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before you fix double dc's

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  • preechr#2215 preechr Posts: 488Member Arc User



    All they ever needed to do was stop companion's gift from passing on buffed stats... it was just that simple

    But they wouldn't/couldn't do that and so now we have to ride the nerf train until I guess we all decide for ourselves when its time to jump off

    Alright...so powersharing was perceived as a problem by the devs (even though there was absolutely nothing wrong with it but ok)...and because they are so mean and unreasonable in order to solve that problem they nerfed everyones bondings instead of leaving them alone and addressing the root of the problem directly...the powersharing dc. All that was ever needed was to stop companion´s gift from passing on buffed stats....so simple.
    Because if an AC DC with 50k base power shares 29k power to party members that would be an appropriate number....no more problems...no further nerfs to be feared. Right?
    Is this sarcasm? Hard to tell in text...

    If an AC has 50k base power and 20k recovery, they have pretty much dedicated all they've got to buffing their team members' power in addition to the %damage bonuses, haste, etc... and yes, for a buffing class build that is indeed buffing

    This is where its difficult for me to tell what you are trying to say with your post.... Are trying to say ACs buff too much?

    If so why wouldn't you just say that and be done with it?

  • superent666superent666 Posts: 133Member Arc User



    All they ever needed to do was stop companion's gift from passing on buffed stats... it was just that simple

    But they wouldn't/couldn't do that and so now we have to ride the nerf train until I guess we all decide for ourselves when its time to jump off

    Alright...so powersharing was perceived as a problem by the devs (even though there was absolutely nothing wrong with it but ok)...and because they are so mean and unreasonable in order to solve that problem they nerfed everyones bondings instead of leaving them alone and addressing the root of the problem directly...the powersharing dc. All that was ever needed was to stop companion´s gift from passing on buffed stats....so simple.
    Because if an AC DC with 50k base power shares 29k power to party members that would be an appropriate number....no more problems...no further nerfs to be feared. Right?
    Is this sarcasm? Hard to tell in text...

    If an AC has 50k base power and 20k recovery, they have pretty much dedicated all they've got to buffing their team members' power in addition to the %damage bonuses, haste, etc... and yes, for a buffing class build that is indeed buffing

    This is where its difficult for me to tell what you are trying to say with your post.... Are trying to say ACs buff too much?

    If so why wouldn't you just say that and be done with it?

    So that high end AC DC giving 29k power would buff a near BIS dps for ~23%....a little more than a DO does by slotting TI ...just that the AC actually has to have a working and expensive build and actually do something to keep it up.
    For a more lowly dps with only 50k self-buffed power it would be more than 30% at least while a half-naked one with 15k power might actually be mildly impressed. I hope you´re seeing the sarcasm now.
    That´s another nice thing about powersharing by the way....as opposed to increasing the divide between the haves and the have-nots it has this equalizing effect. Not a diminishing return per se but well....a high end dps with lots of power to begin with profits less from the same buff than a lowly dps (+power from pala of course also influences the effectiveness)....given they both have maxed (or for now rk13) bondings. However...that is a prerequisite for endgame dungeons like tong anyways....even in the absence of powersharing traipsing around in tong with a blue augment with some lowly runes or lesser bondings on a pet wouldn´t be a thing.

    Powersharing was working perfectly...there was absolutely nothing wrong with (well companions vanishing in some place...meh).
    The only thing it lacks is a cleric explaining it in an easy to read and understand guide for everyone. Maybe such a guide exists somewhere.

  • putzboy78putzboy78 Posts: 1,807Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User



    So that high end AC DC giving 29k power would buff a near BIS dps for ~23%....a little more than a DO does by slotting TI ...just that the AC actually has to have a working and expensive build and actually do something to keep it up.
    For a more lowly dps with only 50k self-buffed power it would be more than 30% at least while a half-naked one with 15k power might actually be mildly impressed. I hope you´re seeing the sarcasm now.
    That´s another nice thing about powersharing by the way....as opposed to increasing the divide between the haves and the have-nots it has this equalizing effect. Not a diminishing return per se but well....a high end dps with lots of power to begin with profits less from the same buff than a lowly dps (+power from pala of course also influences the effectiveness)....given they both have maxed (or for now rk13) bondings. However...that is a prerequisite for endgame dungeons like tong anyways....even in the absence of powersharing traipsing around in tong with a blue augment with some lowly runes or lesser bondings on a pet wouldn´t be a thing.

    Powersharing was working perfectly...there was absolutely nothing wrong with (well companions vanishing in some place...meh).
    The only thing it lacks is a cleric explaining it in an easy to read and understand guide for everyone. Maybe such a guide exists somewhere.

    Your making one false assumption though, and that is that the low dps and high dps have the same base damage. So same mainhand, same crit chance, same weapon enchant, basically everything is the same except power, which is typically not the case. Even in this scenario, both the hdps and lowdps get the exact same damage increase (% may be higher, but actual damage is the same). So as you mentioned its not a diminishing return damage wise.

    The other challenge for the have nots is BIS DC don't typically run with them (guild runs are an exception) as they tend to play with people they have played with a long time (i.e. also BIS).

