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M15: Devoted Cleric Class Changes

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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    adinosii said:

    You bought a Dread enchant, keep it it´s fine

    Actually, not really. Dread is good for high-Crit builds, but a properly built power-sharing AC DC will typically have low Crit - so Dread really does not help the party. That's why the general advice for AC DCs is to go with Frost.

    About gear we do not need to discus, do we? This game throws gear after every player if dungeons or hunts actually.

    It is significantly harder to get the best gear for an AC DC than a DO DC. The Vivified Primal gear is pretty good for a DO and trivially easy to get - Baravian Lord is pretty much BiS for DO, but somewhat harder to get. An AC, on the other hand, has to mix'n'match...and some of the BiS pieces take quite a while to obtain.

    You got your AC DC in one day or less.

    You can make an AC easily...but going from a BiS DO to a BiS AC takes a bit more than a day, sorry.

    First of, I don´t talk about getting BIS and min-maxing, that´s what few player do maybe in absence of other hobbies or chars :)
    You can build a very good AC in short just by switching some gear and slotting some stones and by that run every content you like to do. Some of you pretty much think this is all about maxed player ? Those ones are by far the rarest species in NWO, and the worst performing on PC tbh (some of them).

    Dread enchant:"Reduce the defense of PVP targets by 45% and the damage resistance of PVE targets by 5%.
    Once every 5 seconds, reduce target enemy damage resistance by 5% for 4 seconds when you land a critical strike once every 5 seconds"
    -> It´s not about your personal dps as AC/DC, it is about that debuff 5%+5%, second lasting 4 second, so even having low crit like 40% (wich is hard to prevent at r14 bonds), you will refresh that debuff in a second , and on the other hand you can switch to dps having full benefit, watch tooltips above.

    Gear:
    Get that Decaying head, Executioners Braces, spending 3k+ power, get Faithlords armor or some of those 540IL like Seer´s or Darklord`s armor buffing power vs singel arget +2000 or 250 per teammember. Get restored Primal resoration boots or Faithlords.
    Ring of Gravestriker +4 and +5, you may have that allready as 90% of player got +4, in case they play this game.
    3x companion gear rank 4/5, heroic (power/arp) or Fierce (power/arp) not that expensive.

    If you actually play this game (?), you will have a lot of this stuff allready, in case you did not throw it away 3 times, same as you got a companion with +4 or +5 gear , if you do run a companion.
    Slot Silveries rank 13/14 and in case your Recovery is allready far over 20k, put your Brutals inside or Black ice or Cruel (power/recov) or what ever you run with.
    Slot insignia, pick Assassins Covenant 2 times and Artificers persuation+ Shepards Devotion+xy, you allready got mounts and Insignia I assume...

    Only artifact are annyoing to build up a bit, agreed, Heart of the Black dragon (stupid synergy with Artificers) or DC sigil as active one. Sigil of Hunter, Symbol of Air/Fire, but you can also stick with your Sigil of Controller and put all recovery inside that companion, to buff recovery.
    I run Artropal waist and neck, done. And please don´t tell me that you have no AD to buy those ones or not able to level them up. I got 3 chars active and got PVP, dps setup/buff setup, same as I allread got tons of equip in my bank or deleted it.
    All those guys that min max and play for years got tons of stuff, not knowing where to put it !

    Just in case this is your first mayor nerf (wich it is not, you got alternatives).
    I think I rebuild chars so often, same as respecced them, if for PVP or PVE or dps/support or buff, endless times.
    That´s the game , otherwise think about stop playing F2P mmo.

    The solution for DO DC may take it´s time, it allways was a problem to the class having one role and two paragons to fill that role.
    Complaints and crying in this thread definitely kill or outweights any effort to get or hear constructive solution in this threat.
    AS said even by a developer , a seconds role or ablility to run as dps is the goal and the logic one tbh, otherwise it would be benefitial to delete one of two paragons to end this drama (for all classes) as some in here allready proposed.
    It just burns too much energy and menpower at devs side, same as complaints and frustration on players side.

    Other alternatives? Nerf AC down on DO level, take away powerbuffs... other soulution buff DO on AC level and go on as it was for 4-5 years now.
    Give TI a 30% dps boost for all player in your group or simply all allies to assure it will not drop of against a BIS build AC with 70k+ basepower... happy that way?

    * just read that : A 10% partybuff and no debuff any more, adding HG 35% + 27% (PoD) debuff lifts DO back over all other supporter ingame SW/CW/Hunter/GF again, having tools like mitigation and speedbuffs on top, double DC is back in the race then.
    Glad that "the crying" may end now, "small steps" as @noworries#8859 said :)
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User



    One thing players have mentioned in this thread is that if we're going to focus on making one of the paths more DPS focused then we should allow DCs to be able to queue as DPS. I'll start with directly saying that won't happen in M15. That said, we are exploring giving some classes more flexibility in their queuing options, based on their paragon path, in M16. It is way too early to be discussing M16 as it is early in development, but I did want to point out future considerations and how overall balance and player experience adjustments are ongoing.

    Can we get some buffs and reworks to improve our dps first in M15 while options to queue as dps shift to M16? We still has some junk powers and feats to be reworked. Hammer of Fate cluncky animation and its pity dps (and it is even a single target power... a capstone paragon specific daily.... which deal damage lesser than at-will in some cases... and can easily lost of target if target hide behind a stone or get out of range...)


    Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.

    Thanks for these changes. In addition to these changes, as a responce to those low IL afkdo blamer, I think there can be an additional restriction to the party buff component. As proposed by someone before we can tied TI to crit chance with a 0.2 ratio. At 11k IL most DODC will reach 50% crit which equates to 10% buff while gear progression to 18k will be more meaningful as it will slowly increase DODC's TI buff to 20% at minimum 16k IL. In this way, I believe low IL afkdo will be punished hard and there will be little to none incentive for their teammate for keeping them afk in party.

    @noworries#8859 There are two more issues left unreply. The first one is the revert of BotS at will divinity gain changes, second is ePoD debuff nerf. Given that debuff part is from empowered version + single target debuff skill + long cd + long animation, I think the nerf to PoD is too much. Lets make it this way, a single target debuff skill that need to be fully empowered and takes very long time to prepare and cast is barely stronger than a normal aoe debuff skill, this doesnt make sense right?
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    I´d ask for PoD getting a slightly better animationtime on top.
    Not sure if allready mentioned somewhere. Reapplying ePoD deletes all that damage at least on that dummy, wich lead to zero dps in a buffer group.
    Maybe PoD should trigger being renewed, especially in case DO should have any option to deal dps in the future. There is no sense investing 3 stacks into ePoD and killing all the damage by reapplying that debuff.
    Maybe it was never ment to be reapplied before it runs out, but cryptic, you implented feats and capstones that reduce CD, so fix it please in case that is no Dummy bug ? @balanced#2849
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    > @thefiresidecat said:
    > our dps is as weak as a baby kitten.
    >
    >
    > All other things aside, I'd definitely disagree there. Our DPS is situational due to Avatar's restricted uptime, but our burst is not bad.
    >
    >
    >
    > compared to other dps classes it certainly seems to be less. we can get around. we can solo things. but we don't come close to other dps support classes in most content. so with our dps as it is now, and still being expected to have a supportish type load out as a single dc. (since we're talking RAQ) if we were to go in as a dps we'd not really be doing anyone any favors. it was in response to this "I think DODC could get into a random queue as a dps without TI. DODC isnt even a second tier DPS but they aren't so bad they'd get kicked as long as they aren't the primary dps If a DO/DC queued into a random without TI now, they'd be vote kicked for sure."
    >
    > Compared to every other secondary dps... we are weak as a kitten in this situation.

    My main point here is that it wouldn’t take much to make DO a more fully functional DPS option, less than some think.

    I’ve done tong as primary DPS on DO in a normal party. I’ve also done it as primary DPS+tank in a 5 DC run in tong. Neither run was faster than taking a true DPS, but even the 5x DC run in which I was the only DPS DC running with a 16k AC and 13k or lower characters otherwise was completed in under 45 min, and we had never tried that experiment before.

    DO does surprisingly well when built for DPS, even while buffing. A DPS role for DO wouldn’t be unfeasible with further tweaking.
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  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    It's not about your personal dps as AC/DC, it is about that debuff 5%+5%, second lasting 4 second, so even having low crit like 40% (which is hard to prevent at r14 bonds),

    I don't disagree that you can build a mediocre AC in a day. To repeat, I'm talking about going from a BiS DO to a BiS AC

    And, a BiS AC will probably not have anything near 40% crit chance - not with silveries in all enchant slots on the companion to get decent recovery.

