The big question: What is going to happen to PVP stuff ?(everything with tenacity).
Probably the same thing that happened to the old knights captain and other armor. If I had to guess they would just do the same thing and rip off all the bonuses and the tenacity component off the armor when they migrate the tenacity to your character instead.
I applaud the hard work you are doing to try and attract more people to the game and PVP. But may I ask you one question? When you change the GF's role and make it not a burst damage striker what does that mean? 50% less damage? more? Could you possibly elaborate on that some more? I completely understand its very early but do you think this is going to be a mod 12b update? Thank you very much and I support your changes to pvp very much.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
I applaud the hard work you are doing to try and attract more people to the game and PVP. But may I ask you one question? When you change the GF's role and make it not a burst damage striker what does that mean? 50% less damage? more? Could you possibly elaborate on that some more? I completely understand its very early but do you think this is going to be a mod 12b update? Thank you very much and I support your changes to pvp very much.
I don't have a percentage for you, but I'd say "not more than a dps class". GFs have good survivability and disruption, and it doesn't make sense for them to be better than, say, a Trickster Rogue in terms of raw dps. (Of course, in a given fight, a GF might do better because it's spending more time on target, and the TR might be getting harassed more. But if nobody gets interrupted, the TR should do more damage.)
I don't expect any changes on the GF front for 12b. For us, 12b isn't actually that far away. Around the time you see 12, we have 12b at Alpha. After Alpha, it's tweaks and bug fixes, but not adding brand new things. So I'm afraid GF changes are further away than I'd like. But as I mentioned above, I don't want to just lower a bunch of numbers on them and call it good -- if they're going to have a more "interference" role and less of a dps role, they may well need a boost to some other things to go along with any reduction in their dps. So that could turn into a fairly serious revamp.
Fantastic that's what I was hoping you would say like you said theres no reason why they should have all the tools in the shed. Kind of unfortunate that it wont be until after mod 12b though I hope you can sneak it in there! We all are hoping lol. Keep up the good work.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
0
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
@rgutscheradev pls keep close eye to what these changes may turn paladins into, paladins are not high burst damage but they can be very dangerous by damage retribution.
I take that as it won't happen. Right now, DPS GF is just taking off, in a few months there will be way too many to just nerf them. That would not work after more and more people invest in their DPS GFs to get BIS. That would be a disaster. At least Buff the DPS classes and OP to be on par with GF.
or just apply a 50% gf damage nerf until they can address it eventually in mod 13 or 12b (we can hope) probably would be alot easier to implement temporarily.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
I don't expect any changes on the GF front for 12b. For us, 12b isn't actually that far away. Around the time you see 12, we have 12b at Alpha. After Alpha, it's tweaks and bug fixes, but not adding brand new things. So I'm afraid GF changes are further away than I'd like. But as I mentioned above, I don't want to just lower a bunch of numbers on them and call it good -- if they're going to have a more "interference" role and less of a dps role, they may well need a boost to some other things to go along with any reduction in their dps. So that could turn into a fairly serious revamp.
My first reaction in lieu of the Mod12b changes + no GF dps change: Uuuuuuh... nope.
Here is the rough picture for mod12b so far relative to now: Of the classes who are currently most able to kill quickly - TR, HR, and GF - two are getting a de facto huge dps (piercing) nerf. While GF, who already the most powerful burst of these 3, will get a de facto dps buff due (mainly) to the crit changes (which outweigh opposing factors).
Playwise, Mod12b pvp will be in fact worse off in terms of balance: The highest burst dps class gets a damage buff (GF). The next two best burst dps classes get a damage nerf (TR,HR). The team with good GFs wins every time because other classes can't compete.
The bottom line is that GF damage needs a significant temporary dps nerf for mod 12b to be reasonably playable. Sort them out with a proper class work over later.
That will be a huge change and if its finally done like you said yourself you'll need to compensate the loss of dps by buffing other things. Still, your "intereference" idea sounds like is going to turn the GF into a either worthless, trolling or cancerous class in pvp, my bet is that whatever you tune it to for will be horribly underpowered/overpowered. Please think well what those changes will be and whether they will make the class desired and useful for pvp.