    The challenge is making tong equally accessible to 12Ks and 15Ks
  • superent666superent666 Posts: 133Member Arc User
    putzboy78 said:



    So that high end AC DC giving 29k power would buff a near BIS dps for ~23%....a little more than a DO does by slotting TI ...just that the AC actually has to have a working and expensive build and actually do something to keep it up.
    For a more lowly dps with only 50k self-buffed power it would be more than 30% at least while a half-naked one with 15k power might actually be mildly impressed. I hope you´re seeing the sarcasm now.
    That´s another nice thing about powersharing by the way....as opposed to increasing the divide between the haves and the have-nots it has this equalizing effect. Not a diminishing return per se but well....a high end dps with lots of power to begin with profits less from the same buff than a lowly dps (+power from pala of course also influences the effectiveness)....given they both have maxed (or for now rk13) bondings. However...that is a prerequisite for endgame dungeons like tong anyways....even in the absence of powersharing traipsing around in tong with a blue augment with some lowly runes or lesser bondings on a pet wouldn´t be a thing.

    Powersharing was working perfectly...there was absolutely nothing wrong with (well companions vanishing in some place...meh).
    The only thing it lacks is a cleric explaining it in an easy to read and understand guide for everyone. Maybe such a guide exists somewhere.

    Your making one false assumption though, and that is that the low dps and high dps have the same base damage. So same mainhand, same crit chance, same weapon enchant, basically everything is the same except power, which is typically not the case. Even in this scenario, both the hdps and lowdps get the exact same damage increase (% may be higher, but actual damage is the same). So as you mentioned its not a diminishing return damage wise.

    The other challenge for the have nots is BIS DC don't typically run with them (guild runs are an exception) as they tend to play with people they have played with a long time (i.e. also BIS).

    The challenge is making tong equally accessible to 12Ks and 15Ks
    It still stands that the suggestion of companion´s gift transferring only unbuffed power is nonsensical.
    And well....a power-sharing AC DC builds purely to buff...no significant damage...buffs becoming better with gear. A DO
    can´t really up it´s buff/debuff potential from a certain point onwards and then can proceed to add some noticeable personal
    damage. Seems fine on first sight. Or was before the change...the only problem was the two of them synergizing.
    So you think some problem would be solved if the AC DC would be turned into a DO? All powersharing action turned into flat
    unchanging buffs easily achieved - after that go for dps?
    As for the rarity of high IL AC DC being a problem for the have nots...I would say there are far more high IL AC DC´s out there
    and if a BIS group has the choice ...don´t you think they´d prefer a DO now anyways?^^ If no, why not?
  • preechr#2215 preechr Posts: 488Member Arc User



    All they ever needed to do was stop companion's gift from passing on buffed stats... it was just that simple

    But they wouldn't/couldn't do that and so now we have to ride the nerf train until I guess we all decide for ourselves when its time to jump off

    Alright...so powersharing was perceived as a problem by the devs (even though there was absolutely nothing wrong with it but ok)...and because they are so mean and unreasonable in order to solve that problem they nerfed everyones bondings instead of leaving them alone and addressing the root of the problem directly...the powersharing dc. All that was ever needed was to stop companion´s gift from passing on buffed stats....so simple.
    Because if an AC DC with 50k base power shares 29k power to party members that would be an appropriate number....no more problems...no further nerfs to be feared. Right?
    Is this sarcasm? Hard to tell in text...

    If an AC has 50k base power and 20k recovery, they have pretty much dedicated all they've got to buffing their team members' power in addition to the %damage bonuses, haste, etc... and yes, for a buffing class build that is indeed buffing

    This is where its difficult for me to tell what you are trying to say with your post.... Are trying to say ACs buff too much?

    If so why wouldn't you just say that and be done with it?

    So that high end AC DC giving 29k power would buff a near BIS dps for ~23%....a little more than a DO does by slotting TI ...just that the AC actually has to have a working and expensive build and actually do something to keep it up.
    For a more lowly dps with only 50k self-buffed power it would be more than 30% at least while a half-naked one with 15k power might actually be mildly impressed. I hope you´re seeing the sarcasm now.
    That´s another nice thing about powersharing by the way....as opposed to increasing the divide between the haves and the have-nots it has this equalizing effect. Not a diminishing return per se but well....a high end dps with lots of power to begin with profits less from the same buff than a lowly dps (+power from pala of course also influences the effectiveness)....given they both have maxed (or for now rk13) bondings. However...that is a prerequisite for endgame dungeons like tong anyways....even in the absence of powersharing traipsing around in tong with a blue augment with some lowly runes or lesser bondings on a pet wouldn´t be a thing.

    Powersharing was working perfectly...there was absolutely nothing wrong with (well companions vanishing in some place...meh).
    The only thing it lacks is a cleric explaining it in an easy to read and understand guide for everyone. Maybe such a guide exists somewhere.

    Ok I think I am getting your point now, but its a shame you have such a round-about way of expressing it

    Let me see if I got this... You think (I think) that an AC that has worked really hard and spent a lot of time and money to boost up their buffing capability and skills deserves to benefit from the multiplicative effect of companion's gift as it is now, because to limit CG to only sharing base stats would effectively make the buffs from any almost-afk DO approximately the same as buff from a perfectly geared and skilled 17K AC?

    Is that about right?
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Posts: 1,807Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    It still stands that the suggestion of companion´s gift transferring only unbuffed power is nonsensical.
    And well....a power-sharing AC DC builds purely to buff...no significant damage...buffs becoming better with gear. A DO
    can´t really up it´s buff/debuff potential from a certain point onwards and then can proceed to add some noticeable personal
    damage. Seems fine on first sight. Or was before the change...the only problem was the two of them synergizing.
    So you think some problem would be solved if the AC DC would be turned into a DO? All powersharing action turned into flat
    unchanging buffs easily achieved - after that go for dps?
    As for the rarity of high IL AC DC being a problem for the have nots...I would say there are far more high IL AC DC´s out there
    and if a BIS group has the choice ...don´t you think they´d prefer a DO now anyways?^^ If no, why not?

