Totally agree, we need the cw bug fixes. Specially that offhand storm feat bonus. Me and Mystic do amazing dps because we always use full potion buffs and best gear. We both have the exact build if anyone is wondering. I still haven't found any cw that can beat me in game when I actually try, pretty sure because of my game play experience on cw. And yes every other class hits harder then us on bosses, we can only outplay every other class with trash clearing. I been working on my DC(do) dps class and it already hits harder then my cw on bosses when I actually get hits because its hard landing hits with dc. Got a 61m Daunting Light hit on turtle last week. I can easily get every class to outdps my cw but I choose not to because I just enjoy cw more then every other class and I can't keep up with the new gear/boons on every class. Anyways hope they do fix bugs on cw, been waiting to long for this. Everyone is to focus on getting everything nerf and class balances... how about fix stuff and add more content like add a 3rd paragon for every class.
example creeping frost vs warped magics same run .
creeping frost here.
warped magics.
WAtching the two screenshots i will say they need to fix specially the warped magics to hit with the correct effectiveness compare to other feats-powers.
And the storm spell additional hit from offhand we cant be sure if is a bug.
if in 1090 storm spell in a tomb of nine gods the 105 are critical then the phrase :"specially that offhand storm feat bonus " do not make any sense.
Totally agree, we need the cw bug fixes. Specially that offhand storm feat bonus. Me and Mystic do amazing dps because we always use full potion buffs and best gear. We both have the exact build if anyone is wondering. I still haven't found any cw that can beat me in game when I actually try, pretty sure because of my game play experience on cw. And yes every other class hits harder then us on bosses, we can only outplay every other class with trash clearing. I been working on my DC(do) dps class and it already hits harder then my cw on bosses when I actually get hits because its hard landing hits with dc. Got a 61m Daunting Light hit on turtle last week. I can easily get every class to outdps my cw but I choose not to because I just enjoy cw more then every other class and I can't keep up with the new gear/boons on every class. Anyways hope they do fix bugs on cw, been waiting to long for this. Everyone is to focus on getting everything nerf and class balances... how about fix stuff and add more content like add a 3rd paragon for every class.
example creeping frost vs warped magics same run .
creeping frost here.
warped magics.
WAtching the two screenshots i will say they need to fix specially the warped magics to hit with the correct effectiveness compare to other feats-powers.
And the storm spell additional hit from offhand we cant be sure if is a bug.
if in 1090 storm spell in a tomb of nine gods the 105 are critical then the phrase :"specially that offhand storm feat bonus " do not make any sense.
The only thing of any use in that combat log is the fact that Warped Magics only crits on the Initial hit, otherwise it shows nothing useful. Also, remove the Storm Spell offhand bonus and replace it with CP offhand bonus and see how often it crits. If the answer is, "0% of the time" you can pretty safely say it is only the offhand bonus that can crit.
Totally agree, we need the cw bug fixes. Specially that offhand storm feat bonus. Me and Mystic do amazing dps because we always use full potion buffs and best gear. We both have the exact build if anyone is wondering. I still haven't found any cw that can beat me in game when I actually try, pretty sure because of my game play experience on cw. And yes every other class hits harder then us on bosses, we can only outplay every other class with trash clearing. I been working on my DC(do) dps class and it already hits harder then my cw on bosses when I actually get hits because its hard landing hits with dc. Got a 61m Daunting Light hit on turtle last week. I can easily get every class to outdps my cw but I choose not to because I just enjoy cw more then every other class and I can't keep up with the new gear/boons on every class. Anyways hope they do fix bugs on cw, been waiting to long for this. Everyone is to focus on getting everything nerf and class balances... how about fix stuff and add more content like add a 3rd paragon for every class.
example creeping frost vs warped magics same run .
creeping frost here.
warped magics.
WAtching the two screenshots i will say they need to fix specially the warped magics to hit with the correct effectiveness compare to other feats-powers.
And the storm spell additional hit from offhand we cant be sure if is a bug.
if in 1090 storm spell in a tomb of nine gods the 105 are critical then the phrase :"specially that offhand storm feat bonus " do not make any sense.
