A friend and I ran a private queue 2-man ELoL on preview. Both of us obtained 5100 RAD on completion, like normal. Whether this is intended or not, I don't know. There's 2 possibilities. Cryptic completely failed at communicating how the changes to queues actually work, and said the exact opposite of what they intended to say, or this is a mistake and it's going to be removed because Cryptic hates everyone, hates new players who don't meet the IL or campaign requirements for an entire random queue most of all, and doesn't care about the 100% negative response this entire debacle has wrought.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
I wonder how this "role" garbage will interact with loadouts. Role in party is more a matter of build than class selection. Just about every class has builds that work for at least two roles that the devs acknoledge to exist (tank, dps, and heals) some have viable builds for more roles than that.
Moreover the devs do not appear to grasp that we do not have three roles in the game we have atleast five: dps, tank, buff, debuff, and control. I am not sure if we should even count healing as a role anymore because its not really needed with lifesteal and certain companions.
On a healing sidenote the best healing class in the game is often a templock, but under the role system being espoused by the devs templocks would be considered dps.
On another side note: Whats to stop a paladin from entering a dungeon and as a healadin and counting as the healer and then switching to tankadin load out or entering as a tankadin and switching to a healadin loadout. In this senerio we will end up with two tanks or two healers something the devs dont want for some poorly explained reason.
Not entirely true from how I understand it, it seems to be the 2xDC thing they dislike, Pally Auras, are really limited to Courage and Wisdom, those don't stack. I don't know DC at all but am guessing due the current meta there is a distinct advantage to having two of them
Random queues make it harder for new players to catch up. Old and geared players can just run trough the dungeons the same way they do now, just in a public party instead of private.
For newer players though, they wont be able to get their bonus for a while until they unlock campaigns, and after they do, they still will be missing it a couple times a week, when they hit FBI or MSP or even CN.
Additionally, we know the servers and connections etc arent perfect. People sometimes disconnect. With private queues, you can wait for your friend who got disconnected to come back so he gets the reward he helped run the dungeon for. Public queues bring in the extra frustration so when someone disconnects, they will be replaced by some random.
I dare you, I DOUBLE DARE YOU, make an average player party, go into Tomb of the Nine Gods, and record it. By average I mean like most of those who will try (rank 7-9 enchantments, in best case r11 bonding, maybe not all artifacts on mythics, new blue gear because of IL, y'know), add them some boons so they'll be just above 12k IL.
Now try to run tong with 3 average dps, average dc, and average tank (preferably a Guardian fighter), and let's see how much time you'll need to finish it. Even with godmode, I seriously doubt it will take you less than 1-1,5 hours... Now, that leaver penalty of 30 minutes doesn't seem so bad.. Heck, I'd rather go with premade team in private queue and do it twice in that (at least an) hour that I'd be in otherwise, and I'll get at least 4 salvageable items so IDC about that "pathetic" 5k I'd get for losing my nerves by running for Hero's accord with a team that would take even msp 45+min.
Other than what I told up there, the rest seems good.. maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to remove leavers penalty if the run is lasting 50% longer than what you've put in description. (Imagine getting in party with people who don't know what they're doing, so you end up being in Lair of Lostmauth over an hour - might sound like an dumb example, but I've played with a couple of "pugs" 11k+ that often got lost in there).
Also, I don't agree with the AD thingy: there are days when I (and other players, I believe) don't have a lot of time, so I just run 2 quick dungeons and 2 quick skirmishes, to get daily AD... but now I'll have to sacrifice a child and whole herd of goats, just so I wouldn't get queued to MSP/FBI and Throne/Prophecy.. You could at least give a bit lesser AD rewards than for random queue...
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
I dare you, I DOUBLE DARE YOU, make an average player party, go into Tomb of the Nine Gods, and record it. By average I mean like most of those who will try (rank 7-9 enchantments, in best case r11 bonding, maybe not all artifacts on mythics, new blue gear because of IL, y'know), add them some boons so they'll be just above 12k IL.
Now try to run tong with 3 average dps, average dc, and average tank (preferably a Guardian fighter), and let's see how much time you'll need to finish it. Even with godmode, I seriously doubt it will take you less than 1-1,5 hours... Now, that leaver penalty of 30 minutes doesn't seem so bad.. Heck, I'd rather go with premade team in private queue and do it twice in that (at least an) hour that I'd be in otherwise, and I'll get at least 4 salvageable items so IDC about that "pathetic" 5k I'd get for losing my nerves by running for Hero's accord with a team that would take even msp 45+min.
Other than what I told up there, the rest seems good.. maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to remove leavers penalty if the run is lasting 50% longer than what you've put in description. (Imagine getting in party with people who don't know what they're doing, so you end up being in Lair of Lostmauth over an hour - might sound like an dumb example, but I've played with a couple of "pugs" 11k+ that often got lost in there).
Also, I don't agree with the AD thingy: there are days when I (and other players, I believe) don't have a lot of time, so I just run 2 quick dungeons and 2 quick skirmishes, to get daily AD... but now I'll have to sacrifice a child and whole herd of goats, just so I wouldn't get queued to MSP/FBI and Throne/Prophecy.. You could at least give a bit lesser AD rewards than for random queue...
Just double dare him to do it, and to do it until he succeeds.
EDIT: Am not interested in the slightest in what a spread sheet says will work, do it, record it, tell us when you succeed whether it is something you would enjoy doing every day.
