We have too many debuffs and dimishing returns in endgame groups reduce their effectivenes pretty badly, please consider changing a few of them to buffs.
Suggestions for Dreadteft:
- Change it to a buff (24% - 30%)
- No longer prevents you from casting other powers.
- Reduce cooldown by ~3 seconds
- Like Pillar of Power, make it so the moment you cast it, the cooldown starts, that should help it to have a better uptime.
Suggestions for Tyrannical Curse:
As it no longer benefits from things it shouldn't (mod 10.5 fix), please consider:
- Allow it to be cast without needing a target like it formely did.
- Give back the ability to Tyrannical curse 3 targets.
1) The new soft cap is 300%. 2) DR starts to hit very hard at 500% or so total. 3) It's actually very hard to hit those values unless everyone specifically slots debuff powers, many of which are single target and class/path specific. 4) The comment came with a suggested increase to SW encounter powers for various reasons, like how the CW counterpart power Disintegrate kind of screwed up the whole "my Killing Flames hits like a daily" thing the SW had going.
Wow you people see "debuff" and it's like a chain reaction with people running around like headless chickens.
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Thanks for fixing Lesser Curse. And I hope you will push for Murderous Flames .Letting it effect more ( Fire ) powers . Sooner rather than later aka Mod.13 . That way you would have a better guage when you do get around to the SW again after you have given all the others class waiting for a balance pass a turn. That might take some time. And Murderous Flames could help fill that time. Thanks.
fwiw - buffing fire powers wouldn't very helpful for a soul binder warlock. Speaking from my experience, my main rotation for mobs is BoVA, fiery bolt and soul scorch for mobs then switching out bolt for warlocks bargain for boss fights. All of which are necrotic damage with the only exception being fiery bolt.
From the debuff post: "* There are diminishing returns capped at +300% bonus damage from these debuffs, ie, diminishing returns to bonus damage so that the total can never exceed (or even quite reach) +300%."
300% is the maximum you can reach with infinite debuffing powers.
@tyrtallow Do you have any other source for that 500% you mentioned?
ACtually, their post is a little misleading. 300% reads like 400% on ACT
Anyway, debuffs < buffs, we get deminished all time ... My overall effectiveness did not went over 200% in a tong party so far (more like 192% +/-), that´s the price for pugging, even tough running Sellsword myself. If I understood right @naoqueroforum your effectiveness shows up to 300% overall on ACT?
Warlock needs an overall buff towards dps, so any little help is welcome. FoE classfeature get´s worse in a buffer party the higher the debuffs are, so the advantage drops off vs Soulbinder. Make it a buff, and by that fix the offhand bonus please Same would be welcome for Soulbinder , pointing at Burning Souls. That power is a 30x0,3% buff, but tbh I do not get that buff running at max most of the time, so it´s only a 4.5% buff if at all. This is an easy "tweak" @balanced#2849 , wich costs near no affords than switching few numbers.
"Your Soul Sparks now also increase your damage by .12/.24/.36/.48/.6% per Soul Spark. " Leading to a max buff at 18% (wich is pretty hard to keep up), burning your sparks most of the time.
@bellkazi thx pointing at helltouched as a debuff, also a punished debuff in buffruns, same as unhandy doing trash
Anyway, debuffs < buffs, we get deminished all time ... My overall effectiveness did not went over 200% in a tong party so far (more like 192% +/-), that´s the price for pugging, even tough running Sellsword myself. If I understood right @naoqueroforum your effectiveness shows up to 300% overall on ACT?
If you were allowed to stack unlimited debuffs, your effectiveness would show up as close to 400% (likely 390something% with debuff diminishing returns), since 100% effectiveness is normal (1.0x) damage, and the ~300% comes from the sum of all your debuff %.
So, in your T9G example, your team was placing debuffs summing up to ~90%, factoring debuff diminishing returns.
Anyway, debuffs < buffs, we get deminished all time ... My overall effectiveness did not went over 200% in a tong party so far (more like 192% +/-), that´s the price for pugging, even tough running Sellsword myself. If I understood right @naoqueroforum your effectiveness shows up to 300% overall on ACT?
Warlock needs an overall buff towards dps, so any little help is welcome. FoE classfeature get´s worse in a buffer party the higher the debuffs are, so the advantage drops off vs Soulbinder. Make it a buff, and by that fix the offhand bonus please Same would be welcome for Soulbinder , pointing at Burning Souls. That power is a 30x0,3% buff, but tbh I do not get that buff running at max most of the time, so it´s only a 4.5% buff if at all. This is an easy "tweak" @balanced#2849 , wich costs near no affords than switching few numbers.
"Your Soul Sparks now also increase your damage by .12/.24/.36/.48/.6% per Soul Spark. " Leading to a max buff at 18% (wich is pretty hard to keep up), burning your sparks most of the time.
