Are you people out of your freaking minds? Do you actually think it's wise to lock the epic dungeon random queue behind over at least almost two months of grinding RD daylies and weeklys to unlock mspc, to then unlock the epic dungeons queue? I get it, overall you are increasing the amount of AD we can get daily (but at the same time you are going to disproportionately increase the amount of time consumed to do so, by the way), but what about the new players? And on top of the stupidly long grind, you also need 11k to join, which will be harder to achieve since the amount of AD a new player can earn will be lowered.
Post edited by havocenes#3195 on
3
santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
edited September 2017
None of this is about the poor, new players. This is all about enhancing revenue streams. New players aren't trying to earn R13 and R14 enchants, for example.
Imo epic dungeons with level 72 or lower enemies, and thouse with level 73 enemies should be in different random queues, because they´re different leagues in difficulty, and require different amounts of resistance ignored to deal full damage. Also, iirc, only thouse with level 73 enemies are locked behind campaigns...too many campaigns, and unlocked too late in the campaign more often than not btw.
Outside of Mod 12b Bonus RAD is granted at the end of particular queues on top of the base RAD awarded which is around 1400 or so (could be wrong, simply subtracted 50% from the amount rewarded after 1 run from a screenshot someone sent). One thing that was brought up during talks w/other players was w/the Random Queue system would base RAD be granted per run w/the bonus RAD simply being granted in addition if the random queue system is used? If so how much base RAD would be granted per manual run/queue type?
For example if one skirmish pre-Mod 12b grants around 1400 base RAD (which it does at least for the first 2 runs of a day then it drops to around 150 or so) would 3 manual runs grant:
- 4.2k RAD? (1400x3 which is about 200 less than what one skirmish grants pre-Mod 12b) - around 2950 RAD since it is 3 runs (1400x2 + 150)? - around 450 RAD (150x3)? - some other amount?
Those not interested in RQ's could still manually run EToS (SoT, etc.) & around as much RAD if not more than the RQ system is stated to grant.
Something like this was bound to happen, pretty much whenever players focus on a few particular areas of the game because of the effort/time to yield ratio being higher than doing other things changes will be on the horizon, especially when players that AFK farm/bot (PC) utilize them.
It happened before when Leadership/Invoking granted RAD, a number of players got multiple character slots JUST to easily farm RAD via little effort. As if those two systems alone weren't golden, players could use the online Gateway from just about anywhere to do all sorts of things on their account w/o logging in to the game. As if all that wasn't good enough many "players" resorted to botting the actions & when those things were taken away due to abuse legitimate players took a hit, had they not been abused those systems would probably still be available today. Applying abuse to pre-Mod 12b, quick & easy content for bonus RAD w/few requirements made it highly appealing in general though also to AFK farmers as well as bots being adapted to navigate that content.
Pre-Mod 12b around 25k RAD can be gained within about 20 minutes just from specifically queuing easy content & often enough not really having to participate, staff knows this, they see it., they know what content is "preferred". 25k may not seem like a lot though when you have a considerable amount of players/bots doing so it adds up & something seemingly had to be done to help protect the in-game economy & the game overall.
Let's look at this mathematically, pre-Mod 12b an account w/4 characters can gain 100k AD in around 1.5 hours > 10 days > 1kk (million) AD (15 hours), double that & it's 20 days > 2kk AD (30 hours), if the AD exchange is 400 & w/a 15% off coupon that account can get 6 months of VIP, that's about 180 lockbox keys which is enough to fund at least half of another 6 month VIP, 10 more days of easy content & another 6 months of VIP, or, that AD can be sold via third-party websites, etc... The point here is the investment is low & the potential yield is very high w/the pre-Mod 12b system especially for AFK farmers, bots & abusers.
A number of players run RAD mules (characters that are "predominantly" used for the daily RAD's from queues w/little to no focus on campaign progression) and under progressed characters in higher content & often enough, at the expense of other players simply because they REFUSE to progress them through campaigns which will grant them more viability (damage, healing, etc.). It's not fair for players to have to carry the mules of other players in queues simply because those players want quick & easy RAD, especially when they don't even try to contribute. Just think about all those weeks/months/years some players spent overlooking progressing their other/additional characters & each character could have progressed accordingly simply via completing weekly & a few daily quests here & there & possibly been ready to utilize the RQ system when it arrives...
Post-Mod 12 gear is purchasable w/AD (420 ilvl, same as Dragonflight & DF equipment is even easier to obtain, also mysterious merchant items are an option for fresh lvl 70 charcaters.