The only thing of any use in that combat log is the fact that Warped Magics only crits on the Initial hit, otherwise it shows nothing useful. Also, remove the Storm Spell offhand bonus and replace it with CP offhand bonus and see how often it crits. If the answer is, "0% of the time" you can pretty safely say it is only the offhand bonus that can crit.
Yes is the offhand but maybe it doesnt have the same rule ( non critical) . And as i said 105 hit out 1090 isnt something make it a must fix if need fix.
Also you can see in that combat log the warped magics with bitter cold debuff the effectiveness is 102.5 and not 105.
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Cw is in very good place comparing to other classes. Is the most balanced class and also can use almost all the powers and feats ( excluding shard of the endless avalanche, arcane power fied, frost wave , imprisoment, evocation)
Control( matter if we cant control a boss? in exchange we have the focus wizardry and other tools for a boss). Damage and aoe and the single target are good. Weapon damage very good for a range class with the above. ALL three trees viable ( pve and pvp). 2 paragons viable.
Bad time you can say about sw even gwf having just 1 tree to play....
@mamalion1234 I wasn't complaining about the crits the fact that it doesn't take advantage of lvl 4 spellstorm is what I'm complaining about. Eh, I would love it to crit 100% of the time if anything lmao
Love that despite its in library first commenters are GWFs and SWs...
Yes. CWs single target dmg is not so good. We are good on trash but this game is all about burning down bosses. (after mod5) For example: In Tong. Before Orcus there is 100 million total dmg and we are usually on the first place. After Orcus there is about 1100 million total dmg and we are far behind.
Maybe we can do 20-30% better dmg on trash as HR/GWFs. But our single target dmg is vastly under theirs.(40-80% maybe) I think even a GF, TR or a Soulbinder SW can do our single target dmg or more.
CW was made for bringing down the trash fast or control them but nowadays dungeons lacks trash. Started with Lair of Lostmauth which I despise since...
I don't have any CW toon, but I think that CWs are in a good place right now. You cannot ask a controller-striker class , able to bring good to very buffs, to be top dps over pure striker classes ! CWs are already able to do amazing damage and some dungeons are full of "trash" mobs (msp..), so at the end, the balance is good. Besides, storm and flame CW are viable.
Some other classes REALLY need developers attention, and apart some bugs (did I mention that all classes have bugs?), CW don't.
The CW is a good fun class to play and hold's it's own in most dungeons and situations in PvE. But something has changed... and I think there is a pattern. The last few mods have come out with a new 'top-level' tough dungeon. And each time the CW does not appear to be in the 'party' of choice... apart from near maxed individuals we are jack-of-all trades and masters of none... except 'control'... but we all know that 'big bosses' can't be controlled... even for short periods of time. But this problem appears only to be temp. When the next Mod comes out there is enough 'new stuff' to get us CWs into the old 'top dungeon' (if we can be bothered)... it's a bit sad really... for example - TONG needs two DC's (kind of...) and how many LFMs do we see needing a DC or OP! Haven't seen a LFM for a CW, TR, HR, SW for a while apart from the odd MOF '... other players just appear to believe there are better options for parties than taking a CW... and this I suspect is the issue CW's currently have... we really are good at a certain type of dungeon, skirmish, soloing etc. and they are fun (never to be understimated) but we come unstuck when a dungeon requires that major 'boss' which is both v.hard and needs specialist stratgies! So having played CW OP (I know!) and transitioned to a MOF (ty Sharp) to keep me on the 'sales list'; I'm now a bit stuck on how next to evolve (its part of the game) and have been looking at the forums to see if there is an obvious way to increase the DPS or/and Buff... so looking to change the Trans Plaguefire, the Imperial set, chuck in more Radiant Enchants etc. So the CW's are good, fun and recently a bit behind the curve... but while a bit of control on some of the big bosses would bring us right back... I'm resolved to get better; just need to work out how!
Love that despite its in library first commenters are GWFs and SWs...
Yes. CWs single target dmg is not so good. We are good on trash but this game is all about burning down bosses. (after mod5) For example: In Tong. Before Orcus there is 100 million total dmg and we are usually on the first place. After Orcus there is about 1100 million total dmg and we are far behind.
