vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
my two cents -
Cryptic obviously want push this new system through our throats no matter what and of course they are not stupid and they will make sure it will work. Maybe not at the start of mod12b but adjust things later. So we can expect big nerfs of hardest content to be able to pugging, which are not doable now.
some players can amass rad through alts, but obviously these alts are tanks and healers. And they are only reason dps characters are in the dungeon and not waiting in que forever.
so in the final we get toxic que environmet, players leaving instances during first min and make a new try on other character. and definitely ques will not popping quickly but exactly opposite because lack of support classes in the ques overall, especially in new famous random que
Cryptic obviously want push this new system through our throats no matter what and of course they are not stupid and they will make sure it will work. Maybe not at the start of mod12b but adjust things later. So we can expect big nerfs of hardest content to be able to pugging, which are not doable now.
some players can amass rad through alts, but obviously these alts are tanks and healers. And they are only reason dps characters are in the dungeon and not waiting in que forever.
so in the final we get toxic que environmet, players leaving instances during first min and make a new try on other character. and definitely ques will not popping quickly but exactly opposite because lack of support classes in the ques overall, especially in new famous random que
Agreed, I'll happily take my thirty minute punishment in the virtual sin bin and go watch Netflix if I land FBI or MSPC on my only eligible character.
While ever the number of DPS outweighs the ratio required of support, queue parity simply can't exist. Unless there are substantially more clerics and tanks to dps above 11k. In which case the only reason queues pop faster will be that fewer lower IL dps are allowed to do the queue and skew the ratio.
All it means is that the unpopular queues pop faster at the expense of the popular. This is a stated goal of the system... Let me try and be as clear as I can. The simple, very basic, reason something is unpopular boils down to one thing. People Don't Want To Do It.
And you know what the MOST unpopular dungeons are? The ones that see people begging in chat for groups.
This system corals players toward those dungeons. It's not "random" at all. The only way this systems ever applîes a random element is for full groups of five or if no one at all across the entire platform is queuing for anything. Because if there is even ONE person already queuing for a particular dungeon, you go there to fill that persons queue.
That's not "random" that's "we send you where we want you to go." which is inevitably to the queues you would be unlikely to choose yourself.
This is ALL about making unpopular content appear more popular than it really is.
so in the final we get toxic que environmet, players leaving instances during first min and make a new try on other character. and definitely ques will not popping quickly but exactly opposite because lack of support classes in the ques overall, especially in new famous random que
Agreed. Let me give you an example.
My main is a typical support character - a 16.2K IL DO DC. My playing time is limited - work and family takes priority, so when I run something it has to be fun AND worth my time.
The main problem is the following:
The Mod 12B Random Queue changes are an attempt to get rid of the symptoms of the problem but they do nothing to fix the underlying cause. The result is that they do nothing to encourage a support character like me to use Random Queues, and thus do not help with the queue wait times.
Now, I run two kinds of dungeons. On one hand I may run just about anything with my guild/alliance members - typically eToS, eLoL or CN, but occasionally eGWD, IG, KR or, well...just about anything except the leveling dungeons. After mod 12B hits, I expect there will be less demand for this type of run, simply because many of the lower-geared players do not have everything unlocked yet, so they cannot run the random epic dungeon queues. They have a choice of running boring leveling dungeons and get bonus AD or run more interesting content but not get the bonus AD.
Not very motivating, is it? That will probably mean fewer dungeon runs and more player frustration.
On the other hand I may run something for my own benefit. The requirement that it is "fun" removes the leveling dungeons. The requirement that it be worth my time removes most of the rest - face it, the reward/effort ratio for some of the content like mSP is beyond pathetic.
So, there is no reason why I would want to use a random queue when I want to do something for my own benefit. I could end up in something that is not fun, not rewarding or takes too long for the time I have.
However, T9G is left. It is fun, and the rewards are good enough for it to be worth my time - pretty decent salvage, and the seals are useful for the IL 500 items - a few of which are actually BiS for one of my loadouts or another.
The thing is though...T9G is tough. I would never consider running it with a random PUG. This is even more true now with two of the primary DC debuff powers broken, and will remain true after Mod 12B is released because of the bonding runestone nerf which will make the hardest content even harder.
No, I will only run T9G with a group that I trust to complete it. (Highly geared/skilled people from my guild/alliance or for example people from Zerg_Legion). Currently we could use random queues with a premade group for that, but that is only because it is the only dungeon in its difficulty category ... and no, this will not help with queue wait times for T9G - but nobody PUGs for that anyhow.
Hoping for improvements...
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,237Arc User
The Mod 12B Random Queue changes are an attempt to get rid of the symptoms of the problem but they do nothing to fix the underlying cause. The result is that they do nothing to encourage a support character like me to use Random Queues, and thus do not help with the queue wait times.
