Speaking as of pvp, give it another try and relook at some of our powers like searing light, daunting light etc. In pvp they are completely useless. And please relook into astral shield for Righteous tree. As i said, in pvp we are glass canons without any survivability. We got way too low of a dot damage and non of the instant damage. i hope devs will look into our survivability in PVP.
Anyway I can´t understand how all those DO DC´s went though content without having an AC loadout, since that´s what is asked for a lot, talking about tong/codg etc., switching at bosses. Do you run 24/7 double meta?
One reason you see more calls for an AC is that it is much easier to find a DO, as they can be useful at a lower IL. So, a 2-DC group usually find a DO fairly easily and then struggle for a while spamming the channels to find an AC.
For a single DC group, it really does not matter for a strong group whether you have a DO or AC - you can finish Tong in
wrong - the AC DC is needed for extra protection from AA.
In a weak group last boss in to9g try to run a perma AA ACDC and with the same weaker group run with DODC. ACDC is only needed for Protection. If you run with BIS OP, Power share of AC is nice but not needed you can replace it.
If the group is too weak or needs protection there is no w2ay you want a DO in. And if the DO now also can 't buff the same like AC the even groups without need of Protection of AA will choose an AC over an DO all day.
The do paragon is dead with this changes!
And yes I'm talking for ENDGAME DC's who build theri DC's over the years.
I've done single dc runs of tong. you're supposed to be remain in your do load out til final boss then switch to ac for final boss. totally doable with a do as long as you have load outs. lol.
and how do you run after the changes? full DO still until last boss? Come on man use yourt brain! You know that the AC DC is only DC wanted then and a pure DO will not getting invites.
?? I never argued differently. I was just saying that in the past it wasn't always 2 dc. and that's how you handled it in tong.
0
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I can't say I'm unhappy about the terrifying insight nerf. As a pure heals cleric, I've had a long standing issue with buff/debuff cleric. I think this shifts the cleric priority to where it should be. We are clerics. We keep our party alive. Any buff/debuff we have should focus on that. Now if they would only take out the templock heals, I'd be happy.
This doesn't shift the priority anywhere except not to bring that Paragon Path in most cases.
Clerics are not and have not been great primary healers for...pretty much ever. A DC has to make untenable sacrifices to compete with the kind of output Templocks and Devo OPs manage effortlessly and while still bringing their buffing A-game.
That being said, a buffing DC can still heal respectably with their standard encounters and, in the case of DO in particular, the Repurpose Soul feat. The notion that this change somehow enhances the focus on healing DCs, however, is false; no one wants or needs a DC just to heal.
There is no denying there are a lot of thoughts/feelings/opinions on these changes. Overall we are putting a lot of effort into dialing in the balance of Neverwinter and that kind of effort will come with changes that some people will like, others will hate and some will be indifferent to.
I do want to say that this is not the end of class balance adjustments. We are planning on more in M16 as well. Getting the balance in an MMO in a good place is always a lot of work and, when its been as imbalanced as Neverwinter has been for a while now, it is that much more.
One thing players have mentioned in this thread is that if we're going to focus on making one of the paths more DPS focused then we should allow DCs to be able to queue as DPS. I'll start with directly saying that won't happen in M15. That said, we are exploring giving some classes more flexibility in their queuing options, based on their paragon path, in M16. It is way too early to be discussing M16 as it is early in development, but I did want to point out future considerations and how overall balance and player experience adjustments are ongoing.
An immediate response would be then why not wait until M16 to do any of these changes? Players have said repeatedly in the past that they'd prefer smaller ongoing changed to holding off entirely until everything can be done at once. On our end, it also makes more sense as 1) often times all the changes at once would simply be too big to complete in a single module and 2) smaller groups of changes over time allows us to fine tune them to get in a better place as we continue to work on a given system/class/balance overall.
At this point some of you are probably saying "None of that matters to me, revert the nerfs you made to my paragon path!"
We do realize these changes may feel a bit heavy handed and so there is one adjustment we think will help make them feel a bit better.
Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.
Edit: typed out the wrong thing, edited the above change to Terrifying Insight
There is no denying there are a lot of thoughts/feelings/opinions on these changes. Overall we are putting a lot of effort into dialing in the balance of Neverwinter and that kind of effort will come with changes that some people will like, others will hate and some will be indifferent to.
I do want to say that this is not the end of class balance adjustments. We are planning on more in M16 as well. Getting the balance in an MMO in a good place is always a lot of work and, when its been as imbalanced as Neverwinter has been for a while now, it is that much more.
One thing players have mentioned in this thread is that if we're going to focus on making one of the paths more DPS focused then we should allow DCs to be able to queue as DPS. I'll start with directly saying that won't happen in M15. That said, we are exploring giving some classes more flexibility in their queuing options, based on their paragon path, in M16. It is way too early to be discussing M16 as it is early in development, but I did want to point out future considerations and how overall balance and player experience adjustments are ongoing.
An immediate response would be then why not wait until M16 to do any of these changes? Players have said repeatedly in the past that they'd prefer smaller ongoing changed to holding off entirely until everything can be done at once. On our end, it also makes more sense as 1) often times all the changes at once would simply be too big to complete in a single module and 2) smaller groups of changes over time allows us to fine tune them to get in a better place as we continue to work on a given system/class/balance overall.
At this point some of you are probably saying "None of that matters to me, revert the nerfs you made to my paragon path!"
We do realize these changes may feel a bit heavy handed and so there is one adjustment we think will help make them feel a bit better.
Terrifying Insight will stay at a 25% buff to self but would now also debuff targets hit by 10% for the whole party.
Can't you do a little better than that? We still won't be included in end game with that. everyone else buffing wise is still stronger than us and our dps can't compete with other classes that offer buff debuff and dps. so in short the do still isn't a viable choice against the ac (or any of the other buff debuff classes) the ac will still win the spot. it isnt' even a close competition. do you honestly not care about the investment we make? can you acknowledge that the do has such a different build than the ac that it IS a hardship? it's really not ok. can you throw us more of a bone here? If you can't give us the do as a viable end game choice so it's AC OR DO or even an honest chance to compete against the other buff debuff classes with dps...
can you give us an unbind token so we can move things over to another class that is still wanted?
4
putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
One thing players have mentioned in this thread is that if we're going to focus on making one of the paths more DPS focused then we should allow DCs to be able to queue as DPS. I'll start with directly saying that won't happen in M15. That said, we are exploring giving some classes more flexibility in their queuing options, based on their paragon path, in M16.
As you already pointed out, acknowledging the issue and a need to make additional changes to keep DO end game viable, then you should hold off on the nerfs until your ready to create another end game viable option. Otherwise your just indicating that all DOs should take a break and check back in MOD 16 when your ready to provide us end game support.
Players have said repeatedly in the past that they'd prefer smaller ongoing changed to holding off entirely until everything can be done at once.
I think that's a misuse of what people are saying. They aren't saying nerf now and fix when you got free time. I think they are saying do something right the first time and if you can't do it right, do smaller things right the first time.
If your cars brakes are wearing out and you don't have the money for new brakes. Do you take the tires off your car now because you have the resources for tire removal or do you wait until you have the replacement pads in hand to take off the tires?
Don't break us just because you have the free time and give us vague hope that in 6 months when you launch mod 16 we may have a place in game again.
Terrifying Insight will stay at a 25% buff to self but would now also debuff targets hit by 10% for the whole party.
Just to be clear that's a 50% nerf to how terrifying insight works today, with a personal buff of 25%. Then the object would be to monitor DOs role and dps capabilities for future changes? That seems like a reasonable compromise over destroying the entire thing. Thank you
One thing players have mentioned in this thread is that if we're going to focus on making one of the paths more DPS focused then we should allow DCs to be able to queue as DPS. I'll start with directly saying that won't happen in M15. That said, we are exploring giving some classes more flexibility in their queuing options, based on their paragon path, in M16.
As you already pointed out, acknowledging the issue and a need to make additional changes to keep DO end game viable, then you should hold off on the nerfs until your ready to create another end game viable option. Otherwise your just indicating that all DOs should take a break and check back in MOD 16 when your ready to provide us end game support.
Players have said repeatedly in the past that they'd prefer smaller ongoing changed to holding off entirely until everything can be done at once.
I think that's a misuse of what people are saying. They aren't saying nerf now and fix when you got free time. I think they are saying do something right the first time and if you can't do it right, do smaller things right the first time.
If your cars brakes are wearing out and you don't have the money for new brakes. Do you take the tires off your car now because you have the resources for tire removal or do you wait until you have the replacement pads in hand to take off the tires?
Don't break us just because you have the free time and give us vague hope that in 6 months when you launch mod 16 we may have a place in game again.
Terrifying Insight will stay at a 25% buff to self but would now also debuff targets hit by 10% for the whole party.
Just to be clear that's a 50% nerf to how terrifying insight works today, with a personal buff of 25%. Then the object would be to monitor DOs role and dps capabilities for future changes? That seems like a reasonable compromise over destroying the entire thing. Thank you
It's better than it was but I don't think it will be enough to save our investment in our characters as do's.
Terrifying Insight will stay at a 25% buff to self but would now also debuff targets hit by 10% for the whole party.
To clarify, a debuff is worse than a buff due to diminishing returns.
I'm hoping you all have a buff rebalance in the works with a similar diminishing returns mechanic, but until that happens the 10% debuff still won't be enough to compensate, and everything I said in my original post still holds. Would you consider making it a 10% buff instead?
Terrifying Insight will stay at a 25% buff to self but would now also debuff targets hit by 10% for the whole party.
To clarify, a debuff is worse than a buff due to diminishing returns.
I'm hoping you all have a buff rebalance in the works with a similar diminishing returns mechanic, but until that happens the 10% debuff still won't be enough to compensate, and everything I said in my original post still holds. Would you consider making it a 10% buff instead?
I actually meant to type out that it would be a 10% group buff and remove the target debuff. I have a lot of notes from a lot of threads and was looking at the wrong thing when typing that out. So yes.
The whole part about possibly allowing "DCs to be able to queue as DPS" in Mod16, hopefully you're not talking as is. Because DOs are in no way close to secondary dps much less primary end game dps.
There is no denying there are a lot of thoughts/feelings/opinions on these changes. Overall we are putting a lot of effort into dialing in the balance of Neverwinter and that kind of effort will come with changes that some people will like, others will hate and some will be indifferent to.
I do want to say that this is not the end of class balance adjustments. We are planning on more in M16 as well. Getting the balance in an MMO in a good place is always a lot of work and, when its been as imbalanced as Neverwinter has been for a while now, it is that much more.
One thing players have mentioned in this thread is that if we're going to focus on making one of the paths more DPS focused then we should allow DCs to be able to queue as DPS. I'll start with directly saying that won't happen in M15. That said, we are exploring giving some classes more flexibility in their queuing options, based on their paragon path, in M16. It is way too early to be discussing M16 as it is early in development, but I did want to point out future considerations and how overall balance and player experience adjustments are ongoing.
An immediate response would be then why not wait until M16 to do any of these changes? Players have said repeatedly in the past that they'd prefer smaller ongoing changed to holding off entirely until everything can be done at once. On our end, it also makes more sense as 1) often times all the changes at once would simply be too big to complete in a single module and 2) smaller groups of changes over time allows us to fine tune them to get in a better place as we continue to work on a given system/class/balance overall.
At this point some of you are probably saying "None of that matters to me, revert the nerfs you made to my paragon path!"
We do realize these changes may feel a bit heavy handed and so there is one adjustment we think will help make them feel a bit better.
Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.
Edit: typed out the wrong thing, edited the above change to Terrifying Insight
Thank you for considering our feedback! It really matters to us, to actually see that we are heard. With that change, a skilled DO can hope to get himself/herself a spot in a group. You also mentioned that you're planning to add smaller changes over time (Mod16 and onwards), any plans for heroic feats of Devouted Clerics in general, they have been like for years now, and some of them really, really underperform.
Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.
I...think I can swallow this. Further DPS tweaking will probably be necessary, but I'm very okay with the vision of DO as a true supporting DPS cleric (not that it isn't one already, but the reduction in group buffing ability does need to be compensated with a compelling strength somewhere else).
If Avatar of the Divine could have its CD reduced by 1.0s for each critical strike, we'd be in full gear.
The whole part about possibly allowing "DCs to be able to queue as DPS" in Mod16, hopefully you're not talking as is. Because DOs are in no way close to secondary dps much less primary end game dps.
The implication is that future changes could make it more viable.
Besides, a DO DC actually can be a primary end-game DPS; it's just not nearly as efficient as taking a traditional one, and it doesn't make sense not to keep the DO in the support role.
Terrifying Insight will stay at a 25% buff to self but would now also debuff targets hit by 10% for the whole party.
To clarify, a debuff is worse than a buff due to diminishing returns.
I'm hoping you all have a buff rebalance in the works with a similar diminishing returns mechanic, but until that happens the 10% debuff still won't be enough to compensate, and everything I said in my original post still holds. Would you consider making it a 10% buff instead?
Good catch, i missed the debuff vs buff, was just playing and thought o HAMSTER that's not near as good as i thought, and logged into to modify my post no need now, already 7 responses
0
putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
The whole part about possibly allowing "DCs to be able to queue as DPS" in Mod16, hopefully you're not talking as is. Because DOs are in no way close to secondary dps much less primary end game dps.
I think DODC could get into a random queue as a dps without TI. DODC isnt even a second tier DPS but they aren't so bad they'd get kicked as long as they aren't the primary dps If a DO/DC queued into a random without TI now, they'd be vote kicked for sure.
The whole part about possibly allowing "DCs to be able to queue as DPS" in Mod16, hopefully you're not talking as is. Because DOs are in no way close to secondary dps much less primary end game dps.
The implication is that future changes could make it more viable.
Besides, a DO DC actually can be a primary end-game DPS; it's just not nearly as efficient as taking a traditional one, and it doesn't make sense not to keep the DO in the support role.
yeah. in some weak runs of cr switching out DG for daunting light on the boss only when it became apparent it was going to take years if I didn't. and not running daunting light empowered but just using it to power up my empowered bts. I managed to hit 500mil in a 45 minute run.
in general: there are some things I switched out because I felt like it just wasn't worth while for the mild dps I bring. like I switched out my orcus set for the atrophal for more stats. If one wanted to go for dps and use less of the support features and had maybe some passive support built into some dps features we could become a credible secondary dps buffer. I wouldn't be opposed to that change.
but those numbers were only in a run wiht subpar dps figures. In a run with solid dps I scrape out quite a bit less. if we were a viable secondary dps we should be able to get those kind of numbers in any setting. which would require us to probably put out 50 to 75 percent more damage than we currently do while still providing some utility to the team in buff debuff.
who is going to even want a DO now with a nerf to terrifying insight?? good thing you are balancing stuff....????
and yet they still cannot fix the Vistani set bug.. what a joke... I hope all this "BALANCING" meands they'll finally be bringing in new classes, since that was their excuse for not having a new one in like 5 years
who is going to even want a DO now with a nerf to terrifying insight?? good thing you are balancing stuff....????
and yet they still cannot fix the Vistani set bug.. what a joke... I hope all this "BALANCING" meands they'll finally be bringing in new classes, since that was their excuse for not having a new one in like 5 years
The whole part about possibly allowing "DCs to be able to queue as DPS" in Mod16, hopefully you're not talking as is. Because DOs are in no way close to secondary dps much less primary end game dps.
I think DODC could get into a random queue as a dps without TI. DODC isnt even a second tier DPS but they aren't so bad they'd get kicked as long as they aren't the primary dps If a DO/DC queued into a random without TI now, they'd be vote kicked for sure.
disagree. unless that random que is doing something like shores. lol. our dps is as weak as a baby kitten.
i'm not sold on this yet, the whole dps role you are trying to push DO's into. Are you gong to increase their weapon damage drastically ? Remove the delay on casting daunting light ? Improve targeting vector powers to directly hit ?
One thing players have mentioned in this thread is that if we're going to focus on making one of the paths more DPS focused then we should allow DCs to be able to queue as DPS. I'll start with directly saying that won't happen in M15. That said, we are exploring giving some classes more flexibility in their queuing options, based on their paragon path, in M16. It is way too early to be discussing M16 as it is early in development, but I did want to point out future considerations and how overall balance and player experience adjustments are ongoing.
It's worth noting that Paladins can currently queue in all three slots: Tank, Heal, or DPS, depending on loadout. So clearly the capacity does exist to allow classes to queue in multiple roles, it just might be hard to adjust it for generalisation beyond the Paladin class.
At this point some of you are probably saying "None of that matters to me, revert the nerfs you made to my paragon path!"
Rather, "please don't make DO nonviable in groups" and also "DO is the low-IL path because it gets good boosts early and doesn't require tons of gear to work, PLEASE don't make DCs need to be 16K ACs before they can compete with other support classes, because healers are short enough on the ground already."
We do realize these changes may feel a bit heavy handed and so there is one adjustment we think will help make them feel a bit better.
Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.
That's a decent start, thank you.
I'm still concerned that the goal appears to be to eliminate "the two-DC meta" when it's actually "the 4-support-1-DPS" meta that's the problem. Nerfing one DC build doesn't actually correct the root problem, it just means that your 4 supports will only have one DC.
The whole part about possibly allowing "DCs to be able to queue as DPS" in Mod16, hopefully you're not talking as is. Because DOs are in no way close to secondary dps much less primary end game dps.
Of course, if they go ahead with the nerfs on TR then perhaps DO will become secondary DPS and TR will be reduced to barely-there support. Of course, the DO damage would still be questionable, but if it's better than the new TR that would be saying a lot, and not in a good way for TRs. We'll see...
edited for spelling and clarity
Arielle Redbow half-elf Warden Ranger Guild: Guardians of the Forest
I actually meant to type out that it would be a 10% group buff and remove the target debuff. I have a lot of notes from a lot of threads and was looking at the wrong thing when typing that out. So yes.
Question/clarification:
Does this mean that Terrifying Insight will just be a passive 10% buff similar to how TI is activated now, or will TI need to be placed on enemies (similar to damage buffs like Combat Superiority or Mod15 Prey)?
I hope it is the former rather than the latter so I can stop making Afk DO jokes.
It's worth noting that Paladins can currently queue in all three slots: Tank, Heal, or DPS, depending on loadout. So clearly the capacity does exist to allow classes to queue in multiple roles, it just might be hard to adjust it for generalisation beyond the Paladin class.
I've never seen an OP queue as DPS, I'm guessing it can be done with a loadout that doesn't have a paragon set. I'm sure this isn't intended.
I don't really want to see the ability to select role to queue as. At least not without some safeguards to deter or prevent abuses.
All other things aside, I'd definitely disagree there. Our DPS is situational due to Avatar's restricted uptime, but our burst is not bad.
compared to other dps classes it certainly seems to be less. we can get around. we can solo things. but we don't come close to other dps support classes in most content. so with our dps as it is now, and still being expected to have a supportish type load out as a single dc. (since we're talking RAQ) if we were to go in as a dps we'd not really be doing anyone any favors. it was in response to this "I think DODC could get into a random queue as a dps without TI. DODC isnt even a second tier DPS but they aren't so bad they'd get kicked as long as they aren't the primary dps If a DO/DC queued into a random without TI now, they'd be vote kicked for sure."
Compared to every other secondary dps... we are weak as a kitten in this situation.
We do realize these changes may feel a bit heavy handed and so there is one adjustment we think will help make them feel a bit better.
Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.
I'm glad to see this change, as ti does restore a bit of functionality to the DO paragon.
I am however concerned that this will still cause the DO Paragon to become the "unwanted" paragon for group content. Right at the moment Do DCs have a useful spot in the dungeon either alongside or in place of an AC DC. Terrifying Insight + Hallowed ground provide a buff comparable to (though still inferior to) the power buff the AC DC provides with the combination of AA + Weapons of Light + Battle Fervor. In Mod 14, a 14-15K DO DC has a place in Castle Ravenloft or CODG. in Mod 15 with this change everyone will be looking for An AC DC instead.
So the question ... why does anyone care? Why not just swap to an AC build? Personally I have both builds on my DC already. But for many newer and lower geared players, they lack the power and recovery to make a useful AC power buffing build. A DC usually doesn't get the power + Recovery (roughly 40-50K+ Power and 12-18K+ Recovery) to keep a party fully buffed until 16-18K. We already have a serious issue with elitism in the harder dungeons ... this will only make it worse.
We do realize these changes may feel a bit heavy handed and so there is one adjustment we think will help make them feel a bit better.
Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.
I'm glad to see this change, as ti does restore a bit of functionality to the DO paragon.
I am however concerned that this will still cause the DO Paragon to become the "unwanted" paragon for group content. Right at the moment Do DCs have a useful spot in the dungeon either alongside or in place of an AC DC. Terrifying Insight + Hallowed ground provide a buff comparable to (though still inferior to) the power buff the AC DC provides with the combination of AA + Weapons of Light + Battle Fervor. In Mod 14, a 14-15K DO DC has a place in Castle Ravenloft or CODG. in Mod 15 with this change everyone will be looking for An AC DC instead.
So the question ... why does anyone care? Why not just swap to an AC build? Personally I have both builds on my DC already. But for many newer and lower geared players, they lack the power and recovery to make a useful AC power buffing build. A DC usually doesn't get the power + Recovery (roughly 40-50K+ Power and 12-18K+ Recovery) to keep a party fully buffed until 16-18K. We already have a serious issue with elitism in the harder dungeons ... this will only make it worse.
Any why people take x instead of current cookie cutter? Because cookie cutters are not infinite resouce It's rare to find AC with power high enough to beat DOs in buffs (if we would compare them for 1DC run). Remember than the better OP and dps the less efficient your buffing will be. Group looking for that last DC spot will not be picky - they have either DO who buff a lot and don't need to be high IL for that - or look for higher IL AC (harder).
Remember that in 1DC meta DO will still have debuffs and WoL. You will still be requested a lot for CRs and Codg. Of course AC have other utilies (spamming CC immunity, hastening light, power interaction with mount bonuses) but that's also subject to change - notice that TRs will lose their power looping mechanic in mod 15 (though CB or whatever it was). Meaning TR will benefit from AC a lot less than now.
Comments
In the past... DO until second boss, then AC
After changes: AC all the way. No point in bringing a DO.
Clerics are not and have not been great primary healers for...pretty much ever. A DC has to make untenable sacrifices to compete with the kind of output Templocks and Devo OPs manage effortlessly and while still bringing their buffing A-game.
That being said, a buffing DC can still heal respectably with their standard encounters and, in the case of DO in particular, the Repurpose Soul feat. The notion that this change somehow enhances the focus on healing DCs, however, is false; no one wants or needs a DC just to heal.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I do want to say that this is not the end of class balance adjustments. We are planning on more in M16 as well. Getting the balance in an MMO in a good place is always a lot of work and, when its been as imbalanced as Neverwinter has been for a while now, it is that much more.
One thing players have mentioned in this thread is that if we're going to focus on making one of the paths more DPS focused then we should allow DCs to be able to queue as DPS. I'll start with directly saying that won't happen in M15. That said, we are exploring giving some classes more flexibility in their queuing options, based on their paragon path, in M16. It is way too early to be discussing M16 as it is early in development, but I did want to point out future considerations and how overall balance and player experience adjustments are ongoing.
An immediate response would be then why not wait until M16 to do any of these changes? Players have said repeatedly in the past that they'd prefer smaller ongoing changed to holding off entirely until everything can be done at once. On our end, it also makes more sense as 1) often times all the changes at once would simply be too big to complete in a single module and 2) smaller groups of changes over time allows us to fine tune them to get in a better place as we continue to work on a given system/class/balance overall.
At this point some of you are probably saying "None of that matters to me, revert the nerfs you made to my paragon path!"
We do realize these changes may feel a bit heavy handed and so there is one adjustment we think will help make them feel a bit better.
Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.
Edit: typed out the wrong thing, edited the above change to Terrifying Insight
Can't you do a little better than that? We still won't be included in end game with that. everyone else buffing wise is still stronger than us and our dps can't compete with other classes that offer buff debuff and dps. so in short the do still isn't a viable choice against the ac (or any of the other buff debuff classes) the ac will still win the spot. it isnt' even a close competition. do you honestly not care about the investment we make? can you acknowledge that the do has such a different build than the ac that it IS a hardship? it's really not ok. can you throw us more of a bone here? If you can't give us the do as a viable end game choice so it's AC OR DO or even an honest chance to compete against the other buff debuff classes with dps...
can you give us an unbind token so we can move things over to another class that is still wanted?
You've had 5 years of working on class balance, why would anyone have confidence in your current direction? As you already pointed out, acknowledging the issue and a need to make additional changes to keep DO end game viable, then you should hold off on the nerfs until your ready to create another end game viable option. Otherwise your just indicating that all DOs should take a break and check back in MOD 16 when your ready to provide us end game support. I think that's a misuse of what people are saying. They aren't saying nerf now and fix when you got free time. I think they are saying do something right the first time and if you can't do it right, do smaller things right the first time.
If your cars brakes are wearing out and you don't have the money for new brakes. Do you take the tires off your car now because you have the resources for tire removal or do you wait until you have the replacement pads in hand to take off the tires?
Don't break us just because you have the free time and give us vague hope that in 6 months when you launch mod 16 we may have a place in game again.
Just to be clear that's a 50% nerf to how terrifying insight works today, with a personal buff of 25%. Then the object would be to monitor DOs role and dps capabilities for future changes? That seems like a reasonable compromise over destroying the entire thing. Thank you
It's better than it was but I don't think it will be enough to save our investment in our characters as do's.
I'm hoping you all have a buff rebalance in the works with a similar diminishing returns mechanic, but until that happens the 10% debuff still won't be enough to compensate, and everything I said in my original post still holds. Would you consider making it a 10% buff instead?
You also mentioned that you're planning to add smaller changes over time (Mod16 and onwards), any plans for heroic feats of Devouted Clerics in general, they have been like for years now, and some of them really, really underperform.
If Avatar of the Divine could have its CD reduced by 1.0s for each critical strike, we'd be in full gear.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Besides, a DO DC actually can be a primary end-game DPS; it's just not nearly as efficient as taking a traditional one, and it doesn't make sense not to keep the DO in the support role.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
in general: there are some things I switched out because I felt like it just wasn't worth while for the mild dps I bring. like I switched out my orcus set for the atrophal for more stats. If one wanted to go for dps and use less of the support features and had maybe some passive support built into some dps features we could become a credible secondary dps buffer. I wouldn't be opposed to that change.
but those numbers were only in a run wiht subpar dps figures. In a run with solid dps I scrape out quite a bit less. if we were a viable secondary dps we should be able to get those kind of numbers in any setting. which would require us to probably put out 50 to 75 percent more damage than we currently do while still providing some utility to the team in buff debuff.
disagree. unless that random que is doing something like shores. lol. our dps is as weak as a baby kitten.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I'm still concerned that the goal appears to be to eliminate "the two-DC meta" when it's actually "the 4-support-1-DPS" meta that's the problem. Nerfing one DC build doesn't actually correct the root problem, it just means that your 4 supports will only have one DC.
edited for spelling and clarity
Guild: Guardians of the Forest
Does this mean that Terrifying Insight will just be a passive 10% buff similar to how TI is activated now, or will TI need to be placed on enemies (similar to damage buffs like Combat Superiority or Mod15 Prey)?
I hope it is the former rather than the latter so I can stop making Afk DO jokes.
I don't really want to see the ability to select role to queue as. At least not without some safeguards to deter or prevent abuses.
Compared to every other secondary dps... we are weak as a kitten in this situation.
I am however concerned that this will still cause the DO Paragon to become the "unwanted" paragon for group content. Right at the moment Do DCs have a useful spot in the dungeon either alongside or in place of an AC DC. Terrifying Insight + Hallowed ground provide a buff comparable to (though still inferior to) the power buff the AC DC provides with the combination of AA + Weapons of Light + Battle Fervor. In Mod 14, a 14-15K DO DC has a place in Castle Ravenloft or CODG. in Mod 15 with this change everyone will be looking for An AC DC instead.
So the question ... why does anyone care? Why not just swap to an AC build? Personally I have both builds on my DC already. But for many newer and lower geared players, they lack the power and recovery to make a useful AC power buffing build. A DC usually doesn't get the power + Recovery (roughly 40-50K+ Power and 12-18K+ Recovery) to keep a party fully buffed until 16-18K. We already have a serious issue with elitism in the harder dungeons ... this will only make it worse.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
Remember that in 1DC meta DO will still have debuffs and WoL. You will still be requested a lot for CRs and Codg. Of course AC have other utilies (spamming CC immunity, hastening light, power interaction with mount bonuses) but that's also subject to change - notice that TRs will lose their power looping mechanic in mod 15 (though CB or whatever it was). Meaning TR will benefit from AC a lot less than now.