Someone here stated queues are a console problem, if that's the case botting (automated play) is a PC problem yet changes that effect bots on PC (like refinement from enchantments being changed from unbound to BtA) are also made on console where bots really don't exist.... AFK farming (which is what console definitely has) is also considered botting though on console the botting tools/options that PC has are not available yet console players still get the same changes... Mod 12b "just so happening" to be less "bot friendly" is a good thing though keep in mind console players eventually get the same "anti-bot" changes whether or not the target/problem exists on console & even if the changes produce "hardships" for players overall on console due to what players on PC abuse...
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I know of no bots hanging around in regular epic runs.. they may do that in regular 3 man runs.. since you need no gear.. or anything really to run them..
I fail to see where botting comes into a major factor.
This doesnt just hurt people like me (multi alt farmers) it hurts everyone.. everything will take more time, this is simply a funnel into trying to force more people into the cash shop, that is all it really is.
Im ok with giving the company money.. in fact have done so since the start.. but I pay for things that usually are perceived values (vip, dragonborn pack, sw pack, certain comps/mounts) ect..
I will not pay for direct zen just to transfer over to pay for upgrades, because they axed 30-40% of the AD making in the game, while also forcing people to play what they choose for us, while at the same time, dictating we have to open certain content, just to run anything for the AD.
Blathers on them.. I really dont even care if they reverse course on this and bondings.. im simply done, that they came up with this, means they will sneak in more soon.
None of this is about the poor, new players. This is all about enhancing revenue streams. New players aren't trying to earn R13 and R14 enchants, for example.
I'm not sure that it is. I've gone through it from pretty much every angle, and the only thing I can conclude is that this new system is designed to get more numbers on the FBI and MSPC player stats.
I'm not sure what the motivation is, it might be as simple as someone in the design team wanting to see their material being more used, or something as serious as a risk to future funding on new content development if recent content is continually being ignored.
But I'm sure that driving player activity into those two dungeons is at the heart of the decisions to make these changes.
If it were truly about getting queues to pop faster, they would allow the thousands of characters below 11k to join the HAMSTER queues. That's just common sense. The only queues that will pop noticeably faster under the Epic queue structure are FBI and MSP.
Unless of course the real issue is still just down to the lack of support classes in the sub 11k class. Therefore dumping that group out of random queues will speed things up simply by virtue of the overwhelmingly larger set of <11k DPS being forbidden from joining randoms. And they think that by forcing players into full campaign completion to access the queue will somehow increase the number of DCs. In which case I have no idea how logic plays any part in the decision making process.
Sort of like if a company employed 100 people, and every month 50 would get their paycheck a day late. The company makes an announcement stating that under a new system, they will guarantee that no more than 10 employees will ever be paid late again. Everyone gets excited, till they start to realise that the system is, "we fire 90 people". Ok they might well see the collapse of their company and imminent bankruptcy due to not having enough staff to actually function as a business... but god damn if they didn't solve that one problem.
at this point i just hope they announce a Neverwinter 2 is in works because the just did killed my will to play... Hope im wrong but i don't see light on this tunnel
think i will only come back to play for a test when this goes live to see what happens...
Bug: @asterdahl if a player dies in FBI during the first boss fight and releases, then if the team beats the boss they are unable to rejoin their party due to the invisible wall that was added to prevent a certain exploit which doesn't disappear when the boss dies. This is a major issue with the implementation of the queue penalty and currently on live it is a pain for anyone who random queues fbi.
Thank you! I have pointed this out multiple times in this thread and been ignored every time. Maybe they will listen to you about it.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
They said something about having 5 minutes now instead of 85 seconds before it counts you as leaving (and get auto-replaced). You will be able to rejoin at any point during those 5 minutes. Not sure what it counts if you get vote-kicked before the 5 minutes are up.
I dont know, if anyone of the Devs ever did run MSP or FBI. IMO they read about BIS players doing solo or duo runs for fun and PuGs failing miserably. In their endless wisdom they decided, to 'urge' BIS players, to run PuG, so all would be dandy. Dungeons would be viable for the PuG crowd and challenging for BIS players carrying PuGs.
The thing is, that FBI and MSP are a waste of time, for all players, BIS and PuG. The time/loot ratio is so bad, that every other T2 dungeon gives you more RAD/h, then those.
Look at your preview forum and the comments ppl posted. For every dungeon players said 'make it worth my time'. Every time a Dev said 'sure, no problem'. Every time the loot sucks. The only reason to run To9G are the seals and I cant even be bothered, to farm them.
If a system does not work as intended, it could either be the problem of the designers or a problem on the customer side. Thing is, this is a GAME. This should be FUN. I dont want/need a DEV to tell me 'que random, if you want to earn RAD'. Rewarding a certain type pf game play is one thing. Removing the same reward from other types of playing does not make me want to run random ques, but does make me want to quit.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
4
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,456Arc User
edited September 2017
This comes down to this:
1. Don't run random epic dungeon queue. Forget about it. 2. Don't run PUG. Set up your private team. 3. If you want AD, spend 14 minutes or less on 3 member random level dungeon queue. Set up your own private team. All member needs to aware they will do door to door, no pick up, rush to the end for the sole purpose of AD. Certain channel can be set up for recruiting with this guide line and the channel member needs to acknowledge that. 4. After that, do whatever you want. Pick your own dungeon, etc and do what you usually do. Forget about random dungeon for that day.