    You are only comparing Power Buff to TI. TI is not all a DO does. It can increase its buff/debuff potential through recovery (POD, HG, BTS, FF uptime) and also requires positioning for BTS and HG (although the positioning is forgiving). Also if DO is using Fire of the Gods to proc Bear your Sins then increased crit will impact up time. If you look at my character, I'm not running person dps mounts, I'm running a trex equip power to debuff and griphon to reduce cooldowns on my HG and encounters.

    Also there is no synergy between DO and AC, both contribution is mutually exclusive of the other with possibly the exception of haste which is not a synergy as its not unique to the team composition.

    As I've said other places, the correct action is a diminishing return on power. In this way the power buffer is never useless or made obsolete but you would see more benefit to low ilvl parties than high ilvl parties. You may also see less demand for the OP/AC DC combo's in dungeons as the duplication of power sharing may be less beneficial. This would also turn the meta runners to modify stat priority. Imagine if GWF knows he is going to hit a soft cap on power regardless because of power share, now he's free to move stats to other areas, maybe he can play more off tank for example by investing more in stamina and defensive stats.

    Your final sentence makes no sense. I didn't say rarity was an issue for have nots, I said that high lvl ACs are going to give preference to high ilvl parties over low ilvl parties. What 15K wants to run with pugs when they can run with similar geared/experienced players?

    A reason to like AC over DO is most DO's are less tanky than AC's, most DO's don't slot haste. Most AC's are better geared in general than DO's because you reach an ilvl where AC out performs DO. AA moves with the party, HG doesn't, giving AA an advantage in zergs. Also I could argue that AC is cheaper to run than DO because DO's typically are in competition with DPSrs for BIS weapon enchants, enchantments, mounts, and companions. Where BIS for AC is typically different items than DPS BIS items. Let's face it, some people just love the AC mechanic/role, others love the DO role. They provide a bit different gameplay that can be enjoyed by all. Also DO was here first and therefore I will always be partial to DOs :)

    I'm not against the powersharing, I like it but the reality is that it does hurt the game in terms of development. A large gap between the Have's and Have Not's makes the game less attractive to new comers which cuts down both on server population (impacts markets, ability for people to run content, etc) and their RL$ contributions to development.
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Posts: 1,807Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    It should also be noted there is a diminishing return on debuffs. Which makes mechanics that aren't subject to a diminishing return such as power share more popular that they may be otherwise. Diminishing returns create balance but of course those balances don't happen if the are not implemented equally across similar mechanics. These unbalanced caps and diminished returns will push the community toward certain builds/designs over others
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,186Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Atm, an AC-DC with some recovery and AP gain is able to cast HG and AA overlapping at several Boss encounter, esp with Dev OP or Tact GF or another DC using gift of haste/HL offhand etc., that's why I think AC is allways welcome. If you are a good AC/DC and get supported you might/will outperform DO by that.

    But I don´t know how much Power to stack to beat HG buff and TI (it´s a multiplier x1,4 and x1,2, right?) on a BIS player with 60-70k power (selfbuffed), if you do not double cast those Dailies?
    At 40k basepower AC spends about 65k and DO about 12k power at optimal rebuff/positioning towards a player with 3x14 bonds. At 70k selfbuffed power (a GWF for sure) it´s +60% damage from AC and +80% damage from DO, if I am not that wrong.
    I have to admit, that I can´t keep up those powerbuffs to all companions and partymembers all time since nerf and since BoB has a limited aoe, beside that fact that lot´s of companions tend to die a lot in Tong.
    I would prefer that HG/TI over simple powerbuffs most time, since more consistent (autobuff more or less), not to talk of PoD debuff, and since I do not run that much with parties that are BIS and got legendary, undying companions.
    If companions rebuff would get nerfed/deleted by now, there is not much reason to run AC/DC at all.

    @putzboy78 I did not understand that part about AC and DO do not synergize? AC is powerbuff, DO multiplier. DO debuffs with PoD on top, one takes FF one BtS, only DG+ByS and CG will overlap. The synergy of both classes in one run is pretty ok imo?
    And what is a trex bonus? Talking of that part of the pact companion?

    Pugging a lot myself it´s allways hard in Tong, getting a lot of input from striker, yelling, if things don´t work the way it should and after they got onehittet from Ras Nsi 10 times.
    Atm I feel like everyone points at the DC if your party can´t succeed.
    "Drop AS, get Exhale" ...I had to look up for my powers to get a clue what he was talking of.
    "Take AA, drop HG" "go AC" "go DO"
    "Do you spam AA?" "Do you run HG", "Who casts BtS..."
    Neverending and it is annoying to be corrected or asked about basics of the class, ignoring the fact that it may be their own pityfull performance that simply sucks and the fact that they got carried a lot so far by others.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Posts: 1,807Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I did not understand that part about AC and DO do not synergize? AC is powerbuff, DO multiplier. DO debuffs with PoD on top, one takes FF one BtS, only DG+ByS and CG will overlap. The synergy of both classes in one run is pretty ok imo?

    And what is a trex bonus? Talking of that part of the pact companion?

    Maybe it would be easier to define synergy: the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.

