Yea naw that's not gonna work you messing with the Potion system, and it is plain fun using my potions like I should like any smart adventurer should before entering combat, so lets get this straight you want to have a PVP forum post and talk about messing with PVE players potions, ok so now im requesting all potions in game be Grandfathered in so they have to stay like they are, meening they have been this way for X amount of time and a customer that's been with cryptic for 8 years is telling you no that stuff stays grandfathered into the system because we have had it that way for a very long time and we don't need anyone messing that up, now currently your potions are working fine nothing wrong with them, if its not broke don't try to fix it, if you don't like drinking atleast 3 potions before combat your not even a real D&D player, potion system is currently fine and needs no adjustment you got bigger things to worry about then messing with our pot system like fixing all the glitches and bugs that's been here for 4 years now!!!! and iv been here 8 years with you as a whole on a different game, so a customer with 8 years of gaming with a single company is telling to get your stuff fixed then worry about stuff like this, seriously you got bugs in this game that's 4 years old!!! the potion system is the last thing you should even be worried with, plus once your 70 you only need 3-6 different potions that is it!! do not mess with Wild storm elixir, flasks of potency or squash soup, that's just a no no, DO NOT MESS WITH THEM no need to Plain and simple they working fine!!! REQUESTING GRANDFATHER CLAUS on those 3 potions!!!!
The pot system is absolutely NOT fine as is, you want proof? Here is a taly of how many extra stats you can get before each battle:
Here is the max. I updated this back in module 11 but it is still current.
You only get 38 Rank12 hybrid enchants worth of extra stat.
As you can see above, the number of pots you can have in PVP is out of control. Players can (and do) buff themselves to the maximum before PVP battles and it gives them an enormous advantage. It further feeds into issues with stat inflation and plays a big role in widening the gap between lower geared and higher geared players.
if you don't like drinking atleast 3 potions before combat your not even a real D&D player
Last I checked, you will still be able to drink "at least 3" potions before each battle anyway. They are not completly cutting out all the pots and you will definatly be able to have more than 3 consumable buffs active. Most likely the very 3 buffs you brought up, flask of potency, wild storm elixir, and squash soup will remain in seperate categories and thus usable together. And another thing, how leniant was the DM you had??? Drinking at least 3 potions before each battle was not the norm. It sounds to me like you had a lot of spare change compared to the average adventuring party or were finding a lot more potions as loot than most D&D groups. That, and this is a terrible justification for keeping a broken system in place even if it was true. Not all things in pin and paper D&D can be transfered to an online MMO and remain balanced. Systems that make NW more like D&D are great flavor and in some cases, worth implementing, but if a certain aspect of D&D will harm NW, then it should not be implemented plain and simple.
I agree that the pot system only needs to be adjusted for PVP and if possible, the devs should make this change a PVP only thing. However, I don't see any reason to cry if pots end up getting adjusted for PVE as well. It would cut down on the expenses for PVE and PVP alike, its not like maintaining full pots or anything close to it is cheep after all. You have to constantly replace them and cutting down on how many you need means more money in your pocket.
I also agree that Cryptic has a lot of work to do and for way too long, they left so many bugs and other issues unfixed. But shooting down a huge step fowards like better pot limits just because "we have had it that way for a really long time" is regressive. You cannot have all things you ever earned remain the same as they've allways been AND still fix a broken game. Because many of the items that players have obtained are part of the problem, in order to have a healthyer game for everyone including you, people will need to give up some of their toys.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited July 2017
The main problem i can tell that needs to be addressed is bursts honestly, after doing something about bursts only then balance classes, it makes plain sence to me that both conqueror GF (GF is just an example) and protector being capable of defeating the same player, one slower than the other, this totally doesn't happen.
I agree that the pot system only needs to be adjusted for PVP and if possible, the devs should make this change a PVP only thing. However, I don't see any reason to cry if pots end up getting adjusted for PVE as well. It would cut down on the expenses for PVE and PVP alike, its not like maintaining full pots or anything close to it is cheep after all. You have to constantly replace them and cutting down on how many you need means more money in your pocket.
It's meaningless in pve, pots other than wild storm elixir are barely used, even wild storm elixir i only see some top players using.
Potions are not fine in my eyes, they disbalance a lot. Just thinking of a TR drinking a potion for deflectseverity +10%, wich cut´s his incoming deflected damage nearly by 50%. A high deflectbuild becomes invinceable by that. I met Tr´s in soloqueue with >80% deflectchance, simply broken. Same as statboost +2(main)/+1, too much. I think it needs a tone down.
If they want to limit potions they should just limit it to only 3 potions (ALL POTION TYPES included) and the 3 invocation blessings active at one time. This way you have to more carefully choose what potions you use and pick a path you wanna go down more carefully.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
Potions are fine, they are all available to everyone. This is a red herring. Those complaining about pots are BIS players with lion mounts and rank 20 guilds. They just don't want any competition. Disable mounts and guild boons, you will have more balance.