I'm not even mad and thats a probem I'm too used to this kind of "clever" changes that come out, so I will just leave my ideas and hope (who I'm kidding you even make fun of that with "experience over hope" tittle) that somebody picks them up.
-If this is for bots that much likely leech leveling dungeons, remove ad rewards from them. (Is sad i know but you can get some ad from weeklies still)
-If you still want to pull this through i suggest all bosses should drop gear so we have a guarated ad income and not just seals and "chances". That and/or make so that by queue for random boost your chance to get an artifact/companion/mount from end chest.
-Remove the incentive of playing support classes, the least we need is people that don't understand how their own class works
-Make it so those who haven't unlock all dungeons can random queue ignoring the unlocked dungeons on the list.
That or make specific rewards for each dungeon like each dungeon dropping an specific artifact/mount/companion but thats too complicated for you i know
ndisclosed reason for doing it this way is an anti-botting strategy. I don't know which-all content has bots, but I'd say it's a pretty effective way of killing their ability to leech runs.
I never seen bots at all in queues, and I have run countless queues in the game. Only bots I ever see are the ones in zone with their silly non-sense buying text spamming. And even that I do not really see anymore at all in the game when lazying around in PE. Now what I see wrong is the quitting penalty, I mean let's face it - sometimes you lose a member in the team that was a low item level only to get an even lower item level player in their place.
That is not the worse case though, worse case is when you keep getting low item level players in your group, for example, at Epic Grey Wolf Den boss fight and being stuck in there for over 5 hours because your team doesn't have the DPS to get it done. So now that everyone will know they will be penalized if they were to leave instead of trying to get the job done, you will instead be forced to stay and keep failing and failing and failing... Before you know it, you could of been done with 6 other epic dungeons by the time you got out of just that one epic dungeon. So yeah, I do not think leaving a queue should be penalized, the only time people even leave a team is when they know the job can't be done or will take far too long. People don't just enter queues to leave it so adding this makes no sense.
Just adding to the countless posts already made about this being a very bad idea in its current form. Make these changes be an addition to the current system, not a replacement of it. I thought the bonding nerf was bad, but it pales in comparison to this pile of garbage.
Be funny of this was a false flag to divert attention from bondings.
Sorry, have my tinfoil hat on this week.
Worst case scenario, they're running out of money. This is a distinct possibility because pvp is dead pretty much, and pvp'ers were always the biggest spenders. Couple that with the fact that most of the top end pve whales have everything, and have very little left to spend their money on, I'm not a whale, and even I don't have any real goals left that would require dropping my credit card on my toon. The guilds that care are all GH20 and stable, so no spending there either.
Hence the rank 14s and the coalward sales etc.
To stop average players amassing free ad from daily dungeons and zaxxing it into zen, they get randomized, so you have to choose either running something you don't want for ad, or running something you do want.
If all this is the case I wish they'd just say "guys, we needs moneys, plz donate."
Question about quitter penalties. (I hate "leaver" and you can't make me use it. Get off my lawn.)
Are these going to be in place when the player/party gets matched into content they can't succeed at? I mean, does the system double punish you for failure?
Awww... now I want to camp out on Becky's lawn !
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
So Private queues are gone? dailiy rad income from 2 dungeon, 2 skirmish 2pvp matchs are going to be removed?
When I used to pvp we had the leavers penalty (I don't know if pvp still has it) and I'd disconnect fairly regularly. I became quite used to the unfairness of being banned from queuing for 30 mins for something that wasn't my fault.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
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lordsilveroakMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 17Arc User
Takes a slow look around the room.
You all better start addressing these excellent questions we have asked.If not then you have lied to us again just like the coals in vip when you removed them.If you ask for our input and we easily do your job showing a poor result and playability then the result you get will NOT be what you're looking for.Do you think perhaps the real dollars we spent on our alts is less than what is spent by new players? I am not trying to be anything but helpful as we all are. We love this game do you? It is time to make a statement devs or your silence will make it for you. And I for one am listening. It's my choice to finnish content on my alts not yours. SilverOak Main Dc alt tr alt pal alt
> @joe123thewayward said: > I wonder how the leaver penalty wil interact with the frequent game server disconnets. Usually a server disconnect in a PUG group will result in an automated removal from party. My best quess is that on days the game servers are cranky and disconnecting frequently PUGing will be even a bigger headache than normal as the disconnects hit players with the leaver penalty when they log back into the game a minute or so post disconnect.
I'm getting discod every hour of playtime or so. You are basically sol in a pug it's almost always filled by the time u get back. What would bite is getting discod right as the boss was dying penalty and no chest or reward
> @myrinx said: > Im not really adding anything new, but want to add the to voices why there is still a chance to change the way this is implemented. > > I feel like this is a blow to guilds. Many of my guildmates are people that almost never run pug groups. They have had too many bad experiences with players being rude and abusive and joined a guild to escape that. They are here to enjoy themselves not to be forced to run with people that make their experience unpleasant. > I'm sorry new players and unguilded people are having trouble finding groups to run with but these changes aren't going to do anything to keep people from abusing other players when they cant complete their dungeon AND no one can quit without a penalty. We shouldn't have to choose between having fun and progressing. By putting AD behind the random queue, that's what we are faced with. (yes, i know we can still run the random queue with friends, but as people have already pointed out, that comes with its own complications and barriers) > > So what if we want to run Temple of the Spider 1 or 100 times in a day if that's the way we choose to spend our time? Especially since I run with guild/alliance only groups and, therefore, would not be benefiting random people anyway. We are capable of making our own random queues. We do lots of different dungeons to mix things up when we get bored. We dont need someone else checking the boxes for us. There are certain dungeons we stay away from because very few of our people are well geared enough, and those that are, find it a time-consuming pain and just not fun. (I'm looking at you MSP). > > They act like people were being forced to run ETOS before, and thats why they quit. The irony now is they really are forcing people to run ETOS. > > People have been crying for MORE choices...not someone making their choices from a list of the same overplayed content.
