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Official Feedback Thread: Astral Diamonds

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  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    vordayn said:

    vordayn said:

    Forgive me for not reading through 16 pages. If what I say has already been said, again, I apologize.

    If you want to remove AD from the economy might I suggest adding Coalescent and Preservation wards to the Wondrous Bazaar for an equivalent price? Doing this would remove an enormous amount of AD from the economy and further increase a reason to convert Zen into AD which would drive the ZAX rate down drastically. I believe this would increase the value of AD while not reducing the value of Zen. Persons who wished to earn their wards in game could do so over a period of time, while those who wish to purchase wards instantly could do so with cash. If there is a flaw in my thought process feel free to point it out.

    I tried to think of a flaw, but could not. I have pondered this too, and my knee jerk reaction was, "but then people would not purchase these in the Zen store". But looking at it objectively, a major reason for people exchanging AD to Zen would be for Coal and Pres wards. I'm pretty sure Cryptic has the data on which items are most purchased, by which account, and whether that account paid Zen or exchanged AD for it.

    If purchasing Coal/Pres wards with AD via ZAX indeed accounts for a substantial amount of wards purchased, then placing it on the Wondrous Bazaar will have two-fold benefits: 1) Acting as an actual AD sink (the AD is removed from the game, not just exchanged hands), and 2) Reducing demand for Zen, (which theoretically should improve the ZAX rate).

    One major thing though: Will this lead to an increase or a decrease in profit for the company? Maybe, but uncertain to tell for sure. A lot of what we suppose might happen is determined by human motivation, and this is a very hard to predict. Will players spend less on the Zen store because of this change? Yes. But - this may only be from that Zen obtained from the ZAX, and not necessarily from Zen purchased, especially if AD will be harder to come by from Mod 14 onwards, and only as long as the ZAX does not drop!

    One way to evaluate for effect would be to introduce Coal and Pres wards on the Wondrous Bazaar for a limited time (must broadcast in advance!) to test it and to see whether it actually fulfils the needs currently stipulated by the devs, that is: 1) AD deflation 2) Improved ZAX rate 3) Improved value of AD.

    Addendum: No, this poses a problem. This would only work currently on the PC, where the ZAX is backlogged, and the rate at 1:500. On consoles this is different, and is currently not backlogged. If the ZAX rate were to drop, then purchasing Coal/Pres wards with AD converted to Zen from the ZS would be cheaper than purchasing from the WB, if the price of the wards remained constant in both shops; this would increase demand for Zen again! The only way it would make sense if the ZAX remained at a constant 1:500 (or if the items on the WB/ZS were pegged to each other based on the ZAX rate)! Considering the ZAX can be gamed by the AD/Zen rich, this could pose considerable problems to the less wealthy. For PC it still makes sense, but a trial period to see if deflation would occur would be necessary; it might be still useful as a temporary AD-sink. For platforms with ZAX below the 1:500 capped rate, and if the Coal/Pres wards are both set at an equivalent value of 1 Zen to 500 AD, then it may increase the ZAX to 1:500 which would be disastrous for them! If it is only done for the PC, then the consoles will complain. This would be a mess. In fact, anything with significant 'driving-value' that could be purchasable on both the ZS and WB could have this effect! :D
    I really think that they should treat pc as a different animal at times. there are some things that really should be case by case across the three platforms. this is one of them. offering them in both locations would work for both pc and console though. if they are just ridiculously expensive on console in wb we'd buy them via the zen market still and vs versa. on pc it would be a great ad sink.
    Yep, it could still be sold on both the ZS and WB if it were more expensive in the WB. But by how much?

    On PC: Coal wards are selling on the AH for 564k. The prices for C/P wards on the AH are dictated by the difficulty of obtaining Zen from ZAX, frequency of invoke coupons, Zen sales, item Zen cost and the players' perceived value of time.

    On Xbox currently (if the ZAX is around 1:408) I would hazard a guess that the current Coal ward selling price on the Xbox AH is between 390-410k?

    If a Coal ward were to be sold on the WB and ZS, the price would still be determined by the factors above. I'd buy it from the WB if it were less than the AH amount. If they set a Coal ward for 750k AD on the PC wondrous bazaar, this would be around 562.5k AD after VIP 12 discounts, still more attractive than the current AH prices. If they set it at a flat 700k AD, this will be 525k AD after VIP 12 discounts, and hence diminish speculatory buying and selling from the ZAX/AH.

    You are right though. The platforms are different beasts.
    Then, you also need to factor in:
    1. 15% off coupon for Zen store
    2. 25% off for WB from VIP
    3. WB sales once a while
    4. Zen store sales once a long while.
    Yeah, that all drives speculation. Damn.

    Sales generate spending though.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • vincentr6669vincentr6669 Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    I still think the excess of AD in the economy can be dealt with AD sinks instead of a cap, but i understand that making AD more valuable/rarer creates incentive to buy Zen to buy AD which helps Cryptic profit, i have no problem with that. Since the cap is a certainty then at least follow these suggestions:

    1)Weekly cap instead of daily cap: 1 million AD per account per week (that would be the equivalent of 142.8k per day)

    2)Keep the Bonus rAD from first Random Queue the way it is now because that creates incentives to play with alts which makes queues more dynamic (right now it takes less than 10 seconds to get a random dungeon or skirmish, i wonder how much time it will take if people stop playing alts)

    3)If you really want to change the Bonus rAD to make it per account instead character, then i suggest that each new RQ should give a much higher amount of AD to compensate this. Right now we get 26k Bonus rAD (5.6k from Epic Trial + 5.9k from Epic Dungeon + 7.9k from Dungeon + 6.6k from Skirmish) per character. With the new system we'll get 35k (8k leveling +12k intermediate + 15k advanced) per account. It's a 34.6% improvement for players that only farm AD with 1 character, but for those used to farm AD with 2 or more characters it is a decrease in the speed they reach the cap (because 26k multiplied by 2 or more characters is higher than 35k), making the game more time-consuming

    4)If the Bonus rAD from Random Queue become only once per account, make it also once per week to go with my suggestion of a weekly cap (multiply the bonuses by 7 of course, including the higher bonuses i suggested above on my number 3)

    5)Give for those who finish Expert Queue a decent amount of AD instead of RP
  • chestercatrat#6924 chestercatrat Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    Clearly there's a difference between ps4/Xbox and pc. PC is riddled with bots and you cannot control the Plague. Ps4 and Xbox are not. This "fix" is clearly meant to deal with PC problems and in turn will cause serious problems on the two platforms that do not have an issue. Is there a reason this can't be implemented on PC and not ps4 or Xbox? It solves no issue for us. I mean you gave us a game without foundry yet that POS system still exists on PC. If you're trying to come up with a way to make ad lwave the economy yes a limit should be imposed on how much can be refined. Scale it by how many level 70s you have and match it to the item levels you guys put on dungeons. If your toon isn't 70, no ad. Is 70 and gs 6000 x amount per day or week. That seems fair.

    Add more ad sinks. We know you guys have 0 desire to actually draw up new things. You're a reskin company at this point. Last major thing you did was dinosaurs and the 2 new mounts for mod 14. Rest of chult is a reskin of pirates stronghold and ravenloft looks like stronghold/lonely wood reskin. So why not actually make some transmute as sinks that at least 1/3rd of your player base wants?

    -player housing and add ons
    -companion designs, rework how they look
    -mount designs, ways to change their appearance
    -NEW armor transmutes, easy
    -NEW weapon transmutes, easy

    Why not make it so every time. You refine an enchantment, artifact, etc it costs ad same as upgrading companions. Heck make it same price.. Epic to legendary 1m ad, no tokens. Legendary to mythic 2m ad. 27 enchants on comp + toon, 4 artifacts, 8 pieces of gear that could all be upgradeable instead of purple to start. That's what, 40 pieces that would cost 1m to 2m to upgrade fully? You figure out how to charge people who are already in r14s etc.

    Make armor kits cost 500k instead of 100k to make.

