@armadeonx are you rocking a build you did yourself or are you using Lilia Drakon's/Galatic Underwear's? If they're similarly geared, your TR should be eating your SW for breakfast in single target damage and should be beating or at least performing similarly vs groups of low hp enemies, vs groups of high hp enemies SW should win thanks to TC and proper rotation.
I am using Lilia Drakon/Sirjimbo's build (although for some reason I just noticed I put 5pts into Dying Breath instead of Deathknell... I'll have to fix that lol).
I'm used to the rotations and love the play style and I would say the TR does a bit better on single target but the SW does better on mobs (a combo of PoP & AoH works well for me) it's a Hellbringer Fury build btw with an aoe setup for most content - I moved away from the Damnation/Puppet build when it was 'corrected' a while back.
I know I could get the TRs damage better if I focused my investment on him but 'pound for pound' I know it's better spent on my HR at the moment (or CW, he has a T. Lighting now and wrecks everything in sight).
I believe the HR is where the TR should be, in particular the combat HR. The play style is an aggressive 'in-your-face' version of how the TR plays, I think the Executioner path should do comparable damage and not this SoD 'build-it-up' nonsense.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
@armadeonx oh there you go, feat changes to do here and there xD Seriously though, now that loadouts are a thing you should be rocking 1 for mobs and 1 for boss fights, it definitely boosts perfomance.
If your SW is HB then your TR's singe target damage should be noticeable higher in longer - long boss fights, while difference be not be as high with a SB build, HB is not a match for a good TR for sure. Depending on groups, I'd suggest you to use fiery bolt instead of AoH for trash clearing, it generally is better if you are running with a melt group so you have little to no time to use encounters, in those situations' AoH's slower attack speed can result in lower dps plus dc's and pallies help with cooldown reductions. I see what you use it though and I do it myself when I feel lazy about swtiching powers so for example run KF (feated with MF), PoP (feated with Po9H) and AoH and that works as a decent well rounded rotation, it saves me the annoyance of switching powers every now and then. Like, even if I go try hard more GWF/CW lulz multiproccing monsters and HR with a 75% crit severity ench with virtually no cooldowns and 6 encounter powers will outdps me by quite a bit even if I use the very best powers for each situation xD Yes I know combat HR is supposed to be better aoe but just justified why I'd run PoP (feated with Po9H), KF and AoF.
Yeah true that, HR is one of the overall top 3 damage dealers with GWF and CW the other 2, they definitely have an edge over the rest as others do actually have tradeoffs: great single target damage with respectable aoe/viceversa or okay at both.
I do believe the damage output should be:
Single target: TR, GWF, SW, GF, OP, HR, CW, DC.
AoE: CW, HR, SW, GWF, OP, GF, TR, DC.
This way classes actually have a tradeoff instead of the current nonsense we do have with HR, CW, GWF being gods at both single target and aoe dps o.O
I wonder how both Shadow of Demise and Creeping Death would work in both pve and pvp if they were changed to work by instantly proccing an extra hit based on a percentage of damage from x or y types of powers, with the current system SoD is crazy strong in pvp but is out of context of pve's burst friendly mechanics and elements. Creeping Death has it much much worse in PVE (it take way too long to deal full damage so almost never can actually benefit the SW properly) and in PVP tenacity reduces its damage to laughable amounts.
@armadeonx oh there you go, feat changes to do here and there xD Seriously though, now that loadouts are a thing you should be rocking 1 for mobs and 1 for boss fights, it definitely boosts perfomance.
If your SW is HB then your TR's singe target damage should be noticeable higher in longer - long boss fights, while difference be not be as high with a SB build, HB is not a match for a good TR for sure. Depending on groups, I'd suggest you to use fiery bolt instead of AoH for trash clearing, it generally is better if you are running with a melt group so you have little to no time to use encounters, in those situations' AoH's slower attack speed can result in lower dps plus dc's and pallies help with cooldown reductions. I see what you use it though and I do it myself when I feel lazy about swtiching powers so for example run KF (feated with MF), PoP (feated with Po9H) and AoH and that works as a decent well rounded rotation, it saves me the annoyance of switching powers every now and then. Like, even if I go try hard more GWF/CW lulz multiproccing monsters and HR with a 75% crit severity ench with virtually no cooldowns and 6 encounter powers will outdps me by quite a bit even if I use the very best powers for each situation xD Yes I know combat HR is supposed to be better aoe but just justified why I'd run PoP (feated with Po9H), KF and AoF.
Yeah true that, HR is one of the overall top 3 damage dealers with GWF and CW the other 2, they definitely have an edge over the rest as others do actually have tradeoffs: great single target damage with respectable aoe/viceversa or okay at both.
I do believe the damage output should be:
Single target: TR, GWF, SW, GF, OP, HR, CW, DC.
AoE: CW, HR, SW, GWF, OP, GF, TR, DC.
This way classes actually have a tradeoff instead of the current nonsense we do have with HR, CW, GWF being gods at both single target and aoe dps o.O
I wonder how both Shadow of Demise and Creeping Death would work in both pve and pvp if they were changed to work by instantly proccing an extra hit based on a percentage of damage from x or y types of powers, with the current system SoD is crazy strong in pvp but is out of context of pve's burst friendly mechanics and elements. Creeping Death has it much much worse in PVE (it take way too long to deal full damage so almost never can actually benefit the SW properly) and in PVP tenacity reduces its damage to laughable amounts.
Cws already have to chose between single target and AOE hard wired right into thier feat tree no avoiding it from the earlier mods when they were the favoured class ... their aoe single target got nerfed they already have a trade off they probably is one of the best balanced class in the game at the moment as far as feat tree and path versatility all paths are pretty good for pvp and pve
cw good at single target and AOE just lol dude LOL any class is good at both single target and aoe fully pumped up with rank 12 bonding etc ...
there are so many sources of power that are independent of class your proposal would have to remove all of it ... not going to happen
Sir after the recent patch Shadow of demise is outright broken on TR in pvp now as I am sure you now know and were probably flooded with messages about.
great you buffed shocking execution after some thought and testing great.. however i do not think these same play testers reviews the shadows of demise changes in pvp
please be agile in review and making adjustment and changes pronto we need quick small definitive changes / reactions from you when something breaks balance this bad
P.S this is way more broken then shocking ever was .. I mean you cant even dodge its effects bro there is no counter play its cheesy as you know what ...and yes you admitted you play a Tr ; D
this further leads to and solidifies my point that power tables/ abilities should work completely differently in pvp you already coded many powers that do / have dual effects pvp vs pve
this one is a prime candidate for dual coding sir we dont want the pveers / pvps whining and vice versa you dont want a damed if you do damed if you done scenario as i am sure often happens
@kalina311 feel free to take your "lol" back, you either are doing something really wrong or you know only about CW, you can ask @rjc9000 to help you get a run with top tier CWs so you can see yourself both aoe and single target damage is great especially now that there are loadouts are a thing.
As for the damage output thing, I simply stated it as an opinion and from a balance perspective it does make sense that classes actually have tradeoffs. As it stands, GWF, HR and CW are above the rest in overall perfomance. Top tier single target damage and top tier aoe damage, nice tradeoff there! xD
The thing ins't whether classes can do both aoe/single dps but, for balance's sake, it makes sense that classes should excell at 1 role and be inferior at another, as your class is one of the 3 current sacred cows dps-wise of course you'll deny the fact CW, GWF and HR are beasts at both aoe and single target damage, meanwhile the other class do actually have weaknesses which of course doesn't mean they can't do well at aoe/single target dps (SW and TR do have their disavantages at either though)
So no, using "rank 12 bondings etc..." doesn't change the fact that other class can't achieve the overall perfomance the 3 sacred cows currently do.
I don't think is worth it to carry on with our arguments but after reading your other post I'd like to ask you something about it as it is always good to know different points of view of a common topic as in, I already know opinions on SoD from other classes.
Edit: Nevermind, I had forgot to check the link of your post but I eventually did. I'd like to know the original poster's build, it is crazy he got hit like that by SoD even though he had several things on mitigating incoming damage.
@rgutscheradev is the new SoD working as intended in pvp considering the changes you did to piercing damage? Perhaps you can check SoD again and tell us whether that's how you intend it to be? Dodgeless class that also happen not to a have block mechanic may be in the similar situation GWF was when arp resist was removed on preview, that new SoD could cause serious survability issues to them so you may need to address that. If that's how you intend that capstone to be though then let's see what players come up with to counter that
@kalina311 feel free to take your "lol" back, you either are doing something really wrong or you know only about CW, you can ask @rjc9000 to help you get a run with top tier CWs so you can see yourself both aoe and single target damage is great especially now that there are loadouts are a thing.