I am asking you again though, why are some dps classes and builds still be allowed to be as tanky or tankier than tank classes? that needs to go for balance's sake. What's the logic behind dps classes tanking as much or more than tank classes? why is acceptable that they can do that?
That will be a huge change and if its finally done like you said yourself you'll need to compensate the loss of dps by buffing other things. Still, your "intereference" idea sounds like is going to turn the GF into a either worthless, trolling or cancerous class in pvp, my bet is that whatever you tune it to for will be horribly underpowered/overpowered. Please think well what those changes will be and whether they will make the class desired and useful for pvp.
I am asking you again though, why are some dps classes and builds still be allowed to be as tanky or tankier than tank classes? that needs to go for balance's sake. What's the logic behind dps classes tanking as much or more than tank classes? why is acceptable that they can do that?
They don't. If you build a class for DPS, you can't tank. Only GF can do both. For a DPS class to be tanky or to tank, you give up a lot of DPS. With GF, you can get Paingiver and Immovable Object at the same time.
Uh? dps classes can be ridiculously tanky and/or have extremely good survability (very high deflect, near infinite dodges, stealth, insane passive self healing etc) while still hitting hard.
@rgutscheradev with some of the changings supposeddly tonning down CC, what makes you think your "interference" rework would do any good to the GF class?
Why can dps classes tank and/or have extremely good levels of survability but why are you against tanks dealing good damage? dps guys have the best of both worlds, why can't tanks have both too?
That will be a huge change and if its finally done like you said yourself you'll need to compensate the loss of dps by buffing other things. Still, your "intereference" idea sounds like is going to turn the GF into a either worthless, trolling or cancerous class in pvp, my bet is that whatever you tune it to for will be horribly underpowered/overpowered. Please think well what those changes will be and whether they will make the class desired and useful for pvp.
I am asking you again though, why are some dps classes and builds still be allowed to be as tanky or tankier than tank classes? that needs to go for balance's sake. What's the logic behind dps classes tanking as much or more than tank classes? why is acceptable that they can do that?
They don't. If you build a class for DPS, you can't tank. Only GF can do both. For a DPS class to be tanky or to tank, you give up a lot of DPS. With GF, you can get Paingiver and Immovable Object at the same time.
Uh? dps classes can be ridiculously tanky and/or have extremely good survability (very high deflect, near infinite dodges, stealth, insane passive self healing etc) while still hitting hard.
@rgutscheradev with some of the changings supposeddly tonning down CC, what makes you think your "interference" rework would do any good to the GF class?
Why can dps classes tank and/or have extremely good levels of survability but why are you against tanks dealing good damage? dps guys have the best of both worlds, why can't tanks have both too?
GF does more damage than SW. SW is the primary DPS class, GF is the primary tank class.
How can't GF deal more damage than SW if that class is so underpowered and its mechanics simply don't fit the way the game works? SW dps needs to be buffed to the moon for sure, it is in a terrible state right now (especially in pvp), far worse than TR and any class with dps pontential, none has it a bad as SW does, not even close and of course that needs to be looked at.
The key thing here is that GF is a tank class. Right now it is 1st/2nd highest DPS in PVE and top dawg in PVP. Either GF gets balanced to be a tank again, or the other classes need major defensive and offensive buffs to be on par with GF. One or the other, the status quo is broken.
So you mean dps having even more survability and damage than they do now? that would be insane, would you want for example combat HR to get wild medicine, plant growth and percing damage buffed? lol
Survability is way too good for dps classes, if they want tanks to deal less damage then for balance's sake dps guys need to have less survability.
As things stand now:
GF= high dps and high survability Dps classes (except SW)= high dps and high survability
As you dps main guys want it:
GF= high survability and low damage Dps= high survability and high dps
Just lol why should dps have high survability? they do have both
Being objective about the terms "tank" and "dps" it would be:
GF= high survability and medium damage DPS= extremely high damage and low survability
Even then, all classes should have freedom to build for what they want or need but with drawbacks of course, high dps should mean low survability and high survability/utility should mean low personal dps.