You may consider that 14 minutes(*) is waste of time and no fun. However, comparing with spending time and fail in FBI, leaver penalty, etc, this is a much better alternative.
I said 14 minutes because I actually use my alts to do solo in all the level dungeons this weekend. That is the time I needed to do that and that also included picking stuff on the ground. Since I was not familiar with those dungeons and I did pick up stuff, reshuffle storage, in practice, an experience 3 member team should do a lot quicker than that. Probably, 10 minutes.
Yes, I used a stop watch.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
There will always be players that rage and whine when balancing happens, but the majority of people will gladly accept and adopt changes or policies that are honestly explained, even if the answer is that there is no answer for legal reasons or that you guys just don't know or care about it
Are there any specific questions you'd like answered in regards to this feature? I have tried to be clear about the goals of the random queue feature as well as why we have made certain adjustments or why we won't be making certain adjustments.
In some cases, there are those who will feel like an answer is unsatisfactory, or simply disagree with the premise, and simply ask a question again that has already been answered. Generally we try not to get too bogged down answering the same questions too many times, so keep that in mind.
I get that each of you would rather restrict the questions you answer to the topic of the discussion you have been tasked with hosting, but at some point someone needs to be answering those questions that fall between the cracks rather than just serially ignoring them. This is even more apparent in the AMA type events, where it seems the easiest questions to answer are cherry-picked.
As someone has already requested, this would probably all be a lot less confusing for those that aren't willing to read every page to reconstruct the discussion if you would kindly update the original posts to accurately reflect the current state of this proposal, including FAQ for the questions you see repeating.
As you read through the tangential, off-topic posts, rather than ignoring them, put them in your backlog bucket and try to get an answer to a few bucket questions a week, maybe. Let people know their question matters, and then tell them where they might find the answer.... some other central FAQ depot, not just a post that gets lost over time.
Start with "Are you guys ever going to bring the old dungeons back?" and "Please fix the loot tables instead of this." You may think these are not on-topic, but it seems plenty of people posting on this feedback thread and most of the others would disagree. Addressing these things separately will help keep feedback threads on-topic... and help keep them from becoming 60 pages long. I'm sure veteran forum users like Becky would help, if you would just provide and organized way to handle already addressed questions (note the several times in this thread she and a couple others already have.)
Ignoring questions or requests from your users will only ever make them angry.
Finding a way to answer every question you can will surely take some work on the front end, but NOT doing that will only lead to a lot more ongoing work to replace users, which will just go on and on and you finally do that first part.
Several people have quoted you asking me for specific questions. I see what you guys are trying to do and I'm just making suggestions that I think might be helpful, so no, I don't have any specific questions I'd like answered in regards to this feature. I've said what I needed to say about it, and I'll wait to see its final form, hoping that you guys will listen to us and subdivide MSP, FBI and MSVA.
0
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,456Arc User
I was the one who asked for updating the first page. However, I did not follow the instruction (stated in page 1) to put my 2 cents using cyan colour. My bad. That may be the reason dev did not "see" that. IMO, it is very important that the first page to be updated. I was kind of arguing with guildie in the weekend about this topic. However, people had the knowledge about the first page and knew nothing about the amendment you did in page 13.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Even doing CN without enough dps is not fun. The major challenge for the tank is merely not succumbing to fatigue while the party takes ten minutes to kill each boss, or fifteen to twenty minutes to kill Orcus. Even when your party members are well above the laughable 8400 IL minimum requirement. I would rather take a leaver penalty and do something else than go through that with my GF multiple times.
@trinity706 - There's a much easier way to fix the botting issue in leveling dungeons. Simply remove the ability of higher levels to do them. A minimum and maximum level requirement, as it was pre-mod 6. Then make it easy for people running the leveling dungeons to kick botters. Also, make non-epic level 70 3-man dungeons of each of the leveling dungeons that do not yet have an epic version.
Random Queues could be a great idea if there was a fun reason for dungeons and skirmishes to be random. If skirmishes and dungeons had opportunities to use class specific non-combat and utility skills, abilities, or spells/prayers in order to make the completion faster and easier. Or to be able to explore a different area to which the party wouldn't otherwise have access. There are many possibilities, and it would actually create the opportunity to introduce a lot of encounters and situations into the game you find in paper&pencil D&D.
