I saw a GWF killed in one hit, even with lower item levels. I'm probably about the tankiest rogue around, and it still happens to me every now and then against the bosses... By my numbers it shouldn't happen at all, but somehow it does. GWF's typically do the most damage and hardly ever die in PVE.
(I don't do, and I hate, PVP, so I'm not talking about that. That's a different issue with an easy fix, just have the abilities work differently in PVP which some of them already do, so just continue with that idea...)
TR's die a lot, almost every time somebody drops in endgame stuff, including dungeons, it's usually a TR, I'd say at least 2 to 1 it's a TR more than any other class. We just want to be as viable in our role (which should be a highly mobile, difficult to hit target that strikes with suddenness, doing high amounts of damage, the different paths/feats/etc. give different ways to do this) as other classes are in theirs. As it is we're struggling to be, and with the nerfs we won't be at all. Heck, I'm just trying to survive, that's hard enough! LOL