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Bad times for CW

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  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    > @rjc9000 said:
    > Here is my warning to the CW's (I have one but I don't play her much, though she seems like fun)
    >
    > The TR's have been asking for help, the have been begging. The community put together entire lists of what can be done to make us viable.
    >
    > And they have nerfed us in EVERY SINGLE UPDATE. Just a thought - perhaps it's best to be left alone. At least you guys are still wanted (at least on console)
    >
    > What's funny is that CW is getting buffed in Mod13 due to fixing some weird bugs (Storm Spell related bugs). I suppose that's the advantage of having the local mad scientist be a CW guy, eh?
    >
    > Of course, if Blighting Power gets fixed (because multiplicative stacks), then that's a nerf.
    >
    > But on the plus side, at least us non CWs get to break out some popcorn and watch the rest of the NW Illuminati chase down Sharp...

    @rjc9000
    If you have the popcorn covered I guess you expect me to spring for the bearded female dwarves and the ale?
    Post edited by niadan on
  • eldritchxeldritchx Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    Let's be clear: every CW build in the current endgame situation is effectively a 'DPS CW'. That's basically all the class can realistically contribute to. The class' buffs and debuffs are simply a different way of increasing DPS. No one brings a CW for mitigation. The discrepancy lies between the debuffing and non-debuffing builds. The non-debuffing builds simply cannot make up the loss of party DPS with personal DPS unless the rest of the party are all poorly geared or low DPS support.

    At higher levels of play, SS CWs are not wanted simply because they can't contribute as much to party DPS as the other options out there, of which MoF CW is one.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User
    eldritchx said:


    At higher levels of play, SS CWs are not wanted simply because they can't contribute as much to party DPS as the other options out there, of which MoF CW is one.

    Absolutely, and similarly for TRs and SWs. That's what you call design imbalance flaws.
    The game offers a DPS tree to CWs, and it should be a viable option for current endgame content.
    Certainly healers and tanks buff as does the MoF, but the game design is that CWs queue as DPS, and that option should be properly supported and viable.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    eldritchx said:

    Let's be clear: every CW build in the current endgame situation is effectively a 'DPS CW'. That's basically all the class can realistically contribute to. The class' buffs and debuffs are simply a different way of increasing DPS. No one brings a CW for mitigation. The discrepancy lies between the debuffing and non-debuffing builds. The non-debuffing builds simply cannot make up the loss of party DPS with personal DPS unless the rest of the party are all poorly geared or low DPS support.

    At higher levels of play, SS CWs are not wanted simply because they can't contribute as much to party DPS as the other options out there, of which MoF CW is one.

    In terms of strict efficiency, I would rather take a SS CW than a MoF Rene. Pure support CWs quite frankly contribute very little to a party and being blunt are the worst support spec out there (templock is better.)

    HR>MoF Rene
    DPS DC who is not trying to buff at all>MoF Rene
    Templock>MoF Rene
    Support DC>MoF Rene
    Devo OP>MoF Rene
    Prot OP>MoF Rene
    GF>MoF Rene

    Simply put, there is never a situation out there where in terms of strict efficiency MoF rene deserves a place in a party. By the time people do the maths and work that out, the meta will probably have moved on.
  • eliybeatseliybeats Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    @thefabricant how do you figure that? Is this due to the diminishing returns on debuffs or are you alluding to something else?
  • eliybeatseliybeats Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    @thefabricant also mind me asking what are your opinions on the matter related to this thread? Do you think dps cws damage is as the op and others said? not wanted or not viable in end game content?
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    eliybeats said:

    @thefabricant how do you figure that? Is this due to the diminishing returns on debuffs or are you alluding to something else?

    @eliybeats Diminishing returns on debuffs. I am excluding items as part of a classes contribution since literally any class can run those items if they wanted to. A DpS can use a sellsword, a DpS can use a debuff weapon enchantment if they wanted to, a DpS can also use a support artifact. Simply put, item choices should be excluded when comparing classes since anyone on any class can choose to use them, you should only compare the class specific stuff.

    What does a MoF Rene CW bring to the table that is class specific?

    1) Combustive Action (24% debuff).
    2) Swath of Destruction (20/40% debuff if it is stacked).
    3) Uncertain allegiance (5% crit chance).
    4) A chance at chaotic fury (30% increased damage).
    5) A chance at chaotic nexus (crit chance).
    6) Bitter Cold (5% debuff)

    I am ignoring Nightmare Wizardry since it is easy to get combat advantage in a party. A GF can provide it by pressing tab or using Enforced Threat. A HR can provide it via their class feature. TR has it by default (stealth mechanism). You can gain it by positioning.

    We can ignore nexus and uncertain since a BiS DpS will have their crit chance capped without a CW. I also do not like random buffs and would ignore fury, but for the sake of making a MoF rene look a little bit better, lets count it as a static 10% buff.

    A party can reliably achieve 200% effectiveness without a MoF rene (+100% debuff), if you add in combustive+Swath and assume there is no diminishing returns, you would get 269%. This is a 34.5% party DpS increase.

    1.1*1.345= 47.95% dps increase.