1) Encouraging high-level players to run low-level dungeons for AD: This is not interesting content for max-level characters, and our presence makes the content not interesting content for low level players as well. If the "level-scaling" mechanisms are very drastically changed, this may change, but with the current level-scaling, this makes an existing problem (high level players in low level dungeons) worse. As such, I'd prefer to see this random queue not provide a reward at all for max level characters, and have that rAD split between the other queues. If level scaling changes arrive, that can be revisited, but as-is, this feels 100% backwards. You are rewarding high level players for destroying low level character's enjoyment of dungeons.
2) Putting FBI and MSP in the same queue as Malabog's Castle: FBI and MSP are not fast or easy enough to ever be a desirable destination solely for AD. Randomly ending up in them while queuing with a group that cannot handle them is going to occur probably more often than randomly ending up in them while queuing with a group that can handle them. In addition, these two dungeons inflate the item level and campaign requirements of using the random queue significantly. Both FBI and MSP are month-long campaign unlocks, and both are from campaigns that new characters cannot safely complete when they first reach level 70. This means that for new players, the random queue changes will reduce their daily income of bonus rAD from dungeons significantly until they have completed RD and the bulk of SKT. I'd also like to add to that that any time spent queuing is time spent not doing campaign dailies. These players have less free game time available to spend grinding AD than a player who is done with daily quests does.
I don't think players would object nearly as heavily if FBI and MSP were moved to the Hero's Accord queue along with ToNG. They're still considered endgame content by nearly all players. I understand you thought about this but weren't sure what to do with Seals of the Brave. I'm not that worried about that tbh.
Another option would be tiering epic dungeon queues by "tiers", with MC/VT/ELOL being T1, ECC/ETOS/EGWD being T2, and FBI/MSP being T3.
If you tiered those queues, but those three tiers shared a once-daily reward (first run of any of the three gave the reward), I would be very happy with these changes instead of very unhappy with these changes.
@nirafelos - That seems to be a common sense solution which several people, including myself, have put forward.
Here's something that recently occurred to me. The people that can afford to pay to play this game already pay. The people that can't afford to pay, don't pay. Very little, if anything, can be done to change that. Making the game more fun and more interesting is a much better strategy to maintain or increase revenue. If Neverwinter becomes more fun, then it will attract more new players who read good reviews about it, keep more current players, and perhaps even encourage former players to return.
@safespacecadet unfortunately bots don't just exist in leveling dungeons and also more often than not new players don't even know about "vote-to-kick", etc. AFK farmers will still do the same things, sit by the campfire, move slowly, contribute very little, etc. Bots and abusers help bring changes like the RQ system to the table.
A minimum and maximum level won't make queues pop faster as intended and also will restrict higher level character's bonus RAD gaining choices, they will for the most part have to RQ epic and up content which a number do not want to because they want quick and easy RAD which seemingly is part of the reason the RQ system was formed (to help prevent players from manually selecting the easiest content for bonus RAD upon completion). Pretty certain CT, MotH, DL, EToS and SoT are the most manually queued for content (for obvious reasons) and the time for easily abusing it has come to an end.
Level 70 3-man versions will not help queues pop faster (queues popping faster is one of the goals of the RQ system), higher and lower level players in the same queue pool will. Opening more avenues to bot and abuse won't help solve the problem.
Illusionist's Gambit is random...yet a number of players still take the low road with "bronze" farms (remember reading somewhere about bronze rewards being changed). Even if more content was designed with randomness and alternative tactics as the basis and even with all the various ways players can earn actual AD which isn't capped like refining RAD a large number of players will still opt for the "easiest" options, that's just what players tend to do. Not stating that content with those things as a basis couldn't be a positive thing though often sooner rather than later the excitement goes away and those that were once interested will resort to the same type of tactics as before.
"Separate tiers" for the most part won't necessarily help produce the results the staff is seeking, it will just provide players with more bonus RAD for running content they don't want to which is what the RQ system will pretty much do anyway seeing as a large number of players prefer to only run at most about 5 specific queues. The staff can see why players are suggesting/want tiered dungeons in the RQ system, they want more bonus RAD in less time from easy content (T1 and T2) while skipping the harder content (T3) which is what they do pre-Mod 12b anyway LOL.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
The two main problems are that the time-to-complete and risk-of-failure vary wide across the epic dungeons. At one end, only a party of tools can fail eToS. At the other end, you can have a well-geared party walk away with nothing after spending two hours in FBI/mSP.
How about scaling the RAD reward and giving them out piecemeal. eToS/eGWD/eCC, which can be done in 15-20 minutes, gives the reward at after the final boss.
CN, which probably takes 30-45 minutes, gives the reward after the second and last boss. You would end up with double the RAD for doing CN over eToS/eGWD/eCC.