    Do I like these sinks? F no. But it would literally eat as immediately. As I said, this is a PC problem not a console problem. It should be addressed in PC and not affect consoles. You're absolutely going to doom your game if you implement 100k account t wide per day. This is coming from a guy that hasn't needed Salavage for anything in 12 months.
  • chidionchidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    Ive played this game many years, on and off, this is the first time i leave because of how cryptic manages their audience. Im done emptying out my characters, congrats to my guildies who suddenly got an influx of rank 13 and unparallelled enchants. Ive asked cryptic to delete everything assosiated with my account. Im moving on to games where they got better ideas than nerfing, bottle-necking and impose limitations to solve self made issues. Where they take great love in developing the characters, races, skins, the game experience and fixes bugs as they appear, maybe even before they release an mod. The AD/RQ stunt was the last drop for me. the game is not fun anymore. i can not predict the value of my investments as every mod something new is rendered obsolete/worthless. i have 12 months of vip left, but ive asked cryptic to delete my account. I just dont care anymore.

    So instead of quitting the game, you decided to stop by the forum to inform everyone you're quitting the game...

    I do hope you aren't expecting a bon voyage party or a great deal of sympathy from your announcement about your quitting because I suspect you'll be disappointed.

    You claim you're donating rank 13 and unparalleled enchantments to your guild mates, that's awfully nice of you, however I suspect there are many more items like a stable of mounts, a bevy of companions and some very good gear and other items that's probably bound to your character so you probably won't be able to so graciously dispose of those items.

    Easy come, easy go?

    Anyone who has been playing Neverwinter "for years" has probably had ample opportunity to run multiple astral diamond generating events multiple times, very probably with multiple characters, so I kind of suspect at least some of the things you've accumulated over the years and are now passing on or throwing away came with little or no actual cost to you, other than the time you invested playing the game.

    I too have been playing Neverwinter for years and even though I have spent some actual currency, I figure many of the items I've received over those years along with of Cryptic and Neverwinter offering special events, coupons and discounts, adequately compensates me for my financial investments. Not to mention all of the opportunities a player has to earn AD's convert them to Zen through the exchange to "purchase" items, like 12 months worth of VIP - without having to spend any actual real world currency using sufficient patience, persistence and planning.

    Perhaps it's so easy for you to just walk away from all of the things you accumulated over the years because your actual financial "investment" is minimal, perhaps not, but after years of playing Neverwinter and your apparent ongoing dislike of what's happening in the game along with your lack of concern regarding your accumulated wealth and benefits which apparently includes walking away from 12 months of remaining VIP benefits, (if purchased with real world currency would cost more than $100 USD) - perhaps quitting is the best possible outcome for you... at least you won't be spending even more real world currency (or the equivalent time and effort) and decide to walk away after having an even bigger investment.

    Best of luck on your future endeavors.
    Post edited by chidion on
  • xblazex#7666 xblazex Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    More AD is created than is destroyed, everyone agrees on that point. On the surface it would seem natural to simply create more sinks to remove more AD, and we have started doing that and have more planned for future modules as well.

    We’ve been developing approaches to help address the problem and to get Astral Diamonds to a more stable place. M14 has the first significant steps toward that goal with additional changes coming in future modules.

    These two statements are encouraging to hear for those of us that don't have alt armies or have all day to grind and/or the desire to even do so depending on the player maybe because some actually want just play the content and have fun ??? but can't because of the absurd ad prices in the ah.

    As i stated in my own quote below I think this a good first step in leveling the playing field in regards to "time played per day" IMO 100 000 is very reasonable and the figures you posted seem to prove that.

    The fact that you stated you have even more changes planned for the next modules is very encouraging and shows you are wo your dedication to this path you have chosen.

    The sad part is even though that have warned the player base that this is not the only big change coming there will be people will still react with shock when the next module and changes come out as seen here.

    This is why there needs to be better generation limits in conjunction with AD sinks.


    That is also why I agree with the daily bonus being account bound as well it make sense for the goal you are trying to achieve


    In order to actually bring the absolutely absurd ah prices down you have to cut the avenues to generate more ad.

    ( not increase them as others have suggested by making less things account and character bound sellable and salvageable...i think some people are missing the whole point of this.... :/ )

    It will take time but I hope and I agree you really need to work on somehow vapourizing a very large portion of the total ad that exists before Supply/demand will have a chance of reducing the absurd amounts things are going for in the ah. When the community as a whole stops generating as much ad and there are other stuff that require ad the less people will be able to pay and as a result people will have to reduce prices in order for any given item to sell.

    I hope the other changes you have planned in future modules will address this Making some consumable "resource/ object /service" anything that cannot be looted /sold/ crafted and can only be bought with ad and does not exist in any form right now and people need to keep buying would help.

    One suggestion that does not involve moving stuff from the zen store to ad as other suggested is In professions you can "buy out" the cooldown timer mabey adding this feature to other places that have cooldown times would work in conjunction with methods above to facilitate the vaporization of some of the overabundance of total ad in the world.

    @noworries#8859 as others have mentioned and I know you probably can't go into how but have you been investigating how to combat people sidestepping the these limits with multi-accounting?

    In closing If you missed my ealier post it I just wanted to let you know not every player is holding a pitchfork with every change and nerf and do appreciate what you are trying to do which is trying to make a fair balanced game which is also profitable for you to produce.

    I don't normally post here but I wanted to Thank the dev's for this change.

    The only people who are upset it seems are the ones who "work" the system to get IMO an abnormal amount of ad -- which inflates the prices in the AH.

    100,000 ad a day is perfectly reasonable for an "average" player and will keep things balanced between those who do.
    not have an army of alts and those who do.

    1000000 alts ( yes i know that is an exaggeration) a day farming ad ) does nothing but harm the economy and make it harder for others who played the game normally ( in this case i mean normal as no 1000000 alts per day)

    Dev's I hope you will stand firm and again thank you for looking out for the normal average player.


    edit sp /formating/ clarity of thought


    edit sorrect sp

  • joccat#1817 joccat Member Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    the absurd ad prices in the ah.

    So you can't have fun in the game because of the absurd prices on the ah. Huh? Say what?

    I'm curious, can you give us some examples of items on the ah that have absurd prices? If you refer to mastercrafted items, I guess the amount of money those players have invested to be able to make those items means nothing right?

    Excuse me while I go lower my price for a Bronzewood Raid Ring down to, oh I don't know....how's 50,000ad only? That better or still too absurd?

    smh.

    To add - having alt armies for the sole purpose of running leveling dungeons over and over is stupid, boring, and a time killer. I agree. Which is why I made 15 million ad over last weekend crafting/selling wonderous grommets, cogs, etc. Ended up getting/opening 300+ of the packs that dropped a purple forgehammer, 2 mount packs and over 500+ pres wards. Cost = only the crafting mats from the temp vendors in the sh, all planned out in advance over 25 alts (my 'army'). Running dungeons over an over.....lol.....not a chance in hell. Average players with alt armies use them for other things besides running around leveling dungeons all day and night....

    If you think having a lot of alts is detrimental to the game then remove the ability to buy them now. No need to wait until mod 14 gets here. Do it today. Limit accounts to one of each class and be done with it. No more '50 toons per account' nonsense...

    Hint....not gonna happen. Why? $$$$$$...is why.

    Post edited by joccat#1817 on
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 565 Arc User
    The problem isn't that the Neverwinter economy is growing by 850M AD/day. As I pointed out earlier, that only amounts to ~55AD/player per day. The problem is that a really sizable portion of that economic growth is concentrated in a relatively small sector of the player base. The accumulation of AD in and of itself isn't a bad thing; the problem with it is that it tends to change player purchasing behavior. I know because it has changed my purchasing behavior.

    I have played the game for several years, and ever since VIP was introduced, I've made sure to buy a year's worth of VIP every year with cash purchased Zen. I figured that the cost of a year's worth of VIP during the semi annual sales was the equivalent to the price of a video game that I would purchase either online or in a store. I was happy to pay "the price of admission" so to speak because I understand that without regular cash infusions from the player base this game will fold. While AD will buy you just about anything in Neverwinter, it won't buy you a single thing in the real world.

    This is important to understand because if people are only purchasing Zen with AD via the Zax, then they aren't purchasing Zen with cash.

    And that is the boat I (and perhaps many others) now find myself in, much to the detriment of the game in general.

    I have 23 total character slots. I use some of them as mules as the storage space they provide is cheaper than purchasing more bank space or new bags; most, however, I use to test out new ideas for builds and so that I can better understand game mechanics by playing different classes and playstyles.

    I don't play a bunch of alts through a bunch of RQs because I think it is mind numbingly boring. In my mind, it turns a game into a job, but that is just my preference. The reality is that I mostly just play one toon at a time over an extended period of time. The proposed rAD refinement caps and RQ changes won't affect me one bit personally. Some people, however, really enjoy racking up as much rAD as they humanly can in a day, and I say, "More power to them." If it makes them happy, go for it.

    I don't Mastercraft so I don't make any AD from that. In fact, I only have one toon that has all the professions up to level 25, and that toon has unlocked, but hasn't completed Masterwork 1. My next highest profession level on any of my other alts is level 18 leadership on a toon that I am playing now.

    Because I enjoy testing out different builds and playstyles, I tend to like trying out different enchants (on live and not necessarily on preview) but that can be rather expensive if I'm not careful. Because of that, I've become pretty good at playing the AH. Playing market fluctuations, it is much easier, and *much* less time consuming to generate AD than by grinding rAD in low level dungeons. If you have enough AD, it is pretty easy to make several hundred thousand to a million or more AD per day, depending on how many bargains you can spot and afford. In fact, if I can't make at least 250K AD on a purchase, it really isn't worth my time as lower margins open the door to higher risk (and there are times where I've lost hundreds of thousands of AD on a sale).

    This is a problem because after a while, I have more AD than I really care to spend, so what am I to do? I convert that AD to Zen. This is a problem for a twofold reason: 1) If I am purchasing Zen with AD rather than cash, then there is no influx of *my* real world cash into the game ecosystem, and since Cryptic is a real world business, that doesn't help them out one bit, and 2) After a while, I have more Zen than there are things that I want to purchase in the Zen market so there is no reason for me to liquidate my surplus Zen, thus creating another bottleneck to my purchasing in game items with real money.

    In short, there just isn't a surplus of AD in the markets right now, there is also a surplus of Zen that needs to be absorbed before people start spending more money on the game.

    Right now, I'm sitting on more than 200K of Zen and have orders for another 20K in the Zax. To put it in perspective, if you convert that Zen to it's cash equivalent, that is over $2,000 (and I assure you that is a multiple of the amount of cash I've put into the system), or based on the current 500:1 exchange rate, over 100M AD. The problem is that there really isn't anything compelling to spend it all on. I mean, my current character that I am playing is lvl 70, and has leveled enough times that all of it's powers are at Rank 4. I'm in the process of grinding out the last few campaign boons; should have SKT and River District completed by Tuesday and am currently working on Chult and Omu. The problem is that the game content isn't a challenge; I used to run with full enchants, bonds and Unparalelled Weapon and Armor enchants, but it was too easy. I am now finishing that content without even so much as breaking a sweat without any bonding enchants and the cheapest weapon and armor enchants I can find on the AH (think less than 50K AD total).

    Look, I really want to spend my AD and Zen. I get it; it (my spending and other's spending) is needed to keep this game alive long term.

    Give me a reason to spend my Zen so that I have to buy more. Right now, the only thing I really need is VIP, and I have enough Zen to outright purchase 33 years worth of it at the semi annual sales. This game isn't going to last that long. I'm not going to buy keys, because I think the lockboxes are a sucker's bet. If I buy Coal and Preservation Wards, all I will do is flip them for a profit, further compounding the problem.

    I'm not a min/max type of player. I like to explore what toons can do and theorycraft, but most of all, I enjoy the role play aspect of the game. I mean, this is a game based on the D&D universe. I want more personal customization. Start putting cool stuff in the Zen store and people will start paying to access them. It really is that simple.

    In the meantime, I'm going to continue to play the game, and I will continue to make profits until I'm given a *real* reason to spend it on stuff that I really want.

    Decreasing the supply of AD in the ecosystem is only half your problem; you also need to absorb the excess Zen in the market that was purchased with AD as well. That excess "free" Zen is your real problem.

  • chidionchidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    Oh don't mistake my reply for actual concern or mental distress, I could personally care less if disgruntled players leave the game, hopefully there will be lots of new players without a soured attitude to take their place...

    I do however think there might have been a better more productive method of attempting to chastise Neverwinter developers for game changes than posting on a member's forum... but my point is since you've already made public your intent to abandon the game why should anyone, including the developers, care what one or even a dozen or more disgruntled player complain about?

    They by their own statement are already gone, so water under the bridge, spilled milk, and all that... although I have noticed you're still here.

    I would have thought if you really wanted to make an impression with the developers you might have started with something like:

    "I really like Neverwinter and plan on spending thousands of dollars in real world currency - but - I'd like to see a few changes made..."
    :p


    The fact remains I suspect there are numerous players with numerous characters who have in my opinion have taken advantage of the opportunities to accumulate in game wealth for a long time and have used that wealth to attempt to manipulate the Neverwinter economy - after obtaining need/want items for themselves of course.

    Now that the developers are attempting to put the brakes on their their easy money methods and stabilize the game economy, some of those players are ranting and raving about not being able to accumulate as much in game wealth as they were able to previously, sometimes with the accompanied threat to leave the game... the game that initially provided them with all the gear and other items they currently have.

    By my way of thinking the loss is yours my friend, not the game's not the developers and not other players... me, and I suspect probably a majority of others players, will be staying, playing and possibly even occasionally spending real world money when and if we think the money spent is a good investment.

  • tigerdrsk#8993 tigerdrsk Member Posts: 96 Arc User
    chidion said:

    Oh don't mistake my reply for actual concern or mental distress, I could personally care less if disgruntled players leave the game, hopefully there will be lots of new players without a soured attitude to take their place...

    I do however think there might have been a better more productive method of attempting to chastise Neverwinter developers for game changes than posting on a member's forum... but my point is since you've already made public your intent to abandon the game why should anyone, including the developers, care what one or even a dozen or more disgruntled player complain about?

    They by their own statement are already gone, so water under the bridge, spilled milk, and all that... although I have noticed you're still here.


    Hardly when a game has three platforms and is tapping at max the amount of a player base it can five years in. There's also far better choices that don't screw the base over with the quality of life imposes to cheat players because they think they are cheating their system. If a company has to go that far, the game should have been sub based instead of free to play. When you in fact also nickel and dime the vip players here to also carry people when some of us paid for more characters and enjoy to get them leveled just like mains and in turn sometimes become a main themself from enjoying it. I used to have 1 main, but now I just play which of the 50 I like to for enjoyment and mix it up. Others perhaps no different. I play on the PS4 but started beta pc.

    Everyone commenting doesn't want the ship to sink, they don't want their time and investment to capsize so they are warning of it. In some cases however, some simply comment to see what came after their venture off servers. It's a public forum so anyone with an account can comment can't they?

    Develops will care when especially the console market stops buying zen altogether if the progress is too severe. When you make ad, for some it helps and may make someone buy more zen simply to finish off progression because it's only a bit here or there because the farmed enough to cut the price down. Like for a mount, or set of wards or keys or even vip. Some of us though simply paid on the console marketplace of choice racial packs and other packs so we did spend money on the game. So how much are we supposed to keep spending for our enjoyment? Some play for free but also supply whales with means to get items from the AH to expedite their time. Without them nothing to do so will be there, or for far much higher. Free players pay with time, but everything always has a price. Nothing in neverwinter is totally free, except the tutorial. Even then you still have to atleast make it across the bridge.
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 565 Arc User
    rubytrue said:

    The problem isn't that the Neverwinter economy is growing by 850M AD/day. As I pointed out earlier, that only amounts to ~55AD/player per day. The problem is that a really sizable portion of that economic growth is concentrated in a relatively small sector of the player base. The accumulation of AD in and of itself isn't a bad thing; the problem with it is that it tends to change player purchasing behavior. I know because it has changed my purchasing behavior.

    I have played the game for several years, and ever since VIP was introduced, I've made sure to buy a year's worth of VIP every year with cash purchased Zen. I figured that the cost of a year's worth of VIP during the semi annual sales was the equivalent to the price of a video game that I would purchase either online or in a store. I was happy to pay "the price of admission" so to speak because I understand that without regular cash infusions from the player base this game will fold. While AD will buy you just about anything in Neverwinter, it won't buy you a single thing in the real world.

    This is important to understand because if people are only purchasing Zen with AD via the Zax, then they aren't purchasing Zen with cash.

    And that is the boat I (and perhaps many others) now find myself in, much to the detriment of the game in general.

    I have 23 total character slots. I use some of them as mules as the storage space they provide is cheaper than purchasing more bank space or new bags; most, however, I use to test out new ideas for builds and so that I can better understand game mechanics by playing different classes and playstyles.

    I don't play a bunch of alts through a bunch of RQs because I think it is mind numbingly boring. In my mind, it turns a game into a job, but that is just my preference. The reality is that I mostly just play one toon at a time over an extended period of time. The proposed rAD refinement caps and RQ changes won't affect me one bit personally. Some people, however, really enjoy racking up as much rAD as they humanly can in a day, and I say, "More power to them." If it makes them happy, go for it.

    I don't Mastercraft so I don't make any AD from that. In fact, I only have one toon that has all the professions up to level 25, and that toon has unlocked, but hasn't completed Masterwork 1. My next highest profession level on any of my other alts is level 18 leadership on a toon that I am playing now.

    Because I enjoy testing out different builds and playstyles, I tend to like trying out different enchants (on live and not necessarily on preview) but that can be rather expensive if I'm not careful. Because of that, I've become pretty good at playing the AH. Playing market fluctuations, it is much easier, and *much* less time consuming to generate AD than by grinding rAD in low level dungeons. If you have enough AD, it is pretty easy to make several hundred thousand to a million or more AD per day, depending on how many bargains you can spot and afford. In fact, if I can't make at least 250K AD on a purchase, it really isn't worth my time as lower margins open the door to higher risk (and there are times where I've lost hundreds of thousands of AD on a sale).

    This is a problem because after a while, I have more AD than I really care to spend, so what am I to do? I convert that AD to Zen. This is a problem for a twofold reason: 1) If I am purchasing Zen with AD rather than cash, then there is no influx of *my* real world cash into the game ecosystem, and since Cryptic is a real world business, that doesn't help them out one bit, and 2) After a while, I have more Zen than there are things that I want to purchase in the Zen market so there is no reason for me to liquidate my surplus Zen, thus creating another bottleneck to my purchasing in game items with real money.

    In short, there just isn't a surplus of AD in the markets right now, there is also a surplus of Zen that needs to be absorbed before people start spending more money on the game.

    Right now, I'm sitting on more than 200K of Zen and have orders for another 20K in the Zax. To put it in perspective, if you convert that Zen to it's cash equivalent, that is over $2,000 (and I assure you that is a multiple of the amount of cash I've put into the system), or based on the current 500:1 exchange rate, over 100M AD. The problem is that there really isn't anything compelling to spend it all on. I mean, my current character that I am playing is lvl 70, and has leveled enough times that all of it's powers are at Rank 4. I'm in the process of grinding out the last few campaign boons; should have SKT and River District completed by Tuesday and am currently working on Chult and Omu. The problem is that the game content isn't a challenge; I used to run with full enchants, bonds and Unparalelled Weapon and Armor enchants, but it was too easy. I am now finishing that content without even so much as breaking a sweat without any bonding enchants and the cheapest weapon and armor enchants I can find on the AH (think less than 50K AD total).

    Look, I really want to spend my AD and Zen. I get it; it (my spending and other's spending) is needed to keep this game alive long term.

    Give me a reason to spend my Zen so that I have to buy more. Right now, the only thing I really need is VIP, and I have enough Zen to outright purchase 33 years worth of it at the semi annual sales. This game isn't going to last that long. I'm not going to buy keys, because I think the lockboxes are a sucker's bet. If I buy Coal and Preservation Wards, all I will do is flip them for a profit, further compounding the problem.

    I'm not a min/max type of player. I like to explore what toons can do and theorycraft, but most of all, I enjoy the role play aspect of the game. I mean, this is a game based on the D&D universe. I want more personal customization. Start putting cool stuff in the Zen store and people will start paying to access them. It really is that simple.

    In the meantime, I'm going to continue to play the game, and I will continue to make profits until I'm given a *real* reason to spend it on stuff that I really want.

    Decreasing the supply of AD in the ecosystem is only half your problem; you also need to absorb the excess Zen in the market that was purchased with AD as well. That excess "free" Zen is your real problem.

    Maybe the best thing for the game is to figure out a way to get players like myself out of the regular Neverwinter economy altogether.

    I mean, I just looked at the Zen store, and with the amount of Zen I have saved up, I can literally purchase everything in the Zen store (non-redundant) during the semi annual sale, and I would still have enough Zen left over to exchange it for 35M AD in the Zax.

    That's broken.

    I know it, but I'm not going to change my behavior.

    The problem is I have hope.

    I have hope that something will pop up that is an absolute must have for me.

    What if I don't have enough Zen or AD for those things--whatever they are---what would I do then? I'm risk averse; that is why I keep trying to generate a profit that I, at this point in time, don't need.

    The funny thing is that I'm not a whale; I'm just a minnow in a sea of whales (there are Neverwinter billionaires out there), but even my level of economic participation isn't healthy for the game.

    One potential solution is to give players like me a mechanism to opt out of the economy. Why do we participate in the economy in the first place? To access "stuff," plain and simple.

    That is my primary motivation.

    Why not provide an option for Lifetime All Access, and then charge a yearly or monthly service fee that can only be paid in real money?

    You can easily sell the Lifetime All Access option for 100K Zen or $1,000-- no half price at the semi annual sales (I've heard plenty of stories of folks who've said they've spent thousands on this game) and then charge either $10/month or $100/year to maintain the Lifetime All Access status.

    By Lifetime All Access, I'm really talking about all access; give us a character slot for each class, unlimited access to whatever mounts, companions, weapons, enchants, artifacts, services, etc. that we want. It's like VIP on steroids. The only thing is that everything is account bound; it can't go back into the Neverwinter economy. We also wouldn't have access to AD or Zen since we wouldn't need it anymore.

    The reality is that for players like myself, for all intents and purposes, we already have the Lifetime All Access status since we can afford anything in the game. The problem is that we are ruining the economy. I get that, and I admit that--however, its the devs that put us in that position. We have to hedge against uncertainty that the devs seem to bring with every single new mod. A couple of mods ago, when they introduced the bonding changes and R13 &R14 enchants, everyone who was BiS with R12s and Transcendent enchants had to recalibrate how much it cost to make their character BiS again; under the new parameters, it was calculated to be around 40M AD (or ~80K Zen).

    What if you do something like that again? We have to protect ourselves and the time and monetary investments we've made in this game. For us, the Lifetime All Access option would be akin to obsolescence insurance.

    This would be a win-win for everyone: 1) The average player wins because we aren't skewing the economic system anymore; 2) Players like me win because we have obsolescence insurance; and 3) most importantly, Cryptic wins because you are now collecting real money from players like myself, and with a balanced economy, you are collecting more real money from the average player.



  • chidionchidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited May 2018

    chidion said:

    Oh don't mistake my reply for actual concern or mental distress, I could personally care less if disgruntled players leave the game, hopefully there will be lots of new players without a soured attitude to take their place...

    I do however think there might have been a better more productive method of attempting to chastise Neverwinter developers for game changes than posting on a member's forum... but my point is since you've already made public your intent to abandon the game why should anyone, including the developers, care what one or even a dozen or more disgruntled player complain about?

    They by their own statement are already gone, so water under the bridge, spilled milk, and all that... although I have noticed you're still here.


    Hardly when a game has three platforms and is tapping at max the amount of a player base it can five years in. There's also far better choices that don't screw the base over with the quality of life imposes to cheat players because they think they are cheating their system. If a company has to go that far, the game should have been sub based instead of free to play. When you in fact also nickel and dime the vip players here to also carry people when some of us paid for more characters and enjoy to get them leveled just like mains and in turn sometimes become a main themself from enjoying it. I used to have 1 main, but now I just play which of the 50 I like to for enjoyment and mix it up. Others perhaps no different. I play on the PS4 but started beta pc.

    Everyone commenting doesn't want the ship to sink, they don't want their time and investment to capsize so they are warning of it. In some cases however, some simply comment to see what came after their venture off servers. It's a public forum so anyone with an account can comment can't they?

    Develops will care when especially the console market stops buying zen altogether if the progress is too severe. When you make ad, for some it helps and may make someone buy more zen simply to finish off progression because it's only a bit here or there because the farmed enough to cut the price down. Like for a mount, or set of wards or keys or even vip. Some of us though simply paid on the console marketplace of choice racial packs and other packs so we did spend money on the game. So how much are we supposed to keep spending for our enjoyment? Some play for free but also supply whales with means to get items from the AH to expedite their time. Without them nothing to do so will be there, or for far much higher. Free players pay with time, but everything always has a price. Nothing in neverwinter is totally free, except the tutorial. Even then you still have to atleast make it across the bridge.
    I think your premise that everyone commenting doesn't want to see Neverwinter fail may be a bit myopic. Of course there are many players who have an interest in seeing the sustainability of the game as a recreational sink - but being honest I think we should also acknowledge there are some players who have discovered ways to take advantage or exploit certain features of the game and they don't want to see their access to easy in game wealth screwed with.

    People will play, or not play (pay or not pay) Neverwinter depending on their opinion of whether or not the content of the game interests them and whether or not their financial outlay is worth whatever it is they are wanting to acquire.

    I suspect many people over the years have stopped playing Neverwinter because for one reason or another they've lost interest in the game, but then simply by personal observation I also know there are a lot of new players who have started playing Neverwinter and with each one of those new players there is the potential for a new financial contributor and a potential new "whale" to replace departing "whales". Another personal observation of mine is most people are rarely as irreplaceable as they tend to think they are...

    By your own premise if a player really want something like keys, a mount or VIP they will be willing to invest in those things whether a player makes and converts enough AD to Zen and all they need is a Zen purchase simply to "finish off" that progression - or they flat out purchase sufficient Zen for that item, with AD's being no factor in their purchase. If someone wants something and they don't find the cost prohibitive to the extreme, they will probably make that purchase.

    For instance very early on I purchased a Guardian of Neverwinter pack, with a substantial discount (roughly the cost of two months play time for a certain other MMORPG) courtesy of Cryptic and Neverwinter. One of the best investments I've made in the game in my opinion.

    Considering the reoccurring costs to play some online MMORPG's can be as much as $15 a month or more and every player has the ability to play Neverwinter at no cost, (I don't actually consider invested free time as a cost)... yeah I do consider Neverwinter to be free to play and honestly a player can naturally progress their characters over months or years - or they can spend real world currency and progress their characters much more quickly, but it is always the player's choice. Nothing in Neverwinter that I am aware of, requires a player to pay for anything necessary to progress in the game, although a player may have to invest a lot more time, patience and persistence (again nothing I personally equate to actual "cost") to eventually accomplish their goal, but as I said, I can't think of a single instance where a player is required to actually spend money to play Neverwinter.

    I suppose we'll just have to write this off as a difference of opinion.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    vordayn said:


    But first get rid of the free salvage events like the one running RIGHT NOW on XB, in the middle of a debate into why there are too many ADs in the game...

    LOL! Is that really happening? What is going on with internal communications right now!? I am dumfounded. So contradiction. Much confusion.


    Yep.
    XBox One...
    Double Seals. Started on the very day they announced they would be slashing RAD refinement capacity for players with more than two toons.
    3rd of July we will get the 50% off Seal Purchases.

    You couldn't make it up.

    Left hand and right hand probably wouldn't know what they were doing if they were clapping.
  • oria1oria1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    chidion said:


    The fact remains I suspect there are numerous players with numerous characters who have in my opinion have taken advantage of the opportunities to accumulate in game wealth for a long time and have used that wealth to attempt to manipulate the Neverwinter economy - after obtaining need/want items for themselves of course.

    Now that the developers are attempting to put the brakes on their their easy money methods and stabilize the game economy, some of those players are ranting and raving about not being able to accumulate as much in game wealth as they were able to previously, sometimes with the accompanied threat to leave the game... the game that initially provided them with all the gear and other items they currently have.

    You do realize that what you just said, proves that the proposed changes have nothing to do with the actual problem the devs and you keep saying. If one buys items at 50% off, wait few days/weeks and then sell at full price, this has nothing to do with how much salvage one can do. Unless you can show us a correlation between a discount in game and the change/nerf on RQs giving rewards only to 1 char per account or the 100k AD limit.

    As I told you on my other answer to your previous comment, the proposed changes will not affect those who have or make AD, as they don't make it from salvage or rough AD. They make AD through lockbox opening and selling, through master crafting and by buying low /selling hi in AH as well as taking advantage the sales and events. All the above methods are perfectly legit methods endorsed by the game and its designers.

    So if the change doesn't affect much the above group of players, who does it affect then? (rhetorical question)

    Now here is another logical fallacy
    chidion said:


    there are numerous players with numerous characters who have in my opinion have taken advantage of the opportunities to accumulate in game wealth for a long time and have used that wealth to attempt to manipulate the Neverwinter economy

    Your assumption and generalization that the numerous players that took the opportunity to make AD (and why not) are also attempting to manipulate the market? First I cant think of a way one can manipulate the market with AD as to do that you need to have control of the supply of items that sell and not the AD.

    If I'm the only one who can make mastercraft rings then yes I can set the price wherever I feel its worth but that is not "manipulate the market" . It's a free market that If I'm the only one who sells I can set whatever price I want. It's called supply and demand. It's called monopoly but it's not manipulation. You can see that in some rare items from mod 0-5 that are used as transmutes. If there is only 1 item of course it will sell in the millions. Would you sell it for 10k? I doubt it.

    If on the other hand I have AD and lets say I buy all the rings to try to manipulate the market, then the mastercrafters will just make more rings and now due to an influx of rings the prices will drop. (rough example but you get the point). Yes that is technically a manipulation but to the benefit of the players...

    Now if mastercrafters talk to each other and try to rise the prices that yes can be called Manipulation BUT has nothing to do with the rewards of RQ will be granted to one char only or the 100k ad limit.

    Please lets focus on the proposed change in this thread and if you have some indications or evidence that "numerous people manipulating the market" you can make a post outside this thread and I'm sure you will get the appropriate answers. Unless one manipulates the market by accepting RQ rewards for the dungeons he/she did in more than one chars. We all know though that, this not the case.




  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User

    I still think the excess of AD in the economy can be dealt with AD sinks instead of a cap, but i understand that making AD more valuable/rarer creates incentive to buy Zen to buy AD which helps Cryptic profit, i have no problem with that.

    Ok, now I'm glad someone's said this, because I want to understand how that logic follows.
    Please, explain how someone who is not buying Zen now to trade at 500 AD per 1 Zen, is going to suddenly drop a wodge of cash on Zen because it now converts at 350.

    Why would they buy something that is suddenly more expensive if they weren't buying it at its cheapest possible price already?

    Cos, the way my head figures it, if anything they would be less inclined because their Zen will be less valuable on fixed price transactions such as those found in the Wondrous Bazaar.

    I'm not being funny or sarcastic, I just can't understand how lowering the relative value of Zen on the ZAX will encourage people to spend real world money to buy more of it than they are doing now.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    vordayn said:

    vordayn said:

    Forgive me for not reading through 16 pages. If what I say has already been said, again, I apologize.

    If you want to remove AD from the economy might I suggest adding Coalescent and Preservation wards to the Wondrous Bazaar for an equivalent price? Doing this would remove an enormous amount of AD from the economy and further increase a reason to convert Zen into AD which would drive the ZAX rate down drastically. I believe this would increase the value of AD while not reducing the value of Zen. Persons who wished to earn their wards in game could do so over a period of time, while those who wish to purchase wards instantly could do so with cash. If there is a flaw in my thought process feel free to point it out.

    I tried to think of a flaw, but could not. I have pondered this too, and my knee jerk reaction was, "but then people would not purchase these in the Zen store". But looking at it objectively, a major reason for people exchanging AD to Zen would be for Coal and Pres wards. I'm pretty sure Cryptic has the data on which items are most purchased, by which account, and whether that account paid Zen or exchanged AD for it.

    If purchasing Coal/Pres wards with AD via ZAX indeed accounts for a substantial amount of wards purchased, then placing it on the Wondrous Bazaar will have two-fold benefits: 1) Acting as an actual AD sink (the AD is removed from the game, not just exchanged hands), and 2) Reducing demand for Zen, (which theoretically should improve the ZAX rate).

    One major thing though: Will this lead to an increase or a decrease in profit for the company? Maybe, but uncertain to tell for sure. A lot of what we suppose might happen is determined by human motivation, and this is a very hard to predict. Will players spend less on the Zen store because of this change? Yes. But - this may only be from that Zen obtained from the ZAX, and not necessarily from Zen purchased, especially if AD will be harder to come by from Mod 14 onwards, and only as long as the ZAX does not drop!

    One way to evaluate for effect would be to introduce Coal and Pres wards on the Wondrous Bazaar for a limited time (must broadcast in advance!) to test it and to see whether it actually fulfils the needs currently stipulated by the devs, that is: 1) AD deflation 2) Improved ZAX rate 3) Improved value of AD.

    Addendum: No, this poses a problem. This would only work currently on the PC, where the ZAX is backlogged, and the rate at 1:500. On consoles this is different, and is currently not backlogged. If the ZAX rate were to drop, then purchasing Coal/Pres wards with AD converted to Zen from the ZS would be cheaper than purchasing from the WB, if the price of the wards remained constant in both shops; this would increase demand for Zen again! The only way it would make sense if the ZAX remained at a constant 1:500 (or if the items on the WB/ZS were pegged to each other based on the ZAX rate)! Considering the ZAX can be gamed by the AD/Zen rich, this could pose considerable problems to the less wealthy. For PC it still makes sense, but a trial period to see if deflation would occur would be necessary; it might be still useful as a temporary AD-sink. For platforms with ZAX below the 1:500 capped rate, and if the Coal/Pres wards are both set at an equivalent value of 1 Zen to 500 AD, then it may increase the ZAX to 1:500 which would be disastrous for them! If it is only done for the PC, then the consoles will complain. This would be a mess. In fact, anything with significant 'driving-value' that could be purchasable on both the ZS and WB could have this effect! :D
    I really think that they should treat pc as a different animal at times. there are some things that really should be case by case across the three platforms. this is one of them. offering them in both locations would work for both pc and console though. if they are just ridiculously expensive on console in wb we'd buy them via the zen market still and vs versa. on pc it would be a great ad sink.
    Yep, it could still be sold on both the ZS and WB if it were more expensive in the WB. But by how much?

    On PC: Coal wards are selling on the AH for 564k. The prices for C/P wards on the AH are dictated by the difficulty of obtaining Zen from ZAX, frequency of invoke coupons, Zen sales, item Zen cost and the players' perceived value of time.

    On Xbox currently (if the ZAX is around 1:408) I would hazard a guess that the current Coal ward selling price on the Xbox AH is between 390-410k?

    If a Coal ward were to be sold on the WB and ZS, the price would still be determined by the factors above. I'd buy it from the WB if it were less than the AH amount. If they set a Coal ward for 750k AD on the PC wondrous bazaar, this would be around 562.5k AD after VIP 12 discounts, still more attractive than the current AH prices. But if the price on the WB were still more expensive than that bought from the Zen store using the above methods, it will still drive desire for Zen via AD by speculators. To make speculation less attractive, the WB price must be less than the Zen store price (after discounts and including AH cuts), but then this would definitely shift buying towards the WB. Maybe speculation is the problem here.

    You are right though. The platforms are different beasts.
    they've been floating between 320 and 400. I've been trying to sell my five for four hundred for weeks. they just climbed up to 400 today. lol. they never go far above actual zen market price. people generally buy with the coupons. zax has been at 401 402 pretty steady for about a week and a half
  • chidionchidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    oria1 said:

    -snip-

    chidion said:


    there are numerous players with numerous characters who have in my opinion have taken advantage of the opportunities to accumulate in game wealth for a long time and have used that wealth to attempt to manipulate the Neverwinter economy

    Your assumption and generalization that the numerous players that took the opportunity to make AD (and why not) are also attempting to manipulate the market? First I cant think of a way one can manipulate the market with AD as to do that you need to have control of the supply of items that sell and not the AD.

    If I'm the only one who can make mastercraft rings then yes I can set the price wherever I feel its worth but that is not "manipulate the market" . It's a free market that If I'm the only one who sells I can set whatever price I want. It's called supply and demand. It's called monopoly but it's not manipulation. You can see that in some rare items from mod 0-5 that are used as transmutes. If there is only 1 item of course it will sell in the millions. Would you sell it for 10k? I doubt it.

    If on the other hand I have AD and lets say I buy all the rings to try to manipulate the market, then the mastercrafters will just make more rings and now due to an influx of rings the prices will drop. (rough example but you get the point). Yes that is technically a manipulation but to the benefit of the players...

    Now if mastercrafters talk to each other and try to rise the prices that yes can be called Manipulation BUT has nothing to do with the rewards of RQ will be granted to one char only or the 100k ad limit.

    Please lets focus on the proposed change in this thread and if you have some indications or evidence that "numerous people manipulating the market" you can make a post outside this thread and I'm sure you will get the appropriate answers. Unless one manipulates the market by accepting RQ rewards for the dungeons he/she did in more than one chars. We all know though that, this not the case.
    Check a few of the other posts, more than one player has threatened to leave the game or claim to have already left the game because they are no longer able to make astral diamonds in the quantity they were previously able to, so at least my impression is these changes could well (or have had an) effect some players who have or make astral diamonds.

    Can't think of any way an AD hoarder might be able to manipulate the market prices or how running Random Dungeons relates to the acquisition of Astral Diamonds? I think I can help out in that aspect.

    Random Queues generate AD's people with large qualities of AD's have the ability and I tend to believe often purchase items from the Auction House. When a person purchases something from the Auction house for a lower price and attempts to relist and sell that same item for a higher price, without question (at least in my mind) they are attempting to control at least the supply side, or manipulate market prices thus the game economy.

    Take for instance an infant gorilla I recently consigned on the Auction House, I listed that item for a low ball price, because I hoped someone who couldn't afford to gamble with the lockbox lottery would be able to buy use the little ape, (yes, despite your doubts I have and sometimes do post things for less than market price). Instead I get a notice that "someone" purchased that item and as it turns out I subsequently see that same "someone" posted not only one but several other infant gorillas for a price higher than the one I listed mine for, higher than the list price was only hours previously... That one I am positive about.

    Of course buying low and reselling high is completely legal and proper, but I find it difficult to believe anyone wouldn't tend to at least suspect doing something like that is not an attempt to manipulate or as I previously mentioned artificially inflate market prices.

    Yes as a professions crafter (or just a seller) you can list any item for any price you choose that is not manipulation. However if it appears someone is consistently purchasing those items and attempting to resell them for jacked up prices, that is what I consider attempting to manipulate the market... admittedly it is a HAMSTER shoot. Sometimes a person can make a substantial profit by using this tactic and sometimes a person loses but take a look at some of the items currently on the Auction house and the names of the sellers and ask your self which sounds more plausible - the seller actually expended the time and effort to farm and list 14 stacks of 99 level one enchantments - or more probably a player with lots of AD's probably bought several smaller stacks of level one enchantments for a lower price and is attempting to resell those now bundled to 99 enchantments for a profit?

    Lowering the future acquisition and refinement of astral diamonds probably won't effect those hoarders who already have massive quantities of AD's, but I tend to believe it will reduce the number of potential new hoarders who would be able to quickly and easily obtain massive quantities of AD's and that is how all of this relates to the topic of: (changes to the acquisition of) "Astral Diamonds".

    Of course this is just my expressed opinion so feel free to take it or leave it as it pleases you.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    If you look at any of the tutorials for this game written for novice players by experienced ones that sit on blogs and websites all over the place, one of the key bits of advice you will see in pretty much every single one is... "if you see a bargain on the AH, buy it and sell it on at a higher price."
    This is simply business 101.
    It is not, no way, an attempt to rig, fix, manipulate or otherwise influence the market as a whole, it is an attempt to make a profit on a given commodity.

    Yes people will often try to corner the market on a given commodity, it happens all the time with standard crafting consumables, but its not an attempt to influence the market, its an attempt to maximise profit, and often only serves to set a new plateau for other vendors to undercut.

    As long as people are happy to pay a given price for something, they will.
    If not, the stuff won't sell and that vendor has to either lower the price or wait till the market decides its worth what they are asking. Because if you post an item at a much higher price than you paid and no one is prepared to pay it, it won't be long before someone else posts one at a lower price.

    And if you post something at a drastically reduced price, don't be surprised if someone buys it and posts it at the current value, cos...of course that's what will happen.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,542 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    chidion said:

    oria1 said:

    -snip-

    chidion said:


    there are numerous players with numerous characters who have in my opinion have taken advantage of the opportunities to accumulate in game wealth for a long time and have used that wealth to attempt to manipulate the Neverwinter economy

    Your assumption and generalization that the numerous players that took the opportunity to make AD (and why not) are also attempting to manipulate the market? First I cant think of a way one can manipulate the market with AD as to do that you need to have control of the supply of items that sell and not the AD.

    If I'm the only one who can make mastercraft rings then yes I can set the price wherever I feel its worth but that is not "manipulate the market" . It's a free market that If I'm the only one who sells I can set whatever price I want. It's called supply and demand. It's called monopoly but it's not manipulation. You can see that in some rare items from mod 0-5 that are used as transmutes. If there is only 1 item of course it will sell in the millions. Would you sell it for 10k? I doubt it.

    If on the other hand I have AD and lets say I buy all the rings to try to manipulate the market, then the mastercrafters will just make more rings and now due to an influx of rings the prices will drop. (rough example but you get the point). Yes that is technically a manipulation but to the benefit of the players...

    Now if mastercrafters talk to each other and try to rise the prices that yes can be called Manipulation BUT has nothing to do with the rewards of RQ will be granted to one char only or the 100k ad limit.

    Please lets focus on the proposed change in this thread and if you have some indications or evidence that "numerous people manipulating the market" you can make a post outside this thread and I'm sure you will get the appropriate answers. Unless one manipulates the market by accepting RQ rewards for the dungeons he/she did in more than one chars. We all know though that, this not the case.
    Check a few of the other posts, more than one player has threatened to leave the game or claim to have already left the game because they are no longer able to make astral diamonds in the quantity they were previously able to, so at least my impression is these changes could well (or have had an) effect some players who have or make astral diamonds.

    Can't think of any way an AD hoarder might be able to manipulate the market prices or how running Random Dungeons relates to the acquisition of Astral Diamonds? I think I can help out in that aspect.

    Random Queues generate AD's people with large qualities of AD's have the ability and I tend to believe often purchase items from the Auction House. When a person purchases something from the Auction house for a lower price and attempts to relist and sell that same item for a higher price, without question (at least in my mind) they are attempting to control at least the supply side, or manipulate market prices thus the game economy.

    Take for instance an infant gorilla I recently consigned on the Auction House, I listed that item for a low ball price, because I hoped someone who couldn't afford to gamble with the lockbox lottery would be able to buy use the little ape, (yes, despite your doubts I have and sometimes do post things for less than market price). Instead I get a notice that "someone" purchased that item and as it turns out I subsequently see that same "someone" posted not only one but several other infant gorillas for a price higher than the one I listed mine for, higher than the list price was only hours previously... That one I am positive about.

    Of course buying low and reselling high is completely legal and proper, but I find it difficult to believe anyone wouldn't tend to at least suspect doing something like that is not an attempt to manipulate or as I previously mentioned artificially inflate market prices.

    Yes as a professions crafter (or just a seller) you can list any item for any price you choose that is not manipulation. However if it appears someone is consistently purchasing those items and attempting to resell them for jacked up prices, that is what I consider attempting to manipulate the market... admittedly it is a HAMSTER shoot. Sometimes a person can make a substantial profit by using this tactic and sometimes a person loses but take a look at some of the items currently on the Auction house and the names of the sellers and ask your self which sounds more plausible - the seller actually expended the time and effort to farm and list 14 stacks of 99 level one enchantments - or more probably a player with lots of AD's probably bought several smaller stacks of level one enchantments for a lower price and is attempting to resell those now bundled to 99 enchantments for a profit?

    Lowering the future acquisition and refinement of astral diamonds probably won't effect those hoarders who already have massive quantities of AD's, but I tend to believe it will reduce the number of potential new hoarders who would be able to quickly and easily obtain massive quantities of AD's and that is how all of this relates to the topic of: (changes to the acquisition of) "Astral Diamonds".

    Of course this is just my expressed opinion so feel free to take it or leave it as it pleases you.
    Your Gorilla example is not manipulation, but just a loss and a mistake on your part. For example, few weeks ago, I've checked fartouched residuum prices, one was listed 250k, the others 340k, the first thing I did was to buy and relist it.
    It doesn't mean I have the capability, will, intention or anything to manipulate the entire fartouched supply. I just saw a deal and acted upon it.
    Now, your intention maybe good but you are not helping anyone by trying to lower price, a free market is to some extent fair market. If a new player opens a daily ViP key and gets that Gorilla, they could have sold it higher, but your undercut didn't help them, instead it would have disappoint them (not in the specific case when someone relisted, but I think the idea is clear).

    In general, the market in NW can't be easily manipulated because most of the supply sources (except 1) are freely available. Someone wants to buy out all the UES and relist, sure, wait few days and everyone who can will run Tomb to also sell. The market will balance.

    The main thing that the supply is controlled is MW, and that was mainly not due to high entry investment, that can be payed by many if they see a profit. But because of a bug that didn't allow completion. Meaning that there were only handful of players with unlocked MW.
    If those went on a discord and limited supply artificially to bring the prices higher, that would have been manipulation.
    Also some extreme supply limits like legendary profession tools create advantage that can bring someone out of the market. But I think it's not that important to the discussion here or the global economy.
    Bottom line, as long as there is no excessive block on the supply chain, the market can't be just manipulated on the large scale, and every artificial demands increase (buyout) will be balanced in the long term by increase of supply.


    But the most important part, is that market manipulation is not relevant here at all. Nor to some extent accumulated wealth.
    The most important thing is how much (generated - sunk) (net income) of the whole economy.
    As long as it's very high there is hyper inflation, and the only thing that keeps AD from loosing all value is the ZAX cap.
  • chidionchidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    "Current value" changes, particularly if as you say anyone attempts to corner the market on any particular item by buying that item at a lower price (the previous "current value") and relists it for a higher price (the present "current value").

    As @oria1 mentioned although it does happen, it is rare for people to list many items for less than market or "current value"...

    But if I can list a couple of items at a higher price and that encourages others to list the same items at that higher price, then I can come in and list a half a dozen or more items at a slightly reduced price - not only do I recover the loss I took at listing the items at a higher price but I make a profit by being able to sell more items below the market price or "current value".

    I used to play in a guild with members who successfully did stuff like that all the time.

    As I already said there is nothing illegal or improper about anyone buying an item for a lower price and trying to sell that item for a higher price, but I still consider that behavior to be an attempt to influence and manipulate market prices and the more in game currency a player has, the easier it is for them to attempt to influence/manipulate current prices in the auction house...

    Which is one of the reasons why I personally agree with and support the proposed changes in Astral Diamond acquisition.

  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,542 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    chidion said:

    "Current value" changes, particularly if as you say anyone attempts to corner the market on any particular item by buying that item at a lower price (the previous "current value") and relists it for a higher price (the present "current value").

    As @oria1 mentioned although it does happen, it is rare for people to list many items for less than market or "current value"...

    But if I can list a couple of items at a higher price and that encourages others to list the same items at that higher price, then I can come in and list a half a dozen or more items at a slightly reduced price - not only do I recover the loss I took at listing the items at a higher price but I make a profit by being able to sell more items below the market price or "current value".

    I used to play in a guild with members who successfully did stuff like that all the time.

    As I already said there is nothing illegal or improper about anyone buying an item for a lower price and trying to sell that item for a higher price, but I still consider that behavior to be an attempt to influence and manipulate market prices and the more in game currency a player has, the easier it is for them to attempt to influence/manipulate current prices in the auction house...

    Which is one of the reasons why I personally agree with and support the proposed changes in Astral Diamond acquisition.

    Yet those are pennies in the big scheme of things. If someone made few hundred thousands or even millions it's not an issue. Because as I've said, there is a very limited time it can be done, after which the market will self correct.



    Anyone can bump it lower, higher, some people (I don't want to comment what I think of their wisdom in that regard) list hundreds of the same item at once, display their huge supply, and then surprised that they get undercut and the price drops immensely.
    But at the end the price will go to the supply and demand equilibrium and that one is controlled by RNG tables and currency value.

    The 100k Cap is somewhat self contradictory, on one hand it's purpose is to limit the printing of new AD, on the other hand if the amount of people who refine more than 100k are in the low single digits then what it helps? Unless those single digit create a lot of it.
    It perhaps will limit to some extent on average - or create a more stable average to work with for further changes, but by itself not so much.

    It looks like the 100k Cap is aimed at the high-end players who run end-game content and the salvage is only a by-product. When you do 100Tombs for UES, you don't try and count the salvage, it's important that it's there, and you do notice that a boss didn't drop even a peridot, but that's not your aim. Then suddenly you have 2mil in salvage.... and this is what will be limited going from RAD to AD, but mainly not the amount, but the rate.

    The more significant changes that somehow people ignore is the seals change. If the seals are capped and the RQ is account limited, we get a severe diminish on rAD creation, which will impact, IMO, much more than single digit number of players.

    Large amount of players, especially the less geared, and less end-game oriented are doing salvage runs and RQ, and those will be limited in rAD generation by both seals change and RQ change to about 40k-50k. They wont reach the 100k at all in the same time they do now. Or even at twice the time.
    So, IMO, this will be the larger impact, both on the economy and player base.


  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,542 Arc User


    -edit- Interestingly, while editting this on a previous posting. The post got deleted. This is an admission by the powers that be that I have a solution that would actually work.

    No, that the greatness of Vanilla forum spam detection algorithm, which is as smart as a brick. But I can sell you a tin foil hat at a discount.
  • oria1oria1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    chidion said:


    Check a few of the other posts, more than one player has threatened to leave the game or claim to have already left the game because they are no longer able to make astral diamonds in the quantity they were previously able to, so at least my impression is these changes could well (or have had an) effect some players who have or make astral diamonds.

    Of course a player that makes 80k ad now and in mod 14 only 20-30 k ad (not speaking about that person specifically) will get affected and annoyed. Somehow you think only the people that make millions will get affected but the truth is that the people who don't have millions will get affected more. As I told you, for the "rich players" the major AD income doesn't come from 3 man and you keep ignoring that. But if you have a proof, of a large group of people (and not 1 and 2 here and there) that makes AD in that way, I would gladly reconsider.
    chidion said:


    Random Queues generate AD's people with large qualities of AD's have the ability and I tend to believe often purchase items from the Auction House. When a person purchases something from the Auction house for a lower price and attempts to relist and sell that same item for a higher price, without question (at least in my mind) they are attempting to control at least the supply side, or manipulate market prices thus the game economy.

    Another logical fallacy
    "random Queues generate AD's" doesn't equate "people with large qualities of AD's" A lot of people do dungeons but not a lot of them have AD, but you imply the opposite, which is simply wrong. In the same way since we all do t9 we all have a lot of ultimates... you see the issue here right?

    After that everything else is moot point. If they don't have large quantities of AD they cant buy items to resell and so on.
    chidion said:


    Of course buying low and reselling high is completely legal and proper, but I find it difficult to believe anyone wouldn't tend to at least suspect doing something like that is not an attempt to manipulate or as I previously mentioned artificially inflate market prices.

    Playing with the AH has nothing to do with the AD reward per account issue at hand. Those people take the AD from someone else, losing 10% or more in the process and don't generate AD out of thin air. That is not control of market. They will sell a rare item at higher price, or capitalize on someones mistake or ignorance. They will not buy 70 primal rings to resell higher, as that would be a form of manipulation of a market. To manipulate the market (and not one item) you need to control the supply and not just have AD. If you cant understand that I cant help you more.
    chidion said:


    Take for instance an infant gorilla I recently consigned on the Auction House, I listed that item for a low ball price, because I hoped someone who couldn't afford to gamble with the lockbox lottery would be able to buy use the little ape, (yes, despite your doubts I have and sometimes do post things for less than market price). Instead I get a notice that "someone" purchased that item and as it turns out I subsequently see that same "someone" posted not only one but several other infant gorillas for a price higher than the one I listed mine for, higher than the list price was only hours previously... That one I am positive about.

    So If I post a r14 radiant for 500k, I assume if you buy it (unless you tell me that you won't) and sell it for 1.1m you manipulate the market? Nice..... No one forced you to sell it cheap, you could sell it at the same price as him and make more money. It was your gamble and loss... not his. Yet I ask again, what that has to do with the nerf and the focus of this thread? Unless you assume that, who ever did that to you and others like him... get their ad from 3 man dungeon and not by the higher price that they will sell the item that, you yourself admitted, posted for a low price.
    chidion said:


    Lowering the future acquisition and refinement of astral diamonds probably won't effect those hoarders who already have massive quantities of AD's, but I tend to believe it will reduce the number of potential new hoarders who would be able to quickly and easily obtain massive quantities of AD's and that is how all of this relates to the topic of: (changes to the acquisition of) "Astral Diamonds"

    Sadly it wont do that either. None of the "hoarders" started by doing 3 man or salvaging. 3 man wasn't even an option till mod 12b I think. The way those people start, is by "investing" a starring amount in real money, study the market and then create wealth by doing one of the methods I described in my previous post. 99.9% of them don't do 3 man dungeon, cause it makes them lose time and time = money for them.
    chidion said:


    of course this is just my expressed opinion so feel free to take it or leave it as it pleases you.

    I take it as such, but because its an opinion it doesn't make it right. Facts make something right and I hope you can see, I don't counter you with my opinions, but with facts and estimations from the game, that others can back them up too.

    Your entire line of comments in this thread is based on that simple assumption that who ever does 3 man, gains a vast amount of AD which is wrong or to say the least unsubstantiated and you describe a scenario that doesn't happen. Most people that do that, are just helping themselves go by and hardly make HUGE profits let alone manipulate markets.

    But I will give you this as food for thought.

    If so many people that farm dungeons and salvage vast amounts of AD as you claim, all try to "manipulate the market".. why are the prices going down? look at legendary box few months ago and now. Look at ultimate, look at rank 12, 13, 14 enchants, look at MC rings and look at RP values. All those and lots more are selling for cheaper.

    If this is manipulation... I will gladly accept being manipulated but this... has nothing to do granting rewards to 1 char per account, or 100k per account limit.




  • thegrimner#3435 thegrimner Member Posts: 66 Arc User



    Its my only way of letting the devs know what the changes mean for me,sorry that my leaving had so profound effect on your mind. im not expecting a bon voyage party from the players, this post was to the devs, i could not care less what you believe or not. and dont worry, i wont post again.


    Oh, do stick around. On the forums, I mean. Watching the increasingly more indefensible business practices from Cryptic along with the incredible contorcionisms with which they try to lie to our faces is two thirds fun, one third bittersweet, and far more engaging than the actual game as it stands.

    And, unlike the game, it's free.

    Congrats on breaking out.
  • chidionchidion Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    I'm obviously having a very difficult time getting my hear wrapped around all of this...

    I'm going to blame it on a bit of manditory sleep deprivation and a great deal of misinterpretation of what I thought Cryptic is trying to do to adjust the in game economy.

    I appreciate all of the feedback and after my test later today and a very long nap, I'll try to go back through everything sort it all out but for now instead of digging myself in any deeper I'll attempt to find something else to keep me awake before my EEG.
This discussion has been closed.