Maybe we can do 20-30% better dmg on trash as HR/GWFs. But our single target dmg is vastly under theirs.(40-80% maybe) I think even a GF, TR or a Soulbinder SW can do our single target dmg or more.
CW was made for bringing down the trash fast or control them but nowadays dungeons lacks trash. Started with Lair of Lostmauth which I despise since...
I don't have any CW toon, but I think that CWs are in a good place right now. You cannot ask a controller-striker class , able to bring good to very buffs, to be top dps over pure striker classes ! CWs are already able to do amazing damage and some dungeons are full of "trash" mobs (msp..), so at the end, the balance is good. Besides, storm and flame CW are viable.
Some other classes REALLY need developers attention, and apart some bugs (did I mention that all classes have bugs?), CW don't.
CWs can't do both "amazing" dps and buffing/debuffing at once. It's one or the other.
Love that despite its in library first commenters are GWFs and SWs...
Yes. CWs single target dmg is not so good. We are good on trash but this game is all about burning down bosses. (after mod5) For example: In Tong. Before Orcus there is 100 million total dmg and we are usually on the first place. After Orcus there is about 1100 million total dmg and we are far behind.
Maybe we can do 20-30% better dmg on trash as HR/GWFs. But our single target dmg is vastly under theirs.(40-80% maybe) I think even a GF, TR or a Soulbinder SW can do our single target dmg or more.
CW was made for bringing down the trash fast or control them but nowadays dungeons lacks trash. Started with Lair of Lostmauth which I despise since...
I don't have any CW toon, but I think that CWs are in a good place right now. You cannot ask a controller-striker class , able to bring good to very buffs, to be top dps over pure striker classes ! CWs are already able to do amazing damage and some dungeons are full of "trash" mobs (msp..), so at the end, the balance is good. Besides, storm and flame CW are viable.
Some other classes REALLY need developers attention, and apart some bugs (did I mention that all classes have bugs?), CW don't.
CWs can't do both "amazing" dps and buffing/debuffing at once. It's one or the other.
Don't get me wrong, at least you have these capabilities because CWs are very versatile. And I know some CWs really able to fit both roles alltogether (even if yes they will lose some damage on bosses).
I wonder what you want except being a broken overpowered class because it seems you want to be TOP dps on bosses, TOP on trash, TOP controller (and off-tank?), TOP buffer and debuffer. Stop being selfish.
And about your sentence "I think even a GF, TR or a Soulbinder SW can do our single target dmg or more"--> it is exactly what it should be because TR and SB SW are crappy on trash and have hardly any utility to the party, TR and SW should even outdps GWF and HRs on bosses . For GF, it is more questionable because they are currently overpowered as dps imo.
Post edited by werdandi#8366 on
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
I wonder what you want except being a broken overpowered class because it seems you want to be TOP dps on bosses, TOP on trash, TOP controller (and off-tank?), TOP buffer and debuffer. Stop being selfish.
And about your sentence "I think even a GF, TR or a Soulbinder SW can do our single target dmg or more"--> it is exactly what it should be because TR and SB SW are crappy on trash and have hardly any utility to the party, TR and SW should even outdps GWF and HRs on bosses . For GF, it is more questionable because they are currently overpowered as dps imo.
You can't call somebody selfish because they "seem to want..." something, and you're missing the point. This isn't about breaking up damage into categories as you've done, and wanting to be TOP in all areas. It's about the overall outcome for the DPS paragon class - and it *is* bad times. First thing to understand is that the support and DPS roles of a CW are not just psychological. Played to potential, the paragon is different, the gear is different, that stats are different, and even the race. At potential, they are different characters. The support (MoF) is not in a bad place. They have a lot to offer in the current meta. The DPS CW, however (most favoured player option, and so different in many, many ways - at potential), is simply outclassed and unwanted for the current mods.
The truth about TRs is that they have some rarely known tricks at potential for amazing DPS, and SWs actually have far more utility at potential than people realize. Still, we should focus on the playing experience of the average to very good players - so TRs and SWs should get some "DEV love".
The days of breaking it down to mob vs boss dmg etc, and even mentioning "Control" belong in the Neverwinter history books. DEVs have done absolute zero for CWs since their great nerfs 2 years ago. When they finally did some class balancing work, they completely ignored the GWF and the CW. Every single great gear option has been melee/GWF focussed (Tenser disk, Lostmauth set, Baphomet set). It used to be that the massive imbalance was for a relative handful, but we've had so many x2 RP and lately easily obtained top-line gear, that the problem is now game-wide at a class level.
As the latest mods come out, there's no good place for DPS CWs. Every DPS class is doing significant enough mob damage. Other DPS classes are doing much better boss damage. As a DPS CW you have bad speed, bad DPS, and you're squishy - relative to other classes at the same full potential/gear level.
The bottom line is that parties looking for people in the latest, toughest dungeons, are not looking for DPS CWs - whatever you believe is happening with mob damage, boss damage, or Control.
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
Ok, so here's an example from a CN pug queue straight to the last boss a short while ago. A near-BIS GWF rocks up, and destroys the boss in seconds, doing 65% of the total damage in the fight. The no 2 in DPS that fight was a BIS DPS CW, doing 1/3 the damage of the GWF. Yes, the buff/debuffs are at 190% efficiency, which is the current meta, and does exaggerate the differences - but not the % difference. https://imgur.com/a/GvjaN
Essentially, the GWF is pumping out at-wills of 0.6 million damage per strike. This is nothing new. Now, after all the x2 RP sessions and easy hand-out of near BIS gear - it's actually commonplace.
This is the reason that mod 12 is a disgraceful failure. They finally brought in the tough content, but they didn't fix up the bad class imbalances first. This is why the party makeups are what they are for mod 12 - Nine Gods.
You really can't get an accurate picture of what's really going on by listening to the few that bother to post in these forums. Check out the charts above wondering about crit status for Warped Magics, in a post entitled "Bad Times for CW". It's looking at Neverwinter through a tiny lens, ignorant of the big elephant in the room. Check out link about GWF at-will damage. That will explain to you why it's "Bad Times for CW" in module 12. You need to actually look at what's happening out there: - Just check in occasionally (use Social search/Find Other for "nine gods") and see who's actually playing it as DPS. It's a massive GWF domination. - Spend many, many hours running around solo in Chult, and take note of the other solo runners. In my experience, over many, many hours, it's about 80% GWF. Why? Because not only do they have the DPS to solo T-Rexes, but they're also tough enough for it.
Tough content is here, and, for DPS, if you're a GWF, you're blessed. If you're an HR, it's not too bad. Other than that - it's bad times.
Tough content is here, and, for DPS, if you're a GWF, you're blessed. If you're an HR, it's not too bad. Other than that - it's bad times.
More accurate statement, but still, I think that CWs are the 3rd more desiderable DPS class (taking into account their utility) of the moment.
You're probably right. In my guild we have 2 TRs well above CW using some secret techniques, and an SW that has far more utility than CWs can hope for. Whilst these represent the current *potential* of the classes via some brilliant theorycrafters, they are certainly not representative of the typical to very good player experience. These guys need some DEV love.
Being 3rd though, is still a big miss for module 12. The gap between 1/2 and no 3 is very wide. The gap between 3/4/5 is not that wide at all.
Keep in mind too, that the DPS CW has seen zero change for 2 years, when 1000s of players left the game after very deep nerfs. Latest DEV talk (twitch) is about some TR love, and nothing for CWs.
So.... "Bad Times for (DPS) CW".
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
What. CW. Bad. Dps? No, just no, CW can have monster damage output for both single target and aoe.
Jaime, click on the link I gave you above, showing a GWF smashing out 0.6 mill at-wills. You talk about what you consider to be "monster damage", but I show you numbers that obviously dwarf what you consider "monstrous". When it comes to class balance, people say all sorts of things, and express all sorts of opinions, for various reasons. You have to let the numbers show the clear truth. The numbers that BIS HRs and GWFs do, compared to BIS TRs, SWs and CWs.
In the end, whatever you or I think of as being "monster damage", it's the results that matter, and across the Neverwinter gaming landscape, the evidence is very, very clear.
Let's ignore whatever either of us think of as monster DPS, and how about you state that you can't see a great disparity with the viability of TR/SW/CW in mod 12 (nine gods), compared to GWF and perhaps HR. That's the bit that matters. Are you prepared to say that?
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
This is now just a veiled NERF GWF post. I would say work on your own class to play better, or roll a GWF. Also, CWs solo T-Rexes every single day.
I know how much you worry about a GWF nerf, but it's not about that. It's simply about how irrelevant other DPS classes are. They can boost other classes instead. In the case of CW, they could make Control a valuable, wanted thing again. While you're preciously guarding your massive advantage, others in the game are suffering inequitably.
I don't think the DEVs would nerf GWF anyway. Were you around when they nerfed CWs very badly 2 years ago, and many 1000s left the game? They pretty much learned a lesson there, and had a no-nerf policy for about 1.5 years, until they started re-balancing a while back. Even then, they did nothing to help the CW, and barely touched DPS GWFs. Something clearly needs to be done, but I don't think it will be a GWF nerf. They'd be too scared. Arguing against change with "play your class better" doesn't work, isn't fair, and perpetuates what has become a fairly broken MMO.
@lukejones77 GWF is a class that heavily relies on at-wills to dps, what did you expect? They're one of its main sources of damage so of course they need to hit very hard. Just because CW at-wills aren't a significant portion of its dps doesn't mean that you should expect other classes not to have them as main sources of damage and complain about it.
Statement from Freedom on this very same thread:
"No, cw don't have the worst survive ability. About not being needed for higher level content, I can't really say that applys to me because I can keep up with the best gwf in this game or even beat them, Sure I can't ever hit as hard as them but I can melt bosses pretty quick. If other cw's wanna do the same thing they should really do their research on what gear/feats/companions they should be using. I have seen almost every cw in the game with dumb gear on for example cw should not be running orcus set or just any random set or artifact. All cw should go read sharp's guide if they really wanna improve their cw. I myself have to see what I'm gonna have to change for next mod since theirs more nerfs coming.. yay x.x
This part he said is very relevant: If other cw's wanna do the same thing they should really do their research on what gear/feats/companions they should be using. I have seen almost every cw in the game with dumb gear on for example cw should not be running orcus set or just any random set or artifact. All cw should go read sharp's guide if they really wanna improve their cw.
You have the same available gear and items he does, why is there a difference between his dps and yours? Simple, is not the class, it's something you are doing.
CW does not need any dps buffs whatsoever, Freedom, Sharpedge and other good CWs out there have proven the class is more than capable of top tier dps. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sharpedge beat Unforgiven (top tier GWF) in dps when running T9G on preview and if I recall correct it was on a boss fight.
You class is aoe dps king and still hits very hard in single target dps, there should be a tradeoff, being top aoe and top singlet target dps is not precisely balanced. As per overall perfomance, CW is in a very good spot now.
Is the most balanced class and also can use almost all the powers and feats ( excluding shard of the endless avalanche, arcane power fied, frost wave , imprisoment, evocation)
Always loved that sentence! Thats because our own CW testers are reporting our bugs! It could be a good things but no other classes "testers" are doing it...
We have no gamechanger bugs unfixed because all was reported and fixed a gazillion years ago. Very big difference compared to for example Hunters which i am tired of hearing that if only this or that would be fixed...
I don't have any CW toon, but I think that CWs are in a good place right now. You cannot ask a controller-striker class , able to bring good to very buffs, to be top dps over pure striker classes ! CWs are already able to do amazing damage and some dungeons are full of "trash" mobs (msp..), so at the end, the balance is good. Besides, storm and flame CW are viable.
Some other classes REALLY need developers attention, and apart some bugs (did I mention that all classes have bugs?), CW don't.
I can and I do!
I don't really care that multiple paragon is "viable" thank you very much!
Let me guess? HR? If that bugs would be fixed they should get immediate nerf!
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
I ran with sharp quite a few times on my hr. Of the last 3, The first two times I beat him but not by too much, but the last was unforgettable. In fbi he went ape and beat me almost by about 80 mil and there were no deaths in either of those runs. They were all done within the time span of a month but we were both actually doing our best and after that last run he even told me himself that he believes that cws outdps hrs in 5 man groups and are 2nd to gwfs if built right. I almost agree. He definitely gives me a run for my money as a near bis hr. I've seen freedom as well and that dude melts things like crazy. I wasn't able to match him at the time due to great but seeing the best of each class, freedom, sharp, tardli, wicked, etc. Tells me something. It's not the class (with the exception of the sws, seen trs hold their own even after nerf), it's more often the player who isn't maximizing their class mechanics. Cws really are an amazing and versatile class.
I ran with sharp quite a few times on my hr. Of the last 3, The first two times I beat him but not by too much, but the last was unforgettable. In fbi he went ape and beat me almost by about 80 mil and there were no deaths in either of those runs. They were all done within the time span of a month but we were both actually doing our best and after that last run he even told me himself that he believes that cws outdps hrs in 5 man groups and are 2nd to gwfs if built right. I almost agree. He definitely gives me a run for my money as a near bis hr. I've seen freedom as well and that dude melts things like crazy. I wasn't able to match him at the time due to great but seeing the best of each class, freedom, sharp, tardli, wicked, etc. Tells me something. It's not the class (with the exception of the sws, seen trs hold their own even after nerf), it's more often the player who isn't maximizing their class mechanics. Cws really are an amazing and versatile class.
I have to agree with this. All the classes has a few individuals that no matter the general perceived state of there class they seem to go above and beyond the rest. So the question then is, if one can do then why cant the others? Is it a in-depth knowledge of the games mechanics and/or how to utilize there class's skills/feats in conjunction with the games mechanics? Is is maybe their personal playstyle? Or maybe they are in a group where everyone there knows that skills support the dmg dealer and how to best assist that player?
On a side note trying to gauge one classe's dmg output should be done in a stand alone group, IE 4 support. Not racing with another dps in the group. As well as in a substantial dungeon like ToNG or MSVA. The reason being that FBI and below the trash packs simply die to fast and the first person to hit them will kill them,.. ie us HRs sprint the the aoe pack and drop PG and 2 at-wills and its dead before anyone else gets a hit in or vice versa with a CW bombing them from afar. You need Boss mobs that you literally cant burst down in under a minuet. Burst favors certain classes a hell of a lot more than others.
Comments
creeping frost here.
warped magics.
WAtching the two screenshots i will say they need to fix specially the warped magics to hit with the correct effectiveness compare to other feats-powers.
And the storm spell additional hit from offhand we cant be sure if is a bug.
if in 1090 storm spell in a tomb of nine gods the 105 are critical then the phrase :"specially that offhand storm feat bonus " do not make any sense.
Yes is the offhand but maybe it doesnt have the same rule ( non critical) . And as i said 105 hit out 1090 isnt something make it a must fix if need fix.
Also you can see in that combat log the warped magics with bitter cold debuff the effectiveness is 102.5 and not 105.
the rest have average 105%.
Is the most balanced class and also can use almost all the powers and feats ( excluding shard of the endless avalanche, arcane power fied, frost wave , imprisoment, evocation)
Control( matter if we cant control a boss? in exchange we have the focus wizardry and other tools for a boss).
Damage and aoe and the single target are good.
Weapon damage very good for a range class with the above.
ALL three trees viable ( pve and pvp).
2 paragons viable.
Bad time you can say about sw even gwf having just 1 tree to play....
You cannot ask a controller-striker class , able to bring good to very buffs, to be top dps over pure striker classes !
CWs are already able to do amazing damage and some dungeons are full of "trash" mobs (msp..), so at the end, the balance is good.
Besides, storm and flame CW are viable.
Some other classes REALLY need developers attention, and apart some bugs (did I mention that all classes have bugs?), CW don't.
CWs can't do both "amazing" dps and buffing/debuffing at once. It's one or the other.