    So in the scenario of AC and DO, both perform their piece separately, they do not make each other better at their role. In effect you can trade one for another buff/debuff (CW for example) and the remaining DCs contribution is the same.

    Where we've seen synergies in the game as an example was the GF/OP synergy where OP would protect the GF, GF would use KV with reflect damage and everything got melted. GF KV with reflect was not capable on its own of doing this (GF dies). Another synergy example is when ITF was based on RI, when the DC buffed RI, ITF would buff through the moon. The two classes had a synergy where GF was not as potent on his own (the ITF buff didn't justify bringing the GF over the superior OP tank) but together combined effect was far superior to using HG/Foresight/Astral Shield on its own or using ITF on its own.

    For those that weren't here,when the GF ITF got moved from being RI based to it being a flat increase thus destroying the synergy. This left both classes as second class citizens. GF got buffed to the dps animals you see today and AC powerbuff became the meta until a powerbuffing nerf and DO buff made both builds viable and led to the 2 DC meta.

    Also in there somewhere was another AC powerbuffing nerf where they stacked which made multiple ACs the meta.

    As you can see, the problem the devs have continued to face is as they introduce more power to the game, the powerbuffing exceeds the planned scalling and they nerf it. And that's why many think another powerbuffing nerf is coming.

    Also the GF RI determining ITFs buff potency wasn't really an issue because prior to module 6 there was a DR on defense. Thus the overall potency of ITF could not exceed the games planned power creep. When module 6 was introduced and defense got stacked to 60% (theoretical cap) the ITF buff when combined with DC exceeded the game designers targets on power creep.

    All of that could have been avoided by keeping synergies (more interesting game mechanics) or diminishing returns (lots more work to implement but in theory if you do it once you don't have to redo it with each content addition).



  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,186Member Arc User
    Got it, ITF was out of hand.
    And yes, the game felt somehow more balanced with old DR.
    But there was not much to spend stats on, if not the devs would have readjusted DR every mod.
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Posts: 1,807Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    there was, Power & Hit Points were the garbage stats of pre-mod 6. Power was a low return stat. This is why so many lost their shirts in mod 6, everyone had to replace their radiants at once and the price of R10 radiant plummeted. Power didn't have the potency it does in the new system and ofc there wasn't bonding to transfer power the way it does now. The in balances pre-mod 6 was more to do with armor set bonus (cws were gods), poor mechanics (GF's couldn't hold agro), and ofc some classes are just better suited to certain content (TRs in PVP). Meanwhile GWFs were the third class citizens (they've been top dogs since mod 6).
  • superent666superent666 Posts: 133Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @preechr yes:D exactly
    putzboy78 said:



    Also there is no synergy between DO and AC, both contribution is mutually exclusive of the other with possibly the exception of haste which is not a synergy as its not unique to the team composition.

    What I meant with "synergy" (bad word, me no speak englisch very well sry^^) is that their buffs stack so nicely which is the reason why people take 2 dc´s. That should be addressed and hopefully will in a way that still leaves both AC and DO viable alternatives.

    Atm, an AC-DC with some recovery and AP gain is able to cast HG and AA overlapping at several Boss encounter, esp with Dev OP or Tact GF or another DC using gift of haste/HL offhand etc., that's why I think AC is allways welcome. If you are a good AC/DC and get supported you might/will outperform DO by that.



    But I don´t know how much Power to stack to beat HG buff and TI (it´s a multiplier x1,4 and x1,2, right?) on a BIS player with 60-70k power (selfbuffed), if you do not double cast those Dailies?

    At 40k basepower AC spends about 65k and DO about 12k power at optimal rebuff/positioning towards a player with 3x14 bonds. At 70k selfbuffed power (a GWF for sure) it´s +60% damage from AC and +80% damage from DO, if I am not that wrong.

    I have to admit, that I can´t keep up those powerbuffs to all companions and partymembers all time since nerf and since BoB has a limited aoe, beside that fact that lot´s of companions tend to die a lot in Tong.

    I would prefer that HG/TI over simple powerbuffs most time, since more consistent (autobuff more or less), not to talk of PoD debuff, and since I do not run that much with parties that are BIS and got legendary, undying companions.

    If companions rebuff would get nerfed/deleted by now, there is not much reason to run AC/DC at all.



    @putzboy78 I did not understand that part about AC and DO do not synergize? AC is powerbuff, DO multiplier. DO debuffs with PoD on top, one takes FF one BtS, only DG+ByS and CG will overlap. The synergy of both classes in one run is pretty ok imo?

    And what is a trex bonus? Talking of that part of the pact companion?



    Pugging a lot myself it´s allways hard in Tong, getting a lot of input from striker, yelling, if things don´t work the way it should and after they got onehittet from Ras Nsi 10 times.

    Atm I feel like everyone points at the DC if your party can´t succeed.

    "Drop AS, get Exhale" ...I had to look up for my powers to get a clue what he was talking of.

    "Take AA, drop HG" "go AC" "go DO"

    "Do you spam AA?" "Do you run HG", "Who casts BtS..."

    Neverending and it is annoying to be corrected or asked about basics of the class, ignoring the fact that it may be their own pityfull performance that simply sucks and the fact that they got carried a lot so far by others.