If you want 100 etos runs with your friends you still can just no bonus ad for the first 2 runs
I still think just adding a vote at the start of the q would solve it except for rare instances. I.e shift1 for etos shift 2 ecc. Also make random q by tier. Problem solved
Not entirely true from how I understand it, it seems to be the 2xDC thing they dislike, Pally Auras, are really limited to Courage and Wisdom, those don't stack. I don't know DC at all but am guessing due the current meta there is a distinct advantage to having two of them
Yes, several big advantages.
#1: Anoited Champions get Anoited Army and Blessing Of Battle, which share a massive amount of power #2: Divine Oracles get Terrifying Insight, a flat 20% damage boost to the entire party, and Prophecy Of Doom, a large enemy damage resist debuff. #3: Both clerics share Power (the AC is just better at it) and the power sharing from both DCs stacks. #4: Two DCs means you can have Empowered Break The Spirit *and* Empowered Forgemaster's Flame up both at once, for another 60% damage boost.
In somewhat unrelated Patch news: Dead Owlbear Cubs aren't much fun.
Encounter CritRate Hits IC/Hits
Dreadtheft 33% 24 5
BoVA 27% 11 4
Pillar of Power -- 16 8
So, now that you nerfed the one thing that made the SW viable by more than 50%, are you going to increase his damage by 50% to compensate? No one wants an SW endgame as it is - despite having moderate DPS, massive debuffs, and the best heals in the game - because heals don't matter in a game with epileptic healthbars, the debuffs are in no way obvious, and no endgame SW can compete with an endgame GWF/HR/TR for DPS. Knocking our damage (and thus our heals) by another 50%+ isn't going to help. For a lot of us, Infantile Compensation was making up ~70% of our damage.
Not really asking you undo it - it was kind of stupid to have all SW's rely on that one-pet mechanic, but you gotta compensate them somewhere else, or it's a dead class.
Also don't be thinking we didn't notice the Ninja Nerf you pulled on the Live server Thursday, when you tweaked the Stalwart Lion so that his Radiant Weapon damage no longer shares with the group!
*sigh* I dunno how you go about making these people understand the simple concept that carrot > stick:
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Not entirely true from how I understand it, it seems to be the 2xDC thing they dislike, Pally Auras, are really limited to Courage and Wisdom, those don't stack. I don't know DC at all but am guessing due the current meta there is a distinct advantage to having two of them
Yes, several big advantages.
#1: Anoited Champions get Anoited Army and Blessing Of Battle, which share a massive amount of power #2: Divine Oracles get Terrifying Insight, a flat 20% damage boost to the entire party, and Prophecy Of Doom, a large enemy damage resist debuff. #3: Both clerics share Power (the AC is just better at it) and the power sharing from both DCs stacks. #4: Two DCs means you can have Empowered Break The Spirit *and* Empowered Forgemaster's Flame up both at once, for another 60% damage boost.
I dare you, I DOUBLE DARE YOU, make an average player party, go into Tomb of the Nine Gods, and record it. By average I mean like most of those who will try (rank 7-9 enchantments, in best case r11 bonding, maybe not all artifacts on mythics, new blue gear because of IL, y'know), add them some boons so they'll be just above 12k IL.
Now try to run tong with 3 average dps, average dc, and average tank (preferably a Guardian fighter), and let's see how much time you'll need to finish it. Even with godmode, I seriously doubt it will take you less than 1-1,5 hours... Now, that leaver penalty of 30 minutes doesn't seem so bad.. Heck, I'd rather go with premade team in private queue and do it twice in that (at least an) hour that I'd be in otherwise, and I'll get at least 4 salvageable items so IDC about that "pathetic" 5k I'd get for losing my nerves by running for Hero's accord with a team that would take even msp 45+min.
The item level requirement for dungeons is to 'enter' the dungeon. Being able to 'enter' a dungeon does not mean you are guaranteed success in that dungeon nor does it guarantee an easy time therein. Many people in this game and on these forums seem keen on the idea that meeting the minimum requirement to enter a dungeon means they should be able to easily complete that dungeon. I'd like to remind everyone that this is not the case.
Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.
I wonder how this "role" garbage will interact with loadouts. Role in party is more a matter of build than class selection. Just about every class has builds that work for at least two roles that the devs acknoledge to exist (tank, dps, and heals) some have viable builds for more roles than that.
Moreover the devs do not appear to grasp that we do not have three roles in the game we have atleast five: dps, tank, buff, debuff, and control. I am not sure if we should even count healing as a role anymore because its not really needed with lifesteal and certain companions.
On a healing sidenote the best healing class in the game is often a templock, but under the role system being espoused by the devs templocks would be considered dps.
On another side note: Whats to stop a paladin from entering a dungeon and as a healadin and counting as the healer and then switching to tankadin load out or entering as a tankadin and switching to a healadin loadout. In this senerio we will end up with two tanks or two healers something the devs dont want for some poorly explained reason.