As for the damage output thing, I simply stated it as an opinion and from a balance perspective it does make sense that classes actually have tradeoffs. As it stands, GWF, HR and CW are above the rest in overall perfomance. Top tier single target damage and top tier aoe damage, nice tradeoff there! xD
The thing ins't whether classes can do both aoe/single dps but, for balance's sake, it makes sense that classes should excell at 1 role and be inferior at another, as your class is one of the 3 current sacred cows dps-wise of course you'll deny the fact CW, GWF and HR are beasts at both aoe and single target damage, meanwhile the other class do actually have weaknesses which of course doesn't mean they can't do well at aoe/single target dps (SW and TR do have their disavantages at either though)
So no, using "rank 12 bondings etc..." doesn't change the fact that other class can't achieve the overall perfomance the 3 sacred cows currently do.
I don't think is worth it to carry on with our arguments but after reading your other post I'd like to ask you something about it as it is always good to know different points of view of a common topic as in, I already know opinions on SoD from other classes.
What was your experience 1v1ing SoD TRs and how did you deal with it? From what you saw, what do you think is making SoD overperform and what would be your suggestions to put it down to a reasonable level?
tho yours suggestion are well thought out and written there is limited budget and staff as you know and its not mod 1
you cant have classes excel at single target / vs aoe when there is pvp and pve builds .. and trash mobs vs boss and people that want to solo vs group up ..and limited dev resources same argument goes for self healing vs no self healing total class re work is pipe dream and not going to happen .. and besides we have been advocating smaller micro changes in the forums and tweaks done more frequently per class .. vs doing nothing
P.S I think I will pass on the Cw training lol im good thxs
Just to get all the information out there! Hopefully this helps -
1. There is a counter. BiS TR already instinctively know how to avoid the big Shadow of Demise bursts by dodging the attacks leading up to the hit. This is because SoD calculates all pre-mitigated damage but not "dodged" attacks. Say, if the TR is doing a daily rotation that stacks up 100K demise, dodging the daily (often Bloodbath) is doable enough and lowers the proc damage considerably. That being said, stacking infinite stamina as being argued previously in this thread is a counter. When everybody catches up it will be a lot more manageable.
2. Burst damage is still definitely a problem in PvP, and I'm not defending the fringe cases when this power can still do upwards of 200K in damage. It happens to heavily debuffed target or when two TR's proc demise at the same time to one target. But in a world where Paladin can have 1.5K kills in leaderboard, GF can do 150K+ bullcharge, TANKS!, please consider how 100K is not balanced for a full DPS TR class.
If anything, TR needs a huge tone down to survivability. Damage may or may not be right where it should be, but in the scheme of things it's fulfilling the advertised role.
SoD now ignore many defensive abilities in phase of calculation of its damage. So, maybe this is the reason of so high damage?
My question is: Is it planned mechanics or you are going to fix it?
Here is a question put forward in the other thread. Please do correct me if I am wrong, but it has always been the intended mechanism for piercing to compute damage before any mitigation as stated by the tooltip. This is how HR Piercing Blades always worked. By calculating mitigated damage, as Demise did before, and doing 50% of that again as "piercing" damage, it's not piercing so much as just 50% bonus damage. Also now, if you reverted to that mode it will become double penalized by Tenacity, leaving it worse than it was in the first place.
In PvE, we have reached a consensus among the best TRs that Shadow of Demise and Duelist Flurry take too long to become effective, that enemies are oftentimes dead before we can see a single Shadow of Demise hit. Please take this into account if you ought to rebalance this feat yet again. One way is to change the way this feat deals damage from dealing burst damage after 6 seconds, to spreading the piercing damage over the duration, also much like how Piercing Blades work.
@kalina I think what they could do would be making other classes beat CW/HR/GWF at a specific type of damage output, for example, if TR got its single target dps buffed to the point its unmatched on boss fights, I could bet 99.99% TRs would be fine with that, the other classes would still eat TR for breakfast in aoe damage, this way, you achieve at least 2 things: 1. Increasing the effectiveness of a class to where it does its intended role (seriously why isn't TR the #1 single target damage dealer?). 2 Other classes are left alone. It's as a win - win situation. I believe SW should be the most powerful single target damage dealer of the ranged classes, if our dots last 999999999999999999 years, our powers have horrible cooldowns and casting times then every single one of them should hit like a truck and only TR and GWF should beat us in boss fights.
There's a good reason @rjc9000 refused to get you to run with those CWs, devs may come up with nerfs if seeing what they can do.
@rustlord you forgot that not all classes can dodge so "dodging bloodbath" is not an option for some of them.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
The only reason Cw appear to excel at single target is cause disintigrate has an extremely low cool down and does over damage to targets below a certain threshold of health essential tabbulating more damage to the players score then it took to kill the enemy ... also not counting the other debuffs on the target \
most single target cws spells are not even used in pvp or pve or are completely useless in either mode the imprisonment spell comes to mind
P.s I dont need anybodies charity to form a group or to "run the the best " lol thxs tho what you dont think the devs can see the completion time of such players damage done by power etc ?
so single target cw damage should be nerfed based on those few super secret players that are too good for me to run with ? LOL
Trs only good at boss fights? ok so run a group to the end .. then switch kick players for only Trs ? good class balance there we already had this problem with favoured classes and still do ...oh how nice of you you humbly ONLY want tr to excel at boss fights lol so tr wanting to complete thier dailies with low gear score and solo are then at a disadvantage then facing the packs of mobs then cause all thier AOE power now are bad / reduced in effectiveness so now they are "forced to group up" can you see where it a slipper slope then with a class only excelling at one thing and one aspect of the game playstyle
no one class should exclusively excel or not excel at anything (aoe vs single target )that is what the class feats and paragons are to customise the class to your playstyle that where the devs need to tweak things and make other feats tree more viable in more classes so they are not piggeon holed into one roll as you are suggesting
also whats the point of having different switchable specs if a class can then only excel at one thing.. asside from switching gear or the need for pvp / pve mode ..
do you actually think the game should be balanced around the 1% bis characters that can be the execpetion to any rule on any point we chose to bring up and we should use those results for comparison ? or should it be based on an average item level to enter the dungeon as the baseline... the devs some time buff seldom used powers in runs and nerf ones that are "too good" thru data gathering of classes and average run completion times
Post edited by kalina311 on
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited August 2017
I will add my feedback based on facts . So you plan to add cc diminishing returns.
halfling :
+2 Dexterity +2 Charisma or +2 Constitution Nimble Reaction: Your small stature and quick movements grant 3% chance to Deflect incoming attacks. Bold: Your fearless nature increases your resistance to Crowd Control effects by 10%.
and tenacity around 42% control resistance.
and the ability scores also give control resist.
I exclude some gear ( i respect some builds are dps focus) like valindra and elven battle.
I believe some powers need a simple adjustment for example courage breaker to respect control resistance. REpel push distance to affected from control resistance. Hunter ranger roots to stop to be continuous cc. THose are some major problems the rest are solved with control resistance.
p.s control strength just have 2 boons with 10% and 15% control strength.
@kalina if you think that disintegrate is the only reason CW is excellent for single target damage then I don't need to further comment your posts regarding our current arguments as you keep proving with each one you don't know your thing as much you think you do nor you seem to have at least a basic understanding of the other classes' dps potential, that leads to writting texts the way you did before so you keep losing crediblity with each post you make hence why I think it's better we don't carry on.
Good CWs aren't as "secret" as you think they are, they're doing great in all 3 platforms.
Top 3 damage dealer's damage output could be left alone and instead getting other classes buffed on a specific area so there's actually balance, TR should be the #1, unmatchable single target damage dealer.
No, it's the same as in pvp, balance needs to be done based on a class true potential and for that it needs to be based on the best players. If for example devs were to rework GWF in pvp they should do it based on Ryu and Icy as they're the ones (or part of the very few ones) that are well aware of the strenghts and limitations of the class, they build their toons based on that knowledge and as such their perfomance is the most reliable thing to base tweaks on. Now if you were to tweak GWF because of/for average players that woudn't end up well for the class.
@mamalion1234 yeah oppresor CW, trapper HR and perma CB TR are major offenders that need to be looked at, a decent increase in their damage (not for exe TR lol) in exchange to getting their cc adjusted to reasonable levels needs to happen once they address cc in mod 12.5 or who knows when.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
@kalina if you think that disintegrate is the only reason CW is excellent for single target damage then I don't need to further comment your posts regarding our current arguments as you keep proving with each one you don't know your thing as much you think you do nor you seem to have at least a basic understanding of the other classes' dps potential, that leads to writting texts the way you did before so you keep losing crediblity with each post you make hence why I think it's better we don't carry on.
Good CWs aren't as "secret" as you think they are, they're doing great in all 3 platforms.
Top 3 damage dealer's damage output could be left alone and instead getting other classes buffed on a specific area so there's actually balance, TR should be the #1, unmatchable single target damage dealer.
No, it's the same as in pvp, balance needs to be done based on a class true potential and for that it needs to be based on the best players. If for example devs were to rework GWF in pvp they should do it based on Ryu and Icy as they're the ones (or part of the very few ones) that are well aware of the strenghts and limitations of the class, they build their toons based on that knowledge and as such their perfomance is the most reliable thing to base tweaks on. Now if you were to tweak GWF because of/for average players that woudn't end up well for the class.
@mamalion1234 yeah oppresor CW, trapper HR and perma CB TR are major offenders that need to be looked at, a decent increase in their damage (not for exe TR lol) in exchange to getting their cc adjusted to reasonable levels needs to happen once they address cc in mod 12.5 or who knows when.
Actually my point is we have already cc resist sources. MY concern is if they add diminshing returns those boons races what point they will have? if they add increased control resist to an already controlled target why he should have the same benefits as someone with full control resistance that is also a question.
Diminishing returns doesn't mean perma cc immune. Cc resist/bonus hopefully should still be effective for mitigating/extending the initial cc hit, thereby lowering/increasing it's duration and effect. What you won't be able to do anymore is cheese cc someone the entire time you are fighting them (ala perma cb TR, opp wizard freeze push spam, and trapper hr perma root stun).
DR is not control resist, it's a counter balance to cc spam when multiple cc powers are applied to a target repeatedly. This will force players to balance out their builds instead of running 20k+ recovery nonsense for the sake of spamming the same cc powers and bringing friends along with the same build to do the same. This is currently what is making a match with cc heavy teams nigh unplayable.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Diminishing returns doesn't mean perma cc immune. Cc resist/bonus hopefully should still be effective for mitigating/extending the initial cc hit, thereby lowering/increasing it's duration and effect. What you won't be able to do anymore is cheese cc someone the entire time you are fighting them (ala perma cb TR, opp wizard freeze push spam, and trapper hr perma root stun).
DR is not control resist, it's a counter balance to cc spam when multiple cc powers are applied to a target repeatedly. This will force players to balance out their builds instead of running 20k+ recovery nonsense for the sake of spamming the same cc powers and bringing friends along with the same build to do the same. This is currently what is making a match with cc heavy teams nigh unplayable.
Players made high recovery actually have to change nothing at all. Recovery benefits and other things than controls.
[Combat (Self)] ZapatistaS deals 155553 (176870) Physical Damage to you with Shadow of Demise.
Hey that's balanced!!!!!!! I better not see or hear your discontent anymore!!! ARRGGHHH!
LOL. Jking.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
When a value shows in the log as XXXX (YYYY), YYYY is the unmitigated base damage (including buffs), and XXXX is the resulting post-mitigated damage (including buffs, debuffs, DR vs. RI, tenacity, and other sources of mitigation).
Party and Self buffs (including power buffs) affect both numbers, and are not reflected as difference between the two.
So if XXXX > YYYY, that necessarily means the target was debuffed (quite a lot)
If XXXX is closer to YYYY than you were expecting, that can only be explained by debuffs, not buffs.
He is low. TR feats do net 50%+ bonus/buff damage to targets below 30% HP.. + if has Orcus set... So that 178K is overdamage... might as well have killed him with a 10K hit at this point. See combat log at 1:12 the first SoD hit for 89538 (140196)
True and true. The entire meta needs a HUGE shakedown because honestly every class is broken on the weak side and on the strong side.. Major point being that Clerics outheal so much and take so little damage, which in turn makes GF/TR burst extremely sought for (*abused) mechanics in this game. But not just clerics.. I had 1800 kills in just two weeks (#LeaderboardResetBug I you so much) and I'm telling you without SoD proc at 1:20 right there, that Pug Panther (helooo btw ) woulda healed right back to full by the time reaching home cap! See, Shadow of Demise is evil and no defending that! But overhealing is not any different..
Frankly, if I was a developer the simplest fix I can think of is give players 1KK HP instead of tenacity and not have this crazy HEAL OR DIE scenario. It trivializes the main fun of character building in this game -- called variety. Yeah having 1 million HP will have issues of its own, but will be so much easier to tweak the powers that do hp-based numbers rather than chase your tails nerfing/buffing healing and damage.
@rgutscheradev is that at least possible to incorporate MORE HP to pvp gear upon losing the tenacity stat in order to set apart hard-earned pvp gear from BiS pve gear, reducing healing effects in PvP along the way? Please please!
Comments
I'm used to the rotations and love the play style and I would say the TR does a bit better on single target but the SW does better on mobs (a combo of PoP & AoH works well for me) it's a Hellbringer Fury build btw with an aoe setup for most content - I moved away from the Damnation/Puppet build when it was 'corrected' a while back.