Well, it is not nothing. You can get role bonus.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
> @mordekai#1901 said: > my two cents - > > Cryptic obviously want push this new system through our throats no matter what and of course they are not stupid and they will make sure it will work. Maybe not at the start of mod12b but adjust things later. So we can expect big nerfs of hardest content to be able to pugging, which are not doable now. > > This system corals players toward those dungeons. It's not "random" at all. The only way this systems ever applîes a random element is for full groups of five or if no one at all across the entire platform is queuing for anything. Because if there is even ONE person already queuing for a particular dungeon, you go there to fill that persons queue. > > That's not "random" that's "we send you where we want you to go." which is inevitably to the queues you would be unlikely to choose yourself. > > This is ALL about making unpopular content appear more popular than it really is.
LOL, this is too true. After all their BS reasons for adding this, it won't really be random at all. They will effectively be forcing unpopular content down our throats.
@beckylunatic - the intended meaning of the previous statement was clarified in the last response.
When RQ'ing alone players will not know who they will be grouped with and a character being of higher level (70) the player in control will probably more than likely prefer to complete the content as fast as possible meaning if they are grouped with lower level characters that type of progress could be impeded.
In the past large amounts of AD was generated from little effort. Players were running content they "didn't like" for RAD, with the RQ system it will pretty much be the same thing, essentially without being able to manually select the easiest out of all the available content.
A number of players probably won't RQ epic dungeons/trials, currently most players don't public queue for higher content anyway, for the most part they private queue outside of the Tank, Healer, 3 DPS structure which wouldn't qualify for RQ in the first place.
With the RQ system players that can tackle higher content with a "standard group" will be rewarded by being able achieve more bonus AD instead of pretty much all players being capable of achieving the same amounts of bonus RAD as it is pre-Mod12b (2 dungeons, 2 skirmishes, 2 PvP matches for the maximum bonus RAD for completion). With Mob 12b players will have to unlock campaigns, progress them and be of the appropriate ilvl and those that do and can complete the higher content will net more bonus RAD for their efforts which makes sense since they aren't simply selecting the easiest content for their bonus RAD which many players do.
Players that don't RQ or don't RQ epic/trial content will have more time to do other things in-game or IRL. It will about half the time to run 1 RQ dungeon and skirmish than it did to run 2 of each before with respective changes to RAD yields.
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Players that don't RQ or don't RQ epic/trial content will have more time to do other things in-game or IRL. It will about half the time to run 1 RQ dungeon and skirmish than it did to run 2 of each before with respective changes to RAD yields.
And this is where you could be wrong. How long does it take you with a normal group to finish 2 dungeons and 2 skirmishes of your choice? And how long will it be if you get 1 really long dungeon, lets say it will take at least 25mins, and a 15min+ skirmish?
In my case the old option could take something between 25-40minutes. And it is content which I "like" or am very used to at least. With the new option it would take me at least 40minutes, maybe giving me content which I don't like.
So there is really no improvement for me and I won't do any content I don't like. I also learned NOT to random queue if I wasn't prepared to carry a whole group of ... uhm ... people having no luck with their thinking... if you get my drift...
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,237Arc User
Players that don't RQ or don't RQ epic/trial content will have more time to do other things in-game or IRL. It will about half the time to run 1 RQ dungeon and skirmish than it did to run 2 of each before with respective changes to RAD yields.
And this is where you could be wrong. How long does it take you with a normal group to finish 2 dungeons and 2 skirmishes of your choice? And how long will it be if you get 1 really long dungeon, lets say it will take at least 25mins, and a 15min+ skirmish?
In my case the old option could take something between 25-40minutes. And it is content which I "like" or am very used to at least. With the new option it would take me at least 40minutes, maybe giving me content which I don't like.
So there is really no improvement for me and I won't do any content I don't like. I also learned NOT to random queue if I wasn't prepared to carry a whole group of ... uhm ... people having no luck with their thinking... if you get my drift...
Well, the main issue here is 'like' or 'does not like'.
If we set that aside, the new method gives you a choice to earn AD through level dungeon. The dungeon you probably don't like. I tried that in weekend for all 3-man level dungeons to have an estimation of the time. Even my weakest level 70 toon can finish one in 14 minutes in solo (and I also pick up stuff from the ground and certain inventory management in the process). So, if there is a channel to recruit level 70 players for these 3 men level dungeon run for the sole purpose of AD (and not about fun), the party can door to door all the way with less than 14 minutes.
A more fair comparison is: your old option 25 to 40 minutes with 'fun' dungeons vs new option of 14 minutes of "no fun" dungeon.
I am not saying the new option is better or worse because I cannot measure fun but that is a better illustration of the difference. In my example, there is no issue about 'carrying' because that can be solo. As long as the party (of your choice) is capable to run to the end, that can be finished fast.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I totally forgot to mention the ADs I would get from salvage there.
1 Skirmish (1-2 items) and 1 Dungeon (no salvage from <lvl 70 dungions?) vs ~5-6 items on average from those 2/2 Dungeons/Skirmishes formerly run. And don't even start with that ridiculus amount of bonus seals, that isn't even 1/3 of an item...