@bellkazi thx pointing at helltouched as a debuff, also a punished debuff in buffruns, same as unhandy doing trash
Not what I meant at all. @rjc9000 already explained what I meant. Thanks. What I meant is that with infinite debuffs, you would reach the +300% max the devs announced when debuffs were changed on their post. But what you would see on an ACT log would be 400% if you somehow managed to get infinite debuffing (base 100% +300% from the debuffs). It is not possible of course. Hard enough to get even close to a 300% on ACT (+200% debuff).
I know this is a bit off topic now, but I started to wonder, and someone might already know the answer. It is about the coupling of Arpen with debuffs at really high debuff levels. If you are at the RI cap, fine, no changes. But what happens when you are slightly below. Since the effectiveness from debuffs and arpen work in the same layer, being slightly below the arpen cap might not be as punishing if you are on a really high debuff group. For example, if you are at 100% effectiveness at a boss that requires 85% RI and you drop to 80%RI, your effectiveness will drop to 95%. But what happens, at the same boss, when you are at 300% effectiveness and your RI goes from 85 to 80%. Would it drop to 295% or does it drop to 298.5% (roughly the change of an extra 5% debuff at that level of diminished returns)? The latter case makes not being at the RI cap way less debilitating than the former. Anyone tested this already?
Anyway, debuffs < buffs, we get deminished all time ... My overall effectiveness did not went over 200% in a tong party so far (more like 192% +/-), that´s the price for pugging, even tough running Sellsword myself. If I understood right @naoqueroforum your effectiveness shows up to 300% overall on ACT?
If you were allowed to stack unlimited debuffs, your effectiveness would show up as close to 400% (likely 390something% with debuff diminishing returns), since 100% effectiveness is normal (1.0x) damage, and the ~300% comes from the sum of all your debuff %.
So, in your T9G example, your team was placing debuffs summing up to ~90%, factoring debuff diminishing returns.
You talk of 100% from arp and another 92% from debuffs I guess. But an average effectivenes of 300%, never saw that anywhere? GWF is pretty good in selfdebuffing by WMS+DS, leading to average effect above 200% in my runs, depends on the class though. From my pov warlock will hardly get there.
Anyway, debuffs < buffs, we get deminished all time ... My overall effectiveness did not went over 200% in a tong party so far (more like 192% +/-), that´s the price for pugging, even tough running Sellsword myself. If I understood right @naoqueroforum your effectiveness shows up to 300% overall on ACT?
If you were allowed to stack unlimited debuffs, your effectiveness would show up as close to 400% (likely 390something% with debuff diminishing returns), since 100% effectiveness is normal (1.0x) damage, and the ~300% comes from the sum of all your debuff %.
So, in your T9G example, your team was placing debuffs summing up to ~90%, factoring debuff diminishing returns.
You talk of 100% from arp and another 92% from debuffs I guess. But an average effectivenes of 300%, never saw that anywhere? GWF is pretty good in selfdebuffing by WMS+DS, leading to average effect above 200% in my runs, depends on the class though. From my pov warlock will hardly get there.
From my last recorded ACT in endboss Tong I had an average of 271.5% effectiveness overall, with certain powers like Brood of Hadar's Bite on 346.4%, Creeping Death on 307.4% and lesser curses going for 299%
Absolutely possible for SW to go beyond that. You just need to do your stuff correct and have a group doing their stuff correct.
For example, if you are at 100% effectiveness at a boss that requires 85% RI and you drop to 80%RI, your effectiveness will drop to 95%. But what happens, at the same boss, when you are at 300% effectiveness and your RI goes from 85 to 80%. Would it drop to 295% or does it drop to 298.5% (roughly the change of an extra 5% debuff at that level of diminished returns)? The latter case makes not being at the RI cap way less debilitating than the former. Anyone tested this already?
ArP has basically been decoupled from debuffs, so for all intents and purposes RI is a straight damage increase. If you go from 85% to 80% then you lose 5% damage. That means you do 95% base damage, and 300% debuff effectiveness turns that into 285%.
You can just google neverwinter debuff changes for preliminary test data about the current way debuffs work, the results indicate that to even get near that 300% cap (there, happy?) you'll need 500%+ total debuff value. Based on actual value/total debuff scaling, the actual softcap would be around the 230-250% or so with ~400% total debuff.
BTW from my old post that got removed by a mod for linking an inappropriate site, I maintain that since the devs are set on changing the multiple buff/debuff meta then there is room for growth for FoE and that the main reason people use HB in the first place is Infantile Compensation. The removal of the post means that some of @schietindebux suggestions/replies to my post above now lack context.
Post edited by tyrtallow on
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Anyway, debuffs < buffs, we get deminished all time ... My overall effectiveness did not went over 200% in a tong party so far (more like 192% +/-), that´s the price for pugging, even tough running Sellsword myself. If I understood right @naoqueroforum your effectiveness shows up to 300% overall on ACT?