Not entirely true from how I understand it, it seems to be the 2xDC thing they dislike, Pally Auras, are really limited to Courage and Wisdom, those don't stack. I don't know DC at all but am guessing due the current meta there is a distinct advantage to having two of them
I wonder how this "role" garbage will interact with loadouts. Role in party is more a matter of build than class selection. Just about every class has builds that work for at least two roles that the devs acknoledge to exist (tank, dps, and heals) some have viable builds for more roles than that.
Moreover the devs do not appear to grasp that we do not have three roles in the game we have atleast five: dps, tank, buff, debuff, and control. I am not sure if we should even count healing as a role anymore because its not really needed with lifesteal and certain companions.
On a healing sidenote the best healing class in the game is often a templock, but under the role system being espoused by the devs templocks would be considered dps.
On another side note: Whats to stop a paladin from entering a dungeon and as a healadin and counting as the healer and then switching to tankadin load out or entering as a tankadin and switching to a healadin loadout. In this senerio we will end up with two tanks or two healers something the devs dont want for some poorly explained reason.
Not entirely true from how I understand it, it seems to be the 2xDC thing they dislike, Pally Auras, are really limited to Courage and Wisdom, those don't stack. I don't know DC at all but am guessing due the current meta there is a distinct advantage to having two of them
The pally is not there for courage or wisdom they are there for the power share feat on the light tree
Aura of Courage is often-times the 2nd highest source of damage on a boss (right behind Sure Strike). Aura gifts is nice and all, but Aura of Courage ain't no slouch.
Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.
You all better start addressing these excellent questions we have asked.If not then you have lied to us again just like the coals in vip when you removed them.If you ask for our input and we easily do your job showing a poor result and playability then the result you get will NOT be what you're looking for.Do you think perhaps the real dollars we spent on our alts is less than what is spent by new players? I am not trying to be anything but helpful as we all are. We love this game do you? It is time to make a statement devs or your silence will make it for you. And I for one am listening. It's my choice to finnish content on my alts not yours. SilverOak Main Dc alt tr alt pal alt
They aren't going to respond over the weekend obviously lol. It will be Tuesday most likely before we get any dev responses.
feedback: this is an overly complicated and unnecessary system
So I guess my first question is why does this have to be a completely new and frankly stupid system? Why not just add it as a new option to the old system? I for one don't have any issue running 2 dungeons and 2 skirmishes daily. But I can understand some other players not liking that system and preferring the new system. Which is why it would make way more sense to just add it as a new option to the existing system.
I don't really like all the dungeons, some to the point where I refuse to play them at all as the rewards aren't worth the effort. And I know a lot of other players that feel the same way. So now we're going to be forced to possibly run dungeons we hate to earn our daily AD? And you really think this wont end up making players quit the game? I really don't understand how you think this make any sense.
"Keep in mind that for every player who had accepted that fate, there's another who upon learning that running Temple of the Spider twice a day for eternity was needed to max out their AD, said "no thank you" and stopped playing. " <-- which is complete BS as you can run any dungeon to earn your daily AD including private solo que for Cloak Tower at lvl70. So that's 8 dungons and 12 epic dungeons and Im not sure if the epic trials counted or not but still, that's 20 dungeons you could choose from every day to earn your daily AD. So its not a problem with the system, its the players problem for not choosing to play something other then the same 2 dungeons everyday.
As for the skirmishes, well that is the Devs fault for only having 5 skirmishes to choose from. Illusionist's Gambit is just too long and becomes boring by the end, boring as is "geez, does this thing ever end". Prophecy of Madness has been broken since god knows when since. Its damn near impossible to get 3xgold reward so most players don't like running it... again, Devs fault but still not problem with the system.
And let me tell you something you obviously don't want to hear, THIS CHANGE WILL NOT STOP BOTTERS!!!
All this change will do is fill more low level ques with bots that will most likely screw over the honest players trying to earn their daily AD since the bots may not be able to complete a dungeon thus making it impossible for the player to complete it as well. And since they cant complete it they will be force to quit the dungeon and possibly get a penalty. So in the end you're are really just making it even harder for low level players to earn AD.
Oh yes, it will cut a little bit of their profits but since they're not actually sitting in front of the computer playing the game I doubt they will be very upset by it, unlike your real players.
With all these new changes Bonding stones, que system, how AD is earned, refining. Its starting to feel like mod 6 all over again. Remember when the devs thought all the "new and exciting" changes in mod 6 were a good idea? Yea, ask the mass players that quit and all the dev team members that got fired how that worked out. For gods sake learn from your past mistakes.
On the list of things that need to be fixed in this game, the que system and and how we earn daily AD should have been at the bottom of the list on page 23.
Ok, I can see that you've put a lot of time and effort into this. That much is pretty clear. And I/we really appreciate that! But I also think that you're missing a lot or were making assumptions on how this would be taken by the community. There will be collateral damage from a change of this magnitude. As already expressed explicitly, this I can see being Module 6 magnitude. Player don't like being forced to play in a particular way. Time is a precious commodity and when there is no predictability to game play player move to where there is!
Please consider: "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it". George Santayana
...and I'm pretty sure you don't want a Mod 6 exodus like before.
Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity. Certain queues aren't popular for a reason. Notably because they are time sinks for negligible reward (Reward still being something of anathema to your business model)
Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety. Again, reward! The same content is run "ad nauseum" because it's the most efficient use of time against reward. You've had feedback "Ad nauseum" that you should bring back dungeons and skirmishes that were removed when Mod 6 hit. (I'm now utterly convinced that these have been lost/erased). Were you to reintroduce the missing content as variety, you'd have players dancing a jig for you!
Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals. This is significantly more complex, so I don't think you've achieved you're goal here. I don't think it's a high priority to aim for either
Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content. I like this as a goal, but you've received significant amounts of feedback asking you to look at the rewards coming from the chest. (i.e. a rank 5 and peridot)
Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times. There are reasons that have been explained as to why this is the case. Incentivizing through class balance is a significantly better way to achieve this goal. There are classes that you guys have gone on the record to say you'll be focusing on next, but as of the last twitch video it's clear that you haven't touched them. You as a company lose trust from this and it makes players angry. Rolling out this as a development then makes players furious
Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment. Wasn't this the whole object of Guilds? Collaboration in overcoming these goals, supporting new players coming in? You should really look at this previous objective rather than trying to shoehorn this system into the game
Please bear in mind and this is exceptionally important to note, this feature is still under development and every detail and value I outline below is subject to change.
I think the thing that sticks in my throat the most is the fact that we'd be forced to use the Random queue should we wish to earn AD. I don't like being forced to play in a particular way. I want some predictability! ...so I really hope that this is true when you say all this is subject to change!
This will probably be removed or get me baned from the forum but I just have to say this for some of the players that you as the develping team have forgotten.
Why is it we spent all this time working on guilds, then alliance's and building relationships with these people and now you want us to do dungeons with strangers? I understand that new people or small guilds may have problems doing content but we should not be penalized for this. Have them join guilds or alliances that are willing to help them grow. Now you are taking away AD from individuals that do not have the time to do a random because they could end up in a dungeon with people that could end up taking forever do to a lack of experience. I have people in my guild that can play 1 to 2 hours at the most a day, that gives them just enough time to do their dailies, solo a 3 man dungeon for a small amount of AD and then possible run 1 dungeon with the guild. They have been loyal to the game and now once again they are the ones being penalized, OH, did I forget to say that due to the time they can play they also dump large amounts of real money in the game for the things they need.
Now, I think the random queue is fine but has several failing issues, like I do not want to waste my time in MSP for a random rank 5 enchant nor do I want to be penalized because I get put with a group that has no chance of finishing it or with people that are rude and hateful. Plus I don't think that it is far for you to force us into this type of situation just so we can obtain AD. People need to take into account that just because players have a certain Item Level does not mean they can play well enough to even consider some of the high end dungeons and this type of group will fail, plus we lose all that time.
Most of my guild and alliance have decided that if changes to this are not done before implementation we will close our wallets and probably go play elsewhere. I have been here since Beta and so has 1/2 my guild, we have watched and been through many changes and excepted them but removing the ability of obtaining a small amount of AD from a lot of individuals with time issues is wrong. If you need to remove the AD from the dungeons due to botting then add a unbottable way for individuals with a short amount of time to obtain AD.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
edited September 2017
Ignoring our own selfish desires for a moment am going to project my capacity to earn AD on others here and make a couple of simple assumptions.
I dare say some here are in the bonding thread arguing over the bonding changes. How many here, should this come to pass, are going to have any problems forming premade 5 man teams and farming for example, eToS for salvage?
Personally, this isn't going to affect my ability to do salvage runs and earn significant AD from those runs. It will stop me running with friends with different ALTS to maximise our free AD on top of salvage we get.
I can think of 1 group who need this AD much more than I do, new players, PUGs with no choice but to use this system to get AD. It's like the end of GG where PUGs took a couple of months to realise they were being mercilessly farmed by the PvP guilds and eventually decided that it just wasn;t worth it.
You want to give everyone an equal chance? You are going to hurt the players who need this change the most. Players who have just started, a bit shy to join a guild, players without the gear necessary to complete the top tier content you are going to force them to play.
Now, this change doesn't affect me directly, it will not stop me running what I want with who I want. This change is going to drive the people away from the game who we need the most in the game. If you do not refresh the top players who leave these game with new players struggling to get to the top, we are going to ROT from the roots up.
@jumpingmorks They've basically shot themselves in the foot with the combination of these 2 updates. You'll have people not powerful enough to get in LFG groups due to people being more elitist than ever, and newbies getting turned away from the game because of it. Everyone becomes weaker AND everyone has a harder time finding a competent, working group in general. Neither of those are good, but the fact that everyone gets weaker probably breaks everything because you can just as easily get put into MSP with a bunch of 12k players who have never done it, because of freakkin' RNG. Not okay.
Nobody wants to spend two hours in an fbi or ecc with a group that can't get through just to get their daily a.d...
It's like you're trying to drive a huge wedge between end game and middle ground players... We struggle enough at a certain point to get from mid level to end game.
You hit about 13k and there's a wall of grinding to surpass that which is fine, it's end game, it's not supposed to be easy...
But putting a.d behind a wall that the people who need the a.d most can't get into is honestly stupid and doesn't make any sense... Honestly what are you guys doing over there? Trying to kill your own game?
5
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
they are solving a problem that doesnt exist.. new players benefit from same system as older ones.. its just the sheer armount of runs needed to gear up that is the real issue.
While some of the RP rework will make a few thigns cheaper.. they are actually extending costs in the end to a even higher level, while making it more difficult to achieve AD farming.
you didnt even have to play end game materials to make a end game build .. you just needed access to multiple runs of AD farming a day.. you could then buy a full set of Masterworks, and all the gear.. and be nearly the same as anyone else.. which is 100% fine by me.. I prefer not having to run hundreds of hours to restore gear.. I hate that in fact.
sure it takes thousands of said runs to do that.. but it TOOK thousands of said runs for me to do that too..
there wasnt any real shortcuts.. just farmed every day for a bunch of AD to make my toons viable.
if they wanted to help newer players.. lower costs on marks and such.. that is way more of a help then doing what they are doing with this garbage.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
the crazy part is.. only the truly snoby snobs RAN every end game dungeon with two dcs. so what.. a few hundred max a day like that?
most others just took 2 dps and 3 whatever.. gf/op/dc or drop one and add a mof or maybe do a combo of a sw with it.. that to me was the vast majority of runs lately.. this was such a huge issue you had to destroy the game..?
or is it simply to force campaign sales?
that seems more likely to me.
what a joke this whole thing is.. a sad nightmare of a joke.
Comments
Random queues make it harder for new players to catch up. Old and geared players can just run trough the dungeons the same way they do now, just in a public party instead of private.
For newer players though, they wont be able to get their bonus for a while until they unlock campaigns, and after they do, they still will be missing it a couple times a week, when they hit FBI or MSP or even CN.
Additionally, we know the servers and connections etc arent perfect. People sometimes disconnect. With private queues, you can wait for your friend who got disconnected to come back so he gets the reward he helped run the dungeon for. Public queues bring in the extra frustration so when someone disconnects, they will be replaced by some random.
I dare you, I DOUBLE DARE YOU, make an average player party, go into Tomb of the Nine Gods, and record it.
By average I mean like most of those who will try (rank 7-9 enchantments, in best case r11 bonding, maybe not all artifacts on mythics, new blue gear because of IL, y'know), add them some boons so they'll be just above 12k IL.
Now try to run tong with 3 average dps, average dc, and average tank (preferably a Guardian fighter), and let's see how much time you'll need to finish it. Even with godmode, I seriously doubt it will take you less than 1-1,5 hours... Now, that leaver penalty of 30 minutes doesn't seem so bad.. Heck, I'd rather go with premade team in private queue and do it twice in that (at least an) hour that I'd be in otherwise, and I'll get at least 4 salvageable items so IDC about that "pathetic" 5k I'd get for losing my nerves by running for Hero's accord with a team that would take even msp 45+min.
Other than what I told up there, the rest seems good.. maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to remove leavers penalty if the run is lasting 50% longer than what you've put in description. (Imagine getting in party with people who don't know what they're doing, so you end up being in Lair of Lostmauth over an hour - might sound like an dumb example, but I've played with a couple of "pugs" 11k+ that often got lost in there).
Also, I don't agree with the AD thingy: there are days when I (and other players, I believe) don't have a lot of time, so I just run 2 quick dungeons and 2 quick skirmishes, to get daily AD... but now I'll have to sacrifice a child and whole herd of goats, just so I wouldn't get queued to MSP/FBI and Throne/Prophecy..
You could at least give a bit lesser AD rewards than for random queue...
EDIT:
Am not interested in the slightest in what a spread sheet says will work, do it, record it, tell us when you succeed whether it is something you would enjoy doing every day.
-If this is for bots that much likely leech leveling dungeons, remove ad rewards from them. (Is sad i know but you can get some ad from weeklies still)
-If you still want to pull this through i suggest all bosses should drop gear so we have a guarated ad income and not just seals and "chances". That and/or make so that by queue for random boost your chance to get an artifact/companion/mount from end chest.
-Remove the incentive of playing support classes, the least we need is people that don't understand how their own class works
-Make it so those who haven't unlock all dungeons can random queue ignoring the unlocked dungeons on the list.
That or make specific rewards for each dungeon like each dungeon dropping an specific artifact/mount/companion but thats too complicated for you i know
That is not the worse case though, worse case is when you keep getting low item level players in your group, for example, at Epic Grey Wolf Den boss fight and being stuck in there for over 5 hours because your team doesn't have the DPS to get it done. So now that everyone will know they will be penalized if they were to leave instead of trying to get the job done, you will instead be forced to stay and keep failing and failing and failing... Before you know it, you could of been done with 6 other epic dungeons by the time you got out of just that one epic dungeon. So yeah, I do not think leaving a queue should be penalized, the only time people even leave a team is when they know the job can't be done or will take far too long. People don't just enter queues to leave it so adding this makes no sense.
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Sorry, have my tinfoil hat on this week.
Worst case scenario, they're running out of money. This is a distinct possibility because pvp is dead pretty much, and pvp'ers were always the biggest spenders. Couple that with the fact that most of the top end pve whales have everything, and have very little left to spend their money on, I'm not a whale, and even I don't have any real goals left that would require dropping my credit card on my toon. The guilds that care are all GH20 and stable, so no spending there either.
Hence the rank 14s and the coalward sales etc.
To stop average players amassing free ad from daily dungeons and zaxxing it into zen, they get randomized, so you have to choose either running something you don't want for ad, or running something you do want.
If all this is the case I wish they'd just say "guys, we needs moneys, plz donate."
I'd donate.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
You all better start addressing these excellent questions we have asked.If not then you have lied to us again just like the coals in vip when you removed them.If you ask for our input and we easily do your job showing a poor result and playability then the result you get will NOT be what you're looking for.Do you think perhaps the real dollars we spent on our alts is less than what is spent by new players?
I am not trying to be anything but helpful as we all are.
We love this game do you?
It is time to make a statement devs or your silence will make it for you.
And I for one am listening.
It's my choice to finnish content on my alts not yours.
