before you fix double dc's

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Comments

  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    micky1p00 said:


    Without any power sharing I get 30K from my companion, I'm on console by the way, and I'm far from having BiS for companion enchantments. The difference from me having around 60K in total power to 300K in power is around 600% (give or take) more in damage. Now, this is using the very basic formula of 400 in power equals 1% increase in damage.

    1. 300 of 60 is exactly 500% not even give or take. Or an increase of 400%
    2. If you have 60k power, buffing it up to 300k (hence adding 240k power) will net you an increase of 240.22% damage.

    (edit was in 2, calculated for 30k base, but it should be for 60k base)
    Math aside, the devs need to do something about power sharing.

    For instance, going from getting a total of around 75K in power with a 50K base Power Sharing AC DC to around 35K would be a better way alternative to adjusting the game.

    When I started off and saw what bonding were, I'm like OMG, this is going to be crazy good come end game. No surprise I was right. I should have really focused on getting bonding up to R12 but I was still learning the game and its mechanics.
    No, you posted an entire thread about how people with 60k people are evil, and bonding should be removed from the game. And argued to no end about it. But that's history, and not relevant.

    Math not aside, tell me please:
    1. The damage increase from buff or debuffs that the non power share provides. MoF ? DO DC ? etc...
    2. The damage increase of the numbers you suggest.
    3. The base power an AC DC needs to have to reach that 240k power buff (sure we can remove other sources, but except OP i don't remember any other significant source, but yes take that into account), and the needed power to match those from point 1.

    Lets talk numbers, because throwing up "make it share 35k" has a meaning, and lets not throw just eye balled numbers in the air...

    I'm do not mean to offend, but I'll be blunt, your earlier comment of 600% damage which is actually 240% shows you don't understand yet the mechanics, but suggest arbitrary numbers to which a class or mechanic should be nerfed into.
    Please don't. Big numbers doesn't mean lack of balance, big numbers only mean big numbers. Balance is "compared to something"
    If you want to suggest a change, please at least make it somewhat based on something, and not because it fells X or Y, or you see numbers Z.

    ----
    side note, I'm not saying that power buff shouldn't be changed, or changed. I'm just saying that a lot of people mislead, some on purpose, some by honest mistake, and we should at least be careful and try not to mislead.
    I did state that I used the base of 400 power = 1% increase in damage.

    Going from 60K to 300K is a 600% increase when using very basic 2nd grade math skill. At 60K I have 150% increase and at 300K it is 750% and if you subtract 750% from 150% you do get 600%. I know that is very basic and not 100% accurate, but the point I was making is that the increase is pretty significant. And 240% increase in damage, as you pointed out, just from 1 type of buff, power sharing, is pretty significant and definitely may need some adjusting.

    Also, that was a full buffing group coming from all characters sharing their power. It was not by a single AC/DC, but a group of players.

    I have seen this in more than one MMO game when it comes to fixes/adjustments. The reality is, all changes that happen in this game is not because 1 person post something on the forums. The bonding changes that occurred, regardless if I created that thread or not, was probably in their plans and it was just a matter of time before it was adjusted. The same can be said for any type of buff, debuff, power sharing, etc.. that we have in this game. If there is an issue, or believed issue by the development team, an adjustment to that issue is bound to happen.

    Only once things get so bad does a game go through a full revamp due to uncertainty, complexity, complaints, etc...

    For me as a player that has experience full game revamp in other games; this game is screaming give me a full blown revamp of the game and its mechanics from the ground up.
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Yes, except it wont be 600% increase in damage. But never mind, about single type of buff, ok, so go with this we can split all the damage increase into 3 main groups:

    1. Buff (damage buffs)
    2. Debuffs
    3. Power / stat share.

    In a now regular (meta inclined ) group, we can count something like:

    1. Exaltation 1.12, EFF 1.15, divine glow 1.12, HG 1.4, Insight 1.2, bts 1.3, ITF 1.3 (2DC, 1 GF no power share) Total: 4.09 Lets round down to x4, so 300% increase.

    2. Sins 10%, Condemned 15%, Glow 17%, Doom 12%, Bitter cold 5%, swath 20%, Combustive 24% rey of enfeeblement 35%, + sellswords etc, should be 40% total: 178% pre diminished return and around 140% post.

