Empowering both BTS and Exalt isn't really possible. The reason it can be done with FF is a glitch. Removing FF means one encounter get empowered, not two. The rotation won't change but double empowerment goes away, meaning less buffing.
Blessing of Battle is painfully slow to cast, much slower than Brand. According to the guides Ive seen it has the best Divinity generation currently, but it feels like it takes forever with the animation that it has.
Unless your timing is perfect, it is likely to have some rotations with less than full empowerment, especially in longer fights.
imo going forward they're better off not doing exalt or doing exalt as the secondary and making sure empowered bts is every 8 sec without fail. I don't think empowered exhalt and bts is possible. it takes about 4 seconds to empower another couple seconds to fire off all the empowered. another second to throw out a aa. then a second to throw out emp bts. there is just no room for a second emp rotation with only 8 secs on bts.
Anyway I can´t understand how all those DO DC´s went though content without having an AC loadout, since that´s what is asked for a lot, talking about tong/codg etc., switching at bosses. Do you run 24/7 double meta?
One reason you see more calls for an AC is that it is much easier to find a DO, as they can be useful at a lower IL. So, a 2-DC group usually find a DO fairly easily and then struggle for a while spamming the channels to find an AC.
For a single DC group, it really does not matter for a strong group whether you have a DO or AC - you can finish Tong in
wrong - the AC DC is needed for extra protection from AA.
In a weak group last boss in to9g try to run a perma AA ACDC and with the same weaker group run with DODC. ACDC is only needed for Protection. If you run with BIS OP, Power share of AC is nice but not needed you can replace it.
If the group is too weak or needs protection there is no w2ay you want a DO in. And if the DO now also can 't buff the same like AC the even groups without need of Protection of AA will choose an AC over an DO all day.
The do paragon is dead with this changes!
And yes I'm talking for ENDGAME DC's who build theri DC's over the years.
I've done single dc runs of tong. you're supposed to be remain in your do load out til final boss then switch to ac for final boss. totally doable with a do as long as you have load outs. lol.
I'm ok with making ti not passive. I have and would never afkado.. but I have heard of ppl doing it. it infuriates me. what I am against is nuking it entirely like they have done. making us have to fulfil some kind of requirement would be a ok as far as I am concerned though and letting it remain party buff
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
I see all of this discussion around how this is bad. What if the devs long term goal is to provide DC the ability to Q into content as a DPS?
I think they are still working on the longterm goal of reintroducing the old dungeons. That's 9 modules in the making so I'm not holding my breath on a grand strategy. If that was there goal they'd do it now instead of dash to nerf and clean up later.
Let's be honest about this, it has nothing to do with the 2DC meta. It's about being a nerf to party dps. The focus is either to reduce party dps potential so they can resell it back to us or to make room for a new class to take over as the max buff/debuff leader. You can pick which conspiracy fits your ideology.
Nerfing DO was perceived as an easy method to nerf party dps because we will sate them with increased dps in solo play that we don't need.
Here's an idea, lets just get rid of all the extra paragons, powers, and feat trees. They obviously don't have the resources to maintain them and most are a waste of effort. It would save loads of development hours and make balancing much easier. Think of all the extra content they can NOT develop while NOT working on character development.
have and would never afkado.. but I have heard of ppl doing it
We've all heard people on the forums QQ that it happens and yet i've never seen it (or had anyone credible tell me about an instance of it happening). Personally I'd vote kick them for being AFK if it occurred. Anyone who doesn't but takes the time to come on to the forums to rage on this mythical creature the "afkado" is just being passive aggressive. I personally don't believe it happens with any degree of regularity,
I see all of this discussion around how this is bad. What if the devs long term goal is to provide DC the ability to Q into content as a DPS?
I think they are still working on the longterm goal of reintroducing the old dungeons. That's 9 modules in the making so I'm not holding my breath on a grand strategy. If that was there goal they'd do it now instead of dash to nerf and clean up later.
Let's be honest about this, it has nothing to do with the 2DC meta. It's about being a nerf to party dps. The focus is either to reduce party dps potential so they can resell it back to us or to make room for a new class to take over as the max buff/debuff leader. You can pick which conspiracy fits your ideology.
Nerfing DO was perceived as an easy method to nerf party dps because we will sate them with increased dps in solo play that we don't need.
Here's an idea, lets just get rid of all the extra paragons, powers, and feat trees. They obviously don't have the resources to maintain them and most are a waste of effort. It would save loads of development hours and make balancing much easier. Think of all the extra content they can NOT develop while NOT working on character development.
have and would never afkado.. but I have heard of ppl doing it
We've all heard people on the forums QQ that it happens and yet i've never seen it (or had anyone credible tell me about an instance of it happening). Personally I'd vote kick them for being AFK if it occurred. Anyone who doesn't but takes the time to come on to the forums to rage on this mythical creature the "afkado" is just being passive aggressive. I personally don't believe it happens with any degree of regularity,
I see all of this discussion around how this is bad. What if the devs long term goal is to provide DC the ability to Q into content as a DPS?
