Sadly, this is not how Neverwinter currently works. The meta in Neverwinter usually shifts because classes are nerfed/buffed. Perfect imbalance means the meta can shift by itself, or when the task or goal changes. Generally speaking when something in Neverwinter is better, it is so drastically better that it takes over and becomes meta, and remains meta until nerfed, since it is just that good.
For a perfect imbalance to work, the meta needs to shift without nerfs or buffs being used. Maybe a class is better at single target damage while another is good at AoE and a dungeon requires very good single target damage dealer for the first encounter, and massive AoE damage dealer for the next. You can not just bring one of them if setup properly. The single target damage dealer cannot deal good AoE damage, and the AoE damage dealer cannot deal good single target damage. If their roles overlap, they get replaced.
Now are these two classes "balanced"? No one probably creates a bigger advantage than the other, but could they both be useful at the same time? Sure, maybe even both required for XYZ dungeon.
A theoretical example of what roles might look like in NW for a few classes, and how there could be challenges that require them for the role (or create a huge advantage for having their role there):
TR (executioner): Stealth Unbeatable single target DPS Poor AoE damage Can see traps
GWF (destroyer): Good AoE damage Decent single target damage Tankier than most DPS Runs quickly
DC (virtuous): Heals Shields Damage Buffs Enemy Debuffs
GF (protector): Movement Speed Buffs Tanky Can pull enemy attention
CW (oppressor): Controls enemies Good at setting up a defense around a location Good AoE damage Poor single target damage
The challenges and the classes required to complete them efficiently:
Single target boss fights: TR, GF, and DC
Minefield TR or GF+DC
Hoard of enemies GF, and GWF/CW
Key behind a group of sleeping guards TR or GWF/CW
Guard a location from a hoard CW and DC
Escape a rolling boulder or chasing enemy GF or GWF
Prevent a harmless enemy from reaching a location CW
Save a prisoner who is being beaten by a guard DC and TR
By mixing up different challenges with perfectly imbalanced classes, they can then change the meta without needing nerfs/buffs. Sadly most of the classes fill most of the roles right now, so this isn't possible. The video I posted relates more to a pvp aspect game where a cyclical meta can form.
Hello all! * Empowered DC Astral Shield: yes, it's really insane in PvP. We have a fix coming in soon where it gives 1% per level (instead of the current 3% per level) in PvP. It's still really good in PvP. We also slightly reduced the duration on it (10s to 8s) in both PvE and PvP, because the uptime was just too much (it was way too easy to get it to 100% uptime).
ouch consider you only nerf where it reach the absourd i guess its ok. i play cleric and i admit its a game breaker
if you nerf AS you should check Rightous in PVP, currently its the only thing they have. healing depression is big and DoT is weak. you should buff the damage abit. i play for 4 years with more than 2K matches and still didn't finish the PVP campaign. not even the Domination part.
It seems it's harder for other people to see it from another's perspective. There is a simple fix for this.
Make it groups of 8 instead of 5 for pvp and pve and increase the difficulty in pve.
Then make it so every group needs 1 of each class to play and you won't have three TRs and DC that is dps and a GF that can't tank. By making it so you have all classes playing it will be easier to see what is hurting the group and what needs adjusted. If you see in reports of paingiver charts on average hrs doing little to help the group buff them or if the GWF in a certain dungeon is out dpsing everyone else and shouldn't nerf them.
This will also allow everyone to play no matter what class they like. This kind of sounds like asking my kid to be able to play in the big game even though he sucks but it's true some classes suck and they shouldn't. Until the devs and other players can see the pitfalls the weaker classes actually deal with we can't have a balance of any kind that will benefit the individual or the group.
So let's make the whole group suffer and then they fix it(as they should) to make it better. We already have people ticked off so let's at least make an effort to fix it now to make the playing experience better in the future.
To whoever disagreed with post please post feedback as to why. Just wanting to know what is wrong with my suggestion compared to how things are done now.
I also hope that anyone who is disagreeing with anyone's posts has posted their own constructive ideas and are actually contributing to the betterment of this discussion and game. If you have please direct me to your suggestion so I can see and support your ideas as you must have better plans for executing a proper fix to this broken game.
Not upset just wanting to see things from your perspective and if I agree and others do as well I will support you because something needs to be done. We have dealt with this stuff for too long and we need a resolution.
To whoever disagreed with post please post feedback as to why. Just wanting to know what is wrong with my suggestion compared to how things are done now.
I also hope that anyone who is disagreeing with anyone's posts has posted their own constructive ideas and are actually contributing to the betterment of this discussion and game. If you have please direct me to your suggestion so I can see and support your ideas as you must have better plans for executing a proper fix to this broken game.
Not upset just wanting to see things from your perspective and if I agree and others do as well I will support you because something needs to be done. We have dealt with this stuff for too long and we need a resolution.
I didn't click it, but I disagree with your idea.
I think that given the resources available, re-tuning all of the content for 8 players would take an immense amount of effort, and would likely result in a variety of problems that would need to be addressed by mechanics changes (stuff like buffs scaling multiplicativeley, and certain interactions between classes that would need to be examined). It would also make forming groups much harder, especially for content that already requires a lot of waiting.