    3. Though I think 240k power is a bit high, but lets roll with that example anyway. Also to note that your example is pre 12b.
    At 12b you wont get those numbers, IMO it is be something like 150% or lower but it remains to be seen with r14.. (or calculated, but I don't have the energy)

    So we have 300% damage increase from buffs, 240% (damage not power), and something around 140% debuff
    Or assumed 12b ish, unless someone has corrections here. 300%, 150%, 140%

    So I'll just leave the numbers here, and let them speak.

    ---

    I didn't say you were the cause, and not intended to imply such thing. When the bonding change was introduced to it's last incarnation plenty players warned about the ramifications. We were listened as usual... /s

    (Edit: x4 is 300% increase)
    Post edited by micky1p00 on
  • greyjay1
    greyjay1 Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    Turn the 400% buff multiplier into a 300% increase, but your point stands :P
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    greyjay1 said:

    Turn the 400% buff multiplier into a 300% increase, but your point stands :P

    Oops, thanks. That what happens when I try to count to more than 10 in the middle of the night.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    dupeks said:

    Going from 60K to 300K is a 600% increase when using very basic 2nd grade math skill. At 60K I have 150% increase and at 300K it is 750% and if you subtract 750% from 150% you do get 600%. I know that is very basic and not 100% accurate, but the point I was making is

    ... that using multiple different meanings for % in one sentence makes it impossible to understand what's going on.

    I spy with my magic mathematical eye, some confusing calculations:
    1. 400 power = 1% damage increase over a theoretical 0-power base damage. Let's call this "% over base"
    2. (new % over base) - (old % over base) = Percentage Point Increase. Let's call this "PP increase".
    3. (PP increase) / (old % over base) = Actual % increase to damage. This number actually matters when comparing damage contributions.
    That middle one (PP increase) yields a scary large number, but is misleading / not generally meaningful for comparing damage contribution to other sources of damage. Hee hee.

    As a long-time DC player with an end-game optimized power-share DC build: power-sharing took a significant hit in 12B (especially since most folks haven't brought up all their bondings yet). My DO loadout ends up being flat-out better in most groups, unless I'm running with BiS DPS or a second DC.

    Not saying that things shouldn't be retooled (I think that quite a few things should) but the answer is nowhere near as cut-and-dry as "nerf power share because it's the biggest contributor to power imbalance".
    I'm not saying nerf power sharing. I have been saying Neverwinter needs a full game revamp. All classes need to be adjusted, augment vs bonding companions need to be tweaked (may not as much now), buffs, debuffs, powersharing, content, campaigns, life steal, and other things need to be adjusted. Power sharing is one of many issues within this game that needs to be adjusted.

    Full game revamp would be the way to do one big sweep and fix all the issues that we have in the game. It would allow the devs to evolve the game and improve it beyond where it is today.

    The problem with such a move is resources and community out crying of being NERFED.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    dupeks said:

    Going from 60K to 300K is a 600% increase when using very basic 2nd grade math skill. At 60K I have 150% increase and at 300K it is 750% and if you subtract 750% from 150% you do get 600%. I know that is very basic and not 100% accurate, but the point I was making is

    ... that using multiple different meanings for % in one sentence makes it impossible to understand what's going on.

    I spy with my magic mathematical eye, some confusing calculations:
    1. 400 power = 1% damage increase over a theoretical 0-power base damage. Let's call this "% over base"
    2. (new % over base) - (old % over base) = Percentage Point Increase. Let's call this "PP increase".
    3. (PP increase) / (old % over base) = Actual % increase to damage. This number actually matters when comparing damage contributions.
    That middle one (PP increase) yields a scary large number, but is misleading / not generally meaningful for comparing damage contribution to other sources of damage. Hee hee.

    As a long-time DC player with an end-game optimized power-share DC build: power-sharing took a significant hit in 12B (especially since most folks haven't brought up all their bondings yet). My DO loadout ends up being flat-out better in most groups, unless I'm running with BiS DPS or a second DC.

    Not saying that things shouldn't be retooled (I think that quite a few things should) but the answer is nowhere near as cut-and-dry as "nerf power share because it's the biggest contributor to power imbalance".
    I'm not saying nerf power sharing. I have been saying Neverwinter needs a full game revamp. All classes need to be adjusted, augment vs bonding companions need to be tweaked (may not as much now), buffs, debuffs, powersharing, content, campaigns, life steal, and other things need to be adjusted. Power sharing is one of many issues within this game that needs to be adjusted.

    Full game revamp would be the way to do one big sweep and fix all the issues that we have in the game. It would allow the devs to evolve the game and improve it beyond where it is today.