    Now, let us look at a party with 3 support and 1 dps and are wondering whether to take a 4th support or another DpS. If the second DpS does the same damage as the first DpS, that increases the groups dps by 100%, which is better than a MoF rene, they don't even need to buff at all. The second DpS doesn't even need to do half the DpS of the first DpS, they only need to do more than 47.95% of it, in order for them to be better. Even if we assume an SS thaum does 2/3rds of the main DpS, they are better than a MoF rene, it is as simple as that.

    We didn't even need to account for diminishing returns on debuffs to show that.

    I could also show how a MoF rene is worse than all the other support specs, but I don't really feel the need to unless the cult of MoFs wants to come and shout their supremacy and pretend they are a competitive support spec in an endgame party.

    As far as CW as a DpS goes, true, a CW cannot beat an equally skilled GWF or GF, but I would say they are right behind those 2 classes. An HR will beat a CW only in a raid if a CW is playing properly, in a 5 man group they will not. An HR still probably contributes more though, since they can DpS+keep up partial uptime on longstrider's shot, but I would only count the non greedy HRs who actually use LSS as better than a CW in 5 man content, as the greedy ones who do not use it do less damage and do not buff at all.

    A hybrid DpS/support MoF Thaum might be worth running though, with combustive+CP for trash and swath+CP for bosses, but I haven't really got around to trying it.
  • eldritchxeldritchx Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    I never said anything about MoF Rene. And I'm pretty sure your math there counts the MoF Rene as doing 0 damage personally, measured against a SS Thaum doing 2/3 of the top DPS. Try the numbers with a MoF Thaum doing 2/3 of the top DPS while adding Swath, 100% CA and Ray of Enfeeblement.
  • eliybeatseliybeats Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    @thefabricant thanks man for the answer. Didn't know mof was that limited in terms of buffing potential now. Surprised that even templocks beat them in buffing. I've got one more question if you don't mind. Would you say that people consider hrs stronger dps in 5 man runs due to cws not utilizing certain skills when necessary to do more damage or do you believe there's an additional skill ramp in the level of play you must acquire first in order to do so, or a combination of both?
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User


    As far as CW as a DpS goes, true, a CW cannot beat an equally skilled GWF or GF, but I would say they are right behind those 2 classes.

    Remember, the two best DPS classes also have much better survivability than the other classes.
    Outside of the comparative math assumption bubble, their additional speed also causes perception problems. They're often using it to run ahead, essentially fighting a portion of the fight "alone", and skewing the PainGiver perception of being even higher DPS than they are in a proper party sense.

    My typical experience is that tanks built for DPS have very high personal toughness, and often don't hold aggro past what their DPS creates. This leads to a situation of much greater risk for the lower, squishy DPS to be downed. This kind of role malfunction only makes the lower squishier DPS look worse, and less attractive as an option.

    The whole mess is bad for the game, somewhat about perception, promoting a severe, prejudicial bias for party composition.
    You simply can't put the best DPS, best toughness and best speed into 2 of many DPS classes (one of them not even DPS by definition), and get a healthy outcome.
  • pjohnny1pjohnny1 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    @thefabricant

    From what I can tell you are unbiased and objective in what you say about class capabilities. You said a GWF and GF of equal skill and gear will out dps a CW . So say in zone/alliance chat group looking for 1 dps , 3 people respond. You get 1 GWF , 1 GF and 1 CW all equally geared/skilled . Who do you take ?

    To clarify I am not advocating for anything ( besides a defensive passive or defensive paragon somewhere for CW ) when it comes to dps. Op states that CW are really not really wanted or desired in the newest end game dungeon. Since you can see what classes are in the new dungeon on PC there is numerical data that could prove or disprove what he is says . Be much easier to do if cryptic supplied the numbers but not really necessary. You could record the numbers periodically throughout the day for a week , 2 weeks , a month whatever you want . My point is if someone really wanted to know how often each class is actually running this particular dungeon a rough estimate can be obtained without exact numbers.

    If one of the numbers people on the forums was inclined to do this, it would clear up whether or not CW is desired in groups by the population as a whole . As too whether or not CW is in a bad place this is opinion based , people are arguing both sides of this statement in this thread . I guess it comes down to whether or not you can take being a close second or third. Lol makes me think of a coach I had that would tell us that second place was the first loser .
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    eldritchx said:

    I never said anything about MoF Rene. And I'm pretty sure your math there counts the MoF Rene as doing 0 damage personally, measured against a SS Thaum doing 2/3 of the top DPS. Try the numbers with a MoF Thaum doing 2/3 of the top DPS while adding Swath, 100% CA and Ray of Enfeeblement.

    Any class adds CA, that was why I ignored it. CA is an argument with 0 merit. I also said a MoF thaum which does some damage is potentially useful, my post was simply pointing out that MoF rene wasn't. Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted you in the process, but whatever.
    pjohnny1 said:

    @thefabricant

    From what I can tell you are unbiased and objective in what you say about class capabilities. You said a GWF and GF of equal skill and gear will out dps a CW . So say in zone/alliance chat group looking for 1 dps , 3 people respond. You get 1 GWF , 1 GF and 1 CW all equally geared/skilled . Who do you take ?

    To clarify I am not advocating for anything ( besides a defensive passive or defensive paragon somewhere for CW ) when it comes to dps. Op states that CW are really not really wanted or desired in the newest end game dungeon. Since you can see what classes are in the new dungeon on PC there is numerical data that could prove or disprove what he is says . Be much easier to do if cryptic supplied the numbers but not really necessary. You could record the numbers periodically throughout the day for a week , 2 weeks , a month whatever you want . My point is if someone really wanted to know how often each class is actually running this particular dungeon a rough estimate can be obtained without exact numbers.

    If one of the numbers people on the forums was inclined to do this, it would clear up whether or not CW is desired in groups by the population as a whole . As too whether or not CW is in a bad place this is opinion based , people are arguing both sides of this statement in this thread . I guess it comes down to whether or not you can take being a close second or third. Lol makes me think of a coach I had that would tell us that second place was the first loser .

    None of the above. I have lfg turned off and would have asked a friend to come. I choose friends firstly by asking the people who I genuinely consider friends, not just friends in NW, then I go down my friends list alphabetically and ask whoever isn't currently in a dungeon. Assuming I did have lfg turned on for whatever reason, I would have picked the person who I saw first. Honestly, most of the time when someone from lfg ended up in a party with me, it was because a friend of mine had copied a message from lfg into party chat when I was trying to find someone and I just invited them.

    For me, I am either running with friends, or random queuing, or random queuing with friends. If I am inviting friends I don't distinguish by classes and if I am random queuing I am not distinguishing by classes either. So for me, the question of, "who do I choose" isn't really a valid one.
  • eliybeatseliybeats Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    > @lukejones77 said:
    > As far as CW as a DpS goes, true, a CW cannot beat an equally skilled GWF or GF, but I would say they are right behind those 2 classes.
    >
    > Remember, the two best DPS classes also have much better survivability than the other classes.
    > Outside of the comparative math assumption bubble, their additional speed also causes perception problems. They're often using it to run ahead, essentially fighting a portion of the fight "alone", and skewing the PainGiver perception of being even higher DPS than they are in a proper party sense.
    >
    > My typical experience is that tanks built for DPS have very high personal toughness, and often don't hold aggro past what their DPS creates. This leads to a situation of much greater risk for the lower, squishy DPS to be downed. This kind of role malfunction only makes the lower squishier DPS look worse, and less attractive as an option.
    >
    > The whole mess is bad for the game, somewhat about perception, promoting a severe, prejudicial bias for party composition.
    > You simply can't put the best DPS, best toughness and best speed into 2 of many DPS classes (one of them not even DPS by definition), and get a healthy outcome.

    Heck I didn't even see this post. Forums must be bugged on mobile. But this does make sense. Thanks for clarification. Seems a bit unfair when comparing to those 2 classes since they do have increased toughness.
  • eliybeatseliybeats Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    I also agree especially about the run speed. Just to keep up with gwfs I have to stack shepards, both artificer's, and the stamina mount insignia bonus thing (forgot the name of it). And even doing so they still move faster because the do the same thing as well on top of already having a sprint.
  • constantmule#4943 constantmule Member Posts: 90 Arc User
    i have stuck with the build i run for..6 months..a year?. i havent ran into any problems, i out dmg people with way higher item levels than me about half the time, and if i dont that was because i was tryiong to actually play my role...control/support/dps...
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,388 Arc User

    eliybeats said:

    @thefabricant how do you figure that? Is this due to the diminishing returns on debuffs or are you alluding to something else?

    @eliybeats Diminishing returns on debuffs. I am excluding items as part of a classes contribution since literally any class can run those items if they wanted to. A DpS can use a sellsword, a DpS can use a debuff weapon enchantment if they wanted to, a DpS can also use a support artifact. Simply put, item choices should be excluded when comparing classes since anyone on any class can choose to use them, you should only compare the class specific stuff.

    What does a MoF Rene CW bring to the table that is class specific?

    1) Combustive Action (24% debuff).
    2) Swath of Destruction (20/40% debuff if it is stacked).
    3) Uncertain allegiance (5% crit chance).
    4) A chance at chaotic fury (30% increased damage).
    5) A chance at chaotic nexus (crit chance).
    6) Bitter Cold (5% debuff)

    I am ignoring Nightmare Wizardry since it is easy to get combat advantage in a party. A GF can provide it by pressing tab or using Enforced Threat. A HR can provide it via their class feature. TR has it by default (stealth mechanism). You can gain it by positioning.

    We can ignore nexus and uncertain since a BiS DpS will have their crit chance capped without a CW. I also do not like random buffs and would ignore fury, but for the sake of making a MoF rene look a little bit better, lets count it as a static 10% buff.

    A party can reliably achieve 200% effectiveness without a MoF rene (+100% debuff), if you add in combustive+Swath and assume there is no diminishing returns, you would get 269%. This is a 34.5% party DpS increase.

    1.1*1.345= 47.95% dps increase.