SilverOak Main
Dc alt
tr alt
pal alt
> I wonder how the leaver penalty wil interact with the frequent game server disconnets. Usually a server disconnect in a PUG group will result in an automated removal from party. My best quess is that on days the game servers are cranky and disconnecting frequently PUGing will be even a bigger headache than normal as the disconnects hit players with the leaver penalty when they log back into the game a minute or so post disconnect.
I'm getting discod every hour of playtime or so. You are basically sol in a pug it's almost always filled by the time u get back. What would bite is getting discod right as the boss was dying penalty and no chest or reward
> Im not really adding anything new, but want to add the to voices why there is still a chance to change the way this is implemented.
>
> I feel like this is a blow to guilds. Many of my guildmates are people that almost never run pug groups. They have had too many bad experiences with players being rude and abusive and joined a guild to escape that. They are here to enjoy themselves not to be forced to run with people that make their experience unpleasant.
> I'm sorry new players and unguilded people are having trouble finding groups to run with but these changes aren't going to do anything to keep people from abusing other players when they cant complete their dungeon AND no one can quit without a penalty. We shouldn't have to choose between having fun and progressing. By putting AD behind the random queue, that's what we are faced with. (yes, i know we can still run the random queue with friends, but as people have already pointed out, that comes with its own complications and barriers)
>
> So what if we want to run Temple of the Spider 1 or 100 times in a day if that's the way we choose to spend our time? Especially since I run with guild/alliance only groups and, therefore, would not be benefiting random people anyway. We are capable of making our own random queues. We do lots of different dungeons to mix things up when we get bored. We dont need someone else checking the boxes for us. There are certain dungeons we stay away from because very few of our people are well geared enough, and those that are, find it a time-consuming pain and just not fun. (I'm looking at you MSP).
>
> They act like people were being forced to run ETOS before, and thats why they quit. The irony now is they really are forcing people to run ETOS.
>
> People have been crying for MORE choices...not someone making their choices from a list of the same overplayed content.
If you want 100 etos runs with your friends you still can just no bonus ad for the first 2 runs
#1: Anoited Champions get Anoited Army and Blessing Of Battle, which share a massive amount of power
#2: Divine Oracles get Terrifying Insight, a flat 20% damage boost to the entire party, and Prophecy Of Doom, a large enemy damage resist debuff.
#3: Both clerics share Power (the AC is just better at it) and the power sharing from both DCs stacks.
#4: Two DCs means you can have Empowered Break The Spirit *and* Empowered Forgemaster's Flame up both at once, for another 60% damage boost.
So, now that you nerfed the one thing that made the SW viable by more than 50%, are you going to increase his damage by 50% to compensate? No one wants an SW endgame as it is - despite having moderate DPS, massive debuffs, and the best heals in the game - because heals don't matter in a game with epileptic healthbars, the debuffs are in no way obvious, and no endgame SW can compete with an endgame GWF/HR/TR for DPS. Knocking our damage (and thus our heals) by another 50%+ isn't going to help. For a lot of us, Infantile Compensation was making up ~70% of our damage.
Not really asking you undo it - it was kind of stupid to have all SW's rely on that one-pet mechanic, but you gotta compensate them somewhere else, or it's a dead class.
Also don't be thinking we didn't notice the Ninja Nerf you pulled on the Live server Thursday, when you tweaked the Stalwart Lion so that his Radiant Weapon damage no longer shares with the group!
*sigh* I dunno how you go about making these people understand the simple concept that carrot > stick:
hallowed ground 40% damage buff you forgot.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
So I guess my first question is why does this have to be a completely new and frankly stupid system?
Why not just add it as a new option to the old system? I for one don't have any issue running 2 dungeons and 2 skirmishes daily. But I can understand some other players not liking that system and preferring the new system. Which is why it would make way more sense to just add it as a new option to the existing system.
I don't really like all the dungeons, some to the point where I refuse to play them at all as the rewards aren't worth the effort. And I know a lot of other players that feel the same way. So now we're going to be forced to possibly run dungeons we hate to earn our daily AD? And you really think this wont end up making players quit the game? I really don't understand how you think this make any sense.
"Keep in mind that for every player who had accepted that fate, there's another who upon learning that running Temple of the Spider twice a day for eternity was needed to max out their AD, said "no thank you" and stopped playing. " <-- which is complete BS as you can run any dungeon to earn your daily AD including private solo que for Cloak Tower at lvl70. So that's 8 dungons and 12 epic dungeons and Im not sure if the epic trials counted or not but still, that's 20 dungeons you could choose from every day to earn your daily AD. So its not a problem with the system, its the players problem for not choosing to play something other then the same 2 dungeons everyday.
As for the skirmishes, well that is the Devs fault for only having 5 skirmishes to choose from. Illusionist's Gambit is just too long and becomes boring by the end, boring as is "geez, does this thing ever end". Prophecy of Madness has been broken since god knows when since. Its damn near impossible to get 3xgold reward so most players don't like running it... again, Devs fault but still not problem with the system.
And let me tell you something you obviously don't want to hear, THIS CHANGE WILL NOT STOP BOTTERS!!!
All this change will do is fill more low level ques with bots that will most likely screw over the honest players trying to earn their daily AD since the bots may not be able to complete a dungeon thus making it impossible for the player to complete it as well. And since they cant complete it they will be force to quit the dungeon and possibly get a penalty. So in the end you're are really just making it even harder for low level players to earn AD.
Oh yes, it will cut a little bit of their profits but since they're not actually sitting in front of the computer playing the game I doubt they will be very upset by it, unlike your real players.
