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M15: Devoted Cleric Class Changes

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  • itblsitbls Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Living Fire: Now triggers when you drop below 35% hit points (instead of 30%)
    Living Fire: Now lasts for 5 seconds after it was triggered, even if you are healed above 35%

    ^ make it 75% and last 10 seconds, DC hardly ever goes below 70% hp they aren't tanks.
  • yoggsaron#8051 yoggsaron Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    For those saying that DOs can just switch over to AC, it's not that easy. It would cost millions to buy and upgrade new comps, insignias, enchants, artifacts, etc. Here are two examples of BiS DCs. (There might be some things out of place, but they're generally pretty close to the norm.)

    Moderator edited out banned links.

    Artifacts: You'll require an entire new set of 4, clocking in right around 5m AD, including upgrade costs. (Assuming you don't already have the materials necessary.)

    Enchantments: You'll need to replace almost every single enchantment, and due to trading losses you'll be down a minimum of a million during this exchange, probably quite a bit more.

    Armor/Weapon Enchantments: Both need to be replaced, with a net loss of around 1m AD due to the high value of Frost.

    Artifact Set: Both will need to be replaced and upgraded, costing about another million AD

    Insignias: Due to the monstrosity that is Brutality insignias, this could cost several million AD. Also note that DO uses things other than brutal to max out tertiary stats.

    Companions: One of the biggest losses, you'll need to buy and upgrade a whole set. While the initial price of the comps is low, you're looking at 8-9m for all 5.

    So at a low estimate, it will cost a BiS DO 17-18 million AD to make the switch to AC. Considering the account cap on AD, with 100k/day being the rate Cryptic has set for income, it would take either half a year or $400 to swap. For the majority of players, this is going to be quite difficult.

    Even at lower levels, you'll still see a cost of millions of AD due to the price of comps, artifacts, and enchantments. Now that DC will be limited to higher ILs to run, it will be nearly impossible for starting players/new players to play as a DC in group content.

    I would recommend either a nerf to AC or giving out unbinding tokens. (Make BoE items BoA items) DO/DC is no longer able to run group content. However, most of the gear a DO uses can be used effectively by other classes. Although nerfing AC could put other classes up onto the pedestal of "meta," it could render endgame dungeons almost impossible.
    Post edited by kreatyve on
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    lowjohn said:



    Astral Seal provides more than enough healing for most parties. Brand Of The Sun fills divinity constantly while you're using other powers. Lance Of Faith..... does damage. And not very much damage.

    My healing mainly comes from Divine Glow and Repurpose Soul, rest come from healing boons like Engine Inspiration. Even only Repurpose Soul, due to my 100% crit chance I believe it will heal more than Astral Seal. The main reason I use LoF is with 1 BotS cast and 3x LoF I reach 3 pips of divinity faster than any combination.
    lowjohn said:


    And you're not DPS, and won't be DPS without HUGE further changes."

    This is what I proposed in my post if devs want to remove DO from support pool, I am asking of HUGE further changes so DO deals comparable dps to secondary dps classes. I am glad you finally get my idea.
    lowjohn said:


    I see a nerf to FF, and a nerf to PoD, and a declaration that the goal is to make bringing more than one DC pointless, but nothing suggesting that PoD would become the go-to in your two-DC groups.

    I mean, it might be the best power left to you if you can't use BTS, but if there's another DC using BTS, you should bring a different character.

    It doesnt mean that since 2 DC run will be rare so PoD nerf is acceptable. Eventually in 10 player raid etc you will meet 2 DCs, or one support AC and one dps DO in future.
    lowjohn said:


    10% more resistance ignored = 10% more damage dealt, if you're not already carrying enough arpen to overcome 100% of the enemy's DR. And I'm assuming you aren't carrying that much arpen, because otherwise this is an even worse feature.

    (Are you suggesting that "10% reduction to enemy damage resistance" is not the same as "10% more resistance ignored"? Because if so, I really did miss that and I'm interested to see how.)