And I don't see any benefit to forcing rainbow parties. To the contrary, in my opinion it would be needlessly limiting for folks who are interested in running non-rainbow parties. There are plenty of examples of classes that can have different builds that can jive together in one party (DC, OP, HR, and CW to name a few). I disagree with the notion of limiting player creativity, especially in the name of "make the whole group suffer and then they fix it" because due to limited resources we will all be suffering a very long time.
GF doesn't have good survivability. GF has shield, without it its more squishy than a GWF or a lifesteal stacking SW or HR. OP is an example of a class that has good survivability.
I skipped a few pages, but I like that you are looking at PvP a bit, it's something that should be fun and currently is not. The main reason I think it is not as fun as it could be, is because of the great disparity of character strength.
Example, my close to BiS PvE toon goes in and wrecks the lower level toons, sorta fun for me but i'm sure it is not for them and it gets boring quickly...then I too get wrecked by the more serious PvP players, the premade groups and the juicers, probably fun for them but not for me.
The current PvP match has almost nothing at all to do with 'skill', it is about tweaking your toon to near exploit levels with stacking of things that were probably never meant to be stacked to see if you can go wreck the ones that did not stack or max out their toons yet....
I would much rather see a bare knuckles style PvP and would love to see the potions consumption limited or removed completely from the game, they trivialize the content in their current state...what are we down to 9 minute FBI's now...
I am unclear how the private Q helps at all, unless it let's me have a close and fun match while others are distracted elsewhere, I don't think people need yet another testing ground for PvP powers... Honestly you should scrap the 5v5 public Q and leave solo Q only and give Private Q rewards only one per day.
Where/ what exactly is this lag free/ pet free testing ground for pvp you speak of sir ?? that we dont need another *sigh*
perhaps you should not skip and skim posts(by your own admission ) and read why the devs actually implemented it (private Qs) there are a lots of changes coming to mod 12b pvp and they need proper feedback
a 10 v 10 preset match in guantlegyrm is fun(also not to get stomped ) and has nothing to do with "TESTING POWERS"
-10000000000 to your suggestion to scrap the public Q
Quote from you
"I am unclear how the private Q helps at all, unless it let's me have a close and fun match while others..."
Bingo !!!!! a close fun match ... ? now why would anyone want that *major sarcasm*
so in summary you want to scrap the public Q and dont see a need for private Q
I got news for you latest dev stream hinted about more pvp maps that are ready in the wings where does that fall into your theories >?
I am not suggesting there is no lag and as you know pets can be summoned or unsummoned in many areas outside of the Pvp maps, there are places you can PvP other than the domination Q, I am sure you know where they are and I should not have to list them.
I did not skim anything, I read several pages, every word in every single post on each page and then skipped ahead a few pages as the conversation seemed to head to it's normal place.
I did read what the dev wrote, they said PvP needs love and private Q is a down payment on the needs. Perhaps we took different meanings from that statement. I don't think any amount of testing elite pvp builds in a private area will make PvP for the PvE player a better experience. I believe there needs to be a way for more players, the casual, the toe dippers to have a fun experience in PvP and I think my belief is shared by many, even people that don't post on this forum.
I agree that guantlegrym has been some of the most fun matches I have played, and it was fairly easy to build two teams and public Q for guant, I suspect there were no other groups playing the 10v10. The fun however came from the matches being fairly even, with players of a like mindset, play progressions and gear.
Maybe my statements about the Public and Private were not as clear as they could be. I would not scrap both, I need the public Q for the rewards and ideally I would like to earn these rewards while having some fun. Even better would be a close, maybe even a challenging match, which can not really happen if the gear or character progression are not fairly close (we use IL as one measurement). I would like not to be placed in groupings with hugely mismatched teams, if even 1 person on a team is significantly lower than the rest of the team it can be a huge mismatch.. Several times we have discussed different Q strategies such as IL Q's but they don't exist.
The only new Q systems are the solo Q and the private Q. I enjoyed the solo Q until people figure out how to wreck that experience too. My point was, maybe the highly competitive PvP players would have more fun with a private Q so some of us that are not about some leaderboard could have a way to get in the other map, have some fun and maybe earn a reward for a win or a cap here and there. I would be fine with other options as well, maybe move the leader board to the private Q and create some sort of competitive brackets over there...
I am not sure I am making a theory or even a hypothesis. I am merely sharing my thoughts on what I feel is the core issue of PvP which is a large gap in character strength that are all mixed in the same matches. I think we need a way to fix that along with all the talk about this power and that power. I would be happy for new maps, it seems like something that should be very easy to do, although maybe it is hard. I hope the maps have more space to spread out, or other options like more than 3 pins, or different team size etc...
TR - Sun: 16000 IL OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
GF doesn't have good survivability. GF has shield, without it its more squishy than a GWF or a lifesteal stacking SW or HR. OP is an example of a class that has good survivability.
How often does a "good" Gf forget to put up his shield ?????? how often is he "without it "
nuff said the dev is correct and even one of the top GFs in the game (that knows what he is talking about) said the same thing GF survivability is over the top
would you like the quote ?
perhaps you want to change the definition of what survivability means ??
so the gf should be balanced based on people not putting up thier sheild/ playing poorly making even more over power for people that do use thier shield and shield feats properly ? lol
GF doesn't have good survivability. GF has shield, without it its more squishy than a GWF or a lifesteal stacking SW or HR. OP is an example of a class that has good survivability.
How often does a "good" Gf forget to put up his shield
perhaps you want to change the definition of what survivability means ??
A good GF puts up his shield for every attack. That is how he gains AP best. AP is extremely useful in many ways.
Saying that GF has good survivability when your hits are being blocked is no different than saying that SW has good survivability when he is dodging your attacks. SW has teleport as a damage avoiding ability, GF has shield as damage avoiding ability. In both cases you have to work around that classes ability when fighting that class.
Survivability comes into play when you land a proper hit. Meaning you're not being dodged or blocked. When that is the case, GF cannot take as many proper hits as the classes I've mentioned before, even less since tenacity rework.
Is Shield a strong damage avoiding ability? Sure. And I'd be completely fine with it being nerfed, like its duration being decreased, if that meant I could take as many hits as a GWF without it.
1
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited August 2017
I Gf can hold up his shield far longer then any class can dodge/ teleport making it not even an immunity frame but nearly a perma block ..... ....shield is not the only factor in determining overall survivability either it was just the lowest hanging fruit to use as an example
we can keep changing what the definition of survivability is and moving the goal posts too
Ps a SW DOES not have teleport per say lol .... they wish they did and they can not keep sliping indefinitely waiting to react to your attack when you are open whereas a gf can be patient and wait all day for you to make a mistake and dps counter that is extreme survivbility
survivability does not only come into play(for the attacker or defender ? ) when you land a "proper hit " and we can expand more on of phrasing thing to suit your examples
survivablility has to do with the big pictures powers and feats and gear synergy over all not just "HITTING or being hit"
A gf is also a less gear intensive class to play and there for is also more survivable based on that fact
@kalina311 Then you should be more specific calling out for nerfs. You think shield is too strong? Okay so say that. Saying GF is too strong so to hell with them isn't going to help with balancing. It will only result in infinite loop of favor of the month classes.
1
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
People gear to get better, there needs to be a source of income to the game, the game doesn't run on esthetic visuals, probably in the future we will some kind of diminishing influence of stats, which is not a bad thing in pve if content gets adapted and surely not in pvp since devs can control the range of builds better. But one thing i do agree is removing guild boons, overloads it's fine, most guilds can purchase from alliance guilds, when it comes to boons there are people with for example defense, incoming healing and life steal boons, none of those can compare to HP.
AT least a guild boon created after hard work from guild members unlike some classes buff by standing in party ( effort?) feats like terrifying in insight
GF doesn't have good survivability. GF has shield, without it its more squishy than a GWF or a lifesteal stacking SW or HR. OP is an example of a class that has good survivability.
How often does a "good" Gf forget to put up his shield ?????? how often is he "without it "
nuff said the dev is correct and even one of the top GFs in the game (that knows what he is talking about) said the same thing GF survivability is over the top
would you like the quote ?
perhaps you want to change the definition of what survivability means ??
so the gf should be balanced based on people not putting up thier sheild/ playing poorly making even more over power for people that do use thier shield and shield feats properly ? lol
The current flawed design of the GF has players thinking it is a DPS class. They will defend using it as one, and use alternative facts to make us think it is a weak and squishy DPS class, instead of a broken overpowered tank class. Not really for nerfs, but a bit of reality is in order here. At least change all queues to accept GFs and DCs as DPS, so dedicated support can fill the tank and heal slots.
@kalina311 Then you should be more specific calling out for nerfs. You think shield is too strong? Okay so say that. Saying GF is too strong so to hell with them isn't going to help with balancing. It will only result in infinite loop of favor of the month classes.
dude lol where exactly in my post am i calling out for nerfs and then you go on to paraphrase and colorize my post as if i said the hell with GFs omg someone is salty
I had problems with the inaccuracies and exaggerations and terminology in your post and asked /was wondering about different views on survivibility ...your example were poor at best
I am all about multiple perspectives if you check out most of my posts and reasons why people might perceive imbalance with any class or statements made
I dont even know where to start with you so i wont feed the troll
so the gf should be balanced based on people not putting up thier sheild/ playing poorly making even more over power for people that do use thier shield and shield feats properly ? lol
I find it amusing that guys who can dodge indefinitely (therefore negating 100% damage) due to extreme stamina gain do complain about GF blocking indefinitely (mitigating 80% incoming damage) for the very same reason, like "oh nerf GF stamina regen but keep mine through the roof trololololol!"
Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
so the gf should be balanced based on people not putting up thier sheild/ playing poorly making even more over power for people that do use thier shield and shield feats properly ? lol
Its called asking a question and making an assertion based on the question .. in order to have a discussion or intelligent debate that is what the forum is for ..you can insert whatever words you want into your own mouth
I asked the Question SHOULD and there was a question mark at the end !!! and it was in itself a response to the lowest hanging fruit item of gf survivability (shield blocking ) and not the only one
you made the assertion that without his shield he is squishy then a gwf direct quote ...
"GF doesn't have good survivability. GF has shield, without it its more squishy than a GWF "
then I asked should the gf be balanced based on not holding his shield up ? I dont know the answer yet either way thats why it is called a debate
then went on the state the devs and other quotes i can find from top gf stating that they have good survivability
because someone does not know how to play their class and correct terminology/powers.. should balance be based on that ? (note this is also a question btw nothing you said )
I find it amusing that guys who can dodge indefinitely (therefore negating 100% damage) due to extreme stamina gain do complain about GF blocking indefinitely (mitigating 80% incoming damage) for the very same reason, like "oh nerf GF stamina regen but keep mine through the roof trololololol!"
Let us not forget that this "extreme" stamina gain you talk about is not class-specific but rather due to certain gearing possibilities that allow you to dodge very often. In fact those very same gear possibilities allow a GF to have his damage mitigator up indefinitely. I won't even talk about immunity to control.
"GF doesn't have good survivability. GF has shield, without it its more squishy than a GWF "
then I asked should the gf be balanced based on not holding his shield up ? I dont know the answer yet either way thats why it is called a debate
Let me put it more clearly then: A GF without shield cant take as many hits as a GWF without sprint or other classes I meantioned without their respective abilities. I never thought explaining this would take several posts.
I never said GF should be balanced based on not holding a shield either. I don't know where you're getting this question from. All I'm saying is a tank class should be able to take more direct hits than a dps class for me to say that it has good survivability.
If you don't count the shield, GF has only two encounters that boos survivability: Iron Warrior, which has laughably long cast time that it is impossible to use during any fight, and pointless only giving 30% damage resistance with silly uptime. The other is Lunging Strike that gives 50% dr for a mere 3 seconds. Keep in mind that damage resistance is not as effective as it is in PvE either, making both of these boosts fairly pointless. Then people wonder why GFs are opting for dps.
Compared to other survivability encounters like shield of CW or impossible to catch of TR or vampiric embrace of SW and several others encounters of other classes, what GF has is pretty much useless.
I find it amusing that guys who can dodge indefinitely (therefore negating 100% damage) due to extreme stamina gain do complain about GF blocking indefinitely (mitigating 80% incoming damage) for the very same reason, like "oh nerf GF stamina regen but keep mine through the roof trololololol!"
Let us not forget that this "extreme" stamina gain you talk about is not class-specific but rather due to certain gearing possibilities that allow you to dodge very often. In fact those very same gear possibilities allow a GF to have his damage mitigator up indefinitely. I won't even talk about immunity to control.
@nezdin#5514 sir I pointed out the vile hypocrisy with which people call for nerfs when they're benefitting from the very same things. I really see no point whatsoever in your post, you pretty much said the same I did, just with other words= very high stamina regen allows you to dodge/keep shield up indefinitely which boosts survability and grants cc control.
In the dps main's logic it is fine to dodge indefinitely but blocking the same way isn't.
Dodging is brain dead easy and for some attacks you can "dodge" towards the source of damage taking how much damage? oh yes, zero, cero, nothing, nada
SW is going to AoH you, "dodge" towards him= 100% damage mitigation and 100% cc resist.
GF is going to bullcharge you and you have your back turned on him, "dodge" backwards= 100% damage mitigation and 100% cc resist (don't come up with the "I don't have eyes on my back" argument, you guys can have massive field of view enabling a few settings)
Now for blocking you actually have to try position yourself so it actually works, getting hit from the sides or behind results in no damage mitigation nor cc resist whatsoever, see?
SW is going to AoH you, block in the wrong direction and you get proned and take damage.
GWF with very high mobility got around your shield and hit you while it was up= you take full damage from the blow.
Now against several enemies:
Enemies attack you at once when you dodged, result? no damage taken nor cc effects whatsoever
Enemies attack you and 1 or more get around your shield: if their toons are properly played and built, you're dead meat gg
You're wrong about class specific stuff by the way, not alll classes have stamina regen boosts in heroic/paragon feats.
Of course 99.99% dodging machines class users will disagree and those who don't have them (or not a true one, like SW) may see my arguments without blind hatred lol
As I said on another post, TR's are currently a jack of all trades but do not excel in any area (in pve).
They are not welcome as primary dps, buffer or controller - which means they are not welcome in most groups. Groups want HDPS & De/Buffers. Tanks & Healers respec to de/buffers at endgame. This leaves the TR with nothing to offer.
They need a serious rework, modelled on the Combat HR where Stealth triggers class mechanics instead of stance shifting.
Being overpowered in pvp is all down to piercing damage - if PD was reduced by Tenacity, other classes wouldn't be complaining about them.
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Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
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Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
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Being overpowered in pvp is all down to piercing damage - if PD was reduced by Tenacity, other classes wouldn't be complaining about them.
Piercing damage is reduced by Tenacity... still complaining about them.
They only thing that Tenacity mitigating piercing damage did was nerf the damage of all piercing powers/feats by about 40% (more in the cast of SE), and then allow them to benefit from debuffs.
Sure, you are right that all classes have access to high level stamina regen gearing options and I am re-iterating it. But comparing dodges and shield is very different. Dodging is not brain dead - in fact a mistimed dodge can be lethal. Even more complicated is the fact that certain powers cannot be dodged or are very hard to dodge to say the least. Combine one of these control powers with a damage power and there you have your hit. A shield on tank classes does allow to be immune to these powers where dodge-classes are vulnerable. So they are not so easily compared. Yet another complication is that one class which you refer to implicitly with a dodge, the CW, suffers even more from enemies with Elven Battle which not only gives stamina regen but also seems to dispel chill stacks, which is the best way to land damage. This may have been fixed ( does anyone have any news on this ? ) although I am not aware of it if it is the case. Also, feat in CW tree that has a chance to give some stamina back only works in close quarters and best against classes that do small continuous hits in melee range like TRs - not useful against all classes.
They are two different mechanics. I happen to think that one has more advantages than the other, especially when combined with endless stamina gearing, for the reasons I described above. You are free to disagree and that is fine. One thing is for sure though and that is while efficient shielding takes practice and effort to master, the exact same thing can be said about dodging efficiently. Anyone can dodge mindlessly (I am sure that I can be accused that in fact!) just as anyone can use their shield mindlessly too. In fact, if you observe CWs that play their class well you will notice that they preserve their dodges for when they are most needed - in between they try to create the distance they require by jumping around. No room for mindless dodging there!
Finally, I have no idea about "you guys can have massive field of view enabling a few settings" - but would like to know more. Perhaps you can share this with me and others who also do not know.
Being overpowered in pvp is all down to piercing damage - if PD was reduced by Tenacity, other classes wouldn't be complaining about them.
Piercing damage is reduced by Tenacity... still complaining about them.
They only thing that Tenacity mitigating piercing damage did was nerf the damage of all piercing powers/feats by about 40% (more in the cast of SE), and then allow them to benefit from debuffs.
Well that's again a balancing issue on piercing. I'm not a dedicated TR player, I play all classes but my main is a Paladin and CW/DC are 2nd & 3rd.
My point is that as someone who has a TR, GWF & SW of equal IL (11.5k) and all of them have the same amount of boons and very similar gear, the TR does noticeably less damage in 5 man content (GWF does the most by far, then SW).
My newest character is an HR Trapper, Even though he's very new, I've put some work into him so he's now 12.2k and nearing the same amount of boon completion but by comparison he's an absolute killer - easily keeping up with everyone of comparable IL regardless of class.
I do agree with the perspective that the TR is being ruined in PvE due to improperly balanced mechanics in PvP. The answer is not to kill the class due to misplaced resentment, but to isolate the problem and fix it whilst also fixing the issues in PvE.
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Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
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Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited August 2017
Righteous is tough to play in pvp, true but when it comes to bring a player down it's the boss, i've played against tanky righteous, without AS and i was not able to kill, it was just a matter of time until a teamate came and i was dead meat.
Sooo in order ont to carry on saying the same thing with different words let's just agree that either everyone can have massive stamina gain or no one can which is my point, you dodge guys want to do it forever but to get GF stamina nerfed to the ground and that's blatantly hypocritical. Shield is great for 1v1, add 1 or more players (or a cc or burst capable class) and it's very easy to counter but hey, people don't want to think, perhaps they want to fight GF as it's a PVE npc and complain they get killed. Also, TR, DC, OP and GWF can counter a GF rather easily if played correctly but eh, why should people have to think? there should be a "1 shot any class in pvp with any power, 50/50 charges" token in the zen market.
As for your comment regarding Elven dispelling chill stacks, I think that's supposed to have been fixed for some time now already and wait, doesn't CW retain immunity frames still after the teleport animation even if just briefly? Either way, you can adjust your playstyle so dodge still can save you vs more than 1 oponent, that's not the case with shield, try to 1v2+ against players of the calibre of @saiyajin and @icyphish and I guarantee you that the moment one gets around your shield you get melted as without the shield GF is very very squishy + an easy prey for cc.
As for the field of view thing, I meant how you guys can costomize how far or close your character is on the screen + how much you can see pretty much, that allows you to see if any player is trying to attack you from behind, if you didn't know this already I suggest you to give it a try, it certainly helps. We don't have that luxury on consoles, the camera is super close to the character so if you are fighting someone it's very easy for another player to get you from behind.
Comments
For a perfect imbalance to work, the meta needs to shift without nerfs or buffs being used. Maybe a class is better at single target damage while another is good at AoE and a dungeon requires very good single target damage dealer for the first encounter, and massive AoE damage dealer for the next. You can not just bring one of them if setup properly. The single target damage dealer cannot deal good AoE damage, and the AoE damage dealer cannot deal good single target damage. If their roles overlap, they get replaced.
Now are these two classes "balanced"? No one probably creates a bigger advantage than the other, but could they both be useful at the same time? Sure, maybe even both required for XYZ dungeon.
A theoretical example of what roles might look like in NW for a few classes, and how there could be challenges that require them for the role (or create a huge advantage for having their role there):
TR (executioner):
Stealth
Unbeatable single target DPS
Poor AoE damage
Can see traps
GWF (destroyer):
Good AoE damage
Decent single target damage
Tankier than most DPS
Runs quickly
DC (virtuous):
Heals
Shields
Damage Buffs
Enemy Debuffs
GF (protector):
Movement Speed Buffs
Tanky
Can pull enemy attention
CW (oppressor):
Controls enemies
Good at setting up a defense around a location
Good AoE damage
Poor single target damage
The challenges and the classes required to complete them efficiently:
Single target boss fights:
TR, GF, and DC
Minefield
TR or GF+DC
Hoard of enemies
GF, and GWF/CW
Key behind a group of sleeping guards
TR or GWF/CW
Guard a location from a hoard
CW and DC
Escape a rolling boulder or chasing enemy
GF or GWF
Prevent a harmless enemy from reaching a location
CW
Save a prisoner who is being beaten by a guard
DC and TR
By mixing up different challenges with perfectly imbalanced classes, they can then change the meta without needing nerfs/buffs. Sadly most of the classes fill most of the roles right now, so this isn't possible. The video I posted relates more to a pvp aspect game where a cyclical meta can form.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
consider you only nerf where it reach the absourd i guess its ok.
i play cleric and i admit its a game breaker
if you nerf AS you should check Rightous in PVP, currently its the only thing they have. healing depression is big and DoT is weak.
you should buff the damage abit.
i play for 4 years with more than 2K matches and still didn't finish the PVP campaign.
not even the Domination part.
Make it groups of 8 instead of 5 for pvp and pve and increase the difficulty in pve.
Then make it so every group needs 1 of each class to play and you won't have three TRs and DC that is dps and a GF that can't tank. By making it so you have all classes playing it will be easier to see what is hurting the group and what needs adjusted. If you see in reports of paingiver charts on average hrs doing little to help the group buff them or if the GWF in a certain dungeon is out dpsing everyone else and shouldn't nerf them.
This will also allow everyone to play no matter what class they like. This kind of sounds like asking my kid to be able to play in the big game even though he sucks but it's true some classes suck and they shouldn't. Until the devs and other players can see the pitfalls the weaker classes actually deal with we can't have a balance of any kind that will benefit the individual or the group.
So let's make the whole group suffer and then they fix it(as they should) to make it better. We already have people ticked off so let's at least make an effort to fix it now to make the playing experience better in the future.
I also hope that anyone who is disagreeing with anyone's posts has posted their own constructive ideas and are actually contributing to the betterment of this discussion and game. If you have please direct me to your suggestion so I can see and support your ideas as you must have better plans for executing a proper fix to this broken game.
Not upset just wanting to see things from your perspective and if I agree and others do as well I will support you because something needs to be done. We have dealt with this stuff for too long and we need a resolution.
I think that given the resources available, re-tuning all of the content for 8 players would take an immense amount of effort, and would likely result in a variety of problems that would need to be addressed by mechanics changes (stuff like buffs scaling multiplicativeley, and certain interactions between classes that would need to be examined). It would also make forming groups much harder, especially for content that already requires a lot of waiting.
And I don't see any benefit to forcing rainbow parties. To the contrary, in my opinion it would be needlessly limiting for folks who are interested in running non-rainbow parties. There are plenty of examples of classes that can have different builds that can jive together in one party (DC, OP, HR, and CW to name a few). I disagree with the notion of limiting player creativity, especially in the name of "make the whole group suffer and then they fix it" because due to limited resources we will all be suffering a very long time.
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
I did not skim anything, I read several pages, every word in every single post on each page and then skipped ahead a few pages as the conversation seemed to head to it's normal place.
I did read what the dev wrote, they said PvP needs love and private Q is a down payment on the needs. Perhaps we took different meanings from that statement. I don't think any amount of testing elite pvp builds in a private area will make PvP for the PvE player a better experience. I believe there needs to be a way for more players, the casual, the toe dippers to have a fun experience in PvP and I think my belief is shared by many, even people that don't post on this forum.
I agree that guantlegrym has been some of the most fun matches I have played, and it was fairly easy to build two teams and public Q for guant, I suspect there were no other groups playing the 10v10. The fun however came from the matches being fairly even, with players of a like mindset, play progressions and gear.
Maybe my statements about the Public and Private were not as clear as they could be. I would not scrap both, I need the public Q for the rewards and ideally I would like to earn these rewards while having some fun. Even better would be a close, maybe even a challenging match, which can not really happen if the gear or character progression are not fairly close (we use IL as one measurement). I would like not to be placed in groupings with hugely mismatched teams, if even 1 person on a team is significantly lower than the rest of the team it can be a huge mismatch.. Several times we have discussed different Q strategies such as IL Q's but they don't exist.
The only new Q systems are the solo Q and the private Q. I enjoyed the solo Q until people figure out how to wreck that experience too. My point was, maybe the highly competitive PvP players would have more fun with a private Q so some of us that are not about some leaderboard could have a way to get in the other map, have some fun and maybe earn a reward for a win or a cap here and there. I would be fine with other options as well, maybe move the leader board to the private Q and create some sort of competitive brackets over there...
I am not sure I am making a theory or even a hypothesis. I am merely sharing my thoughts on what I feel is the core issue of PvP which is a large gap in character strength that are all mixed in the same matches. I think we need a way to fix that along with all the talk about this power and that power. I would be happy for new maps, it seems like something that should be very easy to do, although maybe it is hard. I hope the maps have more space to spread out, or other options like more than 3 pins, or different team size etc...
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
nuff said the dev is correct and even one of the top GFs in the game (that knows what he is talking about) said the same thing GF survivability is over the top
would you like the quote ?
perhaps you want to change the definition of what survivability means ??
so the gf should be balanced based on people not putting up thier sheild/ playing poorly
making even more over power for people that do use thier shield and shield feats properly ? lol
Saying that GF has good survivability when your hits are being blocked is no different than saying that SW has good survivability when he is dodging your attacks. SW has teleport as a damage avoiding ability, GF has shield as damage avoiding ability. In both cases you have to work around that classes ability when fighting that class.
Survivability comes into play when you land a proper hit. Meaning you're not being dodged or blocked. When that is the case, GF cannot take as many proper hits as the classes I've mentioned before, even less since tenacity rework.
Is Shield a strong damage avoiding ability? Sure. And I'd be completely fine with it being nerfed, like its duration being decreased, if that meant I could take as many hits as a GWF without it.
we can keep changing what the definition of survivability is and moving the goal posts too
Ps a SW DOES not have teleport per say lol .... they wish they did and they can not keep sliping indefinitely waiting to react to your attack when you are open whereas a gf can be patient and wait all day for you to make a mistake and dps counter that is extreme survivbility
survivability does not only come into play(for the attacker or defender ? ) when you land a "proper hit " and we can expand more on
of phrasing thing to suit your examples
survivablility has to do with the big pictures powers and feats and gear synergy over all not just "HITTING or being hit"
A gf is also a less gear intensive class to play and there for is also more survivable based on that fact
Then you should be more specific calling out for nerfs. You think shield is too strong? Okay so say that. Saying GF is too strong so to hell with them isn't going to help with balancing. It will only result in infinite loop of favor of the month classes.
I had problems with the inaccuracies and exaggerations and terminology in your post and asked /was wondering about different views on survivibility ...your example were poor at best
I am all about multiple perspectives if you check out most of my posts and reasons why people might perceive
imbalance with any class or statements made
I dont even know where to start with you so i wont feed the troll
I asked the Question SHOULD and there was a question mark at the end !!! and it was in itself a response to the lowest hanging fruit item of gf survivability (shield blocking ) and not the only one
you made the assertion that without his shield he is squishy then a gwf direct quote ...
"GF doesn't have good survivability. GF has shield, without it its more squishy than a GWF "
then I asked should the gf be balanced based on not holding his shield up ?
I dont know the answer yet either way thats why it is called a debate
then went on the state the devs and other quotes i can find from top gf stating that they have good survivability
because someone does not know how to play their class and correct terminology/powers.. should balance be based on that ? (note this is also a question btw nothing you said )
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
I never said GF should be balanced based on not holding a shield either. I don't know where you're getting this question from. All I'm saying is a tank class should be able to take more direct hits than a dps class for me to say that it has good survivability.
If you don't count the shield, GF has only two encounters that boos survivability: Iron Warrior, which has laughably long cast time that it is impossible to use during any fight, and pointless only giving 30% damage resistance with silly uptime. The other is Lunging Strike that gives 50% dr for a mere 3 seconds. Keep in mind that damage resistance is not as effective as it is in PvE either, making both of these boosts fairly pointless. Then people wonder why GFs are opting for dps.
Compared to other survivability encounters like shield of CW or impossible to catch of TR or vampiric embrace of SW and several others encounters of other classes, what GF has is pretty much useless.
In the dps main's logic it is fine to dodge indefinitely but blocking the same way isn't.
Dodging is brain dead easy and for some attacks you can "dodge" towards the source of damage taking how much damage? oh yes, zero, cero, nothing, nada
SW is going to AoH you, "dodge" towards him= 100% damage mitigation and 100% cc resist.
GF is going to bullcharge you and you have your back turned on him, "dodge" backwards= 100% damage mitigation and 100% cc resist (don't come up with the "I don't have eyes on my back" argument, you guys can have massive field of view enabling a few settings)
Now for blocking you actually have to try position yourself so it actually works, getting hit from the sides or behind results in no damage mitigation nor cc resist whatsoever, see?
SW is going to AoH you, block in the wrong direction and you get proned and take damage.
GWF with very high mobility got around your shield and hit you while it was up= you take full damage from the blow.
Now against several enemies:
Enemies attack you at once when you dodged, result? no damage taken nor cc effects whatsoever
Enemies attack you and 1 or more get around your shield: if their toons are properly played and built, you're dead meat gg
You're wrong about class specific stuff by the way, not alll classes have stamina regen boosts in heroic/paragon feats.
Of course 99.99% dodging machines class users will disagree and those who don't have them (or not a true one, like SW) may see my arguments without blind hatred lol
They are not welcome as primary dps, buffer or controller - which means they are not welcome in most groups. Groups want HDPS & De/Buffers. Tanks & Healers respec to de/buffers at endgame. This leaves the TR with nothing to offer.
They need a serious rework, modelled on the Combat HR where Stealth triggers class mechanics instead of stance shifting.
Being overpowered in pvp is all down to piercing damage - if PD was reduced by Tenacity, other classes wouldn't be complaining about them.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
They only thing that Tenacity mitigating piercing damage did was nerf the damage of all piercing powers/feats by about 40% (more in the cast of SE), and then allow them to benefit from debuffs.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Sure, you are right that all classes have access to high level stamina regen gearing options and I am re-iterating it. But comparing dodges and shield is very different. Dodging is not brain dead - in fact a mistimed dodge can be lethal. Even more complicated is the fact that certain powers cannot be dodged or are very hard to dodge to say the least. Combine one of these control powers with a damage power and there you have your hit. A shield on tank classes does allow to be immune to these powers where dodge-classes are vulnerable. So they are not so easily compared. Yet another complication is that one class which you refer to implicitly with a dodge, the CW, suffers even more from enemies with Elven Battle which not only gives stamina regen but also seems to dispel chill stacks, which is the best way to land damage. This may have been fixed ( does anyone have any news on this ? ) although I am not aware of it if it is the case. Also, feat in CW tree that has a chance to give some stamina back only works in close quarters and best against classes that do small continuous hits in melee range like TRs - not useful against all classes.
They are two different mechanics. I happen to think that one has more advantages than the other, especially when combined with endless stamina gearing, for the reasons I described above. You are free to disagree and that is fine. One thing is for sure though and that is while efficient shielding takes practice and effort to master, the exact same thing can be said about dodging efficiently. Anyone can dodge mindlessly (I am sure that I can be accused that in fact!) just as anyone can use their shield mindlessly too. In fact, if you observe CWs that play their class well you will notice that they preserve their dodges for when they are most needed - in between they try to create the distance they require by jumping around. No room for mindless dodging there!
Finally, I have no idea about "you guys can have massive field of view enabling a few settings" - but would like to know more. Perhaps you can share this with me and others who also do not know.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
My point is that as someone who has a TR, GWF & SW of equal IL (11.5k) and all of them have the same amount of boons and very similar gear, the TR does noticeably less damage in 5 man content (GWF does the most by far, then SW).
My newest character is an HR Trapper, Even though he's very new, I've put some work into him so he's now 12.2k and nearing the same amount of boon completion but by comparison he's an absolute killer - easily keeping up with everyone of comparable IL regardless of class.
I do agree with the perspective that the TR is being ruined in PvE due to improperly balanced mechanics in PvP. The answer is not to kill the class due to misplaced resentment, but to isolate the problem and fix it whilst also fixing the issues in PvE.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Righteous is tough to play in pvp, true but when it comes to bring a player down it's the boss, i've played against tanky righteous, without AS and i was not able to kill, it was just a matter of time until a teamate came and i was dead meat.
Sooo in order ont to carry on saying the same thing with different words let's just agree that either everyone can have massive stamina gain or no one can which is my point, you dodge guys want to do it forever but to get GF stamina nerfed to the ground and that's blatantly hypocritical. Shield is great for 1v1, add 1 or more players (or a cc or burst capable class) and it's very easy to counter but hey, people don't want to think, perhaps they want to fight GF as it's a PVE npc and complain they get killed. Also, TR, DC, OP and GWF can counter a GF rather easily if played correctly but eh, why should people have to think? there should be a "1 shot any class in pvp with any power, 50/50 charges" token in the zen market.
As for your comment regarding Elven dispelling chill stacks, I think that's supposed to have been fixed for some time now already and wait, doesn't CW retain immunity frames still after the teleport animation even if just briefly? Either way, you can adjust your playstyle so dodge still can save you vs more than 1 oponent, that's not the case with shield, try to 1v2+ against players of the calibre of @saiyajin and @icyphish and I guarantee you that the moment one gets around your shield you get melted as without the shield GF is very very squishy + an easy prey for cc.
As for the field of view thing, I meant how you guys can costomize how far or close your character is on the screen + how much you can see pretty much, that allows you to see if any player is trying to attack you from behind, if you didn't know this already I suggest you to give it a try, it certainly helps. We don't have that luxury on consoles, the camera is super close to the character so if you are fighting someone it's very easy for another player to get you from behind.