- Around 20 minutes pre-Mod 12b - With Mod 12b around 30 minutes (that's with getting x2 15 minute or so RQ's which there is about 1 in the normal dungeon section and 1 in the skirmish section), though the longer content isn't always chosen by the RQ system, sometimes 2 "five minute" queues are chosen.
Pre-Mod 12b a number of players "like" to select the "5 minute" content
In your case the 25-50 minutes could very well drop to around 10-15 minutes at least some of the time, your average time spent will more the likely drop.
@plasticbat "fun" is often a "shield" term a number of players use LoL. Shield term meaning even though the term "fun" is used sometimes it doesn't actually describe something in the same sense.
A 5 minute run ("fun") vs a 8 minute run ("not fun").
You can still run the content you want for salvage value.
Post edited by trinity706#8838 on
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Look at this from a different viewpoint. I run 2 skirmishes, 2 dungeons daily via public queue (dread,kessel,etos,gwd) and I give up the possible RAD from PVE. Why do I give up that extra RAd, simple: I can't stand PvP for numerous reasons. Now the game is ok with this, I am not forced to run pvp n I dont get the benefits.
Now, what if the game changed and said only way to earn RAD is via PvP? How many people would leave, and also how many that enjoy PvP would be upset about getting people that are only running it fof RAD not the competition.
That is in essence what the game is doing now, run something you don't like or no RAD. It will upset both sides, those forced into it, and those lower ilvl toons that won't get full experience since a high ilvl will blow thru stuff.
Also, making a premade group and using RQ is a joke. Pre-made group will just abandon instance on elite RQ until they get the one they want.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,237Arc User
Look at this from a different viewpoint. I run 2 skirmishes, 2 dungeons daily via public queue (dread,kessel,etos,gwd) and I give up the possible RAD from PVE. Why do I give up that extra RAd, simple: I can't stand PvP for numerous reasons. Now the game is ok with this, I am not forced to run pvp n I dont get the benefits.
Now, what if the game changed and said only way to earn RAD is via PvP? How many people would leave, and also how many that enjoy PvP would be upset about getting people that are only running it fof RAD not the competition.
There are enough stuff to argue and fight for already. We don't need more what if. There are many "what if" that you like and other does not like and vice versa.
That is in essence what the game is doing now, run something you don't like or no RAD. It will upset both sides, those forced into it, and those lower ilvl toons that won't get full experience since a high ilvl will blow thru stuff.
I know the following is not Cryptic's intention but I predict that will happen: level 70 will private group with level 70's to run random level dungeon. Level 70 does not want low level to slow them down. They don't want to take the chance to have leaver penalty of their fast run. There will be a lot of level 70 want to do fast run (no shortage of party members). They will not spoil low level people most of the time because the low level will be 'excluded'. Again, that is not dev's intention but that probably will be the result.
I never run leveling dungeons for AD bonus, those places shoudnt be allowed for 11k+ toons, it just to easy even soling as CW, they should be only for solo players... the other resaon i dont run this is that i hate when i enter a place like this wille leveling and there's a lv 70 killing everthing and running to the end... it ruins the fun...
I usually run places like MC VT ELOL (the faster ones) or ECC, EGWD, CN
I'm to weak for FBI, MSP and T9G and i know that, if i for any reason enter a Random queue ( i will not ) and happen to be placed thetre i will call a "Kick me pls i'm useless here!!!" before the start... i will not be carried by other players...
> @plasticbat said: > Look at this from a different viewpoint. I run 2 skirmishes, 2 dungeons daily via public queue (dread,kessel,etos,gwd) and I give up the possible RAD from PVE. Why do I give up that extra RAd, simple: I can't stand PvP for numerous reasons. Now the game is ok with this, I am not forced to run pvp n I dont get the benefits. > > > > Now, what if the game changed and said only way to earn RAD is via PvP? How many people would leave, and also how many that enjoy PvP would be upset about getting people that are only running it fof RAD not the competition. > > > > > There are enough stuff to argue and fight for already. We don't need more what if. There are many "what if" that you like and other does not like and vice versa. > That is in essence what the game is doing now, run something you don't like or no RAD. It will upset both sides, those forced into it, and those lower ilvl toons that won't get full experience since a high ilvl will blow thru stuff. > > > > > I know the following is not Cryptic's intention but I predict that will happen: > level 70 will private group with level 70's to run random level dungeon. Level 70 does not want low level to slow them down. > They don't want to take the chance to have leaver penalty of their fast run. There will be a lot of level 70 want to do fast run (no shortage of party members). They will not spoil low level people most of the time because the low level will be 'excluded'. Again, that is not dev's intention but that probably will be the result. > Also, making a premade group and using RQ is a joke. Pre-made group will just abandon instance on elite RQ until they get the one they want. > > They can but they will have leaver penalty and cannot queue again for 30 minutes. They can all change toon though.