    If you only perma- hurl AA and BoB on BIS -dps with 70k self-buffed power you´d need something like 52k base power to top a DO using TI and HG (WoL the DO has, too, although typically a wee bit weaker)....while the latter is really easy to keep up...the former (as you said) really not. If there is powersharing pala etc. on the scene the number would be have to be even higher. So good luck with that.
    Plan B is as you said to use both HG and AA as an AC to justify your existence as the only DC in the party (you´re also not doing any credible dps as opposed to a DO). But you cannot do this as easily like before due to the bonding cooldown. I would still like to have some feedback on that from other AC´s. I hardly had time to play lately. Other than that AC is already rather worse than an DO - it seems to me. So I dunno why anyone would ask to further nerf it.
    It´s not good as it is now after the nerf and we all know further nerfs are coming to fix 2-dc-meta. So stop asking for more nerfage already...there´s the off-chance some dev might read this and get bad...I mean even worse ideas...:P Yea no that´s more likely magical thinking. Probably...:P
    Post edited by superent666 on
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Posts: 1,807Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited November 2017

    putzboy78 said:

    don't forget OP and CW can pass stats through bonding. It's not just a DC challenge, only dc is getting the attention. How to fix it is complex, how to avoid it isn't.

    Prestidigitation is a multiplier on allies statistics, it does not share 3% of yours. The feat is so terrible in the current meta I wouldn't even use it on a support build. The day I see someone asking for a CW for this feat is the day I quit NW.
    get in alliance chat, i have a lfm to show you, :p
  • superent666superent666 Posts: 133Member Arc User
    I think the best fix for the 2 dc thing would be to just revert some of the recent changes that created it (or at least were a big part in that). Make TI a personal buff again; maybe a more interesting one the dc actually has to work with (other than just slotting it) so a good DO using it to its best effect would gain a much higher -personal- buff than the 20% group buff that it is now.
    Having two very strong support options in one class is what created a problem. But giving the DO anything but more dps in exchange for taking away some buff potential would be bad since more healing and mitigation than a DC (even AC or DO righteous) can give isn´t needed in PVE.
    Then revert the changes to powersharing - constant refresh like before and slight adjustment (upwards) of the powershare of AA, BF and WoL. No matter how long I look at it I don´t see a problem with powersharing...like something spiraling out of control...it is just another buff-mechanic. And really not the reason they nerfed bondings.

    The DO would still have some good buff/debuff and way more dps than now...so still viable. The AC is the best buffer with next to no dps. Neither players of DO´s nor AC´s would have to scrap their builds to adjust. Both still viable. Everything peachy. Or at lest peachier...without too much work.
  • miyanaamiyanaa Posts: 72Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I dont understand why they should nerf any DC at all?

    Why cant they make a rainbow party for PvE and PvP? Just force it, so all classes would be welcome instead of takin 2 DCs or 2 CWs/GWFs or whatever.

    I dont think nerfing us will do the job tbh.
    PvP DC ~ Meep Neox
    YouTube
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Posts: 1,807Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I think the best fix for the 2 dc thing would be to just revert some of the recent changes that created it (or at least were a big part in that). Make TI a personal buff again; maybe a more interesting one the dc actually has to work with (other than just slotting it) so a good DO using it to its best effect would gain a much higher -personal- buff than the 20% group buff that it is now.

    Removing team buff from TI would kill DO from getting into parties, not an option. DO wouldn't have more personal dps, since he already gets buffed from TI and would only be a competent dpsr if you buffed it like 100%


    The challenge with powersharing as mentioned a thousand times is that it doesn't scale well, it multiples the power increase on every piece of new gear times 3 and will continue to grow the gap between those with a powersharer in party and those without. There has to be some theoretical limit that manages the disparity
    miyanaa said:

    I dont understand why they should nerf any DC at all?

    Why cant they make a rainbow party for PvE and PvP? Just force it, so all classes would be welcome instead of takin 2 DCs or 2 CWs/GWFs or whatever.

    I dont think nerfing us will do the job tbh.

    Forced rainbow parties will make queue's longer period. Also deprives players from the ability to play with their friends. Private queues need to stay, the rewards between private and public need to be good enough to encourage the use of public.

    We are talking about symptoms here, the 2 dc meta is really only sought out for TONG and on occasion (but much less so) FBI or MSP. The meta makes such a huge difference in both completion chance and run time that people don't mind spending a half hour forming a party. In all other content, no one cares about the meta because the effort and rewards are aligned. Move FBI and MSP to the Heroes Accord, and make the Heroes Accord reward worth effectively double the rewards from those dungeons, because lets be honest, running outside the meta will take you about twice the time.

    You will still see calls for the meta, but you will also see people more willing to run outside the meta because the rewards warrant it.
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Posts: 1,807Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    maybe the more important discussion is why would cryptic not like the 2 dc meta. Maybe they are feeding this vitriol because:

    1) They want tong to take an hour and for success rate to be lower and are disappointed that its not working out that way. BTW it's listed as a half hour dungeon which is only really possible in the 2 dc lineup
    2) Having the community turn on itself puts will ensure the hate for the next round of nerfs is focused on each other and not on them


  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    As devs seem to intend to kind of force 3 dps 2 supports groups I once suggested that all classes that have buffs see them getting a substantial boost and damage dealers getting the same treatment with their base damage, this would make geoups have similar perfomance meta groups do now without requiring specific classes, it would be a win - win situation.

    As for TI, I agree that changing it the way a poster suggested on thread would male DO go an collect dust once again so it definitely is a big no no.
  • miyanaamiyanaa Posts: 72Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    putzboy78 said:


    Forced rainbow parties will make queue's longer period. Also deprives players from the ability to play with their friends. Private queues need to stay, the rewards between private and public need to be good enough to encourage the use of public.