FBI/mSP, which can easily take a PUG group almost an hour, gives the reward after every boss. You would be done for the day if you manage to finish the run. If not, then you probably gotten some RAD already and can do one more easy run for the rest of the RAD.
You can guarantee a T2 salvage drop instead if it makes it easier, but the loot table should slant more towards large armor because getting rings too often will HAMSTER people off also.
You probably want to give the extra bonus only for pure, or mostly, PUG groups to encourage BiS people to carry.
Bug: @asterdahl if a player dies in FBI during the first boss fight and releases, then if the team beats the boss they are unable to rejoin their party due to the invisible wall that was added to prevent a certain exploit which doesn't disappear when the boss dies. This is a major issue with the implementation of the queue penalty and currently on live it is a pain for anyone who random queues fbi.
This bug still being present really is a disgrace...
If your team has time for a big project like the "Random queues" but still leave such a game-breaking bug for so long, then you really need to get your priorities straight...
Over 20 pages long of people not wanting/liking this.. When will they see what a poor implementation of a bad idea (although with good intentions) this really is?
> @subsidal said: > Over 20 pages long of people not wanting/liking this.. When will they see what a poor implementation of a bad idea (although with good intentions) this really is?
They won't. What you have to figure out is, it doesn't matter how we wish the game to be or become. The only thing that matters is how the Devs see the game and their viewpoint of where they want it to go.
Hence the devs comment about wanting to re-implement the leaver penalty. The players don't want it, but it is in the devs vision, so it goes into the game. Doesn't matter if they upset the player base.
I truly believe the dev's thought process is: if you don't like the changes, too bad go find another game. I have a vision of how this game will play and that is how things will be.
The staff can see why players are suggesting/want tiered dungeons in the RQ system, they want more bonus RAD in less time from easy content (T1 and T2) while skipping the harder content (T3) which is what they do pre-Mod 12b anyway LOL.
There are many times when I would run RQ T3 with a stacked party, while that same party would be entirely wasted on Malabogs, which I can solo in no more time than it takes to pug and complete it.
My single largest complaint with this implementation is that it leaves new 70 tools in the dust AD wise until they are 11k and have completed RD and unlocked FBI, which is a minimum of a month, but probably longer now that their AD gain is going to take more time to grind at the expense of daily quests.
If it doesn't count as quitting, then this will be how people will skirt around the leaver penalty.
I'm not talking about people turn off their pc/console, I'm talking about when the server glitches and dumps people during the loading screen.
If the server is still working, it will see the client disconnected for some reason. It can't tell if the client crash, or there was a network flap, or the player intentionally closed the game.
If I were the devs, I would count disconnects as a quit as that is the more likely reason for the disconnect. People shouldn't be having bad client crashing problems. If they do, they should be more concerned about the possibility of losing a successful run and having all that time wasted. If you get hit with a leaver penalty, it just stops you from playing. You haven't wasted any time at that point.
If I were the devs, I would count disconnects as a quit as that is the more likely reason for the disconnect. People shouldn't be having bad client crashing problems. If they do, they should be more concerned about the possibility of losing a successful run and having all that time wasted. If you get hit with a leaver penalty, it just stops you from playing. You haven't wasted any time at that point.
People crash out all the time in this game, on all 3 platforms - and sometimes we have weeks of everyone crashing due to badly implemented updates. Giving players 5 minutes to reconnect is not unreasonable, especially considering that they can be votekicked in the meantime if the team are of that mind.
This game has a long history of network issues and these forums are filled with examples of people complaining about them.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Comments
For example if one skirmish pre-Mod 12b grants around 1400 base RAD (which it does at least for the first 2 runs of a day then it drops to around 150 or so) would 3 manual runs grant:
- 4.2k RAD? (1400x3 which is about 200 less than what one skirmish grants pre-Mod 12b)
- around 2950 RAD since it is 3 runs (1400x2 + 150)?
- around 450 RAD (150x3)?
- some other amount?
Those not interested in RQ's could still manually run EToS (SoT, etc.) & around as much RAD if not more than the RQ system is stated to grant.
Something like this was bound to happen, pretty much whenever players focus on a few particular areas of the game because of the effort/time to yield ratio being higher than doing other things changes will be on the horizon, especially when players that AFK farm/bot (PC) utilize them.
It happened before when Leadership/Invoking granted RAD, a number of players got multiple character slots JUST to easily farm RAD via little effort. As if those two systems alone weren't golden, players could use the online Gateway from just about anywhere to do all sorts of things on their account w/o logging in to the game. As if all that wasn't good enough many "players" resorted to botting the actions & when those things were taken away due to abuse legitimate players took a hit, had they not been abused those systems would probably still be available today. Applying abuse to pre-Mod 12b, quick & easy content for bonus RAD w/few requirements made it highly appealing in general though also to AFK farmers as well as bots being adapted to navigate that content.