If you were allowed to stack unlimited debuffs, your effectiveness would show up as close to 400% (likely 390something% with debuff diminishing returns), since 100% effectiveness is normal (1.0x) damage, and the ~300% comes from the sum of all your debuff %.
So, in your T9G example, your team was placing debuffs summing up to ~90%, factoring debuff diminishing returns.
You talk of 100% from arp and another 92% from debuffs I guess. But an average effectivenes of 300%, never saw that anywhere? GWF is pretty good in selfdebuffing by WMS+DS, leading to average effect above 200% in my runs, depends on the class though. From my pov warlock will hardly get there.
From my last recorded ACT in endboss Tong I had an average of 271.5% effectiveness overall, with certain powers like Brood of Hadar's Bite on 346.4%, Creeping Death on 307.4% and lesser curses going for 299%
Absolutely possible for SW to go beyond that. You just need to do your stuff correct and have a group doing their stuff correct.
That´s maybe the difference running with 5xSellsword and typical artifacts, and running random group, with nothing of that... You need a neer perfect setup, like above and lantern, black heart etc. to get there i guess. I spoke of an average effectivness in that dungeon. I witnessed some above 200, but never 300%, at bossencounter I saw higher number, esp. Orcus, maybe you can show me that 300% some day, til then I simply disagree. I simply misunderstood @naoqueroforum post above.
One question. How do you stack debuff for 584%, after deminishing returns leading to 246% debuff in a hole, ending in a 346% effectiveness from Brood? My warlock achieves debuffs from FoE 15, Sellsword10, infernal wrath 5, Vorpal 2, PoP10 + 42% nothing else My DC does PoD, plaguefire, DG towards the group. 12,5+17,5+3x3.5 trans+10% ByS + 15% CG=68,5% (at max if everything pops up same time) So how 584% stacking debuffs at once? Your teammates must do the rest of 542% DR debuff?
lol, after doing some math myself I recognized that graph tom posted simply shows the result by clicking on it. If i understand it correctly, that 5.84(x100%) is the aplied debuff and the 2.4(x100%) is the effective result after DR? https://www.desmos.com/calculator/k6dbonvo5y
For example, if you are at 100% effectiveness at a boss that requires 85% RI and you drop to 80%RI, your effectiveness will drop to 95%. But what happens, at the same boss, when you are at 300% effectiveness and your RI goes from 85 to 80%. Would it drop to 295% or does it drop to 298.5% (roughly the change of an extra 5% debuff at that level of diminished returns)? The latter case makes not being at the RI cap way less debilitating than the former. Anyone tested this already?
ArP has basically been decoupled from debuffs, so for all intents and purposes RI is a straight damage increase. If you go from 85% to 80% then you lose 5% damage. That means you do 95% base damage, and 300% debuff effectiveness turns that into 285%.
You can just google neverwinter debuff changes for preliminary test data about the current way debuffs work, the results indicate that to even get near that 300% cap you'll need 500%+ total debuff value.
BTW from my old post that got removed by a mod for linking an inappropriate site, I maintain that since the devs are set on changing the multiple buff/debuff meta then there is room for growth for FoE and that the main reason people use HB in the first place is Infantile Compensation (the removal of the post means that some of @schietindebux replies to my comments above now lack context).
Googled around a bit but couldn't find anything really useful. Almost everything is outdated. Best I could find indicates that right now an added 100% debuff yields ~+92% effectiveness, 200% added debuff yields ~+160% and if you somehow manage to get 500% added debuff value it yields a ~+240% to effectiveness (340% ACT reading). Getting near the +300% cap is somewhat an exaggeration since you will always be at least around 60% away from it with what we have available at the game right now. Unless they missed something that bypasses that curve and is a straight addition to effectiveness. The breakdown from the +~240% you get at 500% debuffing seems to be like this:
0% to 100% -> ~90% damage increase 100% to 200% -> ~37% damage increase 200% to 300% -> ~15% 300% to 400% -> ~8% 400% to 500% -> ~4% So 1.9*1.37*1.15*.108*1.04 -> ~340% effectiveness you'd see on ACT. The last 100 adds quite a bit less than the first. It seems reasonable but I still think I need to hit preview a little bit with my friends and dummies to run some tests and make sure those numbers I found are close.
And @schietindebux , it is quite hard getting to 300% or above ACT eff. numbers. I'm checking a log I have of a 19min Tong run with an amazing TR and decent debuffs and his highest eff. value was 236. His 59m Shadow of demise hit was at 211% eff. The GF on the same run reached 255% maximum eff. I will check my other logs to see if I find any value above 300%, but I know it's quite hard to accomplish and not achievable with just any party setup.
Well my point is more that 500%+ total debuff is not something you just "get" outside of instances like Tia, and especially if you're trying to balance DPS output and debuffs. While the situation is different with the current meta (which heavily favors buff/debuff classes) we also need to take into account that the devs are actively trying to change that.