    Now, let us look at a party with 3 support and 1 dps and are wondering whether to take a 4th support or another DpS. If the second DpS does the same damage as the first DpS, that increases the groups dps by 100%, which is better than a MoF rene, they don't even need to buff at all. The second DpS doesn't even need to do half the DpS of the first DpS, they only need to do more than 47.95% of it, in order for them to be better. Even if we assume an SS thaum does 2/3rds of the main DpS, they are better than a MoF rene, it is as simple as that.

    We didn't even need to account for diminishing returns on debuffs to show that.

    I could also show how a MoF rene is worse than all the other support specs, but I don't really feel the need to unless the cult of MoFs wants to come and shout their supremacy and pretend they are a competitive support spec in an endgame party.

    As far as CW as a DpS goes, true, a CW cannot beat an equally skilled GWF or GF, but I would say they are right behind those 2 classes. An HR will beat a CW only in a raid if a CW is playing properly, in a 5 man group they will not. An HR still probably contributes more though, since they can DpS+keep up partial uptime on longstrider's shot, but I would only count the non greedy HRs who actually use LSS as better than a CW in 5 man content, as the greedy ones who do not use it do less damage and do not buff at all.

    A hybrid DpS/support MoF Thaum might be worth running though, with combustive+CP for trash and swath+CP for bosses, but I haven't really got around to trying it.
    Playing the game and not make theories for worst supports based on theory numbers i can say that a master of flame renegade is far away to be the worst support. Play the game and see. Nothing else to add.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    eliybeats said:

    @thefabricant how do you figure that? Is this due to the diminishing returns on debuffs or are you alluding to something else?

    @eliybeats Diminishing returns on debuffs. I am excluding items as part of a classes contribution since literally any class can run those items if they wanted to. A DpS can use a sellsword, a DpS can use a debuff weapon enchantment if they wanted to, a DpS can also use a support artifact. Simply put, item choices should be excluded when comparing classes since anyone on any class can choose to use them, you should only compare the class specific stuff.

    What does a MoF Rene CW bring to the table that is class specific?

    1) Combustive Action (24% debuff).
    2) Swath of Destruction (20/40% debuff if it is stacked).
    3) Uncertain allegiance (5% crit chance).
    4) A chance at chaotic fury (30% increased damage).
    5) A chance at chaotic nexus (crit chance).
    6) Bitter Cold (5% debuff)

    I am ignoring Nightmare Wizardry since it is easy to get combat advantage in a party. A GF can provide it by pressing tab or using Enforced Threat. A HR can provide it via their class feature. TR has it by default (stealth mechanism). You can gain it by positioning.

    We can ignore nexus and uncertain since a BiS DpS will have their crit chance capped without a CW. I also do not like random buffs and would ignore fury, but for the sake of making a MoF rene look a little bit better, lets count it as a static 10% buff.

    A party can reliably achieve 200% effectiveness without a MoF rene (+100% debuff), if you add in combustive+Swath and assume there is no diminishing returns, you would get 269%. This is a 34.5% party DpS increase.

    1.1*1.345= 47.95% dps increase.

    Now, let us look at a party with 3 support and 1 dps and are wondering whether to take a 4th support or another DpS. If the second DpS does the same damage as the first DpS, that increases the groups dps by 100%, which is better than a MoF rene, they don't even need to buff at all. The second DpS doesn't even need to do half the DpS of the first DpS, they only need to do more than 47.95% of it, in order for them to be better. Even if we assume an SS thaum does 2/3rds of the main DpS, they are better than a MoF rene, it is as simple as that.

    We didn't even need to account for diminishing returns on debuffs to show that.

    I could also show how a MoF rene is worse than all the other support specs, but I don't really feel the need to unless the cult of MoFs wants to come and shout their supremacy and pretend they are a competitive support spec in an endgame party.

    As far as CW as a DpS goes, true, a CW cannot beat an equally skilled GWF or GF, but I would say they are right behind those 2 classes. An HR will beat a CW only in a raid if a CW is playing properly, in a 5 man group they will not. An HR still probably contributes more though, since they can DpS+keep up partial uptime on longstrider's shot, but I would only count the non greedy HRs who actually use LSS as better than a CW in 5 man content, as the greedy ones who do not use it do less damage and do not buff at all.

    A hybrid DpS/support MoF Thaum might be worth running though, with combustive+CP for trash and swath+CP for bosses, but I haven't really got around to trying it.
    Playing the game and not make theories for worst supports based on theory numbers i can say that a master of flame renegade is far away to be the worst support. Play the game and see. Nothing else to add.
    I do play the game mamalion, I play it objectively. I don't lie to myself so that I feel better about playing a strictly worse spec.
  • trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Member Posts: 372 Arc User
    @thefabricant

    What do you mean by hybrid dps/support MoF Thaum? Running CA would require higher recovery than usual Thaum builds have, wouldn't it?

    Assuming if you have full dps CW with capped arpen, crit and low recovery and also gear to go MoF Rene/Opp with high recovery, is it always better to run on dps (as 2nd dps) or it would depend on the group composition if you have both AC and DO DC and either OP or GF tank, or just 1 DC or none at all, and also possibly no class that can easily grant combat advantage? Would it be worth to go MoF Rene/Thaum with usual dps heroic feats and gear like on Thaum as well as crit sev feat instead 5% crit since the main dps and yourself should be crit capped, and then run CP+CC or CC+SoD on trash and CP+SoD on bosses? Or Thaum would still be better?