And I know some CWs really able to fit both roles alltogether (even if yes they will lose some damage on bosses).
I wonder what you want except being a broken overpowered class because it seems you want to be TOP dps on bosses, TOP on trash, TOP controller (and off-tank?), TOP buffer and debuffer. Stop being selfish.
And about your sentence "I think even a GF, TR or a Soulbinder SW can do our single target dmg or more"--> it is exactly what it should be because TR and SB SW are crappy on trash and have hardly any utility to the party, TR and SW should even outdps GWF and HRs on bosses .
For GF, it is more questionable because they are currently overpowered as dps imo.
It's about the overall outcome for the DPS paragon class - and it *is* bad times.
First thing to understand is that the support and DPS roles of a CW are not just psychological. Played to potential, the paragon is different, the gear is different, that stats are different, and even the race. At potential, they are different characters. The support (MoF) is not in a bad place. They have a lot to offer in the current meta. The DPS CW, however (most favoured player option, and so different in many, many ways - at potential), is simply outclassed and unwanted for the current mods.
The truth about TRs is that they have some rarely known tricks at potential for amazing DPS, and SWs actually have far more utility at potential than people realize. Still, we should focus on the playing experience of the average to very good players - so TRs and SWs should get some "DEV love".
The days of breaking it down to mob vs boss dmg etc, and even mentioning "Control" belong in the Neverwinter history books.
DEVs have done absolute zero for CWs since their great nerfs 2 years ago. When they finally did some class balancing work, they completely ignored the GWF and the CW. Every single great gear option has been melee/GWF focussed (Tenser disk, Lostmauth set, Baphomet set).
It used to be that the massive imbalance was for a relative handful, but we've had so many x2 RP and lately easily obtained top-line gear, that the problem is now game-wide at a class level.
As the latest mods come out, there's no good place for DPS CWs. Every DPS class is doing significant enough mob damage. Other DPS classes are doing much better boss damage. As a DPS CW you have bad speed, bad DPS, and you're squishy - relative to other classes at the same full potential/gear level.
The bottom line is that parties looking for people in the latest, toughest dungeons, are not looking for DPS CWs - whatever you believe is happening with mob damage, boss damage, or Control.
A near-BIS GWF rocks up, and destroys the boss in seconds, doing 65% of the total damage in the fight.
The no 2 in DPS that fight was a BIS DPS CW, doing 1/3 the damage of the GWF.
Yes, the buff/debuffs are at 190% efficiency, which is the current meta, and does exaggerate the differences - but not the % difference.
https://imgur.com/a/GvjaN
Essentially, the GWF is pumping out at-wills of 0.6 million damage per strike. This is nothing new. Now, after all the x2 RP sessions and easy hand-out of near BIS gear - it's actually commonplace.
This is the reason that mod 12 is a disgraceful failure. They finally brought in the tough content, but they didn't fix up the bad class imbalances first. This is why the party makeups are what they are for mod 12 - Nine Gods.
You really can't get an accurate picture of what's really going on by listening to the few that bother to post in these forums. Check out the charts above wondering about crit status for Warped Magics, in a post entitled "Bad Times for CW". It's looking at Neverwinter through a tiny lens, ignorant of the big elephant in the room. Check out link about GWF at-will damage. That will explain to you why it's "Bad Times for CW" in module 12.
You need to actually look at what's happening out there:
- Just check in occasionally (use Social search/Find Other for "nine gods") and see who's actually playing it as DPS. It's a massive GWF domination.
- Spend many, many hours running around solo in Chult, and take note of the other solo runners. In my experience, over many, many hours, it's about 80% GWF. Why? Because not only do they have the DPS to solo T-Rexes, but they're also tough enough for it.
Tough content is here, and, for DPS, if you're a GWF, you're blessed. If you're an HR, it's not too bad. Other than that - it's bad times.
What. CW. Bad. Dps? No, just no, CW can have monster damage output for both single target and aoe.
Being 3rd though, is still a big miss for module 12. The gap between 1/2 and no 3 is very wide. The gap between 3/4/5 is not that wide at all.