The key thing here is that GF is a tank class. Right now it is 1st/2nd highest DPS in PVE and top dawg in PVP. Either GF gets balanced to be a tank again, or the other classes need major defensive and offensive buffs to be on par with GF. One or the other, the status quo is broken.
So you mean dps having even more survability and damage than they do now? that would be insane, would you want for example combat HR to get wild medicine, plant growth and percing damage buffed? lol
Survability is way too good for dps classes, if they want tanks to deal less damage then for balance's sake dps guys need to have less survability.
As things stand now:
GF= high dps and high survability Dps classes (except SW)= high dps and high survability
As you dps main guys want it:
GF= high survability and low damage Dps= high survability and high dps
Just lol why should dps have high survability? they do have both
Being objective about the terms "tank" and "dps" it would be:
GF= high survability and medium damage DPS= extremely high damage and low survability
Even then, all classes should have freedom to build for what they want or need but with drawbacks of course, high dps should mean low survability and high survability/utility should mean low personal dps.
I tend to agree, but you are the very first GF to say GF has high DPS and high survivability. That is a good first step.
I don't remember any (notable and active, like Ryu) GF denying survability is high but like you said it yourself, you tend to agree so yeah dps survability needs to be tonned down by quite a bit
In order for you to get reliable info about the state of pvp please check @xsaiyajinx1 YouTube channel and take a look at how he murders GFs as GWF, TR, OP and HR, he has videos in which he overwhelms and absolutely destroys notable GFs like mod removed names and others.
The big question: What is going to happen to PVP stuff ?(everything with tenacity).
@treesclimber, I found the below quote from one of the other official PVP feedback threads, this should answer the questions of anyone asking what happens to PVP gear post tenacity rework:
Of course, if we remove Tenacity, the gear that had it will get stats to make up for it. The goal would be that it’s gear that is of an appropriate power level for its item level.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
I moved this comment over from a different thread and deleted the old one:
@rgutscheradev, you should look into cleaning up stronghold siege and adding it to the private que. Right now, the lag, allowing you to use your active companion bonuses, and how difficult it is to que for are the major reasons why siege sucks. It would be a much more fun type of PVP if what I have below was implemented:
I am not sure how to help with the extreame lag stronghold siege suffers, I am no tech person. Anything at all you can do to help with that will go a long way towards making people want to play this again.
Disable active companion bonuses in siege, they have been the cause of some nasty siege issues in the past and are completly unnessasary. Companions are not designed with PVP in mind, they are PVE tools and they tend to be OP when put into a PVP setting. Many of them offer things like large amounts of control resistance, control bonus, damage, additional self heals, extra control effects, ect.
Add stronghold siege to private que, when I went to the preview server to look around, only guantlgrym and domination were options. Stronghold siege is ridiculously hard to get a group together for due to trying to get so many people to que at the same time without being able to easily see how many are still waiting for the que to pop. We had to use custom channels to coordinate when people still did siege and often people would give up without telling anyone so it was nigh impossible to see how many people we had still waiting. For a long time, there were also some nasty matchmaking bugs. One of which that made it so even when you did get a full group, the que pop would be dropped repeatidly until it finally let everyone in. These bugs + coordinating with 40 people ensured that everyone had to wait hours every single time they wanted to do a siege match. I don't know if these bugs were fixed or not, but I would definatly look into having people test for them if you dicide to add siege to the private que.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Comments
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1232826/deflect-procs-that-go-off-without-deflects-and-mysteriously-entering-combat
I applaud the hard work you are doing to try and attract more people to the game and PVP. But may I ask you one question? When you change the GF's role and make it not a burst damage striker what does that mean? 50% less damage? more? Could you possibly elaborate on that some more? I completely understand its very early but do you think this is going to be a mod 12b update? Thank you very much and I support your changes to pvp very much.
I don't expect any changes on the GF front for 12b. For us, 12b isn't actually that far away. Around the time you see 12, we have 12b at Alpha. After Alpha, it's tweaks and bug fixes, but not adding brand new things. So I'm afraid GF changes are further away than I'd like. But as I mentioned above, I don't want to just lower a bunch of numbers on them and call it good -- if they're going to have a more "interference" role and less of a dps role, they may well need a boost to some other things to go along with any reduction in their dps. So that could turn into a fairly serious revamp.