I know I could get the TRs damage better if I focused my investment on him but 'pound for pound' I know it's better spent on my HR at the moment (or CW, he has a T. Lighting now and wrecks everything in sight).
I believe the HR is where the TR should be, in particular the combat HR. The play style is an aggressive 'in-your-face' version of how the TR plays, I think the Executioner path should do comparable damage and not this SoD 'build-it-up' nonsense.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
If your SW is HB then your TR's singe target damage should be noticeable higher in longer - long boss fights, while difference be not be as high with a SB build, HB is not a match for a good TR for sure. Depending on groups, I'd suggest you to use fiery bolt instead of AoH for trash clearing, it generally is better if you are running with a melt group so you have little to no time to use encounters, in those situations' AoH's slower attack speed can result in lower dps plus dc's and pallies help with cooldown reductions. I see what you use it though and I do it myself when I feel lazy about swtiching powers so for example run KF (feated with MF), PoP (feated with Po9H) and AoH and that works as a decent well rounded rotation, it saves me the annoyance of switching powers every now and then. Like, even if I go try hard more GWF/CW lulz multiproccing monsters and HR with a 75% crit severity ench with virtually no cooldowns and 6 encounter powers will outdps me by quite a bit even if I use the very best powers for each situation xD Yes I know combat HR is supposed to be better aoe but just justified why I'd run PoP (feated with Po9H), KF and AoF.
Yeah true that, HR is one of the overall top 3 damage dealers with GWF and CW the other 2, they definitely have an edge over the rest as others do actually have tradeoffs: great single target damage with respectable aoe/viceversa or okay at both.
I do believe the damage output should be:
Single target: TR, GWF, SW, GF, OP, HR, CW, DC.
AoE: CW, HR, SW, GWF, OP, GF, TR, DC.
This way classes actually have a tradeoff instead of the current nonsense we do have with HR, CW, GWF being gods at both single target and aoe dps o.O
I wonder how both Shadow of Demise and Creeping Death would work in both pve and pvp if they were changed to work by instantly proccing an extra hit based on a percentage of damage from x or y types of powers, with the current system SoD is crazy strong in pvp but is out of context of pve's burst friendly mechanics and elements. Creeping Death has it much much worse in PVE (it take way too long to deal full damage so almost never can actually benefit the SW properly) and in PVP tenacity reduces its damage to laughable amounts.
they already have a trade off
they probably is one of the best balanced class in the game at the moment as far as feat tree and path versatility all paths are pretty good for pvp and pve
cw good at single target and AOE just lol dude LOL
any class is good at both single target and aoe fully pumped up with rank 12 bonding etc ...
there are so many sources of power that are independent of class your proposal would have to remove all of it ... not going to happen
[Combat (Self)] Snöwbrö deals 117540 (194386) Physical Damage to you with Shadow of Demise.
[Tell] From [Kid Cleep@darth132]: [1:32] [Combat (Self)] Snöwbrö deals 108310 (209029) Physical Damage to you with Shadow of Demise.
Sir after the recent patch
Shadow of demise is outright broken on TR in pvp now as I am sure you now know and were probably flooded with messages about.
great you buffed shocking execution after some thought and testing great.. however i do not think these same play testers reviews the shadows of demise changes in pvp
please be agile in review and making adjustment and changes pronto
we need quick small definitive changes / reactions from you when something breaks balance this bad
P.S this is way more broken then shocking ever was .. I mean you cant even dodge its effects bro
there is no counter play its cheesy as you know what ...and yes you admitted you play a Tr ; D
this further leads to and solidifies my point that power tables/ abilities should work completely differently in pvp
you already coded many powers that do / have dual effects pvp vs pve
this one is a prime candidate for dual coding sir
we dont want the pveers / pvps whining and vice versa
you dont want a damed if you do damed if you done scenario as i am sure often happens
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1233758/trs-feat-shadow-of-demise-has-a-bug
As for the damage output thing, I simply stated it as an opinion and from a balance perspective it does make sense that classes actually have tradeoffs. As it stands, GWF, HR and CW are above the rest in overall perfomance. Top tier single target damage and top tier aoe damage, nice tradeoff there! xD
The thing ins't whether classes can do both aoe/single dps but, for balance's sake, it makes sense that classes should excell at 1 role and be inferior at another, as your class is one of the 3 current sacred cows dps-wise of course you'll deny the fact CW, GWF and HR are beasts at both aoe and single target damage, meanwhile the other class do actually have weaknesses which of course doesn't mean they can't do well at aoe/single target dps (SW and TR do have their disavantages at either though)
So no, using "rank 12 bondings etc..." doesn't change the fact that other class can't achieve the overall perfomance the 3 sacred cows currently do.
I don't think is worth it to carry on with our arguments but after reading your other post I'd like to ask you something about it as it is always good to know different points of view of a common topic as in, I already know opinions on SoD from other classes.
Edit: Nevermind, I had forgot to check the link of your post but I eventually did. I'd like to know the original poster's build, it is crazy he got hit like that by SoD even though he had several things on mitigating incoming damage.
@rgutscheradev is the new SoD working as intended in pvp considering the changes you did to piercing damage? Perhaps you can check SoD again and tell us whether that's how you intend it to be? Dodgeless class that also happen not to a have block mechanic may be in the similar situation GWF was when arp resist was removed on preview, that new SoD could cause serious survability issues to them so you may need to address that. If that's how you intend that capstone to be though then let's see what players come up with to counter that
And my top-tier CW contacts died.
Q_Q
tho yours suggestion are well thought out and written there is limited budget and staff as you know and its not mod 1
you cant have classes excel at single target / vs aoe when there is pvp and pve builds .. and trash mobs vs boss and people that want to solo vs group up ..and limited dev resources
same argument goes for self healing vs no self healing
total class re work is pipe dream and not going to happen .. and besides we have been advocating smaller micro changes in the forums and tweaks done more frequently per class .. vs doing nothing
P.S I think I will pass on the Cw training lol im good thxs
Just to get all the information out there! Hopefully this helps -
1. There is a counter. BiS TR already instinctively know how to avoid the big Shadow of Demise bursts by dodging the attacks leading up to the hit. This is because SoD calculates all pre-mitigated damage but not "dodged" attacks. Say, if the TR is doing a daily rotation that stacks up 100K demise, dodging the daily (often Bloodbath) is doable enough and lowers the proc damage considerably. That being said, stacking infinite stamina as being argued previously in this thread is a counter. When everybody catches up it will be a lot more manageable.
2. Burst damage is still definitely a problem in PvP, and I'm not defending the fringe cases when this power can still do upwards of 200K in damage. It happens to heavily debuffed target or when two TR's proc demise at the same time to one target. But in a world where Paladin can have 1.5K kills in leaderboard, GF can do 150K+ bullcharge, TANKS!, please consider how 100K is not balanced for a full DPS TR class.
If anything, TR needs a huge tone down to survivability. Damage may or may not be right where it should be, but in the scheme of things it's fulfilling the advertised role. Here is a question put forward in the other thread. Please do correct me if I am wrong, but it has always been the intended mechanism for piercing to compute damage before any mitigation as stated by the tooltip. This is how HR Piercing Blades always worked. By calculating mitigated damage, as Demise did before, and doing 50% of that again as "piercing" damage, it's not piercing so much as just 50% bonus damage. Also now, if you reverted to that mode it will become double penalized by Tenacity, leaving it worse than it was in the first place.
In PvE, we have reached a consensus among the best TRs that Shadow of Demise and Duelist Flurry take too long to become effective, that enemies are oftentimes dead before we can see a single Shadow of Demise hit. Please take this into account if you ought to rebalance this feat yet again. One way is to change the way this feat deals damage from dealing burst damage after 6 seconds, to spreading the piercing damage over the duration, also much like how Piercing Blades work.
Thank you!
There's a good reason @rjc9000 refused to get you to run with those CWs, devs may come up with nerfs if seeing what they can do.
@rustlord you forgot that not all classes can dodge so "dodging bloodbath" is not an option for some of them.
The only reason Cw appear to excel at single target is cause disintigrate has an extremely low cool down
and does over damage to targets below a certain threshold of health essential tabbulating more damage to the players score then it took to kill the enemy ... also not counting the other debuffs on the target \
most single target cws spells are not even used in pvp or pve or are completely useless in either mode the imprisonment spell comes to mind
P.s I dont need anybodies charity to form a group or to "run the the best " lol thxs tho
what you dont think the devs can see the completion time of such players damage done by power etc ?
so single target cw damage should be nerfed based on those few super secret players that are too good for me to run with ? LOL
Trs only good at boss fights? ok so run a group to the end .. then switch kick players for only Trs ? good class balance there we already had this problem with favoured classes and still do ...oh how nice of you you humbly ONLY want tr to excel at boss fights lol so tr wanting to complete thier dailies with low gear score and solo are then at a disadvantage then facing the packs of mobs then cause all thier AOE power now are bad / reduced in effectiveness so now they are "forced to group up" can you see where it a slipper slope then with a class only excelling at one thing and one aspect of the game playstyle
no one class should exclusively excel or not excel at anything (aoe vs single target )that is what the class feats and paragons are to customise the class to your playstyle that where the devs need to tweak things and make other feats tree more viable in more classes so they are not piggeon holed into one roll as you are suggesting
also whats the point of having different switchable specs if a class can then only excel at one thing.. asside from switching gear or the need for pvp / pve mode ..