    The problem with such a move is resources and community out crying of being NERFED.
    Can't disagree with this, I guess we all want a complete rework. But realistically speaking, what you listed is more like a full game rewrite in terms of mechanics, and the studio just can't handle it.
    And with the rate of half modules, it will take long time to solve per-issue. So I wouldn't count on it, no matter how much anyone want this.

    From expiriance, Cryptic is slow to adapt and adjust, and usually when it does, they usually overshoot. Causing very heavy handed shakes to class balance, the economy, and player interactions.

    The famous "We will monitor the situation..". There is a feeling that while they plan ahead the content 2-3 mods, there is some lack of long term 'cause -> effect' view on evolving situation. And lack of quick adjustments. The reaction is to late, and is to strong, instead of on time gentle adjustments.
    Keys, bondings, augments devalue, RP system, professions, etc..

    Why all this wall of text is remotely relevant?

    Because suggesting, buffs, nerfs, changes, especially core mechanics changes are 'irreversible' in practice. There is community 'outcry' or some other reason, there is a very strong change, and then there wont be adjustments for many mods.
    If for example DC is reworked to have less gain from two DCs in a party, will not suddenly adjust the Ultimate stones in Tong.

    A change to power share may not come with adequate change to AC DC, and it will be huge fun for players who invested a lot into their chars.

    Bottom line, I'm not saying that change is bad, on the contrary, just saying that from expiriance, people should tread carefully with the request, imo, no blanket request for "nerf power share" nerf buffs, or what not, only very specific and careful adjustments, otherwise:

    "be careful what you wish for, it might just come true"

    And we will all regret this, for many many mods.
    I heard the same thing with DCUO. That game did a full on revamp and it launched earlier this year. Most players thought it would be a simple tweak to make things more balanced but the devs ended up doing way more than anyone originally thought or hoped. They ended up making it so players could not blow things up easily. Content where mechanics were simply ignored now had to be completed.

    Neverwinter is headed down a similar road but the devs seem to be a bit more ontop of it. Though, the Bonding stone took time to adjust. Power sharing was adjusted a year ago. I remember clerics were able to share off each other and through their bonding really boosting stats up like mad; the devs were able to get that under control.

    The game is better now than it was a year ago but there are still tweaks that can be done and even after those tweaks, there will be additional ones to work on as well. Might as well go broke and do it right and revamp the game instead of making minor adjustments here and there and hope you don't break something along the way.

    If they go full revamp or continue down the path of minor adjustments, I do hope that the devs adjust all classes so that paragon paths determine the role into dungeon Qs and adjust feats as needed. Maybe even add Controller as a support role that is focused on the group buffing and debuffing.
  • putzboy78
    putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,944 Arc User
    There is no vision. The game doesn't have developers it has programmers working on projects. There is a huge distinction between the two because game developers are supposed to keep an eye on the future of the game and ensure changes align to that future. Any monkey can change a damage multiplier from 1.3 to 1.25 but a game developer should have a vision on impacts and relationships.

  • slyef#6396
    slyef#6396 Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    **** Warning Incoming wall of text *****

    While it's apparent that DCs are one of the best buffers of the game (% damage + power share + hastening light), and 2 parangons that synergize well, I also want to point out something else.
    They also bring top-tier protection in the game (especially AC). Remember, dead toons can't dps.

    - Spammable CC Immunity + 20% of max health FLAT damage reduction (You know ? the reason AS got nerfed) for 4 hits
    -~50 % single target damage debuff (Bts+ divine DG)
    -55 % damage resistance (DG + AS + Have Faith)

    Even More resistance with high power share + sheperd's devotion (even 80k with bondings nets 4k def, which is 10% more resist), Oh, and anyone checked if it stacked with other sources ? (I don't know, really)
    Good AC DC should have near permanent uptime on those (at the expense of not having 3 stacks on emp bts maybe), which can be hard to execute in some situations, I know (and i'm terrible at it).


    Now take a boss that everyone fears for his damage, let's say OG Orcus who can hit with 700k.
    And he'll have the chance to play whack-a-mole with a 120k HP/25% DR toon

    His damage reduced by 50% -> 350k
    toon bumpded to DR cap -> 70 k
    AA Flat damage reduction -> 46k

    Now if you have an OP using bane on top of that he'd be hitting for 25k.



