How can you want more dps when you won't put the time in to get it. Don't speak for the casual crowd because casuals will never have top dps. That's why we see so many trash gwfs now. The class is so easy to play yet people STILL suck at it. You don't have to be Sharp to maximize damage but you do have to be alert and knowledgeable. The thing about it is if one can do it why can't you?
Careful about assuming a lack of effort from people not seeing results, and remember that it's still a game, even if some spend massive time doing stuff like compiling spreadsheets of all the possible buffs, the conditions that trigger them etc etc etc . It's still a game.
out of the blue Sume and a few others came out with their builds. Suddenly hrs are kicking names and taking butt like never before because we adapted and learned.
Careful about assuming that the answers for every class are just a build and gear. There are a handful of TRs and SWs holding onto some very nice build tricks, but I don't believe that this is the case with DPS CW. I believe that the shining CWs are using far more than a special class build to get results, a much wider holistic solution, to do with knowledge on buffs, debuffs, specific run knowledge, and simply great player timing.
So is the problem the actual class itself or the people that might not be putting the actual work in?
I love your idea of "putting the actual work in", and lets play that out. We rock up to Neverwinter, one of the grindiest MMOs, gear up in our class equipment and "get to work" earning astral diamonds. Thing is, some classes are effectively been paid at a much higher rate than others for their work. Their tools are simply easier and more effective to work with. It's dangerous work, and their protective clothing is a lot better. There's a chart that shows work effectiveness, and they look really, really good on that chart, in part because they're naturally a lot faster at getting to the work and largely completing it before the slower classes get a chance. Then the day comes when the work gets tough. The previous work was easy, and the work crew was happy to take anyone along and get the job done. Yeah, certain classes were naturally gifted on that performance chart, and the company bonuses favoured them with reward drops, but it was ok...ish.
Now, it's different. Now the work is harder, and it takes longer. Now, to get through the massive grind of all the work that has to done, work crews are taking far more notice of those performance charts. You're starting to see very clear patterns of viable work crews being formed. They're built for success, cutting down on the total grind time of the work, and certain classes of worker are clearly missing from those successful work parties. Could the gaps really be that bad? Why would the company that hands out the work give certain classes of worker such inferior tools to other classes, and make it so much harder for them to go off on their own and do overtime without needing a full work crew? It's problematic. They know that when they take away good tools and give out bad ones, workers quit. Workers get used to their working conditions, and do not put up with having them taken away. The other thing is that you can get the best tools by buying them off the company. If you're a struggling class worker, you're a lot more likely to spend your money, trying to be a viable worker that gets to enjoy doing their work. Turns out, this is the big trick for the company. Their business is all about getting workers to buy better tools, but not making the tools so bad that the workers leave the company.
Of course, amongst those depressed worker classes, there are some shining examples. These workers stand out far above their depressed brethren, having learned to deal with tools that perform much more poorly, having learned to get every inch out of those tools, having worked hard to get the very latest and best models of the tools available to their class. Above all, they've learned how best to synergize with other classes and look a lot better on that performance chart. Now, I'm all for doing those things that the shining class examples do. But, I am concerned if people point to the shining examples of the class, saying "See? There! Those few workers are doing just fine. Your class tools are just fine. You just need to work harder. I know it looks easy for the other classes, but if you work long enough, perhaps pay for better tools, and study enough with your tools" you can get there." The shining examples are happy. They enjoy their work, do it well, and they're famous for it. The wider the gap between them and the average worker, the more famous they are. They are famous. Thing is, their class does have a problem - that's the reason they're famous in the first place. The company loves them too. The more workers that believe all they need is better tools to be like the shining examples, the better the company does selling better tools. The danger is, when those workers figure out that best tools was only part of the equation, and they're sitting with a large gap, having to invest far more than they realized - in what was supposed to be a fun work place.
Personally, I like working hard on my class, and I even refused to join work crews that used to have this "perma bubble" tool in the past. Problem is though, the scene I described doesn't make for healthy work place. Workers get disgruntled. They feel that their class is discriminated against. They're not a welcome part of the fun work crew place that the company said they provided. They stop coming to work. Oh , wait a minute - that's already happening...
LOL, I know I sound like a union rep here - very much not my intention (just how the word "class" plays out), but perhaps just spend a little time thinking about the bigger picture? If the company creates equal opportunity for hard workers to be successful, you'll have a far healthier work place, with far less class discrimination, and less reason for workers to leave the company, to go "work" elsewhere.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
My main CW is a SS renegade. His build has rarely changed since the beginning of the game. I don't claim to be a Top CW player, in fact I am no where near the top. I play casually, very casually as of late. Heck, I'm barely over 10k IL on him and I do just fine in most content. Yeah, I don't PvP nor have any desire to so if this feeling of CW inadequacy is over PvP, then that is a whole different ball-game to me. I also play mostly solo content but even the group content, I have little worries but then again, I have never cared for out-dpsing other players. If others you play with care so much that you're not out-dpsing them, then I suggest to find different players to play with. There's no reason to be competitive with the DPS chart in PvE content.
If you're having a hard time on your CW, then instead of calling foul on the class, I suggest to make a new thread in the CW Class forum where you detail your character's chosen stats, feats, boons, skill rotation, and equipment choice and ask for advice on where to improve.
Edit: I don't even go for any current meta for the class. I stick to a theme of lightning and arcane, which I have done so since Alpha. I rarely even use any frost abilities which are so commonly seen with the dps-focused players. I will only slot Chill Strike when I am in a Dungeon. Otherwise, I stick to purely Lightning/Arcane stuff. So, coming from me who doesn't even follow a high dpsing spec and has below average IL for being around since the beginning, I still am quite capable of holding my own in most content.
Just because you enjoy a playstyle that's "unique" doesn't mean there isn't issues with the class or that the enjoyment of others that prefer some competitive aspects aren't worth listening to.
As I've purveyed in my posts in this thread, the only thing I am denying is the OP's sentiment that CW's are in "bad times." On the contrary, despite any issues that may need addressing, the CW class is in the best place it has been since before Mod 2. I never said anything about player's input not being worth listening to. I think you're reading my posts wrong if you come to that conclusion.
My main CW is a SS renegade. His build has rarely changed since the beginning of the game. I don't claim to be a Top CW player, in fact I am no where near the top. I play casually, very casually as of late. Heck, I'm barely over 10k IL on him and I do just fine in most content. Yeah, I don't PvP nor have any desire to so if this feeling of CW inadequacy is over PvP, then that is a whole different ball-game to me. I also play mostly solo content but even the group content, I have little worries but then again, I have never cared for out-dpsing other players. If others you play with care so much that you're not out-dpsing them, then I suggest to find different players to play with. There's no reason to be competitive with the DPS chart in PvE content.
If you're having a hard time on your CW, then instead of calling foul on the class, I suggest to make a new thread in the CW Class forum where you detail your character's chosen stats, feats, boons, skill rotation, and equipment choice and ask for advice on where to improve.
Edit: I don't even go for any current meta for the class. I stick to a theme of lightning and arcane, which I have done so since Alpha. I rarely even use any frost abilities which are so commonly seen with the dps-focused players. I will only slot Chill Strike when I am in a Dungeon. Otherwise, I stick to purely Lightning/Arcane stuff. So, coming from me who doesn't even follow a high dpsing spec and has below average IL for being around since the beginning, I still am quite capable of holding my own in most content.
Just because you enjoy a playstyle that's "unique" doesn't mean there isn't issues with the class or that the enjoyment of others that prefer some competitive aspects aren't worth listening to.
As I've purveyed in my posts in this thread, the only thing I am denying is the OP's sentiment that CW's are in "bad times." On the contrary, despite any issues that may need addressing, the CW class is in the best place it has been since before Mod 2. I never said anything about player's input not being worth listening to. I think you're reading my posts wrong if you come to that conclusion.
Zebular, I notice that you don't distinguish between the support role and the DPS role. MoF = good place, but I don't think that the DPS CW has ever been as "left out" of the prevailing meta as in the new module release. You really don't see that?
[Edit 1:] And by the way, just took a quick look at the 36 players currently in Nine Gods. 1 MoF, 0 SpellStorms, and a ton of DCs, tanks and GWFs. Numbers tell a much better story than opinions.