Pre-Mod 12b around 25k RAD can be gained within about 20 minutes just from specifically queuing easy content & often enough not really having to participate, staff knows this, they see it., they know what content is "preferred". 25k may not seem like a lot though when you have a considerable amount of players/bots doing so it adds up & something seemingly had to be done to help protect the in-game economy & the game overall.
Let's look at this mathematically, pre-Mod 12b an account w/4 characters can gain 100k AD in around 1.5 hours > 10 days > 1kk (million) AD (15 hours), double that & it's 20 days > 2kk AD (30 hours), if the AD exchange is 400 & w/a 15% off coupon that account can get 6 months of VIP, that's about 180 lockbox keys which is enough to fund at least half of another 6 month VIP, 10 more days of easy content & another 6 months of VIP, or, that AD can be sold via third-party websites, etc... The point here is the investment is low & the potential yield is very high w/the pre-Mod 12b system especially for AFK farmers, bots & abusers.
A number of players run RAD mules (characters that are "predominantly" used for the daily RAD's from queues w/little to no focus on campaign progression) and under progressed characters in higher content & often enough, at the expense of other players simply because they REFUSE to progress them through campaigns which will grant them more viability (damage, healing, etc.). It's not fair for players to have to carry the mules of other players in queues simply because those players want quick & easy RAD, especially when they don't even try to contribute. Just think about all those weeks/months/years some players spent overlooking progressing their other/additional characters & each character could have progressed accordingly simply via completing weekly & a few daily quests here & there & possibly been ready to utilize the RQ system when it arrives...
Post-Mod 12 gear is purchasable w/AD (420 ilvl, same as Dragonflight & DF equipment is even easier to obtain, also mysterious merchant items are an option for fresh lvl 70 charcaters.
Someone here stated queues are a console problem, if that's the case botting (automated play) is a PC problem yet changes that effect bots on PC (like refinement from enchantments being changed from unbound to BtA) are also made on console where bots really don't exist.... AFK farming (which is what console definitely has) is also considered botting though on console the botting tools/options that PC has are not available yet console players still get the same changes... Mod 12b "just so happening" to be less "bot friendly" is a good thing though keep in mind console players eventually get the same "anti-bot" changes whether or not the target/problem exists on console & even if the changes produce "hardships" for players overall on console due to what players on PC abuse...
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
I fail to see where botting comes into a major factor.
This doesnt just hurt people like me (multi alt farmers) it hurts everyone.. everything will take more time, this is simply a funnel into trying to force more people into the cash shop, that is all it really is.
Im ok with giving the company money.. in fact have done so since the start.. but I pay for things that usually are perceived values (vip, dragonborn pack, sw pack, certain comps/mounts) ect..
I will not pay for direct zen just to transfer over to pay for upgrades, because they axed 30-40% of the AD making in the game, while also forcing people to play what they choose for us, while at the same time, dictating we have to open certain content, just to run anything for the AD.
Blathers on them.. I really dont even care if they reverse course on this and bondings.. im simply done, that they came up with this, means they will sneak in more soon.
Its just whatever.. at this point.
I've gone through it from pretty much every angle, and the only thing I can conclude is that this new system is designed to get more numbers on the FBI and MSPC player stats.
I'm not sure what the motivation is, it might be as simple as someone in the design team wanting to see their material being more used, or something as serious as a risk to future funding on new content development if recent content is continually being ignored.
But I'm sure that driving player activity into those two dungeons is at the heart of the decisions to make these changes.
If it were truly about getting queues to pop faster, they would allow the thousands of characters below 11k to join the HAMSTER queues. That's just common sense.
The only queues that will pop noticeably faster under the Epic queue structure are FBI and MSP.
Unless of course the real issue is still just down to the lack of support classes in the sub 11k class. Therefore dumping that group out of random queues will speed things up simply by virtue of the overwhelmingly larger set of <11k DPS being forbidden from joining randoms. And they think that by forcing players into full campaign completion to access the queue will somehow increase the number of DCs. In which case I have no idea how logic plays any part in the decision making process.
Sort of like if a company employed 100 people, and every month 50 would get their paycheck a day late. The company makes an announcement stating that under a new system, they will guarantee that no more than 10 employees will ever be paid late again. Everyone gets excited, till they start to realise that the system is, "we fire 90 people".
Ok they might well see the collapse of their company and imminent bankruptcy due to not having enough staff to actually function as a business... but god damn if they didn't solve that one problem.
Hope im wrong but i don't see light on this tunnel
think i will only come back to play for a test when this goes live to see what happens...
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
The thing is, that FBI and MSP are a waste of time, for all players, BIS and PuG. The time/loot ratio is so bad, that every other T2 dungeon gives you more RAD/h, then those.