    This gets stupid in tank & spank situations (Orcus is one of the worst offenders), and may just lead people to downright ignore some mecanics, such as the classicDon't stand in a red area


    The thing that I want to point out that if DCs got it's spells up when it matters, most bosses will barely scratch me. If they fail though I'll probably get one shot. I still remember that as DC (with extra protection from the tank) I can stand still in fire in ECC without caring (But it's outdated content, so it shouldn't really matter).

    While this mechanic is still too binary, I think we should credit the devs for making fights a little more challenging in this regard (When you're NOT just going for a boss burn). Namely.

      Making big HAMSTER arenas with people splitting. (Mostly Kabal, Nostura, Ras Nsi, should be the case with Withers too, but I've never seen anyone doing the intenteded mechanics).

    • Dots or hits in quick succession to break AA (Withers)
    - Making some attacks ignore CC immunity
    - Having to move, since managing both uptime and movement can be a challenge sometimes.
    - Boss immune to damage reduction and/or piercing (Drufi ult, maybe Ras Nsi Ult, And Maybe Withers in his DJ platform since he's not the one hitting you ? too lazy to test)
    - Damage resistance decrease or whatever it is as I have no idea how it works (Ras Nsi, withers to a lesser extend)
    - Small fight breaks (Who never got chuncked when Ras Nsi does his circular slash after tilting the platform ? DC have to work to make sure it doesn't happen since we don't bother dodging, I've even seen some clever DO DC save divine armor for this moment).
    - Lag so they cannot pull off their rotation (Yes this is intended :p )

    Sadly partial paralysis makes an AC DC clutch (Still doable without it though).
    Even if it's arguable that it's too strong, I like what it is able to accomplish in synergy with other support toons.

    DC is the most support oriented class, which means that they unsurprisingly end up having a better kit than most other classes when it comes to support (AKA, Buff the support tree of other classes maybe, don't know much about MoF, but Templock's is pretty terrible atm, still waiting for m13).

    I think it is a great thing that this class is allowed to have 2 good parangons, one who is more noob friendly / gives more freedom. But as most people said, the underlying problem is that the meta revolves around stacking as much buffs as possible and people are too obsessed with it.


    Edit : trying to figure out how to make it decent looking
  • chiennedeluxe
    chiennedeluxe Member Posts: 111 Arc User

    **** Warning Incoming wall of text *****

    But as most people said, the underlying problem is that the meta revolves around stacking as much buffs as possible and people are too obsessed with it.


    agree
    Papa Smurf / Uncle Ben --DC
    Santa Claus --GF
    Gargamel --CW
  • niadan
    niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    Homestly I think they should just boost DCs so that one can reach the debuff cap alone.
  • superent666
    superent666 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    @putzboy on powersharing: obviously our discussion on the topic is pointless...it´s like someone (you) saying the flying
    spaghetti monster exists and I´m trying to disprove that...^^ It´s a definite no can do sadly... :D

    I really wouldn´t give a flying hamster if people made rational suggestions for changing powersharing. I mean...as it is
    right now in mod 12b it really seems to be not in a good place. As long as the analysis of the problem(s) as well as proposed solutions are backed up by something more than thin air. It proabably doesn´t make any difference anyways with regards to what the devs will or won´t do but still...
  • chiennedeluxe
    chiennedeluxe Member Posts: 111 Arc User

    @putzboy on powersharing: obviously our discussion on the topic is pointless...it´s like someone (you) saying the flying
    spaghetti monster exists and I´m trying to disprove that...^^ It´s a definite no can do sadly... :D

    I really wouldn´t give a flying hamster if people made rational suggestions for changing powersharing. I mean...as it is
    right now in mod 12b it really seems to be not in a good place. As long as the analysis of the problem(s) as well as proposed solutions are backed up by something more than thin air. It proabably doesn´t make any difference anyways with regards to what the devs will or won´t do but still...


    Pastafarianism church ftw.



    Papa Smurf / Uncle Ben --DC
    Santa Claus --GF
    Gargamel --CW
  • onlymat
    onlymat Member Posts: 322 Arc User

    **** Warning Incoming wall of text *****

    While it's apparent that DCs are one of the best buffers of the game (% damage + power share + hastening light), and 2 parangons that synergize well, I also want to point out something else.
    They also bring top-tier protection in the game (especially AC). Remember, dead toons can't dps.

    - Spammable CC Immunity + 20% of max health FLAT damage reduction (You know ? the reason AS got nerfed) for 4 hits
    -~50 % single target damage debuff (Bts+ divine DG)
    -55 % damage resistance (DG + AS + Have Faith)

    Even More resistance with high power share + sheperd's devotion (even 80k with bondings nets 4k def, which is 10% more resist), Oh, and anyone checked if it stacked with other sources ? (I don't know, really)
    Good AC DC should have near permanent uptime on those (at the expense of not having 3 stacks on emp bts maybe), which can be hard to execute in some situations, I know (and i'm terrible at it).


    Now take a boss that everyone fears for his damage, let's say OG Orcus who can hit with 700k.
    And he'll have the chance to play whack-a-mole with a 120k HP/25% DR toon

    His damage reduced by 50% -> 350k
    toon bumpded to DR cap -> 70 k
    AA Flat damage reduction -> 46k

    Now if you have an OP using bane on top of that he'd be hitting for 25k.



    This gets stupid in tank & spank situations (Orcus is one of the worst offenders), and may just lead people to downright ignore some mecanics, such as the classicDon't stand in a red area


    The thing that I want to point out that if DCs got it's spells up when it matters, most bosses will barely scratch me. If they fail though I'll probably get one shot. I still remember that as DC (with extra protection from the tank) I can stand still in fire in ECC without caring (But it's outdated content, so it shouldn't really matter).

    While this mechanic is still too binary, I think we should credit the devs for making fights a little more challenging in this regard (When you're NOT just going for a boss burn). Namely.


      Making big HAMSTER arenas with people splitting. (Mostly Kabal, Nostura, Ras Nsi, should be the case with Withers too, but I've never seen anyone doing the intenteded mechanics).

    • Dots or hits in quick succession to break AA (Withers)
    - Making some attacks ignore CC immunity
    - Having to move, since managing both uptime and movement can be a challenge sometimes.
    - Boss immune to damage reduction and/or piercing (Drufi ult, maybe Ras Nsi Ult, And Maybe Withers in his DJ platform since he's not the one hitting you ? too lazy to test)
    - Damage resistance decrease or whatever it is as I have no idea how it works (Ras Nsi, withers to a lesser extend)
    - Small fight breaks (Who never got chuncked when Ras Nsi does his circular slash after tilting the platform ? DC have to work to make sure it doesn't happen since we don't bother dodging, I've even seen some clever DO DC save divine armor for this moment).
    - Lag so they cannot pull off their rotation (Yes this is intended :p )

    Sadly partial paralysis makes an AC DC clutch (Still doable without it though).
    Even if it's arguable that it's too strong, I like what it is able to accomplish in synergy with other support toons.

    DC is the most support oriented class, which means that they unsurprisingly end up having a better kit than most other classes when it comes to support (AKA, Buff the support tree of other classes maybe, don't know much about MoF, but Templock's is pretty terrible atm, still waiting for m13).

    I think it is a great thing that this class is allowed to have 2 good parangons, one who is more noob friendly / gives more freedom. But as most people said, the underlying problem is that the meta revolves around stacking as much buffs as possible and people are too obsessed with it.


    Edit : trying to figure out how to make it decent looking
    you write: Spammable CC Immunity

    and you are correct - the Protection of AC can't be done by a DO. If 2 DC's can't go into a dungeon we are back to lf AC DC ONLY! The Protection Part of AA is TOO good and thats the whole reason AC DC ist better than DO!

    I play a DO and I'm on 15,3k atm I can do everything and with insignia also protect the group - but I fail if I'm the only DC at the last boss of to9g because we get all perma stunned until dead.
  • onlymat
    onlymat Member Posts: 322 Arc User

    micky1p00 said:

    dupeks said:

    Going from 60K to 300K is a 600% increase when using very basic 2nd grade math skill. At 60K I have 150% increase and at 300K it is 750% and if you subtract 750% from 150% you do get 600%. I know that is very basic and not 100% accurate, but the point I was making is

    ... that using multiple different meanings for % in one sentence makes it impossible to understand what's going on.

    I spy with my magic mathematical eye, some confusing calculations:
    1. 400 power = 1% damage increase over a theoretical 0-power base damage. Let's call this "% over base"
    2. (new % over base) - (old % over base) = Percentage Point Increase. Let's call this "PP increase".
    3. (PP increase) / (old % over base) = Actual % increase to damage. This number actually matters when comparing damage contributions.
    That middle one (PP increase) yields a scary large number, but is misleading / not generally meaningful for comparing damage contribution to other sources of damage. Hee hee.

