Bad times for CW

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  • c1k4ml3kc3
    c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    niadan said:

    @c1k4ml3kc3



    I have yet to be offered to run high end content....out of pity...lol

    That doesn't mean that you represent the majority of the CW community. Trust me.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • pjohnny1
    pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User

    niadan said:

    @c1k4ml3kc3



    I have yet to be offered to run high end content....out of pity...lol

    That doesn't mean that you represent the majority of the CW community. Trust me.
    Lol all the min/max bis players of all classes on all 3 platforms don't represent even 1/10th of a percent of the population. That can be said of any game of this type . That being said they usually do most of the build optimizing and theory crafting of classes. Plus they test new content for devs and give feedback so they can adjust it so casuals can do it .
  • oria1
    oria1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    Wait, you don't care if I can keep it on a dummy ?? You said it cant be done and I showed you its dont but that doesnt count.. but on your tests its a proof whatever you can show on dummies..
    nice logic and reasoning.

    Yet on the video you see a "A MoF that is worse" and all the other nice things you are naming managed to help his team to one of the fastest kills even tho the GWF didn't even use IBS. Imagine if I was useful. FYI on that video even with the lag we all had back then what you fail to notice also is that I 'm using my ambush drake because someone else had dancing shield which at the time it dint have the necessary recovery as my best gears are on my dancing shield. And since I lost a lot of recharge speed I thought it would be better to save the RoE for double debuff which is why you see it off or 2x, to help even more. Now that I got the right gears on ambush I can do the 2 x roe there too. Keep in mind that video was made when the DC had the bug with the buffs and yet we still did this fast kills. Note here, I'm not claiming its the fastest kill ever or something like that, but its not slow either. Most of us here have done some runs and we can judge by the time it took to kill the bosses. According to sharp since MoF is a "dead weight" it should be a LOT slower.


    Glad to see your objectivity tho when you judge by one or 2 videos without even asking for info first as to why.

    "A party can reliably achieve 200% effectiveness without a MoF rene" (+100% debuff),
    No, not even the majority of the parties can. There may be few that can go to 100% but most don't. After all you said too that its not reliable and not always on so if a debuff is up 50% of time down at 100% value how much is the real value of debuff over time?

    You keep adding the cw at the end of your calculations but the reality is different. Since CW debuffs are always on, ours are the base and the others build upon them, so if you do the calc over time sharp you will find an entire different view.

    "At 200% effectiveness, I would rather have a 40% buff then a 140% debuff. Can other classes keep debuffs reliably up on trash? No. Tell me though, when was the last time we cared about trash? I think it was mod 5. Can other classes keep debuffs up reliably on bosses? Yes, they can."

    Its the other way around. A Mof will produce a 140% always on debuff and the rest provide the extra (and if) 100% which has medium uptime and gets further diminished and therefore doesn't offer much. As for mobs, in SP its full and ask for far more damage than the bosses do (unless you skip which we don't) and in t9 there are a substantial amount too both on the dungeon and on 1st and 3rd boss. Regardless if we care for mobs or not it does help the team and that a fact you didn't deny for both debuff and Combat advantage.

    But even like that lets see about that 40% buff .
    Note that the buff lasts for 4 sec and has a cooldown of 13 sec. If we apply your logic of dividing by time as you did with the Chaotic fury Its its up almost 1/4th of the time so 10% :)
    Lets assume we have 100k hit and 400% buff and 100* debuff (unreliable)

    100k * 400%* 10% * 100% debuff = 880k


    Now about the 140% debuff of the MoF which we will add 100% debuff of the other classes and it will go to 240% but with diminishing returns from 240 % it will drop to 190%. it's not that much but I will give you that since you gave mof a 10% on chaotic fury, which we also need to include even at 10% so.

    100k * 400% * 10% * 190% = 1276k


    But because you might say its not Combat HR but a Trapper HR (which I doubt plus I don't like telling people what to play but If an HR can add to this as to what its best to play as HR on boss fights as I don't have one but talking out of what I see others do)

    100k * 400%* 40% * 100% debuff = 1112k

    We can all see where the advantage is and I don't even include the down times on debuffs which will result to a even worse result.

    You actually helped prove my point, that it's really NOT THAT IMPORTANT as far as which class will be asked or accepted in a party but if the class is played by a good player.

    A lot of runs now are done by 1 dc/cw combo or 1 dc-cw-sw or dc - sw combos and they are all smooth and fast (around 22-32m marks) in t9 and that by itself says something about your estimates. On the other hand I know a lot of "dream teams" (2xdc-gf-pally-dps) that cant even make it pass the 1st boss or fail most of times at last boss.

    We can keep going on for this but there is no point as again you didn't answer to my other points to keep the conversation and as always focus on the small details that add nothing.

    For me I dont see any point keeping this debate up just to feed your ego, and if you like to go on to prove something, the video of mine you posted proves the opposite. That a good MoF will do equally well and help its team same as a good HR or as a good SW etc etc.

    Once again Its good players that we need not good classes.

    Btw check this video too and see how much on and off is the double RoE. Specially at Withers and Ras the down time is at minimum and only if I get interrupted or pushed. I was still with ambush drake and not as much recharge speed as I'm used but far less lag Again the DCs had the buff bug (you can check from the date of the video posted) and the run would be a LOT faster if the buffs were there. On the Avatar I had the spheres and of course I couldn't keep up the RoE as much.






    One more rhetorical question. If debuffs are so useless why do you recommend for every one to use debuff companion and for support debuff artifact and debuff enchants? Just a thought :)

    Post edited by oria1 on




  • niadan
    niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    > @c1k4ml3kc3 said:
    > @c1k4ml3kc3
    >
    >
    >
    > I have yet to be offered to run high end content....out of pity...lol
    >
    > That doesn't mean that you represent the majority of the CW community. Trust me.

    No, I and several other CWs represent what you CAN DO as a CW...if you try. Quite frankly this whole "Sad state of CW" thinking represents what you can do as a CW if you do not try.
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    There is a difference between testing how a mechanic works (which should always be done in a controlled environment) and evaluating a rotation, which is best done looking at the context of a situation (in this case, a boss fight). You had a video of a boss fight, I was curious if you could keep up ray and I looked at it about a month ago to see if you were keeping it up, you weren't. I am so glad you improved playing between the 2 videos though. That still doesn't justify stacking recovery through the roof though, considering it means that you are sacrificing a great deal of personal dps for...what? A 17.5% debuff which presumably is being added on top of an effective debuff value of, even at a conservative estimate, 250%? If you account for diminishing returns on debuffs you will go from 250%-260%, which is a 4% party dps increase? Seems like it is totally worth sacrificing all your dps for the ability to keep up a debuff that adds 4% to party dps.

    For future references, I am ignoring every statement about non optimized groups. If we assume a non optimized group, you may as well go SS thaum and forget the party because it is very likely that the dps can't play properly and you will be better off hard carrying. Your optimized group, will have debuff pets. This means at minimum on bosses you can assume ~150% effectiveness before accounting for class specific debuffs. You can quite reasonably, by picking 1 debuff on every class in the party, get to 200% effectiveness. This is not up for debate. I am making a reasonable, low assumption of what the party has, I could argue for more than 200%, which I won't do and in no circumstance does it make sense to include the mof first. If you are in a situation where you have 4 party members and are choosing a 5th, you don't ask, "what do the 4 party members bring to the 5th," you ask, "what does the 5th bring to the party."

    And FYI a trapper HR can keep up longstriders shot 100% of the time, they have feats which reduce cooldowns by a flat amount. Most of them do not prioritize spamming lss (because they are greedy HAMSTER), but some, like @jaegernl do. At the end of the day, what it comes down to is this. Objectively, assuming equally skilled and equally geared players, will a group complete a dungeon faster with a MoF Rene or another support?

    Compared to:
    • DO or AC DC? No.
    • Trapper HR spamming lss assuming no other HR? No.
    • Devotion or Protection OP assuming no other OP in the group? No.
    • DPS GF? No.
    • Fury HB SW? Probably not, but I am not 100% sure on that. Sorry to all the Fury SWs who just got compared to a support role.
    If the players are all fully optimized, it isn't going to happen. There are 6 support specs which are undeniably better than a MoF rene.

    On the subject of debuff pets. The debuff pets are better than alternative pets, therefor, use the debuff pets. If there was a pet that buffed party damage by 5% and stacked, everyone would be using that instead. The key words are, "better than the alternative." Are there alternatives to taking a MoF that are better? Yes. A MoF occupies a player spot not a companion spot, so we must compare it to other classes and not other companions.
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    @thefabricant

    What do you mean by hybrid dps/support MoF Thaum? Running CA would require higher recovery than usual Thaum builds have, wouldn't it?

    Assuming if you have full dps CW with capped arpen, crit and low recovery and also gear to go MoF Rene/Opp with high recovery, is it always better to run on dps (as 2nd dps) or it would depend on the group composition if you have both AC and DO DC and either OP or GF tank, or just 1 DC or none at all, and also possibly no class that can easily grant combat advantage? Would it be worth to go MoF Rene/Thaum with usual dps heroic feats and gear like on Thaum as well as crit sev feat instead 5% crit since the main dps and yourself should be crit capped, and then run CP+CC or CC+SoD on trash and CP+SoD on bosses? Or Thaum would still be better?

    You've mention you'd take SS CW over MoF Rene, I assume this is due to diminishing return on debuffs and also based on already having AC and DO DC in party, yes? Is there a specific reason for SS Thaum over MoF Thaum assuming the same gear and running passives CP+SS versus CP+CC? Wouldn't MoF Thaum perform better on single target? Can you say in what cases one is better than the other, I was always convinced that MoF should be better on bosses, or is SS performing better there?

    I have full DPS CW, have both SS/MoF Thaum (though I like MoF more) and MoF Rene/Thaum setups on the same gear, and I also have the full gear to go MoF Rene/Opp I enjoy playing. So far I ran T9G basically only on MoF Rene/Opp rather than on Thaum, and those runs were usually really smooth.

    @trzebiat#2067 on trash you don't really need to have high recovery, provided you have a snail and an AP gain cloak. Combustive Action itself generates AP when targets die, which means it is quite easy to keep it up on trash fights, the issue only occurs on bosses (which is when I would switch to swath). I find for personal dps SS always performs better. Smoulder objectively does less damage than Storm Spell and if you are in a party with an OP, a large portion of your damage cannot crit (which makes the boost from crit conflag less meaningful. Swath/CA effectiveness depends on how many debuffs already exist. However, I would say both paths are definitely viable.

    @thefabricant So theoretically can run MoF Thaum with the same dps gear and stats priority (capped arpen, crit, rest in power, ignore recovery) and just switch INT belt with Company Cloak to Rubellite set for AP gain on trash to use CA?

    About SS vs MoF Thaum, I can see SS outperforming MoF on trash with more burst damage and SuS not having target caps compared to FtF single target off tab or ST with long casting time and 6 target cap. But on single target wouldn't MoF with extra crit sev from CC be better than SS when using Feytouched and CoI on tab for maintaining chill and single target spells like CS, Dis and RoE, or even FtF instead RoE for extra 5% damage buff from feats? Not sure if and when it's worth it to give up RoE though.

    I guess there's also possibility to take Destructive Wizardry sacrificing some points from Elemental Empowerment and/or Tempest Magic and/or Malevolent Surge (in boss fights without adds this one is useless anyway) and use fully charged Storm Pillar in rotation. Is that how would you go with SS Thaum?

    For pure DPS on single target without considering running SoD, with the same gear and feats and no issues running one or the other paragon path would you recommend going for SS or MoF, or working into rotation Destructive Wizardry on SS? I assume the usual rotation of CoI on tab, CS, Dis, RoE.

    One more question if you don't mind. Do you think running DPS MoF Rene/Thaum with CP+CC or CP+CA on trash for Nightmare Wizardry, if there is no class that can grant CA, is worth it? IIRC there was even one FBI speed run featuring MoF Rene running as DPS, Roth 2.0 I think, with damage close behind DPS GF. Is this a viable path as a hybrid DPS/support?
    @trzebiat#2067 Roth was SS Rene and he was praying for Fury procs on bosses. They were basically taking CW along as an extra dps and hoping for a useful chaos magic proc. if there is no other class that gives CA it is worth having a loadout for it, but there are very few situations where that is the case. In a worst case scenario (which means there is an OP in the group and you have high hp+a proc weapon enchant), Storm Spell is down to 10% of your dps, in that same scenario, smoulder is down to 1% or even less. Crit Conflag adds 20% crit sev. Lets say you only have 80% crit sev and crit conflag takes you to 100, assuming all your dps can crit, this is an 11% dps increase. This means if somehow Aura of Courage could crit, the extra crit severity would put MoF and SS about even. However... AoC will be at least 25% of your DPS, which means at least 25% of it can't crit. As you can see in that case, MoF still loses.

    In T1 and T2 content I do not use Destructive Wizardry and I use an icy Veins loadout, since T1 and T2 content is basically just about burst. In T3 content, I use an Icy Veins loadout on Trash and a loadout with Destructive Wizardry+Abyss for bosses. In the T3 dungeons you have time to precast Storm Pillar before the boss appears, which lets you benefit from the buff.
  • pjohnny1
    pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    niadan said:

    > @c1k4ml3kc3 said:

    > @c1k4ml3kc3

    >

    >

    >

    > I have yet to be offered to run high end content....out of pity...lol

    >

    > That doesn't mean that you represent the majority of the CW community. Trust me.



    No, I and several other CWs represent what you CAN DO as a CW...if you try. Quite frankly this whole "Sad state of CW" thinking represents what you can do as a CW if you do not try.

    No , you and a small group of CW's represent what a very small group of people can do with a CW . The overwhelming majority of CWs will not do what you and that small group will . This is not a " if you try " issue its a time or money issue . Either you have the time to grind it out or the money to speed it up . Skill will only get you so far and then its all about the gear , right companions , bonding stones and enchants , boons , the right legendary mounts , epic insignias , insignia bonuses , potting , and food . I know I am probably forgetting a few things but you get the picture. This is a divide the size of the grand canyon between the group your comparing to the rest of the population of CWs/any class.

    Already been stated that high end BIS CW's is in the top 3 . Anyone know where CW sits at the minimum ilvl ? Are they still top 3 ?


    Hey niadan your elitism is showing abit bud might want to tuck it back in , also your hat is looking a tad bit small for your head.
  • niadan
    niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    @pjohnny1
    Want some cheese to go with that wine? So if a long term CW disagrees with the moaning and groaning over the "pitiful" state of the CW, he is an elitist jerk? Gotta love the logic there.

    I personally love this class. I main this class, and hate when it is misrepresented by peeps that do not share the same level of commitment to furthering the class and helping others learn and enjoy the greatest class in NW. I guess that does qualify me as an elitist jerk as I think all other classes are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...except DC and Pally of course. ;)

    Btw, try some context before makimg sweeping comments about ego and my big noggin...I was responding to the pity party comment.
    Post edited by niadan on
  • mamalion1234
    mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,379 Arc User
    edited October 2017
  • mamalion1234
    mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,379 Arc User
    pjohnny1 said:

    niadan said:

    > @c1k4ml3kc3 said:

    > @c1k4ml3kc3

    >

    >

    >

    > I have yet to be offered to run high end content....out of pity...lol

    >

    > That doesn't mean that you represent the majority of the CW community. Trust me.



    No, I and several other CWs represent what you CAN DO as a CW...if you try. Quite frankly this whole "Sad state of CW" thinking represents what you can do as a CW if you do not try.

    No , you and a small group of CW's represent what a very small group of people can do with a CW . The overwhelming majority of CWs will not do what you and that small group will . This is not a " if you try " issue its a time or money issue . Either you have the time to grind it out or the money to speed it up . Skill will only get you so far and then its all about the gear , right companions , bonding stones and enchants , boons , the right legendary mounts , epic insignias , insignia bonuses , potting , and food . I know I am probably forgetting a few things but you get the picture. This is a divide the size of the grand canyon between the group your comparing to the rest of the population of CWs/any class.

    Already been stated that high end BIS CW's is in the top 3 . Anyone know where CW sits at the minimum ilvl ? Are they still top 3 ?


    Hey niadan your elitism is showing abit bud might want to tuck it back in , also your hat is looking a tad bit small for your head.
    So tell us 8500 control wizard will be very bad in dungeon run ( elol for example ) comparing to any other 8500 item level class?
  • oria1
    oria1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    "And FYI a trapper HR can keep up longstriders shot 100% of the time, they have feats which reduce cooldowns by a flat amount"

    But you are stating what I said

    "but because you might say its not Combat HR but a Trapper HR...."

    Even being trapper which most HRs don't, the overall damage is lower by 14% and you don't comment on that fact but you just repeat it as if I didn't say it.

    I also know there is a difference between testing environment and actual situations which is why I posted both dungeon and dummy and didn't cherry pick one. After all if a CW gets interrupted or pushed so is a DC or SW and every class and there goes some buffs/debuffs. Please remember tho you also do this on your comments too sometimes. Should I remind you the infamous "AC/DC needs a buff story" on the bondings subject because you excluded few factors that assist on DC power sharing that are not present on a dummy but are on a real dungeon? Funny how things turn.

    "I am so glad you improved playing between the 2 videos though"

    Thank you too for the kind words but no, I didn't, improve, You should notice the dates as the video. The video I posted second was a run previous to the the video you posted first. As I said it was the lag and the fact I didn't have enough recharge speed. Which validates my point and not yours. It's possible to have 2x RoE on a boss reliably and with a high uptime and now I can do it at even higher ratios.

    "That still doesn't justify stacking recovery through the roof though"

    What justifies stacking recharge speed and AP gain (not necessarily just from recovery) is not an individual skill as you single it out but the whole concept: I can have both combustive 24% and RoE 35% which is 59% on all the time while others wont. After all I don't need power as even with my low power CW I'm constantly at 220-260k plus. So extra recharge speed make me do more damage by increasing rotations and dailies I can do per min which is still very good.

    Lets say I am at 230k power and I remove 15 k recovery and add 15k power I will get 5% more Personal damage and that isn't reason enough.

    "DPS gf.. No" if the GF isn't dps?
    "Trapper HR spamming lss assuming no other HR? No."As I showed you even trapper does less but you keep saying no.
    Also without any disrespect to the person you just mentioned because you know one that does, that doesn't mean everyone does.
    "Fury HB SW? Probably not" and sorry but SW and specially templock does just fine. What it lucks in buffs it can cover with care free heals and personal DPS.

    So to conclude we should all play GWF, DPS GF, Pally and DC and erase the other classes despite the fact that a lot of the "non optimal groups" do runs with evenly good times which on all honesty makes the "optimal group" not so optimal.

    To be honest I'm done with this elitist approach that makes specific requirements and a LOT of IFs and presents them as a general rule.

    Just check the "IF" and how you keep "forgetting" other skills feats etc in just 3 comments.

    "...A party can reliably achieve 200% effectiveness without a MoF rene (+100% debuff), if you add in combustive+Swath and assume there is no diminishing returns, you would get 269%. This is a 34.5% party DpS increase."
    Why not Roe on mastery too and bitter cold which its another 40% debuff and fury is another 10% buff?

    "...If the second DpS does the same damage as the first DpS"
    No need to say anything here.

    "...provided you have a snail.."
    Cause yes everyone is using one

    "pretend you can perma keep up 2 stacks of RoE"
    I could and I can tho.

    "On the subject of debuff pets. The debuff pets are better than alternative pets, therefor, use the debuff pets. If there was a pet that buffed party damage by 5% and stacked, everyone would be using that instead. The key words are, "better than the alternative." Are there alternatives to taking a MoF that are better? Yes. A MoF occupies a player spot not a companion spot, so we must compare it to other classes and not other companions."

    So for a dps to have a pet that does 10% debuff.. which at 200% with the diminishing returns it will be less at about 7% and the dps increase from 200% to 207% is 3.5% and when its dead half the time even less (remember, real situations) its better than 3 archons and siege (6%*7%*8%*4%) and add erinyes for a always on 4.5% increase in dps regardless of death, assuming that now most DPS don't use vorpal and their crit severity isn't that high anymore. We still have to account the death ratio (and pushes, stuns etc) which also makes the companion to restart the skill rotation and delay the debuff even more.
    You are right "The key words are, "better than the alternative."
    So even if its just 1 % its better and better is better... Let alone on higher debuff scenarios it will be even lower and as you said a optimal party can keep the debuffs even higher so... I guess the debuff companion for DPS is even lower damage increase.

    "DPS GF? No."
    because every GF is a dps gf and a good one at that.
    "..Trapper HR spamming lss..."

    Not going to say what will happen if ANY of the above or a combo of them isn't met what the outcome will be.

    No need to expand on this as in the new module with the companion that gives 5% vs bosses I guess no dps will use the debuff companion so how much will the debuffs be then? (With your assumption for an ideal party the DPS GF and DPS pally and DPS main class so 3?)

    Anyway since you wont answer anything else that is not about optimal group and I don't answer to comments that draw the wrong picture and over generalize a certain scenario no point for either of us to keep going right? But something tells me you will comment again.... I wish I'm wrong

    And we should have this chat in 3 weeks :)

    I wonder tho why did those kills went so fast on those videos if I only add 35% dps. (or less)


    Run out of cents...


    Post edited by oria1 on




  • pjohnny1
    pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    @niadan

    More of a beer guy and prefer peanuts with that . Disagreement is good means you have a point of view . You are trying to compare the small bis min/max group of CWs to the rest of the CW community . Like comparing apples to oranges . Sure they both are fruit but completely different in taste , texture and color . Same goes for your average CW and a bis CW . Both CW but going to have very different results when it comes to performance .

    Are you not a bis CW ? Nothing wrong with being part of the elite part of the community. You used yourself and others of this community to imply that the rest of the communinty as a whole should perform as well . What would you call this when the rest of the community is nowhere near your ilvl and you compare yourself to them ?
  • niadan
    niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    @pjohnny1

    And you are implying that you and your views represent the rest of the cw community. I honestly do not believe that the rest of the cw community is so down in the dumps.
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    @oria1

    If you are at 200% effectiveness and you contributed a 140% debuff, it would be downgraded to under 280% effectiveness, (slightly under 279%) which means LSS contributes more. I just opened my spreadsheet that has actual debuff vs expected debuff where I just added 1 sellsword at a time and looked at which value was closest to 280% actual debuff and the expected debuff value for that was between 340 and 350%. I ignored your maths because it was not relevant since it was a random example I was making and not the point of my post. An HR contributes more than just lss and I specifically said, "I would prefer a 40% buff to a 140% debuff." So, if you want to count dps contribution from hr as well as hr debuffs (the class has quite a few) be my guest. I wasn't even saying MoF can debuff 140% (it can't so that isn't even relevant) it was just a value a picked since it was closest to lss. Think about this, even if you could debuff 140% by yourself, it would be in the process of a multitude of abilities. An HR just needs to press 1 button to do the entire work of your spec and they still have more buttons to press.

    Debuff pets are bis 1) because they benefit the entire party and there is more than 1 person that dpses and 2) because the only time they are bad is if you are playing MoF. Without a MoF and without the pets you will be anywhere between 50% and 90% debuffs. If there is no MoF in the party, global bis. I know though, you are so eager for players to stop using them, just so that your spec becomes more useful. Perhaps you should start campaigning for dps to stack only 65% crit chance so that your nexus buff becomes useful as well.

    As far as converting from reco to power, be realistic, you would be putting that reco into crit and arp. It isn't hard to find your spec here. You stack power and reco, you are probably not capped on arp and you are definitely not capped on crit. You aren't going to only be gaining 5% dps, depending on how much crit and arp you are gaining (especially arp), you could even be doubling your dps. Also, you don't need anywhere near that recovery to keep up combustive action, provided you use snail+ap gain cloak.

    As for your run..Your run was, "fast" because of the rest of the group, it would still be fast, even without the mof. Take that run with @wickedduck22#9795 in it, put him in a bis buff group and watch the run finish in 16 minutes and then what? You can stop epeen stretching and saying, "this run was fast because there was a mof" when its not relevant, it doesn't prove anythings and there are groups that can do it much faster. You can carry someone through tong and still finish it in 20 minutes provided the other 4 can play properly.

    Finally, on the subject of, "what if the hr/gf/whatever" well, let me turn that on its head and say, "what if the mof cw sucks" which is just as likely. It is a non argument. You don't argue about people who don't know what they doing because then you can make arguments like, "tong is unbeatable," etc. We are arguing about people who can actually think and who know how to build and play their toon since it is an apples and oranges comparison to compare those who can play to those who cannot.

    At the end of the day, feel free to play whatever spec you like, just don't lie about what your spec can do. I know what a MoF can (and can't) do and I know in an objective comparison it is worse than other support specs.
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