    What I meant is that they should force rainbow party in private queue. Public queue doesnt matter that much in my opinion.
    Unless people would be so desperate they would try to sync-queue with friends for dungeons, just to get that 2DC party..which would be like I said - sad.



    PvP DC ~ Meep Neox
    YouTube
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Posts: 1,807Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    miyanaa said:

    putzboy78 said:


    Forced rainbow parties will make queue's longer period. Also deprives players from the ability to play with their friends. Private queues need to stay, the rewards between private and public need to be good enough to encourage the use of public.

    What I meant is that they should force rainbow party in private queue. Public queue doesnt matter that much in my opinion.
    Unless people would be so desperate they would try to sync-queue with friends for dungeons, just to get that 2DC party..which would be like I said - sad.



    Still don't agree, i have a lot of DCs in my guild I enjoy playing with. I don't want to limit my interaction with them to guild chat and campaigns. I should be able to private queue a full dc party if i want. And why would you care if I did? The only reasons people care about the private queues are:

    1) They can't get into a group, which they only care about because
    2) The rewards from public queue do not justify the effort/risk of public queue

    Fix the rewards, you fix the problem. Dividing our social circles is not the answer. It's an MMO, the social part is what keeps it going. If it was content, we would all just play RPGs which have far better content anyhow.
  • miyanaamiyanaa Posts: 72Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Yeah I do agree with you, completely :)

    But on the other hand its gonna suck if they nerf DCs even more, nerf the debuff/buff in any way. I dont care about power-sharing at all, no fks given tbh. They can remove it lol.

    But would hate it if they destroy BtS, FF or any feats.
    PvP DC ~ Meep Neox
    YouTube
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,049Member Arc User
    edited November 2017

    putzboy78 said:

    don't forget OP and CW can pass stats through bonding. It's not just a DC challenge, only dc is getting the attention. How to fix it is complex, how to avoid it isn't.

    Prestidigitation is a multiplier on allies statistics, it does not share 3% of yours. The feat is so terrible in the current meta I wouldn't even use it on a support build. The day I see someone asking for a CW for this feat is the day I quit NW.
    Power sharing from a DC Weapon of Light is not an issue. The issue of power sharing kicks in when it includes Weapon of Light, Battle Fervor and Anointed Army for over 50% of the DC power. That power is than increased by 285% on consoles and on PC is is 190% from 3 R12/R14 bonding.

    Than if you have a DO DC you get an additional 10% of their power from their weapon of Light, add a OP and you get another 25% from their power sharing and add a CW with Prestidigitation you get their 3% of their power.

    I put together a group using well built AC DC, me as a CW Oppressor with 2% stat sharing, a Healadin, a high power DO DC and a Tankadin with power sharing. The runs were fun, and I had my fastest eToS, CN, and eLoL runs I have seen. My CW power was around 300K+ through most of the runs and we blew through content.

    Without any power sharing I get 30K from my companion, I'm on console by the way, and I'm far from having BiS for companion enchantments. The difference from me having around 60K in total power to 300K in power is around 600% (give or take) more in damage. Now, this is using the very basic formula of 400 in power equals 1% increase in damage.

    If the devs removed power sharing from companions the game would be better for it.

    This would impact AC DC and other power sharing builds and make the DO more viable and make AC useless. Not true if the devs modify power sharing so that the DC/OP/CW/SW companion can buff their stats to share that power.

    So now a 50K power sharing AC/DC shares 25K in power. Than a companion process that and it is increased by 195% to the player for total power of almost 75K between the power the player gets from the AC/DC and the power their companion shares.

    The update I recommend would allow the AC DC to tap his or her companion power even at max (6K from enchantments, 3k from bonding, 700 from companion stats, and 1500 from gear) with the current 195% would give the DC 21,840 power. Than 50% of this would be 10,920 along with whatever power the DC already has. This update would not break the game like it does today for power sharing.

    It is a thought on how to keep power sharing in the game through companions without breaking the game.



  • putzboy78putzboy78 Posts: 1,807Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    miyanaa said:

    Yeah I do agree with you, completely :)

    But on the other hand its gonna suck if they nerf DCs even more, nerf the debuff/buff in any way. I dont care about power-sharing at all, no fks given tbh. They can remove it lol.

    But would hate it if they destroy BtS, FF or any feats.

    I think where they screwed up is making buff/debuffs split across paragons when in this game its the most defining feature of the class. Perhaps the key is to make the paragons make more difference between tanky and dps. At one time that was the differentiation. ACs were tanky, DO's had more fire power. ACs were pvp, DOs were PVE. The unique buffs/debuffs by paragon is one of the key factors to the dual dc meta. Or maybe the real problem is they haven't mapped out what they want to define the paragaons and trees. So when they make decisions they aren't comparing that to their map to see if the build identity is being maintained. As it stands now the identity of AC is powersharing, the identity of DO is mostly DPS (although the only unique skill that makes that distinction is TI) but as mentioned before the dps is paltry compared to a dps class and is reliant on the buff/debuff stacking in our rotations to even reach the levels we have now.