    If you actually play this game

    If? I have some thousands of hours of playtime on my DC. I would think it qualifies.

    Just in case this is your first mayor nerf

    I was around when the only DC that was wanted was a "hastebot" (at the time of the OP "perma-bubble"). I was around when DCs were only wanted for healing - before there were SWs or OPs....in fact, my Catastophe cape and "Protector of the Enclave" title should give you an idea of how long I have been here. So, yes, I have seen changes, and have had to adapt.

    This is, however, the second worst change I have seen (the worst being the EE fiasco, but that's a different story)
    Hoping for improvements...
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User


    So the question ... why does anyone care? Why not just swap to an AC build? Personally I have both builds on my DC already. But for many newer and lower geared players, they lack the power and recovery to make a useful AC power buffing build.

    To the newer and lower geared players, this will just be another across the board nerf. It does not affect them joining group. They either queue solo or the pre-made groups at their level aren't too discriminating about the healer type. This change will make soloing easier for lower geared DOs. Overall, lower geared DODCs will benefit from this change.

    The only people who care about this change are the DOs that are about to lose their preferential status in end-game runs. And non-DODC buffers who will have more opportunities to get into end-game runs.
  • larmdyrlarmdyr Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    "There is no denying there are a lot of thoughts/feelings/opinions on these changes. Overall we are putting a lot of effort into dialing in the balance of Neverwinter and that kind of effort will come with changes that some people will like, others will hate and some will be indifferent to."

    Let's talk balance :)

    I'll bypass the concept you stripped the gameplay for the class I choose since I started this game and just quote you on how poorly you've done it.

    "Finally, Avatar of the Divine has been revamped a bit to be more damage oriented and to allow for a heavy damage build. While we don’t think Clerics will be jumping into the ranks of high DPS, we think this will give them a very viable solo-gameplay option. "

    So you're saying they're a DPS that can't DPS? Is this like, congratulations, your character can do damage thus we can define it as a DPS? Please, by all means screw over the style of gameplay I invested my time into making. But don't say your aim is to balance it, after declaring that not balancing is the way you aim to keep the 2nd DC out of a party.
  • shadrakt2shadrakt2 Member Posts: 149 Arc User


    Brand of the Sun: This power will no longer generate Divine Power while the player is in Divine Mode, this should fix an "issue" where players would sometimes not leave Divine Mode after casting all 3 divine encounter powers

    THANK YOU!!! XD

  • greyjay1greyjay1 Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    @noworries#8859
    I think your approach to "balance" the DC is very good, I say that as someone who plays both: a bis AC and an almost bis DO.

    However, I think BTS it too strong compared to FF.
    The slow of FF is very underwhelming and the dmg mitigation of BTS is actually useful, keeping the DMG-buff on the already "better" power seems like a bad choice to me.

    You could keep FF as is and
    BTS could have the dmg mitigation increased by +5% per stack of Empowered or affect all enemies withing 10/20/30y (using 1/2/3 stacks).
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    There is no denying there are a lot of thoughts/feelings/opinions on these changes. Overall we are putting a lot of effort into dialing in the balance of Neverwinter and that kind of effort will come with changes that some people will like, others will hate and some will be indifferent to.

    I do want to say that this is not the end of class balance adjustments. We are planning on more in M16 as well. Getting the balance in an MMO in a good place is always a lot of work and, when its been as imbalanced as Neverwinter has been for a while now, it is that much more.

    One thing players have mentioned in this thread is that if we're going to focus on making one of the paths more DPS focused then we should allow DCs to be able to queue as DPS. I'll start with directly saying that won't happen in M15. That said, we are exploring giving some classes more flexibility in their queuing options, based on their paragon path, in M16. It is way too early to be discussing M16 as it is early in development, but I did want to point out future considerations and how overall balance and player experience adjustments are ongoing.

    An immediate response would be then why not wait until M16 to do any of these changes? Players have said repeatedly in the past that they'd prefer smaller ongoing changed to holding off entirely until everything can be done at once. On our end, it also makes more sense as 1) often times all the changes at once would simply be too big to complete in a single module and 2) smaller groups of changes over time allows us to fine tune them to get in a better place as we continue to work on a given system/class/balance overall.

    At this point some of you are probably saying "None of that matters to me, revert the nerfs you made to my paragon path!"

    We do realize these changes may feel a bit heavy handed and so there is one adjustment we think will help make them feel a bit better.

    Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.

    Edit: typed out the wrong thing, edited the above change to Terrifying Insight

    Look all, the Devs came in and spoke and confirmed what I have been saying...

    Mod 15 is simply a step in giving all classes two roles for Q and should happen by mod 16. To do this they need to adjust classes so that one paragon path is X and the other is Y. For DC that AC will be healer/buffer and DO could be DPS.

    I'm looking forward to this. Thank you @noworries#8859 for following up.

    Like I stated, there was a communication miss here that should have happened prior to releasing mod 15 changes, it would have been easier for the players to swallow if they had an idea on what the long term goal for the game is.

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    adinosii said:

    It's not about your personal dps as AC/DC, it is about that debuff 5%+5%, second lasting 4 second, so even having low crit like 40% (which is hard to prevent at r14 bonds),

    I don't disagree that you can build a mediocre AC in a day. To repeat, I'm talking about going from a BiS DO to a BiS AC

    And, a BiS AC will probably not have anything near 40% crit chance - not with silveries in all enchant slots on the companion to get decent recovery.

    If you actually play this game

    If? I have some thousands of hours of playtime on my DC. I would think it qualifies.

    Just in case this is your first mayor nerf

    I was around when the only DC that was wanted was a "hastebot" (at the time of the OP "perma-bubble"). I was around when DCs were only wanted for healing - before there were SWs or OPs....in fact, my Catastophe cape and "Protector of the Enclave" title should give you an idea of how long I have been here. So, yes, I have seen changes, and have had to adapt.

    This is, however, the second worst change I have seen (the worst being the EE fiasco, but that's a different story)
    Can´t tell about beta, but since mod 4 this class was asked for, never was completely useless like others, same as DO was a stepchild before TI overbuff.
    The class was allways build for support, allways felt like a buffbot somehow, it´s a choice you do at the start of the game.
    4 out of 5 classes these days are build for support/buff. Some did not chose to run a supporter but are forced to do so 24/7, think about that. Some chose a tank, some chose a striker but are not wanted to run as.
    DC´s tend to complaint on a high level , even they chose a class with more or less one role ->support, wich is the core of the problem, 1 role 2 path... where to go, wich to prefer without making a synergy too strong ?

    I am not BIS (16k+ with only one legend companion 13/14 ench.) and my stats are like 56k basepower (unbuffed), buffed 24k recovery (only 3x r13 silveries) and 40% critrate having 13 bondings on that char. He runs 510 er rings from chult (1 offense1 defense) and avatar as DO and does not have issues to double daily at some bosses using DC sigil, near constant.
    Running companion gear +4 would be the better choice maybe but I can´t see the piont why to go on there.
    Popping my other artifact every 15 sec my recovery is at a level like 35-45k since my power as AC goes up to +130-170k if all buffs run at dummy, due to Artificers insignia boni.
    There is no need to stack further power or stats in my eyes to get a party through every content with those powerbuffs on top of HG+BtS + dDG+exalt and debuffs 10%+15%+17.5%.
    Recovery is my go for and AP gain by sure, i did not even try to invest more into insignia on top to max artificers or run Artificer influence, it is allready an absurd buff to me.
    This class is beyond every other class concnering buffs , miles between them. No content is a real challenge, except Qing RAQ...
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    shadrakt2 said:

    THANK YOU!!! XD

    ???

    Have you actually tried it? maybe a bit more convenient, but in other ways much worse than it was before, and makes having a proper rotation somewhat harder. This is, if anythng a pretty significant nerf. I do not think thanks are due.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    There is no denying there are a lot of thoughts/feelings/opinions on these changes. Overall we are putting a lot of effort into dialing in the balance of Neverwinter and that kind of effort will come with changes that some people will like, others will hate and some will be indifferent to.

    I do want to say that this is not the end of class balance adjustments. We are planning on more in M16 as well. Getting the balance in an MMO in a good place is always a lot of work and, when its been as imbalanced as Neverwinter has been for a while now, it is that much more.

    One thing players have mentioned in this thread is that if we're going to focus on making one of the paths more DPS focused then we should allow DCs to be able to queue as DPS. I'll start with directly saying that won't happen in M15. That said, we are exploring giving some classes more flexibility in their queuing options, based on their paragon path, in M16. It is way too early to be discussing M16 as it is early in development, but I did want to point out future considerations and how overall balance and player experience adjustments are ongoing.

    An immediate response would be then why not wait until M16 to do any of these changes? Players have said repeatedly in the past that they'd prefer smaller ongoing changed to holding off entirely until everything can be done at once. On our end, it also makes more sense as 1) often times all the changes at once would simply be too big to complete in a single module and 2) smaller groups of changes over time allows us to fine tune them to get in a better place as we continue to work on a given system/class/balance overall.

    At this point some of you are probably saying "None of that matters to me, revert the nerfs you made to my paragon path!"

    We do realize these changes may feel a bit heavy handed and so there is one adjustment we think will help make them feel a bit better.

    Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.

    Edit: typed out the wrong thing, edited the above change to Terrifying Insight

    Look all, the Devs came in and spoke and confirmed what I have been saying...

    Mod 15 is simply a step in giving all classes two roles for Q and should happen by mod 16. To do this they need to adjust classes so that one paragon path is X and the other is Y. For DC that AC will be healer/buffer and DO could be DPS.

    I'm looking forward to this. Thank you @noworries#8859 for following up.

    Like I stated, there was a communication miss here that should have happened prior to releasing mod 15 changes, it would have been easier for the players to swallow if they had an idea on what the long term goal for the game is.

    That´s nearly the same comment they did after the latest big balance >2 years ago, maybe copy paste :)
    And I assure you the same comment, devs put into every sigle threat concerning single classes, that do not "perform" that good.
    But it is indeed a direction pointed at, not that I believe in getting there in mod 16 or 17 or 18 :)
  • kiraskytowerkiraskytower Member Posts: 455 Arc User


    Remember that in 1DC meta DO will still have debuffs and WoL. You will still be requested a lot for CRs and Codg. Of course AC have other utilies (spamming CC immunity, hastening light, power interaction with mount bonuses) but that's also subject to change - notice that TRs will lose their power looping mechanic in mod 15 (though CB or whatever it was). Meaning TR will benefit from AC a lot less than now.

    There is no doubt that the power stacking TRs have under Mod 14 is a big reason ACs are so popular for high end content (GWFs, the other "big" DPS class also make very effective use of power). I ran Spellplague last night with my guild/alliance on my AC DC and one of the TRs from the alliance (a 14K TR or so) commented that during the second boss fight his power had reached 720K from my buffs (and the OP with "Aura Gifts").

    TRs lose this benefit under Mod 15 (which I think is really going to hurt them for high end content), but I think we will still see the "in demand" DC for groups being an AC DC because the potential for adding to the party's DPS is higher with Power sharing.
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  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    There is no doubt that the power stacking TRs have under Mod 14 is a big reason ACs are so popular for high end content (GWFs, the other "big" DPS class also make very effective use of power).

    Indeed. I would not have been surprised to see powersharing limited somehow, but I guess that might happen in Mod 16. Not really relevant here and now, though.

    Hoping for improvements...
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 324 Arc User

    There is no denying there are a lot of thoughts/feelings/opinions on these changes. Overall we are putting a lot of effort into dialing in the balance of Neverwinter and that kind of effort will come with changes that some people will like, others will hate and some will be indifferent to.

    I do want to say that this is not the end of class balance adjustments. We are planning on more in M16 as well. Getting the balance in an MMO in a good place is always a lot of work and, when its been as imbalanced as Neverwinter has been for a while now, it is that much more.

    One thing players have mentioned in this thread is that if we're going to focus on making one of the paths more DPS focused then we should allow DCs to be able to queue as DPS. I'll start with directly saying that won't happen in M15. That said, we are exploring giving some classes more flexibility in their queuing options, based on their paragon path, in M16. It is way too early to be discussing M16 as it is early in development, but I did want to point out future considerations and how overall balance and player experience adjustments are ongoing.