Frankly the fact that the class doesn't have a lot of debuffs in the first place outside of Dreadtheft/FoE is one of the reasons why these debuffs stand out. SWs are basically in that sweet spot where it's not so debuff-dependent that it would be radically affected when the meta inevitably changes, as long as its core features/encounters/feats get the necessary damage buffs/damage scaling fixes (which pretty much everyone here already agrees it needs, including the balance dev). Like I said, this also means that there is room for feats like FoE to grow as better debuffs. It's not exactly like these changes are coming in mod12b anyway, as much as we want them to.
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Soul Desecration: I think this capstone doesn't offer enough of a damage boost for being a capstone, the idea of two soul puppets is neat - but I would rather one soul puppet be really meaningful.
Actually since SW already has a dps and a healer path, why not giving him a third tanking one instead of wanting another (bad) dps ? The idea would be that the Soul Puppet could tank. Mocking Spirit already goes in this way and the mod 10 changes just increased Soul Puppet survivability. So i suggest you change Ghastly Commander to works for the whole party and make Spiritfire recognized as the Soul Puppet damage (tricky change here, i know but you can also make every damage give her some threat instead). Then you can change Burning Puppets to force any enemy attacked by the Soul Puppet to attack her for x seconds. These are only some ideas but you can change lots of things here and i think it would be nice to see an useful Soul Puppet instead of a decorative sprite !
Pillar of Power: The radius on this power is currently 13', which I think is pretty big, but I understand the frustration of having to constantly move (whether to a splat, or re-positioning yourself) and having to replace it.
Actually, PoP is very nice as it is. It takes a little bit to know what to do with but we talked about interesting gameplay before in this threat. THIS is an interesting gameplay. Knowing where the mobs will spawn and predict where you have to be in your PoP is one of the most complicated but enjoying gameplay of the SW (unlike Tab spamming between each Soul Scorch, for example ) so please, don't listen to every complainer here and never change this ! (You all can flame me now) No but for real, having a too large PoP would completely invalidate Soul Binder path since you wouldn't need to follow moving bosses anymore. For the character balance, it's not a good idea at all !
Eldritch Momentum: I've been hearing a lot of feedback on this one, and would like to get it to a better place. I would like to stay away from it granting players a Damage boost or Damage Resistance boost, as I think those types of buffs would be better elsewhere. It previously granted a large portion of Stamina for the warlock, and keeping it close to that seems ideal.
A couple of ideas that I've been throwing around. As a note, each of the bullet points would be individual changes (not all of them together). Feedback on this is welcomed!
Revert Eldritch Momentum to grant 1/2/3/4/5% stamina when hit, but keep the Combat Advantage proc on daily usage.
Increase the Combat Advantage time to 4/6/8/10/12 (up from 4/5/6/7/8) and Increase Stamina restoration to 5/10/15/20/25%
The stamina gain after using a daily power is doubled for the Scourge Warlock.
Using a daily power increases Stamina Regen of nearby allies by 4/8/12/16/20% for 4/5/6/7/8 seconds (instead of a burst of Stamina)
Problem with giving Combat Advantage is that we already have a class feature for this. No pity, no mercy already does it... better. For stamina regen... Meh, sorry but nobody cares about that kind of buff... 5% on each hit is nice because it gives insane amounts of stamina back. Otherwise, it wouldn't be interesting ! And you don't want to give flat damage boost, okay (even if i still think this would be the perfect place for this) but my suggestion here is : Revert back Eldritch Momentum like it was and add some cooldown reduction for the allies when casting a daily. (15% seems cool)
PS : @balanced#2849 Thanks for what you do for us. SW really needs some changes and i can't wait to see further changes like Murderous Flames one coming !
Usually i never really have an issue with stamina, other than outside of combat so i really think it should be a passive movement speed buff with increased combat advantage damage for the party on daily use, getting combat advantage isnt very hard with positioning tbh. Pvp is the intended change would be helpful maybe but i dont see many using stamina drain
To inform the ones that did not take notice till now. That´s a list from Darthzarr summing the upcoming fixes from Bugtober, said to happen in mod 12b and 13. Pretty nice stuff for our class includet. Pretty curiuos how this may impact on actual class-balance, some changes i recognized would be a heavy boost, not only for warlock, some points are irritating somehow, talking about those WE procs from entity powers.
[fixed] Brood of Hadar (SW daily) doesn't proc Creeping Death [details required] Gates of Hell (SW daily) doesn't proc Creeping Death [details required] Many SW and HR offhand artifact class features don't work. [fixed] Flames of Empowerment (SW class feature) offhand bonus doesn't work. [fixed] Pillar of Power (SW encounter) cannot critically strike. [fixed] Murderous Flame (SW feat) is double mitigated by level 73 monsters. [fixed] Vampiric Embrace (SW encounter) doesn't give temp HP on curse consume. info] Tyrannical Curse (SW daily) has some beneficial changes. Including bugfixes. [fixed] Tyrannical Curse (SW daily) deals less damage to level 73 enemies. [fixed] Tyrannical Curse (SW daily) causes an SW to deal less damage when used in single target.