    Under the paragons the feat trees mostly break down into virt = buff, faith = heals, and right = debuff. There are however some mix/matches even in that logic where faith (Benefit of Foresight) buffs RI or Right (Weapons of Light) is a buff for example

  • micky1p00micky1p00 Posts: 2,716Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited November 2017


    Without any power sharing I get 30K from my companion, I'm on console by the way, and I'm far from having BiS for companion enchantments. The difference from me having around 60K in total power to 300K in power is around 600% (give or take) more in damage. Now, this is using the very basic formula of 400 in power equals 1% increase in damage.

    1. 300 of 60 is exactly 500% not even give or take. Or an increase of 400%
    2. If you have 60k power, buffing it up to 300k (hence adding 240k power) will net you an increase of 240.22% damage.

    (edit was in 2, calculated for 30k base, but it should be for 60k base)
    Post edited by micky1p00 on
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,049Member Arc User
    micky1p00 said:


    Without any power sharing I get 30K from my companion, I'm on console by the way, and I'm far from having BiS for companion enchantments. The difference from me having around 60K in total power to 300K in power is around 600% (give or take) more in damage. Now, this is using the very basic formula of 400 in power equals 1% increase in damage.

    1. 300 of 60 is exactly 500% not even give or take. Or an increase of 400%
    2. If you have 60k power, buffing it up to 300k (hence adding 240k power) will net you an increase of 240.22% damage.

    (edit was in 2, calculated for 30k base, but it should be for 60k base)
    Math aside, the devs need to do something about power sharing.

    For instance, going from getting a total of around 75K in power with a 50K base Power Sharing AC DC to around 35K would be a better way alternative to adjusting the game.

    When I started off and saw what bonding were, I'm like OMG, this is going to be crazy good come end game. No surprise I was right. I should have really focused on getting bonding up to R12 but I was still learning the game and its mechanics.
  • superent666superent666 Posts: 133Member Arc User
    putzboy78 said:

    I think the best fix for the 2 dc thing would be to just revert some of the recent changes that created it (or at least were a big part in that). Make TI a personal buff again; maybe a more interesting one the dc actually has to work with (other than just slotting it) so a good DO using it to its best effect would gain a much higher -personal- buff than the 20% group buff that it is now.

    Removing team buff from TI would kill DO from getting into parties, not an option. DO wouldn't have more personal dps, since he already gets buffed from TI and would only be a competent dpsr if you buffed it like 100%


    The challenge with powersharing as mentioned a thousand times is that it doesn't scale well, it multiples the power increase on every piece of new gear times 3 and will continue to grow the gap between those with a powersharer in party and those without. There has to be some theoretical limit that manages the disparity


    Yes, I said MUCH HIGHER. I´m not competent to give the exact number here...but, yes definitely MUCH HIGHER than 20%.

    And yes, this "challenge with powersharing" has been mentioned a thousand times...it doesn´t necessarily follow that it is correct. Each time the player of an ac dc can get its hands on a new piece of gear/enchant/whatnot that increases the toons base power that power gets multiplied by powersharing. However, the same is true for new gear with a power stat a player of a dps toon can put on the toons companion (gets multiplied) and the toon itself (not multiplied). And since the higher a toons self-buffed power is already - the higher the powershare it gets needs to be to be to reach the same damage increasing potential...and since a more low IL toon IN GENERAL will profit much more from a powershare than high IL toon with awesome self-buffed power stat ....what exactly is the problem? Maybe it´s me and I´m not seeing it. Or maybe there isn´t a problem with powersharing.

    And if one is actually concerned about the difficulty of designing end game content accessible for all....the 2-dc-thing is the elephant in the room. If you have two dc´s (AC and DO) in the party that have even a vague idea about how they should build their toon and what to use - nothing beats that. Powersharing isn´t a problem. But having two extremely powerful support build options in one class is. I mean I like that my 14.2k IL dc gets into tong easy peasy...for my 14.2k IL cw it would mean begging in guild chat. But for designing content and for players of other classes it´s bad. That´s why the devs want to nerf it. You´d like for the AC to just go away into uselessness because you don´t play one:)
    But lots of players do. ´
    There are better solutions to solving the problem but they would have to be more complex - a lot more work. And since the devs don´t seem to put a lot of work into class reworks....something along the lines of what I suggested seems quite likely and sensible.
    micky1p00 said:

    micky1p00 said:


    Without any power sharing I get 30K from my companion, I'm on console by the way, and I'm far from having BiS for companion enchantments. The difference from me having around 60K in total power to 300K in power is around 600% (give or take) more in damage. Now, this is using the very basic formula of 400 in power equals 1% increase in damage.

    1. 300 of 60 is exactly 500% not even give or take. Or an increase of 400%
    2. If you have 60k power, buffing it up to 300k (hence adding 240k power) will net you an increase of 240.22% damage.

    (edit was in 2, calculated for 30k base, but it should be for 60k base)
    Math aside, the devs need to do something about power sharing.

    For instance, going from getting a total of around 75K in power with a 50K base Power Sharing AC DC to around 35K would be a better way alternative to adjusting the game.

    When I started off and saw what bonding were, I'm like OMG, this is going to be crazy good come end game. No surprise I was right. I should have really focused on getting bonding up to R12 but I was still learning the game and its mechanics.
    No, you posted an entire thread about how people with 60k people are evil, and bonding should be removed from the game. And argued to no end about it. But that's history, and not relevant.

    Math not aside, tell me please:
    1. The damage increase from buff or debuffs that the non power share provides. MoF ? DO DC ? etc...
    2. The damage increase of the numbers you suggest.
    3. The base power an AC DC needs to have to reach that 240k power buff (sure we can remove other sources, but except OP i don't remember any other significant source, but yes take that into account), and the needed power to match those from point 1.