For your last part, 5 man premade group gets FBI via RQ, and doesn't want to run it. How I understand it, the group can vote to abandon instance and no leaver penalty. Only if they just left one at a time and didn't vote group would penalty be put in place.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,237Arc User
For your last part, 5 man premade group gets FBI via RQ, and doesn't want to run it. How I understand it, the group can vote to abandon instance and no leaver penalty. Only if they just left one at a time and didn't vote group would penalty be put in place.
My understanding is you can't vote abandon instance in the beginning. You can vote after you did "multiple" tries against a boss and fail. How many is "multiple" was not stated. Must the boss be the end boss? I did not see that stated neither.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
@trinity706#8838 while I don't share the grief of some over the potential loss of some bonus RAD, I do oppose this new system as it stands because it is not an improvement over what we have now, and will almost surely not accomplish its goals due to bad design.
Players that now run 2 dungeons and 2 skirmishes on their alts or bot accounts are already running Cloak Tower and Master of the Hunt, the very easiest possible choices, and will RQ for one of a range of leveling dungeons which will be no less difficult unless they just get lost. They will make slightly less RAD in less time and probably be fine with that.
New level 70s will have forgotten completely about RQs once they finally qualify for the Epic Dungeon RQ, and nobody that would qualify for it when it rolls out would find a random FBI or MSP PUG fun.
We have enough broken stuff in the game already without introducing more features no one will use.
Now, if you will excuse me, I need to go take all my Black Ice Paraphernalia to the Stronghold Siege Map and bury it with my epic shovel.
Honestly this whole scheme sounds like it is intended to reduce the amount of AD in game by drastically reducing the RTI (return on time invested).
Sounds about right. A few weeks ago, people were complaining about having to make too many trips to the seal vendor. Pretty clear sign there is too much RAD being earned now. I've been running just 2 x eToS/eGWD (still trying to get shirts) daily and I have more than enough salvage to hit the 36K daily limit.
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arcticblitzMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 126Arc User
I know it has been said before but I'd like to add it again, As part of these changes please make all the campaign dungeons account wide unlocks.
Blitzy : PVE only Barbarian
Martin ConDion PVE only Ranger Guild Founder: -HunterS-
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kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
edited September 2017
As somebody who has 4 support alts that can run pretty much anything (ie 11-13k, templock, dc, gf, op tank), I plan on not running them through any epic dungeon on a random queue, since I can't control the ROI vs time or plan on unlocking everything for each. Each has the unlocks my guild had a need for not what the dev's wish. The dev's can do what they want and I will do what I please, no matter the loss in income. This is clearly a cash grab, since they are reselling the stats we had before the nerfs. So I will deal with that as I did mod 6, no cash expenditures (last time it was 12 months). My dps toons will slide back until I re-gear and re-upgrade my stones, but no cash will be used regardless. I'm wondering if this will be as successful as mod 6 was....
@darkheart, @plasticbat - each leave is a 30 minute leaver penalty, even if they vote to abandon they can't do it instantly, a considerable amount of time has to be spent in the content and considerable effort to complete applied, their choice.
As far as excluding higher level characters from lower level content, what if something similar was to be done for campaigns? In other words newer campaigns having a minimum ilvl requirement essentially excluding lower ilvl players from accessing them?
There are fresh level 70 characters in Chult getting destroyed. It's funny that "some" players see higher level characters as a "problem" when they are in lower level content but when lower level players are in content that they are clearly not fit for the presence of higher level players is not seen as a problem then.
The under fit players are arguably "ruining" the experience for higher level players because they are taking up space in instances appropriately leveled characters could utilize for content such as heroic encounters, etc.
If the ideas for exclusion only go in one direction it is biased.
@preechr - Are you sure they will forget? Most players will not forget about obtaining RAD, especially when they are accustomed to getting them easy anyway...
If new level 70 (players) that in time qualify for epic dungeon RQ "forget" about the normal dungeon and skirmish RQ's that is upon them, they will still be there for those that realize the possibility of getting a slightly longer normal dungeon/skirmish means very little and those that can handle RQ'ing higher content.
There are a number of improvements, essentially:
- more time for players that in the past ran 2+2 (normal dungeons, skirmishes). - less RAD in circulation. - unpopular queues popping faster since RQ's will involve "all" content of a section. - players that run higher content being rewarded for their efforts. - AFK farmers/bots will be effected. - less server issues (lag) if the number of players that claim they will stop playing in fact do. - etc.
@namelesshero347 - Spot on. There is a LOT of RAD being generated from very little effort which effects the game as a whole.
@arcticblitz so players with RAD mules/little to no intention to get campaign boons that will make their characters more viable can jump in queues with others forcing them to pick up their slack? No thanks.
@kieranmtorn bonding stones are OP and their nerf makes sense. If x3 R12's give characters 198% stats from their companion the additional 2 ranks in mod 12b would be over 230%, that's far too much. A number of players were not permitted in groups because they didn't have 3 R12 bonding stones and there were no other alternatives.
In mod 12b dungeon difficulty will be brought up to where it "should" be. The stats from the changes/additional ranks of enchantments will essentially more than compensate the nerf of bonding stones. Also the bag space that will be available due to the reduction of carrying various refinement items will be a blessing to a number of players who run with the 3 quest bags.