[Edit:2] And another hour later, only 35 players in Nine Gods. 0 MoFs, 1 SpellStorm and again a ton of DCs, tanks and GWFs. What's going on? Why few few people in a module's flagship dungeon? Where are the CWs not experiencing bad times?
I have to agree with Zeb here. I have played nothing but a dps cw (ss) for what now...almost 5 years. We are in a great spot. Would I like some more buffs? Of course...who would not want more? Do I NEED more buffs to be competitive...no. Am I always the top dps...more often then not. Does it matter to me...nope (ok it does a little). Smooth fast runs with like minded peeps is all that matters.
Quite frankly, I believe that TR and SW need more work (pve) than we do at the moment. Now those classes really do need some love from the devs. And after they give them some attention, they should revert the Spell Storm Crit and cool down nerf as a gift to the CW community for being such classy, unselfish characters.
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
I have to agree with Zeb here. I have played nothing but a dps cw (ss) for what now...almost 5 years. We are in a great spot. Would I like some more buffs? Of course...who would not want more? Do I NEED more buffs to be competitive...no. Am I always the top dps...more often then not. Does it matter to me...nope (ok it does a little). Smooth fast runs with like minded peeps is all that matters.
Quite frankly, I believe that TR and SW need more work (pve) than we do at the moment. Now those classes really do need some love from the devs. And after they give them some attention, they should revert the Spell Storm Crit and cool down nerf as a gift to the CW community for being such classy, unselfish characters.
I would argue SW needs some serious tweaks for pvp as well, Fury capstone tickles enemies and overall damage is not a threat to good players.
@lukejones77 this thread in a nutshell for you and the original poster:
I don't want to bother understanding the class better nor putting the effort to improve my toon yet I expect my toon be able to keep up/out dps BiS and properly played GWF/HR, that's not the case though therefore CW dps is in a bad spot now!
Others (myself included) have pointed it out and I'm doing it again, it is not CW underperforming, you are doing something wrong, you should make a new thread here on the CW section and post info regarding your toon (build, stats and what your loadouts are), people should quickly notice what you are doing wrong and give you advice accordingly.
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
@lukejones77 this thread in a nutshell for you and the original poster:
I don't want to bother understanding the class better nor putting the effort to improve my toon yet I expect my toon be able to keep up/out dps BiS and properly played GWF/HR, that's not the case though therefore CW dps is in a bad spot now!
Others (myself included) have pointed it out and I'm doing it again, it is not CW underperforming, you are doing something wrong...
I must admit, between those two paragraphs, I'm kinda confused, but I'm reasonably sure that your essentially saying you're the hero that will beat any other class, so CW is just great, and I'm wrong. Well, that's great. You are, after all, perhaps the premier example of the shining light CWs I referred to two of my posts back. The point I'm trying to make however, is that there can be superhero CWs, like you, and it doesn't mean that there isn't a problem with the class (1 post back). You've made a bold claim, and you may be right. If so, I'm really happy for you - in fact, wish I was you... sort of. The point I'm actually making, is the state of the class generally, and how the class is faring, generally. I already stated I know how happy the super heros of the class are. My build? I don't care that much. I never turn on those HUD indicators that show everyone's damage indicators, or (super important), clue me into what buffs have have triggered from my party members. I prefer the more immersive experience of the game, and I'm happy to take the DPS hit that comes from it. I'm also happy to take the hit that comes from playing the race I prefer, rather than the most optimal class for my DPS. So, whilst I appreciate your idea for me to start a thread to help me with my build, no thanks! Sorry if you got the impression I was personally after help. What does concern me, is the perception of relevance of the DPS CW in the current meta. Personally, I think that critical issues are more to do with gear and buff/debuff management than the classes themselves (that's where the superheros blaze in complete with capes), but I think that some classes get a very easy ride, while others have to work super hard and smart to get to the same place. This is where you find class superheros, but also where you find bias against certain class paragon roles.
My take is, that's not a healthy place for the game, and you end up with, well... what we currently have. Maybe amongst your friends, and within your guild, you're not seeing a real degradation of the classic MMO Neverwinter happy gaming experience that would occasionally shine through. You know, "Hey, there's 5 of us online - tank, healer and 3 DPS. Let's go do Tong!!!". If you're not seeing a problem, I don't know what to say. The truth is, perhaps everyone knows you well enough to take you on any run, but if you truly believe that the generic DPS CW is going to be see seen anywhere near favorably when compared with a generic HR or especially GWF, then , well, ......
And, by the way, those "generic" players, the non-elite - I understand that they're typically the ones paying the real money, trying to catch up to what they see you do, keeping one of the greatest games alive. It would be nice if their spend actually sees them get a fair result, gear for gear, in any chosen class. Just saying...
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
@lukejones77 this thread in a nutshell for you and the original poster:
"I don't want to bother understanding the class better nor putting the effort to improve my toon yet I expect my toon be able to keep up/out dps BiS and properly played GWF/HR, that's not the case though therefore CW dps is in a bad spot now!"
Others (myself included) have pointed it out and I'm doing it again, it is not CW underperforming, you are doing something wrong, you should make a new thread here on the CW section and post info regarding your toon (build, stats and what your loadouts are), people should quickly notice what you are doing wrong and give you advice accordingly.
Greetings! So what we have for now(mod 12) in dmg: GWF outdps CW HR outdps CW TR(yeah, SoD ~25mil) outdps CW GF(in conq) outdps CW SW outdps CW
If devs additional fix couple cw "dps-bugs", which @thefabricant posts - even DC will outdps us Cheers, cw 16.6
Others here have stated more than once to provide info on your build and your rotation along with gear, companions, and enchantments. Besides that info knowing your stats prior to bonding and after bonding will help the experienced and long time CW may provide insight on how to improve your damage.
One thing I noticed is that this game allows us to literally pay our way to the top. With $150 you get a fresh 70 character with all campaigns completed. Than if you want some good gear go ahead and transfer Zen into AD and you can get the full on MasterCarft Manticore gear, strong hold mastercart weapons, enchantments, correct companions, companion gear, mounts, enchantments, etc...
I estimated that a player wishing to be close to BiS without playing can do so for around $2500-3000 and be in a very good spot. Does that player have the knowledge of how to play the class, NOPE...and I have seen a few of these type of players running around with Legendary mounts, R12 enchantments, mastercraft gear and weapons, etc... The funny thing is these players really stink and do not really understand the class and its mechanics. Now if you did this for a PVP only character and your main is the same class than yeah that player would be fairly skilled, though with loadouts this makes little to no sense. The point I am trying to make is that some of the players who play a CW could of simply bought their way to end game.
I am not sure how a DC would out DPS a CW? CW is the only class I know that provides a 30% boost on single target abilities with a 10% damage loss on our AoE abilities. Since we have another feat that boost our AoE abilities it is smaller damage loss. This means if you are using mainly AoE abilities on single targets you are taking a damage loss. If you swap in abilities that are single targets when going against single targets you will do more damage.
To often I see so many SS CW using all AoE abilities all the time. I see plenty using Conduct of Ice, Icy Terrain, Steal Time and Sudden Storm. If the ability is not able to change between single or AoE than it is a damage loss using so many AoE abilities on your character without modifying your loadout. This goes back to one of my other post discussing the need to adjust or modify ability in the tray or change to a new loadout. I have a single target and AoE loadout and I run as a MoF DPS.
Let me explain why I run a MoF DPS vs SS. It is my preferred paragon path. I tried to play SS many times now and simply did not like it. I rarely seen Storm Spell activate. I played through MC, VT, eToS, eGWD, etc...all the way to FBI as a SS and I just was not feeling or play style of the SS build. I than went back to a MoF and for me it just works better. This is due to me playing my character as a MoF from the start. I simply wanted to play him as a Flame wizard and I like how it works out for me.
As for your OP, you should be able to keep up just fine with 16K players. I am 3K behind you in IL and I have beaten plenty of higher IL character as well as been close to some BiS players in some of the harder content. Yeah CW has some bugs but what class doesn't in NW? CW is far from perfect but it is in a good spot.
For those who are complaining about your lack of damage, please share what content it was in, what was your abilities used and when, did you leave them for the whole run or swap them out, did you use loadouts, etc....the more info presented the better the responses will be from the experienced players who are not having issues.
I am far from a top CW but I like the class and IMO it is way better than my DC for damage. No idea how the OP thinks a DC will out DPS my CW. I seriously do not get that.
As a MoF I have options on how to play on single targets. For instance, I can use Swath or Crit Conflag. If I use Swath it helps not only me but the group. You cannot do that with a SS and sometimes, a bit less DPS by me but to give the group that bonus goes a long way at making content easier, especially now with mod 12 updates.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Greetings! So what we have for now(mod 12) in dmg: GWF outdps CW HR outdps CW TR(yeah, SoD ~25mil) outdps CW GF(in conq) outdps CW SW outdps CW
If devs additional fix couple cw "dps-bugs", which @thefabricant posts - even DC will outdps us Cheers, cw 16.6
Hr and cw are special cases in lesser degree the cw. Instead paingiver credit on feats-powers like abyss-gushing wounds and hunter teamwork on the classes that actually were responsible for those hit to happen it give the credit to the caster.
Hunter ranger gushing wound and hunter teamwork because those powers scaling from everything make hunter to seem a lot stronger than a wizard. Because wizard abyss of chaos do not scale with buff-debuff ( only with power i think ).
I believe both classes deal the same damage and great weapon fighter is above them because only damage can do and has the highest weapon damage and many self buff.
I point out those details we dont even know what is our damage when we use abyss as cw and gushing wound and hunter teamwork as hr .
Greetings! So what we have for now(mod 12) in dmg: GWF outdps CW HR outdps CW TR(yeah, SoD ~25mil) outdps CW GF(in conq) outdps CW SW outdps CW
If devs additional fix couple cw "dps-bugs", which @thefabricant posts - even DC will outdps us Cheers, cw 16.6
Hr and cw are special cases in lesser degree the cw. Instead paingiver credit on feats-powers like abyss-gushing wounds and hunter teamwork on the classes that actually were responsible for those hit to happen it give the credit to the caster.
Hunter ranger gushing wound and hunter teamwork because those powers scaling from everything make hunter to seem a lot stronger than a wizard. Because wizard abyss of chaos do not scale with buff-debuff ( only with power i think ).
I believe both classes deal the same damage and great weapon fighter is above them because only damage can do and has the highest weapon damage and many self buff.
I point out those details we dont even know what is our damage when we use abyss as cw and gushing wound and hunter teamwork as hr .
GWF - Most damage comes from At-Wills HR - Damage is split from At-Wills and Encounters TR - Highest damage comes in stealth CW - Damage comes from encounters
Each class benefits from a variety of feats, buff, debuffs companion setup, etc...you cannot compare a CW to a GWF as each class is different in how it plays, gear focus, enchantment focus, active companions, etc.... This is why balancing cannot happen like most would want. If you want true balance every class would be identical other than slight variation in animation of at wills, encounters and dailies.
The devs gave us variety instead. Each class has a unique way to produce damage.
- CW is through encounters and our damage is increased when we have chill and arcane stacks built up. - GWF buff in damage is from targets marked. - DC buffed damage is from empowered encounters - TR buffed damage happens when in stealth
Now each class is also better at certain type of enemies. - GWF is a balanced class in that it does good damage both on single and multi targets. - CW multi targets - TR Single Targets - SW single targets
The reason why GWF may seem broken is that it is balanced around doing damage regardless if there is 1 or multiple enemies. CW performs better when there are more targets to hit. SW and TR are better suited for single Targets. HR is similar to a GWF in that its damage is balanced around both single and multi.
You seem so focus to on worrying about the damage of a CW without looking at what content you are running, IL variance, stats variance, etc... all of these things can impact total damage out. Also, like I stated, if you go into a boss fight and there are not adds to kill and all you are doing is AoE abilities you are seriously hurting your damage potential since CW can get a 30% buff on single target abilities we use. So make some changes to your rotation/loadout on bosses and up to the boss you will be ok and than on the boss you should not lose much ground.
CW is in a good spot. Tweaks in either direction will make them weaker or overpowered. More so in the overpowered direction if they make spells work as intended.
CW takes timing, patience and precision above all else. It's not a class you can roll face on keyboard and win.
AoE isn't even where the money is at either. It's in single target. If a CW is struggling on single target, I'd suggest looking outside the cookie box. I for one had no issues topping on boss fights over every other class. I also didn't run the standard builds that majority run. I listed them but didn't run them. Same with enchants. I cannot stress enough to test on your own and experiment. Its the best way to learn this class to be honest.
And.....Topping charts is fun and can be a challenge. It's a competitive type of thing. We all get it. I focused on that. But the only thing that matters is did you have fun while getting that blue sapphire out of the chest at then end?
CW needs tweaks, absolutely no doubt about that. There are nonsensical powers and feats that are simply unusable because they were created for a different game, much older and very different version of neverwinter. Denying that is a fallacy. Giving your allies Arpen? in this day and age? Who doesn't cap that thing? And there are much more examples.
CW needs tweaks, absolutely no doubt about that. There are nonsensical powers and feats that are simply unusable because they were created for a different game, much older and very different version of neverwinter. Denying that is a fallacy. Giving your allies Arpen? in this day and age? Who doesn't cap that thing? And there are much more examples.
You want to talk bad feats, all classes have bad feats or feats that simply you ignore because they do not apply any more in the game. Most classes also only really use two of the paragon feat paths. My DC has been Righteous and both loadouts are also Righteous and he has been like that since the first time I respecced him.
My CW started off as a Renegade and with loadouts he now is both Renegade for buffing/debuffing but also a Thaum for DPS.
My tank is the lone class where I have 3 loadouts where each one uses a different paragon feat path. One for solo play the Conqueror, one for more defensive stance if needed Protector and one group buffing Tactician.
GWF really only have one build for PVE. SW is another class where you could use any of the three paragon path. OP is the third though most player I talk to who are OP use the Justice paragon path. Almost all TRs I talk to use the same paragon feat path.
The problem I see in this thread is that those complaining about the CW have a very narrow focus and from what I can tell they just want to be TOP DPS without any effort or thought on build, loadout and rotation. That is what I am reading.
The truth is, put on some glasses so you can get the bigger picture view as other classes and the game in general require the Devs attention more than the CW class.
CW isn't perfect ATM but it is in a better spot than others classes and usually updates result in things getting broken and later on the devs come back and make adjustments and the class ends up being worst off than it was prior to the update. So, please think about what you are asking the Devs to do.
For me, I want them to fix the bugs in content first and foremost. Than fix other areas in the game. Than fix the issues with class feats and abilities. After that, look at power sharing, how buff and debuffs stack, etc...after all of those fixes, than come back and make minor adjustments to each class as needed for class balancing.
Notice I made class balancing last and it should be as the game has many other areas that require fixing FIRST and FOREMOST.
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
and.... it WORKS! Players are pretty much looking for the "One Build", and GWFs have it: cheaply, easily, and highly skewed for "RNG" success. Occassionally, it's so blatant that the DEVS actually fix the problem - like getting a T-Rex fang. And... they DOMINATE DPS roles in the latest mod. Always was going to be a very obvious outcome, if ever DEVs started making content hard, without correcting balance.
The problem I see in this thread is that those complaining about the CW have a very narrow focus and from what I can tell they just want to be TOP DPS without any effort or thought on build, loadout and rotation. That is what I am reading.
Not correct. You clearly play multiple classes, and don't seem to be particularly dedicated to your CW as your (for some their only) main. Who told you they want to be "TOP DPS"? You brought that. Look around. Neverwinter has moved to the latest mod, and the DPS CW is NOT WANTED - let alone "TOP DPS". In truth, buffs/debuffs dominate class differences, so you can stick a DPS CW at the front of any great support party. It can work, but clearly there's a very, very strong bias against you. Just do regular searches to see which classes are running the latest dungeon. The gap between the CW class and the top two DPS classes is very, very wide. The top CW players here seem pretty happy - probably because (for a little while, but not much longer), DPS comes mostly from understanding how to maximize buffs/debuffs. For the average CW player, against, let's say, the average GWF player, it's a very sad state of affairs. You're such a second rate option for DPS, that you're looking to get carried in the latest content, by friends/guildies - a pretty unheroic state of affairs, especially if you've finally worked hard enough to maximize you class potential. Thing is, there is such a great gap between the top two choices and the CW, that it's clearly a problem. The current content is dominated by healers, tanks and "not CWs" for a DPS role. That is a problem. The problem should have a voice. This thread is such a voice.
The truth is, put on some glasses so you can get the bigger picture view as other classes and the game in general require the Devs attention more than the CW class.
Umm.... No. They get to complain about not being relevant enough for current content as a class in their class forums, and we get to complain about it in ours. That's how it works. If we have a perception problem with our class for the latest content, it's appropriate to post "Bad times for CW" here, irrespective of whether or not other classes should be doing it in their forums. It's inappropriate to suggest that we should be silent here, just because other classes also need DEV love.
For me, I want them to fix the bugs in content first and foremost. Than fix other areas in the game. Than fix the issues with class feats and abilities. After that, look at power sharing, how buff and debuffs stack, etc...after all of those fixes, than come back and make minor adjustments to each class as needed for class balancing.
None of that is a reason for CWs to be silent about their relevancy to current content. The problem with being prejudiced against for CURRENT content should be dealt with NOW - not at the end of a list of other things we hope DEVs will fix some day.
and.... it WORKS! Players are pretty much looking for the "One Build", and GWFs have it: cheaply, easily, and highly skewed for "RNG" success. Occassionally, it's so blatant that the DEVS actually fix the problem - like getting a T-Rex fang. And... they DOMINATE DPS roles in the latest mod. Always was going to be a very obvious outcome, if ever DEVs started making content hard, without correcting balance.
The problem I see in this thread is that those complaining about the CW have a very narrow focus and from what I can tell they just want to be TOP DPS without any effort or thought on build, loadout and rotation. That is what I am reading.
Not correct. You clearly play multiple classes, and don't seem to be particularly dedicated to your CW as your (for some their only) main. Who told you they want to be "TOP DPS"? You brought that. Look around. Neverwinter has moved to the latest mod, and the DPS CW is NOT WANTED - let alone "TOP DPS". In truth, buffs/debuffs dominate class differences, so you can stick a DPS CW at the front of any great support party. It can work, but clearly there's a very, very strong bias against you. Just do regular searches to see which classes are running the latest dungeon. The gap between the CW class and the top two DPS classes is very, very wide. The top CW players here seem pretty happy - probably because (for a little while, but not much longer), DPS comes mostly from understanding how to maximize buffs/debuffs. For the average CW player, against, let's say, the average GWF player, it's a very sad state of affairs. You're such a second rate option for DPS, that you're looking to get carried in the latest content, by friends/guildies - a pretty unheroic state of affairs, especially if you've finally worked hard enough to maximize you class potential. Thing is, there is such a great gap between the top two choices and the CW, that it's clearly a problem. The current content is dominated by healers, tanks and "not CWs" for a DPS role. That is a problem. The problem should have a voice. This thread is such a voice.
The truth is, put on some glasses so you can get the bigger picture view as other classes and the game in general require the Devs attention more than the CW class.
Umm.... No. They get to complain about not being relevant enough for current content as a class in their class forums, and we get to complain about it in ours. That's how it works. If we have a perception problem with our class for the latest content, it's appropriate to post "Bad times for CW" here, irrespective of whether or not other classes should be doing it in their forums. It's inappropriate to suggest that we should be silent here, just because other classes also need DEV love.
For me, I want them to fix the bugs in content first and foremost. Than fix other areas in the game. Than fix the issues with class feats and abilities. After that, look at power sharing, how buff and debuffs stack, etc...after all of those fixes, than come back and make minor adjustments to each class as needed for class balancing.
None of that is a reason for CWs to be silent about their relevancy to current content. The problem with being prejudiced against for CURRENT content should be dealt with NOW - not at the end of a list of other things we hope DEVs will fix some day.
LMAOROTFLOL....sorry your wall of post literally had laughing my HAMSTER off rolling on the floor laughing out loud...just wanted to share that with you before I go anything further.
How many have stated CW is in a fine spot? More poster than those like yourself complaining.
How many have stated to those complaining, provide feat allocation, loadout, rotation, companions, etc...? Yet those complaining state "I know what I am doing" without providing any of the info being request.
What players are comparing GWF and HR to CW? Those complaining about not being top DPS on the paingiver charts and wanting the CW to be stronger.
I'm sorry but you really need to stop with the complaining, because I stated, if the dev deliver what you ask, they will probably nerf it later on because it will become OP. And than CW will be actually worst than what it is today. So be careful what you ask the devs to do here or in any game, because on average, devs will make something OP and than nerf the HAMSTER out of it.
I have no problem with my CW damage. Maybe it is because I am willing to adjust my character to the situation and that has paid dividends. Simply not adjusting the character and leaving things as is in all fights will always results in a small lose of damage and sometimes a pretty big one if you do not make the proper adjustments.
This is another ask here...you state latest content. Ok.
So have you ran the content and compared your damage to say a GWF. Prior to comparing were both your CW and the GWF fairly close in IL? What about stats, were they fairly close? Companions, what were they using vs. what you were using? Gear, what are you using for gear vs. their gear? What is on there ability tray and do they modify it on a boss fight or leave it as is? What is on your tray and did you modify anything on the boss fights or leave it as is? Etc......
The problem I see in this thread is the complainers simply don't share information to warrant the complaint as they just go right for the complaint without providing any information that can be reviewed, analyzed and receive a response from the community.
Threads like this do not result in any movement or changes to class unless information is provided to support the claim. The only support that comes up is..GWF and HR do more damage than my CW. Well, that is nice can you share ABC and I have not seen a response providing ABC yet in this thread. That tells me, the CW that are getting beat, simply want to complain to complain instead of providing facts and data to improve.
I am going back to my floor now to continue laughing.
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
How many have stated CW is in a fine spot? More poster than those like yourself complaining. ... How many have stated to those complaining, provide feat allocation, loadout, rotation, companions, etc...? Yet those complaining state "I know what I am doing" without providing any of the info being request.
What players are comparing GWF and HR to CW? Those complaining about not being top DPS on the paingiver charts and wanting the CW to be stronger. ... I'm sorry but you really need to stop with the complaining, because I stated, if the dev deliver what you ask, they will probably nerf it later on because it will become OP. ... I am going back to my floor now to continue laughing.
You misread me. I didn't ask for more DPS. Where did I ask for more DPS? All that I asked for is the DPS CW to be a desirable option for current content. I pointed to DPS capability as a reason for the problem. There are different ways to solve that problem. Right now, a true DPS CW just doesn't bring enough, compared to other DPS options.
There is a really, really obvious problem with the DPS CW been considered a good option for making up parties in the latest content.
The answer is not in loadouts and rotations. I'm not talking about my own damage, but rather about how the class is functioning in the Neverwinter landscape for current content. If one class needs to be so clever and specific to become viable, then there's a problem with the class design. Forget individuals, but consider the averaging of load outs for a high functioning class compared to a poorly functioning class. If you missed that, perhaps I can understand your floor rolling. Another thing is understand is that there is a massive difference in been a good option for the old T2 dungeon runs, and the current tough runs. Been able to tear apart T2 content with DPS does not make you a good option for the current tough content.
I give you the breakdown is it is in TONG right now: 8 DCs, 6 Pallies, 5 GWF, 2 GF, 1 SW, 1 HR, 1 MoF (support CW), 0 DPS CW
The pattern for TONG is very, very clear (I check very frequently) - DCs, tanks and GWFs as the DPS. This is a problem.
Doesn't matter if the best CWs here are quite happy with how they're doing. As I stated, buffs/debuffs dominate, and the smartest players willl (at the moment) do very well, regardless of class. Nevertheless, beneath that layer, across the board, at a class level, the DPS CW clearly has a problem with relevancy in current content. Maybe you're busy rolling on the floor because of what you imagined I said, instead of what I actually said?
I was laughing because instead of you taking the time to form your own group you are here complaining about CWs. You know all the time you spent here writing about how to fix the CW so you can get into a group, you could have used that time to form your own group. That is why i was laughing.
An example of forming a group with a CW is when I first unlock FBI on my CW, instead of coming here crying about how I cannot get into groups do to my IL or class, I spent time in the game forming groups and beating FBI as both a buffer and eventually a DPS on my CW. You know how I fared as a DPS, well I was top DPS the times I ran with GWF and HR that were 1.5+ higher IL than I was. I am not quite sure how you can state the CW are in a bad spot.