    An immediate response would be then why not wait until M16 to do any of these changes? Players have said repeatedly in the past that they'd prefer smaller ongoing changed to holding off entirely until everything can be done at once. On our end, it also makes more sense as 1) often times all the changes at once would simply be too big to complete in a single module and 2) smaller groups of changes over time allows us to fine tune them to get in a better place as we continue to work on a given system/class/balance overall.

    At this point some of you are probably saying "None of that matters to me, revert the nerfs you made to my paragon path!"

    We do realize these changes may feel a bit heavy handed and so there is one adjustment we think will help make them feel a bit better.

    Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.

    Edit: typed out the wrong thing, edited the above change to Terrifying Insight

    may feel a bit heavy? Killing the DO DC? Why can't I build for the TI Buff?
    20 % of my CRIT rate is TI Buff? Then only BIS guys can run all.

    If you hate the double DC why not don't allow 2 DC's in 5 man public queues?
    Adjust the drop rate for public queues so people want to run them:

    The main Problem I have now: If you kill the DO (my class) - and you do - I can't wait for mod 16 and doing no progress until then. No runs means no drops and no drops mean no progress no income.
    Sure I can run etos all day and salvage for AD to be rich until mod 16 drops but...... hey no more salvage for me.
    If you check my xbox profile and see how many Dungeons I run - calculate the double DC I run. I bet it's less than 10 %.

    I really don't like that there is only one right way to play for a DC and thats AC. I build all for max my buffs/debuffs.
    And I really can't understand why you decide to kill my class with the comment wait for mod16......

  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 324 Arc User

    adinosii said:

    You bought a Dread enchant, keep it it´s fine

    Actually, not really. Dread is good for high-Crit builds, but a properly built power-sharing AC DC will typically have low Crit - so Dread really does not help the party. That's why the general advice for AC DCs is to go with Frost.

    About gear we do not need to discus, do we? This game throws gear after every player if dungeons or hunts actually.

    It is significantly harder to get the best gear for an AC DC than a DO DC. The Vivified Primal gear is pretty good for a DO and trivially easy to get - Baravian Lord is pretty much BiS for DO, but somewhat harder to get. An AC, on the other hand, has to mix'n'match...and some of the BiS pieces take quite a while to obtain.

    You got your AC DC in one day or less.

    You can make an AC easily...but going from a BiS DO to a BiS AC takes a bit more than a day, sorry.

    First of, I don´t talk about getting BIS and min-maxing, that´s what few player do maybe in absence of other hobbies or chars :)
    ah - but you told me an AC is build in one day and I don't have to change much and get AD back for the brutals?

    The nerf MAINLY hits BIS guys not average DC's. And because of BIS this nerf hits very hard
  • gatorusmcgatorusmc Member Posts: 17 Arc User


    Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.

    Edit: typed out the wrong thing, edited the above change to Terrifying Insight


    Can you take another look at Prophecy of Doom? With Forgemaster's Flame being nerfed to where there's no reason to even slot it, the Doom nerf seems over the top. If anything Doom should have been buffed... Has the slight speed increase made it less clunky?

    What was the reasoning behind changing divine power generation from multiplicative to additive?



    This has been an astounding amount of nerfs to pile onto a class that is really on the bottom when it comes to dps & survivability. It was amusing when I saw my OP was getting an across the board 14% dps increase until I read the DO changes...
  • fns2005fns2005 Member Posts: 335 Arc User
    > @oqupo#0811 said:
    > Will "cheap" low cost AC DC's fill the gap? What will happen to the RAQ and REQ groups with a nerfed dc do? A lot of fbi, msp, tong and cr runs are failing at the moment, most time cause the damage dealers don't have what's needed. With less buffs this can get a real challenge^^.

    This right here - I see struggling runs up ahead.
  • tanais58cranetanais58crane Member Posts: 111 Arc User

    There is no denying there are a lot of thoughts/feelings/opinions on these changes. Overall we are putting a lot of effort into dialing in the balance of Neverwinter and that kind of effort will come with changes that some people will like, others will hate and some will be indifferent to.

    I do want to say that this is not the end of class balance adjustments. We are planning on more in M16 as well. Getting the balance in an MMO in a good place is always a lot of work and, when its been as imbalanced as Neverwinter has been for a while now, it is that much more.

    One thing players have mentioned in this thread is that if we're going to focus on making one of the paths more DPS focused then we should allow DCs to be able to queue as DPS. I'll start with directly saying that won't happen in M15. That said, we are exploring giving some classes more flexibility in their queuing options, based on their paragon path, in M16. It is way too early to be discussing M16 as it is early in development, but I did want to point out future considerations and how overall balance and player experience adjustments are ongoing.

    An immediate response would be then why not wait until M16 to do any of these changes? Players have said repeatedly in the past that they'd prefer smaller ongoing changed to holding off entirely until everything can be done at once. On our end, it also makes more sense as 1) often times all the changes at once would simply be too big to complete in a single module and 2) smaller groups of changes over time allows us to fine tune them to get in a better place as we continue to work on a given system/class/balance overall.

    At this point some of you are probably saying "None of that matters to me, revert the nerfs you made to my paragon path!"

    We do realize these changes may feel a bit heavy handed and so there is one adjustment we think will help make them feel a bit better.

    Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.

    Edit: typed out the wrong thing, edited the above change to Terrifying Insight

    I do enjoy to run with my fellow robe-donning adventurers, so it is good to see you thinking that the downright slaughter of any possibility for many dedicated players to run high-end content at all may not be the best approach.

    Even if it is on second thought.
    The stars are falling, and the old gods silent as death, with the blood sworn to rip you down from the night sky, what cost will pose too high?
  • heavensake#5599 heavensake Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Rather see that Forgemaster flame would still have some use "we all ready have enough useless encounters" than allow a group buff for TI. From all the complaints about TI it is like no DC ever even recalls what it was like before mod 11. The group buff for TI has only been around a short time and yet so many complain like they are loosing something we have always had. Yet Forgemaster is a whole other story and it is a big mistake to nerf it in such ways.
  • hawkeyelhawkeyel Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    dupeks said:

    Terrifying Insight will stay at a 25% buff to self but would now also debuff targets hit by 10% for the whole party.

    To clarify, a debuff is worse than a buff due to diminishing returns.

    I'm hoping you all have a buff rebalance in the works with a similar diminishing returns mechanic, but until that happens the 10% debuff still won't be enough to compensate, and everything I said in my original post still holds. Would you consider making it a 10% buff instead?
    To expand on this point. Will you be putting into place a similar diminished returns mechanic in place for buffs? As long as you do not do this then the need for more than one DPS on a team want change. My question is to the Dev.
  • gatorusmcgatorusmc Member Posts: 17 Arc User

    Rather see that Forgemaster flame would still have some use "we all ready have enough useless encounters" than allow a group buff for TI. From all the complaints about TI it is like no DC ever even recalls what it was like before mod 11. The group buff for TI has only been around a short time and yet so many complain like they are loosing something we have always had. Yet Forgemaster is a whole other story and it is a big mistake to nerf it in such ways.


    AC is more than good, I'd rather they improve DO only Doom instead of a shared power.

  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    An immediate response would be then why not wait until M16 to do any of these changes? Players have said repeatedly in the past that they'd prefer smaller ongoing changed to holding off entirely until everything can be done at once. On our end, it also makes more sense as 1) often times all the changes at once would simply be too big to complete in a single module and 2) smaller groups of changes over time allows us to fine tune them to get in a better place as we continue to work on a given system/class/balance overall.

    This I think is completely understandable however since these balance changes mostly affect Divine Oracle there are still some near useless feats like Second Sight, Benefit of Foresight (since Defense is capped at around 90%) and Power of the Sun (damage reduction is very low at 5% and reducing critical chance does nothing most of the time) while AC got not just 1 or 2 but 3 useful exclusive feats and also some Divine Oracle exclusive powers are very weak like Hammer of Fate (does less damage then encounters) . Prophetic Action while looking good on paper is very underwhelming in practice. The major reason that currently leads to somewhat okay-ish DPS output and greatly higher DPS output then most AC is simply having sufficient Defenses Ignored and high critical chance. So yeah while the minor personal DPS increase through the new TI feat I think is a great solution there are still a few mainly Divine Oracle exclusive feats and powers that could use minor improvements because they currently doesn't offer much in terms or either personal DPS or group protection / utility. Brand of the Sun At-Will does basically nothing DPS-wise, it's probably less then 1% of DO overall DPS even if it's the only At-Will you're using. Even the updated Piercing Light feat which I think is great in the end converts only into maybe around 2.000 more offense stats if you basically redistribute the gained Defenses Ignored into another stat. If the goal is to make DO a bit more into a utility path with some personal DPS some of these powers and feats might benefit from a few small changes.

    Remember that in 1DC meta DO will still have debuffs and WoL. You will still be requested a lot for CRs and Codg. Of course AC have other utilies (spamming CC immunity, hastening light, power interaction with mount bonuses) but that's also subject to change - notice that TRs will lose their power looping mechanic in mod 15 (though CB or whatever it was). Meaning TR will benefit from AC a lot less than now.

    I think it's okay for AC providing more utility. A lower geared AC can still provide a lot of protection for the group even if the power share isn't as impressive as that of endgame ACs. So that's pretty balanced actually. You spam the bubble and everyone is happy. However other than HG which isn't easy to maintain at lower iLvl there isn't really much a DO can offer in terms of protection or utility. One advantage of DO has always been easier Divinity generation which I'm not sure these changes will positively affect in any way and if I think it would probably affect both AC and DO the same.

  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User



    Like I stated, there was a communication miss here that should have happened prior to releasing mod 15 changes, it would have been easier for the players to swallow if they had an idea on what the long term goal for the game is.

    No one trusts long term goals
    hawkeyel said:

    dupeks said:

    Terrifying Insight will stay at a 25% buff to self but would now also debuff targets hit by 10% for the whole party.

    To clarify, a debuff is worse than a buff due to diminishing returns.

    I'm hoping you all have a buff rebalance in the works with a similar diminishing returns mechanic, but until that happens the 10% debuff still won't be enough to compensate, and everything I said in my original post still holds. Would you consider making it a 10% buff instead?
    "@noworries#8859" To expand on this point. Will you be putting into place a similar diminished returns mechanic in place for buffs? As long as you do not do this then the need for more than one DPS on a team want change. My question is to the Dev.
    agreed, if we are ever going to see the end of the 4 support 1 dps meta. There will have be an introduction of diminishing returns on buffs and on power. Then teams will have to be more creative on balancing team makeup to optimize buffs, debuffs, and dps.

    Similarly if they are ever going to enforce true rainbow parties, they are going to have separate aoe damage from single target damage (ex. heavy nerf to aoe damage from lightning) and make a role for controllers. then you could have tank, healer, controller, aoe dps, single target dps or similarly you could have tank, healer, controller, ranged dps, melee dps. But i'm less clear how you can separate the needs of ranged and melee dps. Especially when ranged dps looses out on the buffs that are tied to proximity for distribution.

  • jayjay#5355 jayjay Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    So one things thats bothering me about this change,

    Ive invested heavily on my DO DC and have ignored the ACDC. The changes doesnt really bother me, but my DO will be basically useless for what ive built it. I will have to switch to AC if i would like to continue to play on my DC, otherwise i just wont play on it (which is what i think is going to end up happening).

    Will there be any sort of compensation for DCs? What im mostly upset about is the companions, everything else is easy enough to trade or make again. I've probably close to 2 mil invested in companions, for ACDC i would need a whole new set of companions besides maybe my active.

  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    So one things thats bothering me about this change,

    Ive invested heavily on my DO DC and have ignored the ACDC. The changes doesnt really bother me, but my DO will be basically useless for what ive built it. I will have to switch to AC if i would like to continue to play on my DC, otherwise i just wont play on it (which is what i think is going to end up happening).

    Will there be any sort of compensation for DCs? What im mostly upset about is the companions, everything else is easy enough to trade or make again. I've probably close to 2 mil invested in companions, for ACDC i would need a whole new set of companions besides maybe my active.

    if this next mod doesn't have room for us in reality in end game the things we'd need to replace are:
    leg mount, insignias, artifacts, weapons, neck and waist artifact, enchants. inc weapon, gear armor head arms feet, companions, I might be forgetting something... those are all the things that need to be changed.

    the only benefit of remaining a dc is that the campaigns are all done. you might as well chose another class if you don't like the pacing of the ac.


    however, given the roll back in severity of the nerf I have hope that runs will still want us. it's just not possible for the ac to do evreything they 'd need to do to take over every encounter and daily they lose by not having us. the dc is time gated by 8 seconds for bts and how fast they can get empowerment up.



    have to see final numbers but hopefully what we are left with is equivalent to all the other newly buffed buffer trees.
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