[fixed] The re-activation of Wraith's Shadow (SW encounter) doesn't benefit from Warlock's Curse. [fixed] Immolation of Spirits (SW daily) doesn't benefit from Warlock's Curse or Tyrannical Curse. [fixed] Soul Scorch (SW encounter) only ticks 5 times instead of 6 causing it to do 5/6ths of its intended damage. [fixed] Fiery Bolt (SW encounter) curse synergy is based off of the Warlock's target instead of the entity receiving the damage. [fixed] Tyrannical Curse (SW daily) is double mitigated by higher level enemies. [fixed] Tyrannical Curse (SW daily) doesn't properly benefit from armor penetration. [info] Soul Scorch (SW encounter) should not have it's curse effect triggered by Tyrannical Curse. [info] Brood of Hadar's Bite (SW daily secondary effect) is not supposed to be increased by Warlock's Curse.
[info] Several Scourge Warlock powers do not proc weapon enchantments. Looking into it. [info] Entity powers shouldn't be proccing weapon enchantments on every tick. [info] Any class that loses a significant portion of damage, should be compensated. [fixed] Several Scourge Warlock powers do not proc weapon enchantments.
I'd need to check again but I'm pretty sure the developer who talked about compensation after the entity change they intend was meaning CW especifically and exclusively, a CW stated taking away multiprocs from entity powers would result in a ~20% dps loss for CW and devs were very fast to reply to that.
It's relevant to one power in particular, BoVA. Pretty much only Soulbinders use that though and they don't really use proc enchantments because of Soul Scorch. Still, given it's already nerfed proc rate it doesn't make sense to nerf it even further.
The compensation for damage lost should also extend to SWs though, given what they did to Dreadtheft/BoVA.
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While I am glad to see them giving some compensation to the Temptation feat path for this DPS loss . They have never really done so for either the Fury or the Damnation feat paths that have also been hit with very large DPS lose as well in the past. This is why I would like to see Murderous Flames effect all Fire Damage 30% increase damage and perhaps Ghastly Commander effect all Necrotic Damage 30% increase damage. This would make Fury and Damnation both more rewarding to play as a Striker. Being that is the only role we get placed on a team as. So feel free to kick this idea around some more. Just dont wish to wait another 2 years before they decide to improve our primary job.
well at least start work the bugs but i wish know wich feats has been considerer tweked until now of fury, damanation and temptation special damnation and temptation i think are more unperformed
The best I can see so far are the MF/TC double-mitigation-fix and the FoE fix for offhand.
Idk what Tyrannical course is about to be after that fix...very curious and I hope it will work at all Doesn´t benefit from arp? Deals less damage than you deal towards a WC´d target (yes they disabled WC on TC´d targets). That was the purpose of that fix, TC is a debuff and WC a buff TC<WC. Can´t see the point how they are goig to fix that, except they will allow WC to work on those targets, wich is a simple logic. But what is logic about warlock...pointing again at curse consume, my best buff has to vanish to make some encounter work properly.
I don´t think the rework of procs will change anything, the devs do not want multiprocs on WE, definitely. If they nerf Lightning (CW) , the only class that will properly proc all those WE´s is the GWF, since that class procs everything with his at wills. All other will stick with Vorp, Fey because they simply do not use At Will that much. A simple misconcept of that rework in a hole.
I really hope our weapondamage procs get adressed and buffed significantly, since the class is allready punished so much from low proc rates of Critical promise Killing curse, same as Aura of courage from Pally since we apply DOT´s and use encounter most of the time.
Idea for killing flames- if target killed by killing flames-it creates a pool of fire where target dies-based on life percentage left translates into damage capable of doing. And base damage instead of changing with health left.
HELLBRINGER TEMPLOCK-DEMONEYE TR-SNE CW-ELIKIA-MOF T DC-BUFFY ON HEELZ-BUFF/DEBUFF GF-BAIT GWF-MEATHEAD HR-SPLIT NOCK XBOX ONE
Please consider reducing the amount of ticks of Creeping Death and/or the delay between, the latter is excessively long considering its 4 ticks, 0.3 secs between each tick sounds much better than the current 1.5 secs which is just too much considering how other classes can kill both trahs mobs and bosses so much faster, even in weaker groups, 4 ticks with a 1.5 secs delay between them is way too much, things will be dead before the capstone can do any meaningful damage.
Suggestion:
- Reduce the amount of ticks to 3 (down from 4) so each tick would deal 25% damage for the intended 75% procced from Creeping Death.
- Reduce the massive delay between ticks to 0.3 secs (down from... 1.5 secs!)
Comments
We have too many debuffs and dimishing returns in endgame groups reduce their effectivenes pretty badly, please consider changing a few of them to buffs.
Suggestions for Dreadteft:
- Change it to a buff (24% - 30%)
- No longer prevents you from casting other powers.
- Reduce cooldown by ~3 seconds
- Like Pillar of Power, make it so the moment you cast it, the cooldown starts, that should help it to have a better uptime.
Suggestions for Tyrannical Curse:
As it no longer benefits from things it shouldn't (mod 10.5 fix), please consider:
- Allow it to be cast without needing a target like it formely did.
- Give back the ability to Tyrannical curse 3 targets.
2) DR starts to hit very hard at 500% or so total.
3) It's actually very hard to hit those values unless everyone specifically slots debuff powers, many of which are single target and class/path specific.
4) The comment came with a suggested increase to SW encounter powers for various reasons, like how the CW counterpart power Disintegrate kind of screwed up the whole "my Killing Flames hits like a daily" thing the SW had going.
Wow you people see "debuff" and it's like a chain reaction with people running around like headless chickens.
afaik thats what the diminishing return curve looks like
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/k6dbonvo5y
and here is the thread the dev posted the changes:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231982/official-feedback-thread-m12-armor-pen-and-damage-vulnerability-debuff-changes/p1
so stop spreading BS there is neither a 200% nor a 300% softcap.
300% is the maximum you can reach with infinite debuffing powers.
@tyrtallow Do you have any other source for that 500% you mentioned?
ACtually, their post is a little misleading. 300% reads like 400% on ACT
My overall effectiveness did not went over 200% in a tong party so far (more like 192% +/-), that´s the price for pugging, even tough running Sellsword myself.
If I understood right @naoqueroforum your effectiveness shows up to 300% overall on ACT?
Warlock needs an overall buff towards dps, so any little help is welcome.
FoE classfeature get´s worse in a buffer party the higher the debuffs are, so the advantage drops off vs Soulbinder. Make it a buff, and by that fix the offhand bonus
Same would be welcome for Soulbinder , pointing at Burning Souls.
That power is a 30x0,3% buff, but tbh I do not get that buff running at max most of the time, so it´s only a 4.5% buff if at all.
This is an easy "tweak" @balanced#2849 , wich costs near no affords than switching few numbers.
"Your Soul Sparks now also increase your damage by .12/.24/.36/.48/.6% per Soul Spark. "
Leading to a max buff at 18% (wich is pretty hard to keep up), burning your sparks most of the time.
@bellkazi thx pointing at helltouched as a debuff, also a punished debuff in buffruns, same as unhandy doing trash
Or, if you're looking at max rank bonuses (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mtGzVOtdMt998qZz97odzeM4_FDQJWqKqLQOQK9Qgok/edit#gid=865304330), then Ice Knife has an ability coefficient of ~7.8 and Disintegrate has an ability coefficient of ~4.35.
Ice Knife hits twice as hard as Disintegrate.
Disintegrate makes up for it by being 5x as spammable (8 sec base cooldown, like wtf????).
Which class wouldn't want Disintegrate (or a thematic/palette swapped equivalent) in their arsenal? If you were allowed to stack unlimited debuffs, your effectiveness would show up as close to 400% (likely 390something% with debuff diminishing returns), since 100% effectiveness is normal (1.0x) damage, and the ~300% comes from the sum of all your debuff %.
So, in your T9G example, your team was placing debuffs summing up to ~90%, factoring debuff diminishing returns.
What I meant is that with infinite debuffs, you would reach the +300% max the devs announced when debuffs were changed on their post. But what you would see on an ACT log would be 400% if you somehow managed to get infinite debuffing (base 100% +300% from the debuffs). It is not possible of course. Hard enough to get even close to a 300% on ACT (+200% debuff).
I know this is a bit off topic now, but I started to wonder, and someone might already know the answer. It is about the coupling of Arpen with debuffs at really high debuff levels.
If you are at the RI cap, fine, no changes. But what happens when you are slightly below. Since the effectiveness from debuffs and arpen work in the same layer, being slightly below the arpen cap might not be as punishing if you are on a really high debuff group.
For example, if you are at 100% effectiveness at a boss that requires 85% RI and you drop to 80%RI, your effectiveness will drop to 95%. But what happens, at the same boss, when you are at 300% effectiveness and your RI goes from 85 to 80%. Would it drop to 295% or does it drop to 298.5% (roughly the change of an extra 5% debuff at that level of diminished returns)? The latter case makes not being at the RI cap way less debilitating than the former. Anyone tested this already?
But an average effectivenes of 300%, never saw that anywhere?
GWF is pretty good in selfdebuffing by WMS+DS, leading to average effect above 200% in my runs, depends on the class though. From my pov warlock will hardly get there.
Absolutely possible for SW to go beyond that. You just need to do your stuff correct and have a group doing their stuff correct.
You can just google neverwinter debuff changes for preliminary test data about the current way debuffs work, the results indicate that to even get near that 300% cap (there, happy?) you'll need 500%+ total debuff value.
Based on actual value/total debuff scaling, the actual softcap would be around the 230-250% or so with ~400% total debuff.
BTW from my old post that got removed by a mod for linking an inappropriate site, I maintain that since the devs are set on changing the multiple buff/debuff meta then there is room for growth for FoE and that the main reason people use HB in the first place is Infantile Compensation.
The removal of the post means that some of @schietindebux suggestions/replies to my post above now lack context.
You need a neer perfect setup, like above and lantern, black heart etc. to get there i guess.
I spoke of an average effectivness in that dungeon. I witnessed some above 200, but never 300%, at bossencounter I saw higher number, esp. Orcus, maybe you can show me that 300% some day, til then I simply disagree.
I simply misunderstood @naoqueroforum post above.
One question. How do you stack debuff for 584%, after deminishing returns leading to 246% debuff in a hole, ending in a 346% effectiveness from Brood?
My warlock achieves debuffs from FoE 15, Sellsword10, infernal wrath 5, Vorpal 2, PoP10 + 42% nothing else
My DC does PoD, plaguefire, DG towards the group. 12,5+17,5+3x3.5 trans+10% ByS + 15% CG=68,5% (at max if everything pops up same time)
So how 584% stacking debuffs at once? Your teammates must do the rest of 542% DR debuff?
lol, after doing some math myself I recognized that graph tom posted simply shows the result by clicking on it. If i understand it correctly, that 5.84(x100%) is the aplied debuff and the 2.4(x100%) is the effective result after DR?
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/k6dbonvo5y
The breakdown from the +~240% you get at 500% debuffing seems to be like this:
0% to 100% -> ~90% damage increase
100% to 200% -> ~37% damage increase
200% to 300% -> ~15%
300% to 400% -> ~8%
400% to 500% -> ~4%
So 1.9*1.37*1.15*.108*1.04 -> ~340% effectiveness you'd see on ACT. The last 100 adds quite a bit less than the first. It seems reasonable but I still think I need to hit preview a little bit with my friends and dummies to run some tests and make sure those numbers I found are close.
And @schietindebux , it is quite hard getting to 300% or above ACT eff. numbers. I'm checking a log I have of a 19min Tong run with an amazing TR and decent debuffs and his highest eff. value was 236. His 59m Shadow of demise hit was at 211% eff. The GF on the same run reached 255% maximum eff. I will check my other logs to see if I find any value above 300%, but I know it's quite hard to accomplish and not achievable with just any party setup.
Frankly the fact that the class doesn't have a lot of debuffs in the first place outside of Dreadtheft/FoE is one of the reasons why these debuffs stand out. SWs are basically in that sweet spot where it's not so debuff-dependent that it would be radically affected when the meta inevitably changes, as long as its core features/encounters/feats get the necessary damage buffs/damage scaling fixes (which pretty much everyone here already agrees it needs, including the balance dev). Like I said, this also means that there is room for feats like FoE to grow as better debuffs.
It's not exactly like these changes are coming in mod12b anyway, as much as we want them to.
Mocking Spirit already goes in this way and the mod 10 changes just increased Soul Puppet survivability.
So i suggest you change Ghastly Commander to works for the whole party and make Spiritfire recognized as the Soul Puppet damage (tricky change here, i know but you can also make every damage give her some threat instead).
Then you can change Burning Puppets to force any enemy attacked by the Soul Puppet to attack her for x seconds.
These are only some ideas but you can change lots of things here and i think it would be nice to see an useful Soul Puppet instead of a decorative sprite ! Actually, PoP is very nice as it is. It takes a little bit to know what to do with but we talked about interesting gameplay before in this threat. THIS is an interesting gameplay. Knowing where the mobs will spawn and predict where you have to be in your PoP is one of the most complicated but enjoying gameplay of the SW (unlike Tab spamming between each Soul Scorch, for example
No but for real, having a too large PoP would completely invalidate Soul Binder path since you wouldn't need to follow moving bosses anymore. For the character balance, it's not a good idea at all ! Problem with giving Combat Advantage is that we already have a class feature for this. No pity, no mercy already does it... better.
For stamina regen... Meh, sorry but nobody cares about that kind of buff... 5% on each hit is nice because it gives insane amounts of stamina back. Otherwise, it wouldn't be interesting !
And you don't want to give flat damage boost, okay (even if i still think this would be the perfect place for this) but my suggestion here is :
Revert back Eldritch Momentum like it was and add some cooldown reduction for the allies when casting a daily. (15% seems cool)
PS : @balanced#2849 Thanks for what you do for us. SW really needs some changes and i can't wait to see further changes like Murderous Flames one coming !