    DR debuff get diminishing returns and have nothing related to arp. These are two different thing. What I am mentionning is normal DODC without using PoD, with weapon enchantment, companion, Divine Glow and feats will bring around 60% DR debuff alone to party, thus subsequent 10% DR debuff more is only 5%+ more dps increase, not 10% flat dps increase as you mentioned NOR reducing the arp requirement by 10% on your post above. This is why I responded to you previously: "new proposed TI by dev with 25% damage buff + 10% debuff is not equal to 35% increase to personal dps, you cant calculate debuff as direct damage increase."

    Hopefully as a 18k endgame DC you finally understand how your buff debuff works now.
    lowjohn said:


    My DC is 18k. My GWF and GF are 17.5, my CW is 16.5. And no, nobody needs a "healer" to heal, they need a character who takes the HEALER SLOT in the Random Party loadout. That means a buffer/debuffer who makes the DPS good, not a half-HAMSTER wannabe-DPS who doesn't buff or DPS.

    First of all, are you 18k AC? If you are DO, I guess you will agree with me for most of the point. For normal random queue, My DPS is at top 2 mostly, as very rare good players will queue for expert/advance queue unless they want to carry the whole team. And as you said, "Random Queue". For RIQ mostly ppl will stomp over the content, and for advanced/expert, we go premade. Bear in mind after TI changes, for 1 DC party our team only get 20% buff less, you still have HG, DG, BTS etc buff debuff. The issue is you drop from T1 support to T2 support, so it opens up a slot for other support if your team already has a DC. If DO personal dps is buffed to compensate most of the party dps buff lost in the party for most random run, I think this is a good option.
    lowjohn said:


    Try: I'm saying they *aren't* a DPS alternative, and they're not going to be without massive additional changes (that aren't going to happen), and those changes (that won't happen) SHOULDN'T be made until they can actually take a DPS spot, and these current changes are a nerf that makes the build non-viable in every role.

    These changes are bad, because they don't actually affect the 4 Support problem at all. All they do is make DO DCs not a viable part of it. All they do is leave the 4-support meta intact with only one spot for a DC.

    Ya this is what devs demand, removing DO from support pool to open slot for other supports. In return, we DO should get huge buff in personal damage or else the whole patch will make DO in an awkward situation. At least buff DO to the level of secondary DPS with some scaling power and feats, for example scaling dps with crit etc.

    I have to repeat my stance again:
    "I do agree to pull off the support ability of DO but with a trade of personal damage buff.... and i mean HUGE DAMAGE!!!!"

    Since we cannot stop devs from nerfing DODC in group gameplay in the next patch, what we should do is just accept it and ask for other viable playstyle for DO. Hopefully now you understand me.
  • bluebubbl3sbluebubbl3s Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 121 Arc User

    I think the problem is most of you DCs got devoted too much into the divine oracle.
    Instead of worshipping both dieties (the: divine oracle and the: anointed champion)
    Most of you chose to be loyal to the Divine oracle. Thus causing an imballance in the power and causing the Anointed Champion to do everything in his power to change that. Now the power balance has shifted. Causing the AC to be the most worshipped one.

    Will these two ever reach the perfect harmony balance again?

    But... if you want to be the best you can be as one or the other, its a completely different gear set up - enchants, mounts etc. If you are set up for AC then swap to a DO you arent as good as a DO who has set their gear up for it.

    so its easy to say you can "worship" as both but its a jack of all trades, master of none scenario.

    I dont understand why the devs seem to have a problem with both paragons of the dc being viable. I personally prefer to play AC, and am set up for that, but I totally feel for those who prefer the DO spec and what it might take for them to change all of their set ups.

    I have a conspiracy theory: i think the devs have an ultimate agenda here, and thats to get rid of the end gamers (who likely spend less overall). Then newbies who are spending all the money get the encouragement to play till they make end game and are discouraged to leave. A nice cycle of making money for them.
    Myth (CW & DC)
    Guild Leader - Valaurakari Ascension


    VA is the creator and proud member of The Round Table Alliance
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 324 Arc User

    I think the problem is most of you DCs got devoted too much into the divine oracle.
    Instead of worshipping both dieties (the: divine oracle and the: anointed champion)
    Most of you chose to be loyal to the Divine oracle. Thus causing an imballance in the power and causing the Anointed Champion to do everything in his power to change that. Now the power balance has shifted. Causing the AC to be the most worshipped one.

    Will these two ever reach the perfect harmony balance again?

    If you don't know anything about dc's and gear enchantements and so on.
    Don't show half or no knowledge to the community!
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 324 Arc User
    I repeat it again: If the devs don't want to have 2 dc's in 5 man dungeons - stop it.
    Change the code that you can't start dungeons if there are 2 dc's in the party. There is no need to kill on Paragon.
    The do dc's today have a much harder time then AC dc's because do can 't protect.

    What role you devs want to have for the do dc?
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User

    Are we going to see another change down the road to the tune of "We didn't intend for DO to be non-viable for endgame play, so..."?

    The short answer is probably, because this is exactly what happened to DO in Module 10, which led to the rework that buffed TI to start with. He's reading that TI was buffed, he's not doing the research on the how/why DO got buffed. And you know what happened in module 10, people complained because they couldn’t get a DC for parties because there aren’t enough ACs to go around.
    strathkin said:

    they were likely looking at Class Balance, they realized too many joke on the forums the last year or two, and far too many groups have 2 Cleric's: 1 Devine & 1 Anointed.

    If they did that research they'd see far too many groups are OP + GF + DO + AC + GWF. I highly doubt they can understand why that composition was so popular. It’s far more likely they are reacting to comments not actual research. Irony being, I’m not clear what the problem is. Regardless of which classes are "Meta", there are precisely 5 customers in each 5 man run. What's important the customers or diversity. Perhaps we should focus more on what companion’s people are running or what color dye people use. This has nothing to do with making customers happy. This has everything to do with reducing buffs/debuffs as a result of more power creep to make room for more powerful gear to be introduced. The only real fix is diminishing returns, any alternative is just a bandaid and you can expect more slash and burn balancing next module.
    terrek41 said:


    The only thing that won't really need to go, is the weapon and icon. Because at least the artifact powers on them can be changed to some extent, and its not really a big loss there.

    Except the BIS weapons for DPS and support are different. AC’s tend to run pioneer while dps runs primal. If you’re a rich DO you’d currently run the stronghold set if your focus is buff as a DO.
    lowjohn said:


    Particularly, something comparable *that doesn't stack with the AC*. Because you want people to bring a DC, not two DCs with stacking different buffs.

    If you want to get away from the 4-support--DPS meta, one obvious solution to "all of these support buffs stack and that's why 4 support is best" is to MAKE THE BUFFS NOT ALL STACK. You know, like you did with potions and food and trinkets?

    These things shouldn’t be fixed through non-stacking mechanics, the appropriate solution is diminishing returns. Regardless of the source, if you want to move outside of a 4 support 1 dps meta you need an across the board reduction in buffs/debuffs.
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User
    I cannot stress hard enough for all DCs. If you are a DO DC and these changes happen. Do not rebuild to AC. In the absence of real solutions that encourage party balancing this is not the end of the nerfs but a stepping stone. More are coming as they make room for additional power creep or (conspiracy hat on) make room for another support class (conspiracy hat off). This means that any investment in AC/DC will be wasted.

    Further to that point, are you better off spending millions upon millions building an AC/DC you don't enjoy or spending million upon millions creating another class you find more enjoyable than AC/DC. Don't waste your AD changing into a class you don't enjoy and are reasonable confident will be nerfed again in Mod 16.

    As always I recommend that players focus on the parts of the game they enjoy.. Capitalize on the parts of the game you find fun, avoid the stuff that makes you hesitate to login. The game is meant to be enjoyable. If you are having problems finding enjoyment in the game, it may be time to take a break. This is the advice I always share with my guildies and friends.

    That logic applies to professions, running explorer cases, farming heralds for RP, etc. Just because its the most profitable use of your time, doesn't mean its worth your time to run it.

  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    Some of those changes are pretty much irrelevant - I mean, divinity at-wills? Nobody ever uses those, so why bother changing them?

    The TI change is the big one. It makes DO DC completely irrelevant and unusable for group play. This is too much. This is going to be an absolute pain for low-geared DCs - they will simply not be wanted at all in groups - for a DC to get into a group he will have to have a power-sharing AC build, and that is hard when you are under 14K IL or so.

    this

    DODC dead in group play, no ifs and buts

    balance - lol. nerf into the ground - yes

    nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf, its what happens

  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    Making DO DCs totally non-viable in groups will solve the "2-DC" problem for sure. Now many dedicated DCs will either quit or spend some millions of AD on getting a usable AC loadout.

    Of course, those changes will do nothing with the real problem which is that 5-man content seems taiilored for 1-dps, 4 buffers, which does not correspond to the class distribution at all.

    I wonder what's next - make the DOs totally useless when the new buffer class is introduced in mod 16?
    Hoping for improvements...
  • pakas#8388 pakas Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    > @onlymat said:
    > I repeat it again: If the devs don't want to have 2 dc's in 5 man dungeons - stop it.
    > Change the code that you can't start dungeons if there are 2 dc's in the party. There is no need to kill on Paragon.
    > The do dc's today have a much harder time then AC dc's because do can 't protect.
    >
    > What role you devs want to have for the do dc?

    I was thinking that to. But then how can we do fun runs in private Q ?

    I'm thinkin some of you guys are missing the whole point here. Content and dungeons at end game weree too easy and fast with 2 DC meta so I'm glad and I think it's about time they end it. DO was buffed few mods ago in expense of the AC that was nerfed with AA being 50% effective of what it used to be, making DOs more viable buffer when TI was added as a group buff. The DO is still not as good as AC at true endgame, but its quite close there. I'm glad they chose not to nerf the AC further cause single DC runs without AC DC would've been tougher than single DO DC runs. I have both specs at end game and without a doubt the AC is much better solo buffer and I welcome everyone to try it themselves.

    So even if they kept the DO buffs and just prevented people with going with a 2 DCs, most parties would still prefer an endgame AC over endgame DO (if they know what they're doing :) )

    As DO you'll have to make some changes but who hasn't during this game. Every class has been nerfed/boosted at some point. Its not as big as you make of it though. All the enchants are tradable so you could trade already whatever you're using for Radiants and Black Ice on yourself and Silveries on companion. Also insignas you could trade or sell and get new relevant ones. Most of the main gear is pretty free to have, the rings you have to farm, weapons you don't need to switch. Main work is Belt and Neck and new artifacts if you have pure DPS ones. You could work with the tiger\Con Artist for now so no need to switch main companion. The other companions give minimal gain in power so that's not a huge priority down the list. 2 of those comps are new for the ACs as well, so now when you switch be glad that you didn't upgrade 300 power comps just to have comps with 700 power few mods later. (did I say every class gets adjustments ?) Those 300 power companions are useless for AC now as well. The game constantly changes and players have to make readjustment.

    The main issue here is that DO didn't use to need to have real gear to be efficent so low level DOs had easy times getting parties. The way I see it, end game DOs shouldn't have any issues changing to AC. The problem is the low level DOs which will become low level ACs which will have hard time getting groups.
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 324 Arc User

    > @onlymat said:

    > I repeat it again: If the devs don't want to have 2 dc's in 5 man dungeons - stop it.

    > Change the code that you can't start dungeons if there are 2 dc's in the party. There is no need to kill on Paragon.

    > The do dc's today have a much harder time then AC dc's because do can 't protect.

    >

    > What role you devs want to have for the do dc?



    I was thinking that to. But then how can we do fun runs in private Q ?



    I'm thinkin some of you guys are missing the whole point here. Content and dungeons at end game weree too easy and fast with 2 DC meta so I'm glad and I think it's about time they end it. DO was buffed few mods ago in expense of the AC that was nerfed with AA being 50% effective of what it used to be, making DOs more viable buffer when TI was added as a group buff. The DO is still not as good as AC at true endgame, but its quite close there. I'm glad they chose not to nerf the AC further cause single DC runs without AC DC would've been tougher than single DO DC runs. I have both specs at end game and without a doubt the AC is much better solo buffer and I welcome everyone to try it themselves.