    As a long-time DC player with an end-game optimized power-share DC build: power-sharing took a significant hit in 12B (especially since most folks haven't brought up all their bondings yet). My DO loadout ends up being flat-out better in most groups, unless I'm running with BiS DPS or a second DC.

    Not saying that things shouldn't be retooled (I think that quite a few things should) but the answer is nowhere near as cut-and-dry as "nerf power share because it's the biggest contributor to power imbalance".
    I'm not saying nerf power sharing. I have been saying Neverwinter needs a full game revamp. All classes need to be adjusted, augment vs bonding companions need to be tweaked (may not as much now), buffs, debuffs, powersharing, content, campaigns, life steal, and other things need to be adjusted. Power sharing is one of many issues within this game that needs to be adjusted.

    Full game revamp would be the way to do one big sweep and fix all the issues that we have in the game. It would allow the devs to evolve the game and improve it beyond where it is today.

    The problem with such a move is resources and community out crying of being NERFED.
    Can't disagree with this, I guess we all want a complete rework. But realistically speaking, what you listed is more like a full game rewrite in terms of mechanics, and the studio just can't handle it.
    And with the rate of half modules, it will take long time to solve per-issue. So I wouldn't count on it, no matter how much anyone want this.

    From expiriance, Cryptic is slow to adapt and adjust, and usually when it does, they usually overshoot. Causing very heavy handed shakes to class balance, the economy, and player interactions.

    The famous "We will monitor the situation..". There is a feeling that while they plan ahead the content 2-3 mods, there is some lack of long term 'cause -> effect' view on evolving situation. And lack of quick adjustments. The reaction is to late, and is to strong, instead of on time gentle adjustments.
    Keys, bondings, augments devalue, RP system, professions, etc..

    Why all this wall of text is remotely relevant?

    Because suggesting, buffs, nerfs, changes, especially core mechanics changes are 'irreversible' in practice. There is community 'outcry' or some other reason, there is a very strong change, and then there wont be adjustments for many mods.
    If for example DC is reworked to have less gain from two DCs in a party, will not suddenly adjust the Ultimate stones in Tong.

    A change to power share may not come with adequate change to AC DC, and it will be huge fun for players who invested a lot into their chars.

    Bottom line, I'm not saying that change is bad, on the contrary, just saying that from expiriance, people should tread carefully with the request, imo, no blanket request for "nerf power share" nerf buffs, or what not, only very specific and careful adjustments, otherwise:

    "be careful what you wish for, it might just come true"

    And we will all regret this, for many many mods.
    I heard the same thing with DCUO. That game did a full on revamp and it launched earlier this year. Most players thought it would be a simple tweak to make things more balanced but the devs ended up doing way more than anyone originally thought or hoped. They ended up making it so players could not blow things up easily. Content where mechanics were simply ignored now had to be completed.

    Neverwinter is headed down a similar road but the devs seem to be a bit more ontop of it. Though, the Bonding stone took time to adjust. Power sharing was adjusted a year ago. I remember clerics were able to share off each other and through their bonding really boosting stats up like mad; the devs were able to get that under control.

    The game is better now than it was a year ago but there are still tweaks that can be done and even after those tweaks, there will be additional ones to work on as well. Might as well go broke and do it right and revamp the game instead of making minor adjustments here and there and hope you don't break something along the way.

    If they go full revamp or continue down the path of minor adjustments, I do hope that the devs adjust all classes so that paragon paths determine the role into dungeon Qs and adjust feats as needed. Maybe even add Controller as a support role that is focused on the group buffing and debuffing.
    have you played to9g with an DO DC only?
  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,419 Arc User
    Discounting Anointed Army, the DC is one of three classes, alongside HR and CW, that cannot simply clear Partial Paralysis* on their own. While I prefer to go AC there is sole DC, it is not required to beat the boss.

    * Unstoppable, Block, Duelist's Flurry and ITC, Shadow Slip all remove it instantly. I though Sanctuary did not, but further testing seems to indicate that it works but requires a PP proc during the Sanctuary, unlike block which is instant in removing it.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • putzboy78
    putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,944 Arc User
    PP is HAMSTER, DC is so rotation depended and PP throws it totally out the window
  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,419 Arc User
    It is a bad idea and worse implementation. You can theoretically avoid it but it suffers the same issue as Baphomet's Wall of Stone. Even though you might get out of the way in time, the server doesn't recognize this due to latency and it ignores your immunity frames, meaning it is more or less luck based. Bonus points because you have to dodge to the boss, and risk getting 1 shot. And then that 3/8ths of the classes are mostly immune. Not one of Cryptic's better ideas.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • hypervoreian
    hypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1229314/terrifying-insight-who-moved-my-cheese/p1

    "how representative do you think a 2 dc group is, when PUG's always have one dc at max?"
    "I am curious where the legions of clerics aneeded to double the number in a party are going to come from?"
    "There is nothing in your post that would help the devs understand what is going on. Doesn't sound like you know either.
    It's a hey I want attention post, with nothing to look at. Great job. Why bother."

    "I don't see anything wrong with DO"
    "Sorry again Dread, but this is only the final proof that you are missing something."
    "i feel this thread IS a nerf thread"
    "A good group will notice a slight clearspeed increase with DO+AC after these changes hit, but it is not massive'



    Well.....I strogly suggest everyone to revisit that thread.
    It is not unrelated to current discussion.
    People have seen from day one that 2 DCs would be the norm ,yet they were attacked.
    it was not nuclear science.

    Nothing personal with anyone there.And dread is not my friend or what ever.But the guy was correct from the start.Kudos to him :)
    Post edited by hypervoreian on
  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,419 Arc User
    Well I don't think my statement "legions' was inaccurate, just that people are willing to sit and wait for long periods just to get both DCs and to cancel the run if they can't get them. If I was wrong, it was in underestimating people's persistence. Of course back in March, there wasn't an end game dungeon that challenged even high gear parties and was worth speed farming.

    I remember this situation being predicted in the Preview thread and again, felt it wouldn't be an issue for the same reasons.

    I have seen people dust off their DC alts but otherwise there has hasn't been a large influx of new DC mains that I've seen.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • hypervoreian
    hypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Pit is not personal or an attack to anyone.
    It is just that the OP -dreadmoor i think- feeled that soon 2 Dcs would be the norm.
    Dc community thought otherwise.
    to be more accurate,Dc community debated if Do or AC was better: few have seen that in the end the optimal thing was to take one of each paragon-tree.

    Just i wanted to say,months later,that dread was correct.
    And that thread now is heavily cleaned: mods have intervened in that thread noumerous times.
    it was way worse.Just i think the guy deserves some recognition at least.These from me,nothing more:)
  • putzboy78
    putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,944 Arc User
    and even then, back in March, I pointed out how killing the GF/DO synergy had killed DO and led to the TI rework to make DO viable.

    Still as I've said before, that willingness to spend a half hour making a party with 2 DCs is based on the rewards vs effort ratio. If Hero's Accord was worth the effort, people would queue with one tank and one healer and complete TONG. Instead if your not going to bother with Hero's Accord, you may as well go with the meta.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    putzboy78 said:

    that meta wouldn't work if damage potential from 2 dps exceeded that of one additional buff/debuffer. The issue isn't 2 dc anyhow, really what's being discussed is the issue is 4 support 1 dps. the only reason people are specifying dc as the issue is because there is 2 of the same class and its the hardest roles to fill.

    It's ironic to me how there is so much vitriol toward dc like we are privileged and yet no one plays them. But when GF suddenly becomes a top dps candidate the entire server migrates to them likes flies on HAMSTER. Basically no one wants to play support, everyone wants to DPS, and a change to DC isn't going to change a 4 support meta. Maybe the new meta would be HR, GF, OP, DC, or CW, GF, OP, DC, but at the end of the day we will still be wrapping 4 supports around one dps and those people upset they aren't getting burn time because there's only one dps in the group and everyone wants a 16K GWF are still left out

    Remove private Q and now you cannot run two DC or two tanks. No more of the current meta. Instead you will have to fill the void of the 3rd and 4th DPS class with a class that can buff the group such as a Templock, MoF CW, HR, etc...A DPS class that is also a buffer.

    What I like doing is sitting back and reading LFG...looking for 2nd DC for FBI, MSPC, MSVA, etc... it fun watching all the LFG shouts for a 2nd DC.

    One day I sent a tell on my DC to the player calling out for a 2nd DC. My reply to them was, you seem to be calling out daily for a 2nd DC. Maybe that is a sign for you to play a DC.

    This game, like many MMOs, have more DPS players, even when a player picks a support class, many prefer to play as a DPS.




  • putzboy78
    putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,944 Arc User


    Remove private Q and now you cannot run two DC or two tanks. No more of the current meta.

    Then you can't run with your friends anymore either. Removing private queue is not the answer, adjusting rewards is the answer. I routinely take whoever answers my calls for party regardless of class or ilvl, i don't want further limitations to this. Many of my friends are dcs, the dc_channel does all dc runs, there is no reason to take away this social aspect of the game.

    fill the void of the 3rd and 4th DPS class with a class that can buff the group such as a Templock, MoF CW, HR, etc...A DPS class that is also a buffer.

    That doesn't resolve the issue. CWs don't want to run MoF, HR's don't want to spam longstrider, sw's don't want to heal. This does not fix the issue that 60% of the population wants to be a dps while 40% want to be support. You can force cws into the party, you can't force them to be MOFs and if they won't be MOFs they are still sitting in PE looking for lfg calls and bitching noone will play with them.




  • dony2629#8239
    dony2629#8239 Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    Double dc needs no fixing , everyone bitching about it will regret it if they do anything to then , 13-14k dps will not be able to pass fbi if not for the dc buffs .left's not change it for a few cry babies or it will end up hurting lower geared people more than anyone
  • onlymat
    onlymat Member Posts: 322 Arc User

    Double dc needs no fixing , everyone bitching about it will regret it if they do anything to then , 13-14k dps will not be able to pass fbi if not for the dc buffs .left's not change it for a few cry babies or it will end up hurting lower geared people more than anyone

    you are right :)
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    putzboy78 said:



    That doesn't resolve the issue. CWs don't want to run MoF, HR's don't want to spam longstrider, sw's don't want to heal. This does not fix the issue that 60% of the population wants to be a dps while 40% want to be support. You can force cws into the party, you can't force them to be MOFs and if they won't be MOFs they are still sitting in PE looking for lfg calls and bitching noone will play with them.

    SW not wanting to run healer...Are you sure about that? I know a few SW that only run as Templock and nothing else. In fact I just got my SW to 70 last night and he is a temp lock himself and only a Templock.

    Just like CW, I run only MoF builds and even my Thaum build now runs CC and Swath simply to boost the group damage.

    There is always more than one way to play a character and many assume all SW, CW, and HR only want to be DPS. That is like assuming that all GF want to play as a tank.

    I was on my GF and my friend formed a group and all we needed was 3 DPS and you know what we got. 3 GF all as DPS. So, please tell me how those players feel if they were told, nope you are a tank.

    The issue here is the Q system. Now if the devs updated the game and allowed DCs, and GF to play as DPS than that would open up the game a bit more. SW should be considered healers and CW should be considered a buffer.

    The game needs another role and the devs need to expand all classes so we can all play two various roles and actually play them through all content. GWF as tanks and can be played as tanks in TONG. That is what I am talking about and have even created a thread on this topic.

    If the devs did this, removal of private Q would not be as big of a problem.
  • almondum
    almondum Member Posts: 308 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    putzboy78 said:


    Remove private Q and now you cannot run two DC or two tanks. No more of the current meta.

    Then you can't run with your friends anymore either. Removing private queue is not the answer, adjusting rewards is the answer. I routinely take whoever answers my calls for party regardless of class or ilvl, i don't want further limitations to this. Many of my friends are dcs, the dc_channel does all dc runs, there is no reason to take away this social aspect of the game.

    fill the void of the 3rd and 4th DPS class with a class that can buff the group such as a Templock, MoF CW, HR, etc...A DPS class that is also a buffer.

    That doesn't resolve the issue. CWs don't want to run MoF, HR's don't want to spam longstrider, sw's don't want to heal. This does not fix the issue that 60% of the population wants to be a dps while 40% want to be support. You can force cws into the party, you can't force them to be MOFs and if they won't be MOFs they are still sitting in PE looking for lfg calls and bitching noone will play with them.




    I agree with @putzboy78 . Leave private queue alone, playing with my friends/guldies is a paramount aspect of the game. Right now, it's one of the few reasons that keeps making me come back to NWO. Take that away and many people might lose motivation to play the game, at least part of it.

    Everyone (majority) wants to do the highest damage/play offensive. There are less people who want to do support. This is intrinsic to human nature, we are competitive species, most of us want to be "the best", "the biggest one", "the most famous one", etc. It's normal.
    So putz is right, not many people want to heal or dps, so forcing people into being what they "should be" won't solve anything, it will just make people look for better shores.

    edit: typos :/
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