Players that spend money on particular items (BiS enchantments) may later find themselves in a position where there investment is no longer as viable/replaced with something more effective (short lived). Some investments live longer/provide a "better return" than others (legendary mount vs epic mounts available for all characters).
The beauty of Neverwinter is that players don't have to spend money. Players here and there threatening not to spend money is arguably not a decent tactic when opposing changes, there are a number of players that continually spend considerable amounts of money on the game and looking at it from a business perspective, they compensate for a considerable amounts of players that don't spend any money.
Post edited by trinity706#8838 on
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kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
I actually happen to agree on the bonding stones are OP, but that was clearly known before the buffs that brought them to 285%. I provided feedback at the time as to that fact (ie going to 285%), as did many others. But when you take away progression only to resell back to us, I have to assume the worst. I have no more benefit of the doubt left to give.
I know the following is not Cryptic's intention but I predict that will happen: level 70 will private group with level 70's to run random level dungeon. Level 70 does not want low level to slow them down. They don't want to take the chance to have leaver penalty of their fast run. There will be a lot of level 70 want to do fast run (no shortage of party members). They will not spoil low level people most of the time because the low level will be 'excluded'.
Slight correction: a low-level person will not "slow down" an L70 in a levelling dungeon. Soloing those dungeons and running then with 3 L70s and running them with one L70 and two L30s all take exactly the same amount of time, since all the monsters in levelling dungeons, including bosses, die near-instantly to any L70. So the entire time required is the time to run from point A to point B and wait through the cutscenes, no matter how many L70s you have along.
What I predict: People who really want AD will group up and take turns "running" the dungeon with 2 other L70s using /follow and AFK, because the levelling content *cannot* affect an L70 and there's no work or thought required.
The issue really is the levelling dungeons, and how bad they are.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
@asterdahl . I Have a question why in pvp private queue you allow to have any composition you like but you dont give rewards? Why this do not apply also to pve? To use the private queue more for testings and give no reward at all. OR if you use private queue to get rewards only if you are 1 heal 1 tank 3 dps. You create unbalance with the freedom you give to the players.
This is my first and last post i'll make in here. Congratulations! You made it! Today my guild gave up and decided to leave the game. Of course i'll go with them because they're my friends but i never wanted to go. So this is seven less people playing your game due to your "game design". I hope you're happy with what you've done because i'm not. Have a nice time everyone.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,237Arc User
I know the following is not Cryptic's intention but I predict that will happen: level 70 will private group with level 70's to run random level dungeon. Level 70 does not want low level to slow them down. They don't want to take the chance to have leaver penalty of their fast run. There will be a lot of level 70 want to do fast run (no shortage of party members). They will not spoil low level people most of the time because the low level will be 'excluded'.
Slight correction: a low-level person will not "slow down" an L70 in a levelling dungeon. Soloing those dungeons and running then with 3 L70s and running them with one L70 and two L30s all take exactly the same amount of time, since all the monsters in levelling dungeons, including bosses, die near-instantly to any L70. So the entire time required is the time to run from point A to point B and wait through the cutscenes, no matter how many L70s you have along.
What I predict: People who really want AD will group up and take turns "running" the dungeon with 2 other L70s using /follow and AFK, because the levelling content *cannot* affect an L70 and there's no work or thought required.
The issue really is the levelling dungeons, and how bad they are.
Yes and no. A L70 will not fight and run non-stop until he reaches the barrier and kill all the mob at once. They don't even want to kill them all (if some mob do not catch up), just enough to open the barrier and continue. That means some mob will be left behind. If L30 is walking slower than the lead L70 and usually do, they will need to fight them and they could die. They may even hit them (by "mistake") and get the aggro. Hence, they will slow down. If the L70 is a TR, it can be better because he could just run with path of blade. Mob will be killed with 3 hits.
That also brings up one thing. Players should take away the pet because that also can slow it down. When I solo the level dungeon, I kept on waiting for my pet in front of the barrier and it brought the mob. I was in combat mode and could not open the barrier. I could have cut some time there if I knew better.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
The low level people aren't 'IN' on the plan and may wander around try to fight things, no matter how inconvenient this is to the speed runners. Ultimately people will learn that the best way to run this 'content' is to grab 2 others from guild or alliance or /zone and queue with a full party, meaning that the intended benefits of faster queue pops will be mostly negated.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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Cryptic obviously want push this new system through our throats no matter what and of course they are not stupid and they will make sure it will work. Maybe not at the start of mod12b but adjust things later. So we can expect big nerfs of hardest content to be able to pugging, which are not doable now.
some players can amass rad through alts, but obviously these alts are tanks and healers. And they are only reason dps characters are in the dungeon and not waiting in que forever.
so in the final we get toxic que environmet, players leaving instances during first min and make a new try on other character. and definitely ques will not popping quickly but exactly opposite because lack of support classes in the ques overall, especially in new famous random que
While ever the number of DPS outweighs the ratio required of support, queue parity simply can't exist.
Unless there are substantially more clerics and tanks to dps above 11k. In which case the only reason queues pop faster will be that fewer lower IL dps are allowed to do the queue and skew the ratio.
All it means is that the unpopular queues pop faster at the expense of the popular.
This is a stated goal of the system...
Let me try and be as clear as I can. The simple, very basic, reason something is unpopular boils down to one thing.
People Don't Want To Do It.
And you know what the MOST unpopular dungeons are?
The ones that see people begging in chat for groups.
This system corals players toward those dungeons. It's not "random" at all. The only way this systems ever applîes a random element is for full groups of five or if no one at all across the entire platform is queuing for anything. Because if there is even ONE person already queuing for a particular dungeon, you go there to fill that persons queue.
That's not "random" that's "we send you where we want you to go." which is inevitably to the queues you would be unlikely to choose yourself.
This is ALL about making unpopular content appear more popular than it really is.
My main is a typical support character - a 16.2K IL DO DC. My playing time is limited - work and family takes priority, so when I run something it has to be fun AND worth my time.
The main problem is the following:
The Mod 12B Random Queue changes are an attempt to get rid of the symptoms of the problem but they do nothing to fix the underlying cause. The result is that they do nothing to encourage a support character like me to use Random Queues, and thus do not help with the queue wait times.
Now, I run two kinds of dungeons. On one hand I may run just about anything with my guild/alliance members - typically eToS, eLoL or CN, but occasionally eGWD, IG, KR or, well...just about anything except the leveling dungeons. After mod 12B hits, I expect there will be less demand for this type of run, simply because many of the lower-geared players do not have everything unlocked yet, so they cannot run the random epic dungeon queues. They have a choice of running boring leveling dungeons and get bonus AD or run more interesting content but not get the bonus AD.
Not very motivating, is it? That will probably mean fewer dungeon runs and more player frustration.
On the other hand I may run something for my own benefit. The requirement that it is "fun" removes the leveling dungeons. The requirement that it be worth my time removes most of the rest - face it, the reward/effort ratio for some of the content like mSP is beyond pathetic.
So, there is no reason why I would want to use a random queue when I want to do something for my own benefit. I could end up in something that is not fun, not rewarding or takes too long for the time I have.
However, T9G is left. It is fun, and the rewards are good enough for it to be worth my time - pretty decent salvage, and the seals are useful for the IL 500 items - a few of which are actually BiS for one of my loadouts or another.
The thing is though...T9G is tough. I would never consider running it with a random PUG. This is even more true now with two of the primary DC debuff powers broken, and will remain true after Mod 12B is released because of the bonding runestone nerf which will make the hardest content even harder.
No, I will only run T9G with a group that I trust to complete it. (Highly geared/skilled people from my guild/alliance or for example people from Zerg_Legion). Currently we could use random queues with a premade group for that, but that is only because it is the only dungeon in its difficulty category ... and no, this will not help with queue wait times for T9G - but nobody PUGs for that anyhow.
> my two cents -
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> Cryptic obviously want push this new system through our throats no matter what and of course they are not stupid and they will make sure it will work. Maybe not at the start of mod12b but adjust things later. So we can expect big nerfs of hardest content to be able to pugging, which are not doable now.
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> This system corals players toward those dungeons. It's not "random" at all. The only way this systems ever applîes a random element is for full groups of five or if no one at all across the entire platform is queuing for anything. Because if there is even ONE person already queuing for a particular dungeon, you go there to fill that persons queue.
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> That's not "random" that's "we send you where we want you to go." which is inevitably to the queues you would be unlikely to choose yourself.
>
> This is ALL about making unpopular content appear more popular than it really is.
LOL, this is too true. After all their BS reasons for adding this, it won't really be random at all. They will effectively be forcing unpopular content down our throats.
When RQ'ing alone players will not know who they will be grouped with and a character being of higher level (70) the player in control will probably more than likely prefer to complete the content as fast as possible meaning if they are grouped with lower level characters that type of progress could be impeded. As one of a number of reasons. Sounds about right, and for very good reason.
In the past large amounts of AD was generated from little effort. Players were running content they "didn't like" for RAD, with the RQ system it will pretty much be the same thing, essentially without being able to manually select the easiest out of all the available content.
A number of players probably won't RQ epic dungeons/trials, currently most players don't public queue for higher content anyway, for the most part they private queue outside of the Tank, Healer, 3 DPS structure which wouldn't qualify for RQ in the first place.
With the RQ system players that can tackle higher content with a "standard group" will be rewarded by being able achieve more bonus AD instead of pretty much all players being capable of achieving the same amounts of bonus RAD as it is pre-Mod12b (2 dungeons, 2 skirmishes, 2 PvP matches for the maximum bonus RAD for completion). With Mob 12b players will have to unlock campaigns, progress them and be of the appropriate ilvl and those that do and can complete the higher content will net more bonus RAD for their efforts which makes sense since they aren't simply selecting the easiest content for their bonus RAD which many players do.