    So even if they kept the DO buffs and just prevented people with going with a 2 DCs, most parties would still prefer an endgame AC over endgame DO (if they know what they're doing :) )



    As DO you'll have to make some changes but who hasn't during this game. Every class has been nerfed/boosted at some point. Its not as big as you make of it though. All the enchants are tradable so you could trade already whatever you're using for Radiants and Black Ice on yourself and Silveries on companion. Also insignas you could trade or sell and get new relevant ones. Most of the main gear is pretty free to have, the rings you have to farm, weapons you don't need to switch. Main work is Belt and Neck and new artifacts if you have pure DPS ones. You could work with the tiger\Con Artist for now so no need to switch main companion. The other companions give minimal gain in power so that's not a huge priority down the list. 2 of those comps are new for the ACs as well, so now when you switch be glad that you didn't upgrade 300 power comps just to have comps with 700 power few mods later. (did I say every class gets adjustments ?) Those 300 power companions are useless for AC now as well. The game constantly changes and players have to make readjustment.



    The main issue here is that DO didn't use to need to have real gear to be efficent so low level DOs had easy times getting parties. The way I see it, end game DOs shouldn't have any issues changing to AC. The problem is the low level DOs which will become low level ACs which will have hard time getting groups.

    " DO you'll have to make some changes"

    really? are you sure? Its not possible for me and the easy Solution is: don't allow 2 dc's in 5 man Dungeons - Problems solved and all the do dc's that have put alot of work over years in their do can play like they want and are still buffers!
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 324 Arc User
    putzboy78 said:

    I cannot stress hard enough for all DCs. If you are a DO DC and these changes happen. Do not rebuild to AC. In the absence of real solutions that encourage party balancing this is not the end of the nerfs but a stepping stone. More are coming as they make room for additional power creep or (conspiracy hat on) make room for another support class (conspiracy hat off). This means that any investment in AC/DC will be wasted.

    Further to that point, are you better off spending millions upon millions building an AC/DC you don't enjoy or spending million upon millions creating another class you find more enjoyable than AC/DC. Don't waste your AD changing into a class you don't enjoy and are reasonable confident will be nerfed again in Mod 16.

    As always I recommend that players focus on the parts of the game they enjoy.. Capitalize on the parts of the game you find fun, avoid the stuff that makes you hesitate to login. The game is meant to be enjoyable. If you are having problems finding enjoyment in the game, it may be time to take a break. This is the advice I always share with my guildies and friends.

    That logic applies to professions, running explorer cases, farming heralds for RP, etc. Just because its the most profitable use of your time, doesn't mean its worth your time to run it.

    you should pm the developers - maybe they listen to you.
    I had alot of times where noone runs with DO. Was hard to run FBI and so on.
    The best Solution would be - just don't allow 2 dc's in a five man Dungeon - easy to code and noone have to leave.

    The thing is. If these Changes go live I refuse to respec to AC. All nerfs buffs and so on since the beginnig of the game I could live with.
    I also could live with a nerf of TI - i can't live with destroying my class.
    I'm 17.3k DO (not in a GH20 Guild but not too far away) and it's the first time I thinking of quitting this game forever.
    I also have a 16.5k cw thats fun to play - but if my DO is killed not only nerfed - i think I leave the game for good.
    I'm also a guild leader and a loyal customer over the years - but with this going live - I'm done.

    For TI i can suggest a better Option too. The percentage of buffs is based on critical chance? So when you crit chance is 100% your buffs from TI are 20 %. This way a good DO dc with high lvl gear and high critical strike would be better than a lower one. Also the AC dc coul not switch to be as effective as DO.

    Not sure how many pure DO's are out there but I'm one of them.

    I'm sure they don't rethink and so I look for other games now. Playing 1 last CR to get my chest piece and thats it.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    onlymat said:

    putzboy78 said:

    I cannot stress hard enough for all DCs. If you are a DO DC and these changes happen. Do not rebuild to AC. In the absence of real solutions that encourage party balancing this is not the end of the nerfs but a stepping stone. More are coming as they make room for additional power creep or (conspiracy hat on) make room for another support class (conspiracy hat off). This means that any investment in AC/DC will be wasted.

    Further to that point, are you better off spending millions upon millions building an AC/DC you don't enjoy or spending million upon millions creating another class you find more enjoyable than AC/DC. Don't waste your AD changing into a class you don't enjoy and are reasonable confident will be nerfed again in Mod 16.

    As always I recommend that players focus on the parts of the game they enjoy.. Capitalize on the parts of the game you find fun, avoid the stuff that makes you hesitate to login. The game is meant to be enjoyable. If you are having problems finding enjoyment in the game, it may be time to take a break. This is the advice I always share with my guildies and friends.