To inform the ones that did not take notice till now.
That´s a list from Darthzarr summing the upcoming fixes from Bugtober, said to happen in mod 12b and 13. Pretty nice stuff for our class includet.
Pretty curiuos how this may impact on actual class-balance, some changes i recognized would be a heavy boost, not only for warlock, some points are irritating somehow, talking about those WE procs from entity powers.
[fixed] Brood of Hadar (SW daily) doesn't proc Creeping Death
[details required] Gates of Hell (SW daily) doesn't proc Creeping Death
[details required] Many SW and HR offhand artifact class features don't work.
[fixed] Flames of Empowerment (SW class feature) offhand bonus doesn't work.
[fixed] Pillar of Power (SW encounter) cannot critically strike.
[fixed] Murderous Flame (SW feat) is double mitigated by level 73 monsters.
[fixed] Vampiric Embrace (SW encounter) doesn't give temp HP on curse consume.
info] Tyrannical Curse (SW daily) has some beneficial changes. Including bugfixes.
[fixed] Tyrannical Curse (SW daily) deals less damage to level 73 enemies.
[fixed] Tyrannical Curse (SW daily) causes an SW to deal less damage when used in single target.
[fixed] The re-activation of Wraith's Shadow (SW encounter) doesn't benefit from Warlock's Curse.
[fixed] Immolation of Spirits (SW daily) doesn't benefit from Warlock's Curse or Tyrannical Curse.
[fixed] Soul Scorch (SW encounter) only ticks 5 times instead of 6 causing it to do 5/6ths of its intended damage.
[fixed] Fiery Bolt (SW encounter) curse synergy is based off of the Warlock's target instead of the entity receiving the damage.
[fixed] Tyrannical Curse (SW daily) is double mitigated by higher level enemies.
[fixed] Tyrannical Curse (SW daily) doesn't properly benefit from armor penetration.
[info] Soul Scorch (SW encounter) should not have it's curse effect triggered by Tyrannical Curse.
[info] Brood of Hadar's Bite (SW daily secondary effect) is not supposed to be increased by Warlock's Curse.
[info] Several Scourge Warlock powers do not proc weapon enchantments. Looking into it.
[info] Entity powers shouldn't be proccing weapon enchantments on every tick.
[info] Any class that loses a significant portion of damage, should be compensated.
[fixed] Several Scourge Warlock powers do not proc weapon enchantments.
I'd need to check again but I'm pretty sure the developer who talked about compensation after the entity change they intend was meaning CW especifically and exclusively, a CW stated taking away multiprocs from entity powers would result in a ~20% dps loss for CW and devs were very fast to reply to that.
The compensation for damage lost should also extend to SWs though, given what they did to Dreadtheft/BoVA.
Idk what Tyrannical course is about to be after that fix...very curious and I hope it will work at all
Doesn´t benefit from arp?
Deals less damage than you deal towards a WC´d target (yes they disabled WC on TC´d targets). That was the purpose of that fix, TC is a debuff and WC a buff TC<WC.
Can´t see the point how they are goig to fix that, except they will allow WC to work on those targets, wich is a simple logic.
But what is logic about warlock...pointing again at curse consume, my best buff has to vanish to make some encounter work properly.
I don´t think the rework of procs will change anything, the devs do not want multiprocs on WE, definitely.
If they nerf Lightning (CW) , the only class that will properly proc all those WE´s is the GWF, since that class procs everything with his at wills. All other will stick with Vorp, Fey because they simply do not use At Will that much. A simple misconcept of that rework in a hole.
I really hope our weapondamage procs get adressed and buffed significantly, since the class is allready punished so much from low proc rates of Critical promise Killing curse, same as Aura of courage from Pally since we apply DOT´s and use encounter most of the time.
TR-SNE
CW-ELIKIA-MOF T
DC-BUFFY ON HEELZ-BUFF/DEBUFF
GF-BAIT
GWF-MEATHEAD
HR-SPLIT NOCK
XBOX ONE
I think TC was reported to be mititaged vs level 73 enemies and like you said, not benefitting from armor penetration, at least to some extent.
Please consider reducing the amount of ticks of Creeping Death and/or the delay between, the latter is excessively long considering its 4 ticks, 0.3 secs between each tick sounds much better than the current 1.5 secs which is just too much considering how other classes can kill both trahs mobs and bosses so much faster, even in weaker groups, 4 ticks with a 1.5 secs delay between them is way too much, things will be dead before the capstone can do any meaningful damage.
Suggestion:
- Reduce the amount of ticks to 3 (down from 4) so each tick would deal 25% damage for the intended 75% procced from Creeping Death.
- Reduce the massive delay between ticks to 0.3 secs (down from... 1.5 secs!)