Apparently you don't realize this but the people buffing to the max in pvp ARE the BIS players. This is because max pots are very expensive to maintain and usually, only BIS players can afford it. I recently sold my consumable arsenal off for close to 1mil AD and that was just some of the pots that could be used together. What lowbie can afford that when they still have enchantments, mounts, gear, and other permanant things to pay for?
I agree on disabling mounts and boons in PVP or at the very least, reducing how much stats and other powers they give you in PVP by a ton. I wouldn't mind if all those items still gave you something as long as its small.
As for BIS players don't want competition, this may be the case for some of them but the vast majority of the time, they are bored out of their sculls by easy fights. A lot of BIS players have left NW over the years and a lot of times, the lack of competition and unbalanced PVP is why. Much of the remaining BIS community is demotivated by the state NW PVP is in right now and only stay because they have freinds here.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
The main problem i can tell that needs to be addressed is bursts honestly, after doing something about bursts only then balance classes, it makes plain sence to me that both conqueror GF (GF is just an example) and protector being capable of defeating the same player, one slower than the other, this totally doesn't happen.
I agree that the pot system only needs to be adjusted for PVP and if possible, the devs should make this change a PVP only thing. However, I don't see any reason to cry if pots end up getting adjusted for PVE as well. It would cut down on the expenses for PVE and PVP alike, its not like maintaining full pots or anything close to it is cheep after all. You have to constantly replace them and cutting down on how many you need means more money in your pocket.
It's meaningless in pve, pots other than wild storm elixir are barely used, even wild storm elixir i only see some top players using.
good so they will be minimal impact on pve then.. so no complaining from salty players blaming pvp for everything : D also the huge cost of them
there are pots now that are +2000 for a stat (up from 1500 on the chart) say +2000 more crit also used
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
Remove SH boons, insignias, mount combat powers, mount stat powers, add item level brackets, and leave potions alone. These things will bring PVP back to life. Of course those that use SH boons and have several legendary mounts will disagree, they have unfair advantages and want to keep them.
how does advocating for potion removal help Bis players exactly ? ? and how does evening that playing field out insure no competition ... and why would players even want to insure no competition if they have invested so much time and effort ?
how does decreasing power gap by limiting potions give a greater advantage to level 20 guilds .....you say they have unfair advantages and want to keep them ? meanwhile the largest guilds are avocation the most balance changes and removal of power gap as you already know
Remove SH boons, insignias, mount combat powers, mount stat powers, add item level brackets, and leave potions alone. These things will bring PVP back to life. Of course those that use SH boons and have several legendary mounts will disagree, they have unfair advantages and want to keep them.
Many of the same BIS players advocating for removing boons and mount powers/stats/insignias from pvp are the exact same ones advocating for removing pots. Is there a reason they can't ask for both of those things??? All of these things are major sources of powercreep that disproportionally end up in the hands of BIS players rather than the rest of the playerbase. Getting rid of these things in PVP is the complete opposite of attempting to maintain an unfair advantage. It is in the BIS PVP community's best interest to "bring PVP back to life" and the majority are well aware of this. BIS players tend to miss the old days, they miss their freinds that left, they miss the thriving PVP community this game once had, and they miss the competition. In short, they miss when this game's PVP was fun.
The only people standing in the way of that are a rare few. Ironically even some of that rare few tend to be upset by the decay of this game but end up clinging to the very things poisoning it out of fear of change and because they are unwilling to give up some of their earnings after all the time they wasted going after them.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
I did not read many post from members of "bigger" guilds, asking for downgear and removing the SH boons in PVP, only few player asked for this directly. "Bigger" PVP guilds surely were a plague for several mods in the past until they recognized that PVP is dead and needs balance, but it took them some time to get there tbh. I widnessed those pug stomps in the past, noone is innocent, but at least they changed their mind since too many player left. If those player want to get balance, they should consequently ask for things like: 1. SH boons 2. broken mount powers 3. insigniaboni 4. glyphs 5. boons in general 6. pots 7. and more
There are lots of issues with several classes, but before balancing a downgear is needed.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Potions are fine, they are all available to everyone. This is a red herring. Those complaining about pots are BIS players with lion mounts and rank 20 guilds. They just don't want any competition. Disable mounts and guild boons, you will have more balance.
Apparently you don't realize this but the people buffing to the max in pvp ARE the BIS players. This is because max pots are very expensive to maintain and usually, only BIS players can afford it. I recently sold my consumable arsenal off for close to 1mil AD and that was just some of the pots that could be used together. What lowbie can afford that when they still have enchantments, mounts, gear, and other permanant things to pay for?
I agree on disabling mounts and boons in PVP or at the very least, reducing how much stats and other powers they give you in PVP by a ton. I wouldn't mind if all those items still gave you something as long as its small.
As for BIS players don't want competition, this may be the case for some of them but the vast majority of the time, they are bored out of their sculls by easy fights. A lot of BIS players have left NW over the years and a lot of times, the lack of competition and unbalanced PVP is why. Much of the remaining BIS community is demotivated by the state NW PVP is in right now and only stay because they have freinds here.