    That logic applies to professions, running explorer cases, farming heralds for RP, etc. Just because its the most profitable use of your time, doesn't mean its worth your time to run it.

    you should pm the developers - maybe they listen to you.
    I had alot of times where noone runs with DO. Was hard to run FBI and so on.
    The best Solution would be - just don't allow 2 dc's in a five man Dungeon - easy to code and noone have to leave.

    The thing is. If these Changes go live I refuse to respec to AC. All nerfs buffs and so on since the beginnig of the game I could live with.
    I also could live with a nerf of TI - i can't live with destroying my class.
    I'm 17.3k DO (not in a GH20 Guild but not too far away) and it's the first time I thinking of quitting this game forever.
    I also have a 16.5k cw thats fun to play - but if my DO is killed not only nerfed - i think I leave the game for good.
    I'm also a guild leader and a loyal customer over the years - but with this going live - I'm done.

    For TI i can suggest a better Option too. The percentage of buffs is based on critical chance? So when you crit chance is 100% your buffs from TI are 20 %. This way a good DO dc with high lvl gear and high critical strike would be better than a lower one. Also the AC dc coul not switch to be as effective as DO.

    Not sure how many pure DO's are out there but I'm one of them.

    I'm sure they don't rethink and so I look for other games now. Playing 1 last CR to get my chest piece and thats it.
    I'm almost a pure do. I do have a ac but it's only dragged out for rescue situations. ie for a party stuck at a last boss. or for something like codg where I just want a lot of runs. I honestly don't enjoy being ac. and while my ac is respectably built, it's not ideally built. it still has a some DO things attached. companions are all for the do build for instance. I think that's fine for how I use my ac. but if the do becomes obsolete people will expect to see different things. lol. one of the things I really like about it is how similar it is to the hr. it's easy for me to go back and forth. the rotations for ac are a different pace though. it looks like the hr build is going to remain stuffed up for trapper too though. the Careful attack is unmentioned. so that isn't there to go back to either and again I don't really enjoy combat.. never have.

    this is all just so disheartening. I'm just shy of 18k on my DO. that was my ongoing drive in the game was to break 18k again. now.. it's really pointless. I don't have anything to work for anymore. and yeah, you could go start from fresh on any class.. but my luck has been everything I like gets nerfbatted to the point it's unplayable. my next choice would have been tr... Maybe cw will be viable.. but will it still be viable in mod 16.. just can't trust the devs here to have your back in your investment in game.

    it would be nice to have unbind to account tokens when they do things like this so it didn't feel so overwhelmingly harsh.
  • onlymatonlymat Member Posts: 324 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    onlymat said:

    putzboy78 said:

    I cannot stress hard enough for all DCs. If you are a DO DC and these changes happen. Do not rebuild to AC. In the absence of real solutions that encourage party balancing this is not the end of the nerfs but a stepping stone. More are coming as they make room for additional power creep or (conspiracy hat on) make room for another support class (conspiracy hat off). This means that any investment in AC/DC will be wasted.

    Further to that point, are you better off spending millions upon millions building an AC/DC you don't enjoy or spending million upon millions creating another class you find more enjoyable than AC/DC. Don't waste your AD changing into a class you don't enjoy and are reasonable confident will be nerfed again in Mod 16.

    As always I recommend that players focus on the parts of the game they enjoy.. Capitalize on the parts of the game you find fun, avoid the stuff that makes you hesitate to login. The game is meant to be enjoyable. If you are having problems finding enjoyment in the game, it may be time to take a break. This is the advice I always share with my guildies and friends.

    That logic applies to professions, running explorer cases, farming heralds for RP, etc. Just because its the most profitable use of your time, doesn't mean its worth your time to run it.

    you should pm the developers - maybe they listen to you.
    I had alot of times where noone runs with DO. Was hard to run FBI and so on.
    The best Solution would be - just don't allow 2 dc's in a five man Dungeon - easy to code and noone have to leave.