I think they are still working on the longterm goal of reintroducing the old dungeons. That's 9 modules in the making so I'm not holding my breath on a grand strategy. If that was there goal they'd do it now instead of dash to nerf and clean up later.
Let's be honest about this, it has nothing to do with the 2DC meta. It's about being a nerf to party dps. The focus is either to reduce party dps potential so they can resell it back to us or to make room for a new class to take over as the max buff/debuff leader. You can pick which conspiracy fits your ideology.
Nerfing DO was perceived as an easy method to nerf party dps because we will sate them with increased dps in solo play that we don't need.
Here's an idea, lets just get rid of all the extra paragons, powers, and feat trees. They obviously don't have the resources to maintain them and most are a waste of effort. It would save loads of development hours and make balancing much easier. Think of all the extra content they can NOT develop while NOT working on character development.
have and would never afkado.. but I have heard of ppl doing it
We've all heard people on the forums QQ that it happens and yet i've never seen it (or had anyone credible tell me about an instance of it happening). Personally I'd vote kick them for being AFK if it occurred. Anyone who doesn't but takes the time to come on to the forums to rage on this mythical creature the "afkado" is just being passive aggressive. I personally don't believe it happens with any degree of regularity,
no, I've heard of it happening in lower level ques where a lot of people afk regardless of type.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
well yeah, there are a lot of bots and afkrs in RLQ but i don't see that as a DO issue since its not distinct to DOs. That's not an exploit of TI that's an exploit of a big rewards system that isn't tied to lvl
> @gromovnipljesak#8234 said: > It's kinda ironic, isn't it? > > They try to kill the 2x DC meta, yet they don't try even one bit to fix the difference between OP and GF as tanks. > > It's moronic.
How Terrifying Insight feat used to work until Mod 9 or 10 if I remember correctly it was some kind of debuff. Something between a semi-active buff/debuff and the current TI on live seems ideal. Make it a 15% buff to group damage + 15% enemy debuff on damaging an enemy or a critical hit on an enemy for example. Maybe the first rework to 20% by doing nothing other then to slot the feat and stay within proximity of your group was a bit too much. But so is the current rework, just in the opposite direction. A 25% buff to yourself isn't needed for soloing. Annointed Action (AC feat) basically does the same thing, so you wouldn't even need to spec DO for. What matters is the gear, weapon enchantment, armor with 3% damage bonus and so on - basically gear like a DPS class - and any cleric should be able to solo anything without problems. For soloing cleric is gear dependent (just like other classes), no feat other then the capstone provides a constant major DPS increase. Most soloing problems stem from the fact that many cleric gear as buffer, have debuff enchantments, high recovery (which doesn't help much for soloing due to Divinity) and not much critical strike or even defense ignored. DO isn't necessary at all for soloing just a bit more convenient to have TI all the time then casting a daily every few seconds for Annointed Action. As already has been said currently it's literally nuking DO entirely. Intended or unintended I can't tell. A lower geared AC can provide HG (since you won't have high base power no need to bother with AA unless for protection and immunity), feated BoB and empowered BtS. A DO provides HG and empowered BtS.
Is this still about "Why can´t my one class stay double-meta in two paragons ?"
OK, right? They're reducing DC from 4 viable builds (6 counting PVP) to one, but at least there's still one viable build so everyone saying "uh, this is a bad change" is just whining, right?
I don't play TR so correct me if I'm wrong.
Hopefully TR gets to use the vast majority of their equipment between those different builds. A DO trying to switch to AC after the nerf has to replace basically everything. Comps, artifacts, gear, enchants... They are just that different.
I wanted to pop in to say that this is being read through, still working through the 250 responses so it may not be until tomorrow that there is an actual response but I did want to let everyone know the thread isn't being ignored.
Is this still about "Why can´t my one class stay double-meta in two paragons ?"
OK, right? They're reducing DC from 4 viable builds (6 counting PVP) to one, but at least there's still one viable build so everyone saying "uh, this is a bad change" is just whining, right?
I don't play TR so correct me if I'm wrong.
Hopefully TR gets to use the vast majority of their equipment between those different builds. A DO trying to switch to AC after the nerf has to replace basically everything. Comps, artifacts, gear, enchants... They are just that different.
The TR issue is that there *was* exactly one and only one good TR build. The other 5 possible builds were all awful, and failed at every possible role.
(It was pretty good DPS, in mod 14!)
But with the proposed Mod15 changes, there's no gear or enchants that matter. TR is nonviable in any role, or so I'm informed by people who love the TR.
My point was that for the DC, of 6 possible builds, all 6 were viable in some pretty-common circumstances.
This change nerfs five of them, all three DO builds and the Virtuous (and to a lesser degree, Faithful) AC builds, into mostly uselessness.
> @gatorusmc said: > Is this still about "Why can´t my one class stay double-meta in two paragons ?" > > OK, right? They're reducing DC from 4 viable builds (6 counting PVP) to one, but at least there's still one viable build so everyone saying "uh, this is a bad change" is just whining, right? > > > I don't play TR so correct me if I'm wrong. > > Hopefully TR gets to use the vast majority of their equipment between those different builds. A DO trying to switch to AC after the nerf has to replace basically everything. Comps, artifacts, gear, enchants... They are just that different.
That was meant ironically towards my comment.
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @noworries#8859 said: > I wanted to pop in to say that this is being read through, still working through the 250 responses so it may not be until tomorrow that there is an actual response but I did want to let everyone know the thread isn't being ignored.
I wanted to pop in to say that this is being read through, still working through the 250 responses so it may not be until tomorrow that there is an actual response but I did want to let everyone know the thread isn't being ignored.
Thank you. The silence on these is deafening, and I'd appreciate responses on all threads (especially the one i posted in the most, wink wink nudge nudge)
Please, everyone, stop the personal attacks, and the arguing about "nerf AC too". It will just lead to the developers ignoring this thread as a pointless flame war.
Let's focus on the real issues here.
The "meta" has changed many times in the past, as has the "optimal" way to play a DC. Remember when the only DC that was wanted was the "Hastebot"? Remember when you had to have the High Prophet set to be considered good...or going a long way back, when you "had" to have the Miracle Healer set ?
What is happening now is the following: The developers have decided that the "2DC meta" is a "bad thing". Instead of solving it properly (as I have suggested before, just making TI and AA mutually exclusive would have done the trick), they decided to completely kill DOs viability for groups as a primary buffer.
This does not mean DO DCs are entirely useless. A high-Crit, high-ArPen DO build is pretty good for solo play. Get your Exalted Primal weapons and a Dread enchant and just go and melt things. For groups, however, a DO will just not be comparable to an AC.
I expect the new "meta" to be
Primary DPS, GWF or HR - TRs need not apply.
OP - superior to GFs.
AC DC, using AA, BtS, DG and Exalt... also casting HG when possible.
SW, Temptation of course.
MoF CW or the new buffer class being introduced "soon".
A DO might find a "charity" spot in guild runs or if a group is unable to find a SW/CW, but that's about it. Still, DCs are not as badly off as the TRs, who will not be wanted for PvE at all, or the GFs who will be totally pushed aside by the OPs.
Now what bothers me about this is that DCs were in a good place, with two viable "end-game" builds, but now one of them is effectively being killed. This is also a problem for low-geared DCs...say, with an IL of 13-14K. They could contribute to an "end-game" group, as their buffs were largely independent of IL, but that's not the case for AC builds. AC DCs will be in a similar position as GWFs are now....not wanted unless they are 16K+.
Personally, I like DO - I have a DO DC with an IL of "almost" 18K (well, 17996), with over 5000 hours of playtime behind her. I also have a semi-decent AC build, (17.1K IL, 49K Power, Unparalelled Frost etc), which I occasionally use, in particular for weaker groups having problems at the second or third boss in ToNG if I was the only DC. However, switching from DO to AC is not simple or cheap....the power-sharing AC build is one of the most gear demanding (and expensive) in the game.
The bottom line for me is that I find it highly demotivating and disappointing to first give DCs two viable paragon paths and then just take one of them away. This, combined with the Profession and Salvage changes is why number of players will either take a break or abandon the game if those changes go live as they currently are.
That's not a threat....it's a fact.
a solo do build is kinda silly to spend millions on building. lol. you can do the same amount of solo damage with a 14k hr as you can an a 17.8 do solo. it's all easy to get thru but it's pointless to have spent any ad on. imo it is useless as HAMSTER on a bull.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
How Terrifying Insight feat used to work until Mod 9 or 10 if I remember correctly it was some kind of debuff. Something between a semi-active buff/debuff and the current TI on live seems ideal. Make it a 15% buff to group damage + 15% enemy debuff on damaging an enemy or a critical hit on an enemy for example. Maybe the first rework to 20% by doing nothing other then to slot the feat and stay within proximity of your group was a bit too much. But so is the current rework, just in the opposite direction. A 25% buff to yourself isn't needed for soloing. Annointed Action (AC feat) basically does the same thing, so you wouldn't even need to spec DO for. What matters is the gear, weapon enchantment, armor with 3% damage bonus and so on - basically gear like a DPS class - and any cleric should be able to solo anything without problems. For soloing cleric is gear dependent (just like other classes), no feat other then the capstone provides a constant major DPS increase. Most soloing problems stem from the fact that many cleric gear as buffer, have debuff enchantments, high recovery (which doesn't help much for soloing due to Divinity) and not much critical strike or even defense ignored. DO isn't necessary at all for soloing just a bit more convenient to have TI all the time then casting a daily every few seconds for Annointed Action. As already has been said currently it's literally nuking DO entirely. Intended or unintended I can't tell. A lower geared AC can provide HG (since you won't have high base power no need to bother with AA unless for protection and immunity), feated BoB and empowered BtS. A DO provides HG and empowered BtS.
Terrifying Insight (3/3) (Divine Oracle Paragon): Optional passive to boost your damage for when you DPS or solo content. Stack mechanics are similar to High Prophet, stacks up to 4 stacks offering 4% debuff each for 16% debuff total.