Keep in mind too, that the DPS CW has seen zero change for 2 years, when 1000s of players left the game after very deep nerfs. Latest DEV talk (twitch) is about some TR love, and nothing for CWs.
So.... "Bad Times for (DPS) CW".
You talk about what you consider to be "monster damage", but I show you numbers that obviously dwarf what you consider "monstrous". When it comes to class balance, people say all sorts of things, and express all sorts of opinions, for various reasons. You have to let the numbers show the clear truth. The numbers that BIS HRs and GWFs do, compared to BIS TRs, SWs and CWs.
In the end, whatever you or I think of as being "monster damage", it's the results that matter, and across the Neverwinter gaming landscape, the evidence is very, very clear.
Let's ignore whatever either of us think of as monster DPS, and how about you state that you can't see a great disparity with the viability of TR/SW/CW in mod 12 (nine gods), compared to GWF and perhaps HR. That's the bit that matters. Are you prepared to say that?
They can boost other classes instead. In the case of CW, they could make Control a valuable, wanted thing again. While you're preciously guarding your massive advantage, others in the game are suffering inequitably.
I don't think the DEVs would nerf GWF anyway. Were you around when they nerfed CWs very badly 2 years ago, and many 1000s left the game? They pretty much learned a lesson there, and had a no-nerf policy for about 1.5 years, until they started re-balancing a while back. Even then, they did nothing to help the CW, and barely touched DPS GWFs.
Something clearly needs to be done, but I don't think it will be a GWF nerf. They'd be too scared.
Arguing against change with "play your class better" doesn't work, isn't fair, and perpetuates what has become a fairly broken MMO.
Statement from Freedom on this very same thread:
"No, cw don't have the worst survive ability.
About not being needed for higher level content, I can't really say that applys to me because I can keep up with the best gwf in this game or even beat them, Sure I can't ever hit as hard as them but I can melt bosses pretty quick. If other cw's wanna do the same thing they should really do their research on what gear/feats/companions they should be using. I have seen almost every cw in the game with dumb gear on for example cw should not be running orcus set or just any random set or artifact. All cw should go read sharp's guide if they really wanna improve their cw.
I myself have to see what I'm gonna have to change for next mod since theirs more nerfs coming.. yay x.x
@jano Yes, I'm Freedom"
This part he said is very relevant:
If other cw's wanna do the same thing they should really do their research on what gear/feats/companions they should be using. I have seen almost every cw in the game with dumb gear on for example cw should not be running orcus set or just any random set or artifact. All cw should go read sharp's guide if they really wanna improve their cw.
You have the same available gear and items he does, why is there a difference between his dps and yours? Simple, is not the class, it's something you are doing.
CW does not need any dps buffs whatsoever, Freedom, Sharpedge and other good CWs out there have proven the class is more than capable of top tier dps. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sharpedge beat Unforgiven (top tier GWF) in dps when running T9G on preview and if I recall correct it was on a boss fight.
You class is aoe dps king and still hits very hard in single target dps, there should be a tradeoff, being top aoe and top singlet target dps is not precisely balanced. As per overall perfomance, CW is in a very good spot now.
Thats because our own CW testers are reporting our bugs!
It could be a good things but no other classes "testers" are doing it...
We have no gamechanger bugs unfixed because all was reported and fixed a gazillion years ago.
Very big difference compared to for example Hunters which i am tired of hearing that if only this or that would be fixed... I can and I do!
I don't really care that multiple paragon is "viable" thank you very much!
Let me guess? HR?
If that bugs would be fixed they should get immediate nerf!
On a side note trying to gauge one classe's dmg output should be done in a stand alone group, IE 4 support. Not racing with another dps in the group. As well as in a substantial dungeon like ToNG or MSVA. The reason being that FBI and below the trash packs simply die to fast and the first person to hit them will kill them,.. ie us HRs sprint the the aoe pack and drop PG and 2 at-wills and its dead before anyone else gets a hit in or vice versa with a CW bombing them from afar. You need Boss mobs that you literally cant burst down in under a minuet. Burst favors certain classes a hell of a lot more than others.