    Lets talk numbers, because throwing up "make it share 35k" has a meaning, and lets not throw just eye balled numbers in the air...

    I'm do not mean to offend, but I'll be blunt, your earlier comment of 600% damage which is actually 240% shows you don't understand yet the mechanics, but suggest arbitrary numbers to which a class or mechanic should be nerfed into.
    Please don't. Big numbers doesn't mean lack of balance, big numbers only mean big numbers. Balance is "compared to something"
    If you want to suggest a change, please at least make it somewhat based on something, and not because it fells X or Y, or you see numbers Z.

    ----
    side note, I'm not saying that power buff shouldn't be changed, or changed. I'm just saying that a lot of people mislead, some on purpose, some by honest mistake, and we should at least be careful and try not to mislead.
    I couldn´t agree more with that. Hitting the "agree-button" didn´t suffice...:P
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Posts: 1,807Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    Each time the player of an ac dc can get its hands on a new piece of gear/enchant/whatnot that increases the toons base power that power gets multiplied by powersharing. However, the same is true for new gear with a power stat a player of a dps toon can put on the toons companion (gets multiplied) and the toon itself (not multiplied).

    When was the last time a new item increased power on the companion side. Loyal Avenger has been king for like 3 years. Anyhow, that dps doesn't take that gear and then cycle it through through 4 party members and 5 companions. In any regard, as you've seen in my other posts, I'm not saying there is a problem with power sharing, I'm saying that powersharing + bonding makes a problem with scaling content. In repeat posts I've called for the correct solution which is diminishing returns.


    And since the higher a toons self-buffed power is already - the higher the powershare it gets needs to be to be to reach the same damage increasing potential...and since a more low IL toon IN GENERAL will profit much more from a powershare than high IL toon with awesome self-buffed power stat ....what exactly is the problem? Maybe it´s me and I´m not seeing it. Or maybe there isn´t a problem with powersharing.

    That's not how power works. Both low and high lvl characters benefit the same from power assuming the weapon damage, crit, crit sev, etc are the same. The problem isn't powersharing, the challenge is scaling content to meet both audiences. This is why we've already seen at least 3 nerfs to the power sharing mechanics and each one has been a failed attempt to address a symptom. Which is the over inflation of power creep. That's why people feel that power-sharing is the most likely to be attacked again. An attack on power-sharing isn't just an attack on dc, it's also an attack on OP.


    And if one is actually concerned about the difficulty of designing end game content accessible for all....the 2-dc-thing is the elephant in the room.

    I disagree, I think the dev's and shills pointed the conversation in this direction to direct our hate at each other (which I have none). The elephant in the room is the 4 buff/debuff meta and the terrible rewards offered by Hero's Accord. Like I've said on here to many times, make the rewards of Hero's Accord in line with the extra hassle of running the non-meta and you see the problem work itself out. You don't see people running the meta for etos because the rewards justify the running outside the meta. Even if they nerf the hell out of one DC configuration, you will still see a 4 buff/debuff 1 dps meta. Look at the highest speed tongs on youtube. All feature 2 tanks, 2 dc, 1 dps . Some feature 1 tank as the dps with the traditional dps role being HR using longstrider as a buffer. There is no reason for the 2dc meta to get anymore vitriol than the 2 tank meta but everyone has been steered in this direction for the purposes of the community turning on each other and the hate not getting directed at cryptic in the next nerf.


    You´d like for the AC to just go away into uselessness because you don´t play one:)

    I have never said nerf the AC into uselessness and I won't. I have any friends that love AC and I'm glad they do because they play a role I don't want to. Don't project your self hate onto me. Your making it personal and I don't have anything personal against AC. My responses about the powersharing our based on reason and understanding that cryptic caused this mess by not making the last 2 levels of bonding do something else besides share power, this made the scaling on power creep harder to manage and leads to more nerfs to compensate. Then they ruined the DO class with the ITF nerf and tried to fix it with a lazy TI buff.


    And since the devs don´t seem to put a lot of work into class reworks....something along the lines of what I suggested seems quite likely and sensible.

    They will never buff dc enough to make DO Right a viable DPS. They can't even do that for TR, SW, or CW. So nerfing the hell out of DO buffs and forcing them into DPS is not a viable option. It will kill the build for team play. All it will do is further help DC in doing dailys (which we don't need). That option would be lazy and I demand more. Fix hero's accord, and the rest of the domino's will begin to fall into place. Let cryptic do the same thing they said about astral shield "we are going to test this on live and see how it goes" with hero's accord, adjust the rewards and see how much more popular hero's accord gets.
  • plaviaplavia Posts: 540Member Arc User
    they have to change cleric soon, unless the new class is EXACTLY cleric role. (not OP)
    and even if the new class is super buffer, cleric will still be mandatory.
    for a while i was thinking tong 2 clerics will go away, but no.

    1) damage need to go up. across all powers and daily.
    if needed cleric should have 10% fire piercing damge boon (replace holy resolve or Intiate of fate)

    2) cast speed of PoD, chains, guardian of fate, hammers, lance of fate and sacred flame should reduce by half
    delay of DL should reduce as well.

    3) Weapon of light can not be so strong. its must feat for all PVE builds.
    need to re think righteous path. 25% more damage is too basic compare to other paths or builds.
    other paths should have more party buffs, more AP, stamina, resist, recovery...
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