That's how it worked before, and it was was useless in group content. Which is why DO's could not get into a party after the ITF rework
I wanted to pop in to say that this is being read through, still working through the 250 responses so it may not be until tomorrow that there is an actual response but I did want to let everyone know the thread isn't being ignored.
Thanks for acknowledging the discussion on this thread.
My point was that for the DC, of 6 possible builds, all 6 were viable in some pretty-common circumstances.
This change nerfs five of them, all three DO builds and the Virtuous (and to a lesser degree, Faithful) AC builds, into mostly uselessness.
no one runs Faithful. The Virtuous capstone was abandoned after it was reworked. Almost everyone runs Righteous capstone but may take some points in virtuous for Gift of Light or faithful for Gift of the Gods but you'd be hard pressed to find DCs running a capstone besides Righteous. I believe that same kind of thing exists for most classes. Every class has 6 "viable" options but if you want to get into a end game party you are sucked into the one or two "meta" builds. Will anybody be looking for a cc tr or a dps sw? I doubt it
Thanks @putzboy78 I can see a stacking group buff + enemy debuff working better then the old and new TIs as it seems obvious to me that the developers don't want a feat that buffs so much while doing nothing. For me juggling with Divinity to provide buffs and a bit of DPS (mainly chains on AoE or daunting light against stationary targets if solo DC) has always been the most fun part about Divine Oracle and can't really be done properly on AC since you need to maintain and refresh your buffs. It was probably a quick fix to make it a completely passive 20% group buff to make the path useful and not a solution meant to stay forever. Then again as I said making the feat entirely useless (as 10% debuff isn't much and the personal buff is only slightly better than Annointed Action which is an AC feat) doesn't seem optimal either.
With current Powershare numbers, it is possible for AC to beat DO if the AC in question can double daily. However, most ACs cannot do this consistently, and this is near impossible to do in pronlonged fights (exception: Castle Monologue's 3rd boss because Daybreak), so you may as well not bother with it unless your DC is exceptionally good.
Even if the AC can provide a double daily, there is always a part at the start of combat where a single AC in the party cannot provide HG (depending on how fast they can get their second daily out). Some fights with mobs are over before this second daily.
But even at bosses, with their battle interruptions (Orcus taking flight, Strahd vanishing, Ras Nsi teleporting/being immune), getting both dailies out concurrently takes practice, and there might be gaps when both dailies do not overlap, so realistically, the buffs from both dailies even with a very practiced AC will never be 100%.
I agree, there will still be space for a DO DC giving 100% HG uptime (and at the start of battle) with little to no interruptions between boss animations.
but will it be more desirable than nearly any other class there instead. I doubt it.
Even in Mod 14 as it stands, many groups look for an AC when filling their party slot in a 5-man party, so this won't change in Mod 15.
10-person content will still want an AC and a DO in their party so that won't change.
If you RQ, a DO DC will still provide HG + BtS (30+21% damage) to the party. An AC DC (unless at very practiced levels) does not routinely add HG to their rotation. And in RQ/PUGs a DO DC will often be a strong DPS char (and made relatively stronger now that TI is a personal 25% buff and Avatar is buffed).
100% HG and BtS, is what, a 50% DPS increase that can be provided by which other class? An OP maybe? But they don't have the DPS output as a DO DC. A templock? Not nearly as much buffing, but they heal more (it's a funny compromise they made with that). The DO DC will still likely have weapons of light anyway, so will still contribute this as powersharing. So no, in my view, a DO DC will still be effective. If an RQ party kicks a DC for not playing AC, then they've got problems.
the buffs they give us are not going to make us strong dps. LOL. we are still the weakest of any dps class inthe game. we already get buffs from ti. they're just adding a tiny bit more. yeah we'll be able to load into random que and get kicked. no party will ask for us. we are not as strong as the ac path will be. there is no reason we should not be equal to an ac if built right going forward. the stance you are taking is that the ac is better than do and should remain so. I disagree with that. they are two paths and both should be valid and relevant to end game. what they have proposed WILL kill the do in parties.
acs will no longer do ff and exhalt. they will be doing bts. with the change in rotation I'm guessing it won't be as hard to keep up hg either. we can do bts and hg still but it won't be needed.
they are worried about power creep they should be addressing that instead of killing the do.
No, I am not saying the AC is more powerful than the DO.
I have written down that I use both builds.
You are asking for a nerf for the AC, so that what, the DO can be better? That doesn't make any sense to me. They are both part of the same class. I am saying that a DO can also be an AC, and they do not play like night and day (I play BOTH), and that DO is not getting "nuked".
but going forward the do IS nuked. it will not be viable in group content. ppl will not ask for it in parties. the ac will be more powerful. by A LOT. and they do play day and night. I agree that TI was too powerful passively. but they should just make us have to build for it. other than that the classes were pretty equal. but very very different. If you don't see how different they are I'm going to have to guess you probably weren't playing at least one of them correctly lol
Playing "correctly", to whom? To your end-game party compositions, that to me, sound elitist and counterproductive.
WTF? Are you serious? and end game DC play with endgame partys - thats the normal way it should be.