The community requesting specific class group makeup is very common in MMOs. Many MMOs require tanks and healers and most MMOs you will find it easier to join groups if you play a class that plays as that role. In NW we can add buffer to that group. CW have the buffing option, so there is that if you want to get into content as a CW.
The thing with any MMO and the DPS builds, the classes that have high burst and quick damage output tend to be preferred to burn through content. HR and GWF have this, CW is a slower build up as we need to get 5 stacks in chill and arcane to really start to shine. In longer fights, where we do not have a daily already built up, CW are fine, but on quicker fights where we cannot build up our stacks we tend to lose out on damage.
Best option for you is to form your own group. No one is stopping you from doing that other than yourself.
CW is not horrible. I know plenty of players who quit their man, TR, to play other classes such as DC, GF, OP, etc...simply because that class is harder to achieve damage than HR, CW and GWF. CW is not as bad as you think and the only one stopping you from getting into the latest content is you.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
CW is in a good spot but the class need a review to some feats/powers/features that are completely useless/broken.
As any class if you want to be better at it you must optimize. You cant claim that you want to put the feats / powers / anything else you want, click buttons randomly and be top at anything. Play the game like you like ofcourse but dont claim to be the best if you dont want to learn the mechanics and optimize the build / rotations / etc.
I agree that the DPS path could have a BIT more dmg in form of the capstone for example, but I play since the day one and I can say the class is in a very good position in group contribution. Other thing is the brainless group meta that someone post in a forum and everyone follows.
I played as DPS SpellStorm or Debuff / DPS Master of Flame in any content in the game and I can say I am very wellcome in any ToNG group. Maybe some GWF or HR do more dmg than me and what? I feel that I contribute more than them with the control (and buffs/debuffs if MoF) a CW can add. The thing that matters is the speed of the run and CWs contributes a lot making runs easier and faster.
Here is my warning to the CW's (I have one but I don't play her much, though she seems like fun)
The TR's have been asking for help, the have been begging. The community put together entire lists of what can be done to make us viable.
And they have nerfed us in EVERY SINGLE UPDATE. Just a thought - perhaps it's best to be left alone. At least you guys are still wanted (at least on console)
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Here is my warning to the CW's (I have one but I don't play her much, though she seems like fun)
The TR's have been asking for help, the have been begging. The community put together entire lists of what can be done to make us viable.
And they have nerfed us in EVERY SINGLE UPDATE. Just a thought - perhaps it's best to be left alone. At least you guys are still wanted (at least on console)
What's funny is that CW is getting buffed in Mod13 due to fixing some weird bugs (Storm Spell related bugs). I suppose that's the advantage of having the local mad scientist be a CW guy, eh?
Of course, if Blighting Power gets fixed (because multiplicative stacks), then that's a nerf.
But on the plus side, at least us non CWs get to break out some popcorn and watch the rest of the NW Illuminati chase down Sharp...
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
CW needs tweaks, absolutely no doubt about that. There are nonsensical powers and feats that are simply unusable because they were created for a different game, much older and very different version of neverwinter. Denying that is a fallacy. Giving your allies Arpen? in this day and age? Who doesn't cap that thing? And there are much more examples.
Not every build in neverwinter is around power critical penetration stats. Especailly the support builds go power recovery many of them. So especially for those builds i find useful uncertain allegiance and the chaotic nexus. With the upcoming nerfs on bondings would be nice a cleric for example while he focused to power recovery and some critical to able to critical more often his heals. OR a tank with low critical chance to make sure able to hold the threat dealing more damage because of critical hit .
OFcourse would be nice the fury to proc but for the above reasons the nexus is not bad at all. About growth that is more pvp .
Here is my warning to the CW's (I have one but I don't play her much, though she seems like fun)
The TR's have been asking for help, the have been begging. The community put together entire lists of what can be done to make us viable.
And they have nerfed us in EVERY SINGLE UPDATE. Just a thought - perhaps it's best to be left alone. At least you guys are still wanted (at least on console)
What's funny is that CW is getting buffed in Mod13 due to fixing some weird bugs (Storm Spell related bugs). I suppose that's the advantage of having the local mad scientist be a CW guy, eh?
Of course, if Blighting Power gets fixed (because multiplicative stacks), then that's a nerf.
But on the plus side, at least us non CWs get to break out some popcorn and watch the rest of the NW Illuminati chase down Sharp...
Wait isnt normal blightning power multiplicative ( as the other buffs?).
Yes, the way the buff interacts with other buffs/attacks is multiplicative and is working as intended.
The way it ranks up is not working as intended.
What it does: 1.06 ^(number of ranks).
With 3 ranks, your damage buff looks like:
1.06^3 = ~1.191016
Sharp's got his "Eye of the Illuminati" Class feature equipped, maybe he can care to explain this better... or maybe he's already packing his bags to get ready to go on the run...
Yes, the way the buff interacts with other buffs/attacks is multiplicative.
The way it ranks up is not...
What it does: 1.06 ^(number of ranks).
With 3 ranks, your damage buff looks like:
1.06^3 = ~1.191016
Sharp's got hit "Eye of the Illuminati" Class feature equipped, maybe he can care to explain this better... or maybe he's already packing his bags to get ready to go on the run...
See...be careful what you asked the devs to do...
If CW take a hit...I will not blame sharp as he does his communication properly. It is individuals that cry for the CW to be fixed to be better as a DPS and typically when the devs FIX stuff it results in a nerf.....
Here is my warning to the CW's (I have one but I don't play her much, though she seems like fun)
The TR's have been asking for help, the have been begging. The community put together entire lists of what can be done to make us viable.
And they have nerfed us in EVERY SINGLE UPDATE. Just a thought - perhaps it's best to be left alone. At least you guys are still wanted (at least on console)
Are you using Becky yet. I mean how many times do I have to tell you to play Becky. I mean every time you touch a character class you end up making that class nerfed..I know you been or Morigan recently..shame on you..
Now go play Becky all month, leave all your other toons alone.
Here is my warning to the CW's (I have one but I don't play her much, though she seems like fun)
The TR's have been asking for help, the have been begging. The community put together entire lists of what can be done to make us viable.
And they have nerfed us in EVERY SINGLE UPDATE. Just a thought - perhaps it's best to be left alone. At least you guys are still wanted (at least on console)
Are you using Becky yet. I mean how many times do I have to tell you to play Becky. I mean every time you touch a character class you end up making that class nerfed..I know you been or Morigan recently..shame on you..
Now go play Becky all month, leave all your other toons alone.
I did pull Becky out for Scrub runs... I will have to get her out more often, she got new shoes. The GWF community will be crying by the time I am done playing Becky
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
I was laughing because instead of you taking the time to form your own group you are here complaining about CWs. You know all the time you spent here writing about how to fix the CW so you can get into a group, you could have used that time to form your own group. That is why i was laughing.
You misread me, and again you assume too much. I'm personally not bothering to unlock TONG (no points spent on the middle path of the campaign tree), so the whole idea of you laughing that I could have better spent my time forming a group, is... laughable. Nothing about my opinions on latest content is based on difficulties of personal experience. Rather, it's based on what is clearly evident across the Neverwinter gaming landscape.
I posted months before TONG was released that the game had 2 big intertwined problems to solve: 1) That the content isn't challenging enough, and 2) That the classes are too imbalanced. My conclusion was that both problems needed to be solved simultaneously, because you would create a very unfair situation for under-performing DPS classes, if you released tough content aimed at over-performing DPS classes.
To my surprise, the DEVs decided to go ahead and release tough content, without fixing up the class imbalances. Personally, I'm not bothered to play such biased content, and will continue to tear up T2 content for AD until they fix the situation, or I'll just get bored enough to simply leave the game.
I'll do another TONG class survey right now: 24 DCs, 11 Pallies, 9 GFs, 10 GWFs, 4 MoF (support), 1 SW, 1 TR, 1 DPS CW
Just terrible - a real Systems Design failure. It's not just runs like TONG. If you log on and want to go solo hunts, you get a wildly different gaming experience if you're BIS DPS CW, compared to BIS GWF. Why? What's the system design thinking behind creating one class that comes with superior DPS and tough survivability, and creating other DPS classes that have low DPS and are squishy. It also biases against you in rewards. Think about the "Encounter Completed" vs "Great Success" in heroics. Sure I personally had no issues, but there are clear class biases there. Seriously, who designs games like that? Of course, when the content was a steam-roll, everyone was pretty happy to take anyone. Once you toughen up the content though, people at the wrong end of class imbalances suffer. Call it "bad times", or in this case "Bad Times for the CW" (if DPS).
Maybe now you get that I'm not looking to improve my build, or make it into a group. I'll be happy when TRs, SWs and DPS CWs are generally accepted as equally acceptable choices when forming parties for the latest game content. I don't care about specific great players being happy, but rather that general players of the classes aren't discriminated against compared to other general players of other classes. TONG party stats clearly show that there is a problem.
I don't understand your class survey - where did you pull that data from?
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
I don't understand your class survey - where did you pull that data from?
Click 'O' to bring up 'Social', then click on "Find Person", and search on "nine gods". You'll get a list of all the players currently in TONG. Then sort on the "location" button to sort by group instance, and see not only the classes, but how specific parties are made up.
It's only a spot check, but if you do it a lot, you'll see a very, very clear pattern - Lotsa DCs, tanks, and GWFs as the DPS. You can't be definitive on just one or 2 spot checks. Do it regularly, over time. When you see a CW, inspect to see if it's a support MoF, or DPS SS.
Comments
Then the day comes when the work gets tough. The previous work was easy, and the work crew was happy to take anyone along and get the job done. Yeah, certain classes were naturally gifted on that performance chart, and the company bonuses favoured them with reward drops, but it was ok...ish.
Now, it's different. Now the work is harder, and it takes longer. Now, to get through the massive grind of all the work that has to done, work crews are taking far more notice of those performance charts. You're starting to see very clear patterns of viable work crews being formed. They're built for success, cutting down on the total grind time of the work, and certain classes of worker are clearly missing from those successful work parties.
Could the gaps really be that bad? Why would the company that hands out the work give certain classes of worker such inferior tools to other classes, and make it so much harder for them to go off on their own and do overtime without needing a full work crew? It's problematic. They know that when they take away good tools and give out bad ones, workers quit. Workers get used to their working conditions, and do not put up with having them taken away. The other thing is that you can get the best tools by buying them off the company. If you're a struggling class worker, you're a lot more likely to spend your money, trying to be a viable worker that gets to enjoy doing their work. Turns out, this is the big trick for the company. Their business is all about getting workers to buy better tools, but not making the tools so bad that the workers leave the company.
Of course, amongst those depressed worker classes, there are some shining examples. These workers stand out far above their depressed brethren, having learned to deal with tools that perform much more poorly, having learned to get every inch out of those tools, having worked hard to get the very latest and best models of the tools available to their class. Above all, they've learned how best to synergize with other classes and look a lot better on that performance chart.
Now, I'm all for doing those things that the shining class examples do. But, I am concerned if people point to the shining examples of the class, saying "See? There! Those few workers are doing just fine. Your class tools are just fine. You just need to work harder. I know it looks easy for the other classes, but if you work long enough, perhaps pay for better tools, and study enough with your tools" you can get there."
The shining examples are happy. They enjoy their work, do it well, and they're famous for it. The wider the gap between them and the average worker, the more famous they are. They are famous. Thing is, their class does have a problem - that's the reason they're famous in the first place. The company loves them too. The more workers that believe all they need is better tools to be like the shining examples, the better the company does selling better tools. The danger is, when those workers figure out that best tools was only part of the equation, and they're sitting with a large gap, having to invest far more than they realized - in what was supposed to be a fun work place.
Personally, I like working hard on my class, and I even refused to join work crews that used to have this "perma bubble" tool in the past. Problem is though, the scene I described doesn't make for healthy work place. Workers get disgruntled. They feel that their class is discriminated against. They're not a welcome part of the fun work crew place that the company said they provided. They stop coming to work.
Oh , wait a minute - that's already happening...
LOL, I know I sound like a union rep here - very much not my intention (just how the word "class" plays out), but perhaps just spend a little time thinking about the bigger picture? If the company creates equal opportunity for hard workers to be successful, you'll have a far healthier work place, with far less class discrimination, and less reason for workers to leave the company, to go "work" elsewhere.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
You really don't see that?
[Edit 1:] And by the way, just took a quick look at the 36 players currently in Nine Gods. 1 MoF, 0 SpellStorms, and a ton of DCs, tanks and GWFs.
Numbers tell a much better story than opinions.
[Edit:2] And another hour later, only 35 players in Nine Gods. 0 MoFs, 1 SpellStorm and again a ton of DCs, tanks and GWFs.
What's going on? Why few few people in a module's flagship dungeon? Where are the CWs not experiencing bad times?
Quite frankly, I believe that TR and SW need more work (pve) than we do at the moment. Now those classes really do need some love from the devs. And after they give them some attention, they should revert the Spell Storm Crit and cool down nerf as a gift to the CW community for being such classy, unselfish characters.
@lukejones77 this thread in a nutshell for you and the original poster:
I don't want to bother understanding the class better nor putting the effort to improve my toon yet I expect my toon be able to keep up/out dps BiS and properly played GWF/HR, that's not the case though therefore CW dps is in a bad spot now!
Others (myself included) have pointed it out and I'm doing it again, it is not CW underperforming, you are doing something wrong, you should make a new thread here on the CW section and post info regarding your toon (build, stats and what your loadouts are), people should quickly notice what you are doing wrong and give you advice accordingly.
Well, that's great. You are, after all, perhaps the premier example of the shining light CWs I referred to two of my posts back. The point I'm trying to make however, is that there can be superhero CWs, like you, and it doesn't mean that there isn't a problem with the class (1 post back).
You've made a bold claim, and you may be right. If so, I'm really happy for you - in fact, wish I was you... sort of. The point I'm actually making, is the state of the class generally, and how the class is faring, generally. I already stated I know how happy the super heros of the class are.
My build? I don't care that much. I never turn on those HUD indicators that show everyone's damage indicators, or (super important), clue me into what buffs have have triggered from my party members. I prefer the more immersive experience of the game, and I'm happy to take the DPS hit that comes from it. I'm also happy to take the hit that comes from playing the race I prefer, rather than the most optimal class for my DPS.
So, whilst I appreciate your idea for me to start a thread to help me with my build, no thanks! Sorry if you got the impression I was personally after help.
What does concern me, is the perception of relevance of the DPS CW in the current meta. Personally, I think that critical issues are more to do with gear and buff/debuff management than the classes themselves (that's where the superheros blaze in complete with capes), but I think that some classes get a very easy ride, while others have to work super hard and smart to get to the same place. This is where you find class superheros, but also where you find bias against certain class paragon roles.
My take is, that's not a healthy place for the game, and you end up with, well... what we currently have.
Maybe amongst your friends, and within your guild, you're not seeing a real degradation of the classic MMO Neverwinter happy gaming experience that would occasionally shine through. You know, "Hey, there's 5 of us online - tank, healer and 3 DPS. Let's go do Tong!!!". If you're not seeing a problem, I don't know what to say.
The truth is, perhaps everyone knows you well enough to take you on any run, but if you truly believe that the generic DPS CW is going to be see seen anywhere near favorably when compared with a generic HR or especially GWF, then , well, ......
And, by the way, those "generic" players, the non-elite - I understand that they're typically the ones paying the real money, trying to catch up to what they see you do, keeping one of the greatest games alive. It would be nice if their spend actually sees them get a fair result, gear for gear, in any chosen class. Just saying...
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
One thing I noticed is that this game allows us to literally pay our way to the top. With $150 you get a fresh 70 character with all campaigns completed. Than if you want some good gear go ahead and transfer Zen into AD and you can get the full on MasterCarft Manticore gear, strong hold mastercart weapons, enchantments, correct companions, companion gear, mounts, enchantments, etc...
I estimated that a player wishing to be close to BiS without playing can do so for around $2500-3000 and be in a very good spot. Does that player have the knowledge of how to play the class, NOPE...and I have seen a few of these type of players running around with Legendary mounts, R12 enchantments, mastercraft gear and weapons, etc... The funny thing is these players really stink and do not really understand the class and its mechanics. Now if you did this for a PVP only character and your main is the same class than yeah that player would be fairly skilled, though with loadouts this makes little to no sense. The point I am trying to make is that some of the players who play a CW could of simply bought their way to end game.
I am not sure how a DC would out DPS a CW? CW is the only class I know that provides a 30% boost on single target abilities with a 10% damage loss on our AoE abilities. Since we have another feat that boost our AoE abilities it is smaller damage loss. This means if you are using mainly AoE abilities on single targets you are taking a damage loss. If you swap in abilities that are single targets when going against single targets you will do more damage.
To often I see so many SS CW using all AoE abilities all the time. I see plenty using Conduct of Ice, Icy Terrain, Steal Time and Sudden Storm. If the ability is not able to change between single or AoE than it is a damage loss using so many AoE abilities on your character without modifying your loadout. This goes back to one of my other post discussing the need to adjust or modify ability in the tray or change to a new loadout. I have a single target and AoE loadout and I run as a MoF DPS.
Let me explain why I run a MoF DPS vs SS. It is my preferred paragon path. I tried to play SS many times now and simply did not like it. I rarely seen Storm Spell activate. I played through MC, VT, eToS, eGWD, etc...all the way to FBI as a SS and I just was not feeling or play style of the SS build. I than went back to a MoF and for me it just works better. This is due to me playing my character as a MoF from the start. I simply wanted to play him as a Flame wizard and I like how it works out for me.
As for your OP, you should be able to keep up just fine with 16K players. I am 3K behind you in IL and I have beaten plenty of higher IL character as well as been close to some BiS players in some of the harder content. Yeah CW has some bugs but what class doesn't in NW? CW is far from perfect but it is in a good spot.
For those who are complaining about your lack of damage, please share what content it was in, what was your abilities used and when, did you leave them for the whole run or swap them out, did you use loadouts, etc....the more info presented the better the responses will be from the experienced players who are not having issues.
I am far from a top CW but I like the class and IMO it is way better than my DC for damage. No idea how the OP thinks a DC will out DPS my CW. I seriously do not get that.
As a MoF I have options on how to play on single targets. For instance, I can use Swath or Crit Conflag. If I use Swath it helps not only me but the group. You cannot do that with a SS and sometimes, a bit less DPS by me but to give the group that bonus goes a long way at making content easier, especially now with mod 12 updates.
Hunter ranger gushing wound and hunter teamwork because those powers scaling from everything make hunter to seem a lot stronger than a wizard.
Because wizard abyss of chaos do not scale with buff-debuff ( only with power i think ).
I believe both classes deal the same damage and great weapon fighter is above them because only damage can do and has the highest weapon damage and many self buff.
I point out those details we dont even know what is our damage when we use abyss as cw and gushing wound and hunter teamwork as hr .
HR - Damage is split from At-Wills and Encounters
TR - Highest damage comes in stealth
CW - Damage comes from encounters
Each class benefits from a variety of feats, buff, debuffs companion setup, etc...you cannot compare a CW to a GWF as each class is different in how it plays, gear focus, enchantment focus, active companions, etc.... This is why balancing cannot happen like most would want. If you want true balance every class would be identical other than slight variation in animation of at wills, encounters and dailies.
The devs gave us variety instead. Each class has a unique way to produce damage.
- CW is through encounters and our damage is increased when we have chill and arcane stacks built up.
- GWF buff in damage is from targets marked.
- DC buffed damage is from empowered encounters
- TR buffed damage happens when in stealth
Now each class is also better at certain type of enemies.
- GWF is a balanced class in that it does good damage both on single and multi targets.
- CW multi targets
- TR Single Targets
- SW single targets
The reason why GWF may seem broken is that it is balanced around doing damage regardless if there is 1 or multiple enemies. CW performs better when there are more targets to hit. SW and TR are better suited for single Targets. HR is similar to a GWF in that its damage is balanced around both single and multi.
You seem so focus to on worrying about the damage of a CW without looking at what content you are running, IL variance, stats variance, etc... all of these things can impact total damage out. Also, like I stated, if you go into a boss fight and there are not adds to kill and all you are doing is AoE abilities you are seriously hurting your damage potential since CW can get a 30% buff on single target abilities we use. So make some changes to your rotation/loadout on bosses and up to the boss you will be ok and than on the boss you should not lose much ground.
CW takes timing, patience and precision above all else. It's not a class you can roll face on keyboard and win.
AoE isn't even where the money is at either. It's in single target. If a CW is struggling on single target, I'd suggest looking outside the cookie box. I for one had no issues topping on boss fights over every other class. I also didn't run the standard builds that majority run. I listed them but didn't run them. Same with enchants. I cannot stress enough to test on your own and experiment. Its the best way to learn this class to be honest.
And.....Topping charts is fun and can be a challenge. It's a competitive type of thing. We all get it. I focused on that. But the only thing that matters is did you have fun while getting that blue sapphire out of the chest at then end?
Denying that is a fallacy.
Giving your allies Arpen? in this day and age? Who doesn't cap that thing?
And there are much more examples.
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My CW started off as a Renegade and with loadouts he now is both Renegade for buffing/debuffing but also a Thaum for DPS.
My tank is the lone class where I have 3 loadouts where each one uses a different paragon feat path. One for solo play
the Conqueror, one for more defensive stance if needed Protector and one group buffing Tactician.
GWF really only have one build for PVE. SW is another class where you could use any of the three paragon path. OP is the third though most player I talk to who are OP use the Justice paragon path. Almost all TRs I talk to use the same paragon feat path.
The problem I see in this thread is that those complaining about the CW have a very narrow focus and from what I can tell they just want to be TOP DPS without any effort or thought on build, loadout and rotation. That is what I am reading.
The truth is, put on some glasses so you can get the bigger picture view as other classes and the game in general require the Devs attention more than the CW class.
CW isn't perfect ATM but it is in a better spot than others classes and usually updates result in things getting broken and later on the devs come back and make adjustments and the class ends up being worst off than it was prior to the update. So, please think about what you are asking the Devs to do.
For me, I want them to fix the bugs in content first and foremost. Than fix other areas in the game. Than fix the issues with class feats and abilities. After that, look at power sharing, how buff and debuffs stack, etc...after all of those fixes, than come back and make minor adjustments to each class as needed for class balancing.
Notice I made class balancing last and it should be as the game has many other areas that require fixing FIRST and FOREMOST.
In truth, buffs/debuffs dominate class differences, so you can stick a DPS CW at the front of any great support party. It can work, but clearly there's a very, very strong bias against you. Just do regular searches to see which classes are running the latest dungeon.
The gap between the CW class and the top two DPS classes is very, very wide. The top CW players here seem pretty happy - probably because (for a little while, but not much longer), DPS comes mostly from understanding how to maximize buffs/debuffs. For the average CW player, against, let's say, the average GWF player, it's a very sad state of affairs. You're such a second rate option for DPS, that you're looking to get carried in the latest content, by friends/guildies - a pretty unheroic state of affairs, especially if you've finally worked hard enough to maximize you class potential.
Thing is, there is such a great gap between the top two choices and the CW, that it's clearly a problem. The current content is dominated by healers, tanks and "not CWs" for a DPS role. That is a problem. The problem should have a voice. This thread is such a voice. Umm.... No. They get to complain about not being relevant enough for current content as a class in their class forums, and we get to complain about it in ours. That's how it works. If we have a perception problem with our class for the latest content, it's appropriate to post "Bad times for CW" here, irrespective of whether or not other classes should be doing it in their forums. It's inappropriate to suggest that we should be silent here, just because other classes also need DEV love.
None of that is a reason for CWs to be silent about their relevancy to current content. The problem with being prejudiced against for CURRENT content should be dealt with NOW - not at the end of a list of other things we hope DEVs will fix some day.
LMAOROTFLOL....sorry your wall of post literally had laughing my HAMSTER off rolling on the floor laughing out loud...just wanted to share that with you before I go anything further.
How many have stated CW is in a fine spot? More poster than those like yourself complaining.
How many have stated to those complaining, provide feat allocation, loadout, rotation, companions, etc...? Yet those complaining state "I know what I am doing" without providing any of the info being request.
What players are comparing GWF and HR to CW? Those complaining about not being top DPS on the paingiver charts and wanting the CW to be stronger.
I'm sorry but you really need to stop with the complaining, because I stated, if the dev deliver what you ask, they will probably nerf it later on because it will become OP. And than CW will be actually worst than what it is today. So be careful what you ask the devs to do here or in any game, because on average, devs will make something OP and than nerf the HAMSTER out of it.
I have no problem with my CW damage. Maybe it is because I am willing to adjust my character to the situation and that has paid dividends. Simply not adjusting the character and leaving things as is in all fights will always results in a small lose of damage and sometimes a pretty big one if you do not make the proper adjustments.
This is another ask here...you state latest content. Ok.
So have you ran the content and compared your damage to say a GWF. Prior to comparing were both your CW and the GWF fairly close in IL? What about stats, were they fairly close? Companions, what were they using vs. what you were using? Gear, what are you using for gear vs. their gear? What is on there ability tray and do they modify it on a boss fight or leave it as is? What is on your tray and did you modify anything on the boss fights or leave it as is? Etc......
The problem I see in this thread is the complainers simply don't share information to warrant the complaint as they just go right for the complaint without providing any information that can be reviewed, analyzed and receive a response from the community.
Threads like this do not result in any movement or changes to class unless information is provided to support the claim. The only support that comes up is..GWF and HR do more damage than my CW. Well, that is nice can you share ABC and I have not seen a response providing ABC yet in this thread. That tells me, the CW that are getting beat, simply want to complain to complain instead of providing facts and data to improve.
I am going back to my floor now to continue laughing.
There is a really, really obvious problem with the DPS CW been considered a good option for making up parties in the latest content.
The answer is not in loadouts and rotations. I'm not talking about my own damage, but rather about how the class is functioning in the Neverwinter landscape for current content. If one class needs to be so clever and specific to become viable, then there's a problem with the class design. Forget individuals, but consider the averaging of load outs for a high functioning class compared to a poorly functioning class.
If you missed that, perhaps I can understand your floor rolling. Another thing is understand is that there is a massive difference in been a good option for the old T2 dungeon runs, and the current tough runs. Been able to tear apart T2 content with DPS does not make you a good option for the current tough content.
I give you the breakdown is it is in TONG right now:
8 DCs, 6 Pallies, 5 GWF, 2 GF, 1 SW, 1 HR, 1 MoF (support CW), 0 DPS CW
The pattern for TONG is very, very clear (I check very frequently) - DCs, tanks and GWFs as the DPS.
This is a problem.
Doesn't matter if the best CWs here are quite happy with how they're doing. As I stated, buffs/debuffs dominate, and the smartest players willl (at the moment) do very well, regardless of class.
Nevertheless, beneath that layer, across the board, at a class level, the DPS CW clearly has a problem with relevancy in current content.
Maybe you're busy rolling on the floor because of what you imagined I said, instead of what I actually said?
An example of forming a group with a CW is when I first unlock FBI on my CW, instead of coming here crying about how I cannot get into groups do to my IL or class, I spent time in the game forming groups and beating FBI as both a buffer and eventually a DPS on my CW. You know how I fared as a DPS, well I was top DPS the times I ran with GWF and HR that were 1.5+ higher IL than I was. I am not quite sure how you can state the CW are in a bad spot.
The community requesting specific class group makeup is very common in MMOs. Many MMOs require tanks and healers and most MMOs you will find it easier to join groups if you play a class that plays as that role. In NW we can add buffer to that group. CW have the buffing option, so there is that if you want to get into content as a CW.
The thing with any MMO and the DPS builds, the classes that have high burst and quick damage output tend to be preferred to burn through content. HR and GWF have this, CW is a slower build up as we need to get 5 stacks in chill and arcane to really start to shine. In longer fights, where we do not have a daily already built up, CW are fine, but on quicker fights where we cannot build up our stacks we tend to lose out on damage.
Best option for you is to form your own group. No one is stopping you from doing that other than yourself.
CW is not horrible. I know plenty of players who quit their man, TR, to play other classes such as DC, GF, OP, etc...simply because that class is harder to achieve damage than HR, CW and GWF. CW is not as bad as you think and the only one stopping you from getting into the latest content is you.
As any class if you want to be better at it you must optimize. You cant claim that you want to put the feats / powers / anything else you want, click buttons randomly and be top at anything. Play the game like you like ofcourse but dont claim to be the best if you dont want to learn the mechanics and optimize the build / rotations / etc.
I agree that the DPS path could have a BIT more dmg in form of the capstone for example, but I play since the day one and I can say the class is in a very good position in group contribution. Other thing is the brainless group meta that someone post in a forum and everyone follows.
I played as DPS SpellStorm or Debuff / DPS Master of Flame in any content in the game and I can say I am very wellcome in any ToNG group. Maybe some GWF or HR do more dmg than me and what? I feel that I contribute more than them with the control (and buffs/debuffs if MoF) a CW can add. The thing that matters is the speed of the run and CWs contributes a lot making runs easier and faster.
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The TR's have been asking for help, the have been begging. The community put together entire lists of what can be done to make us viable.
And they have nerfed us in EVERY SINGLE UPDATE. Just a thought - perhaps it's best to be left alone. At least you guys are still wanted (at least on console)
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Of course, if Blighting Power gets fixed (because multiplicative stacks), then that's a nerf.
But on the plus side, at least us non CWs get to break out some popcorn and watch the rest of the NW Illuminati chase down Sharp...
Especailly the support builds go power recovery many of them.
So especially for those builds i find useful uncertain allegiance and the chaotic nexus.
With the upcoming nerfs on bondings would be nice a cleric for example while he focused to power recovery and some critical to able to critical more often his heals. OR a tank with low critical chance to make sure able to hold the threat dealing more damage because of critical hit .
OFcourse would be nice the fury to proc but for the above reasons the nexus is not bad at all.
About growth that is more pvp .
The way it ranks up is not working as intended.
What it does: 1.06 ^(number of ranks).
With 3 ranks, your damage buff looks like:
1.06^3 = ~1.191016
Sharp's got his "Eye of the Illuminati" Class feature equipped, maybe he can care to explain this better... or maybe he's already packing his bags to get ready to go on the run...
If CW take a hit...I will not blame sharp as he does his communication properly. It is individuals that cry for the CW to be fixed to be better as a DPS and typically when the devs FIX stuff it results in a nerf.....
Now go play Becky all month, leave all your other toons alone.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
I'm personally not bothering to unlock TONG (no points spent on the middle path of the campaign tree), so the whole idea of you laughing that I could have better spent my time forming a group, is... laughable.
Nothing about my opinions on latest content is based on difficulties of personal experience. Rather, it's based on what is clearly evident across the Neverwinter gaming landscape.
I posted months before TONG was released that the game had 2 big intertwined problems to solve: 1) That the content isn't challenging enough, and 2) That the classes are too imbalanced.
My conclusion was that both problems needed to be solved simultaneously, because you would create a very unfair situation for under-performing DPS classes, if you released tough content aimed at over-performing DPS classes.
To my surprise, the DEVs decided to go ahead and release tough content, without fixing up the class imbalances.
Personally, I'm not bothered to play such biased content, and will continue to tear up T2 content for AD until they fix the situation, or I'll just get bored enough to simply leave the game.
I'll do another TONG class survey right now:
24 DCs, 11 Pallies, 9 GFs, 10 GWFs, 4 MoF (support), 1 SW, 1 TR, 1 DPS CW
Just terrible - a real Systems Design failure.
It's not just runs like TONG. If you log on and want to go solo hunts, you get a wildly different gaming experience if you're BIS DPS CW, compared to BIS GWF. Why? What's the system design thinking behind creating one class that comes with superior DPS and tough survivability, and creating other DPS classes that have low DPS and are squishy. It also biases against you in rewards. Think about the "Encounter Completed" vs "Great Success" in heroics. Sure I personally had no issues, but there are clear class biases there. Seriously, who designs games like that?
Of course, when the content was a steam-roll, everyone was pretty happy to take anyone. Once you toughen up the content though, people at the wrong end of class imbalances suffer. Call it "bad times", or in this case "Bad Times for the CW" (if DPS).
Maybe now you get that I'm not looking to improve my build, or make it into a group. I'll be happy when TRs, SWs and DPS CWs are generally accepted as equally acceptable choices when forming parties for the latest game content. I don't care about specific great players being happy, but rather that general players of the classes aren't discriminated against compared to other general players of other classes. TONG party stats clearly show that there is a problem.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
It's only a spot check, but if you do it a lot, you'll see a very, very clear pattern - Lotsa DCs, tanks, and GWFs as the DPS. You can't be definitive on just one or 2 spot checks. Do it regularly, over time.
When you see a CW, inspect to see if it's a support MoF, or DPS SS.