    The thing is. If these Changes go live I refuse to respec to AC. All nerfs buffs and so on since the beginnig of the game I could live with.
    I also could live with a nerf of TI - i can't live with destroying my class.
    I'm 17.3k DO (not in a GH20 Guild but not too far away) and it's the first time I thinking of quitting this game forever.
    I also have a 16.5k cw thats fun to play - but if my DO is killed not only nerfed - i think I leave the game for good.
    I'm also a guild leader and a loyal customer over the years - but with this going live - I'm done.

    For TI i can suggest a better Option too. The percentage of buffs is based on critical chance? So when you crit chance is 100% your buffs from TI are 20 %. This way a good DO dc with high lvl gear and high critical strike would be better than a lower one. Also the AC dc coul not switch to be as effective as DO.

    Not sure how many pure DO's are out there but I'm one of them.

    I'm sure they don't rethink and so I look for other games now. Playing 1 last CR to get my chest piece and thats it.
    I'm almost a pure do. I do have a ac but it's only dragged out for rescue situations. ie for a party stuck at a last boss. or for something like codg where I just want a lot of runs. I honestly don't enjoy being ac. and while my ac is respectably built, it's not ideally built. it still has a some DO things attached. companions are all for the do build for instance. I think that's fine for how I use my ac. but if the do becomes obsolete people will expect to see different things. lol. one of the things I really like about it is how similar it is to the hr. it's easy for me to go back and forth. the rotations for ac are a different pace though. it looks like the hr build is going to remain stuffed up for trapper too though. the Careful attack is unmentioned. so that isn't there to go back to either and again I don't really enjoy combat.. never have.

    this is all just so disheartening. I'm just shy of 18k on my DO. that was my ongoing drive in the game was to break 18k again. now.. it's really pointless. I don't have anything to work for anymore. and yeah, you could go start from fresh on any class.. but my luck has been everything I like gets nerfbatted to the point it's unplayable. my next choice would have been tr... Maybe cw will be viable.. but will it still be viable in mod 16.. just can't trust the devs here to have your back in your investment in game.

    it would be nice to have unbind to account tokens when they do things like this so it didn't feel so overwhelmingly harsh.
    do should stay check here an write you comment what you think:

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1242862/why-do-dc-needs-to-stay-as-it-is-group-composition-is-better-then
  • soythesauce#5192 soythesauce Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    Im going to up this^
    18,3 ac here. Always been ac with do loadout full debuff no dps for the Situation its needed.
    I prefere ac questing dunno. Do doesnt apeal to me.

    In that regard for my fellow do players, please make do que as a dps and revise the debuff Potential. To put them in the place were sw cw are. A vailid dps Support
  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    jazzfong said:

    lowjohn said:



    Astral Seal provides more than enough healing for most parties. Brand Of The Sun fills divinity constantly while you're using other powers. Lance Of Faith..... does damage. And not very much damage.

    My healing mainly comes from Divine Glow and Repurpose Soul, rest come from healing boons like Engine Inspiration. Even only Repurpose Soul, due to my 100% crit chance I believe it will heal more than Astral Seal. The main reason I use LoF is with 1 BotS cast and 3x LoF I reach 3 pips of divinity faster than any combination.
    I use those too, but ACT tells me consistently that Astral Seal does more healing than anything else I do, and I like being able to have a nice big mark of "if you want a heal, hit THAT GUY" for people who somehow aren't keeping themselves at 100% with lifesteal.
    jazzfong said:

    lowjohn said:


    And you're not DPS, and won't be DPS without HUGE further changes."

    This is what I proposed in my post if devs want to remove DO from support pool, I am asking of HUGE further changes so DO deals comparable dps to secondary dps classes. I am glad you finally get my idea.
    Yeah, I misunderstood you to be saying that DOs were viable DPS and should be made more viable, rather than saying they're not currently viable DPS but you want them to be made viable.

    And I disagree, I don't think they should be made into DPS, but now I get what you said a little better.
    jazzfong said:

    lowjohn said:


    I see a nerf to FF, and a nerf to PoD, and a declaration that the goal is to make bringing more than one DC pointless, but nothing suggesting that PoD would become the go-to in your two-DC groups.

    I mean, it might be the best power left to you if you can't use BTS, but if there's another DC using BTS, you should bring a different character.

    It doesnt mean that since 2 DC run will be rare so PoD nerf is acceptable. Eventually in 10 player raid etc you will meet 2 DCs, or one support AC and one dps DO in future.
    Sure. And when you do, the DO uses Empowered BTS and the AC uses Empowered Exaltation.
    jazzfong said:

    lowjohn said:


    My DC is 18k. My GWF and GF are 17.5, my CW is 16.5. And no, nobody needs a "healer" to heal, they need a character who takes the HEALER SLOT in the Random Party loadout. That means a buffer/debuffer who makes the DPS good, not a half-HAMSTER wannabe-DPS who doesn't buff or DPS.

    First of all, are you 18k AC? If you are DO, I guess you will agree with me for most of the point. For normal random queue, My DPS is at top 2 mostly, as very rare good players will queue for expert/advance queue unless they want to carry the whole team. And as you said, "Random Queue". For RIQ mostly ppl will stomp over the content, and for advanced/expert, we go premade. Bear in mind after TI changes, for 1 DC party our team only get 20% buff less, you still have HG, DG, BTS etc buff debuff. The issue is you drop from T1 support to T2 support, so it opens up a slot for other support if your team already has a DC. If DO personal dps is buffed to compensate most of the party dps buff lost in the party for most random run, I think this is a good option.
    I spend most of my time in DO because I prefer the play experience, but I have AC loadouts for when that's needed. It means my enchants are a bit of a mixed bag: I'm not quite BIS in either (closer to BIS DO), but honestly I don't need to be for any current content.

    And yeah, I'm usually top DPS or top 2 DPS in a pug, but that's pure gear score: there just aren't a lot of 16k+ people who know their stuff pugging, and when it comes to power, quantity is a lot like quality. If I get into a group with 3 *actual* DPS classes with ~16k scores I'll expect to come fourth, third in a pug because on average one of them won't know how to play.

    (And I regularly pug RAQ with my DC or GF late at night when most of my guild is asleep, if I haven't done it yet and need the AD. But yeah, that does mean I'm carrying the team some times. Pugging REQ just seems like a bad idea in general.)
    jazzfong said:

    Since we cannot stop devs from nerfing DODC in group gameplay in the next patch, what we should do is just accept it and ask for other viable playstyle for DO. Hopefully now you understand me.

    Except, this *is* a feedback thread, about Preview stuff. We *can* convince them not to nerf the DO build quite as hard as this patch set would. It's happened before - remember when Bonding runestones were going to have a 50% uptime?
  • soythesauce#5192 soythesauce Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    A big Factor id still like to know. Are there beeing Changes made to damg mitigation. Will that be a thing. In which case. Playstyls change.....
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    This definitely affects the DODCs that run with the 2xDC crowd. For solo queuers, it's still disappointing, but kind of meh to me. The only 2xDC runs I've been in are CoDG pugs that happen to draw two DCs. The single DODC runs will just take a bit longer. The extra personal damage buff is nice in RIQ where I often find myself as the top DPS.
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User
    disallowing 2DCs in party is not an option. It creates barriers to socialization. I already have a guildie I routinely can't run random queues with because we are both DCs. I've accepted this in random queues (begrudgingly) but to remove the ability to interact all together is a terrible idea and defeats the purpose of an MMO. The correct solution is to adjust rewards for random queues vs premades. Heck, nerf premade rewards into the ground but don't remove the potential for social play.

    If you force people to run rainbow parties then they would have no reason to not run random queues other than to pick their dungeon. And maybe that's what they are really targeting. They see low participation in REQ. People will queue it now but just abandon if they get anything besides TONG because Cradle requires to much mechanic knowledge to be successful (and one person can destroy the run if they refuse to drag the cube to the right corners (I know its happened to me when I dared a REQ cradle) and CR is simply to hard with a rainbow party, especially when the second sister bugs.

    Do the right thing, adjust rewards between premade and random queues to incentivize people to run your format without killing the freedom of choice.

    Also btw, i'm doubtful a dps DC will ever be viable in dungeon because our dps is reliant on DOTs (which are painfully slow), timing on our own stacked buff/debuffs, and targeting with Daunting Light which is near impossible in 5 mans because mob direction is not terribly predictable and the spell is slow and doesn't self target. You need predictable mob behavior and proper timing to hit with it. Makes it totally doable in solo play where you have all the threat or on dummies which are stationary.
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