With all these new changes Bonding stones, que system, how AD is earned, refining. Its starting to feel like mod 6 all over again.
Remember when the devs thought all the "new and exciting" changes in mod 6 were a good idea? Yea, ask the mass players that quit and all the dev team members that got fired how that worked out. For gods sake learn from your past mistakes.
On the list of things that need to be fixed in this game, the que system and and how we earn daily AD should have been at the bottom of the list on page 23.
But I also think that you're missing a lot or were making assumptions on how this would be taken by the community. There will be collateral damage from a change of this magnitude. As already expressed explicitly, this I can see being Module 6 magnitude.
Player don't like being forced to play in a particular way. Time is a precious commodity and when there is no predictability to game play player move to where there is!
Please consider:
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it". George Santayana
...and I'm pretty sure you don't want a Mod 6 exodus like before.
I think the thing that sticks in my throat the most is the fact that we'd be forced to use the Random queue should we wish to earn AD. I don't like being forced to play in a particular way. I want some predictability!
...so I really hope that this is true when you say all this is subject to change!
Why is it we spent all this time working on guilds, then alliance's and building relationships with these people and now you want us to do dungeons with strangers? I understand that new people or small guilds may have problems doing content but we should not be penalized for this. Have them join guilds or alliances that are willing to help them grow. Now you are taking away AD from individuals that do not have the time to do a random because they could end up in a dungeon with people that could end up taking forever do to a lack of experience. I have people in my guild that can play 1 to 2 hours at the most a day, that gives them just enough time to do their dailies, solo a 3 man dungeon for a small amount of AD and then possible run 1 dungeon with the guild. They have been loyal to the game and now once again they are the ones being penalized, OH, did I forget to say that due to the time they can play they also dump large amounts of real money in the game for the things they need.
Now, I think the random queue is fine but has several failing issues, like I do not want to waste my time in MSP for a random rank 5 enchant nor do I want to be penalized because I get put with a group that has no chance of finishing it or with people that are rude and hateful. Plus I don't think that it is far for you to force us into this type of situation just so we can obtain AD. People need to take into account that just because players have a certain Item Level does not mean they can play well enough to even consider some of the high end dungeons and this type of group will fail, plus we lose all that time.
Most of my guild and alliance have decided that if changes to this are not done before implementation we will close our wallets and probably go play elsewhere. I have been here since Beta and so has 1/2 my guild, we have watched and been through many changes and excepted them but removing the ability of obtaining a small amount of AD from a lot of individuals with time issues is wrong. If you need to remove the AD from the dungeons due to botting then add a unbottable way for individuals with a short amount of time to obtain AD.
I dare say some here are in the bonding thread arguing over the bonding changes. How many here, should this come to pass, are going to have any problems forming premade 5 man teams and farming for example, eToS for salvage?
Personally, this isn't going to affect my ability to do salvage runs and earn significant AD from those runs. It will stop me running with friends with different ALTS to maximise our free AD on top of salvage we get.
I can think of 1 group who need this AD much more than I do, new players, PUGs with no choice but to use this system to get AD. It's like the end of GG where PUGs took a couple of months to realise they were being mercilessly farmed by the PvP guilds and eventually decided that it just wasn;t worth it.
You want to give everyone an equal chance? You are going to hurt the players who need this change the most. Players who have just started, a bit shy to join a guild, players without the gear necessary to complete the top tier content you are going to force them to play.
Now, this change doesn't affect me directly, it will not stop me running what I want with who I want. This change is going to drive the people away from the game who we need the most in the game. If you do not refresh the top players who leave these game with new players struggling to get to the top, we are going to ROT from the roots up.
They've basically shot themselves in the foot with the combination of these 2 updates. You'll have people not powerful enough to get in LFG groups due to people being more elitist than ever, and newbies getting turned away from the game because of it. Everyone becomes weaker AND everyone has a harder time finding a competent, working group in general. Neither of those are good, but the fact that everyone gets weaker probably breaks everything because you can just as easily get put into MSP with a bunch of 12k players who have never done it, because of freakkin' RNG. Not okay.
It's like you're trying to drive a huge wedge between end game and middle ground players... We struggle enough at a certain point to get from mid level to end game.
You hit about 13k and there's a wall of grinding to surpass that which is fine, it's end game, it's not supposed to be easy...
But putting a.d behind a wall that the people who need the a.d most can't get into is honestly stupid and doesn't make any sense... Honestly what are you guys doing over there? Trying to kill your own game?
While some of the RP rework will make a few thigns cheaper.. they are actually extending costs in the end to a even higher level, while making it more difficult to achieve AD farming.
you didnt even have to play end game materials to make a end game build .. you just needed access to multiple runs of AD farming a day.. you could then buy a full set of Masterworks, and all the gear.. and be nearly the same as anyone else.. which is 100% fine by me.. I prefer not having to run hundreds of hours to restore gear.. I hate that in fact.
sure it takes thousands of said runs to do that.. but it TOOK thousands of said runs for me to do that too..
there wasnt any real shortcuts.. just farmed every day for a bunch of AD to make my toons viable.
if they wanted to help newer players.. lower costs on marks and such.. that is way more of a help then doing what they are doing with this garbage.
most others just took 2 dps and 3 whatever.. gf/op/dc or drop one and add a mof or maybe do a combo of a sw with it..
that to me was the vast majority of runs lately..
this was such a huge issue you had to destroy the game..?
or is it simply to force campaign sales?
that seems more likely to me.
what a joke this whole thing is.. a sad nightmare of a joke.