Something needs to change regarding private queues

hustin1 · July 2018

Something is very wrong with dungeon queuing. I'm not talking about random queues; I'm talking about when groups set out to run a particular dungeon. If you're a DC or OP you can get invited into queues all day long; indeed, I had to use my DC's to farm enough Brave seals to outfit everyone else with primal. However, if you're a support class, good luck. It is INCREDIBLY hard to get in a group as, for instance, an HR, a non-MoF CW, or a non-templock SW, and even harder to not get kicked if you don't have the best DPS of everyone there.

What's more, if you're inexperienced in a dungeon, or don't have the preferred build (or not the preferred gear but you have the preferred build), be ready to be kicked at the first sign of problems. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

Everyone wants a guaranteed win, and as a result the elitism is so thick you could cut it with a knife. A lot of people are getting left out -- a whole lot. I am the leader of my guild (the helm guild in our alliance), and I hear the pain of our alliance members on almost a daily basis.

I'm not sure what should happen -- limit private queuing to alliance members only? Limit it to people on your friends list? Limit it to once per day? I'm not at all sure what the best solution is. I don't think eliminating it entirely is the right way to go, but at least when you had Dungeon Delve hour and simple queues everyone got a chance to participate (though insta-kicking was a REAL problem, especially at the start of Mod 6).

I challenge the devs: build a level-70 (non-BiS) HR, or a CW who isn't a MoF, or a SW who isn't a templock, and try to get in a group for ToNG or CoDG. Then try to STAY in the group after a party wipe or two.

pterias · July 2018

Yeah, it's pretty bad. I've decided to not concern myself with it anymore.

You basically have four options:
1. Play a several-thousand dollar "preferred" DPS class.
2. Play a cookie cutter support class/build.
3. Spend far more time begging than actually running, and be miserable.
4. Stop bothering with endgame content altogether.

There are so many things that have gone into creating the current situation, I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm not even sure anymore if there's any way back.

odskyr · July 2018

hustin1 said:
...
I challenge the devs: build a level-70 (non-BiS) HR, or a CW who isn't a MoF, or a SW who isn't a templock, and try to get in a group for ToNG or CoDG. Then try to STAY in the group after a party wipe or two.

But this is nothing the developers could change. It's only the behavior of the Players who are looking for BiS dps.

tchefi · July 2018

Sticking with guild-ally and/or friendlist to organize yourself your private TONG is the way to go, as generally these people won't be bothered by a >45min TONG, by a "far from the meta" group or by carrying a "new player" in the dungeon.
Stop being lazy, make your own group, don't wait for someone making it for you, if you are waiting to see a LF1M + your class yeah good luck if you are not OP/DC/support...

In my opinion, Looking for Group channels (basic one or customized ones) or Zone shouting in the Enclave, should only be the last option (or the option to fill your friendlist with some good OP, DC, other supports and HDPS after a nice run).
It's there for speed runs, looking for efficient toons and treating them as kleenex tissues => blow then drop, most of the time without any word aside hello at the start / thx at the end (or spamming chat as a raging berzerker if something fails once).
Not the funniest groups, but not so often a pain (and sometime you meet some kind players, who will fit well in a friendlist, so it's still worth to try time to time), and if you want the fast and furious side of neverwinter you can ^^...

Part of a MMORPG game is relying on the social (even if nowdays the RP letters don't mean quite what they were meaning before the rise of WoW ...).
If you can somehow build a steady "same 5 players group", able to play together regulary (even better if each one has 2 stuffed toons like 1 DPS and 1support or OP), you have a highway for doing everything or be able to help other guildies to do anything they need/want.
It should be one of your guild/ally goals to be able to never rely on pickup guys in the enclave or LFG channels.

arcanjo86 · July 2018

guess you didnt came across players asking for dc with no cleanse feat because they need gf to 3 shot bosses xD

archangelzorak01 · July 2018

to the OP. Every person playing this game is entitled to, and has the right to play it how they want. From the type who doesn't care about build, IL, gear or speed to the type who wants to create the most powerful/efficient groups possible. There is nothing wrong with either playstyle nor should there be an incentive built into the game to attempt to change either of those behaviors.

It falls to each individual to get the most out of the time they spend playing the game, it is not the responsibility of the developers or anyone else.

ecrana · July 2018

First, private queue works just fine. It exists to allow people to form a group in any way they want to run whatever they want. 100% functioning as intended.

If certain classes can't get into a pug private group that has to do with the classes themselves not private queuing. Breaking private queues so people are restricted in how they can form them is just a bad fix to avoid the real problem. A superior class keeping others from getting into a queue.

Regardless, private queues exist for everyone. Make your own queue. I know my friends don't discriminate against class. It's about getting it done. We've picked up SWs, CWs, etc for T9G and had just as much success as going in with a meta group. If we go in with a non-meta group and can't get it done after a certain amount of attempts then one of us has to leave and it's a group decision. If we're carrying someone on a 1st run we will almost always find a way to let that person finish the run.

The idea of limiting your private queue to either friend lists/alliance/guild members would solve nothing. All you'll see is fewer people calling out in zone to fill a group. I suspect most start a private queue the same way. First you grab what friends you can, if you dont have 5 or 10, you move on to searching for guildies to join, if you're still short you see if alliance members want in, if you're still short you hit zone/lfg to fill out.

Limiting a private queue won't do anything other than slow down the process when people can't find someone in their alliance, etc. Meanwhile, people being left out are still being left out so kudos. More people unhappy.

plasticbat · July 2018

Private queue is private. You do whatever you want. You choose whoever you want. You choose how many people you want.
If you want your queue to be guild/alliance/friend only, you can.
If you want 25 TR to run Tiamat, you can.

pitshade · July 2018

It never fails to amuse me how there are legions of players who can't get groups. As if there is some other kind of players who are the only ones allowed to make groups, and these non favored players are at the mercy of these lucky few.

Tell all the people complaining to each make a support class. Then they can form parties whenever they want instead of begging the elitists for runs. True, everyone can't play their favorite all the time, but if you want to build a real community that runs dungeons, it requires give and take.

micky1p00 · July 2018

hustin1 said:
Something is very wrong with dungeon queuing. I'm not talking about random queues; I'm talking about when groups set out to run a particular dungeon.
If you're a DC or OP you can get invited into queues all day long; indeed, I had to use my DC's to farm enough Brave seals to outfit everyone else with primal. However, if you're a support class, good luck. It is INCREDIBLY hard to get in a group as, for instance, an HR, a non-MoF CW, or a non-templock SW, and even harder to not get kicked if you don't have the best DPS of everyone there.

1. It's not a dungeon queuing problem, in IT the technical term for this will be "PEBCAK".
2. It's also a class balance issue, when there is such a significant difference between class and in addition one DPS spot when the majority of the playerbase want to hack and bash things, then like all things in nature, there is a competition on a limited resource.

But at the end, there will be always issues with 2, so it's up to 1 to solve it.... again, not a technical or software issue.

hustin1 said:

What's more, if you're inexperienced in a dungeon, or don't have the preferred build (or not the preferred gear but you have the preferred build), be ready to be kicked at the first sign of problems. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

Same as above.

hustin1 said:

Everyone wants a guaranteed win, and as a result the elitism is so thick you could cut it with a knife. A lot of people are getting left out -- a whole lot. I am the leader of my guild (the helm guild in our alliance), and I hear the pain of our alliance members on almost a daily basis.

Wait, Everyone? So you will not run with your friends even if it's their first time? Or they are not BiS? Or they are as skilled as me when I type SMSs, one finger, one letter at a time.

If you are, you don't need to look further for a change, look in a mirror and start there. Your alliance have issue making groups, start making groups.

If you aren't then obviously, it's not everyone, and perhaps it's very far from everyone and you are just looking in the places which are instead if creating a place which doesn't...

hustin1 said:

I'm not sure what should happen -- limit private queuing to alliance members only? Limit it to people on your friends list? Limit it to once per day? I'm not at all sure what the best solution is. I don't think eliminating it entirely is the right way to go, but at least when you had Dungeon Delve hour and simple queues everyone got a chance to participate (though insta-kicking was a REAL problem, especially at the start of Mod 6).

I fail to see the logic here.

1. Public queue doesn't force me to group with you. I will not suddenly jump on my DC and group up with random DPS.. Public queue will force my premade to be 3 DPS, 1 Tank 1 Healer. So instead of helping you, you just screwed me from helping my unguarded, inexperienced friends. When now I can take spares of each class, to help someone to learn without pressure, or gear up, or create 'meta' group good enough to carry someone who and spelunking are not on friendly terms and they can enjoy the game. You force everyone into a group that has much less chance to succeeded, so it has to rely more heavily on gear, perfect buid, and skill. Wait.... Isn't that the thing you complain about?

2. What chance to participate at dungeon delve hours? I think you have an acute case of selective memory with pink glasses (sorry, pink glasses = favorable outlook on history instead of objective, I forgot the idiom but I hope the idea is clear)
It was exactly the same since game inception, if you tried to lfg in lfg there was no "everyone get to participate". If you wanted for everyone to participate you joined custom channels and/or guilds.
As someone who played unfavorable class through those times I can tell you all about doing CN as not CW... Either you have community and friends, or you sit in the corner.

hustin1 said:

I challenge the devs: build a level-70 (non-BiS) HR, or a CW who isn't a MoF, or a SW who isn't a templock, and try to get in a group for ToNG or CoDG. Then try to STAY in the group after a party wipe or two.

Really.. You know how I ran with my SS Thaum Fluffy CW that still has lightning? Iv'e spent significant time and effort to make that first line in my signature meaningful.
Not perfect, not without mistakes, not equally important for everyone, but it works, and I get to run my Fluffy outdated CW that I only remember how to mash buttons at and inspect the floor for loot from really up close, and so are others, who can enjoy the game without worrying about skill, gear, etc.. All thanks to the great people who allow this, and make the time in NW enjoyable (many times in-spite of some game changes and the game itself).

At the same time it is give and take, and I will not just join with my 'superbly' build CW with a less geared less experienced party and add a significant chance for failure 'just because I want to play differently'. I read guides, I try to be up to date, and know the risks, because at the end, my friends time is also valuable.

There is now more information about the game mechanics than ever. It's now easier to adapt with loadouts and the new partial retrains. There must be balance between the "selfishness" of playing a class like I want too, and not the best way it contributes to success and the overall party goals and everyone time. What friends are willing to allow, is not the same thing expected from a stranger, until that stranger becomes a friend.. We help others and they help us happens more in smaller communities and not random encounters.

micky1p00 · July 2018

pterias said:
Yeah, it's pretty bad. I've decided to not concern myself with it anymore.

You basically have four options:
1. Play a several-thousand dollar "preferred" DPS class.
2. Play a cookie cutter support class/build.
3. Spend far more time begging than actually running, and be miserable.
4. Stop bothering with endgame content altogether.

There are so many things that have gone into creating the current situation, I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm not even sure anymore if there's any way back.

And you know...

5. Join a guild.

(Sorry, I just had to poke it, it was just like this huge red bullseye I couldn't resist when I saw it

)

checkmatein3 · July 2018

micky1p00 said:

pterias said:
Yeah, it's pretty bad. I've decided to not concern myself with it anymore.

You basically have four options:
1. Play a several-thousand dollar "preferred" DPS class.
2. Play a cookie cutter support class/build.
3. Spend far more time begging than actually running, and be miserable.
4. Stop bothering with endgame content altogether.

There are so many things that have gone into creating the current situation, I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm not even sure anymore if there's any way back.
And you know...

5. Join a guild.

(Sorry, I just had to poke it, it was just like this huge red bullseye I couldn't resist when I saw it )

5b. Join a good guild filled with cool people. I lucked out.

plasticbat · July 2018

checkmatein3 said:

micky1p00 said:

pterias said:
Yeah, it's pretty bad. I've decided to not concern myself with it anymore.

You basically have four options:
1. Play a several-thousand dollar "preferred" DPS class.
2. Play a cookie cutter support class/build.
3. Spend far more time begging than actually running, and be miserable.
4. Stop bothering with endgame content altogether.

There are so many things that have gone into creating the current situation, I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm not even sure anymore if there's any way back.
And you know...

5. Join a guild.

(Sorry, I just had to poke it, it was just like this huge red bullseye I couldn't resist when I saw it )
5b. Join a good guild filled with cool people. I lucked out.

5c. Join a good guild in a good alliance filled with cool people. Communicate/interact with them. You will have a lot of runs and also learn a lot of things.

mynaam · July 2018

odskyr#3177 said:

hustin1 said:
...
I challenge the devs: build a level-70 (non-BiS) HR, or a CW who isn't a MoF, or a SW who isn't a templock, and try to get in a group for ToNG or CoDG. Then try to STAY in the group after a party wipe or two.
But this is nothing the developers could change. It's only the behavior of the Players who are looking for BiS dps.

They can put a 4 hour timer on kicking like on random... that way people will kick less... the timer should count to everyone that vote yes for kick that way 4 players can only kick 1 player and not 4 players and there are reprucusions for kicking players

demonmonger · July 2018

> @pterias said:
> Yeah, it's pretty bad. I've decided to not concern myself with it anymore.
>
> You basically have four options:
> 1. Play a several-thousand dollar "preferred" DPS class.
> 2. Play a cookie cutter support class/build.
> 3. Spend far more time begging than actually running, and be miserable.
> 4. Stop bothering with endgame content altogether.
>
> There are so many things that have gone into creating the current situation, I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm not even sure anymore if there's any way back.

Bonding..super buffs and powercreep... these caused most of our issues.

I never did get on the bonding bandwagon.. probably never will.

Content was created around these issues above... if you don't have them you struggle to even compete.

asterotg · July 2018

Well, you should take some of the tips here and change your playstyle and or attitude.

Plz Dev, make the other ppl play with me/ carry me in endgame dungeons, seriously?

I know a few BIS players, who play by the rule, I did spent years building my char (most did spent time, not money, as many of you claim), why should I run with lesser geared/expirienced players and waste my time. While I dont share their point of view, I can understand it.

Most ppl with expirience and good gear run with ppl from:
1. their friend list (BC you like your friends and you know how well they can play)
2. Their guild (You like/ know most of your guild members and you are interested in their progress)
3. Their alliance (you know some and social reasons)
5. LFG (you dont really care, who you will pick up, bc you could do it with your current group and the random might shave a few minutes from the run. Rule number 1 for lfg, never expect anything)

The ppl with attitude I saw are mostly somehow mediocre themself and NEED a certain class/ build, to carry them.

I did spent hours, in total maybe weeks, helping friends, guildmates, friends of ppl I know and sometimes total strangers gearing up, running dungeons etc, at my own time. Forcing other ppl to run dungeons with strangers is a stupid idea. That is why RQ is such a desaster and by blocking private que you would lose all of the players, who are adult enough, to form their own decisions.

BTW, my CW was my main character for more then 3 years. Quite early in the game I did build characters from other classes and atm I do most of my runs with my GF or my DC. Not, bc I dont like my CW anymore, but bc 60-80% of the players want to run with a DPS class and atm you are wasting your time, if you build a group with 3 (pure) DPS players.

There might be a problem with class balance, but the fix here would be, guess what, balancing the classes, and not prohibiting private que. If ppl want to run an individual build and they lose buffs, debuffs, dps and surviveability, good for them. If other players dont know them and dont feel enclined, to waste their time by catering to their free spirit, by carrying them in a dungeon, good for them.

hustin1 · July 2018

Someone didn't read the entirety of my post. I lead my guild, and my guild is the helm of our alliance. We have GREAT people who are willing to help others any way they can. Not everyone, though, either has the high-end dungeons unlocked or has certain classes built up enough to be able to run them. It's the same story as everywhere else: a dearth of high-IL DCs and OP's.

Let's be honest: how many people use the public queue for dungeons from FBI and up? That's what I thought. So you're at the mercy of using the private queue system. Sometimes I do form my own groups, but since everyone is competing for the same scarce resources (DC and tank), we wind up spending vastly more time getting a group together than actually running dungeons. And I can't count the number of times I've had someone ask me to kick player XYZ because of their gear, even before they've had a chance to prove themselves. When I don't, guess who bugs out? You guessed it.

We indeed have a problem of cliques in the game.

auron · July 2018

honestly it really doesn't matter who i party with even if the person is running in the opposite direction i stay till the very end. way i see it is i joined and am commited to finish what i started only time i kick is if someone is disconnected.

honestly i don't like people who pick and chose .

pterias · July 2018

demonmonger said:
> @pterias said:

> Yeah, it's pretty bad. I've decided to not concern myself with it anymore.

>

> You basically have four options:

> 1. Play a several-thousand dollar "preferred" DPS class.

> 2. Play a cookie cutter support class/build.

> 3. Spend far more time begging than actually running, and be miserable.

> 4. Stop bothering with endgame content altogether.

>

> There are so many things that have gone into creating the current situation, I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm not even sure anymore if there's any way back.

Bonding..super buffs and powercreep... these caused most of our issues.

I never did get on the bonding bandwagon.. probably never will.

Content was created around these issues above... if you don't have them you struggle to even compete.

I really noticed it start in earnest during Mod 10. SVA and FBI were so hard, regular queue basically died. To run SVA, you had to beg for tanks and AC DCs for an hour, then spend 4 seconds filling up the DPS slots. Eventually people started doubling up on DCs for FBI and the rest is history. It's just been getting worse ever since.

The crazy 4-support meta, while 80% of people want to play DPS, is one of the worst problems. Even the tank-healer-3DPS party comp had far more people wanting those 3 DPS slots. Changing buffs to additive instead of multiplicative (and re-balancing group content) would help. I think reducing the demand for support stacking is pivotal, but there are so many other factors it feels kinda hopeless.

Personally, it would also be nice if they would add some new upper-mid level dungeons or normal versions of the top dungeons, something for the rest of us to do. We haven't seen a dungeon or trial like that in like 5 mods.

micky1p00 said:

pterias said:
Yeah, it's pretty bad. I've decided to not concern myself with it anymore.

You basically have four options:
1. Play a several-thousand dollar "preferred" DPS class.
2. Play a cookie cutter support class/build.
3. Spend far more time begging than actually running, and be miserable.
4. Stop bothering with endgame content altogether.

There are so many things that have gone into creating the current situation, I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm not even sure anymore if there's any way back.
And you know...

5. Join a guild.

(Sorry, I just had to poke it, it was just like this huge red bullseye I couldn't resist when I saw it )

I know you had to, I was counting the posts until you did.

And of course, that solves everything, just ask hustin. Oh, wait...

schietindebux · July 2018

auron#6793 said:
honestly it really doesn't matter who i party with even if the person is running in the opposite direction i stay till the very end. way i see it is i joined and am commited to finish what i started only time i kick is if someone is disconnected.

honestly i don't like people who pick and chose .

Either you got too much time or you take too much tranquilizer

Have fun in mSP with a bunch of campfireing newbies, switching in and out, you will stay there 4ever follwing your credo.

asterotg · July 2018

hustin1 said:
Someone didn't read the entirety of my post. I lead my guild, and my guild is the helm of our alliance. We have GREAT people who are willing to help others any way they can. Not everyone, though, either has the high-end dungeons unlocked or has certain classes built up enough to be able to run them. It's the same story as everywhere else: a dearth of high-IL DCs and OP's.

Let's be honest: how many people use the public queue for dungeons from FBI and up? That's what I thought. So you're at the mercy of using the private queue system. Sometimes I do form my own groups, but since everyone is competing for the same scarce resources (DC and tank), we wind up spending vastly more time getting a group together than actually running dungeons. And I can't count the number of times I've had someone ask me to kick player XYZ because of their gear, even before they've had a chance to prove themselves. When I don't, guess who bugs out? You guessed it.

We indeed have a problem of cliques in the game.

As I said, there are more dps players, then supporters, so they can pick and chose. If you have friends with lower geared chars, you should be honest about this fact, when looking for support, ideally from your friends list. While I play for some time and most of the ppl in my guild or from my FL are well geared and know how to play, your guild is not alone with this problem.

A friend of mine, a decent dps player, was in a smaller guild and they where constantly in need of DCs, OPs or GFs, to run TONG with. While I had no problem helping him out, together with one or another friend, I drew the line, when he asked for another helping hand, invited us, left the group and they filled it with 10.5-13k players from their guild. While it takes ages, to complete TONG with 3 geared players and 2 neewbies, it is possible. We did quit after 1 1/2 hours at the 2nd boss and I told my friend in no uncertain ways, that he would find a place on my ignore list, if he would ever pull anything like that again. He argued, that they all "needed" to run TONG and "needed" other player, to carry them. I told them, that they dont "need" to run TONG, they want to do it and while I am willing, to help them out and spent twice the time on a TONG run as a favour to him, I draw the line on him dumping the neewbies of his guild on me, even, when it was quite obvious, that they where, even with our help, not able to finish the run. Dont get me wrong, we tried. I even did get some weapon enchantments from my alts and loaned them to their guildmates, to better the odds.

Now put yourself into the shoes of a 17k support player. He is pestered with pms like "TONG?", "CoDG?" or "Up for MSP?" all day long, when he is online with this char. He might even have a BIS dps char, but for convenience he did roll this support character. He is bored and to lazy, to form a group and sees someone "ideally" in a 16k+ private channel writing "lf1m TONG 16k+ DO DC". He inspects the person asking for a group and he is a well geared supporter, too. Well, thats more then half of the group you really need for a smooth run and better, then an 11k dps looking for 17k support. You join the group and to your surprise, the other 3 players IL is 5k under your own. You think, well why should I run with a 11k dps, when I own a BIS dps char myself, but hey. You did not ask for the other players IL, you dont want to be rude and they might be able, to do it. After grinding your way to the 1st boss your group whipes, multiple times. The other DC (AC) does not use exaltation and has 20k less power, than your DC with his AC build, but you cant switch, bc he has no DO build. The OP never heared about the possibility of sharing his power etc. When you look at paingiver, your DO is 2nd. I am not joking, this is one of the LFG runs I had and one of the reasons I stopped running dungeons in random groups. This is not a singular experience, but an experience shared by many players I know.

If you want to carry someone in a dungeon and you need more players, be honest about it. TBH I do understand ppl joining a group via lfg, looking for a smooth run, if they leave, after they saw, that this is not a farm run, but a "carry me group".

muminekm · July 2018

It's not really NW problem. You will found the same problem in every MMO. Because there is always shortage of healers(buffers in our case) and tanks. People mostly seem to want to be that main dps, big cannon that obliterate everything. Who would want to be that poor, little buffer? So nobody ever stop that people who feel left out for making their own queue, looking for other group members etc. They lost 1h looking for DC/tank? So why they can't be that DC/tank? Everyone want to be main hero of their story and where is the love for sidekicks.

But in the end you need to realize it's mmo and you need to be team player. 5 pure dps is not going to cut in (even 5 TRs Tong party think it through and share responsibilities so everyone cover their asses). I personally know people who had dps main, made support chart because nobody wanted their main, and they actually realized they like supporting more.

To answer question from title post:

I challenge the devs: build a level-70 (non-BiS) HR, or a CW who isn't a MoF, or a SW who isn't a templock, and try to get in a group for ToNG or CoDG. Then try to STAY in the group after a party wipe or two.

Been here, done that. Where is the problem? Of course if you want to be less favoured class you can't really ask for meta team It's double sided exchange..you don't want to bring a lot on your side so you can't ask much in return.

It always boils down to community and not how the game works. I'm actually m asochist (why ma..soo..chi...st is profinity lol) and use private channels pretty much like random queue. I have luck to be DC and my partner is OP. So I just ask for 3 "dps or buff" and pick 3 fastest unique pms (so usually not two of the same classes). Often it's DC-OP-GWF-TR-SW or DC-OP-CW-CW-HR or.. . Yes I also get "kick x person, he is undergeared" or "kick x, we need another class instead". I laugh it off and then kick person who ask for it. And I always ask people to run what they fill comfortable with (so if you're CW just run whatever loadout you think is necesarry at time). And then we do dungeon (it's usually Tong) in decent time (20-25 min is be decent for me). NW is easy game. People ask for 2xDC-OP-another buff-super dps party but I'm not ever sure where it's needed. Most of the time I feel like my DC's buffs are required to cover other dps/players shortcoming than melting everything. If you ever play that 10 min Tong runs with everyone who have best gear and best skill you realize you don't really need meta teams and 4 buffer 1 dps set ups for anything in this game (unless you need that speed runs).

therealprotex · July 2018

demonmonger said:
> @pterias said:

> Yeah, it's pretty bad. I've decided to not concern myself with it anymore.

>

> You basically have four options:

> 1. Play a several-thousand dollar "preferred" DPS class.

> 2. Play a cookie cutter support class/build.

> 3. Spend far more time begging than actually running, and be miserable.

> 4. Stop bothering with endgame content altogether.

>

> There are so many things that have gone into creating the current situation, I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm not even sure anymore if there's any way back.

Bonding..super buffs and powercreep... these caused most of our issues.

I never did get on the bonding bandwagon.. probably never will.

Content was created around these issues above... if you don't have them you struggle to even compete.

I have to disagree. Take a BiS SpellStorm Thauma CW and try to find a random group for end content and you will still fail most of the time. The cause for the described problems is not bonding, not super buffs and not power creep.

The problem is not existing class balance.

eclipseblood · July 2018

Private queue is fine the way it is, it gives is the option of playing with our friends regardless of the regular requirements. That being said, its a social game as a dps that's can make the difference between struggling for grp and getting a random pm for tong or codg. I have no issues on my sw to get in grps when I do play it (used to main my sw until I started playing on my dc a few mods back), friends and guildmates are usually willing to help u when ur gearing. Even if u cant get them in ur guild or alliance u still have a friends list, start playing the social game instead of dungeon diving that will help u build groups in the long run.

mentinmindmaker · July 2018

The game does have a problem in that you need to build a group according to a very narrow meta to get best performance.

The solution however is not to tell people to not run the meta or force them to not run the meta.

The solution must be to tune classes so the meta concept becomes void.

shoziku222 · July 2018

hustin1 said:

I challenge the devs: build a level-70 (non-BiS) HR, or a CW who isn't a MoF, or a SW who isn't a templock, and try to get in a group for ToNG or CoDG. Then try to STAY in the group after a party wipe or two.

You're actually challenging the dev's to read all those acronyms you belched out. You'll have to speak clearly if you wish to be taken seriously.

chemjeff · July 2018

hustin1 said:
Let's be honest: how many people use the public queue for dungeons from FBI and up?

I do, all the time. Both on my GWF and on my DC. Just yesterday I random solo queued into the advanced queue with my DC, got MSP with a pretty good GWF and HR, a SW, and OP tank. For the SW and OP, it was their first time there. We wiped a couple of times on second boss and third boss, but we got through it. It took about an hour, which for the BIS crowd is "lol too slow" but I don't care. Admittedly it is harder to random solo queue on my GWF, but there have been times when I had to "tank" Drufi at the end of FBI because the rest of the team wiped. Which is fine, occasionally. Wouldn't want to do it every day, but it's fun once in a while.

hustin1 said:
We indeed have a problem of cliques in the game.

I very much agree. I blame the proliferation of all the private channels, frankly. They permit players to stay within their insular communities without having to deal with the "riff-raff" outside.

If we had Dungeon Delves hour now, with the private channels, it would not be like it was in the beginning. In the beginning, everyone was using LFG chat because that's all there was, so you had more people willing to invite total strangers into their party for dungeons before the hour was up, if for no other reason out of sheer desperation. People couldn't afford to stay within their cliques because there was only a limited amount of time available to start the dungeon, and if your friends didn't happen to be logged in at the time, you just had to go with whomever was available. Now, if we had Dungeon Delves, it would just be a mad flurry of activity in the private channels to find groups, and I think these are populated well enough that it wouldn't do very much to break down the cliquishness of these communities.

I really do believe that the high-end players should random solo queue into the harder dungeons just to see what things are like now before they start demanding "more and harder challenging content", which I'm sure is going to start any day now that Castle Ravenloft is open for many players and the BIS crowd will be bored with it soon enough. From my point of view, everything from FBI up is plenty hard for the average, typical team right now.

micky1p00 · July 2018

chemjeff said:

They permit players to stay within their insular communities without having to deal with the "riff-raff" outside.

100% correct, my guild/custom channel has everything from new players to Archery HRs and WK scoundrels or people who didn't survive a single push pull, that I wouldn't replace for the best players in the game. Because what matters is not gear, skill or game knowledge, but personality and communication.

I will not run with the "riff-raff", I'll rather be stuck with friends wiping and failing (like last cradle for example), than run with those, as described, people who kick after first wipe or if a person fall at push pull, pick specific classes when there is no actual need for that, minimal IL (usually higher than their own), or people who worry more about shorting the run by 30 seconds than being inclusive, or general obnoxious attitude, ah also hate people who stereotype, some will not throw racist comments or about LGBT or religions in RL, but somehow they think it's valid to stereotype / generalize negatively people in game, "nubs", "elitists", "BiS Crowd" (when Ironically they are more geared than most those they refer to).
So yeah, I will stay away in my insular community and not deal with that riff-raff, those rare encounters with those leave a bad taste for a long time..

chemjeff said:

If we had Dungeon Delves hour now, with the private channels, it would not be like it was in the beginning. In the beginning, everyone was using LFG chat because that's all there was, so you had more people willing to invite total strangers into their party for dungeons before the hour was up, if for no other reason out of sheer desperation.

What? At the beginning, mod0-2, people made the groups well ahead of time just to get what they wanted before DD hour, those that were left out, entire classes, shy people (that pubQ), new people, less geared, and people who didn't know how to jump the doors in SP, or lava dive in Karru, or campfire die, etc.. just quit the game, because queuing just didn't work and LFG was the concentration of the "riff-raff" I've described above. A good group could have done 6 dungeons in one DD hour, a less so will fail even one so how you think groups were formed....

chemjeff said:

People couldn't afford to stay within their cliques because there was only a limited amount of time available to start the dungeon, and if your friends didn't happen to be logged in at the time, you just had to go with whomever was available.

Sure we stayed, I've joined /legit at mod 2 and some change and never formed a group in lfg since (not that I did before, because gear-less TR can't join anything unless a RL friend with expiriance in MMOs on DC forms the party)
I'll rather not run at all, than join those described above.

chemjeff said:

I really do believe that the high-end players should random solo queue into the harder dungeons just to see what things are like now before they start demanding "more and harder challenging content",

Why?
If a soloQ groups have challenge in FBI and up, then they have content to do, they can pick doing eToS for the mindless grind or harder content in FBI and up for the less mindless and harder content.
It's the organized groups that lack the less mindless and harder content so why I need to know that soloQ struggling? What changes?

MMOs to many is about the social aspect. It's about playing with friends, it is not a valid request out of players to play solo to have content. If I wanted a solo game, I would play a solo game, there are plenty of those, with better story, graphics, etc..

chemjeff said:

which I'm sure is going to start any day now that Castle Ravenloft is open for many players and the BIS crowd will be bored with it soon enough. From my point of view, everything from FBI up is plenty hard for the average, typical team right now.

Hmm if the majority of the players (just hypothetical) are in cliques, custom channels, guilds, friends lists, private queues, and all those 'evils', wouldn't the average, typical team right now be what goes in those channels, etc.. and not what happens in soloQ?

hustin1 · July 2018

shoziku222 said:

hustin1 said:

I challenge the devs: build a level-70 (non-BiS) HR, or a CW who isn't a MoF, or a SW who isn't a templock, and try to get in a group for ToNG or CoDG. Then try to STAY in the group after a party wipe or two.
You're actually challenging the dev's to read all those acronyms you belched out. You'll have to speak clearly if you wish to be taken seriously.

LOL

You should see what it's like working in the defense industry. EVERYTHING has an acronym. You could work on the same project for a decade and still not know what every single one stands for. There are that many.

chivonica · July 2018

That queue is meant to be for the players to arrange themselves. The reason these things happen is not because of private queue.

What is the hardest content min iL listed by devs? 13k? What are the players forming their own groups generally LF to complete that content in decent time? ~15k? What is the highest iL you can achieve? 18k+?

The general majority will gravitate to a higher iL req for their group for potential smooth gameplay/experience. This is pretty straightforward and is way out of control imo but w/e and players have played and/or paid a lot to progress to those lvls.

Misguided or not iL/gear is the basic standard of judging/displaying any smidge of potential competence but the proof is in the pudding during runs for all to see. If you meet all the above reqs and perform well you may still get kicked if the group runs into trouble as you know.

Again this is not due to private queue but due to class balance/composition and what is deemed "best" for the group by the players. The random queue has limits in place, private queue allows you to bypass some. This is a good thing for the players, if anyone thinks otherwise go queue into advanced/expert with min iL/fixed comp random players of the same. After 1 week even one day the problems should be obvious.

Private queues are the way to go because random queues are a mess. I have played short time compared to some of many years but its already evident to me. I don't doubt that many exp. players have been saying this many times before but what we have is players going around random queue with private queue for many reasons.

The core problem(s) should be addressed first and I would argue in turn would fix many other resulting "problems". But is a massive task and unlikely to happen in any timely manner if at all at this stage imo.

chemjeff · July 2018

I think all players, but the high-end ones especially, should random solo queue from time to time, for the same reason that I think people in real life should visit other countries - to broaden their experiences and see what life is like from different perspectives.

Something needs to change regarding private queues

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