True story, when i joined solo queue and started 1 shoting newbies with bulcharge or taking half of their like with each tick of WB i felt sorry for them, not satisfied.
Remove SH boons, insignias, mount combat powers, mount stat powers, add item level brackets, and leave potions alone. These things will bring PVP back to life. Of course those that use SH boons and have several legendary mounts will disagree, they have unfair advantages and want to keep them.
Many of the same BIS players advocating for removing boons and mount powers/stats/insignias from pvp are the exact same ones advocating for removing pots. Is there a reason they can't ask for both of those things??? All of these things are major sources of powercreep that disproportionally end up in the hands of BIS players rather than the rest of the playerbase. Getting rid of these things in PVP is the complete opposite of attempting to maintain an unfair advantage. It is in the BIS PVP community's best interest to "bring PVP back to life" and the majority are well aware of this. BIS players tend to miss the old days, they miss their freinds that left, they miss the thriving PVP community this game once had, and they miss the competition. In short, they miss when this game's PVP was fun.
The only people standing in the way of that are a rare few. Ironically even some of that rare few tend to be upset by the decay of this game but end up clinging to the very things poisoning it out of fear of change and because they are unwilling to give up some of their earnings after all the time they wasted going after them.
Exactly.
At the end of the day, the BIS players have tens of thousands more stats in PVP.
Potions are easily 30+ rank 12s. Boons are another 30+ rank 12s. Gear only represents less than HALF of your total stats from these sources. removing the excess pots will bring this down a bit...
its almost as if we need "boon suppression" in PVP LOL.
the BEST thing this game could do right now is remove campaign boons and SH boons from PVP. Continue with the potion nerf as described in earlier comment. This removes tens of thousands of stats from PVP. Which makes it MUCH more competitive. Then focus on some class balance adjustments, maybe bring back an NCL even for 3 months or something. Etc.
The way PVP is atm ? There is none. Go into Dom-queue find a match, end up getting oneshotted by one TR or GF with maxed out stats. My solution? Exit NWO. Hop on to the next game, spend my money, enjoy. In the meantime I go on waiting for improvments and forget about those few player standing forgotten in Hotenow, showing each other their "lion".
> @schietindebux said: > The way PVP is atm ? There is none. > Go into Dom-queue find a match, end up getting oneshotted by one TR or GF with maxed out stats. > My solution? Exit NWO. Hop on to the next game, spend my money, enjoy. > In the meantime I go on waiting for improvments and forget about those few player standing forgotten in Hotenow, showing each other their "lion".
Get out there and grind like those players did young soldier!
> Go into Dom-queue find a match, end up getting oneshotted by one TR or GF with maxed out stats.
> My solution? Exit NWO. Hop on to the next game, spend my money, enjoy.
> In the meantime I go on waiting for improvments and forget about those few player standing forgotten in Hotenow, showing each other their "lion".
Get out there and grind like those players did young soldier!
Lol, for what purpose? Since there is no competition and no PVP, why should I grind old grandma Honestly, maybe Cryptic should simply pay those player who spend so much time and money/AD to buy that broken toy. At least we get over this endless discussion about if or if not there should be a healthy PVP. Fact: Gearmadness persists = no PVP downgear = maybe some player will give it a try
Btw I have most of those toys myself like enchants, glyphs, axebeak etc. (no lion tbh) but I would simply put it in a shelf to give PVP a chance in this slowly dying game. I witnessed so many player leaving the game and PVP , stating exactly what I tell you- no balance, too much gear, too broken setups/classes
Since crit becomes a thing again I have a very important ask of you.
Can you please fix the stronghold group stats boon? Its working in a very weird way that makes no sense at all.
Lets say you are a DC in a party of 5 but only you as a DC wants to use that group stats. You have to convince everyone else in the party to select the boon once you enter PvP/dungeon so the full boon activates for you, then the rest have to switch boon again to whatever they want to use for their classes. And once you die, you will loose the all the stats except the first one.
The way this is working is just very bad and its making the whole boon kinda useless. I mean you cant force people you dont even know or dont even have the boon, so most of the time you are stuck with only the first stats and that is ofc very unfair when others have like 8k power/armpen and you are stuck with 2500 deflect.
It should work like this:
If you are solo you should get 1/5 of each stats. If you are in a party of 5, then you should get 5/5 of each stats. And it shouldnt matter if youre the only one picking it because lets face it, you will never have a full party or even half a party that wants or have that boon.
Very few currently use it, suggesting something is wrong
current bug #1: when you die, you lose the group stat buff. Have to get your whole party together again and swap on / off the boon to get the full buff. This is very bad in pvp.
current bug #2: if a party of 5 picks group stat such that you get the full buff, you keep that full buff (until death / instance change) even if the other 4 switch to another boon
Alternative config #1: Strip the concept that others in group have to use the boon. Instead, provide EACH stat at 480 per player in party to the players equipping the boon (at max Rank 10). If 1 person uses the R10 Group stat boon in solo play, they would get 480 of each stat. If 1 person uses the R10 group stat in a party of 2, they would get 960 of each stat. If 1 person uses the R10 group stat in a party of 5, they would get 2400 of each stat. This makes it a good option for solo q play or for play with mixed guilds (not all have group stat boon).
Alternative config #2: Make it work like mastercraft weapons. Party buff equal to 480 for each of the 5 stats per player in party with group stat equipped. If 1 person uses the R10 group stat, the entire party of 5 gets 480 of all 5 stats. If 2 people use the R10 group stat, the entire party of 5 gets 960 of all 5 stats.
I can only agree with that. Fix the group stat boon asap.
Since crit becomes a thing again I have a very important ask of you.
Can you please fix the stronghold group stats boon? Its working in a very weird way that makes no sense at all.
Lets say you are a DC in a party of 5 but only you as a DC wants to use that group stats. You have to convince everyone else in the party to select the boon once you enter PvP/dungeon so the full boon activates for you, then the rest have to switch boon again to whatever they want to use for their classes. And once you die, you will loose the all the stats except the first one.
The way this is working is just very bad and its making the whole boon kinda useless. I mean you cant force people you dont even know or dont even have the boon, so most of the time you are stuck with only the first stats and that is ofc very unfair when others have like 8k power/armpen and you are stuck with 2500 deflect.
It should work like this:
If you are solo you should get 1/5 of each stats. If you are in a party of 5, then you should get 5/5 of each stats. And it shouldnt matter if youre the only one picking it because lets face it, you will never have a full party or even half a party that wants or have that boon.
Very few currently use it, suggesting something is wrong
current bug #1: when you die, you lose the group stat buff. Have to get your whole party together again and swap on / off the boon to get the full buff. This is very bad in pvp.
current bug #2: if a party of 5 picks group stat such that you get the full buff, you keep that full buff (until death / instance change) even if the other 4 switch to another boon
Alternative config #1: Strip the concept that others in group have to use the boon. Instead, provide EACH stat at 480 per player in party to the players equipping the boon (at max Rank 10). If 1 person uses the R10 Group stat boon in solo play, they would get 480 of each stat. If 1 person uses the R10 group stat in a party of 2, they would get 960 of each stat. If 1 person uses the R10 group stat in a party of 5, they would get 2400 of each stat. This makes it a good option for solo q play or for play with mixed guilds (not all have group stat boon).
Alternative config #2: Make it work like mastercraft weapons. Party buff equal to 480 for each of the 5 stats per player in party with group stat equipped. If 1 person uses the R10 group stat, the entire party of 5 gets 480 of all 5 stats. If 2 people use the R10 group stat, the entire party of 5 gets 960 of all 5 stats.
> Go into Dom-queue find a match, end up getting oneshotted by one TR or GF with maxed out stats.
> My solution? Exit NWO. Hop on to the next game, spend my money, enjoy.
> In the meantime I go on waiting for improvments and forget about those few player standing forgotten in Hotenow, showing each other their "lion".
Get out there and grind like those players did young soldier!
Lol, for what purpose? Since there is no competition and no PVP, why should I grind old grandma Honestly, maybe Cryptic should simply pay those player who spend so much time and money/AD to buy that broken toy. At least we get over this endless discussion about if or if not there should be a healthy PVP. Fact: Gearmadness persists = no PVP downgear = maybe some player will give it a try
Btw I have most of those toys myself like enchants, glyphs, axebeak etc. (no lion tbh) but I would simply put it in a shelf to give PVP a chance in this slowly dying game. I witnessed so many player leaving the game and PVP , stating exactly what I tell you- no balance, too much gear, too broken setups/classes
Yeah this is just silly to say "go grind the gear" that is a very very poor response to PVP. The fact is, each module has brought larger and larger "gear gap" to PVP and each module the PVP scene has gotten worse and worse with more and more players leaving.
At the center of the PVP issue is 1 problem: Gear Gap.
You cannot have a competitive PVP scene, that RETAINS PVP focused players with massive gear gap. This is why many many other MMORPGs have tried to modify their formula to allow all the gear inflation (aka power creep) into their PVE because that is what keeps players hooked, new carrots! But in the PVP world, they have tried to create a "stripped down" version of PVP, or atleast reduced the benefits of "power creep" in PVP so that even a brand new max level character can play SOME role in battles.
If PVP is to ever be healthy again, they are going to HAVE to find a way to reduce this gear gap, to allow newer players and veterans alike to all get to enjoy PVP. This obviously comes with both pros and cons. The advantages are we get an environment where much of the "power gap" is stripped away, the downside is that players who have that "power gap" have their power "stripped away". But we cannot have it both ways...
In the end, the only solution I can see is either removing all the boons and power creep each module has brought (like mount bonuses, insignias, etc.) OR severely diminishing the impact those things have in PVP (by creating a separate diminishing returns formula for PVP). They both have their downsides... but that is the only true hope for NW PVP.
Its really too bad there arent DEVs around today who where here back before any modules were released... Because their "formula" has significantly changed for the worse...
Back in the day, you would run all the PVE content and dungeons for the best gear which in turn was ALSO he best gear for PVP. If they go BACK to this model of gameplay... Then boons and all the power creep are still needed, as they help you get the best gear for PVP. So it doesnt remove the "desire" to still get those things.
That model would work.. and create healthier PVE and PVP at the same time. But it would cost players who "farmed" their boons and what not... They would be asked to give up their massive power advantage, and accept a much much smaller advantage to the point where skill would actually come into play in PVP. Many players are afraid of this, but I frankly would welcome it with open arms. No longer could people lose and hide behind excuses of "lion mount" or whatever else they want to blame, but others who DO hide behind those things (their gear advantage) will not like this as they will be forced to actually be GOOD at the game, rather than just have better gear.
There could be a naked PVP queue NOW, just like there is a solo queue. Let the BIS PVP guilds have their modes. But, give everybody else a mode that entails fair fights, has no gear gap and requires skill. So, status quo/minor-tweaks for BIS GH 20 players, new stripped-down mode for everybody else. Item Level brackets, no pets, no pots, no mounts, no boons, nice rewards. The game needs a naked mode with either scaling or IL brackets, without those, PVP will never come back. Players have been sick and tired of being farmed by PVP guilds for a long time now, that is why it is dead.
I want to clarify this... I see people saying "naked" PVP Que and I am starting to wonder if I know what you are talking about...
By "naked" do you mean no gear at all? OR do you mean Naked to me we can use gear, just not boons/companions/mount bonuses/etc...
Because I would be in favor of the latter - a que that disables Campaign and SH boons from PVP... but would NOT be in favor of a totally "naked" PVP Que, that is just silly to me.
There could be a naked PVP queue NOW, just like there is a solo queue. Let the BIS PVP guilds have their modes. But, give everybody else a mode that entails fair fights, has no gear gap and requires skill. So, status quo/minor-tweaks for BIS GH 20 players, new stripped-down mode for everybody else. Item Level brackets, no pets, no pots, no mounts, no boons, nice rewards. The game needs a naked mode with either scaling or IL brackets, without those, PVP will never come back. Players have been sick and tired of being farmed by PVP guilds for a long time now, that is why it is dead.
I want to clarify this... I see people saying "naked" PVP Que and I am starting to wonder if I know what you are talking about...
By "naked" do you mean no gear at all? OR do you mean Naked to me we can use gear, just not boons/companions/mount bonuses/etc...
Because I would be in favor of the latter - a que that disables Campaign and SH boons from PVP... but would NOT be in favor of a totally "naked" PVP Que, that is just silly to me.
Naked PVP has nothing to do with removing armor. But, come to think of it, no gear would be cool, everybody just gets a set amount of stats on their toon. I know with the removal of tenacity from gear, with PVE gear coming in, with all its quirks, PVP will get even worse. Ambush rings, Blackthorn, etc.
Ok well you might want to choose a better term than "naked" PVP because frankly... Naked means... well Naked...
What you MIGHT want to use instead are things like "Vanilla" PVP (meaning plain as in no "flavor" or in this case no "boons")
Or maybe boon-less PVP. LOTS of other ways to describe it. When I read Naked PVP I think you actually mean "nobody gets armor or boons or mounts and we literally run around naked without gear".
> @rayrdan said: > I AM looking for a logic answer why a cc to get diminshing return? > > Because some classes and powers ignore the CC diminishing return. Also, other powers and passives can bug and ignore certain "immunities" on PvP, making that some classes can perma control a target. > > as long as a tank can oneshot everything and run like a fox every discussion about balance this balance that is meaningless. > buffs are also out of discussion when the balance meter is now GFs. > In a world without gfs and with nerfed tr/hr, GWFs would be out of whack. While this might be true i would like to wait before. > So lets bring few classes down to earth (primary GFs) and then lets talk about what can be nerfed. > im ok with HRs changes (i play one) but not when a tank (GFs and to a certain degree OPs) can deal the damage they deal. > > FEEDBACK: > tenacity has to go before mod 13 or mod 12/b
You're ok with your build but not ours? Gee, thanks. One of the coolest things about this game is that pretty much anyone can build the character they want to depending on thier wants and play style. Why would you want to mess that up for customers who have invested time and money into the build they have fun with? Furthermore, why do certain people here always want to nerf things instead of just bringing others up?
I'm a fan of this idea. Plus, it just sounds sexy.
Give people the options to queue up for matches with certain elements turned off. No mounts/companions/boons/etc etc. Mix and match in any way you desire.
Personally, I feel the biggest issue for ages with PVP has been matchmaking. People can complain about potions, boons, this and that. But a lot of that is taken into the new IL so the matchmaking needs improvement. And if potions are altered for PVP than it should be a PVP only change. Far too many things in this game have changed because it broke either PVE or PVP and the change ends up worsening both experiences and alienating players on both sides.
The longer I've played NW the more I agree with the sentiment that they should pull PVP out of NW and let it be it's own game. Then changes in PVE dont affect PVP and vice versa.
Going to bust some myths here and probably get flamed in the process but I think it's a bit misleading what I've been seeing in this thread. The gwf class does need some tweaks in two of the Paragon paths (instigator and sentinel) but destroyer is not one of the paths that needs buffs.
What gwfs have:
Gwfs have a prone on the daily indominable strength and a knock back prone on Savage advance. Fls should not provide a prone because no class should have an encounter AOE prone (gfs and hrs have a single target). Gwfs have very high damage with self buffs (hidden daggers, destroyer class feature, destroyer capstone, battle fury etc.), Gwfs have extremely high mobility with infinite stamina via battle fury. Gwfs have extremely high survivability now with recent changes to piercing damage via lifesteal and high hp pools + endless consumption. Gwfs have cc immunity via unstoppable (except for cb which every dodgeless class in the game has a problem with now).
What gwfs don't have:
Gwfs don't have any good group utility or group buffs (battle fury buff is pathetic). A clear defined role in a PvP 5 man (other than sprinting between nodes and overall harassment). Reliable burst damage due to the way stacks work for damage increase. An effective Gap closer (charges on threatening rush need to go).
The only downside is that to get the class to perform for new players is that it takes a lot of gear, high level enchants, insignias, mounts, etc., whereas a gf is tanky out of the box and provides more utility due to class mechanics and the way that the shield mechanic works. The class does need a rework I agree, but it is definately not in such bad shape as those in this thread would have you believe. Now warlocks on the other hand.....
Going to bust some myths here and probably get flamed in the process but I think it's a bit misleading what I've been seeing in this thread. The gwf class does need some tweaks in two of the Paragon paths (instigator and sentinel) but destroyer is not one of the paths that needs buffs.
What gwfs have:
Gwfs have a prone on the daily indominable strength and a knock back prone on Savage advance. Fls should not provide a prone because no class should have an encounter AOE prone (gfs and hrs have a single target). Gwfs have very high damage with self buffs (hidden daggers, destroyer class feature, destroyer capstone, battle fury etc.), Gwfs have extremely high mobility with infinite stamina via battle fury. Gwfs have extremely high survivability now with recent changes to piercing damage via lifesteal and high hp pools + endless consumption. Gwfs have cc immunity via unstoppable (except for cb which every dodgeless class in the game has a problem with now).
What gwfs don't have:
Gwfs don't have any good group utility or group buffs (battle fury buff is pathetic). A clear defined role in a PvP 5 man (other than sprinting between nodes and overall harassment). Reliable burst damage due to the way stacks work for damage increase. An effective Gap closer (charges on threatening rush need to go).
The only downside is that to get the class to perform for new players is that it takes a lot of gear, high level enchants, insignias, mounts, etc., whereas a gf is tanky out of the box and provides more utility due to class mechanics and the way that the shield mechanic works. The class does need a rework I agree, but it is definately not in such bad shape as those in this thread would have you believe. Now warlocks on the other hand.....
I totally agree about threatening rush.. GF has no charges on theirs so we shouldn't either. I also think that takedown should actually prone people. I also think that our stacks are a pain to stack and takes too long to stack/ go away too fast.
I wish our battle fury would buff our teammates for more then it does.
But there has always been a few good gwfs playing this game hasn't there been huh shooter. Even if we gwfs have always been subpar lol.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
Comments
and as for this quote of yours: Last I checked, you will still be able to drink "at least 3" potions before each battle anyway. They are not completly cutting out all the pots and you will definatly be able to have more than 3 consumable buffs active. Most likely the very 3 buffs you brought up, flask of potency, wild storm elixir, and squash soup will remain in seperate categories and thus usable together.
And another thing, how leniant was the DM you had??? Drinking at least 3 potions before each battle was not the norm. It sounds to me like you had a lot of spare change compared to the average adventuring party or were finding a lot more potions as loot than most D&D groups.
That, and this is a terrible justification for keeping a broken system in place even if it was true.
Not all things in pin and paper D&D can be transfered to an online MMO and remain balanced.
Systems that make NW more like D&D are great flavor and in some cases, worth implementing, but if a certain aspect of D&D will harm NW, then it should not be implemented plain and simple.
I agree that the pot system only needs to be adjusted for PVP and if possible, the devs should make this change a PVP only thing.
However, I don't see any reason to cry if pots end up getting adjusted for PVE as well.
It would cut down on the expenses for PVE and PVP alike, its not like maintaining full pots or anything close to it is cheep after all. You have to constantly replace them and cutting down on how many you need means more money in your pocket.
I also agree that Cryptic has a lot of work to do and for way too long, they left so many bugs and other issues unfixed. But shooting down a huge step fowards like better pot limits just because "we have had it that way for a really long time" is regressive.
You cannot have all things you ever earned remain the same as they've allways been AND still fix a broken game.
Because many of the items that players have obtained are part of the problem, in order to have a healthyer game for everyone including you, people will need to give up some of their toys.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
It's meaningless in pve, pots other than wild storm elixir are barely used, even wild storm elixir i only see some top players using.
Just thinking of a TR drinking a potion for deflectseverity +10%, wich cut´s his incoming deflected damage nearly by 50%.
A high deflectbuild becomes invinceable by that. I met Tr´s in soloqueue with >80% deflectchance, simply broken.
Same as statboost +2(main)/+1, too much.
I think it needs a tone down.
I recently sold my consumable arsenal off for close to 1mil AD and that was just some of the pots that could be used together. What lowbie can afford that when they still have enchantments, mounts, gear, and other permanant things to pay for?
I agree on disabling mounts and boons in PVP or at the very least, reducing how much stats and other powers they give you in PVP by a ton. I wouldn't mind if all those items still gave you something as long as its small.
As for BIS players don't want competition, this may be the case for some of them but the vast majority of the time, they are bored out of their sculls by easy fights. A lot of BIS players have left NW over the years and a lot of times, the lack of competition and unbalanced PVP is why.
Much of the remaining BIS community is demotivated by the state NW PVP is in right now and only stay because they have freinds here.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
also the huge cost of them
there are pots now that are +2000 for a stat (up from 1500 on the chart) say +2000 more crit also used
and how does evening that playing field out insure no competition ... and why would players even want to insure no competition if they have invested so much time and effort ?
how does decreasing power gap by limiting potions give a greater advantage to level 20 guilds .....you say they have unfair advantages and want to keep them ? meanwhile the largest guilds are avocation the most balance changes and removal of power gap as you already know
All of these things are major sources of powercreep that disproportionally end up in the hands of BIS players rather than the rest of the playerbase.
Getting rid of these things in PVP is the complete opposite of attempting to maintain an unfair advantage.
It is in the BIS PVP community's best interest to "bring PVP back to life" and the majority are well aware of this.
BIS players tend to miss the old days, they miss their freinds that left, they miss the thriving PVP community this game once had, and they miss the competition. In short, they miss when this game's PVP was fun.
The only people standing in the way of that are a rare few.
Ironically even some of that rare few tend to be upset by the decay of this game but end up clinging to the very things poisoning it out of fear of change and because they are unwilling to give up some of their earnings after all the time they wasted going after them.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
"Bigger" PVP guilds surely were a plague for several mods in the past until they recognized that PVP is dead and needs balance, but it took them some time to get there tbh.
I widnessed those pug stomps in the past, noone is innocent, but at least they changed their mind since too many player left.
If those player want to get balance, they should consequently ask for things like:
1. SH boons
2. broken mount powers
3. insigniaboni
4. glyphs
5. boons in general
6. pots
7. and more
There are lots of issues with several classes, but before balancing a downgear is needed.
At the end of the day, the BIS players have tens of thousands more stats in PVP.
Potions are easily 30+ rank 12s.
Boons are another 30+ rank 12s.
Gear only represents less than HALF of your total stats from these sources. removing the excess pots will bring this down a bit...
its almost as if we need "boon suppression" in PVP LOL.
@trgluestickz you really nailed this post man.
the BEST thing this game could do right now is remove campaign boons and SH boons from PVP. Continue with the potion nerf as described in earlier comment. This removes tens of thousands of stats from PVP. Which makes it MUCH more competitive. Then focus on some class balance adjustments, maybe bring back an NCL even for 3 months or something. Etc.
Go into Dom-queue find a match, end up getting oneshotted by one TR or GF with maxed out stats.
My solution? Exit NWO. Hop on to the next game, spend my money, enjoy.
In the meantime I go on waiting for improvments and forget about those few player standing forgotten in Hotenow, showing each other their "lion".
> The way PVP is atm ? There is none.
> Go into Dom-queue find a match, end up getting oneshotted by one TR or GF with maxed out stats.
> My solution? Exit NWO. Hop on to the next game, spend my money, enjoy.
> In the meantime I go on waiting for improvments and forget about those few player standing forgotten in Hotenow, showing each other their "lion".
Get out there and grind like those players did young soldier!
Since there is no competition and no PVP, why should I grind old grandma
Honestly, maybe Cryptic should simply pay those player who spend so much time and money/AD to buy that broken toy.
At least we get over this endless discussion about if or if not there should be a healthy PVP.
Fact:
Gearmadness persists = no PVP
downgear = maybe some player will give it a try
Btw I have most of those toys myself like enchants, glyphs, axebeak etc. (no lion tbh) but I would simply put it in a shelf to give PVP a chance in this slowly dying game.
I witnessed so many player leaving the game and PVP , stating exactly what I tell you- no balance, too much gear, too broken setups/classes
At the center of the PVP issue is 1 problem: Gear Gap.
You cannot have a competitive PVP scene, that RETAINS PVP focused players with massive gear gap. This is why many many other MMORPGs have tried to modify their formula to allow all the gear inflation (aka power creep) into their PVE because that is what keeps players hooked, new carrots! But in the PVP world, they have tried to create a "stripped down" version of PVP, or atleast reduced the benefits of "power creep" in PVP so that even a brand new max level character can play SOME role in battles.
If PVP is to ever be healthy again, they are going to HAVE to find a way to reduce this gear gap, to allow newer players and veterans alike to all get to enjoy PVP. This obviously comes with both pros and cons. The advantages are we get an environment where much of the "power gap" is stripped away, the downside is that players who have that "power gap" have their power "stripped away". But we cannot have it both ways...
In the end, the only solution I can see is either removing all the boons and power creep each module has brought (like mount bonuses, insignias, etc.) OR severely diminishing the impact those things have in PVP (by creating a separate diminishing returns formula for PVP). They both have their downsides... but that is the only true hope for NW PVP.
Its really too bad there arent DEVs around today who where here back before any modules were released... Because their "formula" has significantly changed for the worse...
Back in the day, you would run all the PVE content and dungeons for the best gear which in turn was ALSO he best gear for PVP. If they go BACK to this model of gameplay... Then boons and all the power creep are still needed, as they help you get the best gear for PVP. So it doesnt remove the "desire" to still get those things.
That model would work.. and create healthier PVE and PVP at the same time. But it would cost players who "farmed" their boons and what not... They would be asked to give up their massive power advantage, and accept a much much smaller advantage to the point where skill would actually come into play in PVP. Many players are afraid of this, but I frankly would welcome it with open arms. No longer could people lose and hide behind excuses of "lion mount" or whatever else they want to blame, but others who DO hide behind those things (their gear advantage) will not like this as they will be forced to actually be GOOD at the game, rather than just have better gear.
By "naked" do you mean no gear at all?
OR
do you mean Naked to me we can use gear, just not boons/companions/mount bonuses/etc...
Because I would be in favor of the latter - a que that disables Campaign and SH boons from PVP... but would NOT be in favor of a totally "naked" PVP Que, that is just silly to me.
What you MIGHT want to use instead are things like "Vanilla" PVP (meaning plain as in no "flavor" or in this case no "boons")
Or maybe boon-less PVP. LOTS of other ways to describe it. When I read Naked PVP I think you actually mean "nobody gets armor or boons or mounts and we literally run around naked without gear".
> I AM looking for a logic answer why a cc to get diminshing return?
>
> Because some classes and powers ignore the CC diminishing return. Also, other powers and passives can bug and ignore certain "immunities" on PvP, making that some classes can perma control a target.
>
> as long as a tank can oneshot everything and run like a fox every discussion about balance this balance that is meaningless.
> buffs are also out of discussion when the balance meter is now GFs.
> In a world without gfs and with nerfed tr/hr, GWFs would be out of whack. While this might be true i would like to wait before.
> So lets bring few classes down to earth (primary GFs) and then lets talk about what can be nerfed.
> im ok with HRs changes (i play one) but not when a tank (GFs and to a certain degree OPs) can deal the damage they deal.
>
> FEEDBACK:
> tenacity has to go before mod 13 or mod 12/b
You're ok with your build but not ours? Gee, thanks. One of the coolest things about this game is that pretty much anyone can build the character they want to depending on thier wants and play style. Why would you want to mess that up for customers who have invested time and money into the build they have fun with? Furthermore, why do certain people here always want to nerf things instead of just bringing others up?
Give people the options to queue up for matches with certain elements turned off. No mounts/companions/boons/etc etc. Mix and match in any way you desire.
Personally, I feel the biggest issue for ages with PVP has been matchmaking. People can complain about potions, boons, this and that. But a lot of that is taken into the new IL so the matchmaking needs improvement. And if potions are altered for PVP than it should be a PVP only change. Far too many things in this game have changed because it broke either PVE or PVP and the change ends up worsening both experiences and alienating players on both sides.
The longer I've played NW the more I agree with the sentiment that they should pull PVP out of NW and let it be it's own game. Then changes in PVE dont affect PVP and vice versa.
What gwfs have:
Gwfs have a prone on the daily indominable strength and a knock back prone on Savage advance. Fls should not provide a prone because no class should have an encounter AOE prone (gfs and hrs have a single target). Gwfs have very high damage with self buffs (hidden daggers, destroyer class feature, destroyer capstone, battle fury etc.), Gwfs have extremely high mobility with infinite stamina via battle fury. Gwfs have extremely high survivability now with recent changes to piercing damage via lifesteal and high hp pools + endless consumption. Gwfs have cc immunity via unstoppable (except for cb which every dodgeless class in the game has a problem with now).
What gwfs don't have:
Gwfs don't have any good group utility or group buffs (battle fury buff is pathetic). A clear defined role in a PvP 5 man (other than sprinting between nodes and overall harassment). Reliable burst damage due to the way stacks work for damage increase. An effective Gap closer (charges on threatening rush need to go).
The only downside is that to get the class to perform for new players is that it takes a lot of gear, high level enchants, insignias, mounts, etc., whereas a gf is tanky out of the box and provides more utility due to class mechanics and the way that the shield mechanic works. The class does need a rework I agree, but it is definately not in such bad shape as those in this thread would have you believe. Now warlocks on the other hand.....
I wish our battle fury would buff our teammates for more then it does.
But there has always been a few good gwfs playing this game hasn't there been huh shooter. Even if we gwfs have always been subpar lol.