Will there be new PVP Gear in the new mod?
Fantastic that's what I was hoping you would say like you said theres no reason why they should have all the tools in the shed. Kind of unfortunate that it wont be until after mod 12b though I hope you can sneak it in there! We all are hoping lol. Keep up the good work.
Here is the rough picture for mod12b so far relative to now:
Of the classes who are currently most able to kill quickly - TR, HR, and GF - two are getting a de facto huge dps (piercing) nerf. While GF, who already the most powerful burst of these 3, will get a de facto dps buff due (mainly) to the crit changes (which outweigh opposing factors).
Playwise, Mod12b pvp will be in fact worse off in terms of balance: The highest burst dps class gets a damage buff (GF). The next two best burst dps classes get a damage nerf (TR,HR). The team with good GFs wins every time because other classes can't compete.
The bottom line is that GF damage needs a significant temporary dps nerf for mod 12b to be reasonably playable.
Sort them out with a proper class work over later.
@rgutscheradev
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
That will be a huge change and if its finally done like you said yourself you'll need to compensate the loss of dps by buffing other things. Still, your "intereference" idea sounds like is going to turn the GF into a either worthless, trolling or cancerous class in pvp, my bet is that whatever you tune it to for will be horribly underpowered/overpowered. Please think well what those changes will be and whether they will make the class desired and useful for pvp.
I am asking you again though, why are some dps classes and builds still be allowed to be as tanky or tankier than tank classes? that needs to go for balance's sake. What's the logic behind dps classes tanking as much or more than tank classes? why is acceptable that they can do that?
@rgutscheradev with some of the changings supposeddly tonning down CC, what makes you think your "interference" rework would do any good to the GF class?
Why can dps classes tank and/or have extremely good levels of survability but why are you against tanks dealing good damage? dps guys have the best of both worlds, why can't tanks have both too?
Survability is way too good for dps classes, if they want tanks to deal less damage then for balance's sake dps guys need to have less survability.
As things stand now:
GF= high dps and high survability
Dps classes (except SW)= high dps and high survability
As you dps main guys want it:
GF= high survability and low damage
Dps= high survability and high dps
Just lol why should dps have high survability? they do have both
Being objective about the terms "tank" and "dps" it would be:
GF= high survability and medium damage
DPS= extremely high damage and low survability
Even then, all classes should have freedom to build for what they want or need but with drawbacks of course, high dps should mean low survability and high survability/utility should mean low personal dps.
In order for you to get reliable info about the state of pvp please check @xsaiyajinx1 YouTube channel and take a look at how he murders GFs as GWF, TR, OP and HR, he has videos in which he overwhelms and absolutely destroys notable GFs like mod removed names and others.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
@rgutscheradev, you should look into cleaning up stronghold siege and adding it to the private que.
Right now, the lag, allowing you to use your active companion bonuses, and how difficult it is to que for are the major reasons why siege sucks. It would be a much more fun type of PVP if what I have below was implemented:
I am not sure how to help with the extreame lag stronghold siege suffers, I am no tech person. Anything at all you can do to help with that will go a long way towards making people want to play this again.
Disable active companion bonuses in siege, they have been the cause of some nasty siege issues in the past and are completly unnessasary. Companions are not designed with PVP in mind, they are PVE tools and they tend to be OP when put into a PVP setting. Many of them offer things like large amounts of control resistance, control bonus, damage, additional self heals, extra control effects, ect.
Add stronghold siege to private que, when I went to the preview server to look around, only guantlgrym and domination were options. Stronghold siege is ridiculously hard to get a group together for due to trying to get so many people to que at the same time without being able to easily see how many are still waiting for the que to pop. We had to use custom channels to coordinate when people still did siege and often people would give up without telling anyone so it was nigh impossible to see how many people we had still waiting. For a long time, there were also some nasty matchmaking bugs. One of which that made it so even when you did get a full group, the que pop would be dropped repeatidly until it finally let everyone in. These bugs + coordinating with 40 people ensured that everyone had to wait hours every single time they wanted to do a siege match. I don't know if these bugs were fixed or not, but I would definatly look into having people test for them if you dicide to add siege to the private que.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC