I've touched on this already, but I'll try to be more explicit—that said—I can't promise you'll find this explanation satisfactory:
We would like you all to engage in random queues, and the bonus AD is the incentive.
@asterdahl I'm afraid I will not be engaging in the random queues in any way, shape or form. I get most of my enjoyment from NW by choosing the content I am going to play. The random queues remove that option, so I will not be bothering with them no matter what incentive you choose to offer. In any case, restricting the bonus AD to random queues only is not providing an incentive, it is simply a form of blackmail.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
First, random queues do not in any sense "respect our play time". In fact it is exactly the opposite. The reason is the following:
If all content in a particular category took equally long to complete, was equally fun and equally rewarding, I would not have a problem with the random queues. This is, however, not the case - that is the underlying problem I have mentioned before, and that's one of the main reasons why random queues don't work.
What I play is frequently determined by how much play time I have - I may have time for a short skirmish or dungeon, but not a long one. Example: Yesterday I had 15 minutes while I was waiting for my dinner (well, a frozen pizza in the oven). I did have enough play time for something short, but not a 30+ minute run. Totally ignoring the issue of available play time does not count as "respecting" it - not in this universe at least.
If we want people to feel motivated to do all of the daily random queues and there are 10 of them, and because we divided up the pool of players looking to do queued content into even more categories
.....
There's only so much rough AD daily bonuses per day from random queues we can give out that the economy can support.
Ah, but you don't have to do it that way. Why not "You get a daily bonus the first time you do something in a particular category, maximum of 4 times". Then it does not matter how many categories you have - players can choose which categories they want to do. Players would be happier and you don't give out more RAD. It's a win-win.
If you want to encourage people to do some categories rather than others, well, make them give a better bonus.
We would like you all to engage in random queues, and the bonus AD is the incentive.
I am sorry, but that incentive does not compensate for the drawbacks, like enforced party composition, unpredicatble play time, and uncertain success. I might use random queues for skirmishes, as I normally PUG for them anyhow, but that's it - You will never see me in a random dungeon queue.
but both the random queue feature as well as upcoming adjustments to leaver penalties and vote kicks, as well as the new player bonuses are all meant to help improve the queue culture in Neverwinter.
You have been taking steps to to make this impact less awful than it looked at the beginning (like improving the rewards from some dungeons (as I have said before mSP rewards are beyond pathetic, and the main reason I refuse to waste my time on it), but I do not see the culture "improving" - I just see it suffer less than I feared a week ago.
If a group looks like it's going to have a few wipes, or perhaps even be a bit slower than average, in a lot of cases, people would rather not do it. I don't blame those of you who feel like putting up with a slow run or helping new players is not worth it, because currently it's not.
You are missing a big issue here, and that is a part of why the "culture" is not going to improve. For random PUGs, what you said is pretty much accurate. If there is a wipe at the first boss, typically someone will leave and the group may collapse. However, nobody goes into a PUG with the intention of "helping new players".
You really need to consider guild runs and the effects of those. A good (non-elite) guild will frequently have players of different skill and gear levels. In my guild/alliance you will frequently have a run where some players are grossly overgeared for the content, but do it anyhow, either to assist a new player through the content or to help them gear up. Such groups are much more tolerant of failures, and will typically keep trying until they succeed.
Works great, and is good to help build a sense of community within the guild/alliance. Now consider how the proposed changes will affect this type of runs.
If we do a private run, we will get the same as we currently do, except lose the bonus AD, which can be quite an issue for the new players. It's not the primary reason for the run, but it helps if you are a new 70.
We cannot really do a Random Queue run to help people gear up, because they might be after something that only drops in a particular dungeon.
We cannot do a Random Queue to help people to learn how to do some particular content because there is no guarantee we will end up there.
A guild run like this typically includes the first few people who express interest. There is no guarantee whatsoever we will have a Healer+Tank+3DPS. Being forced to fill the group in that way will just make people feel excluded.
So, no matter how I look at it, you are giving us a lose-lose situation.
I've just implemented an account unlock for Fangbreaker Island locally and will be doing so for all other queues that require an unlock from a campaign. Once all of the unlocks are in, this change will be pushed to preview and go live alongside random queues.
Now THAT is a much-appreciated game changer. I do (sometimes loudly) criticize what I consider to be bad decisions, but not all your decisions are bad - this is a really good one.
In fact, if you had decided to do this originally, people would probably have complained a lot less about the random queues.
Will account wide dungeon unlocks only be for Fangbreaker Island?
If not, account wide dungeon unlocks for content like Tomb of Annihilation (Tomb of the Nine Gods) would be quite abusable.
Players with multiple characters would essentially have the ability to increase the weekly cap of 400 by "x" depending on the number of characters able to run the content and essentially be able to get all pieces of the Primal Armor set for a particular class in as little as 2 weeks worth of dungeon runs with 4 characters (Week 1: Character 1, head, C2, arms, C3, feet. Week 2: C4, chest).
Account wide dungeon unlocks could very well work for older mods though not so much for the current highest content.
Post edited by trinity706#8838 on
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
We hear a lot of you saying you're not going to be able to do the random epic dungeon right away because you're not at 11k yet. I've already mentioned getting 11k is going to be easier than ever, and our data is showing a lot of you already have a character at 11k, so we're not overly concerned about this. Gaining access to that random queue will be something to aspire to for a short while, and we think overall it won't be that time consuming for most people to get there when it goes live.
Give me account dungeon unlock, and I can actually do stuff.
Done.
I've just implemented an account unlock for Fangbreaker Island locally and will be doing so for all other queues that require an unlock from a campaign. Once all of the unlocks are in, this change will be pushed to preview and go live alongside random queues.
The way the account unlock will work: once any character on your account has completed the task, the next time you log in on any character that's level 70—a notification will appear in the middle of your screen that looks like an achievement that will read like "Fangbreaker Island: Account Unlock"—at that point, the task will be automatically completed in the campaign and you will be able to access the queue.
For those who have already completed the task on one character on your account, please note: you must log into the character who has completed the task at least one time once the changes go live for the account unlock to register on other characters.
Players with multiple characters would essentially have the ability to increase the weekly cap of 400 by "x" depending on the number of characters able to run the content and essentially be able to get all pieces of the Primal Armor set for a particular class in as little as 2 weeks worth of dungeon runs with 4 characters (Week 1: Character 1, head, C2, arms, C3, feet. Week 2: C4, chest)
I don't think devs are too concerned about this because the number of players with multiple viable toons able to do the latest end game content is very small. And if they can do it, then why not. They've earned the right to do it.
I'm sure the devs are more concerned about how today, anyone with alts with enough iLvl to get into eToS (which isn't too hard to do now with mod 12 gear) can queue up for eToS twice a day, get carried, and get the max RAD for the day to pass to their main. This can be done in like 30 minutes or so.
The recent private queue change made it much easier. Now all the BiS and near BiS DPS can easily solo eToS and not have to wait for the queue. This means the min iLvL DPS toons now have shorter wait times. You only need one HDPS to have a fairly fast run, and there are still more than enough 12/13/14K DPS toons in the queue.
Yeah, please let's have the account wide unlock as standard. And I'm saying that as someone with 4 characters that have TONG unlocked anyway - I still like the change. And in Chult campaign there's a benefit for unlocking it whether you want the dungeon or not.
you are all rejoicing over this HAMSTER but the multitude of changes coming in 12B will make all dungeons more difficult to do, essentially 12k players turn into 10k players, so every dungeon will be either more time consuming or impossible to carry under geared/stat deficient players through them. Who wants to spend 2+ hours doing old content for a token increase of AD......
Edit- as posted by a few above my post, I have no problems helping out guild mates and Alliance members get gear they need but that is when I have plenty of time on my hands. This destroys my limited play time for very little reward.
Sticking me with FBI or Spellplague **now with bonus everyone's undergeared, under-booned alts!!** instead of ETOS or ESOT is the opposite of respecting my playtime.
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rifter1969Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 516Arc User
@asterdahl I want to first thank you for taking the time to write the detailed explanations and to answer a lot of people questions about the random queues and AD gain.
Also.... WOW!!!! on the account wide dungeon unlocks... that is amazing news.
As for the improved rewards for FBI and mSP... OK... that's at least a step in the right direction since that has been a super big complaint since it was released.
You have answered, or at least tried to explain a lot of point with the random queue system. And well.. I have the say that the system isn't perfect, and you are right there are going to be growing pains with it. But, it is slightly better than it was.
But, I still want one question answered or explained....
If... and this was one of your point in the original post, you (Cryptic as a whole) are look to increase variety with end game content.... then why.... WHY!!!! have the old dungeons not made a return yet??????
Epic Dread Vault... Epic Throne of Idris... Epic Lair of the Mad Dragon... and epic versions of Cloak Tower, Frozen Heart, Caverns of Karundux.
I mean... there are players that have never experienced those dungeons... you want to give us variety... give us MORE choices
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jiubiizeekkMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 144Arc User
they aren't going to make tiers because that is going to allow people to continue skipping MSP and other content that isn't rewarding
One thing I would like to take a moment to announce is that we're making the following adjustments to rewards in Fangbreaker and Spellplague Caverns (Master) for Module 12B. These are changes that we've been looking into making based on feedback, and now that you may randomly end up in Spellplague as part of Random: Epic Dungeon, we want to make sure you don't feel like you landed a dud.
Here are the pertinent patch notes that you should be seeing on preview in the not too distant future:
A piece of elven equipment is now guaranteed from both chests in Fangbreaker Island.
A piece of elven equipment is now guaranteed from both chests in Spellplague Caverns (Master).
Both chests in Spellplague Caverns (Master) now have a chance of granting an Ostorian ring.
The final boss in Spellplague Caverns (Master) now drops a Wicked Enchantment, Rank 8; as opposed to a chance of either a Rank 5, 6 or 7. (The chance of dropping a wicked enchantment has not been reduced.)
Those rewards are utter poopie For the amount of time you spend in a dungeon..... Elven is equal to 4.5k salvage? for upto an hours work? I haven't even done spell plague yet simply because Everytime i've heard of it, my guildies have spent 1-2 hours in there. and have only ever gotten a rank 5 enchantment. This isn't about the total AD in game. In fact, my guess is 90% of the accounts in game that have AD are no longer played. And the fact that the AD sinks are either a 1 time thing. a complete dud or, Eventually people run out of Superior marks to buy.
@preechr what you feel is "actually playing the game" and "making an honest profit" doesn't define what is. Players that play differently are playing no more, no less and make just as honest of a profit.
Players may deem XYZ boons as things other than positive though they still have their relevance and choosing to skip them is the choice of the player and also the repercussions.
As this is a game, I wouldn't disparage anyone for playing it however they want as long as it doesn't affect others... If Cryptic paid 1 RAD for running into a wall, I'm sure people would quickly figure out which walls were best for that. As this is a Dungeons and Dragons based game, I disagree, though I respect your opinion and your choices. If you and I and a few other friends were getting together once or twice a week to play PnP and all you ever wanted to do was the easiest content, over and over again, you wouldn't be invited back. DnD is the soul of this game, and I hope the players and the developers never forget that.
> @rifter1969 said: > @asterdahl > I want to first thank you for taking the time to write the detailed explanations and to answer a lot of people questions about the random queues and AD gain. > > Also.... WOW!!!! on the account wide dungeon unlocks... that is amazing news. > > As for the improved rewards for FBI and mSP... OK... that's at least a step in the right direction since that has been a super big complaint since it was released. > > You have answered, or at least tried to explain a lot of point with the random queue system. And well.. I have the say that the system isn't perfect, and you are right there are going to be growing pains with it. But, it is slightly better than it was. > > But, I still want one question answered or explained.... > > If... and this was one of your point in the original post, you (Cryptic as a whole) are look to increase variety with end game content.... then why.... WHY!!!! have the old dungeons not made a return yet?????? > > Epic Dread Vault... Epic Throne of Idris... Epic Lair of the Mad Dragon... and epic versions of Cloak Tower, Frozen Heart, Caverns of Karundux. > > > I mean... there are players that have never experienced those dungeons... you want to give us variety... give us MORE choices
And not gated behind a campaign... bring back 2-3 at a time, or more... all leveling dungeons should have an epic version...that way the transition for new players is familiar, but stronger... harder to complete. On xbox we still have many achievements left incomplete because they were available premod6 and no longer are. This infuriates console players when they cant be completed. At some point you need to take a "b mod" and correct leftovers from past modules that are no longer relevant. Some just need removed and some need to be unlocked and returned to us. The dungeons have been promised from the day they were removed.
I don't think the problem is that more people want to do FBI or MSPC on their alts.
Sure, not having to do SKT to unlock ANYTHING is good, cos it means that just like I never intended to... I won't be playing SKT on any of my alts.
The problem remains... the disparity between CN and the 11k dungeons, and the vast swathe of SUB 11K players who could be given the keys to the city by way of unlocks who still won't be able to queue for level appropriate dungeons under the random queue system. People for whom this account wide unlock on all 11k+ alts does the square root of sod all. Those insignificant duds who don't even have a main past 10k. The only people who benefit from this are those with a stable of 11k alts... so on behalf of all those players yet to hit the dizzy heights and unlock that pile of donkey stools on ONE character let me say,
"Great way to look out for the little guys"
But what hell... acct wide unlock lets you coral even more people into Project "Please get people playing these end game dungeons". And I hate to sound like a broken record, but... that's what this is all about. Otherwise all these work arounds would be utterly unnecessary and you'd do the one thing môst people seem to agree would work best, and move FBI and MSP into the Hero's Accord category and be done with it... But oh... I forgot... "seals of the brave" or something... that's the fundamental road block to common sense restructuring of this mess. Yeah...
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,233Arc User
Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity.
First, this RQ approach will not happen the way as you wish. You make people to do unpopular tasks which cannot be a popular decision. If you want people to do unpopular thing, increase reward to it to make it popular. Give something extra for the unpopular dungeon which based on number of visit of the community. Re-adjust the reward based on the (say) monthly popularity.
Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety.
This random queue approach makes people burn out more than ever. You are increasing burn out. If choosing the dungeon making people burn out, I fail to see how "could not choose the dungeon" is improving anything.
Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals.
This is not a feature of a random queue. You can do that without random queue.
Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content.
This is also not a feature of a random queue. The game has something similar already except it does not give AD. You don't need random queue to implement that. Say, get a quest from Knox. After you finish all N dungeons in the list, go back to Knox to get extra AD. That can be a weekly task.
Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times.
Again, you don't need random queue to implement this. In addition, RQ is helping this.
Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment.
Again, you don't need random queue to implement this. In addition, RQ is helping this.
In short, you can fulfill most of your goals without implementing something everybody hate. I personally don't really care much because: 1. I probably will not do random queue. I am not actively pursue AD through dungeon/skirmish currently and certainly will not do so. 2. Even if I do random queue, it will not be the way that will fulfill your goal. That is not my intention to counter your gaols but unintentionally, I believe that would be the case.
Post edited by plasticbat on
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
The simple answer is—that's far too many random queues. The queue system has so many affordances (ways you can interact with it) as it is, that we'd like to keep it simple. Beyond just wanting to keep the system easy to understand—there's only so much rough AD daily bonuses per day from random queues we can give out that the economy can support. We're already cutting that pie into slices as small as we feel comfortable cutting them. If they get small enough there's little motivation to run them. (Many of you are already indicating you won't feel motivated to run some of them, and of course we'll be watching the data and making adjustments.)
On top of simplicity and the amount of daily bonus rewards the economy can absorb, if we break up the random queues into something that granular, we're also talking about breaking up the pools of players. If there's tier 1, 2 and 3, you might have a lot of end game players in 3, a lot of fresh 70s in 1 and very few players in 2. We'd like to divide our queued players as little as possible so things can pop nice and quick.
This extends to also respecting your play time and not overloading people with even more dailies. If we want people to feel motivated to do all of the daily random queues and there are 10 of them, and because we divided up the pool of players looking to do queued content into even more categories—some of those queues can take a while to pop—the daily commitment for random queues is going to be way too high. When there are already lots of other dailies in Neverwinter we'd like to not exacerbate that problem.
We hear a lot of you saying you're not going to be able to do the random epic dungeon right away because you're not at 11k yet. I've already mentioned getting 11k is going to be easier than ever, and our data is showing a lot of you already have a character at 11k, so we're not overly concerned about this. Gaining access to that random queue will be something to aspire to for a short while, and we think overall it won't be that time consuming for most people to get there when it goes live.
Thank you for adding loot to the dungeons that didn't have it, and thank you for unlocking FBI (as well as MSP and MSVA? Wasn't really clear...) but I feel like you are working really hard to avoid addressing the elephant in the room.
You cherry picked the guy that was asking for separate RQs for each tier, ignoring all the rest of us that are asking you to simply move MSP and FBI into Hero's Accord where they clearly belong...
WHY?!
Honestly, man... Did you really read through all these posts and come to the conclusion that all we needed to buy into RQs was a free FBI pass for our alts?
Can you please at least confirm that you have read and understand that many people have stated they do not believe FBI and MSP belong in epic RQ because they require Campaign Unlocks, special gear, and a degree of skill and teamwork orders of magnitude above what is needed to successfully pug T1s and T2s?
So lets say (being a working person with limited play time) its close to where I want to go to bed. I hop on my HR who currently has everything unlocked but To9G and MSVA (because F SOMI) - I want to cap her AD before I go to bed.
Right now I would burn through an eToS and an eLoL or CN quickly, then call it a night. Now I have to take the chance at a 2+hour catastrophe in FBI or MSPC to get that AD.
Last night I ran 1 FBI, 2 CN and 2 eToS. If I hadn't gotten the free rad I wouldn't have gotten my RAD cap. You know why? Because in all of those I didn't get a single boss drop other than a bound mount insignia off of Drufi. You know what the chests had? I ended up with 2 salvagable rings and a sword transmute. So in 36 bosses - no drops other than something to throw in the mimic. In 6 chests opened (because F making extra keys for your junk) I got less than the cap for one character in salvage. AND THAT'S A NORMAL NIGHT FOR ME.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
So lets say (being a working person with limited play time) its close to where I want to go to bed. I hop on my HR who currently has everything unlocked but To9G and MSVA (because F SOMI) - I want to cap her AD before I go to bed.
Right now I would burn through an eToS and an eLoL or CN quickly, then call it a night. Now I have to take the chance at a 2+hour catastrophe in FBI or MSPC to get that AD.
No. If you queue for an Epic Random dungeon, you have a 2/9 chance of hitting FBI or MSP, and no matter what you hit, you make 5K AD (+10% VIP, +50% prayer bonus)
Instead, if all you want is AD, you should run a random LEVELLING dungeon, which will not challenge you at all, will bore you, that your *companion* could solo without you, where your presence will ruin the experience for any non-L70 in your group, and which will grant you more than 10K AD with VIP and prayer bonus. Because for some reason Cryptic wants level 70s to spend their time in unchallenging content and has moved the rewards so that content that isn't challenging or fun has much greater rewards than level-appropriate content.
After you've gotten your 10K AD for levelling boredom, then you can private queue for ETOS or CN or whatever in search of salvage. Or go Random and hope for that 7/9 easy 5K more, or that you get an FBI party that can run it.
(Also, if you hit FBI or MSP, you can ask your party to kick you, refuse to participate until they kick you, or just leave. Only leaving carries a penalty, and you can swap characters or just do something else for 30 minutes before queueing up for another 7/9 chance of getting a puggable dungeon)
Last night I ran 1 FBI, 2 CN and 2 eToS. If I hadn't gotten the free rad I wouldn't have gotten my RAD cap. You know why? Because in all of those I didn't get a single boss drop other than a bound mount insignia off of Drufi. You know what the chests had? I ended up with 2 salvagable rings and a sword transmute. So in 36 bosses - no drops other than something to throw in the mimic. In 6 chests opened (because F making extra keys for your junk) I got less than the cap for one character in salvage. AND THAT'S A NORMAL NIGHT FOR ME.
At least FBI will have more salvagable loot in the future?
Will account wide dungeon unlocks only be for Fangbreaker Island?
If not, account wide dungeon unlocks for content like Tomb of Annihilation (Tomb of the Nine Gods) would be quite abusable.
Players with multiple characters would essentially have the ability to increase the weekly cap of 400 by "x" depending on the number of characters able to run the content and essentially be able to get all pieces of the Primal Armor set for a particular class in as little as 2 weeks worth of dungeon runs with 4 characters (Week 1: Character 1, head, C2, arms, C3, feet. Week 2: C4, chest).
Account wide dungeon unlocks could very well work for older mods though not so much for the current highest content.
People can already do ToNG on as many characters as they want and get 400 seals on each of them each week.
And then what does it matter to you how long it's taking them to get a set of primal armor? If they have 3 characters strong enough to complete ToNG they definitely deserve to get three times the seals.
Will account wide dungeon unlocks only be for Fangbreaker Island?
If not, account wide dungeon unlocks for content like Tomb of Annihilation (Tomb of the Nine Gods) would be quite abusable.
Players with multiple characters would essentially have the ability to increase the weekly cap of 400 by "x" depending on the number of characters able to run the content and essentially be able to get all pieces of the Primal Armor set for a particular class in as little as 2 weeks worth of dungeon runs with 4 characters (Week 1: Character 1, head, C2, arms, C3, feet. Week 2: C4, chest).
Account wide dungeon unlocks could very well work for older mods though not so much for the current highest content.
OR I could just switch to my DC and answer one of the dozends of lfm DC posts, instead of waiting for hours, to run a newer dungeon with my CW. Making everyone's life easier.
On a side note, no I wont stop unlocking dungeons with my main, and switch to DC or GF, bc the CW is my main since beta and the rest comes second, including all the ppl who run DDs as a main for a year and complain about the other players doing the same.
I don't think devs are too concerned about this because the number of players with multiple viable toons able to do the latest end game content is very small.
I'm sure the devs are more concerned about how today, anyone with alts with enough iLvl to get into eToS (which isn't too hard to do now with mod 12 gear) can queue up for eToS twice a day, get carried, and get the max RAD for the day to pass to their main.
Says who?
Hopefully the question about SKT account wide dungeon unlock being for that campaign only or not will be answered. A number of players feel that post Mods having account wide dungeon unlocks is pretty much fine while a current Mod isn't.
Some players actually tend to their other character(s) well enough for them to be able to run current Mod content and a number of them feel that account wide dungeon unlocks for a current Mod weakens their efforts and allows other players to just "skim" in and reap the benefits of current Mod content on multiple characters essentially by simply unlocking it on one character.
@preechr Do players running the same content over and over affect you? Players choosing not to get all campaign boons ARE affecting others though.
Neverwinter is DnD based, it's not full on DnD which allows different player types to get their "fill" however they see fit (within the rules).
PnP is a totally different subject.
Players know/will quickly learn that the "experience" of a session is what players often are seeking, though personally, if someone wanted to "play easy" PnP on this end they would be accommodated, possibly not even have to be present (could text or discord chat with them), how simple would it be to DM such a player? Would even try to coax them into being more involved though they wouldn't simply be excluded due to their preference of play.
@artifleur, @asterotg Private queues allow for 10k ilvl carries so again, with an account wide dungeon unlock for the current Mod players can just "skim" to the top tier equipment simply by unlocking it on one character and having at least10k ilvl on other characters they would like to have carried as well, essentially bypassing a considerable amount of effort. There's a considerable difference between 11k and 10k ilvl.
Yet some players here are complaining about the time it takes to progress campaigns on multiple characters though at the same time want to be able to be carried in higher level content on multiple characters via account wide dungeon unlocks essentially skipping the progression progress on those characters AND getting top tier equipment, in other words, have their, cake, pie ice cream and eat it too LoL.
Running ETOS for AD is "fun" though the RQ system providing the chance other content is chosen isn't "fun"?
The RQ system arguably will respect the play time of players. After RQ'ing a normal dungeon and skirmish a number of players players will be done with it for the day and be free to do other things (unless they run ETOS to "top off") rather than running 2 of each in the past.
The RQ system won't always pick the longer content, a 5 min run and a 10 min run is still less time than running 4, 5 minute runs, it's a difference of 5 mins though it adds up over time. There are about 9 "shorter" epic dungeons and 3 "longer" ones, fairly good odds, if players RQ and get something they don't like (find not "fun" simply because it takes longer) they can leave and take a "30 minute break"...
Often enough players dislike increased effort required to do X and or spending money and then increased efforts being required (especially).
Over the past few days in discussions a number of players stated that they disagree with Mod 12b changes because of the increased effort laid before them. When the dreaded dungeon key change was on the books a number of players here opposed it heavily and claimed it would break the game yet here they are still opposing the RQ system...
Changes are proposed, players weigh in (some even form elaborate scenarios of how detrimental they will be), changes come, players adapt or not. The proposed changes are presented to tackle a number of issues, breaking down the changes into individual player "hardships" takes it out of context of the larger scope. Collectively the changes can support the desires of the staff, tearing it all apart apart essentially harms this.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Will I be penalized for removing my gear before queuing to keep a toon from going into a certain dungeon?
Example, I have a CW and HR that I have not played and would not at all be comfortable taking them through an end game dungeon despite them being geared to enter. Am I going to be considered an exploiter if I lower the IL of those toons to less than 11k for queuing?
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Will account wide dungeon unlocks only be for Fangbreaker Island?
If not, account wide dungeon unlocks for content like Tomb of Annihilation (Tomb of the Nine Gods) would be quite abusable.
Players with multiple characters would essentially have the ability to increase the weekly cap of 400 by "x" depending on the number of characters able to run the content and essentially be able to get all pieces of the Primal Armor set for a particular class in as little as 2 weeks worth of dungeon runs with 4 characters (Week 1: Character 1, head, C2, arms, C3, feet. Week 2: C4, chest).
If someone want to carry your 10k unbooned char thought T9G 8 times per week so you can get the primal gear faster by a week. Then all the power to you and who ever carries you. It's definitely not less effort, it's quite the opposite, it's so much more effort that it defies any logic, and I don't want to go into other medical terminology to describe this.
Will I be penalized for removing my gear before queuing to keep a toon from going into a certain dungeon?
Example, I have a CW and HR that I have not played and would not at all be comfortable taking them through an end game dungeon despite them being geared to enter. Am I going to be considered an exploiter if I lower the IL of those toons to less than 11k for queuing?
It is not possible for you to queue at all unless you meet the gear score requirement for the entire random queue you are trying to sign up for.
Why does this question keep coming up? Why don't people read the OP?
I don't think the problem is that more people want to do FBI or MSPC on their alts.
Sure, not having to do SKT to unlock ANYTHING is good, cos it means that just like I never intended to... I won't be playing SKT on any of my alts.
The problem remains... the disparity between CN and the 11k dungeons, and the vast swathe of SUB 11K players who could be given the keys to the city by way of unlocks who still won't be able to queue for level appropriate dungeons under the random queue system. People for whom this account wide unlock on all 11k+ alts does the square root of sod all. Those insignificant duds who don't even have a main past 10k. The only people who benefit from this are those with a stable of 11k alts... so on behalf of all those players yet to hit the dizzy heights and unlock that pile of donkey stools on ONE character let me say,
"Great way to look out for the little guys"
But what hell... acct wide unlock lets you coral even more people into Project "Please get people playing these end game dungeons". And I hate to sound like a broken record, but... that's what this is all about. Otherwise all these work arounds would be utterly unnecessary and you'd do the one thing môst people seem to agree would work best, and move FBI and MSP into the Hero's Accord category and be done with it... But oh... I forgot... "seals of the brave" or something... that's the fundamental road block to common sense restructuring of this mess. Yeah...
How can you play for as long as you have and not be over 11k? My newest character is only 2-3 months old and is 12.5k. The only expensive(ish) item on them is their weapon enchantment.
Getting to 12k is not hard, especially now we can get +4 Ostorian rings for 300 protector seals, The Mysterious Merchant does decent gear for guild marks, RD weapons are farmable by anyone over 10k and r8 normal enchantments are around 30k each (or if you're really broke, r7's for 3k...).
5 blue mounts with blue insignias (60k), 5 blue companions (50k) - r8 bondings currently going for less than 20k each! And item level boosted by boon completion.
Even with no guild boons, a player should be able to reach 11k and not have to spend more than 500k AD. Scraping a mere 15k per day, that is less than 5 weeks of effort. The rest can be Underdark armor & Drowned weapons or even save up a bit more AD and buy blue gear for diamonds in Chult.
But I do actually agree that FBI and MSP should be in the Hero's Accord category...
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
No. If you queue for an Epic Random dungeon, you have a 2/9 chance of hitting FBI or MSP, and no matter what you hit, you make 5K AD (+10% VIP, +50% prayer bonus)
Only if no one anywhere in the game is already queuing for something. In either random OR traditional queues. You go where you are sent as determined by the length of time someone has been waiting. Since none of the sub 11K dudes will be able to queue for FBI and MSPC the pre 11k queues will fill up quicker with people queuing the old fashioned way, sorry but that's just common sense. The queues that will remain open the longest and therefore need your 11k character with Unlocks on FBI and MSP will be... FBI and MSP.
Random has nothing to do with where you go in this system unless you are a pre-made group of 11k+ well tooled heroes. Only THEY have earned the right to TRULY randomly land in Malabogs Castle...
Going to farm salvage for AD, like always, and run pug/guild groups, but not in random. This random que is totally flawed for progression and fun. If ya wanna see player kicks and failed runs multiply, do implement this change, be my quest.
Already there are people leaving because of this change is going be pushed through. Let us have freedom to gain AD in different ways.
Comments
First, random queues do not in any sense "respect our play time". In fact it is exactly the opposite. The reason is the following:
If all content in a particular category took equally long to complete, was equally fun and equally rewarding, I would not have a problem with the random queues. This is, however, not the case - that is the underlying problem I have mentioned before, and that's one of the main reasons why random queues don't work.
What I play is frequently determined by how much play time I have - I may have time for a short skirmish or dungeon, but not a long one. Example: Yesterday I had 15 minutes while I was waiting for my dinner (well, a frozen pizza in the oven). I did have enough play time for something short, but not a 30+ minute run. Totally ignoring the issue of available play time does not count as "respecting" it - not in this universe at least. Ah, but you don't have to do it that way. Why not "You get a daily bonus the first time you do something in a particular category, maximum of 4 times". Then it does not matter how many categories you have - players can choose which categories they want to do. Players would be happier and you don't give out more RAD. It's a win-win.
If you want to encourage people to do some categories rather than others, well, make them give a better bonus. I am sorry, but that incentive does not compensate for the drawbacks, like enforced party composition, unpredicatble play time, and uncertain success. I might use random queues for skirmishes, as I normally PUG for them anyhow, but that's it - You will never see me in a random dungeon queue. You have been taking steps to to make this impact less awful than it looked at the beginning (like improving the rewards from some dungeons (as I have said before mSP rewards are beyond pathetic, and the main reason I refuse to waste my time on it), but I do not see the culture "improving" - I just see it suffer less than I feared a week ago. You are missing a big issue here, and that is a part of why the "culture" is not going to improve. For random PUGs, what you said is pretty much accurate. If there is a wipe at the first boss, typically someone will leave and the group may collapse. However, nobody goes into a PUG with the intention of "helping new players".
You really need to consider guild runs and the effects of those. A good (non-elite) guild will frequently have players of different skill and gear levels. In my guild/alliance you will frequently have a run where some players are grossly overgeared for the content, but do it anyhow, either to assist a new player through the content or to help them gear up. Such groups are much more tolerant of failures, and will typically keep trying until they succeed.
Works great, and is good to help build a sense of community within the guild/alliance. Now consider how the proposed changes will affect this type of runs.
- If we do a private run, we will get the same as we currently do, except lose the bonus AD, which can be quite an issue for the new players. It's not the primary reason for the run, but it helps if you are a new 70.
- We cannot really do a Random Queue run to help people gear up, because they might be after something that only drops in a particular dungeon.
- We cannot do a Random Queue to help people to learn how to do some particular content because there is no guarantee we will end up there.
- A guild run like this typically includes the first few people who express interest. There is no guarantee whatsoever we will have a Healer+Tank+3DPS. Being forced to fill the group in that way will just make people feel excluded.
So, no matter how I look at it, you are giving us a lose-lose situation. Now THAT is a much-appreciated game changer. I do (sometimes loudly) criticize what I consider to be bad decisions, but not all your decisions are bad - this is a really good one.In fact, if you had decided to do this originally, people would probably have complained a lot less about the random queues.
Will account wide dungeon unlocks only be for Fangbreaker Island?
If not, account wide dungeon unlocks for content like Tomb of Annihilation (Tomb of the Nine Gods) would be quite abusable.
Players with multiple characters would essentially have the ability to increase the weekly cap of 400 by "x" depending on the number of characters able to run the content and essentially be able to get all pieces of the Primal Armor set for a particular class in as little as 2 weeks worth of dungeon runs with 4 characters (Week 1: Character 1, head, C2, arms, C3, feet. Week 2: C4, chest).
Account wide dungeon unlocks could very well work for older mods though not so much for the current highest content.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
I'm sure the devs are more concerned about how today, anyone with alts with enough iLvl to get into eToS (which isn't too hard to do now with mod 12 gear) can queue up for eToS twice a day, get carried, and get the max RAD for the day to pass to their main. This can be done in like 30 minutes or so.
The recent private queue change made it much easier. Now all the BiS and near BiS DPS can easily solo eToS and not have to wait for the queue. This means the min iLvL DPS toons now have shorter wait times. You only need one HDPS to have a fairly fast run, and there are still more than enough 12/13/14K DPS toons in the queue.
Edit- as posted by a few above my post, I have no problems helping out guild mates and Alliance members get gear they need but that is when I have plenty of time on my hands. This destroys my limited play time for very little reward.
I want to first thank you for taking the time to write the detailed explanations and to answer a lot of people questions about the random queues and AD gain.
Also.... WOW!!!! on the account wide dungeon unlocks... that is amazing news.
As for the improved rewards for FBI and mSP... OK... that's at least a step in the right direction since that has been a super big complaint since it was released.
You have answered, or at least tried to explain a lot of point with the random queue system. And well.. I have the say that the system isn't perfect, and you are right there are going to be growing pains with it. But, it is slightly better than it was.
But, I still want one question answered or explained....
If... and this was one of your point in the original post, you (Cryptic as a whole) are look to increase variety with end game content.... then why.... WHY!!!! have the old dungeons not made a return yet??????
Epic Dread Vault... Epic Throne of Idris... Epic Lair of the Mad Dragon... and epic versions of Cloak Tower, Frozen Heart, Caverns of Karundux.
I mean... there are players that have never experienced those dungeons... you want to give us variety... give us MORE choices
One thing I would like to take a moment to announce is that we're making the following adjustments to rewards in Fangbreaker and Spellplague Caverns (Master) for Module 12B. These are changes that we've been looking into making based on feedback, and now that you may randomly end up in Spellplague as part of Random: Epic Dungeon, we want to make sure you don't feel like you landed a dud.
Here are the pertinent patch notes that you should be seeing on preview in the not too distant future:
Those rewards are utter poopie For the amount of time you spend in a dungeon..... Elven is equal to 4.5k salvage? for upto an hours work?
I haven't even done spell plague yet simply because Everytime i've heard of it, my guildies have spent 1-2 hours in there. and have only ever gotten a rank 5 enchantment.
This isn't about the total AD in game. In fact, my guess is 90% of the accounts in game that have AD are no longer played.
And the fact that the AD sinks are either a 1 time thing. a complete dud or, Eventually people run out of Superior marks to buy.
As this is a Dungeons and Dragons based game, I disagree, though I respect your opinion and your choices. If you and I and a few other friends were getting together once or twice a week to play PnP and all you ever wanted to do was the easiest content, over and over again, you wouldn't be invited back. DnD is the soul of this game, and I hope the players and the developers never forget that.
> @asterdahl
> I want to first thank you for taking the time to write the detailed explanations and to answer a lot of people questions about the random queues and AD gain.
>
> Also.... WOW!!!! on the account wide dungeon unlocks... that is amazing news.
>
> As for the improved rewards for FBI and mSP... OK... that's at least a step in the right direction since that has been a super big complaint since it was released.
>
> You have answered, or at least tried to explain a lot of point with the random queue system. And well.. I have the say that the system isn't perfect, and you are right there are going to be growing pains with it. But, it is slightly better than it was.
>
> But, I still want one question answered or explained....
>
> If... and this was one of your point in the original post, you (Cryptic as a whole) are look to increase variety with end game content.... then why.... WHY!!!! have the old dungeons not made a return yet??????
>
> Epic Dread Vault... Epic Throne of Idris... Epic Lair of the Mad Dragon... and epic versions of Cloak Tower, Frozen Heart, Caverns of Karundux.
>
>
> I mean... there are players that have never experienced those dungeons... you want to give us variety... give us MORE choices
And not gated behind a campaign... bring back 2-3 at a time, or more... all leveling dungeons should have an epic version...that way the transition for new players is familiar, but stronger... harder to complete. On xbox we still have many achievements left incomplete because they were available premod6 and no longer are. This infuriates console players when they cant be completed. At some point you need to take a "b mod" and correct leftovers from past modules that are no longer relevant. Some just need removed and some need to be unlocked and returned to us. The dungeons have been promised from the day they were removed.
[The Legendary Outlaws] (Guildhall 20)
Sure, not having to do SKT to unlock ANYTHING is good, cos it means that just like I never intended to... I won't be playing SKT on any of my alts.
The problem remains... the disparity between CN and the 11k dungeons, and the vast swathe of SUB 11K players who could be given the keys to the city by way of unlocks who still won't be able to queue for level appropriate dungeons under the random queue system. People for whom this account wide unlock on all 11k+ alts does the square root of sod all. Those insignificant duds who don't even have a main past 10k.
The only people who benefit from this are those with a stable of 11k alts... so on behalf of all those players yet to hit the dizzy heights and unlock that pile of donkey stools on ONE character let me say,
"Great way to look out for the little guys"
But what hell... acct wide unlock lets you coral even more people into Project "Please get people playing these end game dungeons". And I hate to sound like a broken record, but... that's what this is all about. Otherwise all these work arounds would be utterly unnecessary and you'd do the one thing môst people seem to agree would work best, and move FBI and MSP into the Hero's Accord category and be done with it...
But oh... I forgot... "seals of the brave" or something... that's the fundamental road block to common sense restructuring of this mess.
Yeah...
@asterdahl
Let us revisit your goals.
Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity.
First, this RQ approach will not happen the way as you wish. You make people to do unpopular tasks which cannot be a popular decision.
If you want people to do unpopular thing, increase reward to it to make it popular. Give something extra for the unpopular dungeon which based on number of visit of the community. Re-adjust the reward based on the (say) monthly popularity.
Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety.
This random queue approach makes people burn out more than ever. You are increasing burn out.
If choosing the dungeon making people burn out, I fail to see how "could not choose the dungeon" is improving anything.
Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals.
This is not a feature of a random queue. You can do that without random queue.
Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content.
This is also not a feature of a random queue. The game has something similar already except it does not give AD.
You don't need random queue to implement that. Say, get a quest from Knox. After you finish all N dungeons in the list,
go back to Knox to get extra AD. That can be a weekly task.
Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times.
Again, you don't need random queue to implement this. In addition, RQ is helping this.
Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment.
Again, you don't need random queue to implement this. In addition, RQ is helping this.
In short, you can fulfill most of your goals without implementing something everybody hate.
I personally don't really care much because:
1. I probably will not do random queue. I am not actively pursue AD through dungeon/skirmish currently and certainly will not do so.
2. Even if I do random queue, it will not be the way that will fulfill your goal. That is not my intention to counter your gaols but unintentionally, I believe that would be the case.
You cherry picked the guy that was asking for separate RQs for each tier, ignoring all the rest of us that are asking you to simply move MSP and FBI into Hero's Accord where they clearly belong...
WHY?!
Honestly, man... Did you really read through all these posts and come to the conclusion that all we needed to buy into RQs was a free FBI pass for our alts?
Can you please at least confirm that you have read and understand that many people have stated they do not believe FBI and MSP belong in epic RQ because they require Campaign Unlocks, special gear, and a degree of skill and teamwork orders of magnitude above what is needed to successfully pug T1s and T2s?
Do I need to make that Blue? Is that the problem?
Right now I would burn through an eToS and an eLoL or CN quickly, then call it a night. Now I have to take the chance at a 2+hour catastrophe in FBI or MSPC to get that AD.
Last night I ran 1 FBI, 2 CN and 2 eToS. If I hadn't gotten the free rad I wouldn't have gotten my RAD cap. You know why? Because in all of those I didn't get a single boss drop other than a bound mount insignia off of Drufi. You know what the chests had? I ended up with 2 salvagable rings and a sword transmute. So in 36 bosses - no drops other than something to throw in the mimic. In 6 chests opened (because F making extra keys for your junk) I got less than the cap for one character in salvage. AND THAT'S A NORMAL NIGHT FOR ME.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Instead, if all you want is AD, you should run a random LEVELLING dungeon, which will not challenge you at all, will bore you, that your *companion* could solo without you, where your presence will ruin the experience for any non-L70 in your group, and which will grant you more than 10K AD with VIP and prayer bonus. Because for some reason Cryptic wants level 70s to spend their time in unchallenging content and has moved the rewards so that content that isn't challenging or fun has much greater rewards than level-appropriate content.
After you've gotten your 10K AD for levelling boredom, then you can private queue for ETOS or CN or whatever in search of salvage. Or go Random and hope for that 7/9 easy 5K more, or that you get an FBI party that can run it.
(Also, if you hit FBI or MSP, you can ask your party to kick you, refuse to participate until they kick you, or just leave. Only leaving carries a penalty, and you can swap characters or just do something else for 30 minutes before queueing up for another 7/9 chance of getting a puggable dungeon)
At least FBI will have more salvagable loot in the future?
And then what does it matter to you how long it's taking them to get a set of primal armor? If they have 3 characters strong enough to complete ToNG they definitely deserve to get three times the seals.
On a side note, no I wont stop unlocking dungeons with my main, and switch to DC or GF, bc the CW is my main since beta and the rest comes second, including all the ppl who run DDs as a main for a year and complain about the other players doing the same.
Hopefully the question about SKT account wide dungeon unlock being for that campaign only or not will be answered. A number of players feel that post Mods having account wide dungeon unlocks is pretty much fine while a current Mod isn't.
Some players actually tend to their other character(s) well enough for them to be able to run current Mod content and a number of them feel that account wide dungeon unlocks for a current Mod weakens their efforts and allows other players to just "skim" in and reap the benefits of current Mod content on multiple characters essentially by simply unlocking it on one character.
@preechr Do players running the same content over and over affect you? Players choosing not to get all campaign boons ARE affecting others though.
Neverwinter is DnD based, it's not full on DnD which allows different player types to get their "fill" however they see fit (within the rules).
PnP is a totally different subject.
Players know/will quickly learn that the "experience" of a session is what players often are seeking, though personally, if someone wanted to "play easy" PnP on this end they would be accommodated, possibly not even have to be present (could text or discord chat with them), how simple would it be to DM such a player? Would even try to coax them into being more involved though they wouldn't simply be excluded due to their preference of play.
@artifleur, @asterotg Private queues allow for 10k ilvl carries so again, with an account wide dungeon unlock for the current Mod players can just "skim" to the top tier equipment simply by unlocking it on one character and having at least10k ilvl on other characters they would like to have carried as well, essentially bypassing a considerable amount of effort. There's a considerable difference between 11k and 10k ilvl.
Yet some players here are complaining about the time it takes to progress campaigns on multiple characters though at the same time want to be able to be carried in higher level content on multiple characters via account wide dungeon unlocks essentially skipping the progression progress on those characters AND getting top tier equipment, in other words, have their, cake, pie ice cream and eat it too LoL.
Running ETOS for AD is "fun" though the RQ system providing the chance other content is chosen isn't "fun"?
The RQ system arguably will respect the play time of players. After RQ'ing a normal dungeon and skirmish a number of players players will be done with it for the day and be free to do other things (unless they run ETOS to "top off") rather than running 2 of each in the past.
The RQ system won't always pick the longer content, a 5 min run and a 10 min run is still less time than running 4, 5 minute runs, it's a difference of 5 mins though it adds up over time. There are about 9 "shorter" epic dungeons and 3 "longer" ones, fairly good odds, if players RQ and get something they don't like (find not "fun" simply because it takes longer) they can leave and take a "30 minute break"...
Over the past few days in discussions a number of players stated that they disagree with Mod 12b changes because of the increased effort laid before them. When the dreaded dungeon key change was on the books a number of players here opposed it heavily and claimed it would break the game yet here they are still opposing the RQ system...
Changes are proposed, players weigh in (some even form elaborate scenarios of how detrimental they will be), changes come, players adapt or not. The proposed changes are presented to tackle a number of issues, breaking down the changes into individual player "hardships" takes it out of context of the larger scope. Collectively the changes can support the desires of the staff, tearing it all apart apart essentially harms this.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Will I be penalized for removing my gear before queuing to keep a toon from going into a certain dungeon?
Example, I have a CW and HR that I have not played and would not at all be comfortable taking them through an end game dungeon despite them being geared to enter. Am I going to be considered an exploiter if I lower the IL of those toons to less than 11k for queuing?
Why does this question keep coming up? Why don't people read the OP?
Getting to 12k is not hard, especially now we can get +4 Ostorian rings for 300 protector seals, The Mysterious Merchant does decent gear for guild marks, RD weapons are farmable by anyone over 10k and r8 normal enchantments are around 30k each (or if you're really broke, r7's for 3k...).
5 blue mounts with blue insignias (60k), 5 blue companions (50k) - r8 bondings currently going for less than 20k each! And item level boosted by boon completion.
Even with no guild boons, a player should be able to reach 11k and not have to spend more than 500k AD. Scraping a mere 15k per day, that is less than 5 weeks of effort. The rest can be Underdark armor & Drowned weapons or even save up a bit more AD and buy blue gear for diamonds in Chult.
But I do actually agree that FBI and MSP should be in the Hero's Accord category...
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
You go where you are sent as determined by the length of time someone has been waiting.
Since none of the sub 11K dudes will be able to queue for FBI and MSPC the pre 11k queues will fill up quicker with people queuing the old fashioned way, sorry but that's just common sense. The queues that will remain open the longest and therefore need your 11k character with Unlocks on FBI and MSP will be... FBI and MSP.
Random has nothing to do with where you go in this system unless you are a pre-made group of 11k+ well tooled heroes. Only THEY have earned the right to TRULY randomly land in Malabogs Castle...
Already there are people leaving because of this change is going be pushed through. Let us have freedom to gain AD in different ways.
Forcing random stuff on us just makes us leave.