    You've mention you'd take SS CW over MoF Rene, I assume this is due to diminishing return on debuffs and also based on already having AC and DO DC in party, yes? Is there a specific reason for SS Thaum over MoF Thaum assuming the same gear and running passives CP+SS versus CP+CC? Wouldn't MoF Thaum perform better on single target? Can you say in what cases one is better than the other, I was always convinced that MoF should be better on bosses, or is SS performing better there?

    I have full DPS CW, have both SS/MoF Thaum (though I like MoF more) and MoF Rene/Thaum setups on the same gear, and I also have the full gear to go MoF Rene/Opp I enjoy playing. So far I ran T9G basically only on MoF Rene/Opp rather than on Thaum, and those runs were usually really smooth.
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    I come back after such a long time only to find the CWs in (STILL) very bad shape.

    As usual, nothing changed here.

    People who play the Cws are doing it mostly because it's fun to play like that.

    In terms of efficiency, CW's are really on some of the lowest pedestal currently.

    That being said, I can't believe that there are people who are comparing the CWs of the ore-MOD2 to the current metaMOD.

    I can't stress this one enough - SS CWs have been nerfed thanks to the exploit due to the Lostmauth' Set. Spellstorm still exists, but can't crit which is silly since it's been like that since forever.

    And when the Lostmauth' Set got nerfed AFTER A YEAR (there seems to be a pattern there, nerfing things after a YEAR of abuse and exploit, like that thing with the Bonding runestones), CWs were still left without a viable option to do some decent overall damage.

    Huge DPS should be left for the Archers and Tricksters.

    Ask any newcommer what they think of a CW class and they'll tell you it's fun, but they don't really want it. Comparing yourself and the knowledge you possess doesn't mean that CW's in a good place simply because you may know how to play the class and utilize it to it's best by using 3rd person software that records your damage.

    CWs are in a very bad position right now and that literally means that they are not viable option for a hi-end gaming content unless someone pities them and takes them to a party where they can contribute so little if not exceptionally skillful and geared up. It's like taking a VIP member of the team who wants to go to a dungeon tour.

    If damage is the problem, why not allowing a better CC against elite mobs?

    And when, if ever, will be the Icy Terrain be AoE damage? So much for the concern for the class. Disappointing.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • oria1oria1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    Weird how numbers can me made to show what we like... so lets put it this way.

    One mof can provide 100% debuff and then the dc+dc+op+gf add another 100% in that case they provide 45% damage and a MOF provide 100%... funny right? My debuffs are constant and always at 99% of the time while others... aren't. Have you looked at the uptime on act on the above mentioned classes on debuffs? Want me to post some ACT logs? For that matter look at the buffs too, Its nice to investigate not only the intensity but the duration and divide it over time. We will get a much more clear picture than the one you describe.

    On top you compare 4 classes with what one class can provide and the most runs I have been, they are more accepting other classes too like sw etc and they do 1dc runs. Facts, not theory.

    Truth is that most people already have a ton of self-buffs and party buffs from the other support class in the party, but far fewer debuffs. And also most other classes are not that great at rapidly and consistently applying debuffs.

    In most parties buff are greater than debuff, but in math If we visualize
    buff * debuff, think of it like a rectangle. And a party without a MoF is a really long but thin rectangle, but with a MoF we add a lot of area (damage) by providing a boosts to debuffs, which are usually much lower than buffs in a party. And while buff classes can provide a little more buff, nobody can compete with a MoF debuffs. (Thanks to dupeks for this way of phrasing it)

    If MoF is that bad as DPS and debuff why here and in PS4 we are doing 18-21m runs? Even with the DC having broken buffs at the start of module we were doing 22-24m and we didn't even care for speed runs. On top 23 m was without speed buff from gf. You can imagine if we had that too.

    I understand you may not like a build or a play style and that's fine we all have opinions but lets be fair. In your estimates you keep saying a lot of "IF" If they use that and if they use the other and if and if...

    I don't deal with IF i deal with actual runs.

    I have yet to see a DPS build using frost or dancing shield...
    I have yet to see a drow tank or renegade menzo DC... or dps for that matter for the darkfire...
    I have yet to see a dps using 3 dragon artifacts to have lower cooldowns or use black heart as main artifact.
    I haven't even see DC using that too, as they go for sigil and before you say it, we are talking about the average % of DC not a friend we might have here and there.
    What DPS cw uses ray on tab?
    How many can keep both stacks up all the time?
    When you don't run with a GF doesn't the Nightmare Wizardry helps and makes the run a lot easier for members as they don't need to adjust the positioning all the time? What about the bosses when they have random aggro and turn around all the time? How do you position at Turtle and Whiters? When Drufi and Ras keep jumping or are close to walls or edges?

    What about large mob fights without GF?
    EVEN with a GF that uses Enforced which caps at 8 mobs?

    That's only of the few points that came on the top of my head.

    Last but not least, have you seen a MoF support doing DPS? specially in mobs like T9 and SP and with buffs form dc and pally? Why do you ignore the fact that we do a lot of dps and we add that to the table too? Unless you don't agree that a MoF can do dps AND debuff.... in which case maybe you and me need to do a run together, you will be surprised.

    What I am trying to say is that there is room for everyone for every dungeon. If you cant find a GF or a 2nd DC a CW or SW or HR will do equally well. You dont like it.. dont run with those and that's fine.

    Now if we bring in the foreground the changes that will come in 3 weeks with mod 12b and the loss in stats from bondings mainly on critical chance, a cw can offer even more help as we can provide a good 35% extra critical and we will max out your crit chance or even armor pen as people will lose that too and not all can upgrade to rank 13 straight away and it will take few months until most can be at r14.

    My 1 cent (not even 2)





  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    @c1k4ml3kc3

    I have yet to be offered to run high end content....out of pity...lol
    Post edited by niadan on
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    @thefabricant

    How is templock better than MoF rene at buffing dps?

    I get that pillar has both a buff and a debuff component but, besides that and dark rewelry, I don't see templock bringing much to the table.

    My question also considers either factor:

    - OBC proccing only half of what it does on live
    - Pillar will crit as a dev got to look at it, this esentially renders the OBC useless and PoP damage is hardcore low.

    How would a templock specced for dps compare to viable MoF rene builds in terms of personal damage and factoring party utility does this make templock better overall?
  • oria1oria1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 263 Arc User
    niadan said:

    I have yet to be offered to run high end content....out of pity...lol

    Wanna run some dungeons when I'll log? There you go... solved

    (I mean it and its not out of pity, I really like grouping up with people from forums and have fun and testing things)




  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2017

    @thefabricant

    What do you mean by hybrid dps/support MoF Thaum? Running CA would require higher recovery than usual Thaum builds have, wouldn't it?

    Assuming if you have full dps CW with capped arpen, crit and low recovery and also gear to go MoF Rene/Opp with high recovery, is it always better to run on dps (as 2nd dps) or it would depend on the group composition if you have both AC and DO DC and either OP or GF tank, or just 1 DC or none at all, and also possibly no class that can easily grant combat advantage? Would it be worth to go MoF Rene/Thaum with usual dps heroic feats and gear like on Thaum as well as crit sev feat instead 5% crit since the main dps and yourself should be crit capped, and then run CP+CC or CC+SoD on trash and CP+SoD on bosses? Or Thaum would still be better?

    You've mention you'd take SS CW over MoF Rene, I assume this is due to diminishing return on debuffs and also based on already having AC and DO DC in party, yes? Is there a specific reason for SS Thaum over MoF Thaum assuming the same gear and running passives CP+SS versus CP+CC? Wouldn't MoF Thaum perform better on single target? Can you say in what cases one is better than the other, I was always convinced that MoF should be better on bosses, or is SS performing better there?

    I have full DPS CW, have both SS/MoF Thaum (though I like MoF more) and MoF Rene/Thaum setups on the same gear, and I also have the full gear to go MoF Rene/Opp I enjoy playing. So far I ran T9G basically only on MoF Rene/Opp rather than on Thaum, and those runs were usually really smooth.

    @trzebiat#2067 on trash you don't really need to have high recovery, provided you have a snail and an AP gain cloak. Combustive Action itself generates AP when targets die, which means it is quite easy to keep it up on trash fights, the issue only occurs on bosses (which is when I would switch to swath). I find for personal dps SS always performs better. Smoulder objectively does less damage than Storm Spell and if you are in a party with an OP, a large portion of your damage cannot crit (which makes the boost from crit conflag less meaningful. Swath/CA effectiveness depends on how many debuffs already exist. However, I would say both paths are definitely viable.

    @thefabricant

    How is templock better than MoF rene at buffing dps?

    I get that pillar has both a buff and a debuff component but, besides that and dark rewelry, I don't see templock bringing much to the table.

    My question also considers either factor:

    - OBC proccing only half of what it does on live
    - Pillar will crit as a dev got to look at it, this esentially renders the OBC useless and PoP damage is hardcore low.

    How would a templock specced for dps compare to viable MoF rene builds in terms of personal damage and factoring party utility does this make templock better overall?

    @jaime4312#3760 to be honest templock also isn't great and I would rather take an HB Fury (which has the same buff potential basically but doesn't have the ability to heal). However, SW has, if they chose to use them, the following:

    1) Dreadtheft 25% debuff.
    2) Infernal Wrath 5% debuff.
    3) Pillar of Power 10% debuff.

    and then Pillar of Power 18% buff.

    In a group which is already hitting heavy diminishing returns on debuffs, the extra consistent buff potential from pillar of power will outweigh the lower debuffs and in addition a fury lock can deal ok dps, where as a pure support MoF by default has to give up their damage since they aren't using chilling presence.

    And @oria1 don't even BS and pretend you can perma keep up 2 stacks of RoE, I specifically looked at your gameplay to see if you could and either you can't or you don't. There are AC DCs that use dancing shields, dps that use sellswords and if a dps really wanted to, they could use a support weapon enchant as well. They don't because its not worth sacrificing their weapon enchantment for a support enchantment and I wouldn't sacrifice an entire party slot just for someone to use it either. And as far as MoF rene's doing dps? You may as well do none, it is literally comparable to an AC DC and I have seen AC DCs doing more...with 0 arp. I don't count 1/20th of the main dps as contributing to the dps. DO DCs use support artifacts and AC DCs as well and if you don't think so you are not looking hard enough.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    @thefabricant

    Gotcha, thanks for the explanation. SW isn't precisely a class looked after though, people have preference for other damage dealers that have better personal dps, like dps CW/HR/GWF.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    @thefabricant

    Gotcha, thanks for the explanation. SW isn't precisely a class looked after though, people have preference for other damage dealers that have better personal dps, like dps CW/HR/GWF.

    It isn't, no. My argument was not that it is looked for, rather that it would contribute more than a pure support CW.
  • eliybeatseliybeats Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    At this point the buffs /debuffs from both are so miniscule it wouldn't seem like a huge difference anyway compared to using two dcs. Or even a longstrider hr. That's depressing.
  • oria1oria1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    First I will recommend not to use language with me. If you have arguments use them if not don't, that simple.

    You are right I cant keep 2xRoE up :) (Sarcasm)
    Sorry that the video isn't more clear since I recorded from the laptop I'm playing now and Icons on dummies aent big, but I will make a more clear version on a boss when I get on my main PC. Regardless you can see the small number on the corner is always there and on. For the story if Roe is with one stack it doesn't have any number if there are 2 stacks it does. I can do this for a VERY long time and if by some chance I miss it I can regain in in few seconds.
    Forgot to mention that RoE is the 2nd icon from the end (orange one)

    Edit:
    "1) Combustive Action (24% debuff).
    2) Swath of Destruction (20/40% debuff if it is stacked).
    3) Uncertain allegiance (5% crit chance).
    4) A chance at chaotic fury (30% increased damage).
    5) A chance at chaotic nexus (crit chance).
    6) Bitter Cold (5% debuff)"

    Btw why on the above list you don't mention Roe specially on mastery? Isn't a 35% debuff good enough? Cause that will make your list jump to more than 100% and I still cant see how a 100% debuff is bad for a group along with other things we can use that others won't. Unless you talk about the exception of 2 cw running which really isn't since I doubt a DPS cw will use RoE on tab.

    Now to the other points: Anytime you like to bring an AC dc or your AC dc to run a duo run and beat me in dps I will gladly accept it. We will record both video and ACT logs. Specially in t9 and SP. Keep in mind while you dps you need to keep your buffs up all the time as I will keep my debuffs up all the time cause this is the point we are talking. A MoF can do DPS while debuffing and you are claiming an AC can do dps while buffing. . So enough theory and time for action.

    Yes there are FEW DC that use dancing shield the majority doesn't. So far how many have you seen? I know only 3 but im sure there are 3 more on the server. Btw do you use a shield?

    "if a dps really wanted to, they could use a support weapon enchant as well"
    Which is my point, they could but they don't. While with a mof using a debuff enchant they can keep the dps enchants and have both benefits :) Faster kill for the group.




    Thank you also for answering to the rest of my points by not mentioning anything and if you look for confrontation you can find it elsewhere...

    Here is my other cent...
    Post edited by oria1 on




  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited October 2017
    oria1 said:

    First I will recommend not to use language with me. If you have arguments use them if not don't, that simple.

    You are right I cant keep 2xRoE up :) (Sarcasm)
    Sorry that the video isn't more clear since I recorded from the laptop I'm playing now but I will make a more clear version when I get on my main PC. Regardless you can see the small number on the corner is always there and on. For the story if Roe is with one stack it doesn't have any number if there are 2 stacks it does. I can do this for a VERY long time and if by some chance I miss it I can regain in in few seconds.

    Now to the other points: Anytime you like to bring an AC dc or your AC dc to run a duo run and beat me in dps I will gladly accept it. We will record both video and ACT logs. Specially in t9 and SP. Keep in mind while you dps you need to keep your buffs up all the time as I will keep my debuffs up all the time cause this is the point we are talking. A MoF can do DPS while debuffing and you are claiming an AC can do dps while buffing. . So enough theory and time for action.

    Yes there are FEW DC that use dancing shield the majority doesn't. So far how many have you seen? I know only 3 but im sure there are 3 more on the server. Btw do you use a shield?

    "if a dps really wanted to, they could use a support weapon enchant as well"
    Which is my point, they could but they don't. While with a mof using a debuff enchant they can keep the dps enchants and have both benefits :) Faster kill for the group.

    Thank you also for answering to the rest of my points by not mentioning anything and if you look for confrontation you can find it elsewhere...

    Here is my other cent...



    I don't care if you can keep it up on a dummy or not, I just looked at whether or not you are keeping it up in actual gameplay. It isn't up permanently in this video and has quite noticeable downtime. The real question is, is it worth stacking enough recovery to keep ray up twice? No, since you gain nothing except double stacked ray and lose a lot of dps.

    If I was AC, I would use a shield. Last I checked, my DC is DO and uses a sellsword. I do have a shield and the gear for a shield and if the group wanted a shield I could switch one in but since it makes more sense for an AC to use a shield, I currently use a sellsword.

    And its simple maths, if it isn't worth it for a dps to switch a weapon enchantment to a support weapon enchantment, then it isn't worth it to lose an entire party slot for it. What I don't think you understand is not only are debuffs worse than buffs but in a lot of situations, debuffs are worth less than dps. In a group with 3 support who do 0 damage and 1 dps, adding another dps who does the same damage as the main dps will be a 100% dps increase. A MoF is worse than that. In a group with 2 dps, adding a 3rd DpS who does the same damage as the other 2, will be a 50% dps increase, a MoF is often worse than that as well. So, in a group with 3 dps, should you take a MoF or a 4th dps? Well, in this case, probably a MoF. The catch is though, you could take any number of supports which do the same job as a MoF but do it better.

    At 200% effectiveness, I would rather have a 40% buff then a 140% debuff. Can other classes keep debuffs reliably up on trash? No. Tell me though, when was the last time we cared about trash? I think it was mod 5. Can other classes keep debuffs up reliably on bosses? Yes, they can.

    At the end of the day, in most cases a dps CW is worth more than a support CW. The sad thing is, the support CW will get invited and the dps CW will not, due to population ignorance.
  • trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Member Posts: 372 Arc User

    @thefabricant

    What do you mean by hybrid dps/support MoF Thaum? Running CA would require higher recovery than usual Thaum builds have, wouldn't it?

    Assuming if you have full dps CW with capped arpen, crit and low recovery and also gear to go MoF Rene/Opp with high recovery, is it always better to run on dps (as 2nd dps) or it would depend on the group composition if you have both AC and DO DC and either OP or GF tank, or just 1 DC or none at all, and also possibly no class that can easily grant combat advantage? Would it be worth to go MoF Rene/Thaum with usual dps heroic feats and gear like on Thaum as well as crit sev feat instead 5% crit since the main dps and yourself should be crit capped, and then run CP+CC or CC+SoD on trash and CP+SoD on bosses? Or Thaum would still be better?

    You've mention you'd take SS CW over MoF Rene, I assume this is due to diminishing return on debuffs and also based on already having AC and DO DC in party, yes? Is there a specific reason for SS Thaum over MoF Thaum assuming the same gear and running passives CP+SS versus CP+CC? Wouldn't MoF Thaum perform better on single target? Can you say in what cases one is better than the other, I was always convinced that MoF should be better on bosses, or is SS performing better there?

    I have full DPS CW, have both SS/MoF Thaum (though I like MoF more) and MoF Rene/Thaum setups on the same gear, and I also have the full gear to go MoF Rene/Opp I enjoy playing. So far I ran T9G basically only on MoF Rene/Opp rather than on Thaum, and those runs were usually really smooth.

    @trzebiat#2067 on trash you don't really need to have high recovery, provided you have a snail and an AP gain cloak. Combustive Action itself generates AP when targets die, which means it is quite easy to keep it up on trash fights, the issue only occurs on bosses (which is when I would switch to swath). I find for personal dps SS always performs better. Smoulder objectively does less damage than Storm Spell and if you are in a party with an OP, a large portion of your damage cannot crit (which makes the boost from crit conflag less meaningful. Swath/CA effectiveness depends on how many debuffs already exist. However, I would say both paths are definitely viable.

    @thefabricant So theoretically can run MoF Thaum with the same dps gear and stats priority (capped arpen, crit, rest in power, ignore recovery) and just switch INT belt with Company Cloak to Rubellite set for AP gain on trash to use CA?

    About SS vs MoF Thaum, I can see SS outperforming MoF on trash with more burst damage and SuS not having target caps compared to FtF single target off tab or ST with long casting time and 6 target cap. But on single target wouldn't MoF with extra crit sev from CC be better than SS when using Feytouched and CoI on tab for maintaining chill and single target spells like CS, Dis and RoE, or even FtF instead RoE for extra 5% damage buff from feats? Not sure if and when it's worth it to give up RoE though.

    I guess there's also possibility to take Destructive Wizardry sacrificing some points from Elemental Empowerment and/or Tempest Magic and/or Malevolent Surge (in boss fights without adds this one is useless anyway) and use fully charged Storm Pillar in rotation. Is that how would you go with SS Thaum?

    For pure DPS on single target without considering running SoD, with the same gear and feats and no issues running one or the other paragon path would you recommend going for SS or MoF, or working into rotation Destructive Wizardry on SS? I assume the usual rotation of CoI on tab, CS, Dis, RoE.

    One more question if you don't mind. Do you think running DPS MoF Rene/Thaum with CP+CC or CP+CA on trash for Nightmare Wizardry, if there is no class that can grant CA, is worth it? IIRC there was even one FBI speed run featuring MoF Rene running as DPS, Roth 2.0 I think, with damage close behind DPS GF. Is this a viable path as a hybrid DPS/support?
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