Look at your preview forum and the comments ppl posted. For every dungeon players said 'make it worth my time'. Every time a Dev said 'sure, no problem'. Every time the loot sucks. The only reason to run To9G are the seals and I cant even be bothered, to farm them.
If a system does not work as intended, it could either be the problem of the designers or a problem on the customer side. Thing is, this is a GAME. This should be FUN. I dont want/need a DEV to tell me 'que random, if you want to earn RAD'. Rewarding a certain type pf game play is one thing. Removing the same reward from other types of playing does not make me want to run random ques, but does make me want to quit.
1. Don't run random epic dungeon queue. Forget about it.
2. Don't run PUG. Set up your private team.
3. If you want AD, spend 14 minutes or less on 3 member random level dungeon queue. Set up your own private team. All member needs to aware they will do door to door, no pick up, rush to the end for the sole purpose of AD. Certain channel can be set up for recruiting with this guide line and the channel member needs to acknowledge that.
4. After that, do whatever you want. Pick your own dungeon, etc and do what you usually do. Forget about random dungeon for that day.
You may consider that 14 minutes(*) is waste of time and no fun. However, comparing with spending time and fail in FBI, leaver penalty, etc, this is a much better alternative.
I said 14 minutes because I actually use my alts to do solo in all the level dungeons this weekend. That is the time I needed to do that and that also included picking stuff on the ground. Since I was not familiar with those dungeons and I did pick up stuff, reshuffle storage, in practice, an experience 3 member team should do a lot quicker than that. Probably, 10 minutes.
Yes, I used a stop watch.
As someone has already requested, this would probably all be a lot less confusing for those that aren't willing to read every page to reconstruct the discussion if you would kindly update the original posts to accurately reflect the current state of this proposal, including FAQ for the questions you see repeating.
As you read through the tangential, off-topic posts, rather than ignoring them, put them in your backlog bucket and try to get an answer to a few bucket questions a week, maybe. Let people know their question matters, and then tell them where they might find the answer.... some other central FAQ depot, not just a post that gets lost over time.
Start with "Are you guys ever going to bring the old dungeons back?" and "Please fix the loot tables instead of this."
You may think these are not on-topic, but it seems plenty of people posting on this feedback thread and most of the others would disagree. Addressing these things separately will help keep feedback threads on-topic... and help keep them from becoming 60 pages long. I'm sure veteran forum users like Becky would help, if you would just provide and organized way to handle already addressed questions (note the several times in this thread she and a couple others already have.)
Ignoring questions or requests from your users will only ever make them angry.
Finding a way to answer every question you can will surely take some work on the front end, but NOT doing that will only lead to a lot more ongoing work to replace users, which will just go on and on and you finally do that first part.
Several people have quoted you asking me for specific questions. I see what you guys are trying to do and I'm just making suggestions that I think might be helpful, so no, I don't have any specific questions I'd like answered in regards to this feature. I've said what I needed to say about it, and I'll wait to see its final form, hoping that you guys will listen to us and subdivide MSP, FBI and MSVA.
I was the one who asked for updating the first page. However, I did not follow the instruction (stated in page 1) to put my 2 cents using cyan colour. My bad. That may be the reason dev did not "see" that. IMO, it is very important that the first page to be updated. I was kind of arguing with guildie in the weekend about this topic. However, people had the knowledge about the first page and knew nothing about the amendment you did in page 13.
Random Queues could be a great idea if there was a fun reason for dungeons and skirmishes to be random. If skirmishes and dungeons had opportunities to use class specific non-combat and utility skills, abilities, or spells/prayers in order to make the completion faster and easier. Or to be able to explore a different area to which the party wouldn't otherwise have access. There are many possibilities, and it would actually create the opportunity to introduce a lot of encounters and situations into the game you find in paper&pencil D&D.
1) Encouraging high-level players to run low-level dungeons for AD: This is not interesting content for max-level characters, and our presence makes the content not interesting content for low level players as well. If the "level-scaling" mechanisms are very drastically changed, this may change, but with the current level-scaling, this makes an existing problem (high level players in low level dungeons) worse. As such, I'd prefer to see this random queue not provide a reward at all for max level characters, and have that rAD split between the other queues. If level scaling changes arrive, that can be revisited, but as-is, this feels 100% backwards. You are rewarding high level players for destroying low level character's enjoyment of dungeons.
2) Putting FBI and MSP in the same queue as Malabog's Castle: FBI and MSP are not fast or easy enough to ever be a desirable destination solely for AD. Randomly ending up in them while queuing with a group that cannot handle them is going to occur probably more often than randomly ending up in them while queuing with a group that can handle them. In addition, these two dungeons inflate the item level and campaign requirements of using the random queue significantly. Both FBI and MSP are month-long campaign unlocks, and both are from campaigns that new characters cannot safely complete when they first reach level 70. This means that for new players, the random queue changes will reduce their daily income of bonus rAD from dungeons significantly until they have completed RD and the bulk of SKT. I'd also like to add to that that any time spent queuing is time spent not doing campaign dailies. These players have less free game time available to spend grinding AD than a player who is done with daily quests does.
I don't think players would object nearly as heavily if FBI and MSP were moved to the Hero's Accord queue along with ToNG. They're still considered endgame content by nearly all players. I understand you thought about this but weren't sure what to do with Seals of the Brave. I'm not that worried about that tbh.
Another option would be tiering epic dungeon queues by "tiers", with MC/VT/ELOL being T1, ECC/ETOS/EGWD being T2, and FBI/MSP being T3.
If you tiered those queues, but those three tiers shared a once-daily reward (first run of any of the three gave the reward), I would be very happy with these changes instead of very unhappy with these changes.
Here's something that recently occurred to me. The people that can afford to pay to play this game already pay. The people that can't afford to pay, don't pay. Very little, if anything, can be done to change that. Making the game more fun and more interesting is a much better strategy to maintain or increase revenue. If Neverwinter becomes more fun, then it will attract more new players who read good reviews about it, keep more current players, and perhaps even encourage former players to return.
A minimum and maximum level won't make queues pop faster as intended and also will restrict higher level character's bonus RAD gaining choices, they will for the most part have to RQ epic and up content which a number do not want to because they want quick and easy RAD which seemingly is part of the reason the RQ system was formed (to help prevent players from manually selecting the easiest content for bonus RAD upon completion). Pretty certain CT, MotH, DL, EToS and SoT are the most manually queued for content (for obvious reasons) and the time for easily abusing it has come to an end.
Level 70 3-man versions will not help queues pop faster (queues popping faster is one of the goals of the RQ system), higher and lower level players in the same queue pool will. Opening more avenues to bot and abuse won't help solve the problem.
Illusionist's Gambit is random...yet a number of players still take the low road with "bronze" farms (remember reading somewhere about bronze rewards being changed). Even if more content was designed with randomness and alternative tactics as the basis and even with all the various ways players can earn actual AD which isn't capped like refining RAD a large number of players will still opt for the "easiest" options, that's just what players tend to do. Not stating that content with those things as a basis couldn't be a positive thing though often sooner rather than later the excitement goes away and those that were once interested will resort to the same type of tactics as before.
"Separate tiers" for the most part won't necessarily help produce the results the staff is seeking, it will just provide players with more bonus RAD for running content they don't want to which is what the RQ system will pretty much do anyway seeing as a large number of players prefer to only run at most about 5 specific queues. The staff can see why players are suggesting/want tiered dungeons in the RQ system, they want more bonus RAD in less time from easy content (T1 and T2) while skipping the harder content (T3) which is what they do pre-Mod 12b anyway LOL.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
How about scaling the RAD reward and giving them out piecemeal. eToS/eGWD/eCC, which can be done in 15-20 minutes, gives the reward at after the final boss.
CN, which probably takes 30-45 minutes, gives the reward after the second and last boss. You would end up with double the RAD for doing CN over eToS/eGWD/eCC.
FBI/mSP, which can easily take a PUG group almost an hour, gives the reward after every boss. You would be done for the day if you manage to finish the run. If not, then you probably gotten some RAD already and can do one more easy run for the rest of the RAD.
You can guarantee a T2 salvage drop instead if it makes it easier, but the loot table should slant more towards large armor because getting rings too often will HAMSTER people off also.
You probably want to give the extra bonus only for pure, or mostly, PUG groups to encourage BiS people to carry.
If your team has time for a big project like the "Random queues" but still leave such a game-breaking bug for so long, then you really need to get your priorities straight...
> Over 20 pages long of people not wanting/liking this.. When will they see what a poor implementation of a bad idea (although with good intentions) this really is?
They won't. What you have to figure out is, it doesn't matter how we wish the game to be or become. The only thing that matters is how the Devs see the game and their viewpoint of where they want it to go.
Hence the devs comment about wanting to re-implement the leaver penalty. The players don't want it, but it is in the devs vision, so it goes into the game. Doesn't matter if they upset the player base.
I truly believe the dev's thought process is: if you don't like the changes, too bad go find another game. I have a vision of how this game will play and that is how things will be.
My single largest complaint with this implementation is that it leaves new 70 tools in the dust AD wise until they are 11k and have completed RD and unlocked FBI, which is a minimum of a month, but probably longer now that their AD gain is going to take more time to grind at the expense of daily quests.
This game has a long history of network issues and these forums are filled with examples of people complaining about them.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox