Low single digit percentage of players currently refine over 100k per day. This means at least 95% don't. But... what makes up that 95%?
Is it based on only L70s who play 6 days a week on average? Is it ALL players who have ever created a character, including those who bailed ten minutes into the tutorial? Somewhere in the middle? What? Vague stats based on unclear metrics never inspire confidence
I can tell you that over 90% of my guild currently DONT refine anywhere near 100k, in fact they refine zero, cos thats how many stopped playing since Random Queues were introduced.
Now, WHY are those 95%+ not refining 100k? Have they mainly fewer than 3 characters? I assume not, because if this quantitative tightening begins with a raise in capacity because people are hitting their 36/72 current cap... it will achieve the exact opposite of its desired effect. I.e MORE RAD refined daily. Raising the capacity for people who don't hit the current cap is disingenuous spin worthy of a cheap tabloid op ed.
What's the Mean of that five or smaller percent. Not a flat average, but the 5-10% in the middle. Because slashing the earning capacity of EVERY player who has purchased even ONE extra character slot... seems less like a refinement and more like abject panic.
Now, I'm looking at X Box cos thats what I play. According to what we've been told 250'000'000 more AD enters the economy than leaves on a daily basis. That is the daily growth. I'd be interested to know how much of that changes hands on the ZAX at 0% tax. That's not privileged information, by the way, I could get it by simply sitting and watching the ZAX for a day, but I'd rather not since I need to stockpile AD right now...
If that ZAX figure is negligible, one has to wonder what people are intending to do with all those AD. 1.75 BILLION per week.. I blow mine regularly on Shard Chests for my guild, and pretty things, with every good intention to save up for GR Legendary Pack, but something shiny always catches my eye. I refine about 25k per day per toon. I run 8. One of each class. I am not a lifeless greedy, entitled, rich zombie. I manage my time well, and have a routine. I keep track of stuff like seals and Ichor, and top up salvage when needed. In fact my routine often means I don't need to run all my weeklies to hit my 200k per day.
Basically, if 1.75 billion AD is piling up every week, there are two solutions.
1.) Take the easy option that will involve telling the highest earning 5% of your player base to effectively "Go HAMSTER yourselves" while doubling down on that "HAMSTER you" by telling those players that all your old capacity is being passed over to players who never bought extra toons, or players who aren't hitting their current cap. or 2.) Find better reasons for people to want to spend them, AND (from the ZAX pov) trade for them.
Given that in the past few years, dropping Leadership AD, lowering salvage values, replacing invoke RAD with a bonus system and so on, lowering the AD income rate has done NOTHING to reduce the economic impact or the relative value of AD. (Not unless the data claims since 2016 are false... which I'm sure is not the case.) its probably time to try something else.
The way to make AD more valuable and therefore more desirable on the ZAX (and thereby encourage cash rich/time poor players to buy Zen) is to find better outlets for it.
Run a competition for ideas, brainstorm in the office, but don't take the option that clearly hasn't worked every other time you tried it. Lowering the potential of every player who has ever bought extra characters will only result in a LOT of bad feeling and lost stakeholder goodwill. That's stuff that is really hard to get back, so if there's some sort of, "we'll get them back with M:TG... don't bank on it.
And even if you can't think of ways to encourage people to spend AD, don't make the new cap so punitively low.
So many people claiming it will be impossible to generate income in order to advance, but forgetting/ignoring that there are two sources of AD: 1. New AD through refining rAD 2. Finding/creating stuff desired by other players, and selling it to them, using the auction house or otherwise.
I think it will be good for the game if ppl will do more of 2. and less of 1.
I see a lot of comments on how this will affect the major AD earning folks. (HIgh levels) But not much about how it will affect new and lower level players.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the new AD amounts work out this way for a non Epic (Intermediate/Advanced/Expert) player...
I log in and run my character through a dungeon... I get 8000 AD with that character... Then I run a skirmish...I get 8000AD... For a total of 16K. Now I CAN continue and run as many dungeons/ skirmishes as I wish until I hit 100K, meaning 84 times!
Currently I have 5 active characters, meaning that if I play all of them through a dungeon and skirmish a day, I can potentially earn 90-100K a day, if I have that much time.
So effectively, after the change, if I ran the same number of dungeons and skirmishes (10), I will earn only 32K per day for the same amount of time.
So currently I can potentially earn $3 mil AD per month, if I never miss a day and can devote about 2 plus hours each day to JUST dungeons/skirmishes. VIP costs 500K AD to convert.
With the new system, I will be making only 960K per month for the same amount of time, which comes nowhere close to allowing me to earn my VIP by playing.
This change will have the worst (Not biggest, but worst) effect on non-elite/ super high level characters. Those folks are upset that they can only convert 100K. WE will likely never even SEE 100K for quite some time, as we will barely earn enough AD to pay for gear or some extra companions... maybe a couple of enchantments.
The change will be hard for those folks who are used to converting hundreds of thousands every day... It will be devastating to those of us who have to rely solely on Dungeon runs/ skirmishes for AD.
I don't normally post here but I wanted to Thank the dev's for this change.
The only people who are upset it seems are the ones who "work" the system to get IMO an abnormal amount of ad -- which inflates the prices in the AH.
100,000 ad a day is perfectly reasonable for an "average" player and will keep things balanced between those who do. not have an army of alts and those who do.
1000000 alts ( yes i know that is an exaggeration) a day farming ad ) does nothing but harm the economy and make it harder for others who played the game normally ( in this case i mean normal as no 1000000 alts per day)
Dev's I hope you will stand firm and again thank you for looking out for the normal average player.
> @novablastmkg said: > I don't normally post here but I wanted to that the deves for this change the only people who are upset it seems are the ones who " work" the system to get IMO an abnormal amount of ad -- which inflates the prices in the AH. > > 100,000 ad a day is perfectly reasonable for an "average" player 1000000 alts ( yes i know that is an exaggeration) a day farming ad ) does nothing but harm the economy and make it harder for others who played the game normally ( in this case i mean normal as no 1000000 alts per day) > > Dev's i hope you will stand firm and thank you for looking out for the normal average player.
So let’s say we work at Wall Mart.
I work 14 hours a day, and you work 3 hours a day because that is what we each can manage.
So many people claiming it will be impossible to generate income in order to advance, but forgetting/ignoring that there are two sources of AD: 1. New AD through refining rAD 2. Finding/creating stuff desired by other players, and selling it to them, using the auction house or otherwise.
I think it will be good for the game if ppl will do more of 2. and less of 1.
If we could sell thing that drop from dungeon chest that would be ok, but...we CANT because 90% of things are BtA so that's pretty stupid and about "creating" better not even talk about masterwork professions
I am partially talking about masterwork professions, but definitly not about the finished top tier product. Unlocking mastercrafts consumes sick amounts of guild marks, and some of the required ingrediants can be bought with marks and traded without having a masterwork profession unlocked yourself. Atm thats a lot more profitable than salvaging the gear available for guild marks.
I don't normally post here but I wanted to that the deves for this change the only people who are upset it seems are the ones who " work" the system to get IMO an abnormal amount of ad -- which inflates the prices in the AH.
100,000 ad a day is perfectly reasonable for an "average" player 1000000 alts ( yes i know that is an exaggeration) a day farming ad ) does nothing but harm the economy and make it harder for others who played the game normally ( in this case i mean normal as no 1000000 alts per day)
Dev's i hope you will stand firm and thank you for looking out for the normal average player.
Since when does 5=1000000? I like to think that I AM an average player. Maybe less than average, as I have never actually been able to put in the time needed to max out what I could potentially earn. truth be told, I have only been able to earn enough AD to buy my VIP twice. For the most part, I'm only able to earn enough to keep my character totals around 100K AD or so on a good day (Not what I earn, what they have as a running total.) On average I'm lucky to run two characters through a dungeon and skirmish on any given day.
I would actually prefer not to have to run dungeons to get AD. I would much prefer to have AD become part of mission rewards, but that has never been the case. I don't farm. I just try to make enought to get along, and even though I've played for years I have never earned enough to buy legendary gear or mounts.
In MY mind, the average player, especially before 70, will get all their AD from running a dungeon/ skirmish. A lot of folks actually play multiple characters to enjoy them. 32K a day for an account won't allow these players to afford very much, expecially if ti has to be split among 2-3 characters. Heck, a single Preservation Ward costs 5k plus on the AH.
I am all for the idea of controlling massive AD abuse, but some 'average players' have only one source of AD, and reducing it to less than the current amount that we can earn is going to hurt. And that IS playing normally.
Over the last 2 years on PC, the net amount of refined AD in the game (all characters of all players) has increased 75%. The overall AD in the game has been increasing at a good pace since the game launched, and this is true of all platforms. Some transmute and other sinks added aren't going to be able to curb that alone. I won't go into too much detail on the numbers, but on average players as a whole, just on PC, are generating 1 billion brand new refined AD every 3 days. Each console on average is 4 days to generate 1 billion AD. That number already factors in all of the AD spent during that time as well. This is why there needs to be better generation limits in conjunction with AD sinks.
We did pull data on how much of our player base earns over 100k RAD on any given day before implementing this change, and that percentage is lower single digits. That number goes even lower when looking at how many accounts earn over 100k RAD every single day. A player can always log in on days they aren't grinding out AD to refine extra RAD on their characters.
So from the above we can draw some conclusions.
If the "percentage that is lower single digits" (shall we say 3%) makes more than 100k that means the change will affect that 3% only. Which also means that 97% will not be affected by the change.
Since your change in rough AD is targeting to reduce the "generating 1 billion brand new refined AD every 3 days" amount and the other 97% of the player base will not be affected in anyway and the AD generation from them will continue undisturbed, that also means that the "percentage that is lower single digits" generates the larger portion of those "1 billion brand new refined AD every 3 days"
So, and just to see that I get ti right, The 3% of players, that generates more than 100k per day, is responsible for the situation we have now and help into generating a big portion, if not the larger part, of the 1 billion AD per 3 days, because as per your data, the other 97% since it wont be affected it wont change and will keep generating the same amount of AD if not more.
I hope you see the logical fallacy in those statements above.
PS Even if that was happening (which I doubt) we can easily speculate that, to do mass farm you need at BEST 20m per char (1X 3 man about 7-9m and a skimrish another 10m) which would take 17 hours at least, to 20 hours NON STOP farming per 24 hour day every day. Isn't it simpler to see who is logged 17-20 hours everyday, investigate and act? Cause I'm sure its not human... I think we all know the answer though.
Don't get me wrong, some of the changes like leavers penalty and the right scaling %, are a very good steps, but its not enough to have good intentions but to also have the right implementation when ti comes to AD.
You are wrong about one thing. The 97% will not "not be affected in any way". Those players will see, between the cap increase ant the boost in rAD rewards, a positive effect.
I just want everyone to know that I'm willing to take a hit for the team. If the Devs need a good AD sink, I'm willing to take 20-30% of everyone's earnings on a daily basis - it'll be tough spending all that... but I'm willing to do it just to help everyone out.
I see a lot of comments on how this will affect the major AD earning folks. (HIgh levels) But not much about how it will affect new and lower level players.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the new AD amounts work out this way for a non Epic (Intermediate/Advanced/Expert) player...
I log in and run my character through a dungeon... I get 8000 AD with that character... Then I run a skirmish...I get 8000AD... For a total of 16K. Now I CAN continue and run as many dungeons/ skirmishes as I wish until I hit 100K, meaning 84 times!
Currently I have 5 active characters, meaning that if I play all of them through a dungeon and skirmish a day, I can potentially earn 90-100K a day, if I have that much time.
So effectively, after the change, if I ran the same number of dungeons and skirmishes (10), I will earn only 32K per day for the same amount of time.
So currently I can potentially earn $3 mil AD per month, if I never miss a day and can devote about 2 plus hours each day to JUST dungeons/skirmishes. VIP costs 500K AD to convert.
With the new system, I will be making only 960K per month for the same amount of time, which comes nowhere close to allowing me to earn my VIP by playing.
This change will have the worst (Not biggest, but worst) effect on non-elite/ super high level characters. Those folks are upset that they can only convert 100K. WE will likely never even SEE 100K for quite some time, as we will barely earn enough AD to pay for gear or some extra companions... maybe a couple of enchantments.
The change will be hard for those folks who are used to converting hundreds of thousands every day... It will be devastating to those of us who have to rely solely on Dungeon runs/ skirmishes for AD.
the only solution that is possible is that those who produce the AD withdraw from the game and the same game I have to create this AD to meet the needs of other players. In short a bad economic decision (they look like a third world country)
Agreed. One positive thing now with NW in these changes is that if anyone wants their IRL to feel financially abundant come and play here for the abject contrast!
I've read some of the replies here and I see one major issue.
Most seem to not address the fact that first run bonuses are now account gated.
I'm ignoring the issue of account capping the amount of ad you can refine, but the second change effectively kills any use for alts except for support/dps variety. I'm left with running the daily randoms on my main only and then what? I don't see anyone bothering with the random queue for the pitiful repeat ad bonus.
And at this point I'll need to either run dungeons for salvage in which case I'll queue specifically for those I know are fast or I'm done for the day. And then the 100k cap is unnecessary. I though you made added the random queues because you wanted people to run a variety of content and not just non stop etos. Well congratulations, with this change I'll go back to running etos only and those of us who can run the end game content will run only that. And again, while doing this why should I bother with my alts if they are less well geared? The only use to the is invoking with the hope of one day getting a coal ward.
You want to cap the ad? Alright, though I think there are better options it's not that big of a deal. But the second change is really making me consider my future in the game. It seem like in an attempt to entice more people to spend their money on ZEN with better options in the store, you've decided to do so by making ad gain frustrating in any other way.
So many people claiming it will be impossible to generate income in order to advance, but forgetting/ignoring that there are two sources of AD: 1. New AD through refining rAD 2. Finding/creating stuff desired by other players, and selling it to them, using the auction house or otherwise.
I think it will be good for the game if ppl will do more of 2. and less of 1.
The only thing people truly want in this game are Coal and Pres Wards, Keys, Upgrade requirements from the Baazar, Mounts, Companions, Bags and Banks space. Nothing else has any value. Players can't make those, but they are ESSENTIAL to playing this game. The prices of these items are not going down. The Drop Rate for these items are not being raised. The Demand is not only the same, it's higher than its ever been, that's why people are refining so much. The supply is choked. Most smart people save up for the event weekends to purchase these items to later sell on the AH for profit.
If these Devs truly cared about the AD vaule, they could end this all in a few weeks. Increase drops rates on all valuabe drops, like Ulitmates. Include Gem Drops up to R12 istead of R9. Sell Orange Mounts on the Zen Store. Cut all Bazaar prices and upgrade Runestone requirements by half. That would end it quickly.
We only grind because we are chasing the Item Level and specific items to be proficent in the New Content. If this change won't effect you, you have either already attained IL 16K+, or you are not chasing it. If you are NOT chasing IL 16K+, you're just playing for "fun and chats" or whatever, you won't understand or care, because for whatever reason, you are not trying to be your best in this game.
But for those of us constantly chasing the upper echelon of item Level and specific gear, who haven't reached that level yet, this is devastating. It drains any hope we once had of reaching our goals. It says the Devs don't want us to reach them. It really says we were stupid to ever play t his game andf devote such enourmous time, money and any combination of the two to this game who doesn't want us and continues to do everything it can get away with to attack us directly, preventing us from reaching our goal.
You want to cut our wages but not our rent and utilities, fine. But don't lie to us and say its for our own benefit. I believe your statistical numbers are skewed. Perhaps only 3-5% of players refine over 100K a day because only 8% of your total player source numbers actually play the game with any reasonable sense of regularity. Perhaps this 3-5% turns out to be 50,000 acutal players, and the other 95-97% represent any Character that was EVER created in this game since Beta. Who knows? But you are wrong. Wrong in this decision, wrong in blaming those who put in hours of grinding to TRY and succeed at your game without spending thousands of doallars, and offensivly wrong in telling us this poison you are shoving down our throats is cake and ice cream. It's poison. And if everyone takes a bite, it will kill this game.
Well looking at all the comments and tracking back to the last time a dev posted tells me not one person who has posted including myself has come up with any good solutions. Because they do read these things. No response.
I say screw it. Their minds are set. All we are at this point is drama filled comedic entertainment for them. We bicker whine and moan and talk as if we know something they don't (maybe we do). In the end they will do what they want just like the bondings and as they said we will cry but will stick around. It's true. I expressed my hate and threatened to leave. I have invested probably $4,000 in this game. Like an iPhone user I am in too deep to leave. They know that. That's why it doesn't matter.
I will keep playing. I will hate these types of changes. In the end through all the hell we are put through it is still a good game at its core. It's like loving your wife but hating the inlaws.
I'm done wasting my time with this. When they ask for help for the bugfixes I'll come back. Clearly they were not looking for alternatives only to be assured of their decision and to laugh at our misery.
You are wrong about one thing. The 97% will not "not be affected in any way". Those players will see, between the cap increase ant the boost in rAD rewards, a positive effect.
There is no "cap increase", only a Cap Restriction. Since there was no cap restriction PER ACCOUNT before this .
Why not go the way of the most successful game in history--gta5, and allow everything to be bought in the zen store. ...make gear, EVERYTHING!, available for purchase yet allow the option for those that enjoy the current NW ...way; to do so.
Most seem to not address the fact that first run bonuses are now account gated....You want to cap the ad? Alright, though I think there are better options it's not that big of a deal. But the second change is really making me consider my future in the game. It seem like in an attempt to entice more people to spend their money on ZEN with better options in the store, you've decided to do so by making ad gain frustrating in any other way.
I tend to think that's the bigger issue too 'cause even a botter running 6 runs an hour every hour will only barely be scratching that 100K cap.
The thing that's hard for me to wrap my head around though, yet it's an essential point - is that with these changes, 8,000 RAD will be worth a lot more than it is right now... or at least, that's the hope.
Anybody have an idea of how much of the current AD it would take to be equivalent to 8,000 future AD?
So many people claiming it will be impossible to generate income in order to advance, but forgetting/ignoring that there are two sources of AD: 1. New AD through refining rAD 2. Finding/creating stuff desired by other players, and selling it to them, using the auction house or otherwise.
I think it will be good for the game if ppl will do more of 2. and less of 1.
But for those of us constantly chasing the upper echelon of item Level and specific gear, who haven't reached that level yet, this is devastating. It drains any hope we once had of reaching our goals. It says the Devs don't want us to reach them. It really says we were stupid to ever play t his game andf devote such enourmous time, money and any combination of the two to this game who doesn't want us and continues to do everything it can get away with to attack us directly, preventing us from reaching our goal.
You want to cut our wages but not our rent and utilities, fine. But don't lie to us and say its for our own benefit. I believe your statistical numbers are skewed. Perhaps only 3-5% of players refine over 100K a day because only 8% of your total player source numbers actually play the game with any reasonable sense of regularity. Perhaps this 3-5% turns out to be 50,000 acutal players, and the other 95-97% represent any Character that was EVER created in this game since Beta. Who knows? But you are wrong. Wrong in this decision, wrong in blaming those who put in hours of grinding to TRY and succeed at your game without spending thousands of doallars, and offensivly wrong in telling us this poison you are shoving down our throats is cake and ice cream. It's poison. And if everyone takes a bite, it will kill this game.
This announcement re mod 14 ad changes is the single-most clearest message about the intention and nature of the dev visionaries of this game as you well stated above, especially when the game has far more than just begun and now, many many of us clearly see it. Good luck with the road fwd
So many people claiming it will be impossible to generate income in order to advance, but forgetting/ignoring that there are two sources of AD: 1. New AD through refining rAD 2. Finding/creating stuff desired by other players, and selling it to them, using the auction house or otherwise.
I think it will be good for the game if ppl will do more of 2. and less of 1.
It drains any hope we once had of reaching our goals. It says the Devs don't want us to reach them. It really says we were stupid to ever play this game and devote such enourmous time, money and any combination of the two to this game who doesn't want us and continues to do everything it can get away with to attack us directly, preventing us from reaching our goal.
That's exactly what this will do, it most definately is pure poison and the message is clear about dev intentions.
I'm OK with these changes... i have 8 Characters and i can make 180K AD/day - 250K AD/day... it doesn't bothers me to get less ad per day if these changes will contribute to have a better Economic System in the long run... btw remember that these changes won't be here FOREVER.
A few days ago i was thinking to leave the game for awhile because i was feeling the need (better said to be forced) to play RQ to get AD, these runs full of bots weren't Fun at all, i don't like the idea of being wasting my time doing the same thing over and over... the game feels like a job and not as a game anymore. Now with the upcoming changes + New Module Stuff i'll stay and see how everything evolves...
What i want is to efficiently spend my Playtime with guildies and friends, enjoy the game and get some results at the end... not this crazy race called: alts farm ad HAMSTER tbh
For those people who ask: and now what am i supposed to do now with my alts? Dread Ring Weeklies Treasures Hunts Knowledge is your best Weapon! hey! there are lot of stuff to do with your alts you just have to think a little, it's not hard you know!
There are a lot of good ideas here in this forum to sink a lot of AD per day! DEVS just have to actually read... and perhaps ask the community what we think about it! Feedback it's the best way to solve a problem after all!
Here are some suggestions:
1._ Special Vendor for Transmute only> 45k ad/set + 5k ad/transm= 50k ad 2._ Remove Preservation Wards from Zen Store and put that item in the WB> 1 Stack of PW x99pw= 400kAD (4 days worth/rad) 3._ Include a Legendary Mount in WB= 3.000.000 AD / i'll buy this thing only to get the 140% buff and use my guild boon on something else (more XP, more Gold, less time revive sickness...) 4._ Unbind Scrolls> 50k ad/scroll. 5._ Create a new cube, let's call it a "Gold Cube"=50k ad> with this thing you can get 500 stats from your weapon set. 6._ New reinforcements kits for gear (armor, ring, cloak, waist, shirt, pants...) 100k ad each one! 7._ Improve Masterworks, this system has the best "sink" ad ever in this game, you just have to tune up! 8._ Implement a 3rd Chest in all dungeons: at the end of the Dungeon/Skirmish/Raid you can collect 3 Chest> you can open 1 chest with your daily dungeon key or vip keys, the second one with keys created with currency from determined campaign and opened the last one with "Epic"-"legendary" Keys from WB (high drop rate of getting ues+something else) 9._ Special Vendor selling Guild Boons for lonely wolves 1.000.000 ad/boon only 1 boon per category, maximum to 4 boons! 10._ Create an event like NCL with a fee entry of 100.000 k ad> where you can win legendary-epic mounts, a lot of RP plus New and Unique PvP Gear! 11._ Special Vendor selling Legendary Insignias> 500k ad each one 12._ +++++ there are good ideas here! You only need to schedule 30mins of your time/day reading Post that has been marked for Moderators or something like that!
GET KNOWLEDGE. PLAY SMART. ENJOY AND MOVE FORWARDS
You want to cut our wages but not our rent and utilities, fine. But don't lie to us and say its for our own benefit.
this is what still amazes me and i don't even play the damn thing anymore.
It would be amusing if it wasn't so preposterous. Back when the random queues were introduced, the justification was not only that it would improve dungeon population, but also that it would facilitate AD generation and would result in a net positive. Thomas Foss said as much in that trainwreck of a state of the game where he admitted the RQ's needed work (which is to say, everything the playerbase warned against effectively came to pass), but on one account they had gotten it right, which was players were making more AD.
So, if we take all this at their word, on one module they (supposedly) increase AD generation on purpose only to have it curtailed on the very next mod? Six months ago they were justifying that unpopular change with an increase in aD generation, now, on the very next patch that same increase suddenly has to go, but it'll be great for us, you'll see. it's like they can't even be consistent with their lying at this point; and by now, assuming they're bold faced liars is the most charitable assumption when compared to the alternative of thinking them to be utterly inept.
This when they simply go along with pretending the impact is positive, like in the key situation that would totally be offset by better loot drops which then were visibily shadow nerfed to pre key change levels.
It's a standard M.O. for cryptic at this point. They break the game beyond the point of no return, be it with sales that are so "telegraphed" that they actively encourage hoarding where the grind gives us very little in terms of other choices, be it with the totally out of control power creep. In most of these cases, their approach is to consistently and constantly shatter player choice and give them less.
Over the last 2 years on PC, the net amount of refined AD in the game (all characters of all players) has increased 75%. The overall AD in the game has been increasing at a good pace since the game launched, and this is true of all platforms. Some transmute and other sinks added aren't going to be able to curb that alone. I won't go into too much detail on the numbers, but on average players as a whole, just on PC, are generating 1 billion brand new refined AD every 3 days. Each console on average is 4 days to generate 1 billion AD. That number already factors in all of the AD spent during that time as well. This is why there needs to be better generation limits in conjunction with AD sinks.
We did pull data on how much of our player base earns over 100k RAD on any given day before implementing this change, and that percentage is lower single digits. That number goes even lower when looking at how many accounts earn over 100k RAD every single day. A player can always log in on days they aren't grinding out AD to refine extra RAD on their characters.
So from the above we can draw some conclusions.
If the "percentage that is lower single digits" (shall we say 3%) makes more than 100k that means the change will affect that 3% only. Which also means that 97% will not be affected by the change.
Since your change in rough AD is targeting to reduce the "generating 1 billion brand new refined AD every 3 days" amount and the other 97% of the player base will not be affected in anyway and the AD generation from them will continue undisturbed, that also means that the "percentage that is lower single digits" generates the larger portion of those "1 billion brand new refined AD every 3 days"
So, and just to see that I get ti right, The 3% of players, that generates more than 100k per day, is responsible for the situation we have now and help into generating a big portion, if not the larger part, of the 1 billion AD per 3 days, because as per your data, the other 97% since it wont be affected it wont change and will keep generating the same amount of AD if not more.
I hope you see the logical fallacy in those statements above.
PS Even if that was happening (which I doubt) we can easily speculate that, to do mass farm you need at BEST 20m per char (1X 3 man about 7-9m and a skimrish another 10m) which would take 17 hours at least, to 20 hours NON STOP farming per 24 hour day every day. Isn't it simpler to see who is logged 17-20 hours everyday, investigate and act? Cause I'm sure its not human... I think we all know the answer though.
Don't get me wrong, some of the changes like leavers penalty and the right scaling %, are a very good steps, but its not enough to have good intentions but to also have the right implementation when ti comes to AD.
You are wrong about one thing. The 97% will not "not be affected in any way". Those players will see, between the cap increase ant the boost in rAD rewards, a positive effect.
Assuming that all players will see an increase is also wrong. Some will but even that percentage will not change the outcome as per dev words is not the "target group". What you probably didn't understand is that by the word "not affected" it means negatively which means the 97% is not a part of the problem and if they are not part of the problem the rest 3% is.
The change is not here to make us produce more AD but to limit the overall AD generation and so even a big portion of the 97% will see a reduction per account unless you disagree on that too and the dev is wrong.
The point of my post was that there is an inconsistency with numbers and /or the explanation as it's quoted in the devs post. At least that's what I see.
I'm Rick from Inappropriate show name redacted. For anyone who's watched my streams ya know I don't pack away 100k in a day easily. I get too distracted >:) Nevertheless, I feel the initial limit of 100k is a bit of "too much, too soon".
Would it not be wiser to set the max number to a higher amount then lower it little by little over the next year. This would give better data as to how setting an account wide RAD limit has affected the player base. This whole thing is not simply about changing numbers. It's about how these changes makes us feel. Even in a virtual envirioment the player is going to feel gut level reaction. As would anyone who was told they will be losing a large portion of their income.
Just as in RL, income in Neverwinter allows for a certain amount of "freedom". For my part the freedom I've enjoyed the most is freedom from grinding. Being able to bust my HAMSTER for few days to refine enough RAD keeps things from getting to monotonous. After these changes are implemented it will take that much longer to achive my income goal.
I don't know if this is written in stone. I hope we're having a debate here among like minded people, doesn't make much sense to debate something which is in truth not up to debate.
It's been floated the max RAD should be determined by the number of character slots the player has in total. As a player with a character slot for each class plus two, I agreed with this at first. Later the more I thought about it the more I realized this a choice of self interest. The merits of the idea, its pros and cons, I had quickly sidestep for my own benefit. On one pro, it would be a nice incentive to have and get more character lots. The con I kept returing to was how much this game is pointed at for being pay to win. Was this another PTW suggestion?
One of the main "selling" points of Mod 13 was you will make more AD faster with random queue, but now with Mod 14 we are being told that we are making to much AD to fast. (Granted from hearing the numbers I agree that the economy is growing to fast. But is that because of the amount of AD bring generated or lack of reasons to spend it? Personally I think that the latter is the bigger problem, and the hardest to change because it requires more good ideas.)
Anyway unless the devs are severely bipolar then they need to get on the same page and stick to it.
You are wrong about one thing. The 97% will not "not be affected in any way". Those players will see, between the cap increase ant the boost in rAD rewards, a positive effect.
There is no "cap increase", only a Cap Restriction. Since there was no cap restriction PER ACCOUNT before this .
There is a cap on refining rough AD, 36k. This mod will see that cap... wait for it... increased!
You are wrong about one thing. The 97% will not "not be affected in any way". Those players will see, between the cap increase ant the boost in rAD rewards, a positive effect.
There is no "cap increase", only a Cap Restriction. Since there was no cap restriction PER ACCOUNT before this .
There is a cap on refining rough AD, 36k. This mod will see that cap... wait for it... increased!
Over the last 2 years on PC, the net amount of refined AD in the game (all characters of all players) has increased 75%. The overall AD in the game has been increasing at a good pace since the game launched, and this is true of all platforms. Some transmute and other sinks added aren't going to be able to curb that alone. I won't go into too much detail on the numbers, but on average players as a whole, just on PC, are generating 1 billion brand new refined AD every 3 days. Each console on average is 4 days to generate 1 billion AD. That number already factors in all of the AD spent during that time as well. This is why there needs to be better generation limits in conjunction with AD sinks.
We did pull data on how much of our player base earns over 100k RAD on any given day before implementing this change, and that percentage is lower single digits. That number goes even lower when looking at how many accounts earn over 100k RAD every single day. A player can always log in on days they aren't grinding out AD to refine extra RAD on their characters.
So from the above we can draw some conclusions.
If the "percentage that is lower single digits" (shall we say 3%) makes more than 100k that means the change will affect that 3% only. Which also means that 97% will not be affected by the change.
Since your change in rough AD is targeting to reduce the "generating 1 billion brand new refined AD every 3 days" amount and the other 97% of the player base will not be affected in anyway and the AD generation from them will continue undisturbed, that also means that the "percentage that is lower single digits" generates the larger portion of those "1 billion brand new refined AD every 3 days"
So, and just to see that I get ti right, The 3% of players, that generates more than 100k per day, is responsible for the situation we have now and help into generating a big portion, if not the larger part, of the 1 billion AD per 3 days, because as per your data, the other 97% since it wont be affected it wont change and will keep generating the same amount of AD if not more.
I hope you see the logical fallacy in those statements above.
PS Even if that was happening (which I doubt) we can easily speculate that, to do mass farm you need at BEST 20m per char (1X 3 man about 7-9m and a skimrish another 10m) which would take 17 hours at least, to 20 hours NON STOP farming per 24 hour day every day. Isn't it simpler to see who is logged 17-20 hours everyday, investigate and act? Cause I'm sure its not human... I think we all know the answer though.
Don't get me wrong, some of the changes like leavers penalty and the right scaling %, are a very good steps, but its not enough to have good intentions but to also have the right implementation when ti comes to AD.
You are wrong about one thing. The 97% will not "not be affected in any way". Those players will see, between the cap increase ant the boost in rAD rewards, a positive effect.
Assuming that all players will see an increase is also wrong. Some will but even that percentage will not change the outcome as per dev words is not the "target group". What you probably didn't understand is that by the word "not affected" it means negatively which means the 97% is not a part of the problem and if they are not part of the problem the rest 3% is.
The change is not here to make us produce more AD but to limit the overall AD generation and so even a big portion of the 97% will see a reduction per account unless you disagree on that too and the dev is wrong.
The point of my post was that there is an inconsistency with numbers and /or the explanation as it's quoted in the devs post. At least that's what I see.
The rAD rewards are being increased from 6,600 - 8,000 for first runs, and 600 - 1,000 for following runs. All players will see this increase, even though players that only have time for one or two runs will benefit most from that extra 1,800 AD per day. Those benefits, at least to my admittedly overly-literal mind, does mean the opposite of no effect. But even if only the bottom 3% of players will see real, noticeable gains the planned changes will still produce the desired effect: reducing the 1.8 billion rAD entering the economy (and not really going anywhere) every 3-5 days.
Comments
Low single digit percentage of players currently refine over 100k per day.
This means at least 95% don't.
But... what makes up that 95%?
Is it based on only L70s who play 6 days a week on average?
Is it ALL players who have ever created a character, including those who bailed ten minutes into the tutorial?
Somewhere in the middle?
What?
Vague stats based on unclear metrics never inspire confidence
I can tell you that over 90% of my guild currently DONT refine anywhere near 100k, in fact they refine zero, cos thats how many stopped playing since Random Queues were introduced.
Now, WHY are those 95%+ not refining 100k?
Have they mainly fewer than 3 characters? I assume not, because if this quantitative tightening begins with a raise in capacity because people are hitting their 36/72 current cap... it will achieve the exact opposite of its desired effect. I.e MORE RAD refined daily.
Raising the capacity for people who don't hit the current cap is disingenuous spin worthy of a cheap tabloid op ed.
What's the Mean of that five or smaller percent. Not a flat average, but the 5-10% in the middle. Because slashing the earning capacity of EVERY player who has purchased even ONE extra character slot... seems less like a refinement and more like abject panic.
Now, I'm looking at X Box cos thats what I play. According to what we've been told 250'000'000 more AD enters the economy than leaves on a daily basis. That is the daily growth.
I'd be interested to know how much of that changes hands on the ZAX at 0% tax.
That's not privileged information, by the way, I could get it by simply sitting and watching the ZAX for a day, but I'd rather not since I need to stockpile AD right now...
If that ZAX figure is negligible, one has to wonder what people are intending to do with all those AD.
1.75 BILLION per week..
I blow mine regularly on Shard Chests for my guild, and pretty things, with every good intention to save up for GR Legendary Pack, but something shiny always catches my eye. I refine about 25k per day per toon.
I run 8.
One of each class.
I am not a lifeless greedy, entitled, rich zombie. I manage my time well, and have a routine. I keep track of stuff like seals and Ichor, and top up salvage when needed. In fact my routine often means I don't need to run all my weeklies to hit my 200k per day.
Basically, if 1.75 billion AD is piling up every week, there are two solutions.
1.) Take the easy option that will involve telling the highest earning 5% of your player base to effectively "Go HAMSTER yourselves" while doubling down on that "HAMSTER you" by telling those players that all your old capacity is being passed over to players who never bought extra toons, or players who aren't hitting their current cap.
or
2.) Find better reasons for people to want to spend them, AND (from the ZAX pov) trade for them.
Given that in the past few years, dropping Leadership AD, lowering salvage values, replacing invoke RAD with a bonus system and so on, lowering the AD income rate has done NOTHING to reduce the economic impact or the relative value of AD. (Not unless the data claims since 2016 are false... which I'm sure is not the case.) its probably time to try something else.
The way to make AD more valuable and therefore more desirable on the ZAX (and thereby encourage cash rich/time poor players to buy Zen) is to find better outlets for it.
Run a competition for ideas, brainstorm in the office, but don't take the option that clearly hasn't worked every other time you tried it. Lowering the potential of every player who has ever bought extra characters will only result in a LOT of bad feeling and lost stakeholder goodwill. That's stuff that is really hard to get back, so if there's some sort of, "we'll get them back with M:TG... don't bank on it.
And even if you can't think of ways to encourage people to spend AD, don't make the new cap so punitively low.
1. New AD through refining rAD
2. Finding/creating stuff desired by other players, and selling it to them, using the auction house or otherwise.
I think it will be good for the game if ppl will do more of 2. and less of 1.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the new AD amounts work out this way for a non Epic (Intermediate/Advanced/Expert) player...
I log in and run my character through a dungeon... I get 8000 AD with that character... Then I run a skirmish...I get 8000AD... For a total of 16K. Now I CAN continue and run as many dungeons/ skirmishes as I wish until I hit 100K, meaning 84 times!
Currently I have 5 active characters, meaning that if I play all of them through a dungeon and skirmish a day, I can potentially earn 90-100K a day, if I have that much time.
So effectively, after the change, if I ran the same number of dungeons and skirmishes (10), I will earn only 32K per day for the same amount of time.
So currently I can potentially earn $3 mil AD per month, if I never miss a day and can devote about 2 plus hours each day to JUST dungeons/skirmishes. VIP costs 500K AD to convert.
With the new system, I will be making only 960K per month for the same amount of time, which comes nowhere close to allowing me to earn my VIP by playing.
This change will have the worst (Not biggest, but worst) effect on non-elite/ super high level characters. Those folks are upset that they can only convert 100K. WE will likely never even SEE 100K for quite some time, as we will barely earn enough AD to pay for gear or some extra companions... maybe a couple of enchantments.
The change will be hard for those folks who are used to converting hundreds of thousands every day... It will be devastating to those of us who have to rely solely on Dungeon runs/ skirmishes for AD.
The only people who are upset it seems are the ones who "work" the system to get IMO an abnormal amount of ad -- which inflates the prices in the AH.
100,000 ad a day is perfectly reasonable for an "average" player and will keep things balanced between those who do.
not have an army of alts and those who do.
1000000 alts ( yes i know that is an exaggeration) a day farming ad ) does nothing but harm the economy and make it harder for others who played the game normally ( in this case i mean normal as no 1000000 alts per day)
Dev's I hope you will stand firm and again thank you for looking out for the normal average player.
edit sp /formating/ clarity of thought
> I don't normally post here but I wanted to that the deves for this change the only people who are upset it seems are the ones who " work" the system to get IMO an abnormal amount of ad -- which inflates the prices in the AH.
>
> 100,000 ad a day is perfectly reasonable for an "average" player 1000000 alts ( yes i know that is an exaggeration) a day farming ad ) does nothing but harm the economy and make it harder for others who played the game normally ( in this case i mean normal as no 1000000 alts per day)
>
> Dev's i hope you will stand firm and thank you for looking out for the normal average player.
So let’s say we work at Wall Mart.
I work 14 hours a day, and you work 3 hours a day because that is what we each can manage.
Should we be paid the same?
I would actually prefer not to have to run dungeons to get AD. I would much prefer to have AD become part of mission rewards, but that has never been the case. I don't farm. I just try to make enought to get along, and even though I've played for years I have never earned enough to buy legendary gear or mounts.
In MY mind, the average player, especially before 70, will get all their AD from running a dungeon/ skirmish. A lot of folks actually play multiple characters to enjoy them. 32K a day for an account won't allow these players to afford very much, expecially if ti has to be split among 2-3 characters. Heck, a single Preservation Ward costs 5k plus on the AH.
I am all for the idea of controlling massive AD abuse, but some 'average players' have only one source of AD, and reducing it to less than the current amount that we can earn is going to hurt. And that IS playing normally.
Most seem to not address the fact that first run bonuses are now account gated.
I'm ignoring the issue of account capping the amount of ad you can refine, but the second change effectively kills any use for alts except for support/dps variety. I'm left with running the daily randoms on my main only and then what? I don't see anyone bothering with the random queue for the pitiful repeat ad bonus.
And at this point I'll need to either run dungeons for salvage in which case I'll queue specifically for those I know are fast or I'm done for the day. And then the 100k cap is unnecessary. I though you made added the random queues because you wanted people to run a variety of content and not just non stop etos. Well congratulations, with this change I'll go back to running etos only and those of us who can run the end game content will run only that. And again, while doing this why should I bother with my alts if they are less well geared? The only use to the is invoking with the hope of one day getting a coal ward.
You want to cap the ad? Alright, though I think there are better options it's not that big of a deal. But the second change is really making me consider my future in the game. It seem like in an attempt to entice more people to spend their money on ZEN with better options in the store, you've decided to do so by making ad gain frustrating in any other way.
If these Devs truly cared about the AD vaule, they could end this all in a few weeks. Increase drops rates on all valuabe drops, like Ulitmates. Include Gem Drops up to R12 istead of R9. Sell Orange Mounts on the Zen Store. Cut all Bazaar prices and upgrade Runestone requirements by half. That would end it quickly.
We only grind because we are chasing the Item Level and specific items to be proficent in the New Content. If this change won't effect you, you have either already attained IL 16K+, or you are not chasing it. If you are NOT chasing IL 16K+, you're just playing for "fun and chats" or whatever, you won't understand or care, because for whatever reason, you are not trying to be your best in this game.
But for those of us constantly chasing the upper echelon of item Level and specific gear, who haven't reached that level yet, this is devastating. It drains any hope we once had of reaching our goals. It says the Devs don't want us to reach them. It really says we were stupid to ever play t his game andf devote such enourmous time, money and any combination of the two to this game who doesn't want us and continues to do everything it can get away with to attack us directly, preventing us from reaching our goal.
You want to cut our wages but not our rent and utilities, fine. But don't lie to us and say its for our own benefit. I believe your statistical numbers are skewed. Perhaps only 3-5% of players refine over 100K a day because only 8% of your total player source numbers actually play the game with any reasonable sense of regularity. Perhaps this 3-5% turns out to be 50,000 acutal players, and the other 95-97% represent any Character that was EVER created in this game since Beta. Who knows? But you are wrong. Wrong in this decision, wrong in blaming those who put in hours of grinding to TRY and succeed at your game without spending thousands of doallars, and offensivly wrong in telling us this poison you are shoving down our throats is cake and ice cream. It's poison. And if everyone takes a bite, it will kill this game.
I say screw it. Their minds are set. All we are at this point is drama filled comedic entertainment for them. We bicker whine and moan and talk as if we know something they don't (maybe we do). In the end they will do what they want just like the bondings and as they said we will cry but will stick around. It's true. I expressed my hate and threatened to leave. I have invested probably $4,000 in this game. Like an iPhone user I am in too deep to leave. They know that. That's why it doesn't matter.
I will keep playing. I will hate these types of changes. In the end through all the hell we are put through it is still a good game at its core. It's like loving your wife but hating the inlaws.
I'm done wasting my time with this. When they ask for help for the bugfixes I'll come back. Clearly they were not looking for alternatives only to be assured of their decision and to laugh at our misery.
You are wrong about one thing. The 97% will not "not be affected in any way". Those players will see, between the cap increase ant the boost in rAD rewards, a positive effect.
There is no "cap increase", only a Cap Restriction. Since there was no cap restriction PER ACCOUNT before this .
...make gear, EVERYTHING!, available for purchase yet allow the option for those that enjoy the current NW ...way; to do so.
The thing that's hard for me to wrap my head around though, yet it's an essential point - is that with these changes, 8,000 RAD will be worth a lot more than it is right now... or at least, that's the hope.
Anybody have an idea of how much of the current AD it would take to be equivalent to 8,000 future AD?
Good luck with the road fwd
I'm OK with these changes... i have 8 Characters and i can make 180K AD/day - 250K AD/day... it doesn't bothers me to get less ad per day if these changes will contribute to have a better Economic System in the long run... btw remember that these changes won't be here FOREVER.
A few days ago i was thinking to leave the game for awhile because i was feeling the need (better said to be forced) to play RQ to get AD, these runs full of bots weren't Fun at all, i don't like the idea of being wasting my time doing the same thing over and over... the game feels like a job and not as a game anymore. Now with the upcoming changes + New Module Stuff i'll stay and see how everything evolves...
What i want is to efficiently spend my Playtime with guildies and friends, enjoy the game and get some results at the end... not this crazy race called: alts farm ad HAMSTER tbh
For those people who ask: and now what am i supposed to do now with my alts?
Knowledge is your best Weapon! hey! there are lot of stuff to do with your alts you just have to think a little, it's not hard you know!
There are a lot of good ideas here in this forum to sink a lot of AD per day! DEVS just have to actually read... and perhaps ask the community what we think about it! Feedback it's the best way to solve a problem after all!
Here are some suggestions:
1._ Special Vendor for Transmute only> 45k ad/set + 5k ad/transm= 50k ad
2._ Remove Preservation Wards from Zen Store and put that item in the WB> 1 Stack of PW x99pw= 400kAD (4 days worth/rad)
3._ Include a Legendary Mount in WB= 3.000.000 AD / i'll buy this thing only to get the 140% buff and use my guild boon on something else (more XP, more Gold, less time revive sickness...)
4._ Unbind Scrolls> 50k ad/scroll.
5._ Create a new cube, let's call it a "Gold Cube"=50k ad> with this thing you can get 500 stats from your weapon set.
6._ New reinforcements kits for gear (armor, ring, cloak, waist, shirt, pants...) 100k ad each one!
7._ Improve Masterworks, this system has the best "sink" ad ever in this game, you just have to tune up!
8._ Implement a 3rd Chest in all dungeons: at the end of the Dungeon/Skirmish/Raid you can collect 3 Chest> you can open 1 chest with your daily dungeon key or vip keys, the second one with keys created with currency from determined campaign and opened the last one with "Epic"-"legendary" Keys from WB (high drop rate of getting ues+something else)
9._ Special Vendor selling Guild Boons for lonely wolves
10._ Create an event like NCL with a fee entry of 100.000 k ad> where you can win legendary-epic mounts, a lot of RP plus New and Unique PvP Gear!
11._ Special Vendor selling Legendary Insignias> 500k ad each one
12._ +++++ there are good ideas here! You only need to schedule 30mins of your time/day reading Post that has been marked for Moderators or something like that!
GET KNOWLEDGE. PLAY SMART. ENJOY AND MOVE FORWARDS
this is what still amazes me and i don't even play the damn thing anymore.
It would be amusing if it wasn't so preposterous. Back when the random queues were introduced, the justification was not only that it would improve dungeon population, but also that it would facilitate AD generation and would result in a net positive. Thomas Foss said as much in that trainwreck of a state of the game where he admitted the RQ's needed work (which is to say, everything the playerbase warned against effectively came to pass), but on one account they had gotten it right, which was players were making more AD.
So, if we take all this at their word, on one module they (supposedly) increase AD generation on purpose only to have it curtailed on the very next mod? Six months ago they were justifying that unpopular change with an increase in aD generation, now, on the very next patch that same increase suddenly has to go, but it'll be great for us, you'll see. it's like they can't even be consistent with their lying at this point; and by now, assuming they're bold faced liars is the most charitable assumption when compared to the alternative of thinking them to be utterly inept.
This when they simply go along with pretending the impact is positive, like in the key situation that would totally be offset by better loot drops which then were visibily shadow nerfed to pre key change levels.
It's a standard M.O. for cryptic at this point. They break the game beyond the point of no return, be it with sales that are so "telegraphed" that they actively encourage hoarding where the grind gives us very little in terms of other choices, be it with the totally out of control power creep. In most of these cases, their approach is to consistently and constantly shatter player choice and give them less.
The change is not here to make us produce more AD but to limit the overall AD generation and so even a big portion of the 97% will see a reduction per account unless you disagree on that too and the dev is wrong.
The point of my post was that there is an inconsistency with numbers and /or the explanation as it's quoted in the devs post. At least that's what I see.
I'm Rick from Inappropriate show name redacted. For anyone who's watched my streams ya know I don't pack away 100k in a day easily. I get too distracted >:) Nevertheless, I feel the initial limit of 100k is a bit of "too much, too soon".
Would it not be wiser to set the max number to a higher amount then lower it little by little over the next year. This would give better data as to how setting an account wide RAD limit has affected the player base. This whole thing is not simply about changing numbers. It's about how these changes makes us feel. Even in a virtual envirioment the player is going to feel gut level reaction. As would anyone who was told they will be losing a large portion of their income.
Just as in RL, income in Neverwinter allows for a certain amount of "freedom". For my part the freedom I've enjoyed the most is freedom from grinding. Being able to bust my HAMSTER for few days to refine enough RAD keeps things from getting to monotonous. After these changes are implemented it will take that much longer to achive my income goal.
I don't know if this is written in stone. I hope we're having a debate here among like minded people, doesn't make much sense to debate something which is in truth not up to debate.
It's been floated the max RAD should be determined by the number of character slots the player has in total. As a player with a character slot for each class plus two, I agreed with this at first. Later the more I thought about it the more I realized this a choice of self interest. The merits of the idea, its pros and cons, I had quickly sidestep for my own benefit. On one pro, it would be a nice incentive to have and get more character lots. The con I kept returing to was how much this game is pointed at for being pay to win. Was this another PTW suggestion?
I can't honestly say I know. Discuss?
One of the main "selling" points of Mod 13 was you will make more AD faster with random queue, but now with Mod 14 we are being told that we are making to much AD to fast. (Granted from hearing the numbers I agree that the economy is growing to fast. But is that because of the amount of AD bring generated or lack of reasons to spend it? Personally I think that the latter is the bigger problem, and the hardest to change because it requires more good ideas.)
Anyway unless the devs are severely bipolar then they need to get on the same page and stick to it.
There is no "cap increase", only a Cap Restriction. Since there was no cap restriction PER ACCOUNT before this .
There is a cap on refining rough AD, 36k. This mod will see that cap... wait for it... increased!
There is a cap on refining rough AD, 36k. This mod will see that cap... wait for it... increased!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is our jump in ad earnings placing a serious hurt on 3rd parry ad sellers the real issue ? Makes one wonder.