Players that don't RQ or don't RQ epic/trial content will have more time to do other things in-game or IRL. It will about half the time to run 1 RQ dungeon and skirmish than it did to run 2 of each before with respective changes to RAD yields.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
In my case the old option could take something between 25-40minutes. And it is content which I "like" or am very used to at least. With the new option it would take me at least 40minutes, maybe giving me content which I don't like.
So there is really no improvement for me and I won't do any content I don't like. I also learned NOT to random queue if I wasn't prepared to carry a whole group of ... uhm ... people having no luck with their thinking... if you get my drift...
If we set that aside, the new method gives you a choice to earn AD through level dungeon. The dungeon you probably don't like. I tried that in weekend for all 3-man level dungeons to have an estimation of the time. Even my weakest level 70 toon can finish one in 14 minutes in solo (and I also pick up stuff from the ground and certain inventory management in the process). So, if there is a channel to recruit level 70 players for these 3 men level dungeon run for the sole purpose of AD (and not about fun), the party can door to door all the way with less than 14 minutes.
A more fair comparison is: your old option 25 to 40 minutes with 'fun' dungeons vs new option of 14 minutes of "no fun" dungeon.
I am not saying the new option is better or worse because I cannot measure fun but that is a better illustration of the difference. In my example, there is no issue about 'carrying' because that can be solo. As long as the party (of your choice) is capable to run to the end, that can be finished fast.
1 Skirmish (1-2 items) and 1 Dungeon (no salvage from <lvl 70 dungions?) vs ~5-6 items on average from those 2/2 Dungeons/Skirmishes formerly run. And don't even start with that ridiculus amount of bonus seals, that isn't even 1/3 of an item...
- Around 20 minutes pre-Mod 12b
- With Mod 12b around 30 minutes (that's with getting x2 15 minute or so RQ's which there is about 1 in the normal dungeon section and 1 in the skirmish section), though the longer content isn't always chosen by the RQ system, sometimes 2 "five minute" queues are chosen.
Pre-Mod 12b a number of players "like" to select the "5 minute" content
In your case the 25-50 minutes could very well drop to around 10-15 minutes at least some of the time, your average time spent will more the likely drop.
@plasticbat "fun" is often a "shield" term a number of players use LoL. Shield term meaning even though the term "fun" is used sometimes it doesn't actually describe something in the same sense.
A 5 minute run ("fun") vs a 8 minute run ("not fun").
You can still run the content you want for salvage value.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Now, what if the game changed and said only way to earn RAD is via PvP? How many people would leave, and also how many that enjoy PvP would be upset about getting people that are only running it fof RAD not the competition.
That is in essence what the game is doing now, run something you don't like or no RAD. It will upset both sides, those forced into it, and those lower ilvl toons that won't get full experience since a high ilvl will blow thru stuff.
Also, making a premade group and using RQ is a joke. Pre-made group will just abandon instance on elite RQ until they get the one they want.
level 70 will private group with level 70's to run random level dungeon. Level 70 does not want low level to slow them down.
They don't want to take the chance to have leaver penalty of their fast run. There will be a lot of level 70 want to do fast run (no shortage of party members). They will not spoil low level people most of the time because the low level will be 'excluded'. Again, that is not dev's intention but that probably will be the result. They can but they will have leaver penalty and cannot queue again for 30 minutes. They can all change toon though.
I usually run places like MC VT ELOL (the faster ones) or ECC, EGWD, CN
I'm to weak for FBI, MSP and T9G and i know that, if i for any reason enter a Random queue ( i will not ) and happen to be placed thetre i will call a "Kick me pls i'm useless here!!!" before the start... i will not be carried by other players...
> Look at this from a different viewpoint. I run 2 skirmishes, 2 dungeons daily via public queue (dread,kessel,etos,gwd) and I give up the possible RAD from PVE. Why do I give up that extra RAd, simple: I can't stand PvP for numerous reasons. Now the game is ok with this, I am not forced to run pvp n I dont get the benefits.
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> Now, what if the game changed and said only way to earn RAD is via PvP? How many people would leave, and also how many that enjoy PvP would be upset about getting people that are only running it fof RAD not the competition.
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> There are enough stuff to argue and fight for already. We don't need more what if. There are many "what if" that you like and other does not like and vice versa.
> That is in essence what the game is doing now, run something you don't like or no RAD. It will upset both sides, those forced into it, and those lower ilvl toons that won't get full experience since a high ilvl will blow thru stuff.
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> I know the following is not Cryptic's intention but I predict that will happen:
> level 70 will private group with level 70's to run random level dungeon. Level 70 does not want low level to slow them down.
> They don't want to take the chance to have leaver penalty of their fast run. There will be a lot of level 70 want to do fast run (no shortage of party members). They will not spoil low level people most of the time because the low level will be 'excluded'. Again, that is not dev's intention but that probably will be the result.
> Also, making a premade group and using RQ is a joke. Pre-made group will just abandon instance on elite RQ until they get the one they want.
>
> They can but they will have leaver penalty and cannot queue again for 30 minutes. They can all change toon though.
For your last part, 5 man premade group gets FBI via RQ, and doesn't want to run it. How I understand it, the group can vote to abandon instance and no leaver penalty. Only if they just left one at a time and didn't vote group would penalty be put in place.
How many is "multiple" was not stated. Must the boss be the end boss? I did not see that stated neither.
Players that now run 2 dungeons and 2 skirmishes on their alts or bot accounts are already running Cloak Tower and Master of the Hunt, the very easiest possible choices, and will RQ for one of a range of leveling dungeons which will be no less difficult unless they just get lost. They will make slightly less RAD in less time and probably be fine with that.
New level 70s will have forgotten completely about RQs once they finally qualify for the Epic Dungeon RQ, and nobody that would qualify for it when it rolls out would find a random FBI or MSP PUG fun.
We have enough broken stuff in the game already without introducing more features no one will use.
Now, if you will excuse me, I need to go take all my Black Ice Paraphernalia to the Stronghold Siege Map and bury it with my epic shovel.
Martin ConDion PVE only Ranger
Guild Founder: -HunterS-
@rafaelda (and similar)
As far as excluding higher level characters from lower level content, what if something similar was to be done for campaigns? In other words newer campaigns having a minimum ilvl requirement essentially excluding lower ilvl players from accessing them?
There are fresh level 70 characters in Chult getting destroyed. It's funny that "some" players see higher level characters as a "problem" when they are in lower level content but when lower level players are in content that they are clearly not fit for the presence of higher level players is not seen as a problem then.
The under fit players are arguably "ruining" the experience for higher level players because they are taking up space in instances appropriately leveled characters could utilize for content such as heroic encounters, etc.
If the ideas for exclusion only go in one direction it is biased.
@preechr - Are you sure they will forget? Most players will not forget about obtaining RAD, especially when they are accustomed to getting them easy anyway...
If new level 70 (players) that in time qualify for epic dungeon RQ "forget" about the normal dungeon and skirmish RQ's that is upon them, they will still be there for those that realize the possibility of getting a slightly longer normal dungeon/skirmish means very little and those that can handle RQ'ing higher content.
There are a number of improvements, essentially:
- more time for players that in the past ran 2+2 (normal dungeons, skirmishes).
- less RAD in circulation.
- unpopular queues popping faster since RQ's will involve "all" content of a section.
- players that run higher content being rewarded for their efforts.
- AFK farmers/bots will be effected.
- less server issues (lag) if the number of players that claim they will stop playing in fact do.
- etc.
@namelesshero347 - Spot on. There is a LOT of RAD being generated from very little effort which effects the game as a whole.
@arcticblitz so players with RAD mules/little to no intention to get campaign boons that will make their characters more viable can jump in queues with others forcing them to pick up their slack? No thanks.
@kieranmtorn bonding stones are OP and their nerf makes sense. If x3 R12's give characters 198% stats from their companion the additional 2 ranks in mod 12b would be over 230%, that's far too much. A number of players were not permitted in groups because they didn't have 3 R12 bonding stones and there were no other alternatives.
In mod 12b dungeon difficulty will be brought up to where it "should" be. The stats from the changes/additional ranks of enchantments will essentially more than compensate the nerf of bonding stones. Also the bag space that will be available due to the reduction of carrying various refinement items will be a blessing to a number of players who run with the 3 quest bags.
Players that spend money on particular items (BiS enchantments) may later find themselves in a position where there investment is no longer as viable/replaced with something more effective (short lived). Some investments live longer/provide a "better return" than others (legendary mount vs epic mounts available for all characters).
The beauty of Neverwinter is that players don't have to spend money. Players here and there threatening not to spend money is arguably not a decent tactic when opposing changes, there are a number of players that continually spend considerable amounts of money on the game and looking at it from a business perspective, they compensate for a considerable amounts of players that don't spend any money.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
What I predict: People who really want AD will group up and take turns "running" the dungeon with 2 other L70s using /follow and AFK, because the levelling content *cannot* affect an L70 and there's no work or thought required.
The issue really is the levelling dungeons, and how bad they are.
Why this do not apply also to pve? To use the private queue more for testings and give no reward at all.
OR if you use private queue to get rewards only if you are 1 heal 1 tank 3 dps.
You create unbalance with the freedom you give to the players.
This is my first and last post i'll make in here.
Congratulations! You made it! Today my guild gave up and decided to leave the game. Of course i'll go with them because they're my friends but i never wanted to go. So this is seven less people playing your game due to your "game design". I hope you're happy with what you've done because i'm not. Have a nice time everyone.
That also brings up one thing. Players should take away the pet because that also can slow it down. When I solo the level dungeon, I kept on waiting for my pet in front of the barrier and it brought the mob. I was in combat mode and could not open the barrier. I could have cut some time there if I knew better.