Not when you play with guild, alliance members, friends (whose characters aren't end-game) and in the occasional random queue.
well yeah, there are a lot of bots and afkrs in RLQ but i don't see that as a DO issue since its not distinct to DOs. That's not an exploit of TI that's an exploit of a big rewards system that isn't tied to lvl
someone in my guild was bragging about doing it in one of the skirmishes and other things at one point. I pretty much vowed in my head to never run with him.
@"noworries#8859" Please understand that there are very few useful encounters for the DC and even fewer that do not have long casting animations. Even casting break the spirit can at times be a laggy ordeal. The one go to power that seems to always have a nice clean and crisp cast is forgemaster flame but by nerfing it so that it will not have any use in a dungeon run "where lag is" is just to extreme. I am all for the removal of TI giving a group buff and have been against it since it was added. But please reconsider the nerf to forge master.
As others have pointed out, 2 DC meta is beginning to pass for other reasons (CR mechanics), and the upcoming changes will seal the deal. Let's set that aside and agree it's a problem we want to address.
If the point was to break up the incentive to take 2 DCs in a party, I think that the removal of empowered FF or empowered BtS damage buff would be sufficient. Looks like FF was chosen, some would have liked to see BtS nerfed instead. I don't think it matters too much, actually.
A generic DC can bring DG / emp BtS / HG AC adds exalt and AA DO adds PoD and ??
As has been noted, the proposed changes make DO unattractive. Without the 15% buff from empowered FF, DO only brings chip dps and a slow to cast debuff to the table. LSS HR, MoF CW, temp SW, GF, and OP all bring more to the table than that (either better damage + better support, or dramatically better support).
Ideally, I want no more than 1 DC in party. But I'd like either DO or AC to be viable (not necessarily optimal) for those that prefer to play one or the other. But viable can't mean substantially worse, which is where this appears to be right now.
As an idea, I would revert TI to being a group buff but add some element of skill into its use, perhaps proc'ing the buff on crit, dot, CA (once it's fixed lol), or something else. It could function similar to how CW's controlled momentum buff proc's on control powers, but based on a relevant trigger.
Additionally, if the effect required building stacks in some form, that could remove the immediacy of the buff and address criticisms that the current form of TI is completely passive.
As a final note, I implore you to be sensitive to the significant investment that players have made in their preferred builds. A main AC and main DO are build very differently. Both can cross over to the other paragon in a pinch with a loadout, but optimized gear is effectively entirely different. Please try not try make either paragon non-viable in this update.
If you want to remove the 2 DC meta, u need to rework Anointed army daiIy, it is outperforming and makes most of your current content triviaI. It is unnecessary the change to TI, aIso you need to REWoRK and REVaMP some of the current powers and feats/ features DC dont and wont use, the Iist beIow needs to be Iooked into:
Features and powers Sooth = useIess HeaIer's Iore = rework HeaIing's word = rework Guardian of faith = revamp Punishing and soothing Iigth are stiII useIess after your baIance, they need to be reworked Sacred FIame = revamp Chains, daunting and prophecy need their cast animation to be improved Divine armor = rework AstraI shieId = revamp Geas = rework Divinity Iight = rework warding fIare = rework
Feats Most of Virtuous and FaithfuI feats are very antiquated. HeaIing has became Iess important now that everyone has their own HeaI passives from boons and Iife steaI, their majority of their feats and capstones need to be reworked and put in path with current buffs and scaIe to power buffs; additionaIy Iiving fire feat isnt great after your baIance, if you want Do DC to come cIoser to DPS revamp it to: Your at wiIIs/ divinity/ x powers/ deaI bonus damage as fire damage for 5 secs after you activate x thing 3/6/9/12/15%
With the TI nerf that's coming up which will not likely change from our past experience with Cryptic, how then does further nerfing AC power share help the already hard pressed DOs to switch over to AC if they decided to do so? It will be even less likely that they will be wanted for group play if power share is nerfed.
AA is a core feature of the ACs. ACs are geared and build around the whole concept of AA. It's like asking for the Temp HP generation of OP tanks to be removed, it would break the class. Just like DOs are now in a bad spot because they are breaking TI.
I have to say, there are special people here among the DCs that want to nerf both viable paragons so the class does actually become useless. I guess they love to spend Zen or their time building up a complete new class in the game so Cryptic can further nerf it in the future.
With the TI nerf that's coming up which will not likely change from our past experience with Cryptic, how then does further nerfing AC power share help the already hard pressed DOs to switch over to AC if they decided to do so? It will be even less likely that they will be wanted for group play if power share is nerfed.
AA is a core feature of the ACs. ACs are geared and build around the whole concept of AA. It's like asking for the Temp HP generation of OP tanks to be removed, it would break the class. Just like DOs are now in a bad spot because they are breaking TI.
I have to say, there are special people here among the DCs that want to nerf both viable paragons so the class does actually become useless. I guess they love to spend Zen or their time building up a complete new class in the game so Cryptic can further nerf it in the future.
they were suggesting AA be nerfed INSTEAD of TI not in addition to
As others have pointed out, 2 DC meta is beginning to pass for other reasons (CR mechanics), and the upcoming changes will seal the deal. Let's set that aside and agree it's a problem we want to address.
If the point was to break up the incentive to take 2 DCs in a party, I think that the removal of empowered FF or empowered BtS damage buff would be sufficient. Looks like FF was chosen, some would have liked to see BtS nerfed instead. I don't think it matters too much, actually.
A generic DC can bring DG / emp BtS / HG AC adds exalt and AA DO adds PoD and ??
As has been noted, the proposed changes make DO unattractive. Without the 15% buff from empowered FF, DO only brings chip dps and a slow to cast debuff to the table. LSS HR, MoF CW, temp SW, GF, and OP all bring more to the table than that (either better damage + better support, or dramatically better support).
Ideally, I want no more than 1 DC in party. But I'd like either DO or AC to be viable (not necessarily optimal) for those that prefer to play one or the other. But viable can't mean substantially worse, which is where this appears to be right now.
As an idea, I would revert TI to being a group buff but add some element of skill into its use, perhaps proc'ing the buff on crit, dot, CA (once it's fixed lol), or something else. It could function similar to how CW's controlled momentum buff proc's on control powers, but based on a relevant trigger.
Additionally, if the effect required building stacks in some form, that could remove the immediacy of the buff and address criticisms that the current form of TI is completely passive.
As a final note, I implore you to be sensitive to the significant investment that players have made in their preferred builds. A main AC and main DO are build very differently. Both can cross over to the other paragon in a pinch with a loadout, but optimized gear is effectively entirely different. Please try not try make either paragon non-viable in this update.
I think it´s more the other way. TI was overperforming right from the start and unthought implemented/buffed as a passive classfeature, that´s what all thought and siad right after the changes. Nothing else to slot then , set in stone and much too powerfull as a group transfered buff from a passive classfeature. FF is a nerf to discuss imo. eFF/eBtS+pod+DL would be a better setup for DO and maybe a compromise, but doing so DO-DC beats all other buffer concerning multiplier x1.55, debuffs are stable at 25%. Actual multiplier is 1.944, emans that DO double your hdps If TI stays as as a multiplier the synergy between AC and DC restarts and we got another century of: "Lfm eToS, need 18k Op, AC+Do-DC and uhDPS, pm me" I can´t stand it any more, sry. ePoD is a 27% debuff, wich is not that small empowered, if you put another compareable buff on top of HG and TI (nerfed) nothing changes. 4xbuffer runs are 99% standart these days, buffs need to be addressed somehow in the long run. That´s what actually happens since years... slowly, turn back mega-buffs. If one class or paragon, that shined for maybe >4 years now has to stand back and wait for few mods to be revived for the sake of balance , it should be that way. If AC or DO I really don´t care at all.
In mod 15 DO-DC will spend 1.35 HG comfort zone + debuff 27% ePoD and 10% TI debuff =37%, wich is nearly the same a Hunter buffs (x1.4 and at max 35% debuff) for the cost of running a pure buff build to make longstrider being effective. On top that Hunter will not spend compareable mitigation buffs like HG (+35%DR) as you allready pointed at -> CR heavy incoming damage, not dps related, mitigation from higher interest. DO-DC runs CG/BYS in general, something an AC does too. But running BtS/exalt and DG your AC will be thankfull having that DO for faster debuffing.
No clue what mof will look like in mod 15 and if that class will keep up dps multiplier consistent beside debuffs.
Warlock will look like this: Mulitplier x1.2 (capstone) x 1.18 (as long as your group stands inside PoP), plus debuffs 10% pop (as long as the boss is inside PoP), Dreadtheft 25% debuff only as long as you channel it, wich is by no means 100% uptime, more like 50% infight and a 5% aura debuff. No effective mitigation tools like DC got but heals.
As longs as you do not have an AC that double dailies (by that impossible to keep up eBtS effectively imo), you will be in the same group like Hunter/Warlock/CW/tact GF with the difference, that you have a slightly smaller dps multiplier than SW and Hunter and GF towards the group, a higher multiplier than CW i guess(1.3) and similar debuffing tools on bosses like Hunter/templock, worse than mofs, better than GF's with the option to add dps/heal/mitiagion and/or encounter reset to the group (hastening light), running ePoD, DL and (AS/Bastion/FF). The damage will not differ that much, maybe better compared to renemof (to go in mod 15?), maybe slighly lower than templocks, similar to buffhunter, in case your DO is build for dps.
I guess many did not run other classes than DC til now in this threat? Most other classes that want to run an endgame dungeon, naming TR, GWF, Hunter, SW, CW same as GF are the classes that actually build their groups on their own in chat, in case their fl is empty or actually banned and in case they don´t want to run a meta group etc. by runnnig as dps or tank, that´s what some of those classes are at primary role btw but can´t fill that role since years now due to buffmania and underperformance to some degree. DC´s in general were a wanted class for the last >4 years now, all day long on all platforms compared to other classes except OP. The class still is the strongest class concerning buffs. Maybe a better dps-spec and the option to queue as dps will be implemented in following mods, who knows.
Post edited by schietindebux on
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
Here's an idea, lets just get rid of all the extra paragons, powers, and feat trees. They obviously don't have the resources to maintain them and most are a waste of effort. It would save loads of development hours and make balancing much easier.
It is pretty much this for many of the classes. And I wouldn't blame them, that's a lot of juggling to balance things out. Id rather see some content changes, perhaps a new spell or two etc.
Comments
Let's be honest about this, it has nothing to do with the 2DC meta. It's about being a nerf to party dps. The focus is either to reduce party dps potential so they can resell it back to us or to make room for a new class to take over as the max buff/debuff leader. You can pick which conspiracy fits your ideology.
Nerfing DO was perceived as an easy method to nerf party dps because we will sate them with increased dps in solo play that we don't need.
Here's an idea, lets just get rid of all the extra paragons, powers, and feat trees. They obviously don't have the resources to maintain them and most are a waste of effort. It would save loads of development hours and make balancing much easier. Think of all the extra content they can NOT develop while NOT working on character development.
We've all heard people on the forums QQ that it happens and yet i've never seen it (or had anyone credible tell me about an instance of it happening). Personally I'd vote kick them for being AFK if it occurred. Anyone who doesn't but takes the time to come on to the forums to rage on this mythical creature the "afkado" is just being passive aggressive. I personally don't believe it happens with any degree of regularity,
> It's kinda ironic, isn't it?
>
> They try to kill the 2x DC meta, yet they don't try even one bit to fix the difference between OP and GF as tanks.
>
> It's moronic.
This right here!!
I don't play TR so correct me if I'm wrong.
Hopefully TR gets to use the vast majority of their equipment between those different builds. A DO trying to switch to AC after the nerf has to replace basically everything. Comps, artifacts, gear, enchants... They are just that different.
(It was pretty good DPS, in mod 14!)
But with the proposed Mod15 changes, there's no gear or enchants that matter. TR is nonviable in any role, or so I'm informed by people who love the TR.
My point was that for the DC, of 6 possible builds, all 6 were viable in some pretty-common circumstances.
This change nerfs five of them, all three DO builds and the Virtuous (and to a lesser degree, Faithful) AC builds, into mostly uselessness.
> Is this still about "Why can´t my one class stay double-meta in two paragons ?"
>
> OK, right? They're reducing DC from 4 viable builds (6 counting PVP) to one, but at least there's still one viable build so everyone saying "uh, this is a bad change" is just whining, right?
>
>
> I don't play TR so correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> Hopefully TR gets to use the vast majority of their equipment between those different builds. A DO trying to switch to AC after the nerf has to replace basically everything. Comps, artifacts, gear, enchants... They are just that different.
That was meant ironically towards my comment.
> I wanted to pop in to say that this is being read through, still working through the 250 responses so it may not be until tomorrow that there is an actual response but I did want to let everyone know the thread isn't being ignored.
@noworries#8859
Thank you... was following this thread closely, waiting with growing apprehension and the thought
"they don't give 2 HAMPSTERS what we think."
The only thing that would lose more DC players then this terrible decision is the impression you didn't listen to our complaints.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
That's how it worked before, and it was was useless in group content. Which is why DO's could not get into a party after the ITF rework
Thanks for acknowledging the discussion on this thread. no one runs Faithful. The Virtuous capstone was abandoned after it was reworked. Almost everyone runs Righteous capstone but may take some points in virtuous for Gift of Light or faithful for Gift of the Gods but you'd be hard pressed to find DCs running a capstone besides Righteous. I believe that same kind of thing exists for most classes. Every class has 6 "viable" options but if you want to get into a end game party you are sucked into the one or two "meta" builds. Will anybody be looking for a cc tr or a dps sw? I doubt it
Your normal is different to mine.
If the point was to break up the incentive to take 2 DCs in a party, I think that the removal of empowered FF or empowered BtS damage buff would be sufficient. Looks like FF was chosen, some would have liked to see BtS nerfed instead. I don't think it matters too much, actually.
A generic DC can bring DG / emp BtS / HG
AC adds exalt and AA
DO adds PoD and ??
As has been noted, the proposed changes make DO unattractive. Without the 15% buff from empowered FF, DO only brings chip dps and a slow to cast debuff to the table. LSS HR, MoF CW, temp SW, GF, and OP all bring more to the table than that (either better damage + better support, or dramatically better support).
Ideally, I want no more than 1 DC in party. But I'd like either DO or AC to be viable (not necessarily optimal) for those that prefer to play one or the other. But viable can't mean substantially worse, which is where this appears to be right now.
As an idea, I would revert TI to being a group buff but add some element of skill into its use, perhaps proc'ing the buff on crit, dot, CA (once it's fixed lol), or something else. It could function similar to how CW's controlled momentum buff proc's on control powers, but based on a relevant trigger.
Additionally, if the effect required building stacks in some form, that could remove the immediacy of the buff and address criticisms that the current form of TI is completely passive.
As a final note, I implore you to be sensitive to the significant investment that players have made in their preferred builds. A main AC and main DO are build very differently. Both can cross over to the other paragon in a pinch with a loadout, but optimized gear is effectively entirely different. Please try not try make either paragon non-viable in this update.
It is unnecessary the change to TI, aIso you need to REWoRK and REVaMP some of the current powers and feats/ features DC dont and wont use, the Iist beIow needs to be Iooked into:
Features and powers
Sooth = useIess
HeaIer's Iore = rework
HeaIing's word = rework
Guardian of faith = revamp
Punishing and soothing Iigth are stiII useIess after your baIance, they need to be reworked
Sacred FIame = revamp
Chains, daunting and prophecy need their cast animation to be improved
Divine armor = rework
AstraI shieId = revamp
Geas = rework
Divinity Iight = rework
warding fIare = rework
Heroics
HeaIing action = revamp
Domain synergy = revamp
HoIy resoIve = rework
Initiate of the faith = rework
Repurpose souI = rework
BatIIewise = revamp
TempIar's domain = revamp
Feats
Most of Virtuous and FaithfuI feats are very antiquated. HeaIing has became Iess important now that everyone has their own HeaI passives from boons and Iife steaI, their majority of their feats and capstones need to be reworked and put in path with current buffs and scaIe to power buffs; additionaIy Iiving fire feat isnt great after your baIance, if you want Do DC to come cIoser to DPS revamp it to: Your at wiIIs/ divinity/ x powers/ deaI bonus damage as fire damage for 5 secs after you activate x thing 3/6/9/12/15%
AA is a core feature of the ACs. ACs are geared and build around the whole concept of AA. It's like asking for the Temp HP generation of OP tanks to be removed, it would break the class. Just like DOs are now in a bad spot because they are breaking TI.
I have to say, there are special people here among the DCs that want to nerf both viable paragons so the class does actually become useless. I guess they love to spend Zen or their time building up a complete new class in the game so Cryptic can further nerf it in the future.
Nothing else to slot then , set in stone and much too powerfull as a group transfered buff from a passive classfeature.
FF is a nerf to discuss imo. eFF/eBtS+pod+DL would be a better setup for DO and maybe a compromise, but doing so DO-DC beats all other buffer concerning multiplier x1.55, debuffs are stable at 25%. Actual multiplier is 1.944, emans that DO double your hdps
If TI stays as as a multiplier the synergy between AC and DC restarts and we got another century of: "Lfm eToS, need 18k Op, AC+Do-DC and uhDPS, pm me"
I can´t stand it any more, sry.
ePoD is a 27% debuff, wich is not that small empowered, if you put another compareable buff on top of HG and TI (nerfed) nothing changes.
4xbuffer runs are 99% standart these days, buffs need to be addressed somehow in the long run. That´s what actually happens since years... slowly, turn back mega-buffs.
If one class or paragon, that shined for maybe >4 years now has to stand back and wait for few mods to be revived for the sake of balance , it should be that way. If AC or DO I really don´t care at all.
In mod 15 DO-DC will spend 1.35 HG comfort zone + debuff 27% ePoD and 10% TI debuff =37%, wich is nearly the same a Hunter buffs (x1.4 and at max 35% debuff) for the cost of running a pure buff build to make longstrider being effective.
On top that Hunter will not spend compareable mitigation buffs like HG (+35%DR) as you allready pointed at -> CR heavy incoming damage, not dps related, mitigation from higher interest.
DO-DC runs CG/BYS in general, something an AC does too. But running BtS/exalt and DG your AC will be thankfull having that DO for faster debuffing.
No clue what mof will look like in mod 15 and if that class will keep up dps multiplier consistent beside debuffs.
Warlock will look like this:
Mulitplier x1.2 (capstone) x 1.18 (as long as your group stands inside PoP), plus debuffs 10% pop (as long as the boss is inside PoP), Dreadtheft 25% debuff only as long as you channel it, wich is by no means 100% uptime, more like 50% infight and a 5% aura debuff. No effective mitigation tools like DC got but heals.
As longs as you do not have an AC that double dailies (by that impossible to keep up eBtS effectively imo), you will be in the same group like Hunter/Warlock/CW/tact GF with the difference, that you have a slightly smaller dps multiplier than SW and Hunter and GF towards the group, a higher multiplier than CW i guess(1.3) and similar debuffing tools on bosses like Hunter/templock, worse than mofs, better than GF's with the option to add dps/heal/mitiagion and/or encounter reset to the group (hastening light), running ePoD, DL and (AS/Bastion/FF).
The damage will not differ that much, maybe better compared to renemof (to go in mod 15?), maybe slighly lower than templocks, similar to buffhunter, in case your DO is build for dps.
I guess many did not run other classes than DC til now in this threat?
Most other classes that want to run an endgame dungeon, naming TR, GWF, Hunter, SW, CW same as GF are the classes that actually build their groups on their own in chat, in case their fl is empty or actually banned and in case they don´t want to run a meta group etc. by runnnig as dps or tank, that´s what some of those classes are at primary role btw but can´t fill that role since years now due to buffmania and underperformance to some degree.
DC´s in general were a wanted class for the last >4 years now, all day long on all platforms compared to other classes except OP. The class still is the strongest class concerning buffs. Maybe a better dps-spec and the option to queue as dps will be implemented in following mods, who knows.