do you actually think the game should be balanced around the 1% bis characters that can be the execpetion to any rule on any point we chose to bring up and we should use those results for comparison ? or should it be based on an average item level to enter the dungeon as the baseline... the devs some time buff seldom used powers in runs and nerf ones that are "too good" thru data gathering of classes and average run completion times
halfling :
+2 Dexterity
+2 Charisma or +2 Constitution
Nimble Reaction: Your small stature and quick movements grant 3% chance to Deflect incoming attacks.
Bold: Your fearless nature increases your resistance to Crowd Control effects by 10%.
and tenacity around 42% control resistance.
and the ability scores also give control resist.
I exclude some gear ( i respect some builds are dps focus) like valindra and elven battle.
I believe some powers need a simple adjustment for example courage breaker to respect control resistance.
REpel push distance to affected from control resistance.
Hunter ranger roots to stop to be continuous cc.
THose are some major problems the rest are solved with control resistance.
p.s control strength just have 2 boons with 10% and 15% control strength.
Good CWs aren't as "secret" as you think they are, they're doing great in all 3 platforms.
Top 3 damage dealer's damage output could be left alone and instead getting other classes buffed on a specific area so there's actually balance, TR should be the #1, unmatchable single target damage dealer.
No, it's the same as in pvp, balance needs to be done based on a class true potential and for that it needs to be based on the best players. If for example devs were to rework GWF in pvp they should do it based on Ryu and Icy as they're the ones (or part of the very few ones) that are well aware of the strenghts and limitations of the class, they build their toons based on that knowledge and as such their perfomance is the most reliable thing to base tweaks on. Now if you were to tweak GWF because of/for average players that woudn't end up well for the class.
@mamalion1234 yeah oppresor CW, trapper HR and perma CB TR are major offenders that need to be looked at, a decent increase in their damage (not for exe TR lol) in exchange to getting their cc adjusted to reasonable levels needs to happen once they address cc in mod 12.5 or who knows when.
MY concern is if they add diminshing returns those boons races what point they will have?
if they add increased control resist to an already controlled target why he should have the same benefits as someone with full control resistance that is also a question.
We don't have Arpen resistance buff effect in IWD pvp areas.
Diminishing returns doesn't mean perma cc immune. Cc resist/bonus hopefully should still be effective for mitigating/extending the initial cc hit, thereby lowering/increasing it's duration and effect. What you won't be able to do anymore is cheese cc someone the entire time you are fighting them (ala perma cb TR, opp wizard freeze push spam, and trapper hr perma root stun).
DR is not control resist, it's a counter balance to cc spam when multiple cc powers are applied to a target repeatedly. This will force players to balance out their builds instead of running 20k+ recovery nonsense for the sake of spamming the same cc powers and bringing friends along with the same build to do the same. This is currently what is making a match with cc heavy teams nigh unplayable.
LOL. Jking.
Question, when that damage is done without a debuff, what's your reasoning then?
Go to 1:12 and stop at 1:20 and see a 178k SoD. I know Panther's just a pug, but still.
When a value shows in the log as XXXX (YYYY), YYYY is the unmitigated base damage (including buffs), and XXXX is the resulting post-mitigated damage (including buffs, debuffs, DR vs. RI, tenacity, and other sources of mitigation).
Party and Self buffs (including power buffs) affect both numbers, and are not reflected as difference between the two.
So if XXXX > YYYY, that necessarily means the target was debuffed (quite a lot)
If XXXX is closer to YYYY than you were expecting, that can only be explained by debuffs, not buffs.
Frankly, if I was a developer the simplest fix I can think of is give players 1KK HP instead of tenacity and not have this crazy HEAL OR DIE scenario. It trivializes the main fun of character building in this game -- called variety. Yeah having 1 million HP will have issues of its own, but will be so much easier to tweak the powers that do hp-based numbers rather than chase your tails nerfing/buffing healing and damage.
@rgutscheradev is that at least possible to incorporate MORE HP to pvp gear upon losing the tenacity stat in order to set apart hard-earned pvp gear from BiS pve gear, reducing healing effects in PvP along the way? Please please!